[00:09] btw, i set the vertical offset for the shadow because the light source is "from above" in our theme [00:15] time for bed [00:42] thanks for the tip ochosi, this feels a lot more Greybird: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7889923/ [00:42] Unit193: thoughts? [00:51] https://i.imgur.com/QIwZ84y.png Left: xfwm4 compositor, Right: compton [01:12] Er, I was supposed to respond. Uhhh, sure? [01:13] I thought you used compton, so thought I bounced it off you :) [01:13] Heh, nooope. I tried it a bit before trusty was released. [01:13] ah [01:13] :D [01:14] Installing. [01:15] (That's why it was hard to find some config for it, purged and deleted.) [01:15] got it [01:15] We'll see if this also fixes the xfwm4 glitches. [01:16] Wow, lag in Skype. [01:17] Hrm, it's actually when you minimize all windows, and pull one up again. Something to do with the desktop. [01:17] * bluesabre cannot test performance-related things, everything works well [01:20] https://github.com/chjj/compton/blob/master/src/compton.c#L5175 handy. [01:22] oh good, I hate cluttering $HOME [01:23] I dislike cluttering home and /etc/skel/ ;) [01:42] Reminds me, ToZ had a good point on .Xdefaults and xscreensaver.Dialog.borderWidth [01:44] I did? [01:44] this sounds familiar [01:44] have the link? [01:49] 02/#xubuntu-devel.2014-02-19.log.gz:20:53:12 < ToZ> should I create a bug report to suggest a cosmetic change to the xscreensaver unlock dialog (change is actually to /etc/skel/.Xdefaults from xubuntu-default-settings) to remove the white border? [01:49] 02/#xubuntu-devel.2014-02-19.log.gz:20:57:37 < ToZ> set "xscreensaver.Dialog.borderWidth: 0" - gets rid of the thick white border [01:50] ...and there it is. [01:58] :) [01:58] ToZ: I've use it, it is nicer. [01:58] s/I've/I/ [02:07] just tested, muuuuuch nicer [02:23] bluesabre done be on a roll. [02:24] :) [02:24] But, shouldn't you consult your visual aid? ;) [02:24] so I noticed that the Settings Menu appears above the other menus in whisker (hierarchy and all that) [02:25] so, wondering if I should add the Settings Manager launcher back and have the Settings menu in alphabetical order with the others [02:26] thoughts? Seems least invasive that way [02:26] and only a tiny bit repetitive for classic menu users [02:30] Putting Settings Manager then a seperator makes sense for the classic menu users though. [02:32] ok, think I've decided on a good setup [02:33] :) [02:33] Explain? [02:35] https://i.imgur.com/VAbLGmt.png [02:36] works well with both menus this way [02:37] Will have to get used to it, but makes logical sense. [02:38] somebody will complain, but ui freeze isn't until september ;) [02:40] It'd be great to get more feedback from people, but I'm +1 for this. [02:40] bluesabre: May be more than needed, but what do you think about before/after of whisker+classic and propose at the next meeting? [02:41] Well, next meeting is in a few hours, so fine by me :) [02:43] whisker: https://imgur.com/52N8SmP [02:52] added to agenda [02:58] time to go pick up wife/wait in car for an hour [02:58] be back tomorrow [03:02] Hahaha. :D Have fun. [03:20] bluesabre: While we're at it, could list other changes made at the meeting, but I won't be there. :P [07:07] bluesabre: some [info] for meeting [07:07] image testing is moribund [07:07] so is package testing [08:22] bluesabre, ochosi: Debian #756359 (Not for seeding, but nevertheless). [08:22] Debian bug 756359 in wnpp "RFP: compton-conf -- Qt configuration tool for X composite manager" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/756359 [09:43] hey folks, would you mind if we postpone the meeting 30mins? gotta take someone to the trainstation... [09:43] ok, fine by me [09:44] btw, we already have clutter in xubuntu, abiword pulls it [09:44] woot? [09:44] that's absurd... [09:44] :D [09:45] well "lucky" us i guess, we can use the parole clutter backend "for free" :p [09:45] but still, this seems just like another reason to get rid of abiword [09:45] Unit193: yeah, only requires the installation of gstreamer1.0-clutter, 111 kb [09:46] (or can it be built without clutter?) [09:46] woops [09:46] :) [09:46] pinging Unit193 is always a good idea [09:46] didn't mean to write that to Unit193, was going to send something else [09:46] :D [09:46] but forgot [09:46] :} [09:59] * skellat is ready for meeting [10:00] Wow right on the number [10:00] nice skellat [10:01] I think we might wait a few minutes for ochosi if that's ok? [10:01] Okay [10:01] It'll be probably my first meeting in 2014 to attend [10:05] congrats :) [10:09] have you experienced scroll lag+high cpu/xorg ? [10:10] I haven't noticed anything of the sort recently [10:10] Somewhat, but I think that was