[16:00] <barry> o/
[16:00] <sil2100> \o
[16:01]  * stgraber waves
[16:01] <stgraber> #startmeeting Foundations team meeting
[16:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  6 16:01:14 2014 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:01] <jodh> o/
[16:01] <stgraber> #topic Round table
[16:01] <mvo> hi
[16:02] <stgraber> stgraber@dakara:~$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
[16:02] <stgraber> bdmurray sil2100 infinity barry doko mvo cjwatson caribou robru stgraber jodh
[16:02] <stgraber> hopefully I didn't forget anyone :)
[16:02] <bdmurray> updated daisy/retracer.py to use gdb to see if a core file is valid
[16:02] <bdmurray> resolved retracer corrupt core file detection issue in daisy r565
[16:02] <bdmurray> updated daisy/submit.py to not ask for core files from click packages
[16:02] <bdmurray> updated daisy-retracer charm cronjob to start counting 15.04 users
[16:02] <bdmurray> investigation into where click package counters appear in the error tracker
[16:02] <bdmurray> submitted RTs to have daisy updated on production to r562, r564, r565
[16:02] <bdmurray> research into seb128's file-roller retracing failure (missing ddebs)
[16:02] <bdmurray> tested crash reporting from Live CDs
[16:02] <bdmurray> verified apport and whoopsie are working from live cds in utopic (not update-notifier though)
[16:03] <bdmurray> uploaded whoopsie to vivid that will run if ubiquity-dm is running
[16:03] <bdmurray> uploaded casper to vivid that allows inotify on /var/crash to work
[16:03] <bdmurray> email to ubuntu quality about crash reporting from Live CDs
[16:03] <bdmurray> SRU verification of apport bug LP: #1354571 (invalid core dumps)
[16:03] <bdmurray> attempted SRU verification of apport bug LP: #1372665 (unable to recreate original issue)
[16:03] <bdmurray> wrote a clickhook.py (apport hook) to gather package information about click packages
[16:03] <bdmurray> uploaded clickhook.py to vivid thereby improving the situation for apport bug LP: #1365079
[16:03] <bdmurray> verified the interim solution for apport bug 1365079 (click package info for crashes)
[16:03] <bdmurray> reported whoopsie bug LP: #1389357 regarding CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER
[16:03] <bdmurray> reported whoopsie-preferences bug regarding apport / whoopsie running LP: #1389407
[16:03] <bdmurray> worked with davmor2 regarding his whoopsie-identifier issue
[16:03] <bdmurray> came up with a plan for distribution-upgrade crash reports and EoL releases
[16:03] <bdmurray> IS / UE sync up call
[16:03] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[16:03] <sil2100> o/
[16:03] <sil2100> - Landing team work, preparing landing e-mails
[16:03] <sil2100> - Coordinating image promotion to ubuntu-rtm
[16:03] <sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and features:
[16:03] <sil2100>   * Switching native RTM builds to use 15.04 in their version numbers
[16:03] <sil2100>   * Some small work related to changelog bug number fixes...
[16:03] <sil2100> - More on updating the Landing Team documentation
[16:04] <sil2100>   * Added SupportedDevices
[16:04] <sil2100>   * Updated LandingTeamProcess with latest information
[16:04] <sil2100>   * Misc changes here and there
[16:04] <sil2100> - Discussions related to image readiness (for RTM)
[16:04] <sil2100> - Preparations for UOS - poking for sessions
[16:04] <sil2100> - Gathering intel on missing landings from ubuntu-rtm in vivid
[16:04] <sil2100>   * Writing some helper scripts for that
[16:04] <sil2100>   * Still need some time to finish up the proper list of non-synced changes
[16:04] <sil2100> - Bug reviews for subsequent RTM milestones
[16:04] <sil2100> - Discussions regarding the landing and promotion process for milestones
[16:04] <sil2100> - Announcement e-mails (again!)
[16:04] <sil2100> Holidays: next week off \o/
[16:04] <sil2100> (done)
[16:04] <barry> no infinity?
[16:05] <barry> system-image: 2.5.1 landed in rtm.  LP: #1374459 landed in trunk (for 3.0).
[16:05] <barry> debuntu: LP: #1387323; LP: #1381177; vivid upgraded one machine so far so good; looking at rc bugs for jessie and filed debian bug #768334
[16:05] <slangasek> no infinity this morning, no
[16:05] <barry> other: helped with lots of interviews for open team positions
[16:05] <barry> (done)
[16:05] <doko> I'll go at the end ...
[16:05] <mvo> Short version to avoid being confused with people who write very long activity reports ;)
[16:05] <mvo> Worked on apt (new abi breaking release coming soon, prepare for some
[16:05] <mvo> turbulences), click, system-image, helped the SDK team and scopes
[16:05] <mvo> team, did merges. We have a i386/arm core image now :) But its still
[16:05] <mvo> too big :(
[16:05] <mvo> [full 61 lines gtimelog data available on request ;)]
[16:05] <mvo> (done)
[16:05] <cjwatson> I've been on vacation, and am on conference leave today and tomorrow at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Miniconf-UK/2014
[16:06] <mvo> nice!
