[00:15] <bluesabre> gigolo's default terminal is xterm
[00:15] <bluesabre> why does nobody complain? :)
[00:20] <ali1234> what is gigolo?
[00:22] <bluesabre> basically a frontend for mount
[00:22] <ali1234> i'm guessing the answer is because nobody uses it?
[00:22] <bluesabre> probably
[00:22] <ali1234> thunar auto mounts anything anyway
[00:23] <ali1234> i had to go into the help->about to even figure out what gigolo does
[00:23] <bluesabre> Its useful for the bookmark manager at the very least... though I'd argue its usefulness is going away
[00:24] <ali1234> it could be if the bookmarks actually showed up in thunar or places plugin, but they dont
[00:24] <ali1234> it isn't a mismatch between gtk2/gtk3 bookmark locations either
[00:24] <ali1234> it seems to store bookmarks privately
[00:24] <bluesabre> yup
[00:27] <bluesabre> ali1234: btw, do you know how to enable mininize/max with gtk 3.12 headerbars?
[00:27] <ali1234> no
[00:27] <ali1234> i know how to patch out headerbars completely if that's any use?
[00:28] <bluesabre> yeah, I knew you had that part down :)
[00:37]  * skellat notes that gigolo is great for mounting OBEX/Bluetooth things to deal with when interrogating cell phones
[00:38] <ali1234> indicator-bluetooth and blueman-applet both do that though, in a much more obvious way
[02:04] <bluesabre> xubuntu-docs uploaded, yay!
[02:05]  * bluesabre returns to what remains of his weekend
[08:50] <ochosi> morning everyone
[08:50] <knome> hey ochosi 
[10:02] <bluesabre> hey all
[10:02] <ochosi> hey bluesabre 
[11:46] <elfy> so ...
[11:46] <elfy> does gdm still work properly :D 
[11:47] <elfy> just trying today's daily now
[11:48] <bluesabre> any luck, or still broken?
[11:48] <elfy> still installing bluesabre 
[11:48] <elfy> I see respins in final beta's future ;)
[11:49] <elfy> last week - hardware installs worked ok, it was only vm's with an issue
[11:49] <elfy> but most people test with those ... 
[11:49] <bluesabre> I think everybody needs one tonight... lots of things are landing this morning
[11:49] <elfy> the beta's not up on the tracker yet anyway
[11:51] <bluesabre> did a few package tests last night, found a new bug in blueman (maybe, it already had >70 bugs)
[11:51] <elfy> few people test that 
[11:51] <bluesabre> it looked like mine was the first reported result
[11:52] <elfy> yea
[11:52] <elfy> I've given up with package testing this cycle
[11:52] <bluesabre> I'll probably test some more stuff tonight, time permitting
[11:53] <bluesabre> anyway, gotta run now, bbl
[11:53] <elfy> cya
[11:54] <elfy> ftr - image still busted for vbox
[11:56] <slickymasterWork> thnaks for the heads up on beta elfy 
[11:56] <slickymasterWork> I was planning on doing some test after lunch
[11:56] <elfy> slickymasterWork: only got dailies currently
[11:57] <elfy> you *can* start desktop with service lightdm start
[11:57] <slickymasterWork> I know, but as far as testing goes, are you interested?
[11:58] <elfy> I'll be more interested in getting beta results
[11:58] <elfy> but anything is good :)
[11:58] <slickymasterWork> if yes, I'll download the ISO while having lunch at home
[11:59] <slickymasterWork> ok, I'll do it then, at least it will serve to increase the tests report numbers
[11:59] <elfy> up to you slickymasterWork 
[11:59] <slickymasterWork> elfy: ^^
[11:59] <elfy> :)
[11:59] <elfy> yep
[11:59] <slickymasterWork> cy after lunch elfy 
[11:59] <slickymasterWork> off to lunch ->
[11:59] <elfy> cya later - I'll be gone 
[11:59] <slickymasterWork> have fun and be safe
[12:41] <knome> we should create a wikipage that lists all software that we ship/care about and where their translations are being done to encourage people translating
[12:43] <knome> and/or update the "get involved" page for translations
[13:15] <knome> ok, improved the latter mentioned
[13:15] <knome> http://xubuntu.org/contribute/translating/
[14:08] <slickymasterWork> hey knome, great idea /work re: "Get involved" page for translations
[14:13] <knome> ta :)
[14:13] <knome> now we only lack a listing
[14:13] <knome> want to set up a pad?
