[05:09] <pitti> Good morning
[05:11] <didrocks> good morning
[05:14] <thumper> hey didrocks
[05:14] <thumper> o/ pitti
[05:14] <thumper> how goes things in the world of client?
[05:14] <didrocks> hey thumper, long time no talk ;)
[05:14] <thumper> I know, right?
[05:14] <didrocks> things are going well, how is it in the cloudy one? :)
[05:14] <thumper> no 'everyone together' things any more
[05:15] <thumper> busy busy
[05:15] <didrocks> yeah, I kind of miss that :(
[05:15] <thumper> the standard "everything takes longer than you think" problem
[05:15] <thumper> also, test fixing takes longer
[05:15] <thumper> dumb intermittent test failures
[05:15] <thumper> that sort of thing
[05:15] <didrocks> same everywhere it seems :)
[05:15] <thumper> I've spent all day chasing two intermittent bugs
[05:15] <thumper> I *think* I have fixed them
[05:15] <thumper> we'll see
[05:16] <didrocks> argh, and no easy reproducer?
[05:16] <thumper> nope
[05:16] <didrocks> I guess having a cloud setup to reproduce is even harder actually
[05:16] <thumper> this was just our unit tests :-|
[05:16] <didrocks> oh waow ::
[05:16] <didrocks> :/
[05:17] <didrocks> and did you get some love for Go, in the end?
[05:17] <pitti> hey thumper
[05:17] <didrocks> I tried for 2-3 days, didn't get that much of it I wanted
[05:17] <pitti> bonjour didrocks
[05:17] <didrocks> guten morgen pitti
[05:18] <thumper> yeah, I'm enjoying Go more now than I did in the past
[05:18] <thumper> I still prefer python for hacking scripts up
[05:18] <thumper> but I'd definitely use Go instead of C or C++ for most other tasks now
[05:19] <didrocks> oh, you have been converted! :)
[05:20] <thumper> I'm sure there are places where C++ is still better
[05:20] <thumper> but they are getting fewer
[05:20] <duflu> thumper: Am I the only one whose view of the language is tarnished by the obese rodent character? :)
[05:20] <didrocks> interesting
[05:20] <thumper> duflu: haha, maybe
[05:20]  * thumper chuckles
[05:21]  * duflu wants slick and fast languages (and mascots)
[05:21] <thumper> funnily enough, there are two big killer things for Go
[05:21] <thumper> compile speed
[05:21] <thumper> and gofmt
[05:22] <thumper> no more arguments about brace position, or where to put whitespace
[05:22] <thumper> I've learned to live with the other deficiencies
[05:22] <didrocks> my only thing I have some "old habits" and hard to get is this not real notion of class
[05:22] <RAOF> Rust looks pretty interesting, but much less actually-usable than Go.
[05:23] <didrocks> and it tried to half-hide the notion of reference… but not that much
[05:24] <thumper> yeah, pointers are still a thing
[07:10] <willcooke> morning
[07:10] <didrocks> hey willcooke! up early today
[07:10] <willcooke> yeah :(
[07:10] <willcooke> children
[07:10] <willcooke> :(
[07:11] <willcooke> or rather, child
[07:11] <didrocks> ahah, a good reason to wake up I guess :)
[07:12] <larsu> good morning!
[07:12] <didrocks> hey larsu :)
[07:12] <larsu> hi didrocks
[07:12] <larsu> morning willcooke!
[07:13] <larsu> how are you guys going?
[07:13]  * willcooke is sleepy and grumpy
[07:13] <willcooke> ;)
[07:13] <didrocks> time for a 1o1! :)
[07:13] <larsu> haha
[07:14] <willcooke> I feel sorry for FJKong, he's up first today
[07:15]  * FJKong agree willcooke
[07:15] <willcooke> :D
[07:16] <didrocks> you agree to be sorry for yourself? :)
[07:40] <JackYu> Laney, hi, could you please take a look the merge request at https://code.launchpad.net/~laney/ubuntu-cdimage/kylin/+merge/232829
[07:45] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[07:45] <seb128> Laney, hey, he's on holidays, should be back tomorrow
[07:45] <didrocks> JackYu: ^
[07:46] <pitti> bonjour seb128, comment vas-tu ? tu est retour à ton ancien temps de se lever :)
[07:47] <pitti> didrocks: ^ il doit te visiter à nouveau !
