[00:31] <apachelogger> stgraber: I think lxc-info output broke because stdout got messed up or something due to excessively too high load, also code wise it didn't make sense that for example the Name: line would be repeated so for now I'll let it pass as a load problem and keep an eye out
[01:30] <kees> tedg: if I have a gtk application, and it doesn't show menus due to whatever has been done to shove menus into the global menu bar... and I'm not running compiz.. how do I get my menus back?
[01:35] <mdeslaur> kees: what app is it?
[01:37] <mdeslaur> kees: chances are they migrated to gtk appmenus
[01:38] <mdeslaur> kees: oh, if you're not running the menu indicator, you can launch the app with UBUNTU_MENUPROXY=0
[01:41] <Bluefoxicy> that reminds me, I have to find the tweak that puts menus back somewhere sane
[01:43] <Bluefoxicy> I'd like to think one day, in 5 or 10 years, people will awaken from whatever confusion of ideas leads them to put menus at the top of the desktop space
[01:44] <Bluefoxicy> but I'm well aware that certain inobvious facts are hopeless to reason a normal person into
[01:44] <Bluefoxicy> It's not UI designers that put menus at the top of the screen; it's programmers who think it's a good idea
[01:44] <Bluefoxicy> they have the mistaken belief that the screen has an origin point, that the top left corner is (0,0), and that this has some meaning
[01:44] <mdeslaur> Bluefoxicy: menus are going away, they're all being put in hamburger icons now
[01:45] <Bluefoxicy> in truth, the computer screen is an artificial idea.  It's a position in space; the relative position of a window on that screen is also a position in space.  If you move the screen, you can move the window to put it back into the same position in space it was previously occupying
[01:45] <mdeslaur> Bluefoxicy: so you're saying Apple doesn't have UI designers? :P
[01:45] <Bluefoxicy> ... and then the menus have moved.
[01:45] <Bluefoxicy> mdeslaur: apple has a paradigm.
[01:46] <Bluefoxicy> It's well-known Apple does things the way Apple does them because either A) that's how Apple does it; or B) it's different and shiny and distinctly Apple (this is how Apple gets new things done the way Apple does them)
[01:47] <Bluefoxicy> anyway the simple version is this:  a window is a concrete, independent object; the desktop around it isn't.  Moving the window moves it arbitrarily relative to the desktop, meaning it moves the relative position of the window and the menu.
[01:48] <Bluefoxicy> When working within an application--when working on a sketch pad in real life, or any other physical object--the workspace shrinks down to that object.  In real life, you can reach to the same spatial position and grab something, so multiple things in your workspace are easily handled.
[01:48] <Bluefoxicy> On a computer, you manipulate a pointer device.
[01:49] <Bluefoxicy> Rather than reach to the absolute position on-screen, you have to judge the relative positions of objects in the full workspace (the whole screen) before moving from one to another.
[01:49] <Bluefoxicy> Putting the menus away from the application window means suddenly having to assess where the menu is in relation to the window when you want to use the menu
[01:50] <Bluefoxicy> That's the cold truth.  There are other esoteric arguments, like working with multiple windows with their own menus (seriously, two clicks instead of one); but the basis of it is that an application window is a whole thing, and putting the window at the top of the screen separates it into two things.
[01:50] <RAOF> Unless the menu is in an absolute location, in which case it's always “move the pointer top left”?
[01:50] <Bluefoxicy> RAOF: how far is the top left?
[01:50] <RAOF> Doesn't matter
[01:50] <RAOF> There's an edge.
[01:51] <mdeslaur> it's always in the same place :)
[01:51]  * RAOF → lunch, anyway :)
[01:51] <sarnold> besides vim doesn't have menus anyhow
[01:51] <Bluefoxicy> For me to traverse the entire screen can become physically challenging.  Particularly, I can't reach the bottom right; top-right corner is actually the easiest position for a right-handed person
[01:51] <Bluefoxicy> of course, I'm using a single 32 inch display
[01:51] <Bluefoxicy> a WIDE SCREEN 32 inch display
[01:51] <mdeslaur> Bluefoxicy: so you must be happy that you can move the menus back to windows in Ubuntu 14.04
[01:52] <Bluefoxicy> mdeslaur:  I'm having an odd time where some of my applications have menus in windows, and others have no menus and I've recently discovered how to access the menu
[01:53] <Bluefoxicy> LibreOffice has a menu bar, but also a top menu that brings up Preferences, About, Help, and Quit
[01:53] <mdeslaur> wow, that's weird
[01:53] <Bluefoxicy> try grokking that.  I have two menus, one in-window and one out, in LibreOffice
[01:54] <Bluefoxicy> and menu->preferences is the same thing as tools->options
[01:54] <mdeslaur> Bluefoxicy: what desktop environment are you seeing that?
