[00:45] <wxl> hey folks. the info on the wiki pages seems outdated. is there still a supported arm port?
[00:46] <wxl> i'm thinking if ubuntu's still supporting arm, it might be nice to get lubuntu arm images. i was thinking about buying a board and doing testing.
[00:46] <wxl> specifically, i'm leaning towards a beaglebone black or a riotboard.
[00:47] <wxl> of the two, i'm a little more excited about the riotboard, especially given the freescale chip. i have a buddy that works for them and i'd like to support them!
[00:49] <k1l> what is outdated?
[00:49] <k1l> there should be the same support like it was for 13.10/14.04
[00:50] <wxl> well the only thing that was mentioned on the Ubuntu/Arm page is 12.04
[00:51] <wxl> also there's no mention of the i.MX 6
[00:51] <k1l> beagleboard is supported
[00:52] <wxl> the original from what i can tell
[00:52] <wxl> not the black which uses a differnent chip
[00:52] <k1l> but its not like you put a cd into a arm device and its all fine. most times you need some work
[00:52] <wxl> please elaborate
[00:53] <k1l> the driver situation is worse on arm. its not like we have generic or open drivers as fallback. in most cases you need to get the drivers and that can be a showstopper
[00:54] <wxl> you're referring to the drivers for non-processor components?
[00:55] <wxl> meh maybe i should just give a shot
[01:00] <k1l> wxl: http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardUbuntu
[01:02] <wxl> well that's promising
[01:02] <wxl> i guess tl;dr i need to just go hunting :)
[01:02] <wxl> which is fine
[01:03] <k1l> dont expect the situation as with a modern laptop, where you just put in a ubuntu.iso and you are fine to go.
[01:05] <infinity> wxl: Building full lubuntu images isn't worth the effort, as we'd need to build a different one for each target platform just to be able to boot them.
[01:05] <infinity> wxl: Telling people to use the d-i images and then install lubuntu-desktop as their last step would work much better, and is already supported today.
[01:05] <wxl> infinity: oh!
[01:06] <wxl> infinity: by d-i you mean.... netboot?
[01:06] <infinity> wxl: Right.
[01:06] <wxl> right.
[01:07] <infinity> wxl: No guarantees that the generic kernel has all the right options turned on (or builds the DTB) for your platform, but we don't have every board in the world, so the only way we can support everyone is for you to fiddle a bit and let us know what works, and we can fix up our configs to work there.
[01:07] <wxl> infinity: so is there any likelihood that there WILL be full *ubuntu images for arm?
[01:07] <infinity> wxl: No, because a "full" image can't be bootable on more than one system, and building 40 of them would be ridiculous.
[01:07] <infinity> wxl: Welcome to the world of platform differentiation.
[01:08] <wxl> infinity: this is due to all the different instruction sets and such?
[01:08] <infinity> wxl: This is why, say, Cyanogen builds images for dozens of targets.  But that's their business, and their userbase, it's not ours, so not worth our time to even try.
[01:08] <infinity> wxl: No, the instruction sets are the same, or the general userspace wouldn't work.
[01:09] <infinity> wxl: It's the base platforms being different, needing different early bootloader setups, etc, etc.
[01:09] <wxl> ic
[01:09] <infinity> wxl: There's no generic BIOS-like standard on ARM.
[01:09] <wxl> OH
[01:09] <wxl> that explains a lot then
[01:10] <k1l> wxl: just think about we needed own ubuntu iso for every intel or amd cpu  mixed with the intel, amd, nvidia video card setup.
[01:10] <wxl> yeah that's stupid
[01:10] <wxl> so the arm world has a lot more work ahead of them if they intend to really take over the processor world
[01:11] <infinity> wxl: No, they've taken over just fine.
[01:11] <wxl> infinity: in terms of numbers.
[01:11] <infinity> wxl: If they want to take over the generic desktop world, sure, but they don't care about that market. :P
[01:11] <k1l> arm is very different in that way, sadly. thats what i meant with dont expect the typical PC experience with just booting a standard iso
[01:11] <infinity> wxl: In terms of numbers, they took over the world years ago.