[14:13] <slickymasterWork> elfy, the daily doesn't boot into graphical interface only on installation or did it also happens with the Try option?
[14:14] <elfy> only once installed - the livesession works fine 
[14:14] <elfy> at least for me
[14:14] <slickymasterWork> also for me, and as I started with the Try option I just wanted to be sure
[14:15] <slickymasterWork> will do knome, in a few minutes
[14:15] <elfy> slickymasterWork: yep from livesession try & install both work 
[14:15] <slickymasterWork> ok
[14:15] <knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-apps-translations
[14:15] <slickymasterWork> lol knome 
[14:16] <knome> i'm a man of action
[14:20] <slickymasterWork> yeaps, one can hardly breath 
[14:23] <slickymasterWork> knome, what about the ones that are translated through Transifex like Whisker? I think they also should be added
[14:26] <knome> yep
[14:26] <knome> we should have the full listing of projects of which translations we care about
[14:26] <knome> the xfce stuff is fine with a link to i18n.xfce.org
[14:26] <slickymasterWork> that's my view also
[14:27] <slickymasterWork> yeap, all that stuff get covered by that link
[14:27] <knome> gimp? really?
[14:27] <knome> i'd keep on the apps that we consider "core" components
[14:27] <knome> no in the same sense as in xubuntu-core
[14:27] <slickymasterWork> but it's shipped by default knome 
[14:27] <knome> but gimp is a stretch IMO
[14:28] <knome> well i plan to suggest dropping it :P
[14:28] <slickymasterWork> and it's the only image editing software that we provide
[14:28] <knome> i mean...
[14:28] <knome> we have a lot of things shipped
[14:28] <knome> but gimp has its own finnish translations team
[14:28] <slickymasterWork> that's true
[14:28] <knome> i'd imagine
[14:29]  * slickymasterWork doesn't have the slightest idea about gimp translations
[14:29] <knome> the list we have now sounds like a sane list of projects we need/want to maintain
[14:29] <knome> ...translations for
[14:29] <knome> me neither
[14:29] <slickymasterWork> but I'm ok with dropping it
[14:29] <knome> but i'm sure they have a policy ;)
[14:30] <knome> i'd say even catfish/whiskermenu are on the verge, but it's ok to link those
[14:30] <knome> they are relatively important components to the basic functionality
[14:35] <knome> maybe this list should be in the processes page
[14:36] <slickymasterWork> that's a good point knome 
[14:36] <knome> with the rationale why the translations are important to us, it seems more like a list that describes what we do, not only what new people can do
[14:37] <knome> but thanks for gathering the list
[14:37] <knome> i'll put it up on the wiki at some point
[14:38] <knome> feel free to edit until that; once i do, i'll leave a message in the pad pointing to the processes page; after that, feel free to edit the wiki directly
[14:38] <slickymasterWork> well tha rationale of it kinda of place it in the correct position, not only it describes what we do but also serves as a call/request for getting people involved
[14:38] <slickymasterWork> s/tha/the
[14:38] <knome> yes
[14:38] <knome> it's also a good reference sheet for the URLs...
[14:38] <knome> just need to remember to edit that each cycle, since the slideshow is per-release
[14:39] <slickymasterWork> ok knome, noted -> "feel free to edit until that; once i do, i'll leave a message in the pad pointing to the processes page; after that, feel free to edit the wiki directly"
[14:39] <slickymasterWork> and every single time one of those apps get some sort of a revamp
[14:39] <knome> yep
[14:40] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Core_components
[14:41] <knome> just need to make sure that, xubuntu-core and this list aren't mixed
[14:41] <slickymasterWork> by the way knome, is https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/utopic/+pots/desktop-guide/fi/+translate status doc freeze previous or post doc freeze? 
