[00:08] <diddledan> 2nd go-no-go is a go
[00:09] <daftykins> say what?
[00:09] <diddledan> that's about all we're gonna get until 2:35am UTC
[00:09] <diddledan> daftykins, the ESA probe onto a comet
[00:10] <diddledan> they're at the step where they send the command to burn a sharp turn towards the comet from a wide orbital path
[00:10] <penguin42> diddledan: SO we're not going to really know anything tomorrow
[00:10] <daftykins> ooh-err
[00:11] <diddledan> penguin42, yeah, the livestream isn't due to finish until 20:00 UTC tomorrow - I think the actual capture will be somewhere tomorrow eve?
[00:11] <diddledan> I should have taken notes
[00:16] <shauno> it's one hell of an accomplishment so far, but all I can really come up with is "oooh, purdy"  (eg http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78214000/jpg/_78214682_78214681.jpg )
[00:17] <daftykins> oh my word
[00:17] <daftykins> that looks like something from sci-fi
[00:18] <diddledan> <3
[00:18] <diddledan> that's an awesome photo
[00:18] <penguin42> yeh that's great
[00:19] <daftykins> such a thin arm to that solar panel, assuming that's what it is
[00:36] <penguin42> well, it has approximately no weight
[01:01] <daftykins> yeah :D
[01:01] <daftykins> or no mass ;)
[01:01] <penguin42> oh I'm sure it has plenty of mass; actually I guess the bigger problem is inertia?
[01:03] <ali1234> this one again
[02:50] <diddledan> cosplay cylon anyone? http://www.geeknative.com/49333/incredible-cylon-centurion-cosplay-may-never-happen
[02:52] <penguin42> heck
[04:06] <map> hi all...GAH my laptop still not shipped
[07:06] <knightwise> morning
[07:12] <zmoylan-pi> happy harpoon a comet day \o/
[07:54] <daftykins> hmm these tesco tablets really are cheap
[07:54] <daftykins> the hudl 2
[07:55] <zmoylan-pi> i picked up a bt keyboard yesterday for €15
[07:56] <zmoylan-pi> i think someone on this channel got a hudl using a boatload of clubpoints cheaper than that
[07:56] <daftykins> :D
[07:56] <daftykins> i'm not in England though so don't even have a Tesco
[07:56] <daftykins> don't think they'd ship to here even
[07:56] <zmoylan-pi> haven
[07:57] <zmoylan-pi> haven't seen one in ireland, and i have looked
[07:57] <zmoylan-pi> they have cheap tablets for sale but nothing i like the look of.  got my current asus in argos for €130 with nice case
[08:41] <popey> yeah, directhex got his for less than 2 quid, my hudl2 was 40 quid
[08:42] <daftykins> little bit dubious about intel atom usage
[08:42] <daftykins> plus it doesn't seem to have much of an edge over say, the older Nexus 7
[08:43] <daftykins> ah well, was just the temptation to play with something new then try and palm off to mother-dearest ;)
[08:44] <DJones> There's not much difference between the hudl2 & N7 2013 models in use as far as I can see, wife's got one to replace a broken N7v2, it does the job as well as her old N7
[08:45] <DJones> If anything it has some advantages (micro sd slot etc)
[08:45] <daftykins> ah yes
[08:45] <daftykins> strangely the tesco website accepts a Guernsey postcode
[08:45] <DJones> Speed wise its the same, battery life appears pretty similar, resolution is slightly worse due to the bigger screen, but not noticable
[08:45] <popey> hdmi too
[08:46] <DJones> popey: Yep
[08:46] <popey> it also feels more robust to me than the nexus range
[08:46] <popey> i like the larger screen, especially for movies/tv
[08:46] <popey> I spent the entire flight to USA watching films / TV. Was glorious
[08:46] <DJones> It is thicker and heavier, but not excessively so
[08:46] <popey> battery life was ~6-7 hours while constantly watching video
[08:46] <popey> yes.
[08:46] <popey> fits in my back pocket ☻
[08:47] <DJones> Big pockets
[08:47] <daftykins> XD
[08:47] <popey> well, sticks out vertically
[08:47] <zmoylan-pi> or big backside... :-)
[08:47] <popey> but i can put it in and walk about, i did so at the sprint, and used it for checking my calendar
[08:47] <DJones> I'd recommend them
[08:47] <popey> all of the above
[08:48] <zmoylan-pi> bought a cheap winter coat from lidl and found it has an internal pocket that will hold the 7" tablet nicely
[08:48] <DJones> zmoylan-pi: We got a BT keyboard for £10 in a local discount shop
[08:49] <popey> nice!
[08:49] <popey> desktop size or pocket size bt kb?
[08:49] <DJones> About the same size as an N7
[08:50] <zmoylan-pi> the bt keyboard i got is same size give or take a few mm as 7" tablet
[08:51] <zmoylan-pi> squishy soft rubber buttons but should be useable with a little practice
[08:52] <popey> today (well yesterday) I learned of "livestreamer"
[08:52] <popey> livestreamer http://new.livestream.com/ESA/cometlanding best
[08:52] <popey> watching the comet thing
[08:55] <willcooke> popey, did I miss anything on the comet landing?
[08:56] <zmoylan-pi> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30012854 'thruster system used to push the robot into the surface of the comet when it touches down could not be primed'
[08:56] <popey> not yet
[08:56] <willcooke> :/
[08:56] <zmoylan-pi> so fingers crossed it still makes it
[08:57] <daftykins> ugh £45 to see a doctor over here these days
[08:57] <popey> blimey
[08:57] <popey> do you not have NHS style healthcare?
[08:57] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:58] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:59] <popey> http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/11/11/leak-download-lollipop-lrx21p-factory-image-for-2012-nexus-7-wifi/ interesting
[08:59] <daftykins> popey: nah, you pay for GP consultations but you can get seen practically same day if you're early enough
[08:59] <daftykins> i've always been given the impression there's a wait in England?
[08:59] <popey> depends
[08:59] <popey> I usually get same day appointment
[09:00] <popey> depends how urgent it is
[09:00] <daftykins> i didn't pay anything after my accident, even referrals to the physio
[09:00] <christel> daftykins: whereabouts are you?
[09:01] <daftykins> Guernsey, channel islands
[09:01] <daftykins> we're nestled in just above France
[09:01] <christel> *nod*
[09:02] <daftykins> some would have us labelled french mutations ;)
[09:02] <christel> hehe
[09:02] <daftykins> what's kind of amusing is i've got a doctors surgery just along the high street from me now, but i've not been since i was a couple of miles away at my parents place, where it was a short stroll down the road
[09:02] <zmoylan-pi> i'm just surprised apple hasn't bought the islands as a tax haven :-p
[09:02] <MooDoo> where i am, if you ring up before 8 they can try and get you in for an emergency
[09:03] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: the Queen wouldn't allow it ;)
[09:04] <zmoylan-pi> think of all the corgis she could get with apples kind of dosh, she could turn wales into giant corgi sanctuary :-p
[09:04] <popey> Someone just said "yes!" on the stream. I presume this is a good thing
[09:04] <daftykins> they might've just gotten given their tax rebate ;)
[09:04] <zmoylan-pi> or his system finally rebooted on patch tuesday...
[09:05] <daftykins> hahaha
[09:06] <daftykins> amusing part 2 is that they'll charge me an admin fee to sign up to another branch 0o
[09:06] <daftykins> the island's 26 square miles :( heh
[09:08] <christel> MooDoo: i have never had a problem getting a same-day appointment, the only appoitment challenge i've encounter is when trying to book a follow-up appointment in say three days or whatever as they will generally have booked up the appointments not allocated for same-day and try to offer you one in three weeks instead :)
[09:11] <DJones> Just a heads up for people updating to Android 5.0, if you use SkyGo, be aware it doesn't work with the lollipop yet and no date on when the updated app will be available
[09:13] <DJones> Which is a bit frustrating for me as it looks like the LgG3 is getting the update starting this week
[09:14] <MooDoo> christel: :p ;)
[09:14] <MartijnVdS> I'm waiting for the Nexus 5 UTA
[09:14] <MartijnVdS> OTA
[09:15] <popey> I assume there will be an OTA for Nexus 7 2012?
