[00:00] question, I have a NAS that gets mounted at boot time, however sometimes its not ready at boot. Is there a way to automount it when the system tries to access it? [00:01] !autofs [00:01] Automount is the modern way to mount directories over a network. It is much easier to manage and more economic in bandwidth than static mounts via fstab. For more info - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Autofs [00:01] thanks [00:30] Patrickdk: do you have experience with autofs? I set it up but it fails when i start the service [00:31] or anyone else for that matter [00:31] :) [00:31] I haven't used it for like 4 years [00:31] but it just worked, never had issues with it [00:31] maybe im doing something wrong [00:32] i have a network share at 192.168.0.10/DSTCND that i want to mount in /mnt/DSTCND [00:33] last I looked, autofs doesn't do that [00:33] in auto.master i added: /mnt /etc/auto.DSTCND [00:33] but you just set a symlink [00:33] and in auto.DSTCND: DSTCND -fstype=cifs,rw,username=user,password=pass ://192.168.0.11/DSTCND [00:34] oh, cifs, no idea :) [00:34] i just wonder if the sintax is right [00:44] Hi, where can I submit a bug against the Ubuntu cloud images? [00:44] specifically, the vagrant ones still have the raring HWE stack [00:45] https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/vagrant/precise/current/ === peter is now known as Guest84802 [02:37] quick question -- what is the best way to find out when a specific package was updated via apt/dpkg? [03:13] help [03:13] geting fustrated [03:13] im not doing anything hard i just wanna be able to link just one folder and ALL of its contents to be accessed from the net [03:13] thats it [03:13] i just can't any futher [03:14] please [03:15] anyone [03:21] anyone? [03:21] help [03:37] quantibility: webserver? ftp server? sshd server? all these things can do it for you [03:37] ftp server [03:37] thats it [03:56] hey guys [03:56] I'm trying to open some port on my iptables but for some reasons it does really work [03:56] this the command I used: sudo iptables -A INPUT -p tcp --dport 1936 -j ACCEPT [03:57] do you get an error, or does 'sudo iptables -L' show it [04:20] dino822_: iptables shows it I can telnet to it [04:20] but I installed Red5 and it doesn't bind to the port I opened === Acilim_A is now known as Acilim === darkness is now known as Guest71601 === Acilim is now known as Acilim_A === CripperZ- is now known as cripperz === caitanya is now known as pokkoroidi === cripperz is now known as CripperZ- [08:27] Good morning. === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte === RoyK is now known as rOYk === rOYk is now known as RoyK === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [10:51] hi guys, i'm facing a very strange issue. I'm mounting a network share using cifs in fstab and it works, but when I try to do the same thing using the mount command (with the same options) I get access denied === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away [11:00] wligtenberg: I've updated bug 1354730 with how-to instructions [11:00] Launchpad bug 1354730 in grub-installer "14.04 grub-install failed: Wrong number of args: mapdevfs " [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1354730 === quix_ is now known as pdostal [11:17] @TJ- Do you want me to confirm if the patch works? I would have to reinstall the system again. I eventually went ahead with just one btrfs disk and then added the other and converted to raid1. But software installation is scripted with fabric. (and not done yet) [11:20] @TJ- I'll just try the patch :) [11:20] wligtenberg: I confirmed it myself in developing the fix [11:21] TJ- ok, in that case, I will just proceed with my install === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [12:36] hi guys.. what's the correct way to go about permissions? should I set permissions on a folder, or on all the files? if i want them to be readable by web users [12:41] zagaza the most importent is that the files arent write able [12:41] or better yet, I set permissions 755 on my web folder but still I in my browser I get You don't have permission to access /index.html on this server [12:41] who can read em is not importent only when they are run able scripts [12:41] configuration.php is a run able script that contains configuration data from your mysql host often for example [12:42] this file should not be read able public if something with the php cluster happens its enought when the php cluster can read it [12:43] zagaza: the directory/files need to be owned/accessible to the user ID of the web-server