[01:11] <wxl> well this is very educational
[01:11] <wxl> thank you btoh for taking the time to explain this all :)
[01:11] <infinity> wxl: I know people with several ARM devices, and not a single x86 device.  It's a brave new world.
[01:12] <wxl> well i think i have more arm devices in the house than not :)
[01:13] <infinity> Exactly.
[01:13] <infinity> So, they won when you weren't counting.
[01:13] <k1l> i think we will get some more generic drivers some day. but that takes some time.
[01:13] <infinity> Like I said, they don't care about the generic desktop/laptop market yet (they might some day).
[01:13] <wxl> they seem to be edging closer and closer
[01:14] <infinity> They do care about the server market, but server systems have burned in firmware and device-trees, and can all boot fine with a generic installer.
[01:14] <infinity> Dev boards don't have such luxuries. :P
[01:14] <infinity> And zero standardization.
[01:14] <infinity> Pretty much intentionally, because most dev boards are NOT meant for desktop/server dev, they're meant to emulate phones.
[01:14] <wxl> right
[01:14] <infinity> And phones are as differentiated as people.
[01:14] <wxl> you've hard of the novena i'm assuming?
[01:15] <infinity> Was that the one from bunnie?
[01:15] <wxl> https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop
[01:15] <infinity> Yeah, that's the bunnie one.
[01:16] <infinity> It's a fun experiment, but crazy overpriced and bulky.
[01:16] <wxl> yeah
[01:16] <wxl> oh there i see bunnie
[01:16] <infinity> My laptop usecases pretty much demand that I have to wait for a Lenovo or a Dell to make a decent ARM laptop.
[01:17] <wxl> i guess the real reason for ubuntu-arm to exist is really to support touch then, no?
[01:17] <infinity> wxl: And ARM hyperscale servers.
[01:17] <wxl> oh really?
[01:17] <infinity> wxl: But our pure desktop use case was always sort of proof-of-concept.  I mean, no normal non-hacker person was going to buy a Pandaboard and use that as their desktop computer.
[01:17] <wxl> the server subpage was a bit confusing
[01:18] <infinity> wxl: The server website copy is crap, it's being rewritten, AFAIK.
[01:18] <wxl> it seemed to suggest there were no current machines for them
[01:18] <infinity> Yeah, that's a lie. :P
[01:18] <wxl> hahahahah
[01:18] <infinity> Every "server" system in the ARM server ecosystem (and there are a few) runs Ubuntu.
[01:18] <wxl> very cool
[01:18] <infinity> EIther ships with it, or can be installed post-ship, and is supported.
[01:19] <infinity> Personally, I'm waiting for Apple to take the plunge and ship an ARM build of MacOS X running on an ARMv8 laptop.
[01:19] <infinity> Not because I like Apple, or their hardware, or their OS.
[01:19] <wxl> eheheheh
[01:19] <infinity> But because hipsters think they're trendsetters.
[01:19] <wxl> sounds like something they would do
[01:19] <infinity> And it'll force the hand of the Lenovos of the world to make an ARM PC.
[01:19] <infinity> Just to show they can.
[01:19] <wxl> aaaaaaaaaand then threaten intel that they can get the arms cheaper
[01:19] <infinity> And we're more ready for that than Microsoft is.
[01:19] <wxl> just so they can forget the whole arm thing once they strongarm their way to a cheaper price
[01:20] <infinity> wxl: Historically, Apple hasn't switched tech to hold people hostage, they switch tech out of spite.
[01:20] <wxl> hahahahah
[01:20] <wxl> touché
[01:20] <infinity> wxl: Like, they didn't give Freescale a "scale up clock speed or we switch" ultimatum, Jobs just had a 12yo-style temper tantrum and said "fuck powerpc".
[01:21] <wxl> yeah
[01:22] <infinity> Cook seems slightly less, uhm, "passionate" than Jobs, though, so I doubt that sort of thing will happen in the future.
[01:22] <wxl> yeah but apple's not necessarily all peaches and cream
[01:23] <infinity> They haven't been either peaches or cream since the Apple ][.
[01:23] <infinity> That was their last truly open platform.
[01:23] <infinity> And it all went downhill from there.