[09:15] <DJones> I heard a rumour that the iphone was getting Lollipop before the nexus 5 :)
[09:15] <popey> given they showed a leaked image (linked above)
[09:15] <DJones> popey: You'd assume so
[09:17] <daftykins> i'm already not fond of the new materials design gmail on my Nexus 4
[09:17] <popey> if not I don't mind flashing clean. I dont actually use my nexus 7 2012 for anything other than irssinotifier
[09:17] <daftykins> but ho-hum, classic change i guess
[09:17] <popey> yeah, i dont like the new gmail app
[09:17] <DJones> http://www.idigitaltimes.com/android-50-lollipop-release-date-nexus-5-nexus-7-nexus-10-nexus-4-get-ota-rollout-394243
[09:18] <DJones> Rollout from 12th November
[09:18] <DJones> Includes N7 but doesn't specifify which N7 models
[09:19] <popey> https://twitter.com/Tesco/status/529927865840971776
[09:19] <popey> pffft
[09:20] <popey> to be fair google haven't released AOSP yet
[09:20] <popey> so it's hard for anyone (other than big partners) to do any updates
[09:20] <MartijnVdS> popey: google released 5.0 sources
[09:20] <MartijnVdS> popey: and people have compiled AOSP roms from them
[09:20] <daftykins> there's a certain rabid nature to those desiring updates, though i'm not even particularly sure there's much to be after
[09:21] <popey> oh they have now?
[09:21] <MartijnVdS> popey: several weeks ago already I think
[09:21] <foobarry> daftykins: +1
[09:21] <popey> they hadn't last time I looked.
[09:22] <popey> nah, they didnt back a week ago
[09:22] <foobarry> who are these people that foam at the mouth I MUST HAVE IT NOOOOW
[09:22] <MartijnVdS> http://www.phonearena.com/news/Android-5.0-Lollipop-source-hits-AOSP-including-some-Nexus-branches_id62443
[09:22] <MartijnVdS> ^ 9 days ago
[09:22] <popey> so we're both right, good enough
[09:22] <daftykins> i for one will laugh and watch for the bad news post-update then wait for fixed releases ;D
[09:25] <MartijnVdS> wow
[09:25] <MartijnVdS> http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/10/28/nexus-5-owners-check-your-google-play-movies-tv-app-you-might-have-a-free-copy-of-gravity-waiting-for-you/
[09:27] <daftykins> shame it's terrible ;)
[09:27] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: free is free 8-)
[09:28] <daftykins> oh wow shaun the sheep is free on my nexus 4
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> wow
[09:28] <daftykins> i've never even run Play Movies & TV before
[09:28] <foobarry> daftykins: game? got a link?
[09:28] <daftykins> film apparently sir
[09:29] <zmoylan-pi> i liked gravity, lots wrong with it but nicely done
[09:30] <daftykins> just seemed a bit like calamity-Bullock breaking everything in her path to me ;)
[09:30] <popey> yeah, i liked gravity too, watched it a few times
[09:30] <popey> Moon is also great
[09:30] <zmoylan-pi> some people are just bad with tech, we used one manager to test all software as he could make the most dependable debugged software crash
[09:30] <foobarry> daftykins: i didn't know the film had come out yet
[09:32] <zmoylan-pi> it's nice to see hard sci fi instead of whizz bang aliens sci fi for a change
[09:32] <foobarry> and a 7 minute episode daftykins but its a great one
[09:32]  * zmoylan-pi is hoping the do foundation justice as tv series
[09:32] <zmoylan-pi> not sure how they can though
[09:33] <DJones> There's only one scify movie to watch, all time classic "Silent Running"
[09:33] <zmoylan-pi> 2010
[09:33] <daftykins> heh this shaun the sheep thing is only 7 mins
[09:33] <zmoylan-pi> the day the earth stood still
[09:33] <daftykins> oops yes foobarry :D
[09:34] <bigcalm> daftykins: children have short attention spans
[09:34] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy World Architecture Day! :-D
[09:34] <daftykins> so do i apparently
[09:34] <daftykins> :>
[09:35] <awilkins> Is that computer architecture or buildings?
[09:35] <DJones> JamesTait: 32 or 64 bit?
[09:35] <JamesTait> DJones, YES!
[09:52] <MooDoo> bigcalm: don't know what you oooo look a unicorn :)
[09:53] <bigcalm> :P
[09:53] <bigcalm> That's a cat with an inflatable horn
[09:53] <zmoylan-pi> cats and inflatable are brief acquaintences
[09:57] <daftykins> i've been introduced to Star Trek TOS recently, an episode had these dogs with horns fitted to their heads XD
[09:57] <daftykins> henceforth to be known as 'dogicorns'
[09:57] <zmoylan-pi> original flash gordon had iguanas with rubber frills :-)
[09:58] <daftykins> a client has just email'd me saying a supplier of their has graphics in their email signatures - so they want to do the same
[09:58] <daftykins> it appears to be three images hosted on their site embedded into an HTML email
[09:59] <zmoylan-pi> and how big is the image?
[09:59] <daftykins> e.g. http://www.specialistglass.co.uk/esignatures/michael-mccabe.jpg
[09:59] <zmoylan-pi> then then terms and conditions in the image won't apply as they may not be available when the email is read
[09:59] <daftykins> http://www.specialistglass.co.uk/esignatures/gallery.jpg and http://www.specialistglass.co.uk/esignatures/footer.jpg
[10:00] <daftykins> yeah i'm surprised they saw them without having to enable it in Outlook or some such
[10:01] <daftykins> ho-hum, told 'em i don't do graphics anyway so i'm no help
[10:03] <bigcalm> Morning intrbiz
[10:04] <davmor2> morning bigcalm
[10:04] <bigcalm> Hi davmor2
[10:04] <bigcalm> davmor2: how's your health?
[10:05] <MooDoo> howdy davmor2 me ole mate me ole pal
[10:05] <davmor2> bigcalm: better today but I'll let you know latter if I'm going, I want to be well enough that I don't infect you all :)
[10:05] <zmoylan-pi> flee! MooDoo's looking for a favour!! :-)
[10:06] <christel> davmor2: sharing is caring!
[10:07] <davmor2> zmoylan-pi: no he isn't, He's not dumb enough to ask me for a favour it means he owes me and my favours are far worse ;)
[10:07] <davmor2> christel: not this close to the christmas meal it isn't :)
[10:07] <zmoylan-pi> there's obviously a complicated back story that should be in the channel header :-)
[10:08] <davmor2> Morning MooDoo me owld mucka 'ow am ya
[10:09] <MooDoo> davmor2: crackin lad....
[10:10] <davmor2> intrbiz: dude really have you moved over to the darkside or is this just the busier channel for wolves lug now :)
[10:11] <MooDoo> davmor2: nothing wrong with the dark side :D
[10:11] <zmoylan-pi> dark toblerone.... mmmmmm
[10:12] <davmor2> MooDoo: I didn't say there was we're the happiest people on the planet :)
[10:12] <bigcalm> davmor2: not sharing is preferable :)
[10:13] <davmor2> bigcalm: indeed :)
[10:16] <davmor2> MooDoo: So I woke up this morning and the tune playing loud in my head was the Kinks Lola
[10:16] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:16] <zmoylan-pi> was listening to that song while walking to shops yesterday, still a great song
[10:20] <daftykins> speaking of music, i dumped a lot of MP3 for FLAC rips yesterday, seems the ol' Music folder has ballooned to 160GB now :O
[10:20] <MartijnVdS> 252G	Muziek
[10:20] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: lightweight ;)
[10:20] <daftykins> ^_^
[10:20] <daftykins> i could still prune a lot of that out ;)
[10:21] <MartijnVdS> I have most of this (the stuff I didn't buy as a download..) as proper CDs as well :)
[10:21] <zmoylan-pi> no vinyl?