[07:47] <seb128> pitti, salut, je suis fatigué donc je dors un peu plus, je vais essayer de me réveiller plus tôt de nouveau quand ça ira mieux
[07:47] <JackYu> didrocks, seb128, :(
[07:47] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[07:47] <didrocks> pitti: ahah, j'ai fait la même blague avec le "seb128 est de retour en France, ça se voit" ;)
[07:47] <pitti> seb128: :( (I was just kidding)
[07:48] <willcooke> JackYu, he's likely to be on email later on - I will email him
[07:48] <JackYu> Bonjour tout le monde
[07:48] <seb128> pitti, no worry, I'm not sick, just a bit tired ;-)
[07:48] <JackYu> willcooke, thanks:)
[07:49] <seb128> willcooke, he has an IRC proxy, he's going to see the ping, no need of emails
[07:49] <seb128> imho
[07:49] <seb128> but he's flying atm/or just back
[07:49] <didrocks> morning JackYu
[07:49] <seb128> let him time to settle down
[07:51] <willcooke> seb128, ahh yes, I see that.  Ok, so JackYu Laney will get on to that asap
[07:52] <JackYu> great, thanks all.
[08:13] <seb128> larsu, do you think we need to hide the cog menus in GNOME apps if we add a menubar? or should we keep those widgets and just add the menubar for users who like to use those menus?
[08:13] <seb128> larsu, in evince you made it hide the button in the toolbar when the menus are displayed, but I wonder if we should just not bother/keep the ui and add the menu as well
[08:15] <larsu> seb128: hm, good question
[08:15] <larsu> my first instinct is to hide them
[08:15] <seb128> why?
[08:15] <larsu> which is why I did that in evince
[08:15] <larsu> not sure
[08:15] <larsu> I think becasue I dislike having duplicate ui
[08:16] <seb128> I would default to "let the widget like, those who know it/want to use it can"
[08:16] <seb128> especially that the menus are sort of hidden
[08:16] <larsu> and what's the point of having the menubar if you can just use the gear?
[08:16] <seb128> the point is why we add those menus back
[08:16] <larsu> but like I said. Good Question
[08:16] <seb128> consistency between apsp
[08:16] <didrocks> does the gear cover exactly the same items than the menubar?
[08:16] <larsu> seb128: I don't have a thought out opinion yet
[08:16] <seb128> it's where they traditionally
[08:16] <seb128> it's where they traditionally are
[08:16] <larsu> true, true
[08:17] <larsu> didrocks: not always
[08:17] <seb128> didrocks, as you want
[08:17] <larsu> ubt usally
[08:17] <larsu> *usually
[08:17] <seb128> didrocks, we create the menubar for unity, so we can put whatever we want in there
[08:17] <larsu> often they leave away stuff that people know by now and never use the menus for
[08:17] <seb128> I think we did cover everything that is in the cog
[08:17] <larsu> such as cut/copy/paste
[08:18] <didrocks> I guess what seb128 says makes sense, hiding the cog then, but then, there is the question of chromium and other things with the sandwich menu…
[08:18] <seb128> didrocks, I was in favor of not hiding it :p
[08:18] <seb128> chromium has both
[08:19] <larsu> seb128: do we patch it to have a traditional menubar or does that come from upstream?
[08:19] <seb128> no idea
[08:19] <seb128> question for qengho
[08:19] <seb128> or didrocks
[08:19] <didrocks> it's starting to a be a common pattern (even on the web), so maybe yeah, keeping it would make sense. Sad for the duplication with menus, but they are hidden anyways, so we can take them as "shortcuts through the HUD"
[08:19] <larsu> *cough*
[08:19] <didrocks> larsu: it's from upstream
[08:19] <larsu> oh, wow
[08:20] <didrocks> so yeah, they do have menus + cog
[08:20] <larsu> I wonder how new style ubuntu desktop apps will handle this
[08:20] <larsu> will they have traditional menus?