compton. [10:11] xubuntu 14.10? [10:12] bluesabre: so we can close bug 1349056 now? [10:12] bug 1349056 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager doesn't suspend on lid closed (regression)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1349056 [10:12] according to the last comment [10:13] or is some fixing needed? [10:14] I think so [10:14] That might need some fixing actually [10:15] ochosi, eric_the_idiot ^ [10:15] Although, I just tried it on my laptop and it gave me a black screen... [10:16] doubleplusgood, please see the "Other Info, #3" section of this bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1326740 [10:16] Ubuntu bug 1326740 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu Utopic) "[SRU] Please backport xfce4-power-manager 1.2.0-3ubuntu6 to trusty" [Critical,Fix released] [10:19] bluesabre: Fixed [10:20] bluesabre: Thanks [10:20] :) [10:23] Is there any development on xfwm's compositor? [10:25] not really, ali1234 was doing some experiments some months ago [10:26] !team | meeting in 4 minutes [10:26] meeting in 4 minutes: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193 [10:30] #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting [10:30] Meeting started Tue Jul 29 10:30:35 2014 UTC. The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [10:30] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [10:30] !team | Meeting time [10:30] Meeting time: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193 [10:30] So, who's here? [10:30] o/ [10:30] Here [10:31] * knome is lurking a bit [10:32] * bluesabre hasn't guided one of these meetings in a while [10:32] good luck ;) [10:32] you basically need #topic, #subtopic, #action and #info [10:32] yup [10:33] ochosi should be back shortly [10:33] #topic Open action items [10:35] #info xubuntu packageset has been updated with the packages we ship, so uploads should be simpler now [10:36] #info gstreamer1.0-clutter is the only additional package if we ship parole with a clutter backend [10:36] #info The "split theme package" bug may subside after the recent QA upload for shimmer-themes but catching duplicates has to be done manually. [10:36] any news/progress on getting the list of packageset packages to the wiki? [10:36] I think ochosi followed up on that one [10:38] oh wait, we did not make progress on that [10:38] :) [10:39] but I think ochosi did "bluesabre to set up a page on the ubuntu-wiki collecting apps that potentially need a pkexec profile and send an email to the list to get users to contribute to the list " [10:39] Which relates to the gksu issue [10:39] #action bluesabre to put list of xubuntu packageset packages on wiki [10:39] ACTION: bluesabre to put list of xubuntu packageset packages on wiki [10:41] #nick slickymaster [10:42] #info slickymaster wrote a draft for "things to do after a 12.04 to 14.04 upgrade" [10:45] I guess we can move on to updates now [10:46] #topic Team updates [10:47] sorry for being late [10:47] * ochosi took JPohlmann to the train [10:47] #info new packages in utopic: xfce4-power-manager, xfwm4 [10:47] hey ochosi [10:47] wb [10:47] ty, and hey everyone [10:48] #info From overwatch on bugs, there has been a small effort to try to treat design decisions as bugs and patch them away [10:48] #info Such bugs that have attempted to re-open design decision have been flagged as opinion for now [10:49] At least when I catch them [10:49] Thanks for that :) [10:49] #info xfwm4 tabwin needs small theme updates/tweaks, ochosi has local patches for that already [10:50] (things look okayish by default though) [10:50] yeah [10:51] question re: clutter [10:51] what other packages would be pulled in if we decided to get rid of abiword at some point? [10:51] What would we ditch abiword in favor of? [10:51] i mean: what packages would be pulled in/needed by parole other than gstreamer1.0-clutter [10:51] skellat: i guess nothing [10:52] skellat: but anyway, let's not go there *now*, i just wanna know in case ;) [10:52] Okay [10:52] let's talk about the abiword replacing later [10:52] (i mean, in this meeting..) [10:53] sure, why not [10:53] * skellat would run rdepends if he wasn't sitting at a Debian Jessie ARM box at the moment [10:53] yeah, we'll have plenty for Discussion today :) [10:53] bluesabre: hm, so would you happen to know or shall we investigate that later? (or are you investigating now? :D) [10:54] ochosi: looks like this, gstreamer1.0-clutter libclutter-1.0-0 libclutter-1.0-common libclutter-gtk-1.0-0 [10:54] possibly more [10:54] right [10:54] but I can send the current file listing in utopic to see what is *currently* installed [10:55] we can review that later [10:55] well i guess as long as we keep abiword it's a no-brainer