[10:21] <daftykins> MartijnVdS: do you use FLAC?
[10:22] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: yes
[10:22] <davmor2> I may be forced to listen to The Lord of the Rings bbc radio adaptation on all 13 cds
[10:22] <MartijnVdS> zmoylan-pi: I have some vinyl too, but those come with mp3 downloads OR flac downloads these days 8-)
[10:23] <daftykins> davmor2: my my, you'll wear out the eject motor!
[10:23] <zmoylan-pi> i would love to get the version of the hobbit read on jackanory by cribbins
[10:23] <daftykins> 24/96 FLAC i hope? ;)
[10:24] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: Ripping CDs to anything other than 44100/16 bit is a bit useless
[10:25] <daftykins> i know that, but i refer to vinyl ripping
[10:25] <daftykins> which is oft done to 24/96
[10:25] <davmor2> zmoylan-pi: I have the bbc adaptation of the hobbit too
[10:27] <daftykins> i must stop using my parents co-op share number (you get 4p in the pound over here dividend) but i don't fancy another 5 digit number to remember :D
[10:28] <popey> hmm
[10:28] <popey> I'd run out of space on my phone if I used flac
[10:28] <popey> very quickly
[10:28] <daftykins> well you transcode for mobile devices
[10:28] <foobarry> have you seen mp3fs?
[10:28] <popey> reminds me, need to get a couple of 32GB SD cards
[10:28] <daftykins> because the processing overhead for FLAC causes rapid battery drain on mobile too
[10:28] <foobarry> http://khenriks.github.io/mp3fs/
[10:28] <popey> ahayzen: ^^ you use flac on your ubuntu phone?
[10:29] <ahayzen> popey, i do yes 8GB of flac on the device pretty much :)
[10:29] <daftykins> just need kitchen-sinkfs now
[10:29] <popey> ahayzen: battery life suffers?
[10:29] <ahayzen> popey, not really lasted the whole plane from DC->LHR and bus ride to oxford with still ~50%+ battery left :)
[10:30] <popey> blimey
[10:30] <ahayzen> popey, the CPU usage isn't too different to playing mp3s
[10:30] <daftykins> the (rough estimate) 10x greater IO to read a 10x larger file would speak of a definite difference
[10:30] <popey> thats like 12 hours or so?
[10:30] <popey> ahayzen: it's gstreamer + codec isn't it?
[10:31] <davmor2> daftykins: they have that, it's called a dishwasher
[10:31] <ahayzen> popey, yeah ages... as Jim said to me at the sprint we are rivalling android/ios for battery life already when just playing music (and the app has a lifecycle exception :P)
[10:31] <popey> nice
[10:31] <popey> thats something we get asked about a lot
[10:31] <popey> "Yeah, but what's the battery life like!?"
[10:32] <zmoylan-pi> well cramming what is a full desktop os into a mobile device will generate questions on battery
[10:32] <ahayzen> popey, i detailed some of the different CPU usages of formats while investigating bug 1373392
[10:33] <popey> zmoylan-pi: sure.
[10:33] <popey> ahayzen: hah, that bug is a bit lolworthy ☻
[10:33] <popey> there's some bizarre behaviour on mobile devices
[10:34] <ahayzen> popey, yeah i was like so playing via bluetooth uses *less* CPU \o/
[10:34] <popey> yeah
[10:34] <ahayzen> popey, the pulse guys reckoned the reason was playing via bluetooth has a higher buffer size
[10:34] <daftykins> heh that seems utterly backwards
[10:34]  * zmoylan-pi is very happy with battery life on feature phone nokia.  no matter how much i use it in a day i can't get it below 75% left :-)
[10:35] <popey> zmoylan-pi: which model?
[10:35] <zmoylan-pi> nokia asha 201
[10:35] <popey> nice
[10:35] <daftykins> that thing looks like a blackberry!
[10:35] <zmoylan-pi> and i've bounced it off ground a few times to show people how much it doesn't care
[10:35] <davmor2> ahayzen: I blame you for this ;)
[10:35] <daftykins> haha
[10:36] <zmoylan-pi> only thing missing at the mo is a good java text editor for it
[10:36] <ahayzen> davmor2, well it is todo with music-app ;) ... can i blame tvoss ?
[10:36] <davmor2> ahayzen: no but you are aloud to blame jhodapp
[10:36] <daftykins> a friend bought some new form of nokia device, he's even got whatsapp on it now but refuses to use it to message us for free X|
[10:37] <ahayzen> davmor2, hehe :)
[10:37] <davmor2> allowed even
[10:37] <daftykins> well, 'free'
[10:37]  * popey hugs telegram
[10:37] <ahayzen> popey, is there a telegram click yet or do you still have to build it?
[10:39] <popey> golly.. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/whatsapp-compatible-native-client-for-ubuntu-phone/x/1051579
[10:39] <popey> he hit the target
[10:40] <daftykins> glad facebook haven't ruined it... yet.
[10:41] <zmoylan-pi> give them time
[10:41] <daftykins> :)
[10:45] <davmor2> they have time to absorb it into facebook messenger yet
[10:45] <popey> davmor2: got time for some music testing? ☻
[10:46] <daftykins> davmor2: *shudder*
[10:46]  * ahayzen hides and pretends music is working perfectly
[10:47] <popey> heh
[10:47]  * popey emails
[10:48] <ali1234> why is gstreamer so bad at format support?
[10:49] <ali1234> mpv can play most formats, and if you install the proper ffmpeg it can play nearly anything
[10:49] <ali1234> gstreamer freezes and crashes with anything but a few simple formats, and if oyu install the real ffmpeg it doesn't work at all
[10:50] <davmor2> popey I might have
[10:50] <zmoylan-pi> the problem is that you have the strayed from the true path of vlc :-p
[10:51] <ali1234> vlc is rubbish
[10:51] <davmor2> ahayzen: chicken
[10:51] <ali1234> it can play any format as long as you don't mind the audio and video is always out of sync
[10:51]  * zmoylan-pi never has that problem with vlc.  ymmv
[10:51]  * brobostigon neither.
[10:52] <zmoylan-pi> and i use the oldest, cheapest, nastiest hardware with the least ram
[10:52] <foobarry> i see vlc sync issues sometimes
[10:52] <foobarry> also vlc didn't play a format for me yesterday :(
[10:52] <ali1234> it also can't play back HD footage at 30 FPS because it is too slow
[10:53] <brobostigon> which format?
[10:53] <foobarry> g2m4 codec
[10:54] <foobarry> 12.04 ubuntu doesn't have a vlc available that runs it
[10:57] <popey> yeah, I've mostly switched from vlc to mpv
[10:57] <popey> seems much better/leaner
[10:58] <foobarry> whats mpv?
[10:58] <foobarry> !info mpv
[10:59] <foobarry> codec not available "enable it at compilation"
[11:00] <ali1234> vs gstreamers, "codec not available? please wait..... ..... ..... would you like me to download it from the internet? ..... please wait some more ....... ...... sorry I couldn't download it."
[11:00] <foobarry> VLC does not support the audio or video format "G2M4". Unfortunately there is no way for you to fix this.
[11:01] <foobarry> heh
[11:01] <popey> what the hell is g2m4?