[14:41] <knome> it should be the latest translation template
[14:42] <knome> i translated the few simple scan strings today
[14:42] <knome> so i'd imagine everything is in the templates now
[14:42] <slickymasterWork> I would cross reference with https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/core.html, re: xub core and that list but apparently Unit193 removed that page
[14:42] <knome> yeah, but that list is NOT xubuntu-core
[14:42] <knome> well, it kind of describes the same thing
[14:42] <knome> i'm not sure if we really need that list in the strategy document
[14:43] <slickymasterWork> it served as refernce to me :P
[14:43] <slickymasterWork> s/reference
[14:43] <knome> to me, it seems redundant because if there was new leadership, they could change the strategy document along with the shipped components
[14:43] <knome> what i'm trying to say is i don't know what the point of describing that is
[14:43] <slickymasterWork> yes
[14:44] <knome> there are other things that, in my not at all humble opinion, contribute to the "xubuntu feel"
[14:44] <slickymasterWork> I think we talking about different things knome 
[14:44] <slickymasterWork> s/we/we're
[14:44] <knome> and whatever package, there *always* should be a very compelling reason to switch, not only with the core components
[14:44] <knome> probably ;)
[14:45] <knome> the different things i'm saying are:
[14:45] <knome> 1) the core components list does not equal xubuntu-core
[14:46] <knome> 2) the core components list does not equal packages we think are important to translate
[14:46] <slickymasterWork> agree with
[14:46] <slickymasterWork> once again, I agree
[14:46] <knome> 3) xubuntu-core does not include everything we think is important to translate
[14:46] <knome> and
[14:46] <slickymasterWork> that one I missed, Hasn't really cross my mind
[14:47] <knome> 4) the core components list seems more and more redundant now that we have xubuntu-core and list important packages to translate
[14:47] <knome> and
[14:48] <knome> 5) the core components list is lacking, it doesn't list things that i consider "fundamental" for the xubuntu feel/identiety
[14:48] <knome> *identity
[14:48] <knome> and
[14:50] <knome> 6) i don't understand the reason we list those packages since either a) leaders can change the spec if they want to switch to other components b) changing any component shouldn't be a light decision regardless if it was a "core" component or not
[14:50] <slickymasterWork> lol knome, since you put it that way, I can only admit that I had narrowed view of it
[14:51] <knome> and c) since the core components list is lacking, it does not serve the purpose we currently say it does
[14:51] <knome> yeah...
[14:51] <knome> :)
[14:51] <slickymasterWork> re: your point 6 I was convinced it is due to mandatory paperwork/bureaucracy 
[14:51] <knome> nope, there's no obligation to list those packages
[14:51] <knome> they've only served the team
[14:52] <slickymasterWork> being so, I have no clue, then
[14:52] <knome> i guess there was a time when that kind of core components were much more under discussion
[14:52] <knome> the section is pretty much copied from the original strategy document, only the list has been poked slightly
[14:54] <slickymasterWork> but I do appreciate the insight on ^^^ 
[14:54] <knome> i do agree with the SD, where it implies:
[14:54] <slickymasterWork> all of it
[14:55] <knome> "thunar is a fundamental component of xubuntu, and should not be changed unless it's either deprecated by upstream xfce or there are other very compelling reasons (that require) to substitute them"
[14:55] <knome> but on the other hand, isn't that self-evident?
[14:56] <slickymasterWork> yes, but any file manager is a key component in any OS
[14:56] <slickymasterWork> exactly 
[14:56] <knome> yes
[14:56] <knome> if we even thought of replacing it with, say, nautilus, i'm sure there would be good reasons to do so
[14:57]  * slickymasterWork doesn't like nautilus :P
[14:57] <knome> the only thing i see that list doing is proctecting the "spirit" of the original xubuntu composition
[14:57] <slickymasterWork> no amount or quality of those reasons would convince him
[14:58] <knome> and i kind of agree with that, but i doubt the team would leave the project into somebody's hands who'd like to change it all
[14:58] <knome> if such a person even wanted to be nominated to begin with
[14:58] <slickymasterWork> btw knome, on a completely different subject, and because of the "spirit" of the original Xubuntu, did you manage to get in touch with mr_pouit?
