[14:30] <robru> slangasek, https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/286
[15:01]  * slangasek waves
[15:02] <robru> #start meeting Foundations Team Meeting
[15:03] <slangasek> robru: '#startmeeting'
[15:03] <sil2100> o/
[15:03] <robru> #startmeeting Foundations Team Meeting
[15:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  7 15:03:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is robru. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:03] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:03]  * xnox o/
[15:03] <robru> #topic Lightning round
[15:03] <robru> ok who is actually here for the meeting?
[15:04] <cjwatson> o/
[15:04] <barry> o/
[15:04] <xnox> o/
[15:04]  * stgraber waves
[15:04] <bdmurray> \o
[15:04] <sil2100> We can always shuffle from the whole list and just skip people that are not around
[15:04] <robru> ok who has the whole list? ;-)
[15:04] <sil2100> Not super optimal, but it worked ;)
[15:04]  * sil2100 looks at slangasek 
[15:04] <xnox> and doko
[15:05] <slangasek> echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
[15:05] <slangasek> caribou sil2100 doko infinity jodh bhuey bdmurray mvo xnox slangasek cjwatson robru stgraber barry
[15:05] <slangasek> there :)
[15:05] <barry> win!
[15:05] <robru> slangasek, thanks, I need to make an alias for that ;-)
[15:05] <robru> i guess no caribou then, so sil2100 starts?
[15:06] <sil2100> One moment!
[15:06] <robru> sil2100, sil2100, sil2100, sil2100!! go go go!
[15:07] <sil2100> - Helping out with C++ debian packaging symbols handling
[15:07] <sil2100> - Landing team work, landing e-mails, landing coordination - standard stuff
[15:07] <sil2100> - Double trainguard shift on Monday
[15:07] <sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and features:
[15:07] <sil2100>   * More work on enabling for RTM
[15:07] <sil2100>   * Adding many workarounds to the RTM branch to enable working with both LP and DF at once (no code-hosting on DF)
[15:07] <sil2100>   * More testing of a complete landing to ubuntu-rtm
[15:07] <sil2100>   * Enabling copy2distro to temporarily support the testing preprod RTM features
[15:07] <sil2100>   * Work on the twin package upload checks better
[15:07] <sil2100>   * Switching to proper distro-based silo names (e.g. ubuntu-rtm/landing-001)
[15:07] <sil2100> - Packaging advice and support for some upstreams
[15:07] <sil2100> - Discussions related to RTM support in the CI Train
[15:07] <sil2100> - Discussions regarding beta testing readiness with QA
[15:07] <sil2100> - Discussions on QA rules for ubuntu-rtm
[15:07] <sil2100> - Announcing TRAINCON-0 due to the image situation
[15:07] <sil2100> - Dealing with TRAINCON-0: pushing upstreams, information flow, decision-making etc.
[15:07] <sil2100>   * Also helping out with some of the fixes for blockers
[15:07] <sil2100> - Started review of a ubuntu-keyboard branch
[15:07] <sil2100> - Many many other things that got lost in the chaos
[15:07] <sil2100> (done)
[15:08] <robru> doko, you're up
[15:08] <xnox> what's "copy2distro" ?
[15:08] <doko> not soo fast
[15:08] <doko> - three days of main merges
[15:08] <doko> - various Debian NMUs to be able to drop the delta
[15:08] <doko> - more pestering about component mismatches
[15:08] <doko> - MIR's
[15:08] <doko> - working on the aarch64 multilib toolchain
[15:08] <doko> - finally finished the openmpi transition (which was started in April ...)
[15:08] <doko> - more openjdk-6 / openjdk-7 patches, mentoring
[15:08] <doko> - packaging review of some third party software
[15:08] <doko> (done)
[15:09] <sil2100> xnox: it's the CI Train side that runs on snakefruit, that actually pushes the packages to the archive
[15:09] <cjwatson> xnox: from lp:cupstream2distro - it's the privileged component that CI Train talks to in order to copy stuff into Ubuntu
[15:09] <xnox> right. thanks.
[15:09] <cjwatson> I believe infinity and jodh are both off today
[15:10] <cjwatson> Is bhuey around?
[15:10] <robru> bhuey, around?
[15:10] <sil2100> Most of my knowledge about copy2distro actually comes from this week, never saw it before as this part was a bit archive-admin specific ;)
[15:10] <bdmurray> and I heard bhuey was out from slangasek
[15:10] <bdmurray> so I'll start
[15:10] <cjwatson> OK
[15:10] <bdmurray> requested saved .crash files from a retracer for manual retracing
[15:10] <bdmurray> research into armhf retracing failures on precise
[15:10] <bdmurray> reported gdb bug 1351018 regarding threads on precise
[15:10] <bdmurray> discovered an issue with the retracers trying to write CoreDump to the stacktrace column family (fixed in r507)
[15:10] <bdmurray> submitted RT to update retracers to r507
[15:10] <bdmurray> updated and tested daisy using counters for "rootfs build" and "device image"
[15:10] <bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy updated to r508 (counters for images)
[15:10] <bdmurray> verified new counters exist in DayBucketsCount
[15:10] <bdmurray> pushed errors updates to be able to query for rootfs_build_version and device_image_version using the API on errors
[15:10] <bdmurray> pinged webops about the retracers being stuck (lost cassandra connection on the 3rd)
[15:10] <bdmurray> debugging apport-retrace / gdb issue on retracers with armhf crashes (LP: #1351018)
[15:10] <bdmurray> reported apport bug 1352591 (sandbox libs not updated) source of bug gdb issue
[15:11] <bdmurray> reported apport bug 1352450 regarding apport-retrace options
[15:11] <bdmurray> pinged webops about updating ubuntu_assets_url to 492 (package version selection filtering)
[15:11] <bdmurray> updated daisy's submit.py code to only retry retracing crashes without third-party-packages
[15:11] <bdmurray> updated and tested creation of SystemImages column family in daisy (r511, r512)
[15:11] <bdmurray> confirmed that SystemImage column family exists and is populated
[15:11] <bdmurray> rewriting errors frontends to allow for selecction of rootfs build or device image
[15:11] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[15:11] <xnox> mvo is out.