[08:20] <didrocks> they will have HUD content, not sure for menus
[08:20] <seb128> let's see the day we do a developer desktop
[08:20] <larsu> will unity8 look similar (with the menus in the panel) to what we have today?
[08:20] <seb128> currently the new desktop is one of tablet users
[08:20] <seb128> those apps are not complex enough to have menus
[08:20] <didrocks> but I guess export menus is mainly for HUD nowdays
[08:20] <seb128> neither cog nor menubars
[08:20] <larsu> right, currently
[08:21] <larsu> didrocks: ya
[08:21] <larsu> seb128: I'm asking because if we'd know how unity8 will do it we might accomodate for that
[08:21] <larsu> like, leave the cog for transition if we're going cog as well
[08:21] <seb128> larsu, my gut feeling is that we don't know, nobody looked at that yet
[08:21] <seb128> we focus on the desktop-for-tablet-users atm
[08:21] <didrocks> most of the platform, android included has a cog anyway
[08:22] <seb128> if anything
[08:22] <didrocks> so it can be an expected user pattern
[08:22] <seb128> but afaik design didn't even focus on unity8-desktop yet
[08:22]  * mpt drinks a bottle of vodka
[08:22] <seb128> mpt, hey
[08:22] <seb128> mpt, :-(
[08:22] <mpt> Con-versh-ince!!!!
[08:22] <seb128> didrocks, I hope we are not doomed at copying android
[08:22] <didrocks> it's more Con-versh-hips ;)
[08:23]  * seb128 hates cog menus on desktop
[08:23] <larsu> so does mpt...
[08:23] <seb128> they might make sense on small screens
[08:23] <didrocks> seb128: the web has it, so we'll have it anyways
[08:23] <seb128> but a menubar is much easier to access, would it only because it's always in the corner
[08:23] <didrocks> even if it's only in a browser
[08:23] <seb128> didrocks, that doesn't mean it's not a sucky user experience and than we can't do better
[08:24] <didrocks> well, people will still browse the web :)
[08:24] <seb128> yeah, and still hate it
[08:24] <seb128> we can do better ;-)
[08:24] <mpt> didrocks, the Web has cog menus *because* by its nature it can’t have decent pulldown menus
[08:24] <larsu> like I said, I can see leaving them there if we'll use cog menus in the future
[08:24] <larsu> otherwise I don't see the point of duplicating stuff
[08:24] <mpt> though Google Docs puts a lot of effort into trying
[08:25] <larsu> mpt: those menus are atrocious
[08:25] <seb128> mpt, ok, the question is, if a GNOME app has a cog menu, and we distro patch a classic menubar as well, should we hide the cog under Unity or just have both available
[08:25] <larsu> but then, so are the rest of those apps
[08:25] <mpt> I remember trying to implement hierarchical subsubsubsubmenus for Launchpad
[08:26]  * mpt gets another bottle of vodka
[08:26] <larsu> I feel sorry for you :)
[08:26] <mpt> seb128, I would say, hide the cog
[08:26] <seb128> mpt, thanks
[08:28] <didrocks> seb128: just a note on the cog menu on android, it's not all or none. You have three properties: "always in the actionbar (the bar containing the title)", "if enough room, otherwise cog" (depending on screen size), "always in cog"
[08:28] <seb128> didrocks, they work fine on android because you use you finger and it's easy to click on them
[08:28] <seb128> didrocks, I hate using cogs on the web in a desktop webbrowser
[08:29] <seb128> didrocks, it's not in an easy target like a corner
[08:29] <larsu> mpt: I agree with you that we should hide them on our current desktop. But in general, I think cog menus are preferable to the global menu bar
[08:29] <seb128> didrocks, it's also less handy to navigate than a menubar
[08:29] <larsu> mpt: especially on unity, where we don't even show it
[08:29] <didrocks> seb128: I don't agree on the navigating part (I hate menu for that, properties are in File, Edit or Project?), but yeah, agreed about the easy target one
[08:29] <larsu> the problem with cogs is that you have one menu that contains all the things
[08:30] <larsu> and you have no idea whether the thing you're looking for is in there
[08:30] <seb128> didrocks, a flat menu with 30 items and 5 submenus is not easy to "find the right submenu" than it is in a menubar
[08:30] <didrocks> seb128: if you have a flat menu with 30 items, there is an issue with your apps IMHO :)
[08:30] <seb128> didrocks, or that you are libreoffice
[08:31] <seb128> or google doc
[08:31] <seb128> it needs those items
[08:31] <seb128> those do a lot of actions
[08:31] <didrocks> you don't need to put everything you have in a menu in the cog
[08:31] <seb128> well, then you have a tradtionnal menubar :-)
[08:31] <didrocks> or subscreens
[08:31] <didrocks> like preferences one
[08:31] <seb128> or 3 toolbars stacked with stack of icons
[08:32] <larsu> office 95!
