[00:39] <bluesabre> Unit193: poke
[00:39] <bluesabre> Can you bump http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~unit193/+junk/xfpm-pkging/view/head:/debian/changelog to 1.3.1?
[00:50] <Unit193> bluesabre: Sure thing!
[00:50] <bluesabre> Unit193: Thanks!
[00:56] <Unit193> Sorry I haven't done it sooner.
[01:04] <bluesabre> It's cool
[01:05] <bluesabre> Noticed today when I reported bugs to ochosi and was running an old version :)
[01:13] <Unit193> Also, thanks for fixing the policy kit name in x-d-s. :P
[01:22] <bluesabre> yeah, I'll push that out either tonight or in the morning
[01:24] <Unit193> Glad they're in /usr/share/ though.
[02:32] <Noskcaj-school> Unit193: Can you have a look at xfpm's new lxde plugin support? You've done more stuff with lubuntu than me, so hopefully you'll be able to get it to work. I've not been abke to get it to build (thinks lxde-panel isn't there)
[02:33] <Noskcaj-school> Also, is there anything that xubuntu needs work on ATM? I've got nothing till the upower shitstorm arrives
[02:43] <Unit193> Noskcaj-school: It won't "detect" lxpanel as there is no -dev package nor the required files in the main package.
[02:46] <Unit193> !find lxpanel.pc utopic
[02:46] <Unit193> !find lxpanel.h utopic
[02:46] <Unit193> man5/lxpanel.hints.5.gz doesn't quite count.
[03:12] <Unit193> catfish 1.2.1-1 uploaded by Sean Davis <smd.seandavis@gmail.com> (Closes: #758652) https://tracker.debian.org/catfish
[03:17] <Unit193> bluesabre: Might want to sync that, past DIF and nearly hitting FF.
[03:18] <Unit193> (And I'm sure the email from Debian FTP Masters indicated this same info. :D )
[04:12] <bluesabre> yup, I'll sync that in the morning ;)
[04:12] <bluesabre> and yeah, we'll want to enable the lxpanel plugin for the lubuntu folks
[04:13] <bluesabre> heading to bed now, bbl
[04:14] <Unit193> G'night, you being up late and all. :P
[06:08] <Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-indicator-plugin - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-panel dang hot spots...
[07:37] <ochosi> good morning
[07:37] <knome> hey ochosi 
[07:40] <ochosi> Unit193: yeah, indeed. sucks a bit that andrzejr has become so busy himself lately (since most of those bugs could be addressed by him)
[07:40] <Unit193> Mhmm.
[07:41] <ochosi> but frankly, that's really a big problem, that the bugtrackers are all so unmanaged and overflowing
[07:41] <ochosi> took me a really long time to get e.g. xfpm down to a reasonable amount
[07:41] <Unit193> The washer of brains does pretty good with them at times.
[07:41] <ochosi> (which wasn't surprising i guess, after two years of oblivion)
[07:42] <ochosi> mmh
[08:06] <ochosi> Unit193: so wrt -core, we just wait until cjwatson returns, then we can do wider testing on it?
[08:06] <Unit193> For the tasksel update, which is what we'd really like, yeah.
[08:06] <ochosi> i mean generally i don't see a huge problem in shipping that even if it's not very discoverable atm, it doesn't seem to break or inhibit anything else
[08:07] <Unit193> People should not be using `apt-get install xubuntu-core`, which is the obvious thing, though. :/
[08:07] <ochosi> well we can blog about that though
[08:07] <Unit193> And even worse, updates are going to suck. :P
[08:07] <ochosi> around the release
[08:07] <Unit193> Sure, OK.
[08:07] <ochosi> if you could draft some basic info on that, that'd be great
[08:08] <ochosi> (i'd start writing it from a pov where we assume tasksel has been updated)
[08:14] <ochosi> elfy: tried to debug your problem with xfpm not setting the blank timeout last night, couldn't reproduce it
[08:15] <ochosi> but then again, i wasn't using xfpm1.3.1 but git master (although i think we didn't touch anything blank-related there)
[08:20] <knome> mhall119, i've just approved your message and added you to the auto-approve list of xubuntu-devel
[08:23] <ochosi> elfy: fwiw, i can't reproduce that issue on neither trusty nor utopic. it always sets the blank time just fine
[08:24] <ochosi> elfy: one thing you can do is pull the slider back and forth to see whether that updates the setting in X11
[09:15] <ochosi> elfy: it's possible that you still have a desktop file setting the blank timeout left from light-locker-settings (the file ~/.config/autostart/screensaver-settings.desktop is obsolete with xfpm>=1.3.1)
[09:26] <brainwash> the user needs to remove or uncheck it manually?
