[07:46] <ochosi> bluesabre: we might wanna set better default values for the blank/DPMS timeouts in xfpm. the current ones seem really low (iirc 1min on battery, 10mins on ac)
[08:25] <elfy> morning peeps
[08:25] <ochosi> morning elfy
[08:25] <elfy> hi ochosi 
[08:28] <elfy> broken nvidia here with the combination of nouveau being like molasses and I'm in trusty for a while :p
[08:33] <ochosi> that's sorta what it's there for :)
[08:33] <ochosi> so nouveau is broken for you?
[08:35] <elfy> dog slow - changing workspaces - I end up with everything on one untill it sorts itself out
[08:36] <elfy> though it could be something else - I've not got the patience today to find out - all I can say is that a clean install acts the same way :p
[08:39] <ochosi> right
[08:39] <ochosi> and nvidia doesn't really work either?
[08:39] <elfy> nope 
[08:39] <ochosi> :/
[08:39] <elfy> install nvidia - it uses nouveau
[08:40] <ochosi> that's odd
[08:40] <elfy> yep
[08:40] <ochosi> tried to create xorg.conf with the nvidia settings dialog yet?
[08:40] <elfy> there is an issue - I've seen chatter about it 
[08:40] <elfy> no - but pretty sure it's not going to work - nvidia broke with yesterday's kernel update for some
[08:42] <ochosi> right, let's hope it'll get sorted until the release
[08:42] <elfy> I'm sure it will :)
[08:44] <elfy> might try one of the other nvidia options later - was using the -updates one
[08:45] <brainwash> hello ochosi and elfy 
[08:45] <elfy> morning brainwash 
[08:45] <ochosi> hey
[08:47] <brainwash> elfy: did you forward bug 1358361 upstream?
[08:48] <elfy> brainwash: no, ochosi and I talked about that at the time - I did do mousepad - which got a confused "what am I supposed to do with this" comment so I really forgot about doing the same for thunar ;)
[08:49] <elfy> makes sense really - pkexec should be a distro thing logically
[08:50] <elfy> we might need it - does anyone else?
[08:50] <brainwash> I guess so, shouldn't hurt to ship the policy file, so every distro gets it
[08:53] <elfy> the other thing I guess is that while *we* forwarded the LP bug upstream - mousepad probably wasn't the place to do it
[08:53] <brainwash> so, a mailing list discussion is needed here
[08:53] <elfy> and I've no idea *where* it should be reported
[08:54] <elfy> brainwash: sorry - I'm not going to get involved in any pkexec discussion - I use gksu - and will continue to do so untill it's not available
[08:54] <elfy> not shipping gksu with a suitable replacement for however long we did was short-sighted at best
[08:54] <brainwash> and I don't use any apps which would require gksu or pkexec :)
[08:55] <brainwash> maybe should reassign the 2 bug reports to xubu default settings then?
[08:55] <brainwash> and keep things downstream
[08:56] <elfy> I'd guess so
[08:57] <elfy> agreed - and done
[08:57] <brainwash> thanks
[08:58] <elfy> no idea what to do with the upstream bug xfce 11088
[08:58] <elfy> probably needs to be marked invalid or something
[08:59] <elfy> they've both been released I believe 
[08:59] <brainwash> leave it open, maybe it will start a discussion on how to include/install the policy file
[09:02] <elfy> the two LP bugs are all sorted now, right package and marked as released
[09:04] <brainwash> nice
[09:04] <brainwash> next report
[09:04] <brainwash> bug 1363223
[09:04] <brainwash> on-line help
[09:05] <brainwash> that's the xfce wiki page, right?
[09:05] <elfy> that'll be right 
[09:05] <elfy> yea - so I think I'd be right in assuming that none of that has been updated for the new version
[09:06] <brainwash> I remember that someone worked on the wiki page for xfdesktop 4.11
[09:06] <brainwash> slickymaster?
[09:06] <elfy> would have been at least him - possibly jjfrv8 too
[09:06] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, Can you please sync libxfce4util?
[09:07] <elfy> brainwash: and whoever else got corralled into help with it :)
[09:09] <brainwash> elfy: should we link the report the right 14.10 blueprint?
[09:09] <elfy> yea
[09:12] <brainwash> elfy: xubuntu-u-docs?