[08:32] <seb128> well, office has lot of normal actions
[08:32] <seb128> those shouldn't be in subscreens
[08:32] <didrocks> I don't think you use 3 toolbars stacked with stack of icons on a daily basis, even on an office app
[08:32] <seb128> look at the edit menu of writer
[08:33] <seb128> how do you decide what actions are used or not?
[08:33] <larsu> seb128: http://weblog.sinteur.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/WordToolbars.jpg
[08:33] <seb128> larsu, ;-)
[08:34] <larsu> if only we had some way to search through them!
[08:34] <larsu> maybe if I press my Alt key..
[08:34] <didrocks> :)
[08:35] <larsu> anyway, back to the original question.
[08:35] <seb128> didrocks, well, even google doc has traditionnal menus, and if you look at insert/format/tools in a document, they have a least a good 30 items
[08:35] <didrocks> seb128: indeed, but most of same mirror what you get in the toolbar or right click
[08:36] <seb128> toolbar has like 15 items
[08:36] <larsu> I've seen lots of people use that menu, though
[08:36] <seb128> I do
[08:36] <larsu> (anecdotal blah blah)
[08:36] <larsu> I don't, but I don't use gdocs
[08:36] <seb128> anyway let's agree to disagree
[08:36] <seb128> I find menubar useful and I'm glad even google decide to keep them when it's useful ;-)
[08:37] <didrocks> (btw, little tip: Alt + / enables to search the menu)
[08:37] <seb128> didrocks, where/how?
[08:37] <seb128> doesn't work in firefox+gdoc
[08:37] <didrocks> seb128: google doc?
[08:37] <didrocks> works in chrome
[08:38] <seb128> k
[08:38] <larsu> welcome to the web!
[08:38] <seb128> I guess another custom hack that works only in chrome :/
[08:38] <didrocks> possibly, yeah
[08:39] <didrocks> I could test if firefox wasn't freezing at startup here :/
[08:39]  * didrocks kills and restarts
[08:40] <didrocks> (indeed, doesn't work on firefox)
[08:41] <seb128> :-(
[08:41] <seb128> larsu, k, sorry, back to the topic ... do you think we should resolve other questions, or just hide the cog as mpt recommended?
[08:42] <larsu> seb128: no just that question and I think we should go with mpt's advise
[08:42] <seb128> +1
[08:42] <larsu> *advice
[08:42] <larsu> I hope he didn't drink himself into a coma yet
[08:50] <mpt> (×__×)
[13:29] <seb128> larsu, so, you special cases california in the theme, are they doing something really special, or is that an open door to have to add other similar hacks for other applications?
[13:30] <larsu> seb128: their panes are eventtboxes
[13:30] <seb128> do you know/if that's common?
[13:30] <larsu> we used to have a rule that just set the bg of GtkEventBox (for deja-dup)
[13:30] <larsu> but setting that breaks selections in list boxes
[13:30] <larsu> which are used all over the place
[13:30] <larsu> not very common
[13:30] <larsu> I don't know why deja dup uses them
[13:31] <seb128> k
[13:31] <seb128> I guess we can land that and see what issues it creates
[13:31] <larsu> yes, that would be cool
[13:31] <seb128> I've the feeling we are going to find other eventbox users :/
[13:31] <larsu> probably
[13:32] <larsu> I've investigated how we could fix o-s
[13:32] <larsu> but I really don't want to
[13:32] <larsu> and it's quite a bit of work
[13:32] <larsu> but doable
[13:32] <seb128> k
[13:32] <seb128> maybe you could dump that knowledge in a launchpad bug?