[01:54] <Bluefoxicy> mdeslaur:  14.10 Gnome shell here
[01:54] <mdeslaur> ah, yeah, gnome split the menus in half
[01:54] <Bluefoxicy> Well
[01:54] <Bluefoxicy> that's stupid.
[01:54] <Bluefoxicy> I'll add that as #3 on my list
[01:54] <mdeslaur> yes, I definitely agree
[01:54] <mdeslaur> I don't like that at all
[01:55] <Bluefoxicy> #1 is the alt-tab behavior (applications instead of windows) in gnome-shell, which is so useless I no longer use alt-tab at all, ever.
[01:55] <sarnold> what was #1 and #2? :)
[01:55] <mdeslaur> wow, I didn't realize people still used alt-tab
[01:55] <Bluefoxicy> The most productive feature of the desktop environment--Gnome's old alt-tab behavior, where it grouped (Current desktop | other desktops) and would bypass the separator if you tabbed QUICKLY--has been turned into a pile of garbage
[01:55] <mdeslaur> isn't that a windows thing?
[01:55] <Bluefoxicy> Old Gnome did alt-tab well
[01:56] <Bluefoxicy> it was great if you were swapping between precisely two windows on the same desktop (on different desktops, just use ctrl+arrows to swap desktops back and forth)
[01:56] <Bluefoxicy> Often I'd be typing a response to an e-mail, and be able to tab between Thunderbird and the Compose window
[01:57] <Bluefoxicy> thus I could scroll a long e-mail in the main mail window, rather than scroll around in my quoted reply; or look at a different e-mail in a thread for reference
[01:57] <Bluefoxicy> with new Gnome, you hit alt-tab and it goes, "Well, your last window was Thunderbird.  So is your current one.  You must want CHROMIUM ON ANOTHER DESKTOP!" and takes you away
[01:58] <Bluefoxicy> no, my last window was another Thunderbird window, and that's what I want to tab back to.
[01:58] <Bluefoxicy> anyway
[01:58] <Bluefoxicy> #2 is that they altered the scroll wheel behavior in Activities
[01:58] <Bluefoxicy> Activities is the reason I use gnome-shell.
[01:58] <Bluefoxicy> it shows you an exposé view of a single desktop, and you can move up and down through desktops, created dynamically.
[01:59] <Bluefoxicy> You can drag windows to other desktops, or between desktops (to create a new one); and you can just type and it'll give you the application you want to launch.  So awesome
[02:00] <mdeslaur> in Unity, you can use Alt-# to switch between windows of the same app
[02:00] <Bluefoxicy> Previously, scroll wheel did mnay things.  Notably, moving the pointer over the virtual desktops and scrolling would move you up and down; while pointing at a window and scrolling would zoom in and out on it without having to leave Activities view, raise the window, and change pointer focus.  Leaving activities view sent you back to the window last used on the current desktop
[02:00] <Bluefoxicy> now, scroll wheel ALWAYS switches desktops
[02:00] <Bluefoxicy> I can't get a closer look at a small window in a cluttered desktop by zooming
[02:00] <Bluefoxicy> so, I will make split menus in Gnome-shell my gripe #3
[02:00] <mdeslaur> sounds like gnome-shell isn't for you
[02:00] <sarnold> control+scrollwheel? alt+scrollwheel? numlock+scrollwheel?
[02:01] <Bluefoxicy> gnome-shell is the best desktop I've used in history.
[02:01] <Bluefoxicy> I've used KDE, enlightenment, and even recent versions of xfce4 and unity
[02:01] <Bluefoxicy> unity is MUCH lighter than gnome-shell
[02:01] <Bluefoxicy> bring 2GB of RAM if you want to run gnome-shell.  Bring under a gig if you want Unity.  But I can accept that.
[02:02] <Bluefoxicy> That doesn't mean it isn't broken in a few places
[02:02] <Bluefoxicy> It's like a golf club
[02:02] <sarnold> wow, coming from i3-wm land, unity feels huge and bloated :)
[02:02] <Bluefoxicy> almost a straight stick, except for that bit at the end
[02:02] <Bluefoxicy> sarnold:  I used to use icewm exclusively for a few months too :)
[02:03] <mdeslaur> activities sounds a lot like what Super+S does in unity
[02:03] <Bluefoxicy> does it?
[02:03] <sarnold> .. icewm was the first win95-alike window manager, right?