[09:12] <elfy> I'd say so 
[09:12] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, Corsac removed the delta in an upload about 30 min ago
[09:12] <brainwash> but it's actually the xfce wiki page
[09:12] <brainwash> so upstream work
[09:12] <elfy> also will need adding to trello
[09:12] <elfy> brainwash: yes - but we still need to track it
[09:13] <brainwash> right
[09:13] <elfy> we can always unlink it - better to at least have it visible 
[09:13] <brainwash> yea :)
[09:14] <elfy> done trello
[09:15] <elfy> ok - added a todo to -docs as well
[09:25] <elfy> brainwash: so - mailing list discussion - did you mean xfce mailing list? 
[09:25] <ochosi> commented on the xfpm docs bug
[09:25] <brainwash> yes, it should be discussed upstream
[09:26] <brainwash> ochosi: ah, makes sense, 1.3 is just a dev release and things will change slightly
[09:27] <ochosi> well, not anymore i hope
[09:27] <ochosi> but if you compare the 1.3 releases, the settings dialog always looked a tad different
[09:27] <ochosi> (and it might change again after 1.4)
[09:28] <ochosi> i'm happy to coordinate ppl, if anyone wants to help with that
[09:29] <brainwash> I was thinking that the person responsible for the awesome xfdesktop 4.11 wiki page could be interested in doing the same for xfpm
[09:30] <ochosi> right, that was jjfrv8 and slickymaster (and me a bit)
[09:33] <elfy> jjfrv8 is away and busy afaik lately, if we need help and I can I will
[09:39] <elfy> shame that Toz doesn't get involved more here - he spends most of his time on the forum chasing down xubuntu issues 
[09:40] <ochosi> true
[09:42] <ochosi> elfy: well you could always try to motivate him...
[09:43] <ochosi> i'm not on the forums anymore, so i never get in touch with him
[09:43] <elfy> he comes here most weekends ;)
[09:43] <ochosi> right
[09:43] <ochosi> never notized
[09:43] <ochosi> noticed
[09:45] <elfy> or at least when he's on freenode he comes here as well as the forum staff channel
[09:46] <elfy> right - well I'm off to get the day going and getting out dad's taxi ... cya later :)
[10:00] <brainwash> elfy: support for xfsm-shutdown to work with pkexec has been added upstream
[10:00] <brainwash> including the file org.xfce.session.policy
[10:25] <bluesabre> morning everybody
[10:25] <elfy> morning bluesabre 
[10:26] <elfy> brainwash: nice 
[10:26] <bluesabre> hey elfy
[10:26] <bluesabre> avoid kernel updates for nvidia... done
[10:27] <elfy> lol
[10:29] <ochosi> hey bluesabre 
[10:30] <brainwash> elfy: now I'm trying to get eric involved, maybe he is able to get the policy files in (upstream)
[10:31] <brainwash> hello bluesabre 
[10:31] <bluesabre> hey ochosi, brainwash
[11:00] <Unit193> Debian #690339 may be quite important to Xfce...
[11:01] <Unit193> Ah, xfce 9373
[11:03] <brainwash> do we need to patch our package in ubuntu?
[11:07] <Unit193> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/log/ unreleased at least.  Filed incorrectly?  Since we start policykit auth agent, it seems that works for now.
[11:15] <brainwash> we don't ship any "pkexec <app>" .desktop files either
[11:16] <Unit193> Doesn't mean they aren't installed.
[11:17] <brainwash> or created manually by the user
[11:17] <Unit193> Exec=synaptic-pkexec  seems they use a different method in general though.
[11:17] <brainwash> that's a simple wrapper script
[11:17] <Unit193> Hah, very.
[11:22] <bluesabre> ochosi: re: Better default values in xfpm, any suggestions?
[11:23] <ochosi_> bluesabre: hmyeah, maybe like this
[11:23] <ochosi_> on battery: blank: 10, dpms sleep: 15, dpms off: 30
[11:23] <ochosi_> on ac: blank: 15, dpms sleep: 20, dpms off: 60
[11:24] <bluesabre> alrighty, that sounds reasonable
[11:28] <ochosi_> might also end up setting those times upstream
[11:28] <ochosi_> but it might be a good idea to carry that in x-d-s anyway
[11:30] <brainwash> why different values for dpms sleep and off?
[11:31] <brainwash> having 3 steps is somewhat confusing
[11:31] <brainwash> blank -> sleep -> off
[11:33] <bluesabre> I think its because of monitor power states
[11:33] <bluesabre> on, black -> sleep -> off
[11:36] <brainwash> Standby: 0    Suspend: 0    Off: 600
[11:36] <brainwash> there is also suspend (dpms)
[11:37] <brainwash> now it's getting really confusing
[11:37] <brainwash> or is suspend = sleep?