[11:01] <foobarry> gotomeeting webcast
[11:02] <foobarry> these things tend to crop up a bit if there's a conf call via gotomeeting
[11:02] <foobarry> webinars etc
[11:02] <popey> ya
[11:04] <davmor2> foobarry: latest vlc has support but that won't be the version we have for a little while though there is a ppa for it
[11:06] <davmor2> MooDoo: bit of stairway to heaven now dude
[11:11] <MooDoo> davmor2: hungergames soundtrack
[11:13] <foobarry> davmor2: ppa in 12.04? i can only get 2.0.8 from vlc ppa i found
[11:14] <daftykins> back later!
[11:24] <ali1234> bug 1391837
[11:34] <davmor2> foobarry: sudo add-apt-repository ppa:videolan/stable-daily try that one
[11:35] <foobarry> yes, have that one. gave me 2.0.8
[11:35] <foobarry> doesn't matter, will try on my other pc when i want to watch these
[11:36] <foobarry> with newer buntu
[11:42] <zmoylan-pi> ah, didn't realise that xkcd was doing a 'live' cartoon today. :-) http://xkcd.com/
[11:44] <penguin42> yes thanks for popey telling us :-)
[11:48] <foobarry> does anything happen in it?
[11:49] <foobarry> when does it start
[11:49] <foobarry> oh , something appeared now
[11:59] <daftykins> aww yeah, second and third cycle trips survived - recycling taken \o/
[11:59] <daftykins> hah, sunlight is right in my eyes right now, where i sit at my desktop
[12:00] <daftykins> gotta lean in over the keyboard to avoid it ;)
[12:00] <zmoylan-pi> make a call to mr. burns and see if his giant block out the sun device is for sale
[12:00] <foobarry> my patio is getting dug up today
[12:01] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: i'm on it!
[12:01] <foobarry> wonder what they will find
[12:02] <penguin42> foobarry: So, that's where Lord Lucan went....
[12:02] <foobarry> i'm only the third person to live here since it was built in 1930s
[12:02] <foobarry> and one of the others was my sister (previous owner)
[12:03] <zmoylan-pi> and shergar
[12:07] <foobarry> no he's in the freezer
[12:07] <zmoylan-pi> yours or tescos? :-)
[12:08] <daftykins> my papers go back a few centuries on my 17th century cottage :>
[12:08] <daftykins> (for previous owners)
[12:08] <zmoylan-pi> and you're still waiting for solicter from them to get back to you? :-D
[12:08] <daftykins> :D
[12:08] <daftykins> also, local property records are in French
[12:08] <popey> Lunchtime! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30000934
[12:09] <Laney> wee
[12:09] <Laney> legal and general let me upload my pgp key for them to encrypt mails to
[12:09] <penguin42> Laney: Wow - how did you get them to do that?
[12:09] <Laney> it's some symantec secure mail system they use
[12:10] <zmoylan-pi> made an offer they couldn't refuse, brought muffins? :-)
[12:10] <penguin42> Laney: oh yeh I remember having to use the web interface on that once but didn't see any pgp thin
[12:10] <penguin42> g
[12:10] <Laney> was an option when receiving the first mail
[12:10] <Laney> you could probably go back in and set it up now
[12:16] <christel> popey: it is so wrong it is nearly right indeed, i would totally try that :s
[12:24] <daftykins> i like the quote - "...why is this sort of food available?"
[12:24] <daftykins> something something something... demand? :>
[12:30] <daftykins> chop chop 5,000 or 9,000 files copied
[12:30] <daftykins> s/or/of/
[12:38] <NET||abuse> hi guys. i'm using GNOME Terminal 3.12.3, couple of odd behaviours, i'm having very laggy rendering (in gnome-shell 3.12 from gnome3-team ppa) and when i scale text (ctrl-{+,-}
[12:39] <NET||abuse> it resizes the window, rather than just scaling the text and keeping the window at the existing dimensions.. it's actually exactly what i don't want
[12:39] <NET||abuse> the one thing i want is text-reflow. otherwise i'd be back in terminator :P
[12:40] <NET||abuse> has anyone got alternative terminals/fixes for gnome terminal?
[12:42] <daftykins> i wonder if there's a gnome channel give your use of a PPA
[13:31] <Azelphur> On a roll today, had a power cut which turned all my stuff off, MicroServer won't boot because of the hard drive that failed, and my 70mbit fibre is http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3903524619
[13:31] <Azelphur> going for the high score of failure? o.O
[13:33] <daftykins> Azelphur: :(
[13:33] <daftykins> i'd go back to bed ;)
[13:33] <daftykins> Wednesday is cancelled!
[13:38] <directhex> i cancelled wednesday & went back to bed
[13:38] <directhex> just got up
[13:38] <directhex> still tired
[13:38] <zmoylan-pi> my personal /best/ for failures was it took 6 hours to replace a dodgy floppy drive.  and it destroyed 3 other drives in the attempt/process.
[13:39] <daftykins> ouch! HDDs?
[13:39] <daftykins> ooh-err suns gone so it's cold again
[13:39]  * daftykins battons down the hatches
[13:43] <penguin42> zmoylan-pi: Please don't say this, I need to go and remount a drive later
[13:43] <daftykins> lol
[13:43] <daftykins> or when i went to do some dust maintenance on my file server, the PSU died and i couldn't use it until a replacement arrived :(
[13:43] <penguin42> Azelphur: It's pretty impressive getting that sort of upload with almost no download
[13:44] <daftykins> :D
[13:44] <daftykins> quite the async role reversal
[13:44] <penguin42> daftykins: I've got 2 drives in a RAID, and the 2nd drive makes the case vibrate strongly, I've put up with it for months now but it's driving me nuts
[13:44] <Azelphur> penguin42: indeed, it has happened before when my ISP has oversold a location
[13:44] <Azelphur> I'm gonna get angry with them if that's the case this time
[13:45] <daftykins> penguin42: doh! you need some nice rubber grommets or some such :D
[13:45] <zmoylan-pi> i remember my boss ran out of compressed air dusters so brought an ancient cpm computer to nearest garage and used their vaccuum to clean out the 10 years of dust and cobwebs.  never worked again
[13:45] <penguin42> Azelphur: If you've had a power cut it's possible the DSLAM in the cabinet has also lost power and it's just figuring out again
[13:45] <penguin42> daftykins: Yeh I was thinking a lump of foam and mounting the drive on a tray
[13:45] <Azelphur> penguin42: could be, the cabinet is right outside
[13:45] <Azelphur> that's hopefully more likely than them overselling for a third time
[13:47] <penguin42> Azelphur: Well, I'd expect them to oversell, but it would be surprising if it happened to kick in just as you had a power outage, unless your electricity company is also overselling....
[13:47] <daftykins> Azelphur: they actually admit it?
[13:48] <Azelphur> daftykins: yes, they actually admitted it both times and reprioritised my line after much complaining so that I had some semblance of a functional connection
[13:48] <Azelphur> they didn't use the word overselling, they said "an influx of new customers"
[13:48] <daftykins> ah-har
[13:49] <Azelphur> which to me equates to "You sold my internet connection to someone else"
[13:49] <Azelphur> :P
[13:54] <foobarry> saw a puma and chinook at lunchtime overhead
[13:55] <daftykins> must've been one scared puma getting airlifted ;)
[13:58] <davmor2> bigcalm: don't think I'll be going to night I'm off to bed now :(  If you could pay the fiver that would be awesome thanks dude.
[13:59] <bigcalm> davmor2: no worries. Get well soon mate
[14:05] <bigcalm> czajkowski: how does couchbase compare to mongodb?
