[02:56] <ofprieto> join #ubuntu-co-meeting,#ubuntu-co
[02:56] <ofprieto> join #ubuntu-co-meeting
[15:02]  * slangasek waves
[15:03] <caribou> o/
[15:03] <jodh> \o
[15:03] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[15:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct  2 15:03:25 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:03] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:03] <mvo> hi
[15:03] <sil2100> o/
[15:03] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
[15:03] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
[15:03] <slangasek> mvo infinity sil2100 slangasek robru stgraber jodh caribou bdmurray barry doko bhuey cjwatson
[15:03] <mvo> first!
[15:04] <mvo> apt:
[15:04] <mvo> - Diagose failure that Daniel Westervelt had with armhf/maas
[15:04] <mvo>   (bug in Acquire::GzipIndexes code but already fixe)
[15:04] <mvo> - Enable all hardening options (including PIE)
[15:04] <mvo> - Smoe more work on acq-trans branch
[15:04] <mvo> click:
[15:04] <mvo> - Deal with libqt5gui5 -> -gles fallout (emulator releated)
[15:04] <mvo> - Fix gnutls error for public.apps.u.c in their deploy charm
[15:04] <mvo>   (lp:~mvo/canonical-is-charms/ubuntuone-servers-deploy-public.apps.u.c)
[15:04] <mvo> - Address review comments for lp:~mvo/click/acquire
[15:04] <mvo> - Port acquire to use pythons new asyncio (lp:~mvo/click/acquire-asyncio)
[15:04] <mvo> - Port lp:~mvo/click/sso to pycurl and resolve gnutls issues (missing
[15:04] <mvo>   ServerName in server config for TLS)
[15:04] <mvo> - Start discussion with SDK team about lp:~mvo/click/click-check-libs
[15:04] <mvo> - Work on fixing lp:~mvo/click/lp1232130-kill-on-remove-2
[15:04] <mvo>   (tricky because ubuntu-app-launch is on the session bus but click is root)
[15:04] <mvo> - Port lp:~mvo/click/repository to use pycurl and provide httplib2 like
[15:04] <mvo>   http_request() function to make porting simpler
[15:04] <mvo> - Review lp:~cjwatson/click/chroot-name
[15:04] <mvo> - Update lp:~mvo/click/lp1319790-chroot-fstab
[15:04] <mvo>     lp:~mvo/click/dont-crash-for-empty-db,
[15:04] <mvo>     lp:~mvo/click/lp1232130-kill-on-remove,
[15:04] <mvo>     lp:~mvo/click/lp1219912-build-exclude,
[15:04] <mvo>     lp:~mvo/click/framework-info to current click
[15:04] <mvo> click-bin-path:
[15:04] <mvo> - Debug/fix crash when nothing has a bin-path
[15:04] <mvo> sponsoring:
[15:05] <mvo> - Review/upload ubuntu-core-config/initramfs-tools-ubuntu-core
[15:05] <mvo> system-image:
[15:05] <mvo> - Upload pycurl based image downloader to the foundations PPA
[15:05] <mvo> - Debug build failure with pycurl in system-image ppa build
[15:05] <mvo> - Debug/fix incorrect writes with lambda and write custom writer
[15:05] <mvo> - Look into unneeded core image dependencies
[15:05] <mvo> - Port pycurl branch to CurlMulti
[15:05] <mvo> - make total progress totally reliable
[15:05] <mvo> - add get_download_manager() factory
[15:05] <mvo> - update default config for ppa system-image-cli
[15:05] <mvo> - tweak seeds, do not include recommends in system-image seed
[15:05] <mvo> (done)
[15:05] <barry> mvo: \o/
[15:06] <slangasek> no infinity at the moment
[15:06] <sil2100> Ah, ok
[15:06] <slangasek> sil2100:
[15:06] <sil2100> - Landing team work, preparing landing e-mails
[15:06] <sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and feature:
[15:06] <sil2100>   * Deployment of the build job refactoring
[15:06] <sil2100>   * Refactoring of the publish job
[15:06] <sil2100>   * Adding unit tests to the few newly ripped out publish job chunks
[15:06] <sil2100>   * Work on the dual landing scheme for ubuntu-rtm
[15:06] <sil2100>   * Start looking into the issue of not all bug numbers landing in debian/changelog
[15:06] <sil2100> - Debugging and fixing problems in commitlog generation (google API problems)
[15:06] <sil2100> - Sending out announcements about changes in some of our processes
[15:06] <sil2100> - Packaging and quilt advice for some upstream projects
[15:06] <sil2100> - Preparing script for ubuntu-rtm backlog generation
[15:06] <sil2100> - Health problems, one day of sickness, slow recovery - less work done...
[15:06] <mvo> barry: get_download_manager() should actually be good now, it will check the bus for udm and use that if its available and otherwise try to fallback to pycurl
[15:06] <sil2100> (done)
[15:07] <barry> mvo: that's really great
[15:07] <barry> mvo: i might still want the setting to override autodetection, but we'll see
[15:07] <mvo> barry: thats added as well :P
[15:08] <mvo> barry: via the environment right now though for easy testing
[15:08] <barry> mvo: yep, makes sense
[15:09] <slangasek>  * feeling ill this morning, so not a very comprehensive report
[15:09] <slangasek>  * partner package reviews
[15:09] <slangasek>  * working on various branch reviews (upstart, apport)
[15:09] <slangasek> (done)
[15:09] <slangasek> robru:
[15:09] <mvo> barry: whats the best irc channel to ask about asyncio for "normal" files? and if its worthwhile to work on a patch?