[16:06] <cjwatson> (just happened to notice the highlight in this channel at the right time)
[16:06] <caribou> ok, i'm next
[16:06] <caribou> * BugFix : Ongoing work on libnss-ldap Critical bug LP: #1387594 - Merge waiting for sponsorship - Will then SRU
[16:07] <caribou> * BugFix : Ubuntu Cloud Archive incompatibility between IceHouse and Precise
[16:07] <caribou>   - Fix commited to U.C.A
[16:07] <caribou> * Preparing merge of my packages
[16:07] <caribou> * Investigation on SystemD
[16:07] <caribou> * Finalize makedumpfile/kdump-tools test environment
[16:07] <caribou> (done)
[16:08] <robru> * citrain
[16:08] <robru>  - fixed it to stop considering a merged merge as 'not Approved' (this makes it easier to do trunk releases using an already-merged merge)
[16:08] <robru>  - simplified some redundant code
[16:08] <robru>  - massive overhaul changing relative paths into absolute paths. not finished yet, but I *think* I fixed the bug where it cd's into the wrong dir and then creates a bunch of files and then can't find them later because they're not in the right place. using absolute paths ensures everything is where we expect it to be regardless of the cwd.
[16:08] <robru> * various and sundry landings as well
[16:08] <robru> (done)
[16:08] <stgraber> oh, it's me already?
[16:09] <stgraber>  - lxc:
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Updated the upstream images to not run sshd by default
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Updated the upstream images to not setup default passwords
[16:09] <stgraber>       (instead recommend using lxc-attach)
[16:09] <stgraber>  - lxd:
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Public announcement and answering questions about it
[16:09] <stgraber>       http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud/tools/lxd
[16:09] <stgraber>       https://lists.linuxcontainers.org/pipermail/lxc-devel/2014-November/010817.html
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Setup the project (contributing guidelines, licensing, ...)
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Pushed an initial specification for the client user experience:
[16:09] <stgraber>       https://github.com/lxc/lxd/blob/master/specs/command-line-user-experience.md
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Initial reviews for the first few pull requests
[16:09] <stgraber>  - system-image
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Published operation documentation at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImageBasedUpgrades/ServerOperation
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Did some testing of image reverts to make sure things are now solid
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Discussed bug 1387214 and potential ways of recovering from fs corruption
[16:09] <stgraber>  - other
[16:09] <stgraber>     - SRU reviews
[16:09] <stgraber>     - DB review and restore for the ISO Tracker following the Drupal CVE
[16:09] <stgraber>  - kernel
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Tracked down a regression in 3.16 on servers with recent Intel NIC
[16:09] <stgraber>       spamming dmesg with a WARN per packet due to broken code in hardware
[16:09] <stgraber>       offloading (affecting my home hardware).
[16:09] <stgraber>     - Wrote and published an exploit for the IPv6 neighborhood table overflow.
[16:09] <stgraber>       http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/containers/2014-November/035292.html
[16:09] <stgraber>  
[16:10] <stgraber> (DONE)
[16:10] <jodh> * system-image:
[16:10] <jodh>   - Lots of improvements to the ubuntu-core-upgrader.
[16:10] <jodh>   - Currently writing a set of integration tests.
[16:10] <jodh> * misc: out 3 days last week.
[16:10] <jodh> ₴
[16:10] <stgraber> doko:
[16:12] <doko> - getting started with GCC 5
[16:12] <doko> - work on crashes when running the GCC testsuite on powerpc
[16:12] <doko> - binutils update and backports
[16:12] <doko> - updated two local machines to 14.10
[16:12] <doko> (done)
[16:12] <stgraber> slangasek: do you have something read to copy/paste or are you too busy?
[16:12] <slangasek> stgraber: nothing from me, sorry
[16:12] <stgraber> ok
[16:13] <stgraber> Does anyone have something to present? (guess not, but can't hurt to ask)
[16:13] <sil2100> ENOTIME for most people I suspect
[16:14] <stgraber> yeah, figured as much
[16:14] <stgraber> #topic AOB
[16:14] <stgraber> anything else?
[16:14] <bdmurray> Next Tuesday is a US Holiday - Veteran's Day
[16:14] <bdmurray> So I'll be out then
[16:14]  * barry will very likely swap day it
[16:14] <bdmurray> mvo: Do you have any ideas about bug 1384946?
[16:15] <mvo> bdmurray: not right now, let me look
[16:15] <bdmurray> during a P to T upgrade gnuplot-x11 and gnuplot-nox are kept, but then conflict on upgrade to Utopic
[16:15] <mvo> bdmurray: meh, I think you asked me about this before, didn't you? sorry for that
[16:15] <bdmurray> mvo: yeah, but it was at the end of the sprint. ;-)
[16:16]  * mvo nods
[16:17] <bdmurray> that's it from me
[16:18]  * mvo does not have anything else either
[16:18] <stgraber> alright
[16:18] <stgraber> thanks everyone!
[16:18] <stgraber> #endmeeting
[16:18] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  6 16:18:46 2014 UTC.
[16:18] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-06-16.01.moin.txt
[16:18] <barry> thanks!
[16:18] <mvo> thanks
[16:18] <sil2100> o/
[16:19] <caribou> thanks stgraber
[16:19] <mvo> stgraber: short meeting, you should always lead it :)
[16:20] <stgraber> well, it's quick when you don't have to wait on people :)
[16:20] <jodh> thanks!