[11:37] <brainwash> oh right
[11:38] <ochosi_> off takes longer than suspend for coming back/waking up
[11:38] <ochosi_> and uses less power
[11:39] <brainwash> and standby does what?
[11:39] <ochosi> standby and suspend are two different modes that also have slightly different power-usages and wakeup-times
[11:39] <ochosi> might differ depending on hardware
[11:39] <ochosi> in xfpm we only offer one "sleep mode"
[11:40] <ochosi> that can be configured via a hidden option
[11:40] <ochosi> since yet another slider or combobox would be kinda over the top
[11:40] <ochosi> default is suspend iirc
[11:40] <brainwash> yea, keep it simple
[11:40] <bluesabre> ochosi: found another setting that we were missing for suspend-locking
[11:40] <bluesabre> complete diff: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8187072/
[11:41]  * bluesabre should alphabetize
[11:41] <ochosi> bluesabre: right, possible that this wasn't explicitely needed, since we set that in xfce4-session, no?
[11:41] <ochosi> (and xfpm syncs with session)
[11:41] <ochosi> anyway, the rest looks nice! thanks!
[11:42] <bluesabre> actually, not defined in our default session either
[11:42] <bluesabre> applying
[11:44] <ochosi> maybe it's a default value
[11:44] <bluesabre> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8187098/
[11:46] <bluesabre> ^ mainly comparing with my current xml
[11:48] <bluesabre> so many places with same or similar settings
[11:56] <bluesabre> ochosi__: spotty internet today?
[11:56] <ochosi__> not sure it's me or freenode
[11:56] <bluesabre> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8187098/ in case you lost it
[11:56] <ochosi__> the rest of my connection is always up
[11:56] <ochosi__> yup, said it looks good before
[11:57] <ochosi__> but maybe that didn't reach you anymore :)
[11:57] <bluesabre> new paste
[11:57] <ochosi> netsplits
[11:57] <ochosi> yeah, saw that one before
[11:57] <bluesabre> ok
[11:58] <bluesabre> just to verify, we do want dpms-enabled, right?
[11:59] <elfy> busy busy busy you lot :)
[11:59] <elfy> quick question ochosi - why is it that everyone gets the battery icon now?
[12:00] <ochosi> bluesabre: yup
[12:00] <ochosi> elfy: because it is a plugin, not a trayicon that can be shown/hidden conditionally
[12:00] <bluesabre> elfy: should be a lightning bolt for desktop folks
[12:01] <bluesabre> or, I thought so
[12:01] <ochosi> bluesabre: not anymore ;)
[12:01] <elfy> bluesabre: possibly
[12:01] <ochosi> it's a plug now
[12:01] <ochosi> anyway, the thing is that it shows more stuff, like connected devices
[12:01] <bluesabre> ochosi messes with me
[12:01] <ochosi> bluesabre: no way, i showed the icon to you before pushing it!
[12:01] <elfy> mmm - not really answering why - just what :p
[12:02] <bluesabre> oh right, *that* icon
[12:02] <bluesabre> :D
[12:02] <ochosi> elfy: i did answer your question
[12:03] <ochosi> 14:00  ochosi$ elfy: because it is a plugin, not a trayicon that can be shown/hidden conditionally
[12:03] <ochosi> that's the simple reason
[12:03] <elfy> ok - so why was it added - regardless of whether it's a plugin or trayicon ;)
[12:03] <elfy> wasn't there before in desktop
[12:04] <bluesabre> right
[12:04] <elfy> not that it's important - just something else I remove 
[12:04] <ochosi> well as i said...
[12:04] <ochosi> it's a plugin
[12:04] <bluesabre> lol
[12:04] <ochosi> you cannot add/remove it conditionally
[12:05] <elfy> oic - so desktop HAS to have it because it might be useful in laptop ?
[12:05] <ochosi> yup
[12:05] <elfy> okey doke - thanks :)
[12:05] <ochosi> we can only put it there or not put it there (for everyone)
[12:05] <bluesabre> its not just for laptop power though
[12:06] <ochosi> and since it's important for laptops and by far not useless for desktops...