[15:10] <slangasek> #chair mvo
[15:10] <meetingology> Current chairs: mvo slangasek
[15:10] <barry> mvo: good question.  *maybe* #python-dev?  i have to see if there's a specific asyncio channel
[15:10] <slangasek> (as I may not make it to the end of the meeting today)
[15:10] <slangasek> looks like no robru
[15:10] <slangasek> stgraber:
[15:10] <robru> ah sorry, need a minute
[15:10] <sil2100> robru looked alive ;)
[15:11] <stgraber> oops, sorry
[15:11] <stgraber> been preparing for LinuxCon and Plumbers, did the LXC 1.0.6 release, did the LXC 1.1~alpha2 release, got a FFe for that latter and uploaded to utopic
[15:11] <slangasek> ok, robru after stgraber then
[15:11] <stgraber> now trying to track down a very annoying kernel bug that's affecting my server
[15:12] <barry> mvo: https://code.google.com/p/tulip/  (tulip being the code name for the standalone version)
[15:12] <stgraber> I'll be gone next week except for Friday, then I'll be gone the week after at LinuxCon/Plumbers and the week after that for the device sprint.
[15:12] <stgraber> fully back on the 27th
[15:12] <stgraber> (DONE)
[15:12] <robru> - ripped all knowledge of spreadsheets out of the CI Train jenkins backend. It is now 100% ready to have something else replace the spreadsheet (just waiting for the spreadsheet replacement itself to be ready).
[15:12] <robru> - work continues on encapsulating the various bits of spaghetti that exist in the ci train code. eliminated knowledge of the json configuration format from the prepare job, check-publication-migration job, and the build job.
[15:12] <robru> - made it easier to rollback production deployments in case I land something broken
[15:12] <robru> - resurrect accidentally deleted copy2distro script and brought it up to current coding standards (pep8, pyflakes, etc)
[15:12] <robru> - fixed all kinds of little bugs and typos and stuff
[15:12] <robru> - ported most of the bash scripts to sh, except for one in which sh breaks pbuilder for some unknown reason.
[15:12] <robru> - eliminated an entire class of ridiculous path-traversing code which was hunting for silos... which exist only in a single well-defined location.
[15:12] <robru> - various and sundry landings.
[15:12] <robru> - vacation next week!
[15:12] <robru> (done)
[15:12] <jodh> * upstart
[15:12] <jodh>   - bug 1198180 investigations with apw.
[15:12] <jodh> * goget-ubuntu-touch:
[15:12] <jodh>   - Raised MP to add '--list-images' option:
[15:12] <jodh>   https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/goget-ubuntu-touch/add-list-images-option/+merge/236510
[15:13] <jodh> * system-image
[15:13] <jodh>   - Lots of activity. Currently investigating improvements to upgrade
[15:13] <jodh>   logic and will then start serious package whittling.
[15:13] <doko> lxc autopkg tests fail
[15:13] <jodh> 🀫
[15:13] <stgraber> doko: that's normal
[15:13] <mvo> jodh: nice work on the goget branch
[15:13] <doko> ahh
[15:14] <jodh> mvo: w/e hack :)
[15:14] <stgraber> doko: see part about the kernel panic on my server :) adt will pass again once the public images server works again
[15:14] <caribou> * sosreport 3.2 released
[15:14] <caribou>   - Started to work on Debian/Ubuntu packaging
[15:14] <caribou>   - Continue implementation of git-dpm
[15:14] <caribou>   - Found zero-day bug  in apt plugin
[15:14] <caribou> * Investigation on a iSCSI/LVM/DM-MPIO mount issue at boot
[15:14] <caribou> * Preliminary work on running kdump-tools at RunLevel S
[15:14] <caribou> (done)
[15:15] <barry> caribou: git-dpm ftw!
[15:15] <caribou> barry: looking forward to your talk !=
[15:15] <caribou> :)
[15:15] <bdmurray> modified errors charm and code to create version_info
[15:15] <bdmurray> research into volume of CORE files being reported to the Error Tracker
[15:15] <bdmurray> searched for CORE files to be removed from swift
[15:15] <bdmurray> r537: daisy/submit.py: do not ask for a CORE for packages without Ubuntu or Ubuntu RTM as we will not be able to retrace them
[15:15] <bdmurray> r538 "daisy/submit.py: add in a metric for retraced crashes missing a stacktrace"
[15:15] <bdmurray> r540: daisy/submit.py: do not ask for CORE files if the report is missing information required for retracing the crash"
[15:15] <bdmurray> reworked steve's apport changes for whoopsie-upload-all
[15:15] <bdmurray> investigation into ubuntu-touch default test whoopsie failure and discussion with plars about it
[15:15] <bdmurray> reviewed paul larson's change to whoopsie default ubuntu-touch test (approve)
[15:15] <bdmurray> submitted apport bug LP: #1374544 regarding SegvAnalysis field weirdness
[15:15] <bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1376374 regarding repeat processing of crash files
[15:15] <bdmurray> SRU verification of bug LP: #1324833
[15:15] <bdmurray> uploaded fix for update-manager LP: #1374715 regarding CVE urls
[15:16] <bdmurray> uploaded trusty SRU for LP: #1354571 so we'll stop uploading crashes with bad core dumps to the error tracker
[15:16] <bdmurray> submitted merge proposal fixing sru-report traceback
[15:16] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[15:16] <barry> system-image: LP: #1370586; LP: #1376758 (triaged); system-image 2.5-0ubuntu1 (monkeypushing rebuilds, citrain, rtm, testing).  reviewed mvo branch.