[15:11] <xnox> me.
[15:12] <xnox> * split upstart package bug #1351306
[15:12] <xnox> * merge proposals to stabilise whoopsie ids on ubuntu-touch & more
[15:12] <xnox> * fixed bug #1326327
[15:12] <xnox> * fixed bug #1351295
[15:12] <xnox> * emailed outstanding systemd units (mostly cloud)
[15:12] <xnox> * looking into 12.04.5 picked up ubiquity issue:
[15:12] <xnox>   self.controller.get_string does not work at import time, hence this
[15:12] <xnox>   broke OEM installation on 2.1 QEMU which returns a too long
[15:12] <xnox>   autogenerated hostname.
[15:12] <xnox> * today mostly coordinating EOE & fixing other spotted ubiquity UX
[15:12] <xnox>   bugs
[15:12] <xnox> * Todo for tomorrow:
[15:12] <xnox>   lvm2 merge, btrfs-tools update, mdadm update, ubiquity UX, and then
[15:12] <xnox>   EOE. :`(
[15:12] <xnox> ..
[15:12] <robru> xnox, EOE but not EOL!
[15:12] <xnox> =) yeap End Of Employment
[15:13] <cjwatson> last team meeting!  good luck at the next gig ...
[15:13] <slangasek> indeed, good luck :)
[15:13] <slangasek> we'll have to have the good-bye drinks in Portland :P
[15:13] <slangasek>  * work to make sure all the packages on the phone have debugging symbols
[15:13] <xnox> =)
[15:13] <robru> slangasek, so I know you said you wouldn't be here for this meeting, but since you're here.... ;-)
[15:14] <slangasek>  * removed Qt4 from the phone
[15:14] <sil2100> ;)
[15:14] <slangasek>  * mid-cycle cloud sprint in Nuremberg
[15:14] <slangasek>   * demo of a transactionally-updated server image
[15:14] <slangasek>   * lots of good conversations around go, POWER, testing, image matrices, etc
[15:14] <slangasek>  * next week:
[15:14] <slangasek> robru: yeah, a meeting disappeared from my schedule at the last minute :)
[15:14] <slangasek>   * on vacation Mon-Thu
[15:14] <slangasek> (done)
[15:14] <cjwatson> Cloud sprint.  Lots of discussions, some highlights:
[15:14] <cjwatson>  - Worked around the sides of the ubuntu-core system-image build project.
[15:14] <cjwatson>  - Discussed some image consolidation possibilities.
[15:14] <cjwatson>  - Various things about containerising apps.
[15:14] <cjwatson>  - Helped to generate click store keys.
[15:14] <cjwatson>  - Taught Ben about Launchpad livefs image building so that he can move cloud images into that system.
[15:14] <cjwatson> Organised launchpad-buildd 125 deployment.  You now have more verbose build logs. \o/
[15:14] <cjwatson> Spent about a day fixing parted bug 1352252.
[15:14] <cjwatson> Fixed systemd dependency problem that broke a bunch of build-dep installation.
[15:14] <cjwatson> Released click 0.4.30.
[15:14] <cjwatson> ..
[15:14] <cjwatson> Even more RTM discussion.
[15:14] <cjwatson> Next week: on holiday Wed-(next)Mon.
[15:15] <xnox> cjwatson: \o/ cloud images on real livefs builders would be awesome
[15:15] <cjwatson> Yeah, it looks quite tractable and Ben's keen
[15:15] <xnox> and verbose build logs \o/
[15:15] <robru> * wrote graph definitions for NFSS data
[15:15] <robru>   - Long-Running-Test for Chris Gagnon
[15:15] <robru>   - memevent tests for Chris Lee
[15:15] <robru>   - fixed app-startup-benchmark for Max Brustkern
[15:15] <robru>   - which means NFSS will shortly have support for 4 data sets once this lands.
[15:15] <robru>   - landed massive refactoring that included Jasmine unit tests for NFSS code.
[15:15] <robru> * landings, landings, landings
[15:15] <robru> * various bugfixes and tweaks for citrain dashboard:
[15:16] <robru>   - stop displaying stale spreadsheet data when backend indicates silo is empty
[15:16] <robru>   - stop linkifying parentheses around URLs
[15:16] <robru>   - sort the SVG status bubbles by size
[15:16] <robru>   - when packages are in proposed, linkify them directly to the excuses permalink
[15:16] <robru> (done)
[15:17] <stgraber> Various RTM related discussions wrt system-image.
[15:17] <stgraber> Worked on getting a basic ubuntu-core system-image.
[15:17] <stgraber> Various LXC patches review and some fixes for the CI environment.
[15:17] <stgraber> Preparation and work on Ubuntu 12.04.5 LTS.
[15:17] <stgraber> (DONE)
[15:17] <barry> phone: s-i getprop test suite fix.  LP: #1349478.  system-image 2.3.2.  discussing additional improvements for various other mobile toys.  LP: #1324241
[15:17] <barry> other: looked a bit at LP: #1351018.  more dialer-app py3 ap merges.  reviewed xnox's lazr.authentication branch.  patch pilot.  pytest-instafail 0.2.0-2.  Python issue 21539 (Path.mkdirs() exist_ok argument).