[12:06] <bluesabre> it shows wireless mice charge, has presentation mdoe, etc
[12:06] <ochosi> yup, what he ^ says :)
[12:06] <elfy> yep noticed the pointless presentation mode for elfy :p
[12:07] <bluesabre> :)
[12:07] <elfy> but I agree we'd not be wanting to NOT have it for laptops :)
[12:07] <bluesabre> actually, that might be handy for vnc users as well
[12:08] <ochosi> hehe, good
[12:08] <elfy> just got to ask the questions :)
[15:39] <Unit193> fr.po   71.8978%  getting close!
[17:28] <brainwash> someone does not like to uninstall re-installed packages on every release upgrade
[17:28] <brainwash> bug 1314153
[17:29] <brainwash> but what can we actually do resolve this?
[17:29] <brainwash> do we even want to -> invalid?
[17:30] <Unit193> Here's a useful hint, right before you do an upgrade,  sudo apt-get --no-install-recommends install xubuntu-desktop.  You'll at least get a little less (or a lot) than before.  I had thought about this before, but only tried it on the last two upgrades and am happier with the result.
[17:30] <brainwash> so, no actual bug here
[17:31] <Unit193> There will be a bug in the future, but I don't want to try and address it now. :P
[17:31] <brainwash> it's the expected behavior to pull in recommended packages
[17:31] <Unit193> Yep.
[17:31] <Unit193> I'd comment mentioning --no-install-recommends, but that's not really a bug.
[17:31] <brainwash> and the user is free to disable recommends in apt (config)
[17:31] <brainwash> alright
[17:31] <Unit193> Mhmm, but also not recommended.
[17:32] <brainwash> no?
[17:32] <Unit193> No, can cause issues.  Lubuntu did that by default, it caused issues there.
[17:33] <brainwash> maybe, but this particular user does not like to have those packages on his system
[17:33] <Unit193> The problem will be when someone installs using mini.iso and then the Xubuntu-core task, then on upgrade gets xubuntu-desktop. :P
[17:34] <brainwash> oh mmh
[17:34] <ochosi> :)
[17:34] <Unit193> I think I'm going to regret mentioning that.
[17:34] <ochosi> not a huge problem though, i mean folks using xubuntu-core are supposed to be semi-experts at least anyway
[17:39] <Unit193> ochosi: Yeah, but I believe if xubuntu-artwork, xubuntu-default-settings, and xfwm4 are installed, you get xubuntu-desktop on upgrade...
[17:40] <ochosi> you mean if all of them or one of them is installed?
[17:40] <Unit193> All.
[17:40] <ochosi> right
[17:40]  * ochosi shrugs
[17:40] <Unit193> So, do we want to fix this?  It would include talking to :other people:.
[17:40] <ochosi> well, how can it be fixed?
[17:41] <ochosi> (if it can be, i guess we should)
[17:41] <brainwash> tell us :D
[17:41] <ochosi> yeah, but come on, it's not *actual* talking
[17:41] <Unit193> Change the priority in DistUpgrade.cfg so that if those and xubuntu-core is installed, it gets us xubuntu-core.
[17:44] <Unit193> The concept of upgrades with -core isn't fun. :P
[17:45] <Unit193> KeyDependencies: Dependencies that are considered "key" dependencies of the meta-pkg to detect if it was installed but later removed by the user
[17:50] <Unit193> But I don't see a good, simple fix to this either.
[17:50] <ochosi> hmm
[17:50] <ochosi> well i'm no expert on this, so you better to to someone "who knows"
[17:50] <ochosi> s/to to/talk to/
[17:52] <Unit193> Hence, telking to creepers, mhmm.
[18:05] <ochosi> bluesabre: since we disabled all workspace features in xfwm4 by default, i guess we should disable the "wrap workspaces when reaching the screen edge" too
[18:05] <ochosi> bluesabre: from what i saw in 14.10 "with a dragged window" is still activated
[18:05] <ochosi> bluesabre: the other thing in x-d-s is adding a keyboard shortcut for whiskermenu (super+space)
[18:08] <elfy> ochosi: what's the matter with ctrl+esc 
[18:08] <elfy> which is what it is atm
[18:16] <ochosi> elfy: just an additional shortcut that mirrors what many other DEs have
[18:16] <ochosi> (at least unity does)
[18:16] <ochosi> (and if memory serves, gnome3 too)
[18:22] <ochosi> g2g
[18:22] <ochosi> have a nice evening everyone!
[18:30] <bluesabre> ochosi: good point
[18:31] <ochosi> just noticed cause tested the live session of 14.10 with a friend
[21:13] <brainwash> ochosi: you should read the last comment on bug 1287171
[21:14] <brainwash> some people just are not able to read all the previous comments before adding yet another comment :/