[15:16] <barry> debuntu: tox 1.8.0-1. python-concurrent.futures 2.2.0-1.  tons of pycurl bug triaging, conversion to git (for better debian/ubuntu package management), 7.19.3-1-2, 7.19.5-1, 7.19.5-2, and LP: #1376736 (FFE) with 7.19.5-2ubuntu1 ready to go.  debian bug #763770.  debian sbuild creation (fails due to debian bug #607228)
[15:16] <barry> other: reviewed branches for cgoldberg and robru.  falcon upstream branch rebase and back/forth to get landed.
[15:16] <barry> more git-dpm hacking
[15:16] <barry> -- done --
[15:17] <mvo> doko is next
[15:17] <doko> - vacation last week
[15:17] <doko> - catching up with email
[15:17] <doko> - toolchain updates
[15:17] <doko> - python update
[15:17] <doko> - a bit of MIR processing
[15:17] <doko> (done)
[15:17] <mvo> and now bhuey
[15:18] <mvo> and cjwatson is not here today
[15:19] <mvo> no bhuey?
[15:19] <mvo> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:19] <mvo> anything else? anything interessting happening last week thats worth sharing?
[15:19] <mvo> I have: asyncio is cool
[15:21] <mvo> nothing…?
[15:21] <barry> mvo: continue! :)
[15:21] <mvo> [TOPIC] kernel crash dumps
[15:21] <mvo> caribou: do you want to talk a little bit about this?
[15:22] <barry> mvo: yes, it's *super* cool
[15:22] <mvo> barry: heh :) everybody want to get back to real work eh ?
[15:22] <caribou> mvo: maybe a brief update if someone is interested
[15:22] <barry> caribou: yes!
[15:23] <caribou> the Debian/Ubuntu way of capturing a kernel crash dump is, once kexec triggers a reboot following a kernel panic
[15:24] <caribou> to run a SysV initscript called kdump-tools that will do the necessary steps to read from /proc/vmcore
[15:24] <caribou> use makedumpfile to process the /proc/vmcore output and to some filtering and compression and to produce a file
[15:25] <caribou> in /var/crash/{timestamp dir} directory. the content of the dmesg output is also captured in that directory
[15:26] <caribou> the system is then rebooted. On startup Apport will produce a Report file in /var/crash that contains the output of the dmesg file
[15:26] <caribou> that Apport report used to contain the full kernel crash dump but given the size of those files, it is now left in the timestamped directory
[15:27] <caribou> the kernel crash file can be later analyzed in conjunction with a kernel namelist which includes the debug symbols
[15:28] <caribou> I recently introduced in the latest version available in Debian (1.5.7) a functionality to allow the crashdump file to be sent to a remote server via SSH or NFS
[15:29] <caribou> There is also some preliminary work being done to have the kernel dump capture to be executed at run level S
[15:29] <barry> caribou: is there sensitive information in the crash dump, and if so, does it get trimmed out before it leaves the local machine?
[15:30] <caribou> there can be, especially if all userspace memory is capture (the default is not to capture them)
[15:30] <caribou> but network information, in-transit data & such is bound to be present in the crash dump file
[15:31] <caribou> which is why many user are very cautious of what is being done with those files. Some even refuse to make them
[15:31] <caribou> available, so sometime the analysis has to be done remotely on their servers
[15:32] <caribou> For instance, the file system structure, file names, TCP/IP information & adresses, process list with arguments, all of those are easily available with the default setup
[15:33] <caribou> It is makedumpfile responsability to filter out unneeded/unwanted memory pages
[15:34] <caribou> that's about all I have if I want to remain brief
[15:34] <mvo> cool, interessting stuff, thanks for this!
[15:34] <caribou> oh, for some reason it seems much more difficult to get a crash dump on a laptop/desktop
[15:34] <mvo> and next week we will have cjwatson talking about (one of the things) he is working on
[15:34] <caribou> I have an outstanding bug on that
[15:35] <mvo> oh, what the issue here?
[15:35] <barry> caribou: thanks!
[15:35] <caribou> yw
[15:36] <mvo> more comments/questions? if not it seems we are close to EOM :)
[15:37] <mvo> #endmeething
[15:37] <mvo> thanks everyone!
[15:37] <mvo> #endmeeting even
[15:37] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct  2 15:37:55 2014 UTC.
[15:37] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-02-15.03.moin.txt
[15:38] <caribou> mvo: thanks
[15:38] <barry> thanks!
[15:40] <jodh> thanks!
[15:42] <sil2100> o/
[17:13] <pleia2> #startmeeting Community Council
[17:13] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct  2 17:13:42 2014 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:13] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:13] <pleia2> running a bit late, but we're here :)
[17:13] <elfy> hi
[17:13] <czajkowski> aloha
[17:13] <pleia2> #chair elfy YokoZar czajkowski
[17:13] <meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski elfy pleia2
[17:14] <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:15] <pleia2> so, anyone from the Membership board or Kubuntu around?
[17:15] <elfy> popey might be
[17:15]  * popey awakens
[17:16] <popey> wassup?
[17:17] <pleia2> hggdh, jared, marcoceppi, cyphermox_, about?
[17:17] <marcoceppi> pleia2: aye
[17:17] <pleia2> just checking in with the membership board, seeing how things are going, if there's anything we can do to help
[17:18] <popey> Sorry, I wasn't prepared for this, didn't realise we were going to be called to chat.
