[12:20] <cmaloney> good morning
[12:21] <brousch> https://jawbone.com/blog/napa-earthquake-effect-on-sleep/
[12:21] <bookiebot> http://goo.gl/Eql5gt - How did the Napa earthquake affect sleep?
[12:43] <PhillyMelt02> I used to live in California (LA area) and was woken up by several smaller quakes during my time there.
[12:43] <PhillyMelt02> It was really tough to get back to sleep after that
[12:44] <PhillyMelt02> That is a cool article and visualization of the data
[12:47] <brousch> A small example of what we can begin to do with this internet of things and wearables
[13:03] <mrgoodcat> talking about the jawbone article?
[13:15] <brousch> yeah
[13:30] <dzho> I guess it's just me, then, that all this tracking is beyond creepy.
[13:31] <dzho> I mean, my phone still nags me because I have location services turned off.
[13:42] <brousch> Well this is opt-in tracking, so presumably these people know and approve of it
[13:48] <mrgoodcat> also, i think it would be far more creepy if it was the government
[13:49] <mrgoodcat> but since its a private company with permission it doesn't really bother me
[13:52] <PhillyMelt02> I think it also depends a lot on what you are sharing.  Location is different than sleep cycle.
[13:53] <jrwren> government can track you even with location services turned off.
[14:03] <dzho> jrwren: that's a bit circular, given that the government now points to the fact that so many people submit to monitoring by the private sector as a justification for why its no big deal that it monitors people.
[14:03] <dzho> mrgoodcat: see also
[14:04] <dzho> brousch: yeah, opt-in is really the difference, here, but that difference is papered over pretty easily.
[14:04] <dzho> brousch: thing is, widespread digital surveillance and tracking is ceasing to be opt in.
[14:05] <dzho> Want your kid to buy lunch?  Sign up with our lunch accounting web application!
[14:05] <dzho> eg, through school.
[14:05] <dzho> which, you know, is mandatory.
[14:06] <brousch> I don't understand why that bothers people. Now you know your kid is buying lunches with the lunch money
[14:07] <brousch> So does the goverment. Why is this a problem?
[14:07] <brousch> How can this be used for evil?
[14:08] <dzho> no problem at all.
[14:08] <dzho> what could possibly go wrong with holding data on food allergies, for instance?
[14:09] <dzho> tjere
[14:09] <dzho> d'oh
[14:09] <brousch> Sounds useful to me
[14:09] <dzho> of course it does.
[14:09] <dzho> just so long as the gubmint doesn't do it, because that would be creepy.
[14:09] <dzho> wtf.
[14:10] <dzho> oh, wait, this *is* the government doing it.
[14:10] <brousch> Why is that creepy?
[14:10] <dzho> heh
[14:10] <dzho> I don't know, ask mrgoodcat
[14:10] <jrwren> I don't know what I said that is circular. I simply made a related statement.
[14:10] <dzho> I trust the government to always have my best interests at heart, implicitly.
[14:11] <jrwren> Government can track you even with location services turned off.
[14:11] <dzho> jrwren: it's just a simple matter of programming, after all.
[14:12] <jrwren> dzho: will you fill out the FAFSA so your kid can get college aid?
[14:12] <dzho> jrwren: a ways off, but yeah, that'll be almost as fun as doing tax returns!
[14:13] <dzho> I can't wait!
[14:13] <jrwren> :)
[14:13] <dzho> (srsly, though, this is a funny thing people do:  You say "A sucks" so they say "oh yeah, but B sucks too so there!")
[14:13] <jrwren> My dad refused to fill out FAFSA citing privacy concerns. As a result, no college aid for me. Bonus result: I could not get college loans so graduated college debt free.
[14:14] <jrwren> I prefer my story of most other peoples story of "so much student loans"
[14:14] <dzho> You Won't Believe This Surprise Ending!
[14:14] <jrwren> haha.
[14:14] <jrwren> I did not mean to say "this sucks too"... but I totally did. Sorry about that.
[14:14] <dzho> The College Aid Secret Banks Hate.
[14:14]  * dzho <-- got a full ride back in the day
[14:14] <jrwren> What I meant to say: If you really want to stay hidden you have to turn your phone off.
[14:14] <jrwren> congrats on your full ride.
[14:15] <dzho> haha, thanks, but it was a long time ago
[14:16] <dzho> I think "public" education now costs as much as private education cost then.
[14:17] <brousch> Way more. It is insane
[14:18] <dzho> anyway, it's a fine line between not totally giving in and letting everything about us be tracked quite literally down to the level of when we roll the fuck over in bed, and being a crazy refusenik hermit.
[14:18] <brousch> I used some number and came up with $250,000 for my son to go 4 years at U-M in 2026
[14:18] <dzho> damn
[14:19] <dzho> I'm sure it'll be cheaper if you just agree to have $CORPORATION tattoo its name on his forehead though.
[14:19] <dzho> wcpgw
[14:19] <dzho> (I guess someone actually did that, though.  This is the problem Charles Stross has writing near-future fiction.  Crazy stuff keeps happening already now.)