[15:17] <barry> done
[15:18] <robru> yaaaay that's everybody
[15:18] <sil2100> \o/
[15:19] <xnox> oh. Who do i talk to to (a) make lazr.authentication project owned by lazr developers (b) make upstream release ?
[15:19] <xnox> ~leonardr registered it, but ~benji is listed as maintainer.
[15:19] <cjwatson> xnox: I'd suggest making it William's problem :)
[15:19] <xnox> cjwatson: =)))))))))))
[15:20] <cjwatson> We can probably track down people to reassign things to an appropriate current team
[15:20] <xnox> cjwatson: excellent.
[15:20] <cjwatson> inc. pypi
[15:20] <barry> xnox: i think i have perms on the pypi project
[15:20] <xnox> i feel like i want to finish the port up, so i'll ping wgrant/barry about things i don't have access to. =) sounds good.
[15:21] <barry> xnox: yep.  i can admin a ton of lazr.* stuff
[15:21] <robru> #topic Any Other Business
[15:22] <xnox> Thanks everyone, it was a blast =) my last meeting for a while ;-)
[15:22] <slangasek> does xnox get to tell us what he's working on?
[15:22] <robru> xnox, you'll be back!
[15:22] <xnox> robru: we'll see.
[15:22] <sil2100> xnox: :<
[15:23] <xnox> slangasek: which bits you'd want me to talk about? systemd? whoopsie ids? python port? rumors from the office?
[15:23] <slangasek> xnox: the last!
[15:23] <slangasek> or, I don't know
[15:23] <slangasek> the whoopsie ids? :)
[15:23] <xnox> slangasek: well, i emailed you brian and ev about whoopsie ids already =)
[15:24] <xnox> slangasek: so in the office there are approximately 20 or so small boxes with bq written on them. I don't have a big enough bag to carry them all, what should I do?
[15:24]  * xnox ponders about the post-room in the building.
[15:25] <slangasek> yes, but you haven't shared with the whole team about whoopsie ids
[15:25] <xnox> ok.
[15:25] <xnox> #topic Whoopsie IDs
[15:26] <xnox> So whoopsie when it generates crashes and submits them to error tracker uses a SHA512 hash of a "unique id" for a given machine.
[15:26] <xnox> Typically, we want to gather sets of errors comming from the same machine, but we don't really care how it's identified (hence the SHA512)
[15:27] <xnox> and we'd want to be able to track crashes from same machine across reinstalls.
[15:27] <xnox> for that we need to create unique ids. There are a few strategies implemented at the moment.
[15:27] <xnox> on i386/amd64 product_uuid is used.
[15:27] <xnox> however id generation is now a library which is used by other projects as well.
[15:28] <xnox> for example post-office service on ubuntu-touch uses those ids.
[15:28] <xnox> (post-office is something like push notifications to the devices I believe)
[15:28] <xnox> so product_uuid is ./sys/devices/virtual/dmi/id/product_uuid
[15:29] <xnox> do check yours to see what it's like =) on some of my hardware it's a generic 1234567890, but generally it's unique enough.
[15:29] <xnox> For virtual machines, one can pass --uuid flag to specify a product_uuid.
[15:29] <slangasek> mine says "44444444444444"
[15:30] <xnox> On armhf, product_uuid does not exist hence other bits of uniqueness are used - MAC address and IMEI (unique symcard modem id on GSM phones)
[15:30] <robru> mine looks mostly unique but it has a couple 'FFFF' clauses in it
[15:30] <xnox> slangasek: hm, we should probably black list it.
[15:30] <cjwatson> slangasek: chosen by fair dice roll
[15:30] <slangasek> :-)
[15:30] <xnox> =)))))))))))
[15:30] <stgraber> root@sateda:~# cat /sys/devices/virtual/dmi/id/product_uuid
[15:30] <stgraber> cat: /sys/devices/virtual/dmi/id/product_uuid: No such file or directory
[15:30] <xnox> .....
[15:31] <xnox> in cases where id cannot be determined whoopsie falls back through each one. However, one can also override the ID by supplying environment variable
[15:31] <cjwatson> Basically sensible on the systems I can readily get at
[15:31] <xnox> CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER
[15:32] <xnox> so all of above is good, however it's quite unstable ids through the lifetime of a single boot and/or other operating modes.
[15:32] <stgraber> (that system ithout product_uuid is nothing fancy, it's a 1U supermicro server I use here as a router, it's got all the other product_* files, just not _uuid)
[15:32] <slangasek> oh, see, it's a whitebox server, that's why
[15:32] <slangasek> it's not unique
[15:32] <xnox> For example: product_uuid is root owned file, thus regular userss for libwhoopsie cannot get the same id as whoopsie itself.
[15:33] <xnox> also, if network interfaces are added or removed, and/or ofono (GSM/modem provider) is started or stopped ----- the unique id changes again.
[15:33] <xnox> and lastly if CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER was used it's also unexposed to libwhoopsie users.
[15:33] <xnox> I've come up with a three step plan to address above issues in the context of rtm and ubuntu touch platform.
[15:34] <xnox> Firstly for the ubuntu-emulator, i've implemented generating uuid per instance at create time and passing --uuid option to qemu such that product_uuid exists on ubuntu-touch emulator i386
[15:35] <xnox> Secondly for ubuntu-touch armhf, I drop whoopsie.override to export and set CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER cause armhf doesn't have product_uuid
[15:35] <xnox> next, I propose changes to whoopsie to export a world readable /run/whoopsie-id with the ID it chose to use, with a matching change to libwhoopsie0 to read that "cache" file at top priority
[15:36] <xnox> this way all root and non-root users are aligned on the same machine id through the lifetime of boot, irrespective of ofono starting/stopping and networking interfaces changing on the fly.