[09:26] <brainwash> should be added to the release notes then
[09:50] <ochosi> nah
[09:51] <ochosi> lls has been updated meanwhile
[09:51] <ochosi> this is only an issue for ppl who have been running utopic for a while already
[09:51] <ochosi> (actually starting up lls once will remove that file from autostart too, so it's not a huge issue for upgraders either)
[09:52] <brainwash> nice
[10:09] <ochosi> yeah, bluesabre has done a really nice job on lls
[10:09] <ochosi> so yeah, if you wanna backport xfpm1.4 to trusty, lls should also be backported
[10:10] <bluesabre> <3
[10:10] <ochosi> plus the icons
[10:10] <bluesabre> morning all
[10:10] <ochosi> bluesabre: i'll try to translate the rest of the appdata files for catfish today (or now, depending on when you're going to release)
[10:10] <ochosi> and good morning to you too :)
[10:10] <bluesabre> no hurry
[10:11] <bluesabre> pushed the release out last night since it was dead for debian
[10:11] <ochosi> the UI is fully translated already though
[10:11] <ochosi> oh, i see
[10:11] <bluesabre> and because FF is tomorrow
[10:12] <ochosi> sure
[10:12] <ochosi> the xfpm release would happen in about 6hrs or so
[10:12] <ochosi> hope that's not too late
[10:12] <bluesabre> oh nice
[10:12] <ochosi> well, and if it is, we can file a FFe
[10:13] <bluesabre> and this release includes..?
[10:14] <ochosi> dropping of >100 icons in three sizes, small bugfixes, rename of the panel plugin
[10:14] <ochosi> the only feature is the dropping of the icons actually
[10:15] <ochosi> and more translations obviously
[10:16] <ochosi> hm, reminds me i still have to draw a notification icon for our theme for keyboard-brightness
[10:16] <bluesabre> ah, right
[10:16] <ochosi> might do that now, maybe you have time to quickly test it
[10:16] <bluesabre> so, another update for x-d-s too then for the plugin rename
[10:16] <ochosi> or you can also do that tomorrow
[10:16] <ochosi> yeah
[10:28] <ochosi> bluesabre: anything i can help you with adhoc right now?
[10:29] <bluesabre> hm
[10:30] <bluesabre> not really, unless you want to go through and add translations to our various apps
[10:31] <ochosi> just forwarded the italian translations to some guys on g+
[10:31] <ochosi> right, well i can take a few mins for that, if you want
[10:31] <ochosi> links?
[10:31] <bluesabre> https://translations.launchpad.net/light-locker-settings
[10:32] <slickymasterWork> hey, I thought I already had translated light-locker bluesabre ?!
[10:32] <slickymasterWork> still 3 strings missing :P
[10:33] <bluesabre> :)
[10:33] <bluesabre> we did a new release a few days ago
[10:34] <bluesabre> I'll have a mugshot update tonight, so ignore that one for now
[10:34] <ochosi> hum, did a few strings for lls
[10:34] <ochosi> (in italian)
[10:34] <slickymasterWork> ok, I'll go and finish light-locker, for now
[10:35] <bluesabre> thanks guys
[10:35] <bluesabre> also, good job here: https://translations.launchpad.net/gtk-theme-config
[10:35] <bluesabre> will do translation releases for trusty too this weekend
[10:36] <bluesabre> https://translations.launchpad.net/menulibre
[10:36] <bluesabre> https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings
[10:37] <brainwash> ochosi: ok, no need to backport xfpm, but what about xfdesktop 4.11.7 from utopic? can it be easily sru'd (micro release) or backported?
[10:38] <slickymasterWork> consider those done, by the end of the day bluesabre ;)
[10:38] <slickymasterWork> at leats in pt
[10:38] <bluesabre> great, thanks!
[10:39] <slickymasterWork> np
[10:40] <ochosi> bluesabre: ok, done with german, and improved things a bit in italian
[10:40] <bluesabre> brainwash: unless there is some feature or user-facing change, then yeah, could be sru'd to trusty with micro release
[10:41] <ochosi> (despite all the annoying timeouts)
[10:41] <bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, translations.launchpad is super bad for timeouts
[10:41] <ochosi> bluesabre: not sure marking "128px" etc as translateable makes much sense...
[10:41] <ochosi> (in menulibre)
[10:42] <bluesabre> I'm sure it benefits some languages ;)
[10:42] <ochosi> okeydokey ;)
[10:45] <slickymasterWork> https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings -> done
[10:51] <slickymasterWork> https://translations.launchpad.net/light-locker-settings -> done~
[11:02] <brainwash> elfy: want to register a blueprint page for xubuntu 14.04.2?
[11:24] <ochosi> Unit193: cjwatson is around
[11:25] <Aurvandill> hello
[11:26] <ochosi> !hi
[11:41] <elfy> ochosi: so that's an mmm then @10: 15 "elfy: it's possible that you still have a desktop file setting the blank timeout..." and then @ :51 "actually starting up lls once will remove that file from autostart to" not for me it didn't - I'd been into lls after I found it was still wrong, file still existed
[12:05] <ochosi> elfy: right, i think bluesabre hasn't released/uploaded that version of lls yet
[12:06] <ochosi> so removing that file fixed it?