[14:20] <brousch> Bah, tattoos are outdated. He will have a virtual tattoo which is displayed in the most popular augmented reality layers
[14:20] <mrgoodcat> tattoo changes based on who is looking at your forehead
[14:22] <jrwren> dzho: mine was a long time ago too. I don't know if an 18-25 yr old could now do what I did then.
[14:22] <brousch> You'd need a really well-paying job
[14:23] <jrwren> I didn't go to U of M either though.
[14:23] <brousch> I saw an article that basically said it's impossible to work through full-time college now
[14:23] <jrwren> And I did at least have free room and board - its called living with my Dad.
[14:23] <jrwren> brousch: work full time and college full time?  I'd suggest that its always been impossible.
[14:24] <dzho> heard a thing the other day that said back in the day you could have done it by working summers
[14:25] <jrwren> It would all depend on pay rate
[14:25] <dzho> pretty darned close, actually: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/aug/08/facebook-posts/1978-someone-minimum-wage-could-earn-enough-summer/
[14:25] <bookiebot> http://goo.gl/YjcBTZ - Could a minimum-wage earner in 1978 earn enough in a summer to pay a full year's tuition? | PolitiFact
[14:25] <jrwren> Could do it now working summers if you were payed $100/yr :)
[14:26] <jrwren> oh, min wage, lolz
[14:26] <dzho> I think that's a very revealing comparison, to tie together minimum wage and tuition.
[14:27] <jrwren> I totally agre.
[14:27] <brousch> WMU just told me $8000/semester, . So you'd need to earn $2000/mo to pay for that
[14:27] <jrwren> I wonder what min wage would be if tied to tuition. Probably $50/hr or something.
[14:27] <jrwren> brousch: $2000/mo is doable, right?
[14:28] <jrwren> That is $12/hr, before taxes.
[14:28] <brousch> If you can handle 12 credit hours and work 40 hours/wk
[14:28] <jrwren> I think most college kids could find a job making that much.
[14:28] <brousch> Where such work is scheduled around your academic schedule
[14:28] <jrwren> 12 and 40 is tough. I often did 12 and 30.
[14:29] <jrwren> or 8 and 40
[14:29] <brousch> 30 hours/wk is probably more likely, and that devotes all of your weekends to work
[14:29] <jrwren> oh yeah, I didn't consider weekends.
[14:29] <jrwren> I should have picked up a Sunday job back then.
[14:29] <brousch> Maybe waiting tables or something
[14:30] <brousch> So I think it's still possible in Kalamazoo
[14:30] <jrwren> kzoo promise!
[14:30] <jrwren> but you aren't in kzoo eh?
[14:30] <brousch> No, but I use them because they have decent university in a relatively inexpensive location
[14:32] <dzho> So, let's look at the ratio in 1978:  minimum wage was $2.65, and average tuition and fees was $688.  Current avg tuition apparently is almost $9000.
[14:32] <dzho> So, minimum wage would have to be $35, if I did this right: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8150369/
[14:32] <bookiebot> http://goo.gl/lj982v - Ubuntu Pastebin
[14:32] <jrwren> yow
[14:33] <dzho> but, you know, we're keeping taxes low, right?
[14:33] <dzho> hahahahaha!
[14:33] <brousch> Both of my parents worked through WMU without loans
[14:34] <jrwren> brousch: in the 60s?
[14:34] <brousch> ~1970
[14:34] <jrwren> cool.
[14:35] <dzho> source for current tuition and fees: http://www.collegedata.com/cs/content/content_payarticle_tmpl.jhtml?articleId=10064
[14:35] <bookiebot> http://goo.gl/fxQlF - What's the Price Tag for a College Education? - COLLEGEdata - Pay Your Way
[14:35] <dzho> it's down the page a bit
[14:35] <jrwren> i don't know dc well enough to read it.
[14:37] <dzho> oh.
[14:37] <dzho> it's postfix notation
[14:37] <jrwren> i know.
[14:37] <jrwren> I still don't know it well enough.
[14:37] <jrwren> e.g.
[14:37] <dzho> number number operation instead of number operation number.  not that hard
[14:38] <dzho> p is "print"
[14:38] <jrwren> why is 12 13 4 / result in 0
[14:38] <jrwren> err.
[14:38] <jrwren> why is 12 3 4 / result in 0
[14:38] <dzho> the only really obscure thing is the radix
[14:38] <jrwren> but 12 4 3 / result in 1  ?
[14:38] <dzho> that's what the "4 k" bit is.
[14:38] <jrwren> that isn't short for 4000 ?
[14:38] <dzho> "here is a 4.  Make that the number of decimal points you display"
[14:38] <dzho> I don't know why they picked "k" for that.
[14:38] <jrwren> oh! that is bc's scale.
[14:39] <dzho> 12 4 3 / will give you the result of 4 divided by 3, leaving 1.mumblesomething on the stack, with 12 beneath it
[14:39] <jrwren> oh. i see.
[14:39] <dzho> a stack is really the only data structure I understand I think.
