[06:21] <map> damnit just got soakewd walking hoe
[06:21] <map> home
[08:08] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:14]  * zmoylan-pi releases crow from roof to see if it can spot dry land
[08:34] <DJones> zmoylan-pi: You'd be better releasing a seagull, at least it'll feel at home with all the water
[08:51] <awilkins> Anyone know if a factory wipe and install on an Android phone produces better results than an over the air update
[09:10] <DJones> awilkins: Its not something I've thought of, I've only ever done OTA updates, might be worth asking the people in #android
[09:11] <awilkins> Good thinking
[09:16] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:24] <popey> word
[09:26] <davmor2> popey: you so street
[09:26] <popey> you know it
[09:26] <davmor2> morning bigcalm
[09:26] <davmor2> popey: you down wiv d homies
[09:34] <bigcalm> The homeless?
[09:36] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Friday, and happy Loosen Up, Lighten Up Day! :-D
[09:41] <ujjain> anybody knows a good proxy with authenticaiton?
[09:42] <diplo> Squid ?
[09:49] <awilkins> ujjain, Do you mean a proxy that will authenticate for you?
[09:49] <ujjain> uh, yes, squid can do it
[09:49] <ujjain> but an alternative
[09:49] <ujjain> that will need authentication to use as proxy
[09:51] <diplo> I integrated AD with Squid at my last place, they couldn't use the net without being logged into the domain
[09:51] <diplo> But I'm afraid that's all I've ever played with so can;t offer anything else :)
[09:52] <bigcalm> The connection used by cable boxes is the same as used by satellite boxes, yes?
[09:52] <awilkins> I hate explicit proxies with a passion
[09:52] <bigcalm> I'm about to buy a right angle adapter, but want to check 1st
[09:52] <diplo> As in size yes bigcalm
[09:53] <awilkins> And auth-ing proxies
[09:53] <diplo> The cable ones I had were a different design, had a suppressor/filter type thing built into them, where as the sky is a standard coax digi conn
[09:53] <awilkins> On my last office network, you had to auth to get an IP address
[09:53] <awilkins> Therefore they knew all the MAC addresses, they could have had transparent proxies and still audited our web traffic
[09:53] <bigcalm> For £1.45, I'll give it a go :)
[09:53] <awilkins> But Squid on Windows can't do MAC addresses
[09:54] <awilkins> And the ICT dept. were too dumb to install it on Linux.
[09:54] <awilkins> So we were stuck with ISA server and NTLM auth
[09:54] <awilkins> NTLM is a *total* pain in the bum, because huge numbers of apps can't auth that way
[09:55] <awilkins> Browsers are not the only thing that use HTTP/S these days, any network administrator who traps you behind an NTLM proxy is just downright incompetent IMHO
[09:55] <diplo> awilkins, +1
[09:56] <awilkins> I think Eclipse on Windows can do it
[09:56] <awilkins> If the wind is right and the gods are appeased
[09:56] <awilkins> But getting Eclipse on Linux to update or install means you have to start invoking ungodly things like ntlmaps or using an SSH tunnel as a SOCKS 4 proxy
[09:57] <awilkins> When Ubuntu One was still a thing it didn't even use the system proxy settings....
[09:58]  * awilkins still thinks Ubuntu needs a single client-side proxy that knows how to do NTLM auth and everything else and will act as proxy for all the other things
[09:58] <Laney> cool, get to coding
[09:58] <awilkins> e.g. apps that don't have a Javascript runtime, can't parse a PAC script
[09:59] <awilkins> IF you set the system proxy to a PAC script, it just passes the URI to any app that asks for the proxy setting
[09:59] <awilkins> Rather than parsing the script and passing the results
[09:59] <awilkins> So only browsers and a few other oddities can use a proxy that's a PAC script
[10:00] <awilkins> It's a barrier to Linux desktop adoption in the enterprise
[10:00] <awilkins> Because you have to fiddle to get it to work in common office network environments
[10:00]  * awilkins is now happily in control of his office network environment and occasionally has to reach under his desk to reboot it
[10:01] <bigcalm> I don't know if I want to shake my fist at the V Box for it's orientation of the scart socket or the manufacturers for not making a 270deg right angled scart cable
[10:02] <diplo> Scart?!?!?!?!