[16:22] <bdmurray> mvo: and its quick when you don't paste a short story. ;-)
[17:05] <czajkowski> aloha
[17:05] <elfy> #startmeeting
[17:05] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  6 17:05:42 2014 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:05] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:05] <elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:06] <elfy> Hi everyone - it's time for this weeks CC meeting with the Forum Council and Core Apps
[17:06] <elfy> first up is the Forum Council - and I'm the only one from the FC here - so ...
[17:07] <elfy> #chair YokoZar czajkowski mhall119
[17:07] <meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski elfy mhall119
[17:07] <YokoZar> Morning then ;)
[17:07] <elfy> :)
[17:07] <YokoZar> Put on your other hat please
[17:07] <elfy> t'is on :)
[17:07] <mhall119> hello everyone
[17:08] <mhall119> elfy: so how is the FC doing these days?
[17:08] <elfy> pretty good thanks
[17:08] <mhall119> IIRC, the last checkup we had there were some issues with the bots and/or some people
[17:08] <mhall119> or was that the IRCC...
[17:08] <elfy> we've had quite a bit going on lately
[17:08] <elfy> yea - that was ircc :)
[17:09] <elfy> forum was 10 last month
[17:09] <elfy> there's been a lot of work we've done to clear up some of the sub-forums, but that's an ongoing issue
[17:09] <mhall119> is the FC fully staffed and is everybody active?
[17:09] <elfy> we started to blog about forum things too
[17:10] <elfy> nope - not fully staffed
[17:10] <elfy> we had a resignation from Iowan
[17:10] <mhall119> ok, have you called for nominations yet?
[17:10] <elfy> we're not in a huge rush with that
[17:11] <elfy> mhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil/TeamNomination#Procedure_for_nomination_of_moderation_team_member_to_Forum_Council
[17:11] <elfy> we'd hope to be somewhere close to contacting the CC in a couple of months at the most
[17:11] <YokoZar> Has forums usage been trending up or down?
[17:12] <elfy> YokoZar: it's pretty static, with the normal upswing in April/May and October/November
[17:13] <mhall119> elfy: how has the migration to SSO gone?
[17:14] <elfy> well - the best that can be said is that it happened
[17:14] <mhall119> heh, fair enough
[17:14] <mhall119> any outstanding issues from that?
[17:14] <mhall119> or anything else that you need help/feedback from Canonical on?
[17:14] <elfy> only that we would like to be on a level footing with other services that use SSO
[17:15] <elfy> the major issue our users have is that they get logged out
[17:15] <elfy> I logged into AU 6 months ago - if I go back I'm still logged in
[17:15] <elfy> with the forum if you don't visit it within 24 hours you get logged out
[17:16] <elfy> for AU read anything that we can use SSO with :)
[17:16] <elfy> while I personally don't have an issue as I'm not away for longer than 12 hours - others hate it :)
[17:16] <elfy> and of course it's the 6 of us that get hit with that stick :)
[17:17] <mhall119> elfy: is there an RT filed for that?
[17:17] <elfy> if Canonical can help to get a bit of traction on that - we'd be over the moon - even if it's a definitive IS can't do that because of vB/SSO
[17:17] <elfy> I think so mhall119 - I can dig it out later
[17:18] <mhall119> it wouldn't be SSO, it's consumer-website specific I think
[17:18] <mhall119> summit has a long session live, while etherpad has a short one, for example
[17:18] <elfy> possibly - don't know - I just know what they've said in the past
[17:18] <elfy> yes - etherpad is a few hours at most
[17:19] <mhall119> elfy: if you have an RT send it my way and I'll try and get a status update on it
[17:19] <elfy> I'll let you know the ticket
[17:19] <mhall119> if you don't have an RT, file one and then do the same :)
[17:19] <elfy> yep - cool
[17:20] <elfy> I think that's about it from me
[17:20] <czajkowski> elfy: I know the work you do is great and I do see the FC has raised its awareness from you, but are there other voices in there I worry it all falls on your shoulder
[17:20] <elfy> oh - we're discussing ways to shout out recurring issues that people on forum are reporting
[17:21] <elfy> eg we get a LOT of threads from people usinig LVM and not watching /boot filling up
[17:21] <elfy> czajkowski: it's mostly the time for these meeetings - others were hoping to be here today, bapoumba howefield
[17:22] <elfy> others have work timing issues
[17:22] <czajkowski> nds ok
[17:22] <YokoZar> Huh, ok
[17:22] <elfy> and the FC is actually a lot noiser internally than just me saying things :)
[17:22] <mhall119> that's good to hear
[17:23] <elfy> YokoZar: what does that mean :)
[17:23] <mhall119> elfy: so how are you promoting those recurring issues? Bug reports?
[17:24] <YokoZar> Sticky threads with links, I'd imagine.
[17:24] <elfy> when there is existing reports - we make sure to link the bug into threads
[17:24] <mhall119> ok
[17:24] <elfy> YokoZar: not yet
[17:24] <elfy> this is quite a recent discussion - like a fortnight at most
[17:25] <elfy> what we DON'T want to do - is point people at bugs generally, people just add pointless comment rather than me too it
[17:25] <mhall119> elfy: if there isn't an existing bug report, do mods create one, or ask the original poster to create one?