[14:58] <knome> and if that happened, well, then i guess it would be time to move on :)
[14:58] <knome> for people, and xubuntu
[14:58] <slickymasterWork> I would follow
[14:58] <knome> heh, nope, didn't have time yet
[14:59] <slickymasterWork> just asked beacuse of bug 165082
[14:59] <knome> protecting the spirit of a project and being able to move on are often contradicting
[15:00] <knome> i guessed that
[15:00] <slickymasterWork> lol, that's almost like a marriage knome ;)
[15:00] <knome> hehe
[15:00] <knome> yep
[15:01] <knome> ochosi, you'll want to scan through that ^ discussion about three kinds of "core" stuff, and strategy document revamping :)
[15:51] <slickymasterWork> knome, and gmb?
[15:52] <knome> hmm
[15:52] <knome> not sure about that
[15:52] <knome> i guess we'd have to consult ochosi 
[15:53] <slickymasterWork> and pidgin, as we're on it, it's supposed to became our main interface for IRCing?
[15:53] <slickymasterWork> without the ?
[15:53] <knome> yeah, but i don't consider that something we should worry too much about translating
[15:53] <slickymasterWork> + 't 
[15:53] <knome> generally, the list for new potential contributors should be:
[15:53] <slickymasterWork> ;)
[15:53] <knome> xubuntu-docs
[15:54] <knome> "core" functionality apps
[15:54] <knome> anything you use
[15:54] <knome> so, if they use gmb, they should translate that
[15:54] <slickymasterWork> yeah, those two fall under that last category
[15:54] <knome> but since they should translate docs and other apps first... even listing gmb is a bit meh :)
[15:55] <knome> if they've went ahead and translated docs + the core apps, then they probably know how to find out how to translate X
[15:55] <knome> or know where to ask
[15:56] <slickymasterWork> we can add them to the pad as eventual potential ones and wait on ochosi's pov
[15:56] <knome> yeah, but i don't want to list $every_app_in_the_world
[15:56] <knome> ;]
[15:56] <knome> but sure, we can consider them...
[15:57] <slickymasterWork> at least pidgin should get the benefit of doubt
[15:57] <knome> yep
[15:57] <knome> that
[15:57] <knome> ...
[15:57] <knome> that's the most likely one for inclusion
[15:57] <knome> by far
[15:58] <knome> otoh, i think it might again be a bit redundant, because pidgin is very widely used
[15:58] <knome> in the sense that it's not only xfce/xubuntu users interested in it
[16:03] <slickymasterWork> I see your point knome and agree with it, but I'm think in the perspective of newly come into xubuntu/linux ecosystem users 
[16:03] <knome> yep
[16:03] <knome> but then the xubuntu team can't be considered responsible for taking that translating burden alone
[16:04] <slickymasterWork> that's also correct
[16:04] <ochosi> knome: oh, that's a long discussion. i'm about to leave the office, i'll read it @home
[16:04] <knome> ochosi, yep
[16:04] <slickymasterWork> it's a matter of balance
[16:04] <knome> no hurry with it, it's both release-independent and not critical
[16:04] <slickymasterWork> just food for thought ochosi 
[18:17] <Unit193> slickymasterWork: Also, pretty sure that wasn't a question, but yeah core.html was removed when you added all the content to a page on the site, but it never had a application listing.
[18:18] <slickymasterWork> yeah Unit193, it wasn't
[18:18] <slickymasterWork> and yes I knew it wasn't a list, that wasn't the point., afterwards 
[18:19] <slickymasterWork> I remembered that you had it removed after I added the content to the site
[18:20] <slickymasterWork> anywas, thanks for taking the time to answer on that
[18:21] <slickymasterWork> s/anywas/anyway´
[18:23] <Unit193> :D
[18:24] <slickymasterWork> heading home, cy later ->
[20:05] <BrunoAssis> Hi guys, i'd like to start contributing to the project as a Developer, can anybody give me some intro?
[20:06] <BrunoAssis> I've already subscribed to the mailing list
[20:06] <knome> hey BrunoAssis 
[20:06] <knome> what area are you interested in developing?
[20:07] <BrunoAssis> Well, i was thinking of improving the UI, but not limited to.
[20:08] <knome> ok, so what in the UI you think needs improving?
[20:09] <BrunoAssis> Transitions about windows, Icons, the file explorer interface 
[20:09] <knome> right, then that's more into the artwork side to the things
[20:09] <BrunoAssis> For example, why not implement the transitions from OSX to linux
[20:09] <knome> uhm, you mean visual effects?