[10:02] <diplo> :)
[10:02] <bigcalm> diplo: yep. The VirginMedia V Box doesn't have HDMI out, only scart
[10:02] <bigcalm> Quite a disappointment, but essentially free to me
[10:03] <diplo> Really, been a fair few years since I've been with Virgin
[10:04] <bigcalm> I doubt that they give out this box to new customers now.
[10:07] <bigcalm> Oh flip: Standard Delivery 7 - 23 days
[10:07] <diplo> This for the coax plug ?
[10:07] <bigcalm> Guess I'm in no rush for the 270deg HDMI  adaptor
[10:08] <bigcalm> diplo: the right angle coax adapter is shipped from the UK
[10:09] <diplo> ah right
[10:12] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:56] <davmor2> JamesTait: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman, walk into a bar, bartender says "What is this some sort of joke?"
[10:57] <davmor2> bigcalm: yes only the hd boxes have hdmi, as they are the only ones that produce hd images :P
[10:57] <JamesTait> davmor2, http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot
[10:59] <davmor2> JamesTait: what it's a nice joke, it's clean, and you smiled :P so it lightened your day :)
[10:59] <JamesTait> davmor2, I won't dispute any of that. ;)
[11:05] <popey> I see davmor2 has broken out the christmas crackers a bit early.
[11:07] <davmor2> popey: well it was that or the Nuns and the blindman
[11:09] <bigcalm> This is why right angle adaptors are needed: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/bshrb5yhhya1slg/AADOVDkxcB-seDuJcc-RJc2Ga
[11:10] <bigcalm> Main culprits are the very stiff coax cable and HDMI cable
[11:32] <nigelb> `
[11:59] <ujjain> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Under-Armour-Original-Boxerjock-Extented/dp/B005CR5GK0 WARNING NUDE MAN, can anybody see how many boxer shorts there are?
[11:59] <ujjain> ah, just 1 i think
[12:19] <ujjain> is buying new clothes from ebay weird?
[12:21] <foobarry> used clothes?
[12:22] <ujjain> new cltohes
[12:22] <ujjain> not used
[12:23] <foobarry> no, ebay is just a shop innit
[12:23] <ujjain> also, a recruiter sends me a message if I want to be a Linux SME, what is that?
[12:23] <ujjain> innit!
[12:23] <ujjain> yeah, I guess
[12:41] <davmor2> ujjain: to quote czajkowski "Self Made Eejit" at a guess ;)
[12:41]  * czajkowski peers at davmor2 
[12:42] <davmor2> czajkowski: don't tell me I spelt Eejit wrong?  I was just guessing what SME stood for :)
[12:48] <davmor2> ujjain: in reality it is Linux Small to Medium Enterprise :)
[13:29] <ujjain> ahhhh
[13:29] <ujjain> Small to Medium Enterprise, interesting
[13:30] <foobarry> http://io9.com/notepad-illusions-look-like-3d-sculptures-but-theyre-2-1657908192?utm_content=buffer38622&utm_medium=social&utm_source=plus.google.com&utm_campaign=buffer
[13:30] <ujjain> it says something else here http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sme&defid=6279133
[13:30] <foobarry> cute
[13:32] <ujjain> I would like to print that out
[13:33] <ujjain> "Pocket Money Loans" a new loan service for kids, has opened in London < haha :D
[13:33] <ujjain> http://www.pocketmoneyloans.com/
[13:33] <foobarry> oh dear
[13:34] <ujjain>  We offer quick, cheap* loans to kids aged 3+ at competitive rates**. Whatever you need it for, Pocket Money Loans allow you to live beyond your means!
[13:34] <foobarry> Representative example Amount of credit: £10 for 18 days. Interest: £24.65. Interest rate: 246%pa (fixed).Transmission fee: £5.50. Total repayment of: £40.15 plus late payment charge of £20 rolled over for next 18 days plus interest
[13:34] <foobarry> i think its a joke
[13:34] <christel> isnt that that slight bizarre art installation in finsbury park?