[12:15] <elfy> it would appear to have - screen is still up 40 minutes later :)
[12:23] <elfy> I'll see when I get back from work 
[12:29] <ochosi> elfy: well, 40mins is actually a long enough period to be sure ;)
[12:29] <ochosi> thanks for testing that agai
[12:29] <ochosi> n
[12:30] <elfy> ochosi: yea - couldn't remember exactly when I did something - it'll definitely be sure later
[12:34] <ochosi> bluesabre: fwiw, improving the icons in xfwm4's tabwin won't be so easy, potentially means introducing a libwnck depend (which wouldn't be that bad though)
[16:10] <elfy> ochosi: yea, all fine here without that .desktop file hassling me :)
[16:10] <ochosi> cool
[16:11] <ochosi> so nothing we have to worry about for 14.10
[16:14] <elfy> I'll try not to find anything else :p
[16:22] <brainwash> ochosi: should the sound indicator open pavucontrol for the normal Xfce session? it only works for the xubuntu session as of now
[16:22] <brainwash> bug 1359249
[16:23] <ochosi> brainwash: not sure, it's a single line that controls that though, so it should be easy to find out
[16:24] <brainwash> trying to find the original bug report for xubuntu
[16:24] <ochosi> original?
[16:25] <brainwash> the report which requested the change for the xubuntu session
[16:28] <ochosi> why is that needed?
[16:31] <ochosi> brainwash: added a comment
[16:32] <brainwash> ochosi: ah, thanks :)
[16:33]  * elfy assumes it's the same in unicorn
[16:34] <ochosi> ofc
[16:34] <ochosi> i just linked to the 14.04 code cause the bug is for 14.904
[16:34] <ochosi> 14.04
[18:26] <Unit193> bluesabre: Will you be around today?  Before midnight UTC?
[18:38] <ali1234> i just found the "make it look like" menu in gmusicbrowser... that's the best thing ever
[18:38] <elfy> the best thing ever would be "make it not work like gmusicbrowser" :p
[18:39] <ElderDryas> I still want it to look (and act) like Pandora :)
[18:40] <ali1234> i havent' attempted to actually listen to music with it yet
[18:41] <ali1234> i appear to have somehow made it "look like" a player with no buttons or menus, and now i can't fix it
[18:42] <ochosi> haha
[18:42] <ochosi> you can easily close gmb and then edit the gmbrc file in ~/.config/gmusicbrowser
[18:42] <ElderDryas> or throw it away and start over
[18:43] <ochosi> "Layout: Shimmer Desktop"
[18:43] <ali1234> well it looks like rhythmbox, but it doesn't *work* like rhythmbox
[18:43] <ali1234> search is broken, track sorting is broken...
[18:43] <ali1234> why are we shipping this?
[18:44] <elfy> rhythmbox compact perhaps - there's not buttons there :)
[18:44] <ali1234> yeah that was the one that killed it for me
[18:44] <elfy> because knome thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread I think
[18:44] <ali1234> in fact with that layout the actual layout seems to randomly change each time you restart it
[18:45] <ochosi> ali1234: feel free to do an app-comparison an suggest alternatives
[18:45] <ali1234> rhythmbox is really the only sensible alternative
[18:45] <ali1234> banshee is okay but it needs mono, the users will burn us if we make that a dependency
[18:46] <ochosi> why would rhythmbox be the only sensible alternative? (other than you liking it)
[18:46] <ali1234> because it's the only good gtk music player
[18:46] <ochosi> anyway, app comparisons work fine
[18:46] <ali1234> i literally can't think of any others
[18:46] <ochosi> expand your horizon? :)
[18:47] <ali1234> exaile maybe? never tried it
[18:48]  * elfy uses gmb twice a cycle 
[18:50]  * ElderDryas has found that the $playofchoice usually boils down to the ONE thing that it does (better) that others don't.
[18:50] <elfy> we could always not seed it at all - like irc - we seed parole which suffices
[18:50] <elfy> ElderDryas: yea - agreed
[18:50] <SkippersBoss> evening all
[18:50] <elfy> hi SkippersBoss 
[18:50] <SkippersBoss> Long time no see
[18:51] <SkippersBoss> have we landed in a music player war
[18:51] <elfy> not really :)
[18:52] <ali1234> i know music services are all in the cloud now but i think we still need a music library manager
[18:52]  * SkippersBoss thinks the best player is the one I want to use every day. Sadly other have a different view
[18:52] <elfy> mine aren't ali1234 
[18:52] <SkippersBoss> that' ok
[18:52] <ali1234> i don't listen to local music that much these days, it's all youtube, soundcloud, spotify and internet radio stations
[18:52] <brainwash> let's just ship a browser, that's all you need :)
[18:53]  * elfy uses clementine - and has for a long time 
[18:53] <SkippersBoss> ali1234,  and that defines what your music player must do
[18:53] <ali1234> i still have a local library though
[18:54]  * SkippersBoss likes clementine but has moved on to guayadeque
[18:54] <SkippersBoss> Just my preference. 