process, usually using "www-data" [12:43] but when you use mod php or suexec or anything else it depends on who shall read and execute the files permissions are always set right if you self can't read importent files via calling em over www [12:43] hey guys does someone has a good link to lock user in their home directories for sftp (openssh-server) on ubuntu 12.04 [12:43] ? [12:44] general folde rpermissions are 755 and file permissions are good with 0600 [12:44] guys thanks but that sounds incredibly advanced [12:44] SP33D yes, thats what I have [12:44] but 600 makes my files unreadable [12:44] zagaza: advanced? No, it is the default installation configuration of any web-server [12:44] then you got the files under the wrong owner for your setup [12:45] TJ help me a bit i whant to create ssh tunnels on a per use base or per host base [12:45] SP33D no really I have them under the owner they are intended to be [12:46] it worked when I changed permission to 666 for index.html though [12:47] zagaza join #apache for that [12:47] they will help you [12:47] TJ ssh -L 10175:localhost:80 [12:47] creates a tunnel from port 10* to 80 i am wondering if there is a method to do that on per host or per user [12:48] SP33D apache for what? I already got directed here from #ubuntu [12:48] it works when I changed file permission to 666, but is that safe though? [12:49] zagaza: As we already said, files served by a web-server should be owned by www-data user/group, or maybe use the mod_user module to server them out of /home/$USER/public_html/ [12:49] SP33D: I have no idea, I rarely use tunnels [12:50] TJ ok then i need to do it with my old shell concept :D [12:50] i create a user for ssh login and then restrict it to only do the one command ssh into real machine [12:52] SP33D: Last time I did anything like that I used the ssh_config ProxyCommand [12:53] SP33D: The user account on the SSH server in its authorized_keys, for the client, the line beginning with: "command="sleep 172800" ..." in order to prevent any other command being run effectively, since it delays for so long [12:54] i simply attach them to rbash [12:55] a restricted bash shell becaus i don't like this sleep method but thx for the nice proxy tip don't found it else where [12:55] and looks realy nice [12:56] but i don't need t o authorize on the targets becaus they are not reachable only from the host ssh [12:57] and if some one breaks the security on the host ssh then all os over becaus it run's the virtual machines where the client should ssh too so no extra security layer needed === Gu_______ is now known as omrib [12:57] rbash is just as good, its a means to an end [12:58] sure i know but it will stop him fro executing files if i set path to "" and he got no bin's in his dir and make his home dir notwrite able to him [12:58] then its over [12:58] without path and write access to his dir and rbash all is over for him [12:59] he can login butnot more [14:45] when I try to change my system hostname I keep getting this error sudo: unable to resolve host myhostname [14:49] chriys: Have you changed the hostname in /etc/hosts too? [14:52] that's I'm doing :p [14:53] I want to route strongswan ikev2 client connections to the internet, do I need to modify the updown script to add a 'iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 10.16.0.0/24 -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE [15:01] lordievader: I fixed that issue but here is another issue [15:01] my phpmyadmin can't connect to mysql [15:02] when I hit connect to log in it stops loading at halfway. And another app that is using mysql shows this error === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away [15:13] Hello, could somebody help me? [15:13] When I first log on to Ubuntu, I have internet for a few seconds, but then after that time I have no connection at all. === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte === psivaa is now known as psivaa__ === Acilim_A is now known as Acilim [15:52] hello anyone here? [15:52] i need urgent help, im kinda crying inside :( [15:53] !ask| gospod [15:53] gospod: Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience [15:56] I have this server: USB KEY: EFI+/boot, ISCSI: /root ------- with nothing changed in /etc/network/interfaces it works flawlessly for months, now I want to go KVM route and add br0 in /etc/network/interfaces. As soon as I add those lines to add br0, it doesnt boot (waiting for network configuration, booting without networking.... and it stops.) I tried multiple changes in /etc/network/interfaces but I'm no expert in any way to