[13:34] <christel> well, i say "art"
[13:34] <christel> i am sure there was something about it on bbc news the other week
[13:34] <MartijnV1S> isnt most "art" these days
[13:34] <foobarry>  on until we take you for everything you have and you lay awake at night with the stress boiling in your veins, g
[13:34] <foobarry> yes its "satire"
[13:35] <ujjain> :D
[13:35] <penguin42> oh wow, that's very nicely done
[14:26] <diddledan> morning
[14:26] <daftykins> heya
[14:26] <daftykins> just bought two .je domains (the island of Jersey beside me) and two .gg domains for a client, 12 months only - £332.
[14:26] <diddledan> wow
[14:27] <diddledan> that's expensive
[14:27] <daftykins> granted their price halves for renewal vs. register, but ugh
[14:28] <daftykins> yeah i've been meaning to kick a local politician to ask why they allow this
[14:28] <diddledan> is that each or for all four?
[14:28] <daftykins> all four
[14:28] <diddledan> still expensive
[14:28] <daftykins> http://www.mtgsy.net/domains/domain_pricelist.php
[14:29] <daftykins> .co.gg is £60 reg and £29 renewal, but .gg is £83 and £47 respectively
[14:29] <diddledan> jee, and I thought my .at was expensive at approx 20€
[14:30] <diddledan> (it's a vanity)
[14:30] <daftykins> :D
[14:31] <diddledan> I have it as my shorturl - go.bwlh.at - my "company" is "Bowl Hat" so it's about the shortest url I could get that still makes sense
[14:31] <daftykins> i've been given a free 40GB Intel V-Series SSD :D
[14:31] <diddledan> lucky
[14:31] <daftykins> haha nice one :D
[14:36] <awilkins> Groovy
[14:36] <awilkins> Make it into a bcache volume or something
[14:36] <daftykins> i've got one already in my little HTPC and know of somewhere else where there's one spare
[14:36] <daftykins> not a *clue* what use they could be though
[14:36] <awilkins> bcache!
[14:36] <daftykins> all of my systems (server, laptop, desktop) are already SSD based
[14:37] <awilkins> I have a 32GB mSATA in my laptop
[14:37] <awilkins> Hmm
[14:37] <daftykins> what does that do? :P
[14:37] <daftykins> also i don't run a desktop Linux
[14:37]  * daftykins ducks
[14:37] <awilkins> Backing cache for a larger piece of spinning rust
[14:37] <daftykins> ah
[14:37] <daftykins> yeah no, zero benefit for me :)
[14:37] <awilkins> Laptop has 32GB mSATA + 750 GB of rust
[14:39] <daftykins> ah i guess that's one of the intel RST for Windows setup ones
[14:39] <awilkins> Yes
[14:39] <awilkins> Laptop arrived with RST configured
[14:39] <daftykins> glad to hear Loonix can actually do something with it
[14:39] <awilkins> Yeah, it is after all, just another drive
[14:39] <daftykins> i keep seeing people just installing the OS to the SSDs then running out of space :D
[14:39] <awilkins> Once you destroy the RAID 0 volume on it, it's a normal drive
[14:40] <daftykins> yeah, used them pretty extensively
[14:40] <daftykins> a friend had bought a windows 8 asus ultrabook which was the very first one i used
[14:40] <awilkins> Even OS on the SSD and home folder on the rust would have been pretty cool
[14:40] <daftykins> i hadn't slept and had to learn how to do EFI installs of windows XD
[14:40] <daftykins> yeah
[14:41] <daftykins> what i tend to say is to symlink ~/$Media_folder_here onto the HDD, so that . files can remain on the SSD too, keeping apps fast
[14:41] <daftykins> so e.g. your browser profiles and much more don't get bogged down
[14:41] <daftykins> if you put the whole /home on mechanical, it wouldn't be as great i suspect
[14:44] <awilkins> Yeah, hence bcache - no longer have to think about it
[14:44] <awilkins> Commonly access blocks end up on the SSD, done
[14:45] <hexxeh> bcache does in software what seagate does in hardware
[14:45] <hexxeh> a co-worker managed to get ramdisk bcache working, for VM use
[14:46] <daftykins> ooh funky
[14:46] <awilkins> Wait, does it dedupe?
