[00:26] <MurkyBanana> hi daftykins
[00:26] <ikonia> he's not in here
[00:27] <ikonia> oh he is
[00:27] <ikonia> what's up ?
[00:28] <ikonia> daftykins: what's up ?
[00:28] <daftykins> i was just directed toward the channel log - and feel greatly inconvenienced seeing that conversation in PM was taken here and shared.
[00:29] <daftykins> that's not only bad netiquette, but in my opinion wrong on a personal level
[00:30] <ikonia> ?
[00:30] <daftykins> the log also points out that there are those of you who take an interest in the management of my conduct in a way that's far less than objective
[00:30] <ikonia> sorry, don't know what you're on about, any chanc eyou could fill me in ?
[00:31] <daftykins> i was PM'd with regard to my conduct in #ubuntu - and my conversation there was pasted here.
[00:32] <ikonia> I've certainly not seen that/aware of it
[00:33] <ikonia> probably best to just talk to the guy you're not happy with
[00:33] <daftykins> well that's not relevant
[00:33] <daftykins> my comments obviously refer to more than one user
[00:33] <ikonia> .....ok
[00:33] <ikonia> not obviously as I don't know what you're talking about
[00:33] <ikonia> sorry
[00:34] <daftykins> obvious given that i used the words 'there are those of you'
[00:34] <daftykins> anyway, i'm not getting sidelined into some grammatical debate
[00:34] <ikonia> ok, you seem a bit annoyed, understandable, and as I don't know what this is about, i'll back away as I don't want to cause any more angry
[00:34] <rww> ikonia: it's about http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/09/14/%23ubuntu-ops.html
[00:35] <daftykins> i'm disappointed in those mentioned, i wouldn't say anger.
[00:35] <rww> and since I'm assuming that I'm "far less than objective" because I have an opinion, i'm not dealing with it
[00:36] <daftykins> rww: you weren't the target of that comment there, but it's useful to know that we can't have a conversation about the issues i've raised
[00:36] <ikonia> daftykins: ok, so some of the operators have had a conversation that you're not happy about, I understand that, what would you like to happen ?
[00:36] <rww> daftykins: well, as you can see, I tend to strongly agree that you need to take a break. since your response to bazhang was... apparently not positive... i figured my similar opinion also would not be
[00:37] <rww> s/$/ welcome/
[00:37] <rww> anyways, my apologies for misinterpreting
[00:37] <daftykins> that idea isn't the current topic, sir
[00:38] <ikonia> daftykins: what would you like to happen ?
[00:38] <daftykins> tell me, is it normal that you have someone approach a user privately who then reproduces their conversation in here to you all?
[00:38] <ikonia> certainly not the norm
[00:38] <rww> and as far as posting PMs goes: while I agree that posting such PMs publicly was not particularly tactful, I think it's reasonable that such conversations be shared with ops in general (e.g. in our unlogged channel)
[00:39] <rww> so I will LART bazhang a bit for doing that
[00:40] <daftykins> it's evident from the log that he was developing a bit of an issue with my actions at the time before he decided to contact me, in which case it was definitely not appropriate that he did
[00:40] <daftykins> which is what i would guess led to the unsavoury result
[00:41] <ikonia> ok - so what would you like to happen
[00:41] <ikonia> how can we make this better for you ?
[00:41] <daftykins> can you calm down on the pressuring please, i'm not exactly operating at full capacity right now
[00:41] <ikonia> ok, perhaps best to come back when you're feeling better
[00:42] <ikonia> last thing I want to do is make you feel worse
[00:42] <daftykins> no i can cope with this conversation as long as you don't keep subverting it
[00:42] <daftykins> :)
[00:42] <ikonia> then please tell us what you want
[00:42] <ikonia> how we can make it better for you
[00:42] <rww> suggestion: 1) daftykins, take a few days off, IRC sucks when one isn't doing well (I know firsthand), 2) everyone else (including me) should ponder appropriate behavior in public channels
[00:43] <daftykins> ikonia: you're really not helping :P
[00:43] <daftykins> obviously i don't want to hear of a repeat of this, you guys are not above 'the law' and so shouldn't act like this
[00:44] <ikonia> daftykins: I've got a better idea then
[00:44] <daftykins> personal events in my life have no bearing on your 'job'
[00:44] <ikonia> how about a.) you leave this channel and come back when you can communicate better
[00:44] <ikonia> I'm getting a bit tired of your attitude now
[00:44] <ikonia> asking how we can make it better for you is not trying to cause a problem
[00:44] <daftykins> seriously? i just want to say my piece and you're badgering me
[00:44] <ikonia> it's trying to understand what we can do to make it feel better
[00:45] <ikonia> yeah, seriously
[00:45] <daftykins> there's not even that much i want to say but you keep interrupting
[00:45] <ikonia> then go
[00:46] <daftykins> anywho in addition, i have an issue with seeing myself developing some 'bad record' when you guys have no way of allowing anyone to create a good record
[00:46] <daftykins> no user can say to you, oh hey user x helped with so-and-so query - they did good
[00:46] <ikonia> errr we see that all the time
[00:47] <daftykins> so you only have a neutral reference point and then negatives
[00:47] <ikonia> no we don't
[00:47] <daftykins> 'that'?