[14:15] <zmoylan-pi> i think she's at a trade thingy today, judging by her twitter feed
[14:20] <intrbiz>  bigcalm How does PostgreSQL 9.4 compare to mongodb or couchbase ;)
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> didn't postgresql beat those on benchmarks ;)
[14:20] <bigcalm> intrbiz: I have no experience with any of those 3
[14:21] <intrbiz> MartijnVdS: yup, faster than Mongo for importing JSON and querying JSON in some benchmarks I've seen, still in beta though
[14:22] <zmoylan-pi> shouldn't any benchmarks now be required to be shown wether it's on hdd, sdd or some mobile platform?
[14:22] <intrbiz> PostgreSQL 9.4 with JSONB, will be awesome, someone phrased it as 'they've put mongo inside PostgreSQL'
[14:23] <intrbiz> zmoylan-pi: That is irrelevant when you are testing two applications on the same server
[14:23] <zmoylan-pi> true, but for chosing which database to use...
[14:23] <zmoylan-pi> on a particular project
[14:24] <intrbiz> zmoylan-pi: The benchmark was run on an AWS instance IRRC
[14:25] <intrbiz> zmoylan-pi: These days, I'd stick any database on an SSD
[14:26] <intrbiz> The PostgreSQL 9.4 v Mongo benchmark EDB did is here: http://blogs.enterprisedb.com/2014/09/24/postgres-outperforms-mongodb-and-ushers-in-new-developer-reality/
[14:29] <zmoylan-pi> ah ha, the fox is back, been missing a few weeks. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9j38UmSYjClRVdqMW1CQ3Bidlk/view?usp=sharing
[14:31] <daftykins> :O
[14:31] <daftykins> is... that a bunch of cocktail sausages and dog/cat food?
[14:32] <zmoylan-pi> a bunch of slugs fighting over catfood. no local wild life will eat the spanish slugs... :-/
[14:32] <zmoylan-pi> i usually salt the area but the heavy rain washes it away
[14:32] <daftykins> oh yeah i see stalks now XD
[14:33] <haya> hi guys plz help me, when i comiple kernel 2.6.11 in ubuntu, i got these errors,
[14:33] <haya> make[1]: *** [arch/x86_64/kernel/process.o] Error 1 make: *** [arch/x86_64/kernel] Error 2
[14:34] <daftykins> compiling an arch kernel on ubuntu, lol.
[14:35] <haya> tell me the solution
[14:35] <haya> im new in linux
[14:35] <intrbiz> haya: are you compiling such an old kernel for any particular reason?
[14:35] <directhex> yeah, that's neolithic. it won't support any of your hardware
[14:35] <directhex> http://i.imgur.com/g60eHhg.jpg
[14:36] <haya> yeah, bcz kernel 2.6.11 support the macKill patches
[14:38] <intrbiz> haya: forgive my ignorance but what is mackill and why do you want it?
[14:39] <ali1234> haya: going to need the full output not just the last line
[14:39] <haya> Mackill is a little tool for dropping IP Packets which where sent by an host having a certain hardware address.
[14:40] <intrbiz> haya: can you not use ebtables?
[14:40] <ali1234> just make a filewall rule?
[14:40] <MartijnVdS> haya: so.. you could use ebtables or iptables?
[14:41] <haya>   CHK     include/linux/version.h   UPD     include/linux/version.h   SYMLINK include/asm -> include/asm-x86_64   SPLIT   include/linux/autoconf.h -> include/config/*   HOSTCC  scripts/genksyms/genksyms.o   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/lex.c   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/parse.h   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/keywords.c   HOSTCC  scripts/genksyms/lex.o   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/parse.c   HOSTCC  scripts/genksyms/parse.o   HOSTLD  scripts/genksym
[14:41] <haya>   CHK     include/linux/version.h   UPD     include/linux/version.h   SYMLINK include/asm -> include/asm-x86_64   SPLIT   include/linux/autoconf.h -> include/config/*   HOSTCC  scripts/genksyms/genksyms.o   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/lex.c   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/parse.h   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/keywords.c   HOSTCC  scripts/genksyms/lex.o   SHIPPED scripts/genksyms/parse.c   HOSTCC  scripts/genksyms/parse.o   HOSTLD  scripts/genksym
[14:41] <directhex> http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/iptables-mac-address-filtering.html
[14:42] <directhex> simple.
[14:42] <daftykins> haya: don't paste please
[14:42] <directhex> haya: is the target computer newer than 2005?
[14:42] <haya> yeah
[14:43] <directhex> haya: then 2.6.11 won't have drivers for it
[14:43] <haya> but its my project requirement
[14:43] <directhex> ._.
[14:43] <directhex> hooray for coursework not updated for a decade
[14:43] <intrbiz> haya: 2.6.11 is a 2005 kernel, even if you get it to compile your unlikely to get any modern userland to work
[14:44] <intrbiz> haya: and 2.6.11 is completely unsupported
[14:44] <ali1234> nonsense
[14:44] <ali1234> unless by "modern userland" you mean unity and gnome
[14:44] <jpds> ali1234: Dude, go and install systemd already.
[14:44] <directhex> ali1234: udev?
[14:44] <intrbiz> ali1234: no i meant udev / systemd etc
[14:44] <haya> but these old kernel only support the MacKill Patches
[14:44] <haya> new kernels dnt support it
[14:45] <intrbiz> haya: so look for an alternative to MacKill, I suspect ebtables will do what you need
[14:45] <ali1234> udev was around before 2005
[14:45] <directhex> ali1234: but there was a breaking ABI change in it, which caused many upgrade issues between debian releases
[14:46] <directhex> https://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgrading-udev
[14:47] <jpds> haya: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg05622.html
[14:48] <ali1234> this does not mean software won't work
[14:48] <jpds> haya: First hit googling "mackill linux kernel".
[14:48] <haya> anyone can tell me the solution??
[14:50] <jpds> haya: Do you have to compile such an ancient kernel?
[14:50] <haya> yeah
[14:51] <directhex> okay.
[14:51] <directhex> i think you'll have more luck doing this in a debian 5 VM.
[14:51] <jpds> haya: Better go to http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/ and install 5.04 in a VM.
[14:52] <foobarry> haya: but why>?
[14:52] <foobarry> what course /project is this for?
 5.04 for what??
[14:54] <haya> i have instaled etch debain base system on usb and now installing kernel and then login from usb <foobarry?
[14:54] <directhex> so you already *have* debian 5.
[14:54] <directhex> no, that's 4
[14:54] <directhex> jesus
[14:55] <directhex> oh yeah, debian. etch was 2007
[14:56] <directhex> 2.6.18
[14:58] <daftykins> seems like an exercise in futility - impressive, lecturer.
[14:59] <directhex> this is decade-old course materials, showing how to do something in a frustrating manner which is a 1-liner today
[14:59] <directhex> it's a waste of time for everyone involved
[15:00] <daftykins> so, education then? :)
[15:02] <haya> oh please dn't give me a lecture and tell me a solution
[15:02] <directhex> time travel?
[15:03] <directhex> you haven't actually said what the build error is
[15:03] <intrbiz> haya: the solution is to use IPTables on a recent distro release
[15:04] <daftykins> what a terribly unfriendly fellow
[15:04] <directhex> haya: "Error 1" from Make means "the last thing just above this line caused a build failure". it's meaningless without context.
[15:06] <foobarry> if you really want help with your homework maybe you should paste the entire problem as posed to you
[15:06] <haya> {standard input}: Assembler messages: {standard input}:1111: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `mov' {standard input}:1137: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `mov' {standard input}:2157: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `mov' {standard input}:2159: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `mov' {standard input}:2161: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `mov' {standard input}:2163: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `mov'
[15:06] <foobarry> i fear that people are trying to solve your interpretation of the problem
[15:07] <daftykins> haya: use http://paste.ubuntu.com from now on
[15:07] <NET||abuse> hmm, having fun with usb now..
[15:08] <daftykins> it's the fUnSerialBus!