[14:46] <daftykins> shame my gear is all DDR2 and RAM constrained :(
[14:49] <diddledan> seagates are smaller on the SSD part tho
[14:49] <diddledan> a 1TB comes with 8GB SSD?
[14:49] <daftykins> yep
[14:50] <daftykins> can't wait for 3D NAND to become mainstream
[14:50] <daftykins> so much better than MLC and TLC
[14:50] <diddledan> it obviously helps but a dedicated ssd is probably going to be better IMO
[14:51] <daftykins> definitely, depends if you want capacity in the mobile front i guess
[14:51] <daftykins> i never did, but then the Crucial MX100 512GB is so cheap now, i got one anyway XD
[14:51] <diddledan> yeah I find that 256GB per OS is kinda the minimum I can work with these days
[14:52] <diddledan> hence why I upgraded my macbook pro to a 512GB SSD
[14:52] <diddledan> half is osx and the other is ubuntu
[14:53] <daftykins> *nod*
[14:53] <hexxeh> will get 1T SSD and no rust in my next PC. whenever that ends up happening. sigh
[14:53] <daftykins> i put my old 256GB in here as my steam cache drive, but damn it filled fast :D
[14:53] <daftykins> all these free origin/steam titles of late (that've all been utterly rubbish)
[14:53] <diddledan> I need to upgrade the hdd in my work laptop - it's dog slow at bootup
[14:54] <daftykins> (Metro 2033, dragon age origins, i'm looking at you)
[14:54] <diddledan> takes about 10 minutes before it's usable
[14:54] <daftykins> eww
[14:54] <daftykins> OS?
[14:54] <diddledan> ubuntu or windows - both as bad as eachother
[14:54] <hexxeh> right now i have os on ssd, home on rust
[14:55] <diddledan> hexxeh, that's how I like to run when I have an hdd available
[14:55] <hexxeh> it sucks for steam tho
[14:55] <diddledan> I still worry about ssd writecycles though I don't suppose it's a valid concern these days
[14:56] <daftykins> it's easy to get paranoid about that, yeah
[15:03] <diddledan> I need chocolate
[15:03] <diddledan> I've re-discovered skittles, too
[15:03] <daftykins> uh-oh
[15:03] <daftykins> slippery slope
[15:04] <diddledan> skittles are like crack
[15:04] <diddledan> you need ever more and it leads to the hard stuff
[15:04] <foobarry> samsung just gave me £30 \o/
[15:05] <diddledan> though I've not worked out what "the hard stuff" is yet. when I do, I'll certainly give it a go
[15:05] <diddledan> foobarry, ?
[15:05] <diddledan> why they do dat?
[15:05] <foobarry> part of their market research thing
[15:06] <diddledan> wow
[15:06] <foobarry> i foten get 10-15 a month from them
[15:06] <foobarry> so giving my opinion about new gimmick
[15:07] <foobarry> ^so^for
[15:27] <penguin42> diddledan: I don't know; I've lost 2 (low end SSDs) at less than 6 months old, and I know someone whose Chrome Pixel has just died and he thinks that's the (soldered in) SSD; so SSDs are lovely and fast and generally last OK, but I think the worry is still worth it
[15:28] <diddledan> hmm
[15:28] <bigcalm> Can anybody recommend a sound bar that will work with a linux desktop? Tempted to put one on my office wall
[15:28] <daftykins> don't they tend to have anlogue outputs 0o
[15:28] <daftykins> or inputs, rather
[15:29] <bigcalm>  daftykins: no idea, the amazon details appear to concentrate on the wireless options
[15:29] <daftykins> ugh
[15:29] <daftykins> use manufacturer specs instead, amazon is tripe for such details
[15:30] <bigcalm> Possible option: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-HW-F350-inch-Soundbar-Sound/dp/B00BYWFB16
[15:36] <bigcalm> Now that I live in a detached house, it would be nice to have some decent sound in my office (while my wife is at work of course)
[15:36]  * bigcalm added it to his wish list
[15:37] <daftykins> yeah that's not even clear on there how it connects XD
[15:37] <penguin42> bigcalm: Yes, that is the primary advantage of a detached, and similarly from not having to deal with the neighbours doing the same
[15:37] <daftykins> though being paired up with an optical cable is a clue
[15:40] <daftykins> i doubt most would have optical out on their PCs, it's always a must for the onboard audio for my purchases
[15:40] <daftykins> although i'm using digital coaxial at the moment 0o
[15:42] <bigcalm> My Dell Alienware X51 has an optical socket
[15:42] <popey> yeah, my desktop has optical out too
[15:42]  * bigcalm goes to get the sittingroom stereo to see if it works
[15:42] <popey> tempting!