[00:47] <ikonia> we see great people all the time
[00:47] <ikonia> and have high opinions of a lot of good people
[00:47] <rww> amusingly, we get people in here complaining that we play favorites and let regulars get away with things that randoms don't
[00:47] <daftykins> purely off your own memory though?
[00:47] <ikonia> no
[00:47] <daftykins> or you have some kind of system...
[00:48] <ikonia> off logs, repeated good contributions, memory, discussions with others
[00:48] <ikonia> a mixture of many things
[00:48] <daftykins> seems unlikely that you would trawl logs for good things versus bad :)
[00:48] <ikonia> we don't trawl logs for good / bad
[00:49] <ikonia> unless there is a specific reason to check a log
[00:50] <daftykins> either way, i seem to be getting in the crosshairs a bit too much
[00:50] <daftykins> and that log showed some a little more heated than others
[00:51] <ikonia> what is it you actually want ?
[00:51] <daftykins> to make the above feelings known, which i've now done
[00:51] <ikonia> ok, I'm sorry you feel that, but part of that is down to your incorrect assumptions
[00:52] <daftykins> ikonia: i'm genuinely at a loss as to why i've aggravated you just by wanting to discuss some things by the way.
[00:52] <daftykins> oh? which assumptions were they?
[00:52] <ikonia> honestly ?
[00:52] <ikonia> that we don't have good perceptions of people
[00:53] <ikonia> I dra
[00:53] <ikonia> I dread to ask, but I will
[00:54] <ikonia> "how can we make you feel better about this"?
[00:54] <daftykins> sec my cat is attacking something she shouldn't
[00:55] <ikonia> no-one wants you feeling like it's all negative peceptions, so have a think and if there is something to discuss about how we can make you feel a bit better about things within the channel, we can discuss it
[00:55] <daftykins> well i seemed to manage to even get you riled purely from wanting to have a chat :P
[00:55] <daftykins> so that's a little concerning
[00:55] <ikonia> not really
[00:55] <ikonia> you got me riles up because you describve the team as "fuck tards"
[00:56] <ikonia> brag to a troll channel
[00:56] <ikonia> which provokes a troll abuse hit and run
[00:56] <ikonia> and then come in with a sad story
[00:56] <daftykins> i can't control the actions of others, i was pretty annoyed at that though
[00:56] <ikonia> yeah you can
[00:56] <ikonia> a.) the team is fuck tards
[00:56] <ikonia> you said that - you can control your self
[00:57] <ikonia> b.) you know the people in the channel - you know their attitude, yet you still chose to do it, knowing what it often causes
[00:57] <ikonia> you control that
[00:57] <daftykins> do what?
[00:57] <ikonia> so again - your sad story of a pm - which I accept isn't nice, and I'm sure we can do better with that, doesn't really make me shed tears
[00:58] <daftykins> hmm, you're changing tack a fair bit
[00:58] <ikonia> no, I'm not
[00:58] <ikonia> you've come in to complain, I get that, I'm happy to help make it better
[00:58] <ikonia> but it's hard to take the "negative peception" complaint seriously, when you describe the people you are trying ot talk to as fucktards to a known troll put
[00:58] <ikonia> pit
[00:58] <daftykins> but anyway, i'd be nice if there'd be some up front discussion prior to any drastic actions be taken, shall we say
[00:58] <ikonia> you want respect, and polite conversation, think about the peception you give out
[00:59] <ikonia> daftykins: it would be nice if there was some discussion before you call the team fucktards
[00:59] <daftykins> sounds more like you're talking about channel users rather than you ops, now
[00:59] <ikonia> daftykins: no, I'm talking about you
[00:59] <ikonia> your actions
[00:59] <ikonia> your way you want to discuss things
[00:59] <daftykins> i'm not going to defend a frustrated remark on seeing what conduct went on.
[00:59] <ikonia> daftykins: good,
[01:00] <ikonia> then I'm not going to defend an op sharing his concerns about your comments with the team
[01:00] <ikonia> in future we'll try to do that better in private
[01:00] <daftykins> i didn't even know what channel he was from when i got PM'd
[01:00] <ikonia> so ?