[15:08] <NET||abuse> somhow, my mouse is still working, yet if i plugin a usb ethernet or usb memory stick, neither register, the lights on either don't light up,
[15:08] <NET||abuse> suod lsusb just hanging
[15:08] <daftykins> dmesg?
[15:08] <NET||abuse> been waiting 2 minutes
[15:08] <daftykins> this a laptop?
[15:10] <directhex> haya: okay, that's a problem with inline assembly for your processor architecture.
[15:10] <haya> so whats the solution??
[15:11] <directhex> haya: possible issues: a bug in the kernel version you're trying to use; a bug in the assembly, which a newer compiler is refusing to touch; problems introduced by your patches; a bug in the compiler you're using
[15:14] <haya> directhex: so tell me how can i solve this problem
[15:15] <directhex> have you asked your lecturer? you're supposed to bring problems with assignments to their attention
[15:15] <daftykins> haya: what level of education is this at?
[15:16] <zmoylan-pi> i'd set about compiling a recent kernel to make sure all my ducks were in a row before trying an ancient one
[15:16] <haya> directhex: yeah he knows but he thinks its posible
[15:16] <directhex> what is your *actual* assignment?
[15:18] <haya> directhex: first instal etch debain on usb then append MacKill patches in kernel and compile the kernel from source then install lilo and finally login from usb
[15:18] <directhex> ._.
[15:19] <directhex> so you're supposed to *patch the debian kernel*, or do a new kernel from scratch?
[15:20] <directhex> hm, /me has a hunch
[15:20] <haya> :(
[15:21] <haya> debain kernel
[15:21] <directhex> did you install 32-bit or 64-bit etch?
[15:24] <haya> i dnt know exactly, i used this command, sudo debootstrap etch /mnt/buildroot/ http://archive.debian.org/debian/
[15:24] <NET||abuse> daftykins, yeh, laptop, sorry got grabbed re work stuff for a minute
[15:25] <daftykins> NET||abuse: did they appear within that time? :)
[15:25] <NET||abuse> nope
[15:26] <NET||abuse> hmmm    unregister_netdevice: waiting for eth0 to become free. Usage count =
[15:26] <NET||abuse> 1
[15:26] <daftykins> i wonder if your USB controllers are a tad wonky
[15:27] <NET||abuse> laptop is and XPS-15-9530, Intel C220 chipset
[15:28] <daftykins> pull the mains and battery, then fresh boot?
[15:29] <haya> directhex: ??
[15:29] <NET||abuse> have message continually running.. wiating for eth0 to become free.. Usage count = 1
[15:29] <directhex> haya: go into the chroot and run "dpkg-architecture"
[15:29] <NET||abuse> hmm, maybe that vm is doing something odd.
[15:30] <directhex> you care about DEB_HOST_ARCH
[15:32] <popey> https://gigaom.com/2014/11/12/a-milestone-moment-for-microsoft-net-is-now-an-open-source-project/
[15:33] <daftykins> O_O
[15:33] <penguin42> popey: Wow interesting, I wonder which licenses - but that's interesting
[15:34] <haya> directhex: i used "dpkg-architecture" but problem is still same
[15:34] <directhex> popey: er, isn't that still under embargo?
[15:35] <directhex> haya: sigh. dpkg-architecture will tell you information. it isn't some magic command to make your 10 year old coursework right. it's information useful for debugging
[15:37] <popey> directhex: seems not
[15:37] <popey> directhex: its all over twitter
[15:41] <daftykins> lol we have someone asking the exact same kernel compilation thing in #ubuntu now
[15:41] <daftykins> who bets we get more of the same class in soon :P
[15:46] <foobarry> i don't get the question
[15:47] <foobarry> i find it hard to believe that they would really be asked to do that on a 10yr old kernel
[15:47] <daftykins> yeah, seems a bit dubious
[15:47] <foobarry> the question was never explicitly stated
[15:48] <daftykins> i sense there's a reason for the lack of completeness
[15:48] <intrbiz> it sounds like the lecturer hasn't tried to do it recently
[15:48] <foobarry> surely somebody would reason with him
[15:48] <foobarry> also, if no linux skills then kernel ciompilcaition? really?
[15:48] <foobarry> extra letters there
[15:48] <intrbiz> the only thing it teaches is that time marches on and there are multiple solutions to any problem
[15:49] <foobarry> time marches on , except syllabi
[15:49] <ali1234> clompication
[16:03] <foobarry> bit late in the day for my brain
[16:03] <foobarry> how to i double indent a <li> list?
[16:03] <foobarry> heh, forget that
[16:13] <Seeker`> oooh, they landed on the comet
[16:20] <bigcalm> The clock is missing from my notification area. Trying to use the Time & Date config to find out what's wrong is greyed out: http://discworld.cuth.eu/dump/datetime_settings_dialog.png
[16:20] <bigcalm> Anybody know how to fix this without restarting the machine or lightgdm?
[16:21] <ali1234> restart unity panel service or something
[16:23] <bigcalm> Not something I'm used to doing. Do you know how to do that?
[16:23] <bigcalm> davmor2: stop being ill and fix my computer
[16:26] <bigcalm> sudo fix my computer
[16:27] <penguin42> bigcalm: it's normally a case of restarting indicator-timedate or something like that
[17:06] <ali1234> bigcalm: the exact method for restarting the indicator services seems to change more often than i change my socks
[17:13] <bigcalm> Ew
[17:20]  * daftykins sniffs
[17:20] <daftykins> ali1234: not sure that carries much weight ;)
[17:38] <bigcalm> > 12MB/s torrenting
[17:38]  * bigcalm bounces
[17:39] <daftykins> :O
[17:40] <bigcalm> 13.2MB/s now :)
[17:40] <daftykins> what's the service?
[17:40] <bigcalm> VM cable. Meant to be 100/6
[17:41] <daftykins> hmm, more upload needed :( i have 40/5
[17:41] <bigcalm> Considering it's home time, I'm really surprised I'm getting a good rate
[17:42] <bigcalm> http://www.speedtest.net/result/3904196259.png
[17:43] <penguin42> bigcalm: That's going some :-)
[17:45] <bigcalm> I'm happy
[17:46] <bigcalm> I'll be happier once they install our telephone line
[17:46] <bigcalm> Nice that they are applying a credit to our account for the time we've been without the line
[17:47] <penguin42> bigcalm: vm seem to give credits if you ask; I've had a couple
[17:50] <daftykins> i only have a telephone line to provide my copper pair :(
[17:51] <zmoylan-pi> think of the money you'll save not using netflix or other online services
[17:51] <bigcalm> penguin42: I tried to leave VM. They asked how much I'd be willing to pay. Said £35/pcm and they agreed. So we now have a £20/pcm rolling credit
[17:52] <penguin42> bigcalm: !
[17:52] <bigcalm> Quite :)
[17:53] <penguin42> bigcalm: Still, I'm only paying ~27/month (basic cable package) and I can't get infinity here so I've not got much options
[17:53] <daftykins> when i had it in portsmouth the choice was probably them or get a phone line based service, i looked up at the phone line running over to a pole and was like 'naaaaah'
[17:53] <daftykins> come to think of it, that was when a 10Mb service was first offered in late 2006 O_O
[17:56] <bigcalm> I did my home work and knew I could get a decent FTTC connection here. So didn't mind if they didn't try too hard to keep me
[17:56] <bigcalm> Being calm and polite works wonders :)
[17:57] <daftykins> * bigcalm is now known as bigpolitecalm
[17:57] <bigcalm> Time to go and buy a dishwasher!
[17:57] <bigcalm> Heh
[17:57] <penguin42> they're excellent
[17:58] <bigpolitecalm> I like it
[17:58] <bigcalm> penguin42: what are?