[15:42]  * penguin42 has never used optical audio, but their again my audio choices are pretty basic
[15:43] <Dave2> My desktop machine has TWO optical sockets
[15:43] <Dave2> both work
[15:43] <Dave2> well, it actually has 4
[15:43] <Dave2> 2 sets of.
[15:43] <daftykins> 0o
[15:43] <daftykins> bigcalm: alienware :( for shame
[15:44] <bigcalm> daftykins: work bought it for me
[15:48] <bigcalm> Optical works :D
[15:49] <daftykins> my PC is so old i only get proper surround output with XP :( 7 has only ever treated it as stereo
[15:49] <daftykins> bitstreamed formats still work of course
[15:49] <daftykins> but then optical is only two channel, amusingly
[15:51] <popey> i miss having loud speakers on my pc
[15:51] <popey> also tempted to get a sound bar for the new telly in the lounge
[15:52] <bigcalm> Tempted to buy 2 sound bars. One for my office and one to replace the hi-fi in the sittingroom
[15:52] <daftykins> some friends were trying to tell me that they got a true '3D' sound effect from one in a shop the other day
[15:52] <bigcalm> The hi-fi is so broken that it only acts as an amplifier now
[15:53] <daftykins> haha
[15:53] <diddledan> nectar (sainsbury's third-party loyalty scheme) have emailed me to tell me that they're going to email me
[15:53] <daftykins> my parents have managed to murder the optical drives in a lot of my old micro component ones
[15:53] <daftykins> turning them into radios =|
[15:53] <daftykins> diddledan: nice!
[15:53] <diddledan> "Make sure you keep an eye out for your Points Update in your inbox next week."
[15:54] <bigcalm> Cassette and CD are both broken. I think that the MiniDisk might still work though
[15:54] <diddledan> bigcalm, yeah but who uses minidisk?
[15:54] <daftykins> minidisc \o/
[15:54] <daftykins> i gave mine all away :(
[15:54] <diddledan> who _ever_ used minidisk?
[15:54] <daftykins> i did
[15:54] <daftykins> i'm that guy!
[15:54] <daftykins> :D
[15:54] <diddledan> lol
[15:55] <daftykins> it was actually a brilliant portable player medium pre-MP3-players in the ~2000 school time era for me
[15:55] <diddledan> minidisk disd as well as the followup UMD
[15:55] <diddledan> did*
[15:55] <daftykins> lots of school mates got them, and i had two as well
[15:55] <daftykins> that was more the format for the PSP and films though right?
[15:55] <daftykins> so it wasn't quite the same thing
[15:55] <diddledan> yup
[15:56] <diddledan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Media_Disc
[15:56] <penguin42> it's a shame they at one point had minidisk data drives for an unholy price too late; they could have been a success but then Zip came along
[15:57] <daftykins> penguin42: oh wow, did not know - i'd imagine they were quite low capacity given i think all audio formats involved compression though, no?
[15:57] <daftykins> my later generation one supported long-play modes
[15:57] <daftykins> ATRAC, that was the one
[15:58] <penguin42> daftykins: Wikipedia says 140MB in early 90's
[15:58] <daftykins> ah-har
[15:59] <penguin42> daftykins: It was at about the same time as Zip drives and ZIps were 100MB
[15:59] <daftykins> is it my warped perception, or do optical formats always lag behind their media-based introduction, when it comes to drives in computers?
[15:59] <penguin42> but they were dirt cheap
[16:01] <daftykins> alright, time to try out lucozade "cloudy lemonade" 0o
[16:03] <diddledan> o_O
[16:05] <daftykins> silly question of the day, if a laptop mains adapter is plugged in but not at the end - do you think it consumes anything 0o
[16:05] <foobarry> yes a little bit
[16:05] <daftykins> i guess it's running the caps a bit isn't it
[16:05] <foobarry> seems to remain warm innit
[16:05] <foobarry> rather low though
[16:06] <foobarry> my mobile charger makes a high pitched noise
[16:06] <daftykins> hrmm anyone know of an SSD secure erase prog available in ubuntu these days?