[17:18] <elfy> especially I suspect - are meetings being held with another members for quorum now in general?
[17:18] <popey> However I have some comments if you want them ☻
[17:18] <czajkowski> sure that would be great thanks popey
[17:18] <valorie> o/
[17:19] <pleia2> valorie: yay :) can you stick around for a few minutes so we can chat about kubuntu after membership board?
[17:19] <valorie> sure
[17:19] <shadeslayer> hiya
[17:19]  * shadeslayer passes around some blueberry icecream
[17:19] <valorie> shadeslayer: we're second on the agenda
[17:20] <valorie> yum!
[17:20] <shadeslayer> cool :)
[17:20] <czajkowski> popey: comments?
[17:20] <popey> So my observations being back in the membership board...
[17:20] <popey> 1) Not may people are applying.
[17:20] <pleia2> yeah, that's been the case for a couple years now :(
[17:20] <popey> 2) Those that do apply aren't motivated to actually turn up to meetings
[17:21] <elfy> the second seems odd
[17:22] <pleia2> yeah, I don't know why that would be
[17:23] <popey> I have a theory ☻
[17:23] <popey> That there's less cache with being an ubuntu member now
[17:23] <popey> it's not "special"
[17:23] <elfy> real life perhaps - but if it was me - I'd contact the board to at least say so
[17:23] <popey> so why bother
[17:23] <popey> i mean, in the past we always had no-shows.
[17:23] <popey> and I don't have hard data for how many we had then vs now
[17:24] <popey> I guess it's more obvious now, when you have only one person apply, and they don't turn up...
[17:24]  * pleia2 nods
[17:24] <czajkowski> popey: do you think more of a fan fair needs to be made or moe visability of what happens?
[17:24] <popey> Not sure of the solution.
[17:25] <popey> I think it's probably a symptom of a general decline in contributions
[17:25] <elfy> was just going to say similar
[17:26] <elfy> that's something that almost everyone without exception has said in these catch ups
[17:26] <Riddell> hola
[17:27] <czajkowski> I did think at one point meeting should be less frequent and do them in larger bunches so people cna tune in and watch
[17:27] <czajkowski> so more people may become excited about the process
[17:27] <czajkowski> Riddell: ola once membership is over we'll move to Kubuntu cheers.
[17:27] <elfy> maybe quarterly
[17:28] <popey> then you get the problem that "I applied 3 months ago..."
[17:28] <pleia2> trouble with that is life/timezones get in the way and they miss one chance...
[17:28] <popey> yeah
[17:29] <czajkowski> pleia2: nods
[17:29] <popey> and its not much effort for us to turn up to irc once a month and say "Hello?" if nobody is tehre
[17:29] <pleia2> could see about encouraging more community members to attend in general, I know I don't really attend anymore :\
[17:29] <YokoZar> I may've asked this question before, but does it even need to be a meeting?
[17:29] <czajkowski> or we could do a monthly meeting adn once a quarter the CC joins the meeting to meet the new people and welcome them
[17:29] <pleia2> YokoZar: transparency is nice
[17:29] <czajkowski> what about moving it to a hangout ?
[17:30] <czajkowski> or at least an option of a hangout
[17:30] <YokoZar> pleia2: I meant as opposed to something like asynchronous public emails.  czajkowski's suggestion would make it more personal, which could be an interesting twist in the other direction
[17:30] <pleia2> hangouts are not an option for younger folks or those on slower connections
[17:30] <pleia2> and seems more intimidating to me :)
[17:30] <czajkowski> pleia2: I don;t think moving completely away from IRC would be good
[17:30] <pleia2> 4 people judging me is bad enough, when they're looknig at me, eek!
[17:31] <czajkowski> trying to find a middle ground
[17:31] <popey> I dont think its a problem with the meeting
[17:31] <pleia2> also rough on non-native speakers who are better at typing (and we can google translate)
[17:31] <popey> I think it's a problem with us having no new contributors
[17:31] <popey> no "pipeline" as they say
[17:31] <pleia2> yeah, it does seem like a broader issue
[17:31] <czajkowski> nods
[17:32] <pleia2> newcomers who I see doing great work are going for membership, there just aren't many of them
[17:32] <pleia2> popey: do you know if folks working on phones are going for membership?
[17:32] <popey> Well, thats two areas.
[17:32] <pleia2> that's where Canonical's team has moved focus to, but I don't see much of them
[17:33] <popey> 1) people working on the phone platform
[17:33] <popey> 2) people working on apps
[17:33] <popey> I see them as two distinct areas
[17:33] <pleia2> I'm thinking apps
[17:33] <popey> yes, we encourage core apps contributors to go for membership
[17:33] <popey> and some have already
[17:33] <popey> (and got it)
[17:33] <pleia2> that's good :)
[17:33] <popey> e.g. people working on clock, email client etc have got their membership as a direct result of phone contributions
[17:34] <popey> which isn't just "making apps" but providing good feedback / bugs to SDK & platform developers
[17:34] <popey> we invited some along to sprints as well, which is quite a commitment for them
[17:34] <elfy> mmm
[17:35] <elfy> so no-one out in the wider community is going to know about that
[17:35] <popey> about what?
[17:35] <czajkowski> popey: aye saw that in peoples blogs and on G+
[17:35] <popey> I tend to announce like a lunatic when a core app dev gets membership
[17:35] <elfy> popey: ones getting membership directly
[17:35] <popey> and turn up and cheer
[17:35] <popey> "directly?"