[17:25] <elfy> and that just annoys rather than helps
[17:26] <elfy> mhall119: as I said this is quite new discussion - but we did do one with the /boot partition filling issue
[17:26] <mhall119> ok
[17:26] <mhall119> I'm wondering if there's a good way to let the developers know that these are recurring issues on the forums...
[17:26] <elfy> well - that's kind of the thinking
[17:26] <mhall119> other than having more people mark it as affecting them
[17:27] <elfy> bug reports is the way to start it for sure
[17:27]  * mhall119 puts his Canonical Community Team hat on
[17:28] <elfy> but possible start would be a similar thing with UWN
[17:28] <mhall119> let me know what the FC decides on that and if we can help organize and promote the effort
[17:28]  * mhall119 pop hat
[17:28] <elfy> like the AU stats - but we'd need to manually do it, sort of "We're seeing a lot of people with foo"
[17:28] <elfy> ok mhall119 - thanks :)
[17:29] <mhall119> any other questions or comments for the Forums Council?
[17:30] <mhall119> guess not, thank you elfy :)
[17:30] <elfy> welcome - thanks mhall119 czajkowski YokoZar
[17:30] <mhall119> #topic Core Apps checkin
[17:31] <mhall119> popey: around and ready?
[17:31] <elfy> I'll put my other hat back on now :)
[17:31] <popey> ya
[17:31] <elfy> hi popey
[17:31] <popey> Wassup CC
[17:31] <mhall119> so I really don't have questions, since I have a weekly call with popey on this topic
[17:31] <popey> Ok, lemme say a couple of things for the logs..
[17:32] <popey> Since the last time we spoke, we had a Canonical Devices sprint in Washington DC
[17:32]  * mhall119 missed out
[17:32] <popey> We invited 8 of the core apps developers, and 2 developers who were not "core apps" technically
[17:32] <popey> but they were developers of apps in the store, who were heavy users of the SDK
[17:32] <popey> It was _awesome_
[17:33] <popey> (slightly less awesome than it could have been because mhall119 wasn't there of course) :D
[17:33] <popey> There's been a bunch of blog posts from various people about their experience.
[17:33] <mhall119> :)
[17:33] <popey> They were all very professional, friendly, productive and helpful.
[17:34] <mhall119> I'm glad they had so much face-time with the platform and SDK teams to give them feedback and get support
[17:34] <popey> We got _so_ much done in that week.
[17:34] <popey> We need to do more in-person events.
[17:34] <popey> Not necessarily "Lets do UDS again", but more "Lets do more in person things"
[17:34] <mhall119> I think we're all in agreement on that
[17:34] <czajkowski> nods
[17:34] <YokoZar> hah, ok
[17:35] <popey> The fact that there were 230 people in one venue meant we could go and grab people and have conversations to sort issues out
[17:35] <popey> loads of those hallway conversations we used to have
[17:35] <czajkowski> popey: I think it's nice to see happen, however to many it was still odd to see as they are not included and have no way of being involved as not core dev - also the line of men there didn't really show diversity.  I appreciate this isn't dwn to you but to many women it may appear rather exclusive.
[17:35] <YokoZar> There's a reason silicon valley is a physical location ;)
[17:36] <popey> czajkowski: I think you're raising two issues there.
[17:36] <popey> let me see.
[17:36] <popey> 1) non core apps people aren't invited
[17:36] <popey> 2) not diverse enough
[17:36] <popey> Am I right?
[17:36] <YokoZar> czajkowski: Unfortunately I feel that live events will always surface our underlying diversity problem
[17:37] <popey> Well, taking 2) first, 220 of the people were Canonical employees. I have near-zero influence on the hiring process of my employer.
[17:37] <popey> It is a fact that the vast majority of engineers in the company are men.
[17:37] <mhall119> this is kind of off the subject of core apps
[17:37] <mhall119> can we finish that topic first?
[17:37] <popey> Indeed, however it does lead to the second thing.
[17:38] <popey> I would like to see more diversity in core apps specifically.
[17:38] <popey> because that _is_ all guys.
[17:38] <popey> I will take an action to look at how I can improve that, thanks czajkowski
[17:38] <mhall119> popey: something like a OPW for Core Apps?
[17:38] <popey> OPW?
[17:38] <mhall119> outreach program for women, the (I think) GNOME initiative
[17:39] <popey> Ah okay. Sure.
[17:39] <popey> I'm happy to have ideas thrown at me, and have a session at Open Week if you think it's useful?
[17:39] <czajkowski> popey: thanks
[17:39] <czajkowski> I do understand it's not all down to you
[17:40] <popey> Sure, but I'm one of the people who recruit devs for core apps, so it kinda is ☻
[17:40] <popey> But it's now on my list, where previously it was at the back of my mind.
[17:40] <popey> thanks.
[17:40] <popey> So anyway, back to core apps.
[17:40] <mhall119> +1 for an Open Week or UOS session on that topic
[17:40] <popey> The event gave us a spurt of work during the week, and after too.
[17:41] <popey> We still need to recruit more developers as some of them are busy / burning out / spread thin
[17:41]  * czajkowski hugs popey thank you! 