to add the clutter backend [10:55] do we want to move to Announcements? [10:55] * bluesabre always feels like team updates and announcements are the same [10:56] yeah, i kinda agree [10:56] #topic Announcements [10:56] #info Xubuntu 14.04.1 released last week, good job everyone! [10:57] +1 [10:57] ochosi: are we participating in alpha2, or only betas this cycle? [10:57] iirc only betas [10:58] ok, thought so when I checked our calendar [10:58] anybody else have any announcements? [10:58] #info Xfce has made some progress towards new development releases that we will most likely want to pick for 14.10 [10:59] btw, how does that micro-release exception work exactly wrt that ^ ? [10:59] We've been picking them as they are released :) [10:59] with the MRE, not entirely sure [10:59] since big changes happen with dev releases [10:59] well i'm thinking 14.04 [10:59] and we are running on top of 4.11 in 14.04 [11:00] I assume the usual rules apply [11:00] yeah, that is true for a few of those releases... [11:00] with regard to interface freeze, etc [11:00] right, i guess i have to look up what MRE is about exactly at some point [11:00] yeah [11:00] discussion time? [11:01] +1 [11:01] #topic Discussion [11:01] #subtopic Default IRC client [11:01] I'm still not sure we have a clear direction with this yet [11:02] me neither [11:02] However, I did find yesterday that Mint switched from xchat to hexchat [11:02] i don't think we ever will, we just need to make a decision [11:02] what would you guys think of the following: [11:02] Mint does not equal *buntu [11:02] yeah, probably a vote [11:02] drop xchat for 14.10 [11:02] skellat: sure, but it means maintenance/attention usually [11:03] see what the feedback is like [11:03] yeah, somehow i'm all for experimenting a bit in the upcoming cycle [11:03] if the feedback is people want an IRC client, consider including xchat/hexchat for 15.04 [11:03] and point ppl to pidgin meanwhile [11:03] yep [11:03] that sounds good to me [11:04] +1 [11:04] yup, same here [11:04] as i've said in the ML, pidgin is a fairly good IRC client for people who IRC only occasionally [11:04] yeah, and it's a consequent move after getting rid of gthumb [11:04] yep [11:04] streamline [11:04] yup [11:05] #vote Drop xchat for Xubuntu 14.10 [11:05] Please vote on: Drop xchat for Xubuntu 14.10 [11:05] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [11:05] +1 [11:05] +1 received from ochosi [11:05] +1 [11:05] +1 received from bluesabre [11:05] +1 [11:05] +1 received from knome [11:05] +1 [11:05] +1 received from skellat [11:05] +1 [11:05] +1 received from doubleplusgood [11:05] nice [11:05] #endvote [11:05] Voting ended on: Drop xchat for Xubuntu 14.10 [11:05] Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [11:05] Motion carried [11:05] bluesabre, was that a team or public vote? [11:06] knome: good question, should have specified [11:06] each of the team members present voted in favor of [11:06] not that it seems to matter much, both XPL and XTL agreed [11:07] but with the current team size, we don't have a quorum ;) [11:07] We should go ahead and extend this to the ML [11:07] Back out the vote and throw it to CIVS? [11:07] bluesabre: we can extend it to the ml, but please add a timeout (1 week should do) [11:07] skellat, why would we want to use complex voting methods if we can do a simple vote on the mailing list? [11:08] ochosi: want to send that mail? [11:08] knome: Force of habit from LoCo Council so that we had a paper trail to back up what we did [11:08] An external paper trail, that is [11:09] bluesabre: hm, fine :) [11:09] #action ochosi to send mail to ML to vote for dropping xchat for 14.10 [11:09] ACTION: ochosi to send mail to ML to vote for dropping xchat for 14.10 [11:10] #subtopic Gksu/do [11:11] ochosi: did you get a chance to chat with ubuntu-devel folks on this? [11:11] i did [11:11] there were some comments about pkexec being superior and gksu being hackery [11:11] but tbh nothing too-convincing [11:12] the other thing is though that it doesn't seem hard to add support for pkexec [11:12] and i guess the list of apps that need it isn't overly long [11:12] (the hackery concerning e.g. how that pwd-dialog is done etc) [11:13] is there any reason not to move to pkexec (apart from the one-off workload) ? [11:14] well, actually we just fixed a bug wrt pkexec in xfce this weekend (https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9373) [11:14] bugzilla.xfce.org bug 9373 in General "double fork breaks desktop files containing pkexec" [Normal,Resolved: fixed] [11:14] at this point, we've carried 2 (or 3) releases without gksu [11:14] yeah, not too much of an outcry so far [11:15] you're not answering my question :P [11:15] :> [11:15] I see no reason to not move to pkexec, other than old habits (gksudo) die hard [11:15] +1 [11:15] right, then let's move into it [11:16] I don't see any reason to avoid the shift to pkexec other than we'll have a differing paradigm from other flavours in case people shift to us. [11:16] ok [11:16] if it's horrible, we can reassess that in 15.04 as well [11:16] well for the moment it means improving the status quo if we add policy file [11:16] s [11:16] so i'd go for this incremental improvement and see whether it helps [11:16] indeed [11:16] anything from the docs-side on this? [11:17] is gksu/do part of the docs? is pkexec mentioned at all? [11:17] I think gksu parts of the docs were removed, right? [11:17] there was some work done on it [11:18] since david is away, you can assign a work item for me to check our situation [11:19] #action knome to check docs side of including pkexec policy files in favor of gksu [11:19] ACTION: knome to check docs side of including pkexec policy files in favor of gksu [11:19] good? [11:19] yep [11:19] cool [11:19] #subtopic Xfce bug bounty program [11:20] #info ochosi has helped to set up a bug bounty programme on bountysource.com for Xfce [11:21] i think it would be good to support that by informing people [11:21] we can discuss whether we want to directly put some of our funds on bugreports a bit later [11:21] but the first step should be to put out a blog-post on x.org, g+, fb, twitter, well all the usual suspects basically [11:22] #action marketing team to support xfce's bug bounty programme by informing people on website and social media [11:22] ACTION: marketing team to support xfce's bug bounty programme by informing people on website and social media [11:22] would be very cool if i wouldn't be the only one doing it [11:22] #nick makreting [11:22] #nick marketing [11:22] cause i'm already handling a lot of that upstream at xfce [11:22] ochosi, be in touch with the marketing team (eg. me and pleia2) and talk about that, and things will get done [11:22] ok, ty [11:23] #subtopic Trello and Blueprints [11:23] "Discuss how to continue with Trello and blueprints and evaluate how things are going so far. Also: should the Trello board be public?" [11:24] So far, I think Trello works well. Makes it easy to find and keep up with task items [11:24] yup [11:24] i think it should be public though [11:25] i don't remember who brought that up earlier (maybe it was in bluesabre's application for upload-rights?) [11:25] Yeah, Scott Kitterman brought it up then [11:25] but i don't see any reason to keep this private, since bps are also public [11:25] Yeah, it should be public. [11:26] my concern is that when we are using trello, the blueprints aren't kept up-to-date [11:28] well i guess in the long run the question is whether to s/blueprints/trello/ [11:28] but yeah, we've had that problem of not up-to-date blueprints in previous cycles [11:28] and using trello "on the side" this cycle certainly hasn't contributed to mitigating that situation [11:28] I don't think I'd want to get rid of blueprints [11:29] yes, trello is okay, but then we shouldn't use blueprints at all [11:29] the pro for blueprints is that they are always up-to-date regarding bugs linked to them [11:29] and when they are linked to the status tracker, it's very easy to get an up-to-date overview of the progress [11:30] of course you need to keep the manually added work items in the blueprints up-to-date as well [11:30] but with trello, you have to keep the trello board updated [11:30] the work items, [11:30] the bugs [11:30] and in addition there are no good overview stats [11:31] One keeps us more firmly grounded within the Ubuntu ecosystem, one does not. Where do we stand is the question we have to consider in the end. [11:31] i don't think that's the core question [11:31] knome: yup, i agree. the best thing (imho) would be to improve launchpad :> [11:31] the core question is what works best with the team [11:32] i mean, many teams have stopped using blueprints already [11:32] but since that's not likely to happen, i guess we have to see what we can live with [11:32] i prefer the method we used for the reasons stated above [11:32] the sluggishness of launchpad is quite a downer, but yeah, it has all those pros that you mentioned [11:32] but i'm fine with trello [11:32] knome: True. How have our Kubuntu colleagues managed the use of Trello and the use of Launchpad? [11:33] skellat: they exclusively use trello [11:33] whatever we decide to do, we should make it clear for possible new members what and how we are using [11:33] and describe the process [11:33] knome: Agreed [11:34] so what's the evaluation on trello so far? [11:34] i personally