[17:35] <elfy> popey: oh ok - not seen it
[17:35] <popey> they go through the same process as anyone else
[17:35] <elfy> yes - but do they go to meetings?
[17:35] <popey> yes
[17:35] <popey> same process
[17:36] <popey> no different at all
[17:36] <elfy> aah ok - read it wrong then - sorry :)
[17:36] <popey> np
[17:36] <popey> but traditionally speaking a member was someonw working on the platform
[17:36] <popey> not someone creating apps _for_ the platform
[17:36] <YokoZar> Maybe this decline in contribution isn't as big a problem as we think.  Maybe people are shifting to upstream contribution, or we have fewer problems drawing active demand, or similar
[17:36] <YokoZar> Maybe it's good to be a functional boring piece of software.
[17:36] <popey> but core apps are a bit "special" in that many  ship by default on the device which is quite a big contribution
[17:37] <popey> as far as I can see we have fewer people working on things like ubiquity or unity or other desktop bits
[17:38] <popey> I believe many desktops / distros have this problem.
[17:38] <popey> (maybe I'm wrong)?
[17:38] <pleia2> I don't think we'll come to much of a conclusion here
[17:39] <popey> indeed.
[17:39] <pleia2> we should continue a discussion about whether contributions are a problem and how to improve things though, maybe on the new community discussion list
[17:40] <pleia2> ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com
[17:40] <popey> happy to start that
[17:40] <pleia2> thanks popey
[17:40] <czajkowski> popey: excellent!
[17:40] <pleia2> shall we move on to Kubuntu Council?
[17:41] <pleia2> #topic Kubuntu Council check-up
[17:41] <Riddell> hola chicos
[17:41] <pleia2> hey valorie, shadeslayer and Riddell!
[17:41] <sgclark> hi
[17:41] <Riddell> shadeslayer gone home but sgclark also here from kubuntu
[17:41] <pleia2> ah ok, hi sgclark :)
[17:42] <valorie> greets
[17:42] <pleia2> during these once-per-cycle checkins, we try to see how things are going with the team, and if you need us in any way
[17:42] <pleia2> so, how are things?
[17:43] <Riddell> some points I came up with..
[17:43] <valorie> exciting times for us imo
[17:43] <Riddell> We seem to be getting funds from the ubuntu community donations in acceptable time and I see the latest report has been published which is good
[17:43] <Riddell> Our Kubuntu Plasma5 images are being produced from a PPA and being published on cdimages which is great
[17:43] <pleia2> \o/
[17:43] <Riddell> the ubuntu website uses the deprecating term
[17:44] <Riddell> "derivatives" for ubuntu flavours such as ourselves
[17:44] <Riddell> would be good to have that fixed http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/derivatives
[17:44] <pleia2> is there an open bug for it on ubuntu-website in lp? I can chime in
[17:44] <Riddell> nope, I can file one
[17:44] <pleia2> (this is something I worked to fix in the latest Official Ubuntu Book, it was a lot of s/derivatives/flavors!)
[17:44] <valorie> this was discussed years ago
[17:45] <pleia2> Riddell: thanks
[17:45] <valorie> and I thought the whole "derivitives" word was banished
[17:45] <pleia2> yeah, I did too, totally feel your pain here
[17:45] <Riddell> The technical problems that I feared from Canonical moving away from
[17:45] <Riddell> community made software are coming true, KDE is recommending SDDM
[17:45] <Riddell> having moved away from LightDM because of the need to agree to a
[17:45] <Riddell> special licence to Canonical.  I'm now having trouble making SDDM work
[17:45] <Riddell> with our images and have nowhere in Ubuntu to turn to for help.
[17:46] <Riddell> And you've already discussed the lack of new community members which I feel is also due to canonical moving away from community made software
[17:46] <Riddell> I think it's a sane business decision but I do worry we'll come across a problem in future such as with wayland that we won't be able to fix
[17:47] <pleia2> yeah
[17:47] <valorie> me too
[17:48] <Riddell> this article is about a massive Kubuntu rollout https://insights.ubuntu.com/2014/07/07/ubuntu-and-open-source-help-the-city-of-munich-save-millions/
[17:48] <Riddell> but doesn't mention kubuntu once
[17:48] <pleia2> :\
[17:48] <Riddell> canonical needs to credit the community that builds ubuntu
[17:48] <pleia2> I didn't realize it was Kubuntu either
[17:48] <Riddell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/1339508 "Misspelling in insights article"
[17:49] <Riddell> it's actually a really great process there, they come to akademy and we're have sprints in munich which effectively replace UDS
[17:49] <Riddell> they didn't contact either munich or us when they wrote that article
[17:49] <pleia2> that's unfortunate to hear
[17:50] <Riddell> Reviewing the licence policy situation the Ubuntu liceensing page says all the right stuff http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/licensing "Must allow these rights to be passed on along with the software. You should be able to have exactly the same rights to the software as we do."
[17:50] <Riddell> which is correct.
[17:50] <Riddell> The Canonical IP policy continues to be incorrect however http://www.canonical.com/intellectual-property-rights-policy "Any redistribution of modified versions...will need to recompile the source code to create your own binaries"
[17:50] <Riddell> This is incorrect, as all software is free software once it is
[17:50] <Riddell> distributed to someone that person can further distribute it all they
[17:50] <Riddell> want under the relevant free software licence.  To claim otherwise is
[17:50] <Riddell> an insult to the copyright holders, the upstreams who write our
[17:50] <Riddell> software, and goes against the Ubuntu policy above. It causes worry for our
[17:50] <Riddell> supporters and is one reason why Blue Systems are looking at other
[17:50] <Riddell> distributions.  It needs to be changed and I strongly feel it is the
[17:50] <Riddell> task of the community council to stand up to Canonical on this topic.