[18:54] <elfy> tried that for a while
[18:54] <SkippersBoss> Choice is what matters here
[18:55] <elfy> yep
[18:55] <ali1234> i like the two-pane search interface style, i think it's the easiest to understand
[18:56] <ali1234> i don't like making playlists, that's too much work
[18:57] <SkippersBoss> And you are entitled to your choice.. However others have different requirements.. There is no one program that does it all for every one. That's why there is choice.
[18:58] <ali1234> we have to pick something though
[18:58] <SkippersBoss> I personally like tagging
[18:58] <ali1234> putting the most complicated kitchen sink app onto the default install is not a good idea
[18:58] <SkippersBoss> True
[18:59] <SkippersBoss> But I  have dropped in the middle of a ongong argument. Why are we dropping gmusicbrowser
[19:00] <ali1234> have you tried to use it?
[19:00] <SkippersBoss> The simple choice
[19:00] <ali1234> it's not simple at all
[19:00] <ali1234> it's trying to be configurable like all those amarok-inspired players, but it's really buggy
[19:00] <SkippersBoss> I am not into skins
[19:01] <elfy> ali1234: perhaps we should ship it with less layout options 
[19:01] <elfy> SkippersBoss: these aren't skins so much as different layouts
[19:01] <SkippersBoss> my bad
[19:02] <SkippersBoss> I favor the keep it simple approach
[19:02] <Unit193> elfy: "because knome thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread I think" and ochosi.
[19:03] <knome> elfy, i agree it's fair to say you could compare dropping xchat to dropping gmb. that being said, i'm ok to drop gmb, but then i'm also not sure if we are actually dropping something too "essential"
[19:03] <elfy> possibly - never really discussed it with ochosi 
[19:03] <elfy> Unit193: ^^
[19:04] <knome> (i'm also ok with another media player choice, but as it stands, we've cycled through many as our defaults)
[19:04] <elfy> knome: I'm really not that bothered - I dislike gmb intensely as you know, but that's not a reason to drop it :)
[19:04] <elfy> I just don't use it 
[19:04] <knome> yep
[19:04] <knome> fwiw,
[19:04] <ali1234> i normally just install rhythmbox
[19:04] <ali1234> never tried gmb before today
[19:05] <knome> i really think we should consider dropping abiword, gnumeric and gimp before 16.04..
[19:05] <SkippersBoss> You could just mention others in the faq
[19:05] <Unit193> elfy: Grid, you, me, etc.
[19:05] <SkippersBoss> in favour of ??
[19:05] <Unit193> knome: I'd understand the first two, but would like to keep gimp.
[19:05] <knome> in favour of nothing.
[19:05] <SkippersBoss> You want to drop Gimp?
[19:05] <knome> i think gimp is the worst offender, it's really big and most of our users do not really need most of the features.
[19:06] <ali1234> i don't really see any need for gimp in the default install
[19:06] <ali1234> if you know what it is, you know how to install it
[19:06] <ochosi> one of the reasons for adopting gmusicbrowser was that i was contributing to the project
[19:06] <SkippersBoss> I take it Pleia isn't around ?
[19:06] <knome> it's like installing a garage to store a tin of paint
[19:06] <elfy> SkippersBoss: it only came back since we got too big for a cd iirc
[19:06] <pleia2> SkippersBoss: what's up?
[19:06] <ochosi> oh wow, we should probably do a team meeting right now, since everybody's here :)
[19:07] <pleia2> haha
[19:07] <SkippersBoss> I thought you would go nuts for dropping gimp
[19:07] <elfy> ochosi: lol
[19:07] <knome> ali1234, exactly, same way as other advanced tools and app groups with usually hard preferences (irc client, office suite..)
[19:07] <ElderDryas> pleia2's here, give her her 3rd chance to run one :)
[19:07] <pleia2> SkippersBoss: it's sad, but users are used to it
[19:07] <ali1234> the big difference with gimp is there really isn't any alternatives
[19:08] <ali1234> but, it's a high level "professional" tool that most people don't even need at all
[19:08] <pleia2> since ubuntu doesn't have one
[19:08] <knome> ali1234, yep. we've looked for lighter alternatives, but there are none
[19:08] <ali1234> there aren't even heavier alternatives :)
[19:08] <knome> except that gimp is not really professional enough to be used by professionals.
[19:08] <SkippersBoss> Gimp is euhm Gimp, in a class of it's own
[19:08] <knome> ali1234, cinepaint? :)
[19:09] <genii> Maybe mtpaint?
[19:09] <ali1234> isn't cinepaint a gimp fork anyway?
[19:09] <knome> genii, i'm sure we've looked at that, and there was something eww about it ;)
[19:10] <knome> ali1234, mate is a fork of gnome, but it's still a competitor/alternative...