[13:32] <seb128> it would avoid loosing it/having to repeat, and we would have that recorded somewhere
[13:33] <larsu> there's not that much knowledge besides "don't use native windows"
[13:33] <larsu> but making a bug might be a good idea anyway
[13:33] <larsu> so that we can track progress if there will be some
[13:33] <larsu> :)
[13:33] <seb128> right
[13:34] <seb128> have a place to state "that's what we should, patches are welcome" as well ;-)
[13:34] <seb128> who knows
[13:34] <larsu> Company might jump in and write it for us!
[13:35] <seb128> lol
[13:53] <larsu> seb128: bug #1367764
[13:53] <seb128> larsu, thanks
[14:02] <seb128> larsu, ok, so the approach of "make GtkHeaderBar not the decoration and stack it as a toolbar seems to work nicely enough
[14:02] <seb128> Laney, ^
[14:02] <seb128> just did that for evince as an experimentation, and it's looking alright
[14:02] <seb128> we might be able to have small patches that allows us to unblock apps updates
[14:03] <larsu> I agree that this looks good for some apps
[14:03] <larsu> but you'll need to remove the title
[14:03] <larsu> that would be really nice
[14:04] <seb128> larsu, http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/evince.png
[14:04] <seb128> that's 3.13.91 on utopic
[14:04] <larsu> perfect!
[14:04] <seb128> :-)
[14:04] <larsu> thanks!
[14:04] <seb128> yw!
[14:20] <seb128> larsu, Laney, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/1367769
[14:21] <seb128> attente_, oh, that might be useful for you, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/utopic/+source/unity-system-compositor/0.0.5+14.10.20140910-0ubuntu1 :-)
[14:23] <larsu> seb128: cool. I'll have a look
[14:30] <didrocks> willcooke: popey: https://plus.google.com/+DidierRoche/posts/7LpwuwqDJMa
[14:30] <didrocks> popey: try to take my server down! static page + cloudflares
[14:31] <popey>  ✔ Challenge accepted
[14:32] <didrocks> :)
[14:32]  * davmor2 hits the server power lead with an axe,  Done!
[14:32] <didrocks> davmor2: no no, only legit ways!
[14:34] <attente_> seb128: thanks, i saw that, but didn't manage to test it :)
[14:36] <larsu> seb128: the changelog diff looks suspivious
[14:36] <larsu> *suspicious
[14:37] <seb128> larsu, we usually drop all ubuntu changelog entry (at least in desktop land) when we resync on debian
[14:37] <seb128> that's a bit controversal, but it's annoying to merge those, and those entries are recorded in launchpad/would be dropped if we had a direct sync anyway
[14:37] <larsu> okay, that makes sense
[14:38] <larsu> I'm glad we can get rid of that monster patch
[14:38]  * larsu builds
[14:38] <seb128> yeah, me too
[14:39] <seb128> larsu, btw I opened https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=736419 let's see how that goes
[14:39] <seb128> larsu, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=736420 as well
[14:39] <seb128> but I didn't add the patch, because I do the getenv XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP != GNOME trick
[14:39] <seb128> which I guess upstream is going to not like
[14:39] <davmor2> didrocks: spoilsport http://davmor2.co.uk/~davmor2/hates-what.png did you mean to put hates?
[14:40] <larsu> seb128: yeah I saw. We still don't have a good way of doing this
[14:40] <larsu> I think desrt said to reuse the dialogusesheader xsetting
[14:40] <popey> didrocks: you should get a bit of traffic now.
[14:40] <didrocks> davmor2: hum? not sure to follow you :)
[14:41] <didrocks>  16:41:03 up 8 days, 52 min,  1 user,  load average: 0,14, 0,40, 0,69
[14:41] <didrocks> popey: try harder ^
[14:41] <didrocks> :)
[14:41] <popey> hehe
[14:41] <seb128> larsu, I guess that's the closest we have
[14:41] <didrocks> popey: but yeah, tail -f on /var/log/apache/… is crazy
[14:42]  * popey adds reddit to the list
[14:42] <larsu> seb128: ya...