[15:36] <slangasek> xnox: "export and set" - where does it get the value?
[15:37] <xnox> and lastly, in addition to checking product_uuid, I propose to also check for /sys/class/android_usb/android0/iSerial which is Android specific serial number present on most recent devices.
[15:37] <slangasek> xnox: oh - why in /run/whoopsie-id, instead of /var/lib so it doesn't have to write it each boot?
[15:38] <xnox> slangasek: so $ ubuntu-emulator create -> uses libuuid to create ~/.local/share/ubuntu-emulator/$NAME/.uuid & .whoopsie-id (sha512 hash of .uuid)
[15:38] <xnox> for i386 --uuid is passed from .uuid by ubuntu-emulator run.
[15:38] <slangasek> yep - but you said armhf doesn't have uuid, so how do you inject it there?
[15:39] <xnox> for armhf "env CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER=sha512-from-whoopsie-id" is written into /etc/init/whoopsie.override as passing it as a kernel cmdline arg looked very ugly.
[15:39] <slangasek> ah, so it's actually written by ubuntu-emulator into the filesystem
[15:39] <slangasek> gotcha
[15:39] <xnox> (so at create base image instance construction time)
[15:39] <slangasek> nice
[15:40] <slangasek> sounds pretty slick to me
[15:40] <xnox> slangasek: re: /var/lib vs /run/ -> I am undecided. With all of the above fixes I believe ids are stable across reinstalls and hence stable on each boot, hence it can live in /run. I am open to writting ot /var/lib as well.
[15:40] <xnox> which is similar to dbus/machine-id.
[15:41] <slangasek> xnox: /var/lib guarantees its presence before whoopsie has started, or if whoopsie fails to start on a reboot for some reason
[15:41] <xnox> slangasek: true. And e.g. installers could write that file out as well.
[15:41] <slangasek> could still be a race if you needed it on first boot, but, well, you don't have much opportunity to crash things on first boot
[15:41] <xnox> ..
[15:42] <slangasek> xnox: thanks for pulling this together
[15:42] <xnox> for an epilogue, I'd like to mention other machine IDs used on our systems.
[15:42] <slangasek> and I think it's useful to have this explained before you go, as I imagine we'll be using it for some time to come
[15:42] <slangasek> other machine IDs> uhoh :)
[15:42] <bdmurray> xnox: so will you switch the merge proposal to use /var/lib?
[15:42] <xnox> dbus uses /dev/urandom to essentially generate /var/lib/dbus/machine-id. All I know dbus system daemon does not start without it. But not much else about it.
[15:42] <xnox> bdmurray: yeap.
[15:43] <xnox> and there is a newish systemdish proposal for /etc/machine-id, which by default is generated by systemd first-boot system unit, and is /var/lib/dbus/machine-id compatible. In the future I can see it used more universally to identify "install id" (as it's persistant for a lifetime of a single installation)
[15:44] <xnox> and systemd also offers "boot-id" to identify an individual boot. (helpful to sort out logs/events as to wether they belong to current or subsequent boot, when e.g. time jitters as well)
[15:45] <xnox> /etc/machine-id is a bit broken at the moment as our livefs builders spit it out on disk image =) something to fix in the future.
[15:45] <xnox> And that's it.
[15:45] <xnox> More Q&A?!
[15:45] <bdmurray> xnox: why don't you use‽
[15:46] <xnox> bdmurray: а зачем? =)
[15:47] <xnox> oh, there is whoopsie preferences dbus interface through which one can query their id.
[15:47] <xnox> it's useful to browse your own crashes on errors.u.c when authenticated.
[15:48] <slangasek> would be good to have that on the commandline
[15:48] <xnox> dbus-send --system --print-reply --type=method_call --dest=com.ubuntu.WhoopsiePreferences /com/ubuntu/WhoopsiePreferences com.ubuntu.WhoopsiePreferences.GetIdentifier
[15:48] <slangasek> fwiw I'm hearing reports from ogra_ + ev that the errors.u.c interface may not actually work
[15:48] <xnox> slangasek: commandline just for you ^
[15:48] <bdmurray> won't that be the identifier in /var/lib?
[15:48] <slangasek> I don't want a commandline just for me
[15:48] <slangasek> I want a commandline for the rest of us
[15:48] <slangasek> ;)
[15:48] <slangasek> bdmurray: yes
[15:48] <xnox> bdmurray: once above is merged, it indeed will be =)
[15:48] <xnox> all of my branches are not merged yet. I'll be sheparding for them to be merged.
[15:49]  * slangasek nods
[15:49] <ogra_> the ID seems to be changed regulary on the device or some such
[15:49] <slangasek> which I believe means that you'll be nagging me after you've left the company and while I'm on vacation, if I'm not mistaken
[15:49] <ogra_> (someone pointed me to a bug, got to dig it up)
[15:49] <slangasek> ogra_: that part is known and is the bit we're already fixing
[15:49] <ogra_> ah, k
[15:49] <bdmurray> slangasek: hmm? it might not work because the system identifier has changed on the device
[15:49] <ogra_> well then it should just work, no ?