[19:10] <genii> Hm
[19:10] <ali1234> there's krita too, but none of these things do the same thing as gimp
[19:10] <knome> right, last version released on 2011
[19:10] <knome> krita is kde/qt
[19:10] <ali1234> yes, of course
[19:10] <ali1234> even kde does not have a photo-manipulation tool
[19:10] <knome> so it's out of question to begin with for xubuntu
[19:11] <pleia2> there's tux paint
[19:11] <knome> pleia2, i'm sure we looked at that too...
[19:11] <knome> oh lol
[19:11]  * knome facepalms
[19:11] <Unit193> I think the gist of it is...
[19:11] <pleia2> yeah, pretty sure we're bikeshedding now
[19:11] <ElderDryas> I vote for blue
[19:12] <knome> the argument so far has been "there is no alternative for gimp, so let's keep it"
[19:12] <ali1234> i dont hink that's a good reason to keep it
[19:12] <pleia2> also, I <3 gimp
[19:12] <Unit193> ElderDryas: What's wrong with Green, or red?
[19:12] <ali1234> it's only a good reason to choose gimp if you want something that does what gimp does :)
[19:12] <knome> which is *kind of* fair... but otoh, it's like "there is no good alternative for libreoffice, so install it"
[19:12] <ElderDryas> Unit193: Blue fades so nicely
[19:13] <knome> (no, i'm not proposing to install libreoffice)
[19:13] <elfy> say that on the m/l :p
[19:13]  * SkippersBoss uses gnumeric but will accept that others favour Libreoffice
[19:13] <Unit193> Two minutes later, on Webupd8, "Xubuntu to install Libreoffice by default, drops gnumeric and abiword."
[19:14] <knome> the only situation when it's a problem to install gimp/something else after the installation is offline circumstances
[19:14] <knome> maybe there should be some kind of ISO that acts like a repository with that extra stuff
[19:14] <knome> we could maintain it in cooperation with, say, lubuntu and other friends.
[19:15] <Unit193> But the whole thing is slightly moot at this point, FF is today so playing with the seed isn't a great idea.
[19:15] <knome> Unit193, for 15.04.
[19:15] <knome> i understand it's not a simple/quick task
[19:16] <knome> and i'd like a bit more discussion from the team anyway
[19:16] <ali1234> a better example of "no good alternative" would be inkscape
[19:16] <ali1234> that's arguably just as useful as gimp
[19:16] <knome> ali1234, on a VERY personal level, i'd really wouldn't mind dropping gimp and replacing it with inkscape.
[19:17] <knome> ali1234, but i understand there's a lot wrong with that thought ;)
[19:17] <ali1234> i use both regularly, so that's swings and roundabouts to me
[19:17] <Unit193> Meh, it's more complicated and "not as useful" to "beginners".
[19:17] <ochosi> knome: not sure whether a cooperation on such a repo would work as soon as lxde is lxqt
[19:17] <zequence> The two aren't used for the same purpose though
[19:17] <zequence> They are not the same type of applications
[19:17] <knome> ochosi, hmm, right
[19:17] <knome> zequence, i said there's a lot wrong in that :P
[19:17] <ali1234> zequence: right, we're not saying one should replace the other
[19:17] <knome> i know they are different.
[19:17] <knome> i'm not REALLY proposing it.
[19:18] <knome> and i'm not proposing to include inkscape anyway
[19:18] <knome> people who want to use it, can install it
[19:18] <SkippersBoss> Knome: you want Xubuntu to become a barebone release with an extra ISO covering the apps ?
[19:18] <ali1234> the question is, why do we ship one but not the other, given that they're both similar in the type of user they are pitched for
[19:18] <Unit193> knome: If the Mate desktop becomes official, we'll still share GTK stuff with them and a little with Ubuntu Gnome, and of course always UbuntuStudio, but all for different purposes.
[19:19] <ali1234> even KDE people are going to want gimp
[19:19] <knome> SkippersBoss, that's not exactly what i'm after, but we seriously do not need a tool for every imaginable task
[19:19] <knome> ali1234, and maybe libreoffice.
[19:19] <SkippersBoss> I am with you on that
[19:19] <ali1234> yeah
[19:19] <knome> Unit193, sure
[19:19] <knome> the ISO could be pretty much about gimp/libreoffice
[19:19] <ali1234> and inkscape :)
[19:20] <knome> maybe
[19:20] <knome> i mean, i don't mind if we don't have that ISO
[19:20] <knome> i'd like to know how many people even install their machines in offline circumstances AND want gimp/LO
[19:20] <knome> maybe more if we decide to drop abiword/gnumeric
[19:20] <Unit193> Or, slower internet too.
[19:20] <ali1234> we'll never know, because they are offline
[19:20] <knome> Unit193, that too
[19:21] <knome> ali1234, well they got their ISO somehow
[19:21] <elfy> bloke up the road
[19:21] <elfy> or something 
[19:21] <Unit193> Gridders?
[19:21] <knome> well then the bloke can report it ;)
[19:21] <knome> i mean sure, it's a hard thing to measure.