[17:50] <pleia2> we don't seem to have dholbach or mhall119 here today, so I'll be sure to point them at this log to see what can be done to follow up with Canonical on this
[17:51] <pleia2> (I'm not sure who to contact)
[17:52] <pleia2> to your last point, this is really difficult, we've tried interacting with lawyers but it seems to be their lawyer language we can't get past
[17:52] <valorie> it worries me to see Canonical stop pushing freedom as a value
[17:52] <pleia2> other CC members should chime in here, but we've spent months on this, mostly banging our heads against the wall
[17:52] <valorie> this could be basic as to why we're not drawing new people
[17:52] <beuno> pleia2, I think dpm is the person to talk to nowadays
[17:52] <pleia2> so I assure you we have stood up to canonical, we just don't get anywhere
[17:53] <Riddell> if they continue to claim something which isn't true the CC should put out a statement saying so
[17:53] <elfy> pleia2: agree witht hat
[17:53] <pleia2> we don't actually have any power when it comes to canonical IP, trademarks, etc
[17:53] <Riddell> the CC statement that was put out was as wishy washy as canonical's public statements on the topic
[17:53] <Riddell> talking about how lawyers are needed and copyright law is complex is a poor excuse
[17:53] <pleia2> that's because it was really really hard to write
[17:54] <pleia2> it's the truth
[17:54] <pleia2> we can only do so much :(
[17:54] <Riddell> the canonical IP statment is incorrect, it's that simple
[17:54] <Riddell> it claims restrictions which go against the core values of ubuntu and free software
[17:54] <Riddell> it's badly hurting our community
[17:55] <valorie> I agree
[17:55] <Riddell> and I'm astonished that nobody outside of kubuntu thinks this is an issue
[17:56] <valorie> I think most are confused, or just turn off when the whole idea of intellectual property is discussed
[17:56] <valorie> but ignoring it just weakens the freedoms we have
[17:57]  * Riddell reports bug 1376860
[17:57] <valorie> if we don't stand up for our own rights, who will?
[17:57] <YokoZar> I should comment.
[17:57] <pleia2> Riddell: thanks
[17:57] <hggdh> pleia2:  I am here now, if you need me
[17:58] <pleia2> hggdh: thanks, we had some other membership board folks turn up so we don't :)
[17:59] <YokoZar> As a non-canonical CC member, I independently checked Canonical's copyright claims with my own legal consultation from a copyright expert.
[17:59] <hggdh> yeah, just read the backlog -- I agree with popey, FWIW
[17:59] <YokoZar> It is "unclear" whether stuff like the build infrastructure (mere compiling) generates a new copyright, particular in non-US copyright situations.
[18:00] <Riddell> I have never heard of anyone anywhere suggesting that a compiler adds extra copyright restrictions
[18:00] <Riddell> some tools like yacc do because they copy their own code into the output, compilers do not
[18:01] <Riddell> even if they did, to then claim further restrictions would be against the GPL
[18:01] <YokoZar> I am 100% with you tehre Riddell
[18:01] <Riddell> and if it was to be added to BSD type licenced packages only then that would need to be stated before that copy is given
[18:01] <YokoZar> The new copyright would obviously be a derivative of the code itself
[18:01] <Riddell> but it's not, ubuntu is distributed around the world on hundreds of mirrors
[18:01] <Riddell> there is no extra copyright licence added to it
[18:02] <popey> Riddell: it specifically says "modified versions"
[18:02] <popey> mirrors are not making modified versions
[18:02] <Riddell> I review every package in the archive as an archive admin and none of them have any extra restrictions from canonical
[18:02] <Riddell> popey: regarless, this is free software, you can modify all you like
[18:02] <Riddell> else it's not free software
[18:02] <popey> This is a trademark issue though surely?
[18:02] <popey> <- not a lawyer
[18:02] <Riddell> sure
[18:02] <YokoZar> And arguably any package built this way is being licensed the same as its code via the license attached to it.
[18:02] <Riddell> the canonical IP policy talks about that and that's fine
[18:02] <popey> not a software licensing issue
[18:03] <valorie> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
[18:03] <popey> this has nothing technically to do with licensing the software, its use of the name
[18:03] <popey> "Ubuntu"
[18:03] <Riddell> but it also talks about needing to recompile binaries, which is nonsense
[18:03] <mdeslaur> Riddell: how else do you remove the trademarks?
[18:03] <popey> that sounds like anti-mint-ification to me
[18:03] <YokoZar> The problem is that "arguably" in there.  The only context this came up was in granting Mint a license to keep doing what they were doing for free and not actually contest it, so I didn't see it as a particular issue at the time
[18:03] <valorie> "Freedom to distribute (freedoms 2 and 3) means you are free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution, to anyone anywhere. Being free to do these things means (among other things) that you do not have to ask or pay for permission to do so. "
[18:04] <Riddell> that popey and YokoZar are talking about different laws suggests this issue is just deliberately made murky by canonical in the hope of putting off anyone from making a derivative distro
[18:04] <beuno> it isn't
[18:04] <beuno> and there's no evidence to that
[18:04] <popey> indeed, it's not.
[18:05] <popey> I wasn't involved in the discussion, so my input here is speculation and interpretation.