sa [15:56] I need br0 for qemu quests :-( [15:57] It is 100% something wrong in /etc/network/interfaces because as soon as I change it back to only "auto eth0; iface eth0 inet dhcp" it boots again. [15:58] that sounds like it will not be fun [15:58] your doing iscsi root? [15:58] yeah [15:58] I'm not sure you can move that interface to br0 [15:58] without messing it up [15:58] no? seriously? [15:58] dunno, but you would have to move it [15:58] and I can see that having serious issues [15:59] but I have never bothered to test it [15:59] as I don't run servers with iscsi root, only workstations [15:59] could something be done when installing ubuntu? [15:59] easy solution, use a second nic :) [15:59] it is not an option [15:59] it has nothing to do with installing ubuntu [15:59] really [15:59] use a iscsi nic [15:59] or a second nic [15:59] would be easy solutions [16:00] I realyl cannot [16:00] it must be done like this [16:00] few other servers waiting to do the same [16:01] i have few servers and all booting iscsi root. now I want to redo everything and go with virtualization [16:03] am I the only one on the planet doing this? :S cant find absolutely nothing on google... [16:04] most poeple doing vm's use 4 to 10 nics [16:04] so it's not a problem :) [16:04] using 1 nic, is insane [16:04] I understand that, but I have nothing network-heavy [16:04] 1 NIC is really more then enough [16:05] it's not even possible to put more NICs, no PCIE slots left [16:06] Using the same nic for network and iscsi traffic is the worst of all solutions. [16:06] dont think to go more NICs route, I really know thats a solution, but really it is not in my situation [16:06] it must be a software solution [16:07] on how to add a br0 with iscsi root === Acilim is now known as Acilim_A [16:10] could someone atleast point me where to search for clues? a link atleast? [16:11] one of possible solutions would also be how to start qemu with [16:11] I just did :) [16:11] physical connection to outside network [16:11] it's a problem, that your using the nic, then attempt to *redo it* [16:12] so to fix it, your going have lots of fun :) [16:12] the network command part [16:12] no [16:12] gospod: you dont need a bridge at all. [16:12] you need to learn about initramfs :) [16:12] hehe I need to learn ALOT of stuff :P [16:12] bekks: do you know the command line to do that in qemu without br0? [16:13] To do what in qemu? [16:14] so that the qemu VM has the outside IP (192.168.1.x) and not the regular 10.x.x.x [16:15] I'd just use virtualbox instead of qemu. [16:15] i need qemu because of vfio-passthrough [16:15] virtualbox does all kinds of bastard things with the networking [16:16] it's never worked correctly for me [16:16] please stay with qemu and bridging :-( [16:16] it works *ok* if you only use it for *normal* ipv4 only tcp stuff [16:16] Patrickdk: It works perfectly for me since years. [16:17] Using the official vbox packages, not the ubuntu stuff. [16:17] bekks: why have you said that I dont need a bridge at all and got me happy that we got a solution? :( [16:17] bekks, it has serious issues with ipv6 and when using wireless cards and multicast [16:17] instead of passing stuff through to the nic, it *converts* everything [16:18] so it only works with what it knows [16:18] you don't *need* a bridge, but a bridge is much simpler [16:18] you could just *route* everything [16:18] route? [16:19] you don't know anything about l3? [16:19] back to networking class! [16:21] give me a break please, im doing my best... I refuse to go to a networking class when all I need is 192.168.1.x in qemu without br0 :S [16:21] heh? [16:21] you are dealing with PURE networking issues [16:21] and you refuse to learn about it? [16:22] I understand its not possible *yet* what I'm doing [16:22] but in the near future Im possitive someones gonna develop what I would like to do :S [16:23] youre throwing bad light on a lower educated person like me at the moment and Im the one needing help [16:23] :\ [16:25] lower educated person? [16:25] you just said I refuse to go to a networking class [16:25] therefor I refuse to help you, I won't help someone that refuses to learn [16:25] and you don't get much more *uneducated* than me :) [16:26] as I personally haven't finished highschool yet :) [16:28] look, no offense to you, I clearly don't understand alot you're saying here and I'm pulling the information from you and others and deeply analyzing with my all brain cells and everything I need is a link to few lines I need to add to my 100+ lines .txt to do something I need and everything