[19:21] <elfy> the bloke runs win98 and just did it for a favour :p
[19:21] <knome> then too bad
[19:22] <knome> slow/no internet, no "support guy" and new to linux sounds like a bad idea anyway
[19:23] <knome> i'm not sure if it's realistic to ultimately be helpful for that person anyway
[19:23] <Unit193> The support fella is elfy.
[19:23] <knome> because what are they doing with their computer anyway without internet?
[19:23]  * elfy is bloke with win98 
[19:23] <elfy> knome: playing a bunch of music someone gave them on parole
[19:24] <knome> hah.
[19:24] <knome> that's becoming a very border case anyway
[19:24] <knome> whenever we are talking about this, i'm thinking of like, africa.
[19:25] <Unit193> I still support border cases, but yeah doesn't have to be default.
[19:25] <knome> constant slow connetions, maybe the DVD is used by dozens of people
[19:25] <ali1234> do we actually know anything about what "africans" actually want, or are we just guessing based on stereotypes?
[19:25] <knome> Unit193, i'd like to support them too, but yep, it's wonky.
[19:25] <knome> ali1234, of course we are guessing
[19:25] <knome> except pleia2 was in africa..
[19:26] <knome> ali1234, though that is/is not the point
[19:26] <Unit193> I know someone on IRC from South Aferica, but he uses Kubuntu. :P
[19:26] <knome> ali1234, we don't know about those cases anyway, so there is less reason to keep gimp/office suite
[19:26] <knome> ali1234, just as much there is more reason to keep them...
[19:26] <knome> Unit193, south africa != africa :P
[19:27] <pleia2> most people still use internet cafes to download big things, or cellphone dongles that don't support linux anyway (sigh)
[19:27] <Unit193> Yeeeep.
[19:27] <knome> pleia2, question is: do they need abiword/gnumeric/LO or gimp? :P
[19:27] <knome> pleia2, if they do, is it a problem to get that in the internet cafe?
[19:27] <pleia2> in Ghana at least the school curriculum requires office knowledge (it doesn't specify Microsoft)
[19:28] <pleia2> and some training centers actually teach LO
[19:28] <knome> pleia2, do you think it'd be a problem for somebody in the school to grab an ISO with LO?
[19:28] <knome> pleia2, i mean, if that was available...
[19:28] <pleia2> no
[19:28] <knome> or do the students need to handle that themself
[19:28] <knome> yeah
[19:29] <pleia2> and they don't use gimp
[19:29] <knome> so an office suite on the main ISO maybe isn't as essential as we think
[19:29] <pleia2> well, not having an office suite is pretty meh
[19:29] <SkippersBoss> Complete office suite no 
[19:29] <knome> people in belgium can get their office suite anyway.
[19:29] <pleia2> I'm ok with dropping gimp, but going without an office suite is painful
[19:29] <knome> having abiword that breaks every cycle is pretty meh...
[19:29] <SkippersBoss> People in Belgium will have a fast internet connection
[19:30] <Unit193> pleia2: Including gnumeric/abiword?
[19:30] <pleia2> at least abiword/gnumeric get you limping with office support out of the box
[19:30] <pleia2> but honestly I'd prefer LO
[19:30] <Unit193> That it does.
[19:30] <Unit193> And, SkippersBoss uses it at least, so that's someone.
[19:30] <knome> pleia2, yeah, but installing that... meh.
[19:30] <pleia2> and we've had this discussion with users about a billion times
[19:31] <pleia2> LO is better, isn't as bad as it used to be (much faster)
[19:31] <pleia2> s/bad/slow, monster
[19:31] <knome> Unit193, craft an ISO for me... :P
[19:31] <knome> Unit193, drop gimp, abiword and gnumeric. add libreoffice writer.
[19:31] <SkippersBoss> Xubuntu to favour Gnumeric because /me uses it lol Not a good enough reason
[19:31] <SkippersBoss> I can live with that
[19:31] <Unit193> knome: libreoffice-writer, libreoffice-gtk, libreoffice-calc?
[19:32] <knome> Unit193, while you're at it, remove gmb
[19:32] <SkippersBoss> Why calc
[19:32] <ali1234> i think we need a spreadsheet as a minimum
[19:32] <knome> Unit193, yeah, i guess you can add -calc
[19:32] <knome> i'm most interested in the ISO size
[19:32] <pleia2> yeah, need spreadsheet
[19:33] <SkippersBoss> Add LO writer let people install calc
[19:33] <knome> common LO packages are quite big, so in a way it isn't too bad to install more components at that point
[19:33] <ali1234> everyone who has to deal with money in any capacity needs a spreadsheet - that's everyone
[19:33] <SkippersBoss> pleia2, you have a fast inernet connection
[19:33] <SkippersBoss> ok, /me sold
[19:33] <ali1234> unless they are like 12
[19:33] <knome> ali1234, actually... :P
[19:33] <knome> well, i only use spreadsheets for invoices.
[19:34] <ali1234> ironically i have a separate app for that :)
[19:34] <knome> but yeah, i guess it's essential..