[01:23] <infinity> But meh.
[01:23] <infinity> They drive the industry a fair bit, I can't complain about that.
[01:23] <wxl> and hey
[01:23] <wxl> they ARE unix
[01:23] <infinity> I just wish Americans weren't so entranced by the idea that "more expensive" means "better".
[01:24] <infinity> That's not Apple's fault, they just take great advantage ofit.
[01:24] <wxl> not like most of their clients even know what the "OS" stands for XD
[01:24] <wxl> i do give them kudos for doing free updates and offering betas within tim's reign
[01:24] <infinity> MacOSX may be UNIX under the hood, but I find it the most awful unix/unix-like system to actually develop with.
[01:24] <wxl> oh indeed
[01:24] <infinity> I honestly don't get people who buy Mac laptop to develop for Linux servers.
[01:25] <infinity> You basically learn it all twice anywat. :/
[01:25] <wxl> and honestly they've messed up a lot of the good parts
[01:25] <wxl> so i went to oscon and was amazed at how many people had macs
[01:25] <wxl> but i guess it wasn't linuxcon. it was oscon. different thing.
[01:26] <infinity> They're amazingly common anywhere in *any* elite field in the US.
[01:26] <infinity> Less common as you travel abroad.
[01:26] <infinity> But Apple = Status symbol in the US.
[01:26] <wxl> yeah it's pretty strange that
[01:26] <infinity> So, if you're a doctor, lawyer, marketing exec and, yes, high profile software developer, you buy a Mac and an iPhone.
[01:27] <infinity> They're the BMW (or pick your favourite high end car) of the computing world.
[01:27] <infinity> Honestly, if the keyboards weren't shit, I'd probably own a MacBook Air.  Not for the status, but because they're generally decent.
[01:27] <infinity> But keyboards are everything for me.
[01:27] <wxl> i LOVE the magic mouse
[01:28] <infinity> Which means Lenovo will own my soul until they completely break theirs.
[01:28] <wxl> which laptop do you have that the keyboard is so fantastic? i've yet to find one i really like.
[01:28] <infinity> Oh, and the trackpoint.  Becoming so rare these days, but so much more efficient than touchpads.
[01:28] <wxl> ew no thank you
[01:28] <wxl> you mean the input nipple?
[01:28] <infinity> wxl: Pretty much any ThinkPad in the last two decades?
[01:28] <wxl> yeah i've had a lot of thinkpads
[01:28] <wxl> they're fine
[01:29] <infinity> Yes, the "nipple".
[01:29] <wxl> but i don't LOVE the keyboards
[01:29] <infinity> Well, love is a bit strong, but it's the natural opposite to HATING the Apple/Samsung flat keyboards that give you RSI in about two minutes.
[01:29] <wxl> but my work computer has a tactile keyboard so i'm a little spoiled
[01:29] <wxl> heheheh
[01:30] <wxl> someday when i'm rich i'll get a happy hacking keyboard
[01:30] <infinity> wxl: My desktop keyboard is a rather expensive mechanical beast that I love dearly, but ThinkPad keyboards are the only thing I can stomach on laptops.
[01:30] <wxl> yeah mechanical. that was the word i was looking for!
[19:32] <genii> I'm trying to understand the differences between a normal Linux kernel and the Android kernel. So far it seems mainly the shared memory model (ashmem/pmem) and wakelocks. Is this why when Linux is in a chroot and Android /dev is bind-mounted the chroot can't use any of the devices there?
[19:36]  * genii goes back to reading http://elinux.org/Android_Kernel_Features and http://www.lindusembedded.com/blog/2010/12/07/android-linux-kernel-additions/
[22:09] <Riku-san> hello
[22:10] <Riku-san> I have a problem with Ubuntu 13.04 on Nexus 7, can someone help me, or will I be met with "that isn't supported" like on #ubuntu ?
[22:12] <Riku-san> according to the error report it's a problem with Xorg, sometimes touch stops working correctly, it registers taps as hovering over something instead of clicking
[22:12] <Riku-san> this renders the system next to unusable and I have to use a bluetooth keyboard to open a terminal and reboot