[17:41] <popey> and we'll certainly talk about that at UOS next week.
[17:41] <popey> Do you have any specific questions for me?
[17:42] <YokoZar> Regarding CoreApps -- I've seen some chatter online about how Canonical's focus might be a bit unclear with all the different directions it's going lately.  I'm beginning to wonder if this is related to the lack of UDS keynotes.
[17:42] <mhall119> so the topic has come up a couple of times before about giving app developers a path to Ubuntu Membership, I'd like to see some movemement on that
[17:42] <popey> YokoZar: Ah, now that's an interesting point.
[17:42] <mhall119> YokoZar: how is that related to Core Apps/
[17:42] <mhall119> ?
[17:43] <popey> its tangentially related.
[17:43] <YokoZar> CoreApps is the newest thing in that sense, and I'm wondering how we can show this sort of commitment clearly
[17:43] <popey> I had a conversation with Rick Spencer in DC where he was surprised to hear about (some opinion / thoughts from the community)
[17:44] <popey> I think he thought we'd communicated (this thing that I wont say but doesn't matter to this conversation) well, but actually it seems people in the wider user/developer community possibly had the wrong end of the stick
[17:44] <popey> and that as a result perhaps we aren't communicating our overall strategy clearly
[17:44] <popey> some of that is partly down to the usual commercial contractual obligations (the devices we can't talk about)
[17:44] <popey> but I think there is room for more "Keynote" style "Trajectory setting"
[17:45] <popey> because we're all heads-down working hard, coming up for air now and then
[17:45] <popey> and the community / users / bloggers are getting the wrong end of the stick in a lot of ways
[17:45] <popey> related to devices / convergence / click / packaging / unity 8 etc
[17:45] <mhall119> didn't rick do such a keynote last UOS?
[17:45] <popey> yeah, but with all due respect, rick isn't mark standing on stage giving a keynote
[17:46] <popey> nearly _nobody_ blogs about what rick says
[17:46] <popey> mark says "we're doing bunnies this year" and bloggers go mental for it.
[17:46] <popey> Hope that semi-ramble makes sense.
[17:48] <popey> ...
[17:48] <elfy> it did to me
[17:51] <YokoZar> It makes perfect sense
[17:51] <mhall119> so we need rick to grow a beard then? :)
[17:52] <popey> Yes.
[17:52] <mhall119> ok, I've got a TODO to follow up with mark about a UOS keynote, so I'll work on that
[17:53] <mhall119> any other questions or comments for popey about core apps?
[17:53] <elfy> not here
[17:55] <elfy> thanks from me popey - gtg for a bit now :)
[17:55] <popey> thanks elfy
[17:58] <mhall119> #topic open
[17:58] <mhall119> any other topics for the CC before we wrap up?
[17:58] <YokoZar> Thanks folks
[17:59] <mhall119> ok, thanks everyone!
[17:59] <mhall119> #endmeeting
[17:59] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  6 17:59:34 2014 UTC.
[17:59] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-06-17.05.moin.txt
[21:00] <Riddell> hola chicos!
[21:01] <yofel> o/
[21:01] <sgclark> hi
[21:01] <shadeslayer> hey
[21:01] <Riddell> who's here for a kubuntu-dev meeting to discuss sgclark membership?
[21:01] <valorie> o/
[21:01] <sgclark> me
[21:01] <valorie> always lovely to see more kubuntu devels
[21:01] <valorie> :-)
[21:01] <shadeslayer> me me me
[21:01] <debfx> o/
[21:02] <Riddell> sgclark: what's your wiki page and tell us who you are
[21:02] <Riddell> just incase we forgot
[21:03] <sgclark> Hello https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sgclark/DeveloperApplication I am this crazy packaging lady that is extending her knowledge to learn every aspect of Kubuntu.
[21:03] <Riddell> "I have been a packaging machine ever since" too right
[21:04] <sgclark> hehe
[21:04] <Riddell> sgclark: technical question do you know why my upload of kde-workspace failed today?
[21:04] <Riddell> it compiled fine
[21:04] <Riddell> but failed to get into the archive
[21:04] <Riddell> this of course is after I uploaded plasma5 including systemsettings from plasma5
[21:04] <Riddell> kde-workspace also having systemsettings from kde 4
[21:05] <sgclark> well I have to look, I was busy with k3b. Give me a min
[21:05] <Riddell> answer is still on launchpad indeed https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-workspace/4:4.11.12-0ubuntu2/+build/6543457
[21:06]  * Riddell invites others to give questions
[21:07] <shadeslayer> I think it's better if we do it one question at a time
[21:07] <shadeslayer> :P
[21:08] <sgclark> Riddell: the debian version number was higher than what was in archive?
[21:08] <yofel> not quite, *that* would've worked
[21:09] <Riddell> it was lower
[21:10] <shadeslayer> sgclark: this package hasn't migrated from proposed to release, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/polarssl/1.3.9-1 , can you tell me why?
[21:10] <Riddell> ooh that's a tricky one
[21:10] <shadeslayer> ( I know it's not a KDE package, but that doesn't really matter :P )
[21:10] <shadeslayer> Riddell: oh I have another one up my sleeve :P
[21:11] <sgclark> Riddell: the package is missing the epoch?