[15:49] <slangasek> ogra_: I thought you were asserting that crashes from a *current* run were not findable on errors.ubuntu.com.  If it's just the other thing, then yeah, it's well in hand
[15:49] <xnox> ogra_: well, i have 3 merge proposals to address whoopsie id stability as explained above =)
[15:50] <slangasek> awesomesauce
[15:50] <slangasek> ok, so, I need to run here
[15:50] <ogra_> slangasek, well, i didnt kill any apps, so i only referred to the crashes that i saw with .uploaded suffix
[15:50] <ogra_> for these i wasnt able to find anything
[15:50] <slangasek> ogra_: yes, so it's an open question whether they happened during the current boot or not
[15:50] <ogra_> right
[15:50] <slangasek> anyway - thanks for the meeting all
[15:51] <bdmurray> ogra_: did you check /var/log/upstart/whoopsie.log for the OOPS ID?
[15:51] <slangasek> keep up the great work
[15:51] <bdmurray> ogra_: then look up the corresponding oops?
[15:51] <slangasek> robru: don't forget to #endmeeting on your way out :)
[15:51] <robru> is it over? ;-)
[15:51] <xnox> dunno, do we have AOB people?
[15:52] <xnox> (.... before we jump)
[15:52] <ogra_> bdmurray, nope, i only checked the return value from the debus call
[15:52] <ogra_> *dbus
[15:52] <xnox> http://goo.gl/ncjXiY
[15:53] <xnox> ogra_: check that ofono is running; check id from the dbus call; stop ofono, check id again.
[15:53] <bdmurray> ogra_: so the unique identifier for the crash, the OOPS ID, gets storted in the whoopsie log file. from that oops page there will be a link to the problem bucekt
[15:53] <xnox> ogra_: i believe at the moment they will be different, but with my proposed patches it will stay the same.
[15:56] <ogra_> will chefck both (once i have the time ... meetings ... )
[15:57] <robru> #endmeeting
[15:57] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  7 15:57:57 2014 UTC.
[15:57] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-15.03.moin.txt
[15:58] <xnox> cheers o/
[15:58] <barry> thanks!
[15:58] <robru> xnox, best of luck!
[15:58] <sil2100> o/
[15:58] <xnox> Danke Schon =)
[17:03] <dholbach> hello hello
[17:03] <knome> ola
[17:03] <cub> Hi all
[17:03] <elfy> hi knome cub
[17:03] <dholbach> do we have anyone here from the Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio teams?
[17:04] <mhall119> hello
[17:04] <knome> yep
[17:04] <cub> <- Ubuntu Studio (though been away for quite some time)
[17:04] <zequence> Hi
[17:04] <zequence> <- Ubuntu Studio, as well
[17:05] <zequence> Just wrapping up ISO testing for 12.04.5
[17:05] <dholbach> all rightie...
[17:05] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[17:05] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  7 17:05:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:05] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:05] <dholbach> #chair elfy mhall119
[17:05] <meetingology> Current chairs: dholbach elfy mhall119
[17:05] <dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Xubuntu team
[17:05] <dholbach> knome, how's life? how's Xubuntu? how was the last release? :)
[17:06] <knome> life is good but busy, xubuntu is good even if i'm not leading anymore ;)
[17:06] <elfy> lol
[17:06] <knome> so yeah, as some of you might know, we have a new project lead since the 14.04 release
[17:07] <dholbach> knome, did you bring anyone else from the team? :)
[17:07] <knome> 14.04 was great, got a lot of long-planned stuff in
[17:07] <knome> well, elfy is kind of here...;)
[17:07] <mhall119> knome: who is the new lead?
[17:07] <knome> mhall119, Simon Steinbeiß (ochosi)
[17:07] <knome> i guess we could have announced that in the CC list
[17:07] <dholbach> ah, brilliant
[17:07] <knome> i can get him send a mail to the list.
[17:07] <mhall119> I recall seeing an announcement, just couldn't remember who
[17:08] <dholbach> sure, a quick intro should be nice :)
[17:08] <dholbach> elfy, so about the hats you're wearing today? :)
[17:08] <knome> yep, i'll pass on the message
[17:08] <elfy> dholbach: heh
[17:08] <dholbach> excellent
[17:08] <dholbach> do you feel you got everything done for the last release as you expected?
[17:08] <elfy> QA for xubuntu during the last cycle was awesome
[17:09] <knome> fwiw, from my point of view, everything is going well with simon leading, but there are maybe a few things here and there to pass on :)
[17:09] <dholbach> what do you feel could work even better? :)
[17:09] <knome> i'll be around, and we're documenting our process in the wiki, so pretty much *anybody* could take the leader hat in the future
[17:10] <dholbach> that's brilliant
[17:10] <dholbach> nothing better than having it all documented
[17:10] <knome> it's mostly that simon leads in a different way and some minor details just need to be iron out
[17:10] <knome> and he isn't on top of all the bureaucratic things he needs to handle
[17:10] <dholbach> ah ok, so nothing in terms of the xubuntu project itself?
[17:10] <knome> no, nothing is *wrong* :)
[17:10] <mhall119> elfy: knome: who is this dev cycle going?
[17:11] <mhall119> s/who/how/
[17:11] <knome> mhall119, you mean "how"? :)
[17:11] <knome> hehe, yeah
[17:11] <knome> a bit slow, as always after an LTS release
[17:11] <knome> we have a developer with uploader rights to the xubuntu package set now (Sean Davis aka bluesabre), so in that respect, we're much better!
[17:12] <knome> dholbach, thanks for the help on that btw :)
[17:12] <dholbach> anytime :)
[17:12] <dholbach> I hope other folks will follow Sean :)
[17:12] <elfy> so do I :)
[17:12] <knome> me too
[17:13] <dholbach> were you able to recruit some new folks as well in the last time?