[14:42] <didrocks> popey: not sure if LAS mentionned it btw…
[14:42] <larsu> seb128: we could make a new one, but I'm not sure that's worth it
[14:42] <didrocks> popey: I'm still 3 episods late
[14:43] <didrocks> davmor2: oh, seen it! silly you :)
[14:43] <davmor2> didrocks: haha
[14:45] <seb128> larsu, right
[14:45] <seb128> ok, I'm out for some exercice, bbl
[14:45] <larsu> seb128: I'll probably be out when you come back, but I'll be back later. Enjoy!
[14:49] <seb128> larsu, thanks, you too
[14:49] <seb128> larsu, no hurry for evince, it needs a FFe/likely Laney to be back to discuss it
[14:49] <seb128> so tomorrow for example
[14:49] <seb128> bbl
[14:49] <larsu> seb128: I'm building and testing it
[14:50] <larsu> seb128: and read the patches. I'll comment on those parts before I leave
[14:50] <seb128> larsu, thanks, feel free to comment on the merge request
[14:50] <seb128> great
[14:54] <willcooke> popey, could you pimp it via the official Ubuntu accounts too please (if you haven't already)
[14:54] <popey> already done
[14:54] <willcooke> nice one
[14:54] <popey> twitter, fb, G+, reddit...
[14:54] <willcooke> :D
[14:55] <willcooke> nice
[14:56] <didrocks> thanks popey ;)
[14:56] <popey> np
[14:56] <didrocks> you should create an app for that :p
[15:04] <willcooke> going to try and install a cheapo laptop battery I got off ebay.  If I'm not back in 5 mins assume my laptop has exploded.  didrocks - you can have my stuff
[15:05] <didrocks> even the horse head I hope! \o/
[15:09] <willcooke> no electrical fires \o/
[15:11] <didrocks> no horse head for me then :p
[15:11] <willcooke> :)
[15:11] <didrocks> do you know if the battery has the promoted charge?
[15:11] <willcooke> how do you mean?
[15:12] <didrocks> like, some manufacturers don't really deliver the mAh that is written on the label
[15:12] <willcooke> ah
[15:13] <willcooke> well, the original Lenovo battery claimed (according to power statistics) a designed energy of something like 60 Wh
[15:13] <willcooke> but now it says it can only hold 48
[15:14] <willcooke> the new battery says the designed energy is only 48
[15:14] <willcooke> :(
[15:14] <willcooke> so I think I've replaced like for like
[15:14] <willcooke> but it was only 15 quid or something
[15:14] <willcooke> plus it's got to do its first full charge-discharge cycle
[15:14] <didrocks> well, see how it will behave anyway, for this price… :)
[15:14] <didrocks> yeah
[15:15] <willcooke> so I'm hopeful it will improve a bit
[15:15] <willcooke> On my 6 cell battery I'm only getting about 2 hours of casual use
[15:15] <willcooke> I'm sure it used to be more like 4
[15:15] <willcooke> (X220 with an i5 )
[15:15] <didrocks> yeah, it's not exactly proportinal
[15:16] <didrocks> proportional*
[15:16] <didrocks> mine is still 73Wh (9 cell), was 86.6Wh when bought
[15:16] <didrocks> 2 years and half ago
[15:16] <didrocks> so, quite happy with default lenovo battery (touching woods…)
[15:16] <willcooke> :)
[15:17] <davmor2> didrocks: wow you have a wooden lenovo
[15:17] <willcooke> At the very least, I've got a back up battery which can see me through a couple of hours
[15:17] <didrocks> yep ;)
[15:17] <didrocks> davmor2: heh, yeah, I had high expectations after my dell I needed to put in the hoven…
[15:18] <didrocks> (cooking the GPU)
[15:18] <davmor2> didrocks: ouch
[16:59]  * willcooke -> EOD
[16:59] <willcooke> ta ta
[19:28]  * Sweetshark just counted that LibreOffice will play some 55 events around the world this year ...
[19:28] <Sweetshark> (and that number is likely rather moving up)
[21:42] <robert_ancell> desrt, are you familiar with sd-bus?