[19:34] <knome> can't think me writing invoices manually with writer
[19:34] <ali1234> yeah that would really suck
[19:34] <knome> even though it would be possible.
[19:36] <knome> i'm off now, but i'm back later
[19:37] <SkippersBoss> type writers.... who would sell the ink tape
[19:37] <SkippersBoss> Ah ok
[19:37] <knome> don't let me being away stop discussing :)
[19:38] <elfy> gnumeric and abiword are apps I use like gmb - run them to test testcases and to test 
[19:38] <SkippersBoss> So LO writer  and calc yes
[19:39] <SkippersBoss> gmb a mayb but display options reduced
[19:39] <SkippersBoss> Gimp a mayb or a No ?
[19:39] <ali1234> my problem with gmb is more about the weird bugs and quirks
[19:39] <elfy> and I assume that if we used LO we'd be able to forget about bugs as a team
[19:40] <ali1234> except for the theme bugs, yes
[19:40] <ali1234> libreoffice-gtk has many quirks that only show up with certain themes
[19:41] <SkippersBoss> I feel a warning notice coming up... 
[19:41] <ali1234> those are all superficial anyway though
[19:42] <SkippersBoss> anyone any other thoughts ??
[19:43] <ElderDryas> ali1234: Are these "theme bugs" in LO with the themes that Xubuntu ships with or other/add on themes?
[19:43] <ali1234> ElderDryas: each theme seems to trigger a different set of quirks
[19:44] <ElderDryas> ali1234: Including the "shipped with" themes?
[19:44] <SkippersBoss> Mind you, Abiword has had the same issues in the past
[19:44] <ali1234> ElderDryas: yes, shimmer themes trigger some
[19:45] <Unit193> knome: libreoffice-math is pulled in too.  Not looking fantastic, but not too bad.
[19:45] <elfy> well if nothing else - if we do move we've got a while till 16.04 :)
[19:47] <SkippersBoss> Yes but that's a long time in which things could brake
[19:47] <elfy> but that's the time scale we've got to work with
[19:47] <elfy> is my point
[19:47] <SkippersBoss> Fair enough
[19:49] <SkippersBoss> Super ficial I can deal with. A mention in the FAQ could help here
[19:50] <ali1234> here's an example of the type of bug i'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nY0uA5yI8Y
[19:50] <elfy> brainwash: drag and drop something to desktop here ignores where I've dropped it 
[19:50] <ali1234> the tick box doesn't redraw until you move the mouse off it
[19:50] <ali1234> this one only happens in compiz, and not xfwm
[19:51] <ali1234> but it's representative of the kind of thing i mean
[19:51] <ali1234> it's trivial but can be confusing if you click the checkbox and it doesn't change
[19:51] <SkippersBoss> ah compiz
[19:52] <ali1234> it still happens with xfwm slightly, but there the middle part of the checkbox redraws, and there's just an orange border left behind
[19:53] <SkippersBoss> people I have to leave you all for now. Family business to attend to
[19:53] <Unit193> knome: Yeah, a tad on the big side. :/
[19:53] <elfy> cya SkippersBoss 
[19:53] <SkippersBoss> but thiw discussion is not over
[19:53] <elfy> Unit193: but then again - what has size got to do with the argument - surely we're not close to 4.6Gb with it :)
[19:54] <ali1234> Unit193: how big?
[19:54] <Unit193> ali1234: 1078804480 vs 1007681536 32bit utopic both.
[19:54] <ali1234> something we didn't consider is people who use the live system as their main environment
[19:55] <elfy> should we?
[19:55] <ali1234> i dunno, just saying we didn't :)
[19:55] <elfy> :)
[19:56] <elfy> I'd be happy to consider them - just not at the expense of people that are installing to disk
[19:56] <Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/97896/  I use it as a live system on my flash, but then again I don't count as it's my own build.
[19:57] <elfy> and how much extra would it be if we'd lost gimp too 
[19:58] <elfy> if that's the concern here
[19:59] <elfy> if not just ignore me :)
[19:59] <Unit193> ~30MB, I'd say.  https://unit193.net/dump/xubuntu-14.10-lo-i386.iso
[20:00] <ali1234> so a net gain of 40mb?
[20:01] <brainwash> elfy: thanks for testing, actually thought that it was fixed at some point
[20:01] <Unit193> ali1234: That'd be in addition to the 70MB from gnumeric, abiword, and gmusicbrowser.
[20:03] <ali1234> wait, the 1078804480 figure is with or without gimp?
[20:03] <Unit193> That still has gimp installed.
[20:04] <elfy> brainwash: welcome, I commented 
[20:04] <ali1234> and it's 70MB bigger than the standard one, so without gimp it would only be 40MB bigger... is what i was saying
[20:08] <Unit193> Correct, just have to remember you're trading a music player, image editor, and office suite for another office suite.
[20:09] <Unit193> Could perhaps blacklist -math, at least keeping that one out.
[20:10] <elfy> on the other hand - why are we worrying about size 
[20:10] <Unit193> Because 1G is our max right now, IIRC.