[02:03] <Bluefoxicy> I thought Unity just brought up the 4 desktop quadrants
[02:03] <Bluefoxicy> and there are only 4 desktops; you can't drop windows between them to create new desktops, and it doesn't auto-destroy empty desktops.
[02:03] <mdeslaur> oh, I missed the part where you can launch apps
[02:03] <mdeslaur> right, and the dynamic number of tem
[02:04] <mdeslaur> them
[02:04] <Bluefoxicy> the Windows key goes straight into Activities on Gnome.  I tend to tap teh top left corner; really, hitting the Super key if you want to launch an app is better, since navigating the applications menus is ... a feature that should be left in for the curious alone.
[02:05] <mdeslaur> ok, so not similar at all
[02:05] <Bluefoxicy> never bother navigating the applications menu
[02:05] <Bluefoxicy> it's a pointless exercise
[02:05] <dupingping> Hi I hope become a ubuntu devel member.
[02:05] <dupingping> What do I do to do it?
[02:06] <Bluefoxicy> super -> s o f -> "Software Updater" "Ubuntu Software Center" "Additional drivers" -> click or use arrow keys to select the application to launch
[02:06] <Bluefoxicy> unity has a search bar too though.
[02:06] <Bluefoxicy> last I checked, it doesn't pick up immediately if you start typing; you have to explicitly tell it you want to search.
[02:07] <Bluefoxicy> anyway
[02:08] <Bluefoxicy> haha.  I remember how awesome Gnome's deskbar was supposed to be
[02:08] <Bluefoxicy> and that it never actually worked (it crashed a lot)
[02:08] <Bluefoxicy> by the time it was shaped up, nobody cared anymore
[06:13] <kees> mdeslaur: makerware! :)
[06:13] <kees> mdeslaur: UBUNTU_MENUPROXY=0 did not work.
[06:18] <kees> oh, whoops, it's Qt not GTK
[06:19] <kees> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/appmenu-qt/+bug/1045640 <- maybe?
[06:43] <pitti> Good morning
[09:05] <LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, what happens if I cannot reproduce the insighttoolkit amd64 failure in a clean pbuilder-dist vivid environment?
[09:05] <LocutusOfBorg1> I build it successfully with sid and vivid both amd64
[09:05] <LocutusOfBorg1> I can mail you both build logs
[09:26] <pitti> Riddell: hmm @ https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-workspace/+publishinghistory
[09:26] <Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: Erm, does it work in a PPA?
[09:26] <pitti> Riddell: so kde-workspace got removed in vivid, then apparently reintroduced with a security update, which failed to upload everywhere (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/vivid/+source/kde-workspace/4:4.11.12-0ubuntu2)
[09:27] <pitti> Riddell: and stuff like kdevelop needs kdebase-workspace (https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/vivid-adt-kdevelop/12 just failed)
[09:27] <Laney> bdmurray: looks like I forgot to push upload maybe
[09:28] <Laney> bdmurray: there
[09:28] <pitti> Riddell: I take it kdevelop and friends will be updated to thew new plasma-workspace, so that's temporary, but there was apparently some confusion about reintroducing kde-workspace?
[09:32] <Riddell> pitti: I uploaded the kde-workspace security, realised that wouldn't work since we had plasma-workspace to replace it and deleted kde-workspace
[09:32] <Riddell> pitti: there will be stuff like kdevelop that I need to fix up now yes
[09:32] <pitti> Riddell: ah, so we'll need to delete it again, I figure?
[09:32] <Riddell> pitti: did it reappear?
[09:33] <pitti> Riddell: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/vivid/+source/kde-workspace/4:4.11.12-0ubuntu2 is in vivid-proposed (the source)
[09:33] <pitti> the binaries failed to upload
[09:38] <Riddell> pitti: oh I guess I need to delete it from -proposed as well, no problemo
[09:38] <pitti> doko_: btw, gcc-4.9 has been a "valid candiate" since yesterday, but http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output.txt complains about some uninstallability (i386: libstarpu-dev)
[09:39] <pitti> doko_: that one depends: gcc-4.9 (<< 4.9.1A) (WTF??)
[09:40] <pitti> doko_: looks like it's autogen'ed, I'll check if a rebuild fixes it
[09:48] <pitti> doko_: yep, helps; uploaded
[10:28] <cjwatson> flexiondotorg: I'm generally stepping back from this stuff over the next couple of months (see my blog), so it would be advisable to find somebody else release-team-ish to help you out.  If you have packages in trusty-updates then riding along with the next point release ought not to be horribly difficult, I'd have thought, maybe
[10:33] <lifeless> cjwatson: good luck with the move, hope it achieves your goals!