[17:13] <knome> sean was also nominated the xubuntu technical lead, so some sustainability is expected
[17:13] <dholbach> wow, nice
[17:14] <knome> during the whole LTS cycle (2 years), we got some new contributors, but (i think) also were able to get other people commit more
[17:14] <knome> so while the numbers aren't up by dozens, the team feels more solid and has learned how to work together
[17:15] <elfy> knome: I'd agree with that :)
[17:15] <knome> i've no reason to expect a change in this movement.
[17:15] <mhall119> knome: Global Jam is coming up again in September, that might be an opportunity to get some people involved if xubuntu has any specific tasks that need to be done and can be done at that point in time
[17:16] <knome> mhall119, mmh, maybe... though as i said, things are relatively quiet this cycle
[17:16] <dholbach> elfy, you mentioned QA - did you make any changes to the processes there for things to turn awesome, or how would you describe what changed?
[17:16] <knome> it's summer, and everybody has given all they have to finalize the LTS release :)
[17:16] <elfy> dholbach: I think mostly it was having someone just tracking that and pushing it - constantly
[17:16] <elfy> I probably got a bit boring ;)
[17:17] <knome> yep, elfy has done fantastic job ;)
[17:17] <knome> it's unfortunately too easy to forget QA
[17:17] <elfy> dholbach: the best bit was "found and reported 50 bugs during the cycle, that is more than for Ubuntu Desktop, Kylin Desktop, Lubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Gnome and Common Desktop combined"
[17:17] <elfy> http://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-14-04-qa-recap/
[17:17] <elfy> I was really pleased with the response
[17:18] <knome> getting the ISO/package tests in good shape has helped a lot!
[17:18] <dholbach> wow, nice
[17:18] <knome> now we have something concrete we can point people at when they ask how they can help with xubuntu QA
[17:18] <elfy> yea - we did an awful lot of work getting the package tracker working
[17:18] <elfy> well worth it in the end
[17:18] <knome> definitely
[17:19] <elfy> we made a new LP team so that people just doing QA for us had a concrete route into the Xubuntu team
[17:19] <knome> i guess getting them done is just another sign that the team is wroking well together...
[17:19] <elfy> :)
[17:20] <knome> ^ yep, in addition to xubuntu-testers which is an open team which membership list isn't very accurate/up-to-date
[17:20] <dholbach> is there anything you took on for this cycle which might interest new contributors?
[17:20] <knome> even if xubuntu-qa doesn't come with any (technical) privilege/access, i think it's proven to be an important social team
[17:21] <dholbach> yeah
[17:21] <elfy> dholbach: it's mostly a cycle of consolidation and experimentation with apps I'd say
[17:21] <dholbach> what's going to change?
[17:21] <knome> and slowly continuing to improve stuff
[17:22] <knome> we're dropping xchat
[17:22] <knome> since it's unmaintained and all
[17:22] <dholbach> and replace it with what?
[17:22] <knome> nothing.
[17:23] <knome> we have pidgin for people who need to join IRC occasionally
[17:23] <dholbach> ok
[17:23] <dholbach> right
[17:23] <knome> and xubuntu.org/irc/
[17:23] <knome> which is also linked from our installation slideshow
[17:23] <knome> we want to see what kind of feedback we get with this experiment
[17:24] <dholbach> how is the feedback generally? how do people let you know about their experience? (apart from filing bugs ... :-))
[17:25] <elfy> we get people in the support channel and on the mailing lists, social media (which pleia2 looks after)
[17:25] <knome> dholbach, nothing specific has been planned yet, but we have active social media outlets, so probably at least the feedback from there
[17:25] <knome> i'd imagine we're going to talk about more applications to drop/change in the future, so let's see how this goes ;)
[17:26] <dholbach> yeah, that's always an interesting subject :)
[17:26] <elfy> :)
[17:27] <dholbach> is there anything you're concerned or worried about? anything the CC could help with?
[17:27] <knome> to sum it up, i think we're doing pretty good
[17:28] <knome> if there's something the CC thinks the xubuntu team can help with (like describing our processes or sth), you can always ask
[17:28] <dholbach> sure
[17:28] <dholbach> and the other way around :)
[17:29] <knome> yep
[17:29] <knome> #nick ochosi
[17:29] <dholbach> thanks a lot for your hard work - it's great to hear that you're all happy in the team and happy with the results of your work
[17:29] <dholbach> and thanks a bunch for making time today!
[17:29] <knome> #action ochosi to send an imtroducing mail to the CC list
[17:29] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to send an imtroducing mail to the CC list
[17:29] <dholbach> mhall119, elfy: any more questions?
[17:29] <knome> introducing, but whatever ;)
[17:29] <elfy> not from me dholbach
[17:29] <dholbach> elfy, I realise that last question was sort of assuming you were schizophrenic, but I thought it'd be polite to ask anyway ;-)
[17:30] <elfy> ha ha ha
[17:30] <mhall119> knome: elfy: you guys are doing a fantastic job, I love seeing the xubuntu project so energized
[17:30] <elfy> it feels good to be part of it mhall119 :)
[17:30] <dholbach> rock and roll! :)
[17:30] <dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Ubuntu Studio team
[17:31] <dholbach> hello cub, zequence and everyone else who made it here today :)
[17:31] <dholbach> how are you all doing? :)
[17:31] <knome> mhall119, thanks *bows*
[17:31] <elfy> hi zequence cub
[17:31] <zequence> Hi
[17:31] <cub> Hello
[17:32] <dholbach> how are things in the Ubuntu Studio project?
[17:32] <zequence> Stable, I would say :)
[17:33] <dholbach> so the last cycle was more about maintenance rather than developing new things?
[17:33] <dholbach> or could you maybe explain a bit?
[17:33] <zequence> Well, development hasn't always hit the releases
[17:34] <dholbach> meaning that some bits came in too late?