[20:10] <ali1234> yeah, fitting on a USB flash drive is a good thing
[20:11] <Unit193> Though, most that'd be in use at this point I'd hope would be bigger than 1G, more like 4 or 8.
[20:12] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, Could you upload https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/utopic/xfce4-session/merge2/+merge/231095 ? bzr is having issues with it, so it would probably have to be a straight upload
[20:12] <elfy> yea
[20:13] <Unit193> !info xfce4-session | Noskcaj 
[20:14] <Unit193> !info xfce4-session utopic
[20:14] <Unit193> Bleh, stupid default...
[20:14] <Noskcaj> oh
[20:14] <Noskcaj> I'd missed that
[20:16] <Unit193> There's still the xfce4-volumed merge, super simple too.
[20:17] <Unit193> Nope, not volumed, -mixer?
[20:17] <Noskcaj> ok, i'll do that today
[20:19] <Unit193> http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/x/xfce4-mixer/xfce4-mixer_4.11.0-1_changelog heh, well you should know about it.
[22:29] <knome> Unit193, mhm, i'm not really willing to go over 1GB :)
[22:53] <bluesabre> evening folks
[22:54] <ochosi> evening bluesabre 
[22:54] <ochosi> heading off to bed already
[22:54] <bluesabre> ochosi: wimp
[22:54] <ochosi> hey, i did my release! ;)
[22:54] <ochosi> now you do yours before you start calling me names
[22:54] <bluesabre> fair enough
[22:54] <bluesabre> :P
[22:54] <ochosi> :>
[22:55]  * bluesabre has to do releases and upload them all in one night
[22:55] <bluesabre> fuuuunnn
[22:55] <bluesabre> ;)
[22:55] <ochosi> hehe
[22:56] <ochosi> well you can focus on those where the FFe will be hardest to get through
[22:57] <bluesabre> !info light-locker-settings utopic
[22:57] <ochosi> yeah, that needs a new version
[22:57] <bluesabre> ochosi, elfy ^ that's the newest one
[22:57] <bluesabre> but I guess there are some issues
[22:57] <ochosi> oh, it is?
[22:57] <bluesabre> yeah
[22:58] <ochosi> with the xfpm detection?
[22:58] <bluesabre> that should work fine
[22:58] <bluesabre> yeah
[22:58] <ochosi> err? :)
[22:59] <bluesabre> yes, xfpm detection works in that version
[22:59] <ochosi> Unit193: you saw my convo with cjwatson i presume?
[22:59] <bluesabre> but yeah, I'll do some debugging
[23:00]  * bluesabre returns to reading backlog
[23:00] <ochosi> well, after FF
[23:01] <Unit193> ochosi: Right after you pinged?  Wasn't much of one, more of a "Oh right, that."
[23:04] <ochosi> Unit193: well at least he promised to take care of it soon
[23:04] <Unit193> Thought he was going to already?
[23:05] <ochosi> no clue, that was the first time i talked to him about it
[23:06] <bluesabre> Unit193: you needed something?
[23:07] <Unit193> bluesabre: Don't have it yet in Debian, you can't sync it yet. :3
[23:08] <bluesabre> carry on
[23:08] <bluesabre> ;)
[23:13] <Unit193> bluesabre: Are you permitted to do a fake-sync yet?  The cutoff is midnight UTC right?
[23:14] <bluesabre> I do not know when the cutoff is
[23:14] <bluesabre> Midnight UTC Thursday or Friday?
[23:14] <bluesabre> as in, are we already late?
[23:15] <knome> i'd say midnight UTC thursday
[23:16] <bluesabre> I know that the freezes are usually announced by email
[23:16] <bluesabre> so I'll just keep working
[23:17] <ochosi> great bluesabre, awesome sauce!
[23:17] <knome> well, you can double-check by cooperating in #ubuntu-release
[23:17] <bluesabre> that too
[23:17] <knome> besides, there's still time before thu midnight :P
[23:17] <Unit193> Yeah, but I have to get it into Debian first.
[23:18] <knome> ;)
[23:21] <Unit193> (The other one I know isn't going to make it.)
[23:43]  * bluesabre runs a test build before pushing greeter to ubuntu
[23:47] <ochosi> bluesabre: hope andrew's fix works
[23:47] <ochosi> now i really gotta finally hit the sack
[23:47] <bluesabre> it does for 1.9
[23:47] <ochosi> good night and good luck!
[23:47] <bluesabre> 1.8.6 fails to build because of gtk deprecations, will have to try trusty later
[23:47] <bluesabre> but good enough for me to push the package we're interested in
[23:47] <ochosi> hmm stupid gtk
[23:47] <bluesabre> xfpm can be tomorrow
[23:48] <ochosi> okeydokey
[23:48] <bluesabre> since its just a point release
[23:54] <bluesabre> got it
[23:59] <bluesabre> elfy: re the greeter release, we'll need to update the greeter config in x-d-s, so you may notice your hostname and clock missing, everything else should be fine