[17:58] <daftykins> :D
[17:58] <bigcalm> 17:57 -!- You're now known as bigpolitecalm
[17:58] <bigcalm> 17:57 < bigpolitecalm> I like it
[17:58] <bigcalm> 17:58 -!- Keepnick: Nickstealer left [freenode], got bigcalm back
[17:59] <bigcalm> Heh, silly irssi proxy
[17:59] <daftykins> :D
[17:59] <penguin42> bigcalm: Dishwashers
[18:00] <bigcalm> penguin42: ah, I hope so :)
[18:00] <bigcalm> Paying 300 notes for an 18 month old one from a friend of my wife
[18:00] <daftykins> i wonder what the top end for virgin media cable is
[18:00] <daftykins> (downstream throughput)
[18:01]  * bigcalm runs away
[18:01] <penguin42> daftykins: I think top end is 120Mbps
[18:01] <daftykins> that the tech is capable of?
[18:01] <daftykins> surely not
[18:02] <daftykins> i should've been more specific perhaps
[18:04] <penguin42> daftykins: The tech is DOCSIS
[18:05] <penguin42> daftykins: My router claims it's in 'EU DOCSIS 3.0' mode
[18:05] <daftykins> apparently they can do 152/12
[18:06] <penguin42> nice
[18:06] <penguin42> daftykins: I'd actually like a bit more upstream, downstream I've got more than enough at the 50-60Mbps they give me
[18:07] <daftykins> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/07/virgin-media-uk-lab-testing-10gbps-docsis-3-1-broadband-upgrade.html
[18:07] <daftykins> yeah i agree, i'd like at least 10Mb
[18:07] <daftykins> the worst part is knowing my line is capable and just being offered less :(
[18:59] <camason> I've probably already missed the discussion... but any thoughts on the .net open-sourcing? What might it mean on Ubuntu?
[19:46] <map> why cant the months go quicker
[19:46] <map> i wanna go away but skip the weeks of work
[19:46] <penguin42> shhh don't suggest that, I'm on holiday this week
[19:47] <map> :D
[19:47] <foobarry> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30019976
[19:47] <foobarry> patch for winXP ?
[19:47] <map> im going to Barcelona 8th-12th december / Portugal in January / Morocco for 2 days at some point (we can get a ferry!)
[19:47] <map> and then off to Ibiza last week of may for the opening parties -- im 30 in 13 days so last time i can go there probably
[19:49] <zmoylan-pi> if we get penguin42 to go to meetings for map the time dilation will make the week seem longer and map gets to skip the work and everyone is happy! ;-)
[19:50] <penguin42> yeh what have I got to say?
[19:51] <penguin42> I assume just agree to all deadlines and volunteer to do all the work the next week?
[19:54] <map> yay
[19:54] <map> yea
[19:54] <map> you can do my job
[19:54] <map> il still get the pay though
[19:54] <map> deal?
[19:54] <map> :D
[19:55] <penguin42> hmm
[19:55] <map> tempting eh:D
[19:55] <zmoylan-pi> shhhh, that part was going to be a surprise :-p
[19:56] <map> heh
[19:57] <daftykins> foobarry: i sure hope XP doesn't get a patch, it should be hung out to dry
[19:57] <daftykins> but then XP embedded is still within support, so no doubt customers of that will demand a patch :(
[19:57] <map> xp lasted for years
[19:57] <map> it had a good life
[19:57] <map> yea isnt xp still used on lots of atms and everything
[19:58] <zmoylan-pi> xp will be around a few years yet, just a diminishing %
[19:58] <map> yea
[19:58] <map> until replacements etc
[19:58] <map> but it lasted 10+years?
[19:58] <map> good life for an OS imo
[19:58] <daftykins> we need to help it on its' way to death
[19:58] <zmoylan-pi> the dos used on russian satellites is still around and in use :-[
[19:58] <daftykins> refuse to fix it, etc.
[19:58] <zmoylan-pi> :-p
[19:59] <map> some of the stories about ATMs and cyber crooks installing malware on them's quite incredible...they simply plug a USB drive in reboot the machine boot off usb etc
[19:59] <map> not simply but thats kinda how..no password protection in bios..nothing
[19:59] <map> and they make the machines just give out money lol
[19:59] <daftykins> or they're likely configured with defaults
[19:59] <daftykins> yip
[19:59] <daftykins> don't even need to boot off other devices sometimes
[19:59] <daftykins> just button sequences on the front
[20:00]  * daftykins looks left and right
[20:00] <zmoylan-pi> the ones in germany had usb ports covered with just a few mm of plastic and ports weren't deactivated so it was a beautiful hack to my mind.  atm builder deserved to be sued for that one
[20:00] <daftykins> crikey D:
[20:00] <map> yea
[20:01] <map> thats what i was saying zmoylan-pi they were cutting through plastic
[20:01] <map> connecting usb rebooting etc
[20:01] <map> no bios pass etc crazy stuff
[20:01] <foobarry> topcashback are giving 7.50£ worth of lego cahback
[20:01] <map> the atm malware would say how many notes in the casettes etc
[20:01] <foobarry> so buy 7.99+1.99p&p , get 7.50 back
[20:01] <zmoylan-pi> reminds me of the great scene in sneakers where they encounter the door with the keypad and after a few minutes of conferring he just kicks it in bypassing the super secure lock
[20:02] <map> heh
[20:02] <map> http://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/10/spike-in-malware-attacks-on-aging-atms/
[21:07] <foobarry> christmas present ideas anyone?
[21:07] <SuperEngineer> helicopter
[21:09] <popey> sure, you can buy me anything off this list http://www.amazon.co.uk/registry/wishlist/29FWHGD2GAECA ☻
[21:13] <popey> https://developers.google.com/android/nexus/images
[21:18] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qe9bsidl2fnxca/IMG_20141112_211603.jpg?dl=0
[21:18] <foobarry> popey: you(r kids) like lego, did you see what i mentioned earlier?
[21:18] <popey> no
[21:19] <foobarry> £7.50 off a lego purchase
[21:19] <popey> neat!
[21:19] <popey> my brother went to a lego display in london today
[21:19] <foobarry> topcashback are doing it
[21:19] <popey> http://artofthebrick.co.uk/
[21:19] <foobarry> oh yeah q. expensive i heard
[21:20] <foobarry> few friends have been
[21:20] <map> i want an ipad air
[21:20] <daftykins> map: freedom hater!
[21:20] <map> they had a bus stop made of lego in London last year if anyone remembers:D
[21:20] <foobarry> i/ve just been tryin gto fix dishwasher
[21:20] <foobarry> failed
[21:21] <foobarry> if you're after a good torch popey i can recommend
[21:21] <penguin42> popey: I missed the opening of our local Netto today; apparently they had a huge Lego dog at it
[21:21] <foobarry> http://www.torchdirect.co.uk/professional-torches/led-lenser-police-tech-focus.html
[21:21] <foobarry> i have this, its nice
[21:24] <foobarry> ok , how is this so cheap? http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007B86KLC/ref=wl_it_dp_v_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=29FWHGD2GAECA&coliid=I13V6MLMZ2OGEW&psc=1
[21:30] <SuperEngineer> foobarry, re your dishwasher; have you tried using a mallet?
[21:31] <foobarry> no
[21:31] <SuperEngineer> ah! that's where you went wrong :D
[21:32] <SuperEngineer> [it may not *completely* solve your problem: but it us soooooooooooo satisfaying letting it now who's in charge!