[20:10] <knome> there are several compositors and pieces of software that do stuff like that; the xubuntu team mostly believes visual effects get into the way, so we haven't enabled those
[20:10] <BrunoAssis> Yes! I want to bring a good design, a good UI to linux, as we have in OSX and Windows, and always trying to keep a good performance.
[20:10] <knome> (nor do we want to sacrifice the performance for those)
[20:11] <BrunoAssis> Ok, ahm, do you have any special needs at the moment?
[20:11] <knome> we're very late in the cycle, so not for 14.10
[20:12] <BrunoAssis> I don't know if my skills can be useful for xubuntu, maybe help XFCE developers instead?
[20:12] <knome> there are some ongoing projects (like a GUI for a panel configuration switcher)..
[20:12] <knome> ..however, i think you should start with something that scratches your itch
[20:12] <knome> we work closely with xfce, so sure, depending what you are interested in
[20:13] <knome> what programming languages are you familiar with?
[20:14] <BrunoAssis> PHP, JAVA, C#, and (C/C++ , although i'm not expert in C/C++  i have developed few applications for graduation purposes) 
[20:15] <knome> xfce is written in C, so that's a start
[20:15] <knome> are there any bugs that specifically annoy you in xfce components?
[20:16] <BrunoAssis> humm, yeah, i will, look for some information about XFCE to get a position of what i'm gonna do
[20:17] <BrunoAssis> I actually enjoy XFCE, but i'm a developer
[20:17] <BrunoAssis> i want to bring linux close to Windows users.
[20:17] <BrunoAssis> *closer
[20:17] <knome> i would start by fixing bugs you experience yourself, then start moving towards implemeting new features
[20:18] <knome> you always have to remember that not everybody agrees on the direction projects should take
[20:18] <BrunoAssis> Yes, that's because i'm here, learning about it!
[20:19] <BrunoAssis> I'm a completely newbie on this matter, so.. as you can see, i'm gathering opinions to help me out to define which path i'm gonna take
[20:19] <knome> sure, understood, and it's a good way to start by communicating
[20:19] <ali1234> we need code audits
[20:20] <ali1234> especially thunar, there's loads of silly stuff in there
[20:21] <BrunoAssis> good, code audit is interesting! 
[20:23] <BrunoAssis> One more doubt that maybe you could help, i want to build the installation of xubuntu from scratch, i mean, download the source-code, compiling it, making an ISO and then installing, is there a tutorial or some stuff that can help me with this?
[20:30] <Noskcaj> BrunoAssis, To compile all of xubuntu from scratch, you'll need a few days for it all to compile, and it seems harder than is worthwhile
[20:31] <Noskcaj> WEEEOOOW
[20:35] <ali1234> Noskcaj: what's this thunar crash about?
[20:35] <knome> hey ali1234 :)
[20:35] <Noskcaj> ali1234, I pressed the up directory button many times, and it crashed
[20:35] <ali1234> well yeah :)
[20:36] <ali1234> did it crash before or after reaching the root directory?
[20:36] <ali1234> were you in a gvfs filesystem?
[20:36] <Noskcaj> before
[20:36] <Noskcaj> ext4, it got to ~/Jackson
[20:36] <ali1234> when you say "many times" do you mean you were clicking it continuously as fast as possible?
[20:36] <Noskcaj> Oops, just ~/
[20:36] <Noskcaj> yeah
[20:37] <knome> Noskcaj, thunar is not a cookie clicker game!!
[20:37] <Noskcaj> I've had the problem for a few months, i thought i'd already reported it
[20:37] <knome> ;)=
[20:37] <Noskcaj> knome, I've got a script for cookie clicker, but that's unrelated :)
[20:37] <ali1234> how deep were you when you started clicking?
[20:37] <Noskcaj> about 10 folders deep from root
[20:37] <ali1234> and how complex was the dir structure? was it like, "bottom of linux kernel tree" or something?
[20:38] <Noskcaj> Random stuff from inside a packaging svn
[20:38] <knome> Noskcaj, putting effort in important things in life, and so on :)
[20:38] <Noskcaj> yeah
[20:38] <Noskcaj> :)
[20:38] <knome> Noskcaj, but yeah, cheating is the only way to keep those games interesting at least for 5 minutes.