[21:11]  * stgraber takes some notes, good questions to re-use for some DMB applicants :)
[21:11] <shadeslayer> oh stgraber's here too :D
[21:12] <Riddell> sgclark: nope, it's cos the plasma5 systemsettings has a higher version number, so when I upload kde-workspace it also makes a systemsettings .deb but the lower version number means it can't go in the archive
[21:13]  * Riddell struggling with shadeslayer's question
[21:13] <shadeslayer> lol
[21:13] <Riddell> sgclark: do you know where to look to look into shadeslayer's question?
[21:13] <shadeslayer> I'm more than happy to provide a hint ;)
[21:13] <sgclark> no I don't
[21:14] <shadeslayer> sgclark: try http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
[21:16] <debfx> update_excuses is often not that helpful
[21:16] <Riddell> not in this case it's not
[21:16] <shadeslayer> right, but you need to figure out what to do after you land at that page :P
[21:16] <shadeslayer> and when it gives you no information at all
[21:16] <debfx> evil shadeslayer ^^
[21:16] <Riddell> sgclark: just say if you don't know, we'll get an easier question
[21:17] <Riddell> proposed migrations are the kind of fun you only deal with once you get upload privilages
[21:17] <sgclark> I am sorry I don't knopw
[21:17] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what's the answer?
[21:17] <shadeslayer> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output.txt
[21:17] <shadeslayer> makes packages uninstallable on i386
[21:17] <shadeslayer> some recommended reading : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration
[21:17] <shadeslayer> ( link at the top of the html page I linked earlier actually ;)
[21:18] <sgclark> bookmarked
[21:18] <shadeslayer> cool, lets move on :)
[21:18] <Riddell> sgclark: as an archive admin I have to review any new source and again for any new binary packages in the archive, do you know what sort of thing I'd be looking out for and that I might reject from going into the archive?
[21:18] <yofel> he does like tricky ones... You have to know where to look ^^
[21:19] <sgclark> copyright mistakes, non distributable code, no newlines at last line
[21:19] <Riddell> sgclark: yep here's an example, what's wrong with this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-archive/2014-November/048268.html
[21:19] <Riddell> I'm not too fussy about "no newlines at last line" but the other two are important :)
[21:20] <shadeslayer> oh you rejected sahara ? :D
[21:20] <sgclark> Riddell: Jar are not distributable code
[21:20] <sgclark> Riddell: source rather
[21:20] <Riddell> yeah exactly
[21:21] <Riddell> sgclark: you merged and updated k3b today, what steps did you go through to do that?
[21:22] <shadeslayer> sgclark: this one might be tricky, might not be, lets see, we pass a few flags to cmake when building packages, where are those flags defined?
[21:22] <sgclark> Riddell: first I ran grab-merge k3b, then I went through REPORT and made the necessary adjustments, then I went through every patch and made sure it was either a) applied upstream or if not I confirmed it was still needed.
[21:23] <sgclark> shadeslayer: depends on the package, kde cone are in pkg-kde-tools I believe
[21:24] <Riddell> sgclark: did you compile and test it actually ran?
[21:24] <shadeslayer> sgclark: right, where in pkg-kde-tools ?
[21:24] <sgclark> Riddell: k3b one was different as there was an upstream release, so I also had to go through normal packaging on top of merge, and yes of cource install and test to make sure it ran
[21:25] <Riddell> sgclark: full marks :)
[21:26] <yofel> sgclark: what are seeds?
[21:27] <sgclark> shadeslayer: dhmk.mk?
[21:27] <sgclark> yofel: Seeds are the lists of packages we want to include in the distribution
[21:27] <shadeslayer> sgclark: there might be one or two in there, but the bulk of them are in a plain text file
[21:28] <shadeslayer> datalib/kf5_flags in pkg-kde-tools :)
[21:28] <sgclark> shadeslayer: ty, will research more on that
[21:28] <shadeslayer> sgclark: so, we've found datalib/kf5_flags, now can you tell me what -DCMAKE_USE_RELATIVE_PATHS=ON does?
[21:28] <apachelogger> (shadeslayer only knows that because he worte it, that's cheatin)
[21:28] <yofel> sgclark: correct, do you know the difference between the desktop and the supported file?
[21:29] <Riddell> shadeslayer: I don't think I know what that is!
[21:29] <shadeslayer> Riddell: :O
[21:29] <Riddell> is it rpaths?
[21:29] <apachelogger> what is this a cmake quiz? :P
[21:29] <shadeslayer> yeah but shhhhh
[21:30] <sgclark> rpaths
[21:30] <sgclark> heh
[21:30]  * apachelogger waits for shadeslayer's follow up on that xD
[21:31] <shadeslayer> Now I don't want to ask that :P
[21:31]  * shadeslayer looks for more questions
[21:31] <apachelogger> sgclark: what is an rpath? what does it do? do we like them?
[21:31] <yofel> you could talk about dpkg's default gcc parameters :P
[21:31] <sgclark> yofel: supported packages are available from the FTP site
[21:32] <shadeslayer> xD
[21:32] <sgclark> yofel: not on CD
[21:32]  * shadeslayer pokes apachelogger to ask questions
[21:32] <sgclark> apachelogger: NO we do like like rpath , it is against debain policy
[21:32] <shadeslayer> oh you did, heh, missed that
[21:33] <sgclark> apachelogger: https://wiki.debian.org/RpathIssue
[21:33] <yofel> sgclark: not quite, but you're right that it's not on the CD - it's partly for marking packages as being maintained by us even if we do not ship them on the images (which will be relevant for you once you have upload rights) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
[21:33] <sgclark> apachelogger: no we do not rather..