[18:05] <Riddell> YokoZar: no, the context I care about is support from Blue Systems who are worried by what it means for kubuntu's freedom
[18:05] <hggdh> Riddell: I doubt it is canonical murkying it -- copyright, etc is extremely murky due to pressure from old players
[18:05] <popey> This needs input from Steve George IMO.
[18:05] <popey> directly.
[18:05] <Riddell> hggdh: they are making it murky by not stating where the extra restrictions are and if they are copyright of trademark
[18:05] <popey> His team "owns" that document.
[18:06] <popey> If it's inaccurate or misleading, or against a license we use, then he is the person who should be accountable for that.
[18:06] <YokoZar> Riddell: On the particular copyright issue, my best belief is that there is a colorable legal argument to Canonical's claim that you need to recompile to wash away all their rights.  They might lose in court though, but it won't be tossed instantly.
[18:06] <hggdh> Riddell: ack. I suld suggest the CC pinging canonical's legal
[18:06] <hggdh> (as popey just stated, BTW)
[18:07] <beuno> I don't think it's about recompiling, it's about re-packaging things so they don't have "ubuntu" in the name
[18:07] <YokoZar> And I don't particularly ascribe any maliciousness here, as so far I haven't seen any actual action come out of that policy other than granting Mint 100% permission.  If they took a stand against Blue Systems I'd probably join your side Riddell
[18:07] <popey> Indeed, this sounds very much like Red Hat -> CentOS rebuilding of yore to me.
[18:08] <hggdh> yeah
[18:08] <YokoZar> beuno: The trademark issues are well-established.  But hypothetically they wouldn't require recompiling to remove the branded marks, merely covering them up (eg dpkg-diversions)
[18:09] <YokoZar> On another technical note, this whole issue gets mooted by reproducible builds
[18:09] <beuno> sure
[18:10] <hggdh> in copyrights and trademarks experience has shown that a lot of times what could be ascribed to malice is actually a communication issue
[18:11] <elfy> I'm not sure that a short catch up meeting with us will do this subject service, we can do as popey suggests and contact Steve George
[18:11] <YokoZar> And lawyers speak an entirely different language.
[18:11] <hggdh> +1 (FWIW)
[18:11] <valorie> it's not like this is a new issue; rather a long-simmering one
[18:12] <hggdh> I think Riddell's questions are important enough to be looked at
[18:12] <YokoZar> The specific question I'd have will be regarding how reproducible builds will be affected by copyright (ie, in a world where anyone produces identical binaries to the canonical infrastructure)
[18:12] <YokoZar> I can only imagine that clarifying they're free
[18:12] <YokoZar> or, rather, the same license as the package itself
[18:12] <pleia2> valorie: indeed, and we really have put a lot of work and discussion into this
[18:13] <Riddell> I would expect the CC to ask that the statement that derivatives "will need to recompile the source code to create your own binaries" be removed
[18:13] <Riddell> which won't happen, this is hardly a new issue
[18:13] <popey> But you're not a derivative, so why does this affect you?
[18:13] <Riddell> in which case ask for exactly what restriction allows this to be claimed and how it's compatible with the ubuntu licence policy
[18:14] <Riddell> popey: because I care about my derivatives
[18:14] <hggdh> Riddell: at least a more expanded explanation of why this is considered as needed
[18:14] <popey> okay.
[18:14] <valorie> we are a derivitive according to the derivitives page
[18:14] <Riddell> we have large rollouts and people interested in using and investing in kubuntu and I don't want them to be put off as they are being
[18:14] <valorie> unfortunately
[18:14] <popey> It does explicitly say you're a special kind of derivative, a flavour, although also spells it flavor.
[18:15] <popey> Ok, understood.
[18:15] <valorie> lol
[18:15] <pleia2> valorie: kubuntu is a flavor, the derivitives page is a bug :)
[18:15] <popey> I disagree
[18:15] <pleia2> heh
[18:16] <popey> ☻
[18:19] <pleia2> alright, we'll start a thread on the CC list to have other CC members look at this too, I don't know that we can come up with any other conclusion at this point
[18:20] <pleia2> I think YokoZar has some todo list items too
[18:21] <YokoZar> Yeah I'm gonna consult independent copyright experts again (not Canonical-legal, who must "zealously" represent Canonical only)
[18:21] <valorie> I hope you can make the needle move
[18:21] <pleia2> thanks YokoZar
[18:21] <elfy> thanks YokoZar
[18:21] <valorie> because this is definitely a problem for us
[18:21] <elfy> we know valorie
[18:21] <pleia2> thanks for coming valorie, Riddell and sgclark, you all do great work
[18:22] <pleia2> #topic Any other business
[18:22] <pleia2> do we having anything else?
[18:22] <elfy> not here
[18:22] <pleia2> ok, thanks everyone
[18:22] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[18:22] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct  2 18:22:43 2014 UTC.
[18:22] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-02-17.13.moin.txt
[21:07] <belkinsa> FJKong, are you ready for the Membership Board meeting that is in 56 minutes?
[21:30] <FJKong> belkinsa: yes
[21:31] <FJKong> belkinsa: I just got up, it is 5:30, lol
[21:35] <belkinsa> Ah, i see.  We are doing in #ubuntu-meeting, this channel is really for the Board members to talk about applicants if needed.
[21:35] <belkinsa> Er, nevermind on what I said there.
[21:35] <belkinsa> Wrong channel!
[21:36] <FJKong> belkinsa: wrong channel?
[21:36] <belkinsa> I thought you were in #ubuntu-rmb for some reason.