[01:00] <ikonia> I'm sure he talked to you about it and explained the channel
[01:01] <ikonia> or what does it matter
[01:01] <daftykins> nope
[01:01] <daftykins> no intro, just a riddle of advice which seemed to come from nowhere
[01:02] <daftykins> it was all a bit of a mess really
[01:02] <ikonia> thats easy to clean up
[01:02] <ikonia> I'd hardly call that an issue
[01:02] <daftykins> it's just really quite disappointing to see how you guys function
[01:02] <daftykins> now i mean i'd been warned, but i'd not seen it first hand
[01:03] <ikonia> thanks for sharing your dissapointment
[01:03] <ikonia> I'm pretty concerned how you function / or don't function to be honest
[01:03] <ikonia> I'd always supported your help, but I'm questioning that now
[01:03] <daftykins> that sounds a little personal
[01:03] <ikonia> yes, it is
[01:03] <ikonia> I'm concerned about how you function within the IRC channels/don't function
[01:03] <ikonia> to clarify
[01:04] <daftykins> supported my help? what kind
[01:04] <ikonia> you know the negative peception stuff you referenced earlier
[01:04] <ikonia> I've always said positive stuff
[01:04] <ikonia> (certainly that I can remember)
[01:04] <daftykins> i'm genuinely saddened to hear you say that's changed, i don't really see how i've done that
[01:05] <ikonia> ahh well
[01:05] <ikonia> not to worry
[01:05] <ikonia> however I fully understand your dissapointed about the percieved poor communication
[01:06] <ikonia> I'm sure we will do better to make sure private conversations aren't shared in a public channel
[01:06] <ikonia> and that there is a better introduction to a private conversation
[01:06] <daftykins> that would definitely be useful.
[01:06] <ikonia> I know I've certianly not done the best introductions in pm's in the best
[01:07] <ikonia> can't promise it won't happen, as humans slip up, but it's certainly not the norm
[01:07] <daftykins> a good analogy i think would be that of police visiting a property, you know who they are from the uniform. on IRC - not everyone's going to sit there and whois everyone - if that would even give anything away
[01:07] <daftykins> so yeah, wouldn't hurt for a brief exchange with PMs
[01:07] <ikonia> I'm not really interested in an analogy
[01:08] <daftykins> wow
[01:08] <ikonia> I'm interested in not sharing pm data incorrectly, and being more clear / better introduction in pm
[01:09] <daftykins> right, well it's becoming pretty apparent that you'd rather i be on my way given that tone there
[01:09] <ikonia> yes,
[01:09] <ikonia> personally I would
[01:09] <daftykins> this is just adding to the negatives with you guys, FYI
[01:10] <ikonia> FYI: it's added to the negative of you FYI
[01:10] <ikonia> just being honest
[01:10] <daftykins> mmmhmm, that's a little school level
[01:10] <ikonia> not at all
[01:10] <ikonia> it's not tit for tat
[01:10] <ikonia> it's the truth
[01:11] <ikonia> if you want me to lie and saw "I'd love you to stay and blow up an mistake with a pm" then sure,
[01:11] <daftykins> sorry i don't follow that sentence
[01:11] <ikonia> but I don't think that will help anyone
[01:11] <ikonia> fully understand about the pm though, and I'm sure we can and will do better with that
[01:12] <daftykins> and hopefully open up a dialogue before any drastic actions too
[01:12] <ikonia> drastic actions ?
[01:12] <ikonia> it was a pm ?
[01:12] <ikonia> no-ones done anything drastic
[01:12] <daftykins> i'm referring to the future
[01:12] <daftykins> hence the 'before' bit
[01:12] <ikonia> depends
[01:13] <ikonia> if you chose to speak to "US" before ranting in other channels and calling the team names, I'm sure that will open a dialog
[01:13] <ikonia> if you chose to continue to behave as you are doing, I can't see it being helpful
[01:14] <daftykins> as in right this moment, coming in here?
[01:14] <ikonia> that would be a start
[01:14] <ikonia> or talking to the people involved
[01:14] <ikonia> whatever you feel comfortable with
[01:14] <daftykins> no, i'm asking if that's what you mean by 'behave as you are doing'
[01:14] <ikonia> check the advice you where given from rww and bazhang
[01:15] <ikonia> rather than go over it again
[01:15] <ikonia> or better still, talk to them in more detail
[01:15] <ikonia> (if it's unclear)
[01:16] <daftykins> nah i just didn't follow your sentences there for the first couple of reads
[01:16] <ikonia> ok
[01:17] <daftykins> ok, ta-ra for now then
[01:17] <ikonia> bye
 when did ubuntu switch from main/contrib/nonfree to main/restricted/universe/multiverse?
[01:34] <bazhang> is he confusing debain?
[01:35] <ikonia> looks that way
[11:27] <bazhang> !info selinux
[11:28] <bazhang> how is selinux not supported
[11:28] <ikonia> he's not using selinux
[11:28] <ikonia> he's trying to set up scientific linux for his intern job
[11:28] <ikonia> I spoke to him about it 2 times already stating that #ubuntu does not support SL
[11:28] <ikonia> he agreed
[11:29] <ikonia> and he keeps using #ubuntu for his "intern" support so he doesn't have to ask his mentors
[11:29] <ikonia> eg: setting up a HP pro-curve switch
[11:29] <ikonia> he's been spoken to about using #ubuntu as #intern-support at least 5 times
[11:29] <ikonia> and about SL 2 more times
[16:18] <quantibility> huh?