youre doing is running in circles around me so I dont get any help from you and others. [16:29] yes, there isn't really much I'm willing to do to explain it [16:29] the amount of knowledge you need to know, to solve this problem [16:29] is going take you weeks to gain [16:29] to read whole qemu documentation is insane in the situation I am at the moment [16:29] and I personally, don't care to spend a few hours writing a blog about how to do it, as I don't need to do it [16:29] even though there are maybe 10 lines at the most you refuse? [16:30] 10 lines at most? [16:30] you really think so? [16:30] I think that to bridge a qemu VM to physical networking should not take something like develop new ubuntu version, yes? [16:31] is that what your asking? [16:31] that is so NOT what you wanted === Aison is now known as Aison^kaputt [16:31] you wanted to bridge a qemu to a physical interface WITHOUT screwing up iscsi [16:32] :\ [16:33] gospod: You would have to create custom hook scripts that install into the initrd.img, and include the bridge-utils there, so you can have the script create the bridge in pre-mount, and assign an IP address to it. That has to kick off before the ISCSI scripts. Secondly, you *cannot* re-assign the primary IP of the bare-metal host to a VM when the bare-metal host uses that IP address to maintain a connection to the root file-system on the ISCSI target [16:33] iscsi root + br0 (need it because of qemu) = does not work because you said it isnt designed to go hand in hand. all I need br0 is because of qemu, if br0 is not needed to bridge a qemu guest, then a possible solution would be to bridge somehow differently [16:34] solution is to not BRIDGE at all [16:34] but if you don't even know how to route [16:34] that is the first thing you learn about in networking [16:35] this discussion is way too far along [16:36] just point me in the right command in qemu and i will assure i will study and make it till tommorow if thats the only way without developing scripts and doing something brutally out of my brain cells at the moment to do a simple thing [16:36] gospod: You only need bridging when all the VMs are required to be in the same bordcast domain. [16:37] s/bordcast/broadcast/ [16:37] TJ-: if you mean the outside network then yes [16:37] :s [16:37] gospod: No, I mean a Broadcast Domain [16:37] 192.168.1.x? [16:38] gospod: As Patrickdk has said, the best solution is to use layer 3 IP routing via netfilter rules set through iptables [16:42] TJ-: could you please post a few links to read? [16:43] gospod: I don't have any to hand; I do this kind of thing directly from what is in my head. === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away [16:47] so for a newbie like me, I got no help here... :\ [16:51] gospod: Support channels are for technical problems, not basic education (although that comes about indirectly at times). Everyone here is an unpaid volunteer who chooses to contribute to the open source community [16:53] we have told you all you needed to know, and more [16:53] the fact you want us to hold your hand, and drag you along, is repusive though [16:54] TJ- I understand all that technical problems + open source community, but is it easier to send a newbie (in your eyes) like me to desert then quickly help him and have peace of the day infront ? [16:54] is there something wrong with my hosts file http://pastebin.com/5FdxErmu [16:54] Patrickdk: i still do not understand where all these negatives are coming from [16:55] I told you where [16:56] it's personally offensive when someone says, I refuse to learn [16:56] gospod: You've been recommended to investigate routing instead of bridging... from that and other comments you should be able to use Internet searches to bring you to authoritative articles that meet your requirements. [16:56] chriys: It looks a bit strange that vietransformee points to localhost and vietransformee.org to some ip address. However I suppose it is fine. What is the problem? [16:57] my website goes down as soon as I try to access phpmyadmin [16:57] define, goes down? [16:58] and did you check your website logs? [16:58] phpmyadmin just loads halfway and can't connect and it doesn't show any error [16:58] most likely it's a php issue [16:58] chriys: Use the commandline mysql client ;) [16:58] lordievader: mysql command line works fine [16:59] chriys: So the issue lies with phpmyadmin or the server that supplies the page. [17:00] how much GB does ubuntu+kvm need to work flawlessly? 