[21:37] <FJKong> belkinsa: I just join in that channel
[21:38] <belkinsa> No, like I said, that channel for us not the applicants, unless someone has a question for us
[21:38] <FJKong> ah, I see
[22:00] <iulian> Okay, time to start.
[22:00] <iulian> #startmeeting
[22:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct  2 22:00:22 2014 UTC.  The chair is iulian. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[22:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:00] <popey> hello
[22:00] <marcoceppi> o/
[22:00] <belkinsa> FJKong, ready?
[22:00] <belkinsa> o/
[22:00] <iulian> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 2200 UTC meeting for October 2, 2014.
[22:00] <FJKong> belkinsa: yes
[22:00] <belkinsa> Perfect, good luck.
[22:00] <FJKong> belkinsa: ready for me
[22:01] <FJKong> belkinsa: thanks
[22:01] <belkinsa> :D
[22:01] <iulian> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
[22:01] <iulian> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers amounts to at least +1, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
[22:02] <iulian> #votesrequired 4
[22:02] <meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
[22:02] <iulian> #voters hggdh marcoceppi belkinsa popey iulian
[22:02] <meetingology> Current voters: belkinsa hggdh iulian marcoceppi popey
[22:02] <iulian> #subtopic Fanjun Kong
[22:03] <iulian> FJKong: Hi there. Could you please introduce yourself?
[22:03] <FJKong> iulian: sure
[22:03] <FJKong> hello everyone, my name is FanJun Kong, I am 29 years old, live in Beijing, China. I work for canonical at Desktop team since last year. Before join canonical,
[22:03] <FJKong> I worked for SUSE for 3 years.
[22:03] <FJKong> I start to use linux since 2005.
[22:03] <FJKong> My wiki page is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FanjunKong
[22:04] <FJKong> my lp page is here: https://launchpad.net/~fjkong
[22:04] <FJKong> sogou pinyin for linux: http://pinyin.sogou.com/linux/
[22:04] <FJKong> ubuntu kylin : http://www.ubuntukylin.com/
[22:05] <FJKong> I add that two links, I think it maybe helpful
[22:05] <belkinsa> Is there anyone here to root for FJKong or say something about him?
[22:05] <iulian> FJKong: Yep, that's brilliant. Thanks very much.
[22:05] <popey> Nice feedback from didrocks laney and seb128
[22:05] <hggdh> yep
[22:05] <FJKong> the project in my lp is pravite, not public so you may can't see it
[22:06] <FJKong> private
[22:06] <FJKong> sorry
[22:06] <hggdh> FJKong: why private?
[22:07] <FJKong> hggdh: the code for sogou is not opensource yet
[22:07] <FJKong> hggdh: It may open later, but not now
[22:07] <hggdh> OK. Then it does not count here
[22:08] <FJKong> hggdh: but we still have a opensource version here:https://github.com/lenky0401/fcitx-qimpanel
[22:08] <iulian> FJKong: Thank you for the information. I think we are ready to vote now.
[22:08] <FJKong> I also join in that one
[22:08] <FJKong> iulian: ok
[22:08] <iulian> #vote FJKong to obtain Ubuntu Membership.
[22:08] <meetingology> Please vote on: FJKong to obtain Ubuntu Membership.
[22:08] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:08] <iulian> +1
[22:08] <meetingology> +1 received from iulian
[22:08] <popey> +1
[22:08] <meetingology> +1 received from popey
[22:08] <belkinsa> +1 Keep up the good work!
[22:08] <meetingology> +1 Keep up the good work! received from belkinsa
[22:09] <hggdh> +1
[22:09] <meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
[22:09] <iulian> marcoceppi?
[22:09] <FJKong> great thank you, guys
[22:09] <marcoceppi> +1
[22:09] <meetingology> +1 received from marcoceppi
[22:09] <iulian> #endvote
[22:09] <meetingology> Voting ended on: FJKong to obtain Ubuntu Membership.
[22:09] <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[22:09] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:09] <iulian> FJKong: Congrats!
[22:09] <hggdh> FJKong: welcome, and please do keep on :-)
[22:09] <belkinsa> Alrightty, I will add you the team and tell the world that you are one now.
[22:09] <iulian> #endmeeting
[22:09] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct  2 22:09:51 2014 UTC.
[22:09] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-02-22.00.moin.txt
[22:10] <belkinsa> \o/ FJKong
[22:10] <FJKong> thanks for your voting, I will keep working on that
[22:10] <belkinsa> Thanks everyone for the meeting
[22:10] <popey> that was quick!
[22:10] <FJKong> belkinsa: thanks belkinsa
[22:10] <iulian> belkinsa: I've already added him to ~ubuntumembers.
[22:11] <belkinsa> Not a problem, FJKong.
[22:11] <belkinsa> This is belkinsa signing out.
[22:11] <cwayne> hi guys, sorry I'm late! have I missed the vote?
[22:12] <hggdh> cwayne: just missed it
[22:12] <cwayne> :(
[22:12] <cwayne> hggdh: was there a quorum?
[22:13] <hggdh> cwayne: yes, we were covered
[22:13] <cwayne> phew, I'd have felt terrible if we missed it because of me! what was the verdict?
[22:14] <hggdh> FJKong was approved, and is the newest Ubuntu member
[22:14] <FJKong> cwayne: hi cwayne
[22:15] <cwayne> good, I was going to vote +1 too :)
[22:15] <FJKong> cwayne: thank you
[22:17] <cwayne> FJKong: np, welcome :)