[20:38] <ali1234> sounds like a race condition with queueing the "up" requests
[20:39] <knome> i guess one debug step would be to try if that happens when bashing backspace :)
[20:39] <ali1234> yeah. also, does it happen outside the homedir?
[20:39] <knome> or does that simply go back in history? *shrugs*
[20:39] <ali1234> going back in history may trigger it too
[20:40] <knome> because history and directory structure are different things
[20:40] <knome> yeah, but history does not have to queue the filesystem in the same way as "go to parent dir"
[20:40] <ali1234> yeah but the thing that handles changing directory may not be
[20:40] <knome> that made no sense...
[20:41] <Noskcaj> ali1234, I'll let you know if it happens again, but it's hard to reproduce the issue
[20:41] <knome> i use backspace and sometimes bash it, but don't remember seeing that issue
[21:03] <ali1234> yeah... cannot reproduce
[21:04] <ali1234> i created a directory tree 100 levels deep with 100 files in each level, then remapped left click to the mousewheel to be able to click impossibly fast. and spammed clicks all the way up that directory tree
[21:48] <ochosi> ali1234: any idea how the present extension support is going in graphics drivers? i haven't really followed this anymore recently...
[21:49] <ali1234> it hasn't changed
[21:50] <ochosi> so still little/no support?
[21:50] <ali1234> we don't even get xorg 1.16 until utopic
[21:51] <ochosi> right, but utopic is kinda around the corner
[21:51] <ali1234> nvidia still has made no indications of supporting it
[21:55] <ochosi> :/
[21:56] <ochosi> knome, slickymaster: i read through your discussion now, i agree that the section of the XDS might not be super helpful
[21:56] <ochosi> err, XSD
[21:56] <knome> mhm
[21:57] <ochosi> and yeah, we might want to rethink that along with what -core and -translateable means to us
[21:57] <knome> i guess the burning question is if you wnat to try to make it useful, or simply drop it
[21:57] <knome> i personally don't know what we would use such a list for
[21:57] <ochosi> yeah, i'm not sure it's the best place for such a list
[21:57] <knome> it seems like, as i said, a way to protect a young project from completely wacked ideas
[21:57] <ochosi> i wouldn't mind setting up a list of the packages we consider "important" to xubuntu
[21:57] <ochosi> yeah
[21:58] <ochosi> feels like it
[21:58] <ochosi> not sure we really need it anymore
[21:58] <knome> i'm sure all of the team agrees that, for example, xfdesktop4 is an important part of xubuntu...
[21:58] <ochosi> so personally i'd keep the "unsuitable" section, but replace the other one with a simple general statement
[21:58] <ochosi> without listing the individual components
[21:58] <knome> i'd just drop the "core" section
[21:59] <knome> xubuntu-core communicates that to some extent already
[21:59] <knome> it's not exactly the same, but it's close
[21:59] <ochosi> i mean as you said, these things are quite obvious
[21:59] <ochosi> at least to people who know what xfce is
[22:00] <ochosi> nice that there's still leafpad, this must be a rather ancient section
[22:00] <knome> those who don't do not contribute to xubuntu anyway :)
[22:00] <knome> it's not actually
[22:00] <knome> remember we shipped leafpad for a moment?
[22:00] <knome> then returned to mousepad once it was fixed
[22:00] <ochosi> yeah, but i thought leafpad was kinda a predecessor at some point
[22:01] <knome> yes
[22:01] <knome> it is
[22:01] <ochosi> i know we shipped it for one release or so because mousepad broke in some way (can't remember aymore)
[22:01] <knome> yep, iirc something about printing or so
[22:01] <ochosi> feels though that this list is older
[22:02] <knome> yes, the body of it comes from 2009
[23:33]  * pleia2 frowns at iso tracker
[23:33] <pleia2> wish these images came out sooner
[23:34] <knome> :)
[23:53] <pleia2> oh, thursday is a holiday and I won't be around
[23:53] <knome> right
[23:54] <knome> i guess i can handle the news stuff
[23:54] <knome> at least website + twitter
[23:54] <knome> and we probably should start gathering release notes soon too
[23:54] <pleia2> yeah, I can look those over tomorrow and wednesday as needed
[23:54] <knome> oh, we can just base that on beta 1 announcement, awesome