like it [11:34] it's quite snappy an the overview it provides works well for me [11:34] it's less statistical than status.ubuntu thoug [11:34] h [11:35] It works well for having an overview of what everyone is doing without jumping between blueprints and bug reports [11:35] bluesabre, what about the overview page of the status page? [11:35] yeah, the jumping between blueprints is a bit annoying, because they're so slow in usage [11:35] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-flavor-xubuntu.html [11:35] I find that I don't know where most things are on launchpad [11:36] knome: for me, that one is a bit cluttered. i mean it's really comprehensive but too much [11:36] this is a super helpful page, but I would not know how to get here without your link [11:36] i partly agree [11:36] the simplicity is what i prefer there with trello [11:36] so yeah, as i said, i'd prefer to improve on the existing infrastructure actually [11:36] bluesabre, ehm, go to the main page: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/ and click the xubuntu link [11:37] links are obviously for T, because U hasn't been set up [11:37] that page also always has links to the blueprints [11:37] so you can access those easily as well [11:37] and there's that [11:38] setting up? that takes 5 minutes [11:38] right [11:38] but we haven't done it yet [11:38] if *that's* the reason what's keeping us from using launchpad, i'll promise to do that every cycle [11:39] bluesabre, well, yeah, because i didn't get any questions about it from ochosi until i asked him a few days ago whether we were going to set it up altogether [11:39] that's cool, but I think that's the problem with launchpad [11:39] what then? [11:40] things not setting up automatically? [11:40] too many links, too much content [11:40] was the trello board set up magically? [11:40] i kinda agree with bluesabre there, the learning curve for launchpad is really different from trello and the likes [11:40] i understand and can agree [11:40] Did i just miss a meeting or something? [11:40] it took me ages and lots of energy to slowly start using it [11:40] Noskcaj: we're still in the middle [11:41] but it's really a crap argument that "it's too hard to set it up, boo hoo" when it takes 5 minutes [11:41] I'm here for ~5 mins [11:41] right, that's not my argument [11:41] right, [11:41] now when the cycle was beginning [11:42] i was told we were going to use both trello and blueprints to see how they work and which works better [11:42] obviously i gathered that wrong, because we've mostly been using trello [11:42] * bluesabre just needs to collect all his bookmarks to navigate launchpad [11:42] I might be the only one with this issue :) [11:42] you don't need the bookmarks really [11:42] you only ned the main blueprint link [11:43] or the status.u.c link [11:43] (for the blueprint stuff, that is) [11:43] pad.lv truly helps too [11:43] i'm not saying people shouldn't have problems perceiving that. [11:43] skellat: what's that? [11:43] ochosi: The Launchpad-specific link shortener [11:44] but yeah, I agree that trello has been getting updated more frequently than the blueprints [11:44] and that is probably because its easier to use and everything is always in front of you [11:44] sure, that's mostly a fact [11:44] well the comparison is obviously flawed because the blueprints aren't set up the way they are supposed to [11:44] (i mean the less frequent updates) [11:45] and when we decided to use... well, "both", i asked whether people would be up for that [11:45] and everybody was like "sure!" [11:45] well, now we see it [11:45] we really can't use BOTH [11:45] yeah [11:45] knome: the only thing lacking in the bps is the link to status.ubuntu though, right? [11:45] if we aren't using blueprints, let's not even register them then. [11:45] ochosi, yeah, and people updating them [11:46] * skellat throws out the ridiculous suggestion of somebody building a bridge using launchpadlib between trello and lp [11:47] ochosi, i don't think you can do a fair comparison between the two during one cycle, because keeping them both up-to-date means almost double the work [11:47] ochosi, and people are always going to prefer either or [11:48] Do we want to continue this discussion a bit later to finish up the meeting? Or we can create some action items? I'll need to leave for work shortly [11:48] I need to bow out too [11:49] i don't think we're going to find a resolution with this group of people anyway [11:49] sounds sane [11:49] yeah [11:49] just wanted to raise my concerns [11:49] well personally i don't have that many blueprints anyway [11:49] so for me it's not so much work to keep both updated [11:49] ochosi, work item? [11:49]