[21:33]  * Riddell doesn't care about rpaths but for some reason debian does
[21:33] <sgclark> yofel: ok, thank you
[21:34] <apachelogger> sgclark: What does debian/compat do and why do we need it?
[21:35] <sgclark> apachelogger: compat sets the compatibility level and that mean the dh* rules in the rules file must match the compat level
[21:36] <apachelogger> sgclark: does it perhaps have greater impact than just which dh_ scripts are called by rules?
[21:36] <Riddell> apachelogger: I'm not sure I understand your question?
[21:37] <sgclark> apachelogger: all I see is debhelper compatibilty sorry
[21:38] <apachelogger> could it happen that a compatibility level is incorrect even though debian/rules only calls dh_ scripts available in that version of debhelper?
[21:38] <apachelogger> ..., could the build behave incorrectly or break despite that
[21:39] <sgclark> apachelogger: if the debhelper changed in some way yes it could break things
[21:39] <apachelogger> ok
[21:39] <debfx> sgclark: say you found a packaging bug in a package that has been synced from Debian. what do you do?
[21:40] <sgclark> debfx: file a bug with debian?
[21:41] <debfx> sounds good :)
[21:41] <Riddell> any more questions?
[21:41]  * sgclark wipes the sweat from her forehead
[21:41] <shadeslayer> sgclark: what does debian/links do?
[21:42] <yofel> sgclark: until which point of the development phase are you allowed to allow new upstream feature releases of a  package?
[21:42] <sgclark> shadeslayer: calls dh_link to create symlink to system packages
[21:42] <Riddell> oh I have one, sgclark: should catalunya be an independent state?  I need to work out what to vote on sunday
[21:42] <yofel> s/allow/upload/
[21:42] <shadeslayer> Riddell: the votes on Sunday? I thought it was on the 11th? :P
[21:42] <sgclark> yofel: until feature freeze
[21:42] <shadeslayer> no one's going to ask ABI questions?
[21:42] <shadeslayer> pft
[21:42] <Riddell> shadeslayer: 9N!  Volem Votar!
[21:42] <apachelogger> I thought it was canceled because of illegal?
[21:42] <yofel> good
[21:42] <sgclark> Riddell: works for me
[21:42] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: they keep changing what it's called
[21:43] <apachelogger> smart
[21:43] <yofel> shadeslayer: we're waiting for you to start them :P
[21:43] <apachelogger> sgclark: what language ar debian/rules files written in?
[21:44] <shadeslayer> sgclark: so, can you explain the process of what to do in case a ABI break happens? ( i.e. what constitutes a ABI break and how we proceed from there )
[21:44] <Riddell> I think that's enough questions
[21:44] <Riddell> let's have answers on them and then vote
[21:44] <shadeslayer> yep
[21:44] <apachelogger> mh
[21:44] <apachelogger> abi is important
[21:45] <yofel> ^
[21:45] <sgclark> apachelogger: it is a Makefile, gosh I don't know, C?
[21:45] <apachelogger> make :P
[21:45] <yofel> sgclark: gnu make is titled an official language :P
[21:45] <shadeslayer> xD
[21:45] <apachelogger> therefore you should read the make manual, and then tell shadeslayer all about it because that lazy bum didn't read it
[21:45] <shadeslayer> pft
[21:46] <shadeslayer> I'm ruby'ing
[21:46] <yofel> xD
[21:46] <shadeslayer> you can't complain
[21:46] <sgclark> shadeslayer: ABI break is when a symbol is removed and the SONAME version needs to be bumped because dependant packages will break if they try to use the function
[21:46] <shadeslayer> also, it's a freaking 1000 page manual with features that I'll probably never end up using
[21:47] <shadeslayer> sgclark: cool, sub question, what's X-Debian-ABI :D
[21:47] <sgclark> shadeslayer: When there is a #MISSING I use c++filt to get a human readable class etc and look it up on the API
[21:47] <debfx> you could just call ruby rules.rb from the makefile ;)
[21:47] <sgclark> shadeslayer: If it is private I can delete
[21:47] <shadeslayer> debfx++
[21:47] <apachelogger> sgclark: when is it private?
[21:48] <sgclark> shadeslayer: If it is public, I look up the code and spam emails to thye dev and everyone else I think that can help me to see if it needs a bump
[21:48] <sgclark> apachelogger: private, as in no one access it but internal
[21:48] <apachelogger> how can you tell?
[21:48]  * shadeslayer would answer apachelogger's question with "When it's not public"
[21:49] <yofel> #define private public :P
[21:49]  * apachelogger looks up end question
[21:49] <sgclark> shadeslayer: should I ever come across an ABI break I would use the bookmarked instructions on X-Debian-ABI
[21:49] <sgclark> and of course spam everyone again for help
[21:49] <yofel> sgclark: now, you already had it to some extent with PPA's, but how do you feel about having root access on essentially all kubuntu user systems?