4GB enough? [17:01] 128megs :) [17:01] oh? you can install ubuntu in vm with just 128mb of memory? [17:01] lordievader: agree but I can't manage to identify the issue [17:02] i ment drive space and not RAM [17:02] chriys: Look at the web server logs, mainly the error logs. [17:02] gospod: 4Gb is a bit conservative, I usually use 8Gb as a start for my VMs. [17:05] lordievader: do you have an idea where phpmyadmin keeps it logs. In apache I haven't found anything related to phpmyadmin [17:07] chriys: Errors should still go to /var/log/apache2/error.log [17:10] yeah there's nothing showing up for phpmyadmin [17:18] chriys: Run tcpdump on the server? Analysing that will definetly give you an answer ;) [17:22] not likely an answer, but a pointer to one [17:23] Meh, a clue at least. [17:23] cd down [17:24] opps :) [17:25] hey guys. I am having an issue with nagios not sending emails as it should be. I can send test notifications and they deliver fine, however nagios is not sending notifications automatically. is anyone around that can help me figure out what is going on? [17:36] lordievader: it's getting worst now I get this NameVirtualHost *:80 has no VirtualHosts [17:36] when I restart apache [17:38] chriys: Have you made any recent changes to the Apache config? [17:42] yeah I'm trying to get them back [17:42] my main site is down for some reason [17:44] hello how do i increase the number of tcp connections that can be opened? net.ipv4.ip_conntrack_max seems to be deprecated [17:46] chriys: Apache fails to start since you ahve a config error ;) [17:46] have* [17:46] hmm, conntrack_max has nothing to do with how many tcp connections can be opened [17:47] I got this error NameVirtualHost *:80 has no VirtualHosts [17:49] Patrickdk: is there an error log I could look at to see if the tcp connection limit has been hit? /var/log/messages is not there in 14.04 [17:50] that will depend on the program that hit the limit [17:51] I'm using swift and if I have a couple clients connect to it I can not open ssh connections and it will stop accepting http requests. [17:51] pings however work [17:51] this gives me the impression that tcp connection limit has been hit [17:51] my open ssh connection works fine [17:52] and cpu, mem and load is not hitting any limits [17:52] are you running a firewall? [17:54] just fail2ban [17:54] fail2ban isn't a firewall [17:54] iptables [17:54] your using iptables by *hand*? [17:55] but there are no rules in there except for the ones fail2ban is creating [17:55] then it would be extreemly off your having a conntrack issue [17:55] odd [17:56] are you positive your not running out of cpu/memory or disk i/o? [18:00] guys I can't access my site anymore it shows this inside of logs File does not exist: /etc/apache2/htdocs [18:01] that is nice :) [18:01] so what did you do to cause that? cause ubuntu doesn't do anything like that [18:03] chriys: Did you upgrade apache to 2.4? [18:03] Without telling your config, that is. [18:05] nope [18:05] I don't think so [18:05] let me check it [18:05] chriys: Could you pastebin your config? === Aison^kaputt is now known as Aison [18:08] ok [18:09] do you know a command to copy the whole file [18:09] "cp oldname newname" [18:09] Or do you want to pastebin the entire file? [18:12] chriys: Install pastebinit, then it is a simple matter of pipeing to pastebinit. [18:12] ok [18:21] is it normal that nano /etc/apache2/apache2.con | pastebinit returns nothing ? [18:21] Yes- [18:21] Just use: pastebinit filename [18:23] lordievader: here is the config http://paste.ubuntu.com/8009978/ [18:25] chriys: Well the header is already different from mine, could you pastebin the output of "apt-cache policy apache2"? [18:26] chriys: Further more it seems to be okay. [18:30] ok let me do that [18:31] http://pastebin.com/uESJEhdB [18:33] Ah that explains it, you are still running 2.2 ;) [18:33] I don't think he is runnign ubuntu [18:33] he is running a kaltura image [18:33] kalwhat? [18:33] nvm, I'll google it :) [18:33] it's a video management software [18:34] chriys: http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/apache2-namevirtualhost-80-has-no-virtualhosts/ [18:34] they packaged ubuntu to make their own applience, killing *all ways ubuntu/debian* does things [18:35] That could explain the different config too ;) [18:35] I have one I manage, but I haven't touched it for almost 2 years :) [18:35] someone, attempted to bring centos to ubuntu :) [18:36] Bleg Centos... [18:37] Patrickdk: Their site looks down as well. [18:38] works fine here [18:38] corp.kaltura.com [18:41] lordievader: same issue [18:45] chriys: Do you know how much Kaltura changes the Apache config? [18:46] now