[21:32] <SuperEngineer> *is
[21:42] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: ah the old percussive maintenance
[21:52] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS, ;D
[21:52] <SuperEngineer> yup
[21:54] <foobarry> i like that popey has had a getting things done:priority high in his wishlist since 2007
[21:54] <popey> heheh
[22:16] <diddledan> this is a fun read (after following the link to the block request): https://blocklist.addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/blocked/p428
[22:18] <diddledan> I'm unclear just what exactly stops working with the plugin disabled
[22:18] <diddledan> but meh
[22:18] <diddledan> offtopic, I guess
[22:20] <map> hm
[22:21] <diddledan> I just found it interesting is all
[22:23] <diddledan> in related news, tho, which is actually sort of topicful: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/11/mozilla-releases-firefox-developer-edition
[22:34] <map> chan 4show called bad robots hm could be interesting
[22:35] <zmoylan-pi> the south african air defence demo that went horribly wrong?
[22:36] <shauno> hm, msft open-sourcing chunks of .net is .. perplexing
[22:36] <zmoylan-pi> i think it's desperation to stay relevent
[22:48] <map> thought .nets still popular
[22:48] <map> i dont use it;F
[22:48] <map> :D
[22:51] <diddledan> shauno, link?
[22:51] <diddledan> shauno, I'm betting xamarin will "borrow" some of it
[22:51] <shauno> http://github.com/Microsoft/dotnet
[22:52] <diddledan> patent promise too
[22:53] <shauno> yeah, they've pretty much said so already; http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2014/Nov-12.html
[22:53] <ali1234> the most interestng thing is they are using MIT license, not some MSPL or something
[23:19] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh that's not bad; the only odd thing is the patent promise only seems to be for use as a .net system
[23:20] <ali1234> promises aren't worth anything anyway
[23:20] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh, I'm not sure how that works
[23:29] <penguin42> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1SM813W6H36YA  is wonderful
[23:31] <directhex> penguin42, that's largely irrelevant for now, but will be relevant when they add their runtime to the source tree
[23:32] <directhex> penguin42, basically their patent promise doesn't cover Sun against integrating MS.NET GC/JIT behaviour in Java
[23:34] <penguin42> directhex: But more importantly it doesn't cover you using a part of their code in your own project that's not .net related (if I read it right)
[23:35] <directhex> right.
[23:35] <penguin42> directhex: and for an open source project that's a mess, it means you can't just reuse code
[23:37] <penguin42> directhex: If you had someone working on a JIT could they work on that as well as working on a javascript jit say for fear of anything they might pick up?
[23:37] <directhex> penguin42, you're not covered for non-.net uses, as you say. any end-user apps running on .net are covered, any .net runtimes are. unrelated stuff is not
[23:37] <penguin42> directhex: Right
[23:37] <directhex> you still have the copyright coverage from MIT, but not patent coverage alongside. how much that bothers you is an individual decision
[23:38] <penguin42> directhex: It worries me because MS make a lot of money off open source projects by patent stuff afterwards
[23:39] <penguin42> directhex: and it worries me because someone might reasonably think they can take a chunk of MIT licensed code and use it in random other projects
[23:40] <diddledan> surely if a patent holder releases source code under a permissive license then any uses allowed by that license are inherently patent indemnified
[23:40] <diddledan> it would need testing in court, and IANAL
[23:40] <directhex> diddledan, only on licenses with patent language in
[23:40] <penguin42> diddledan: I don't think so, I think that's why there's the separate patent thing
[23:40] <directhex> diddledan, otherwise copyright & patents aren't the same thing
[23:41] <ali1234> that's the main reason why they made GPL3
[23:41] <diddledan> surely it's implicit thpough
[23:41] <penguin42> diddledan: No, it's not
[23:41] <ali1234> nothing is implicit in a license, that's why they are always 500 pages long
[23:41] <penguin42> diddledan: Hence why people worry about it
[23:42] <diddledan> like "I own X Y and Z. you can use X Y and Z for any purposes without warranty" <-- how is that not a patent grant?
[23:43]  * penguin42 wont claim to know
[23:43] <directhex> it's not "i own x y and z" though
[23:43] <ali1234> that wouldn't even be a valid license
[23:43] <diddledan> well you can't license it without owning it
[23:43] <diddledan> unless the license allows such
[23:44] <diddledan> a license can only be granted by the title holder unless the title holder has divested the right to sublicense
[23:45] <directhex> source code is just source code. when you receive MIT-licensed source code, you have received MIT-licensed source code
[23:45] <diddledan> in this case microsoft is the title holder so their assignment to an MIT license declares that any recipients of microsoft-owned MIT-licensed code is implicitly granted patent immunity
[23:46] <diddledan> it would be different if I then took microsoft's code and modified it
[23:46] <directhex> anything else which may or may not be associated with that source code, such as patents possibly covering that implementation, are distinct. unless the copyright holder explicitly ties them together, e.g. using a license like GPLv3 or Apache 2.0
[23:46] <diddledan> but just usage should be indemnified implicitly
[23:47]  * diddledan gets tied up in knots
[23:47] <diddledan> .. but I want patent immunity for everyone, so I'm going to argue black is green until microsoft and the court system agrees with me!
[23:47] <diddledan> it may be a long night
[23:48] <directhex> diddledan, everyone using the .net source for anything .net related is covered
[23:48] <directhex> anyone using it for things which are not .net related are not. using chunks of that source in something .net related does not neccessarily mean you are in breach of a patent
[23:48] <directhex> er, using it in something *not* .net related
[23:49] <directhex> the point is, patents are complicated
[23:49] <diddledan> I wonder how that would be affected by embedding
[23:49] <diddledan> software patents moreso
[23:49] <directhex> embedding how?
[23:49] <diddledan> like taking the jit and making it a part of your irc client
[23:50] <diddledan> so that your irc client can run .net code without a preinstalled runtime
[23:50] <diddledan> kinda like an embedded scripting host
[23:50] <penguin42> diddledan: That's OK because it becomes 'part of a 'net runtime'
[23:50] <directhex> covered. as long as you implement enough of the class library
[23:51] <diddledan> I guess it depends on semantics in edge cases like that
[23:51] <penguin42> diddledan: However, if you liked one of the libraries in it and found a way to link it against your irc client without any .net involved, then you wouldn't be covered
[23:51] <directhex> "all of the required parts of the mandatory provisions of Standard ECMA-335" means the basic types like string, integer, etc
[23:52] <ali1234> so oracle can use the JIT and GC stuff in java, as long as they also make the java runtime capable of running .net as well?
[23:53] <diddledan> ooh, beastly
[23:53] <diddledan> .net/java hybrid
[23:55] <directhex> ali1234, YES.
[23:55] <directhex> diddledan, we already have a java/.net hybrid
[23:55] <penguin42> ali1234: interesting question; but then if someone was using it and decided they didn't need .net and compiled it out, they'd not be covered?
[23:56] <directhex> correct!
[23:56] <ali1234> unrelated: why can't i have a C compiler that generates jvm/.net bytecode?
[23:56] <directhex> you can. microsoft have one
[23:56] <ali1234> what is it called?
[23:57] <directhex> directhex@desire:/tmp$ javac HelloWorldApp.java
[23:57] <directhex> directhex@desire:/tmp$ ikvmc HelloWorldApp.class
[23:57] <directhex> directhex@desire:/tmp$ mono HelloWorldApp.exe
[23:57] <directhex> Hello World!
[23:57] <directhex> ali1234, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B/CLI
[23:58] <directhex> directhex@desire:/tmp$ rm HelloWorldApp.exe
[23:58] <directhex> directhex@desire:/tmp$ ls HelloWorldApp.*
[23:58] <directhex> HelloWorldApp.class  HelloWorldApp.java
[23:58] <directhex> directhex@desire:/tmp$ mono /usr/lib/ikvm/ikvm.exe HelloWorldApp
[23:58] <directhex> Hello World!
[23:58] <directhex> java on .net :D
[23:58] <popey> Pervert
[23:59] <penguin42> yeh but then if you had a C compiler you could compile your .net implementation in .net
[23:59] <directhex> you think *that's* perverted?