[17:35] <zequence> was having a bit of a slow connection there
[17:35] <zequence> ok, better
[17:35] <zequence> We are few, so naturally, things go slowly
[17:36] <zequence> And not all the work we do is for the actual ISO
[17:36] <zequence> I've been studying the process of developing an Ubuntu flavor, and done some documentation on that
[17:36] <dholbach> awesome - were you in touch with other flavour developers as well?
[17:37] <zequence> We get a lot of help from the Xubuntu guys
[17:37] <dholbach> that's great :)
[17:38] <zequence> Right now, I'm mostly working on rewriting ubuntustudio-controls, while keeping the boat afloat
[17:38] <zequence> Our desktop is to be fully synced with Xubuntus, just adding our multimedia packages on top of it, and in the future we will support the installation of more DEs
[17:38] <dholbach> wow
[17:39] <dholbach> this should make the maintenance a lot easier for you, I guess
[17:39] <zequence> I would say we are about 3 guys now who can do some packaging work, though we don't do much of it
[17:39] <zequence> None of us have much time, sadly
[17:40] <zequence> Yes, since we don't really worry too much about the desktop, it makes sense to not focus too much on that
[17:40] <cub> yes, that's a bit hard to get time, and with few people
[17:41] <dholbach> do you have a list of things you would like to do, if there were more packaging folks around?
[17:41] <zequence> I did get upload rights to the set of packages that we maintain, directly (not the package set)
[17:41] <zequence> I guess we don't really need to do a lot of packaging
[17:42] <zequence> We could however help shape the whole landscape of multimedia in some respects, audio especially
[17:42] <dholbach> ok, sorry... I read the above as if you have more packaging tasks than hands on deck :)
[17:43] <zequence> I'm sure there are plenty of bugs to fix, but we don't do a lot of testing
[17:43] <zequence> elfy has helped us a bit on that
[17:44] <elfy> or tried to at least :)
[17:44] <zequence> and, the plan is we get more people helping out with QA
[17:44] <elfy> early days
[17:45] <zequence> The big goal now is 16.04. I feel farily confident that we can achieve everything we want by then
[17:46] <dholbach> are there other things in the plans apart from making maintenance easier and add the ability to install different DEs?
[17:47] <zequence> We're working on freedesktop and debtag categories, to make it easier to find and sort applications
[17:47] <dholbach> nice
[17:48] <zequence> The way we achieve realtime privilege for jack needs to change, so that its the same way on all Debian derived
[17:48] <zequence> And, that will mean we need to sort it out in Debian as well
[17:48] <zequence> That would make audio production on other UBuntu flavors much less painful to set up
[17:49] <mhall119> have you spoken with the jack maintainer in debian?
[17:49] <zequence> mhall119: not for a while
[17:49] <zequence> It's been something I've been putting off for a long time, but I will absolutely have it done before 16.04
[17:50] <dholbach> is there a bug tracking this work or something?
[17:50] <zequence> Not directly. But, the issue with using audio group has been discussed
[17:51] <dholbach> ok
[17:51] <zequence> ubuntustudio-controls, when finished with all the features we have planned, would possibly become a preffered tool for audio newbies who want to use all the different audio servers that Debian derived has
[17:52] <zequence> A first version will only administer realtime, and I will soon be SRUing it to trusty
[17:52] <zequence> That will greatly simplify audio setup for newbies
[17:52] <zequence> (who don't use Ubuntu Studio, that is)
[17:53] <mhall119> zequence: will this work impact any other DEs or flavors?
[17:53] <dholbach> oh yeah, that sounds like it
[17:53] <zequence> mhall119: It will mostly be helpful on other flavors than Ubuntu Studio
[17:54] <zequence> On Ubuntu Studio, the first user is in audio group, and thus gets realtime
[17:54] <mhall119> zequence: but it won't break anything or cause them to need to change anything?
[17:54] <zequence> No
[17:54] <mhall119> ok
[17:54] <dholbach> are you in touch with ubuntu studio users? do you have meetings?
[17:55] <zequence> We haven'd had meeting for a long while. We don't have much user interaction, other than on our G+, fb, mail list, and so on
[17:55] <zequence> Would be great if we had someone who only did that part
[17:55] <zequence> I think I will want to do that, if we have more to offer, trying to shine a light on the distro
[17:56] <dholbach> mhall119, ^ are you thinking what I'm thinking?
[17:57] <dholbach> since we're doing these community q&a hangouts every week, I thought it might be a good idea to invite you folks to one, so you can show off some of the good work you've been doing
[17:57] <dholbach> and maybe give a list of things to think about and see if they'd be willing to help out in the team
[17:57] <cub> I have had hopes to get more involved in the community work, but time has been short.
[17:57] <dholbach> sure
[17:58] <cub> I had some contact with Jono before, but have not attended the Q&A for months
[17:58]  * dholbach nods
[17:58] <mhall119> dholbach: I think so brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?
[17:58] <elfy> zequence: cub I've unfortunately gtg - good to see you both, look forward to seeing what comes of it all
[17:58] <dholbach> mhall119, narf!
[17:58] <elfy> and keep in touch re QA :)
[17:59] <zequence> elfy: alright
[17:59] <mhall119> dholbach: do we have anybody for next week's Q&A?
[17:59] <dholbach> yeah, let's have a chat and see when we can get together and bring some ubuntu studio action to the airwaves
[17:59] <cub> just to add to the contact with users, there are some activity on the ubuntu forum as well
[17:59] <dholbach> mhall119, I don't know
[18:00] <mhall119> cub: who had access to the social media accounts/pages for ubuntu studio?
[18:00] <cub> Is that only you now zequence?
[18:00] <zequence> me, and a couple of other people.