[10:41] <cjwatson> lifeless: thanks :)
[12:02] <Tribaal> hi all. Who should I talk to to resync the bzr branches for a particular package? It seems the branches are out of date compared to what is uploaded.
[12:09] <geser> Tribaal: have you checked if it's listed on http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/ with a reason why it failed?
[12:09] <Tribaal> geser: I hadn't, and it seems to be listed there indeed
[12:11] <Tribaal> geser: I'm not sure I understand what the failure means, however
[12:13] <geser> in most cases it either a bug or the package importer found the branch in a state which it can't handle on it's own
[12:13] <cjwatson> The whole package-import system is pretty much unmaintained at this point; any substantial bugs probably won't be fixed.  Should be much easier to do with git.
[12:14] <Tribaal> so, it's this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/udd/+bug/494481
[12:15] <Tribaal> I'd like to fix the situation for the package I'm interested in (landscape-client)
[12:16] <Tribaal> geser: so, what is the "current best" way to go?
[12:17] <cjwatson> Surely for landscape-client you should *not* be using UDD anyway, but rather proposing merges to lp:landscape-client.
[12:17] <cjwatson> The parallel import is counterproductive there.
[12:23] <Tribaal> cjwatson: so, what I'm currently trying to do is: build and release a new landscape-client pacakge to Ubuntu (starting with devel). Last time this involved attaching debdiffs to bugs, and was quite painful for everyone involved. So I suspect there is a better way to do it, and I'm trying to find what that is.
[12:23] <Tribaal> I thought it would be udd, but apparently not :)
[12:24] <cjwatson> UDD is not likely to make anything less painful at this point.
[12:24] <Tribaal> cjwatson: hehe noted :)
[12:24] <cjwatson> I don't quite get why you wouldn't just branch lp:landscape-client as needed.
[12:26] <Tribaal> cjwatson: so, maybe I misunderstand how the process works then. Let's say we'r ready to release now, I branch, push a "landscape-client-14.10" or whatever to lp. What happens then?
[12:27] <Tribaal> (how do we go from  lp branch to an available deb package)
[12:27] <ogra_> you make your branch a merge proposal against lp:landscape-client
[12:27] <ogra_> upstream merges it and releases a package from it
[12:27] <Tribaal> we do this on a daily basis, and merge on a daily basis
[12:27] <Tribaal> I am upstream :)
[12:27] <mdeslaur> kees: perhaps just uninstall appmenu-qt and appmenu-qt5?
[12:28] <Tribaal> I'm trying to figure out "..and releases a package from it" :)
[12:28] <cjwatson> you build and upload it from the relevant branch
[12:28] <cjwatson> "debuild -S" or "bzr bd -S" or whatever
[12:29] <ogra_> yoou call bzr bd in the branch
[12:29] <Tribaal> ok
[12:29] <Tribaal> and the SRU process remains debdiffs?
[12:29] <cjwatson> the SRU process does not require attaching patches of any kind ...
[12:29] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[12:30] <cjwatson> however if it is useful to point to the specific broken-down commits (and it may well be) you can just link to the commits on LP
[12:30] <Tribaal> well, so, we need a branch per release we target, at least
[12:30] <cjwatson> Sure
[12:31] <Tribaal> ok, I think I'm starting to see things a bit more clearly
[12:31] <Tribaal> thanks
[12:31] <cjwatson> np
[12:31] <Tribaal> I will probably shoot more questions - but at least that's a good start
[12:32] <Tribaal> :)
[13:52] <LocutusOfBorg1> I need a builder with at least 60GB of space, because insighttoolkit needs 55 and doesn't finish the build :(
[13:52] <LocutusOfBorg1> I tried to package the new release on costamagnagianfranco/locutusofborg-ppa
[13:52] <LocutusOfBorg1> to help finish the itk transition
[13:52] <LocutusOfBorg1> s/itk/gdcm
[14:10] <mdeslaur> cjwatson: my google-foo is failing me...what mounts /boot/efi at boot?
[14:14] <cjwatson> mdeslaur: should be in /etc/fstab
[14:14] <cjwatson> put there by partman-efi
[14:17] <mdeslaur> cjwatson: hrm, ok, thanks
[15:41] <bdmurray> Laney: did you want 2.4.6 in trusty or 2.4.7?
[15:42] <Laney> bdmurray: 7, did I miss that one too?
[15:42] <Laney> I probably dputted them at the same time and missed some error
[15:42] <bdmurray> Laney: its still 2.4.6 in the trusty queue
[15:43] <Laney> okay I just uploaded .7