[21:49] <sgclark> scared and careful
[21:49] <sgclark> yofel: ^
[21:49] <yofel> good ;)
[21:49] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: what happened to the classic everyones-drunk-before-release-day question
[21:50] <apachelogger> sgclark: Imagine, if you will... upstream releases new versions of Phonon, Phonon-GStreamer and Phonon-VLC two weeks before our release. Upstream urges us to include it in the release regardless as a considerable amount of high impact bugs were fixed. Unfortunately an equal amount of features was also added. All other Kubuntu developers are on vacation^Wmeeting in Brussels and unreachable because Belgium has terrible connectivity. You are the
[21:50] <apachelogger>  only one who could either push for the new Phonons to be uploaded to the archive or postpone to updates/backports. What do you do? Why do you do it? How do you defend your decision to apachelogger who is known to respond rather badly to any reasoning that conflicts with his opinion?
[21:50] <shadeslayer> hah
[21:50] <shadeslayer> there we go
[21:50] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: there it is u drunk lazy bum :P
[21:50] <yofel> we were all waiting for it :P
[21:51] <sgclark> apachelogger: I would file an Ffe and they would have to go through normals channels to be approved. If they do great, if not I would tell upstream sorry I tried
[21:51] <Riddell> lovely, let's vote!
[21:51] <apachelogger> sgclark: how would you asses whether it is even good enough for ffe?
[21:51] <Riddell> I'm +1 for being an awesome dev who knows her limits but wants to expand them
[21:52] <sgclark> apachelogger: go through the upstream changelogs and look for severe bug fixes to start. (How I would try to convince the ubuntu-release)
[21:53] <apachelogger> sgclark: how do you know the new releases are not eating kittens?
[21:53]  * ogra_ notes that Riddell and himself never had to go though such a hard questionnaire to reach core-dev ... 
[21:53] <sgclark> apachelogger: I test them for kitten friendlyness
[21:54] <Riddell> ogra_: yeah but I was told to only upload packages starting with a k, some day I should apply for full core-dev :)
[21:54] <apachelogger> sgclark: maybe someone else would help you with that ;)
[21:54] <apachelogger> I am satisfied though.
[21:54] <ogra_> (and that sgclark seriously deverves upload rights based on the sheer amount of -changes ML spam she produces in my mailbox ;)
[21:54] <Riddell> yofel, shadeslayer, apachelogger, debfx etc vote!
[21:54] <ogra_> *deserves
[21:55] <Riddell> volem votar!
[21:55] <apachelogger> (FWIW, answering with apachelogger is upstream and if he has a problem he can take it up with himself would have been the answer whith which sgclark could have won the internet)
[21:55] <Riddell> they may be sending in the tanks but the Madrid government will not stop us voting!
[21:55] <shadeslayer> ogra_: is core-dev still open for applications?
[21:55] <yofel> +1 for continuous and competent contributions, and not being scared to ask questions if she doesn't know something
[21:56] <Riddell> 05:05 <ScottK> Turns out I'll miss the meeting tomorrow.  I'm +1 on sgclark.
[21:56] <ogra_> shadeslayer, no idea, i gave up my last DMB job 2 years ago ...
[21:56] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes, when are you applying?
[21:56] <shadeslayer> +1 for being overall awesome ( happy that ABI knowledge is over all complete :D)
[21:56] <shadeslayer> Riddell: thinking about it
[21:56] <debfx> +1 from me as well
[21:57] <Riddell> shadeslayer: then sgclark can quiz you on your understanding of update_excuses
[21:57] <yofel> indeed, britney is lovely
[21:57] <shadeslayer> I'm more scared of apachelogger
[21:57] <yofel> talk about ben while you're at it :P
[21:58] <shadeslayer> he's quite the meanie
[21:58]  * sgclark awaits apacheloggers vote
[21:58] <apachelogger> scared of me what?
[21:58] <yofel> apachelogger: ? ^^
[21:58] <yofel> you throwing kittens at people?
[21:58] <apachelogger> +1 or something
[21:58] <yofel> \o/
[21:58] <Riddell> awooga!
[21:58] <sgclark> yay
[21:58] <apachelogger> (busy in other channels), congrats and stuff
[21:58] <yofel> I think that'll all of the presend people
[21:58] <shadeslayer> yay
[21:58] <yofel> *present
[21:58]  * Riddell hugs sgclark and welcomes her into kubuntu-dev
[21:59] <sgclark> yay, thanks everyone. That was a scary start
[21:59] <Riddell> sgclark: now we have lots of kde applications to package, thanks for going through the grilling
[21:59] <shadeslayer> heh, yeah I'm pretty sure you'll have to deal with proposed-migration soon enough now :P
[21:59] <shadeslayer> but hey, you'll know where to look ;)
[21:59] <sgclark> shadeslayer: yes, get ready for questions lol
[22:00] <Riddell> sgclark: and remember to look for the next way for personal development. motu? core-dev? release-team? backports team? sru team? all need help
[22:01] <Riddell> but of course you're also doing SoK and other stuff so make sure you don't get burnt out
[22:01] <sgclark> Riddell: ok, probably should finish SoK first :)
[22:01] <valorie> weeeee, welcome to your new status, sgclark
[22:01] <sgclark> thanks!