[18:00] <zequence> madeinkobaia, so he can do the artwork himself
[18:00] <zequence> holstein, I think
[18:01] <mhall119> ok, as long as it's not just one person, that can often cause a bottleneck
[18:01] <zequence> I could give you the rights, cub
[18:01] <cub> sure
[18:01] <dholbach> awesome :-D
[18:01] <zequence> Oh, yeah, we had plans on doing youtube videos, tutorials on how to do different type of multimedia production
[18:02] <zequence> cub has been involved in that as well
[18:02] <dholbach> that sounds like a great people could get involved with
[18:02] <dholbach> sounds like there's no shortage of good ideas :)
[18:02] <cub> nope, mostly just time. :)
[18:02] <dholbach> that's all the questions I had - anyone else? mhall119, elfy?
[18:03] <mhall119> nothing else from me, but anything the CC or Community Team can do to help you promote your work we'll be happy to do
[18:03] <zequence> That's usually not the big problem :)
[18:05] <dholbach> ok
[18:05] <dholbach> thanks a lot making time
[18:05] <dholbach> and thanks for your hard work!
[18:05] <zequence> Thanks
[18:05] <dholbach> :)
[18:05] <dholbach> #topic Any other business?
[18:05] <dholbach> does anyone have any other business?
[18:06] <cub> thanks
[18:07] <dholbach> looks like that's it
[18:07] <dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
[18:07] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[18:07] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  7 18:07:21 2014 UTC.
[18:07] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-17.05.moin.txt
[20:35] <belkinsa> Woot!  The meetingology bot is back.
[20:37] <phillw> belkinsa: it better be, or it's reserve is used :)
[20:37] <belkinsa> Well, it was gone for some time from this channel.
[22:00] <belkinsa> #startmeeting Membership Board 22 UTC Meeting
[22:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  7 22:00:39 2014 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[22:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:00] <belkinsa> Who is all here for the Membership Board meeting
[22:01] <silverlion> o/
[22:01] <wxl> o/
[22:01] <belkinsa> #chair chilicuil
[22:01] <meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa chilicuil
[22:01] <belkinsa> Any of the members of the board and the other two applicants?
[22:02] <belkinsa> We will wait a few more minutes.
[22:03] <belkinsa> It seem that we will not have a quorum.
[22:03] <belkinsa> Well, I will end the meeting and hope for the next time.
[22:03] <belkinsa> Sorry everyone.
[22:04] <belkinsa> #endmeeting
[22:04] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  7 22:04:02 2014 UTC.
[22:04] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-22.00.moin.txt
[22:04] <wxl> noooo :(
[22:04] <belkinsa> Stay though.
[22:04] <belkinsa> I am waiting for a response from #ubuntu-rmb
[22:05] <belkinsa> chilicuil said that we will vote via ML.
[22:06] <PabloRubianes> so in a few days you will get the results
[22:06] <PabloRubianes> wxl: we will procede to vote your application by email
[22:06] <wxl> thank you PabloRubianes
[22:07] <belkinsa> silverlion ^^^
[22:07] <PabloRubianes> is there other applicant but wxl here?
[22:07] <chilicuil> PabloRubianes: don't forget silverlion
[22:07] <belkinsa> silverlion is.
[22:07] <PabloRubianes> ok sorry,,, the flu is killing me
[22:07] <wxl> so sorry to hear PabloRubianes
[22:07] <PabloRubianes> so you too will get the results soon
[22:07] <wxl> vote by email works for me
[22:07] <silverlion> one question if I may?
[22:08] <PabloRubianes> silverlion: yes
[22:08] <silverlion> PabloRubianes, from what I understood about the procedure of obtaining the membership here it was part of it to have the opportunity to speak in front of you folks
[22:09] <silverlion> I mean how do we aka the applicants do have a chance to interact with you to clearify things and answer questions if any?
[22:09] <PabloRubianes> silverlion: yes but as we did not get quorum to get the meeting we give you the oportunity to get the process via email
[22:10] <PabloRubianes> so you don't have to wait another month
[22:10] <belkinsa> PabloRubianes, does that mean that we can ask questions via e-mail to the applicant?
[22:10] <belkinsa> we = as in the board
[22:10] <chilicuil> silverlion: if any of the rmb members have questions they'll ask them by email, and you'll be able to answer them there
[22:10] <belkinsa> Ah, I see.
[22:10] <wxl> that's rather lovely actually
[22:10] <silverlion> kk thank you
[22:11] <PabloRubianes> belkinsa: yes
[22:11] <wxl> thanks all for being willing to work outside your regularly scheduled program :)
[22:11] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[22:11] <chilicuil> your best bet is to review yet another time your wiki so you can include as much information as possible =)
[22:11] <wxl> chilicuil: mine's already too long; don't tempt me. XD
[22:12] <silverlion> chilicuil, honestly I'd much rather convince you with my contributions than with my wiki which could be words only
[22:12] <silverlion> ;)
[22:13] <chilicuil> silverlion: I understand, I didn't meant to write a tesis but to make sure you include as much links as possible to your contributions ;)
[22:13] <wxl> ok thanks again folks
[22:13] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[22:13] <wxl> i'm going to depart
[22:13] <belkinsa> Sorry for this.
[22:13] <belkinsa> See ya wxl
[22:13] <wxl> really no worries belkinsa
[22:14] <wxl> considering my other RL responsibilities it's probably a good thing :)
[22:14] <wxl> \o
[22:14] <silverlion> lucky me that I am off-duty tomorrow
[22:14] <silverlion> chilicuil, you challenged me ;) challenge accepted :P
[22:14]  * belkinsa hides in the shadows