the Virtual issue is resolved [18:47] but I think it's a good to put the kaltura and red5 server on a different vps === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [19:12] anyone around that can help me figure out why nagios is not generating alert emails? [19:26] anyone around that can help me figure out why nagios is not generating alert emails? [19:31] Any idea when it is possible to upgrade Ubunto Server from 12 LTS to 14 LTS using: [19:31] $ do-release-upgrade [19:31] Checking for a new Ubuntu release [19:31] No new release found [19:31] rumor has it that will be activated tomorrow [19:32] Nivex: Ahh, nice. [19:36] perhaps it is a permissions thing? [19:37] sudormrf: what do the logs say? [19:37] Nivex, the logs do not indicate any errors [19:38] Nivex, if I send a test notification using the force checkbox the notification is sent. [19:38] Nivex, I am looking at a different nagios setup now for the permissions that should be applied to the config files === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away === darkness is now known as Guest81558 [20:24] is anyone having trouble with upstarts in 14.04 vs 12.04? [20:24] I was fine with 12.04, but now programs are not starting on boot when I've added them properly. [20:25] nope [20:25] Patrickdk: I wonder what's wrong with my system. [20:25] Fresh install last week, used git to install sickbeard and sabnzbd, added them in etc/init.d, update-rc.d'd them, chmod +x'd them, but they still won't start on boot [20:26] well, if they are UPSTART [20:26] they don't go into /etc/init.d :) [20:27] what's the process for creating UPSTART processes? [20:27] you make one [20:27] and you put it into /etc/init [20:27] and I guess you link the dummy upstart script in /etc/init.d [20:28] and then remove the init.d script? [20:30] heh? [20:30] you said it was an upstart script [20:30] if it is, there is no init.d script [20:30] but you said 'link the dummy upstart script in /etc/init.d' [20:31] yes [20:31] so after I do that, I delete the one in init.d, right? [20:31] do what? [20:31] why would you link it, then delete it? [20:31] I said nothing about deleting [20:31] i know [20:31] I asked you about it. [20:31] if I didn't say it, don't do it [20:31] And I'm sensing the answer is no. [20:32] ln -s /lib/init/upstart-job /etc/init.d/xxxxxx [20:32] you're making it sound like upstart is the exact same thing as init.d [20:32] how? [20:32] OH! [20:32] upstart scripts go in /etc/init [20:32] i think I get it now. [20:33] so I just touch /etc/init/sabnzb.conf, and then ln-s /etc/init/sabnzb.conf /etc/init.d/sabnzbd [20:33] touch? [20:33] or vim [20:33] no [20:33] no [20:33] no [20:33] I didn't say anything about touching/ or linking /etc/init/x [20:34] put the upstart script in /etc/init [20:34] not TOUCH [20:34] then, ln -s /lib/init/upstart-job /etc/init.d/xxxxxx [20:34] where xxxxx is the name of the upstart script [20:34] is 'the upstart script' something I have to write myself? [20:34] yes [20:34] you said you did that [20:34] so where do i go to find out how to write that? [20:34] no i didn't [20:34] 15:27 fridaynext: what's the process for creating UPSTART processes? [20:35] Fresh install last week, used git to install sickbeard and sabnzbd, added them in etc/init.d, update-rc.d'd them, chmod +x'd them, but they still won't start on boot [20:35] but you said you had a problem with *upstart* [20:35] so like I said [20:35] what are these scripts you *added* [20:35] are they init.d scripts, or upstart scripts? [20:35] I added the scripts that came with the programs in the git folders. [20:36] like I said, WHAT ARE THEY [20:36] init.d or upstart? [20:36] here's the sickbeard one - http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1nBnuLCL [20:37] i don't know if that's upstart or init.d [20:37] that is init.d [20:37] or if there's even a difference between the two. [20:37] so my question is, this worked in 12.04. Does init.d no longer work in 14.04? [20:37] Because it's not working for me. [20:38] well, it's now system.d [20:38] it should work just fine though [20:39] clear [20:39] * fridaynext wrong screen [20:41] http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=F3KFDn3E [20:42] If that's my plex etc/init.d/ file, is it likely I should do the same thing for sab and sickbeard? (linking to /lib/init/upstart-job) [20:46] no, they aren't upstart scripts [20:46] so why would you link them? [20:48] Patrickdk: I'm asking you because I don't know. [20:49] your asking me, after I already told you they aren't upstart, so nothing we have discussed matters [20:50]