[14:39] <jrwren> 3 / 4 is zero.  12 / 0 is zero
[14:40] <jrwren> wtff. still don't grock it
[14:40] <dzho> 4 / 3 is 1
[14:40] <dzho> 5 2 - is 3
[14:40] <jrwren> haha, I grok stack, but being good at applying operators to a stack is something different.
[14:40] <dzho> heh
[14:40] <jrwren> why isn't 12 3 4 / p divide by zero ?
[14:41] <dzho> because it doesn't round, I don't think.  It just limits what it displays?
[14:41] <jrwren> oh.
[14:41] <dzho> oh
[14:41] <jrwren> yes, you are right.
[14:41] <dzho> wait. the operators are binary only
[14:41] <jrwren> thanks.
[14:41] <dzho> so, you need 12 3 4 / / p
[14:41] <jrwren> oh right, of course I do.
[14:42] <jrwren> I should have known better. I guess its been 20yrs
[14:42] <dzho> I took another go at Forth recently, so I'm sort of still tuned up a little on stack arithmetic.
[14:42] <dzho> plus dc is my go to for quick calcs
[14:42] <dzho> easy in easy out and then easy to copypasta into a text document
[14:42] <jrwren> i always figured dc should be my go to, but bc is easier because there is NOTHING to learn.
[14:42] <dzho> haha
[14:43] <jrwren> shell is pretty easy too.  echo $((12/3))
[14:43] <dzho> I tried bc once back in the day
[14:43] <dzho> ahhhhh all those extra characters!
[14:43] <dzho> but yeah, if I need something in a script $(()) is magic
[14:43] <jrwren> for shell? yeah, but I know shell, so I see right through them.
[14:44] <cmaloney> I totally use bc -l
[14:44] <dzho> echo $((1 + $RANDOM % 5)) is a favorite for LUG meeting book giveaways.
[14:44] <dzho> "pick a number between one and five"
[14:46] <cmaloney> python -c "import random;print random.randint(1,5)"
[14:46] <cmaloney> ;)
[16:04] <cmaloney> (SECURE)Electronic Account Statement 0386494805_06112013 <- Seems legit
[16:28] <dzho> it has lots of numbers, it must be right!
[16:31] <nixternal> you guys still LoCo in Michigan or just MUG it?
[16:35] <cmaloney> Please rephrase?
[16:35] <cmaloney> There's still a loco in Michigan
[16:35] <cmaloney> and MUG is still going. :)
[16:35] <nixternal> yeah, shouldn't have used Michigan, should have just said Detroit :p
[16:36] <cmaloney> There's not a whole lot of activity at the loco level though
[16:36] <cmaloney> partially because most of the focus is phone or cloud, and partially because Canonical hired 'em all. ;)
[16:37] <nixternal> haha
[16:40] <greg-g> duuuuuude
[16:40]  * greg-g is in a meeting, bbiab
[16:55] <cmaloney> Oh, or we let them out of the state for some reason.
[17:05] <greg-g> bah, still in meeting and he leaves
[17:43] <brousch> Office drone just asked me to install his copies of current MS Office and Adobe Pro so he could do his homework at lunch
[18:46] <ColonelPanic001> I haven't used identi.ca in ages, looks like it has gone to meet its maker. Where are all the cool linux people now?
[18:48] <brousch> facebook
[18:52] <ColonelPanic001> :\
[18:52] <brousch> google+
[18:52] <brousch> ColonelPanic001: Accept my Go challenge
[18:59] <ColonelPanic001> hm, I'll go look in a minute
[19:00] <cmaloney> identi.ca is still there.
[19:00] <ColonelPanic001> sorry, this mobile client doesn't let me do it there, and I forgot to go there
[19:00] <ColonelPanic001> I went to identi.ca and my old uername didn't work, and when I tried to register, it didn't work. Checking the ajax request, it said registeration wasn't allowed
[19:00] <cmaloney> That said, I have a twitter bridge running and I have more than a few screenfulls of tweets
[19:01] <cmaloney> I think they're trying to offload the strain on one server
[19:02] <ColonelPanic001> I guess we could just run our own, really.
[19:02] <ColonelPanic001> that could be neat
[19:02] <cmaloney> https://microca.st is another instance
[19:02] <bookiebot> http://goo.gl/fAI7qH - Welcome - Microca.st
[19:03] <cmaloney> LMK if you log in to one and I'll follow you. :)
[19:05] <ColonelPanic001> I was mostly doing it for the WSULUG
[19:05] <ColonelPanic001> but if we started a server for it anyway, that'd be cool. We could just have members have accounts there, and one for "The Lug"
[19:05] <cmaloney> Yep
[19:05] <mrgoodcat> i really need to start hosting my irc sessions on my own computer
[19:06] <mrgoodcat> my tmux runs on the WMU computer club server which has been down ~14 hours now
[19:10] <cmaloney> weechat runs on a raspberry Pi just fine
[19:17] <cmaloney> Nothing in the world worse than someone getting cuplicate email and then posting a question about it to a mailing list.
[19:18] <cmaloney> +1 me too ditto +1 +1 +1 complain aggitation anger frustration denouncement vitriol destruction harghlabalarghlblalfaragh
[19:20] <brousch> cmaloney: I know exactly which email you are talking about