[16:07] <daftykins> yeah on some stag do trip to Brighton a bit ago, a mate plugged in his amazon charger into a socket about my head in the hostel - ugh that was annoying :>
[16:07] <penguin42> daftykins: The right way to do an SSD erase is to use secure erase using hdparm
[16:08] <daftykins> ah yes that should have it, ty sir
[16:08] <penguin42> daftykins: https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase
[16:08] <bigcalm> Horribly tempted to buy a sound bar from Tesco tomorrow
[16:08] <bigcalm> Grr
[16:08] <daftykins> hrmm mind you this HP craptop has an nvidia chipset i think, they tend to block the commands
[16:08] <penguin42> daftykins: Of course you don't actually know whether it's really wiped everything
[16:09] <daftykins> yeah :D it's just a friends drive though so not mission critical thankfully
[16:09] <penguin42> right, so just their credit card details and porn
[16:09] <diddledan> porn!
[16:09] <diddledan> copy that off first
[16:10] <foobarry> i have had more joy deleting the stuff in the past
[16:10] <diddledan> sorry, family friendly. family friendly. family friendly.
[16:10] <daftykins> penguin42: the finest of all \o/
[16:10]  * diddledan chants while rocking slightly back-and-forth
[16:10] <foobarry> and deleting dubiously acquired mp3 libraries stored onthe network drive
[16:11] <daftykins> now if only this HP heap would boot 14.04 in a timely fashion
[16:11] <daftykins> hah GPU lockup from nouveau, nice
[16:12] <diddledan> is it an optimus?
[16:13] <daftykins> nah
[16:13] <daftykins> 'failed to idle channel'
[16:13] <daftykins> ancient HP with AMD Athlon X2 laptop
[16:14] <daftykins> it was being run into the ground approaching a thermal death before i took it apart and degunked it
[16:14] <daftykins> it was too late for the optical drive though
[16:15] <foobarry> i was using the terminal only on a asus apsire revo and nouveau hung and crashed on me
[16:15] <foobarry> had to turn off pc
[16:15] <foobarry> that was this morning \o/
[16:15] <daftykins> haha, yeah i used this thing to pull off data from a windows HDD for a friend the other day
[16:15] <daftykins> had to do everything CLI based as X was being really unhappy
[16:15] <daftykins> must've looked like genius to them :(
[16:15] <foobarry> or a hacker
[16:15] <foobarry> in green text
[16:16] <daftykins> funny part is i'm totally comfortable with drive mounts and so on, but i don't have the slightest clue of command line searching :D
[16:16] <daftykins> though it wasn't relevant as i just went into the docs folder naturally
[16:16] <daftykins> ooh now we have a BUG: soft lockup CPU#0 stuck for 22s
[16:17] <daftykins> truthfully, unity makes ubuntu useless for the kinds of live session tasks i perform
[16:17] <daftykins> need a basic 2D only 32-bit build really
[16:17] <penguin42> daftykins: That's normally the fallout from something else - like your graphics driver
[16:17] <daftykins> yeah, it was labelled Xorg
[16:17] <daftykins> so definitely part and parcel
[16:18] <daftykins> uh-oh my cat is in investigate mode
[16:18] <daftykins> huzzah reboot and X is up with only minor corruption
[16:18] <diddledan> kittycuddle!
[16:19] <daftykins> she's a right kneader, super sharp claws :(
[16:19] <diddledan> :-(
[16:21] <daftykins> ugh why has the live session prompted me for user
[16:21] <daftykins> (just ran a sleep)
[16:22] <daftykins> ubuntu and blank
[16:23] <daftykins> yay sleep unfroze it \o/
[16:25] <daftykins> 19 seconds to secure erase a 40GB :D
[16:26] <foobarry> hmm
[16:26] <penguin42> daftykins: Yeh, it does make you wonder if it's really all there
[16:26] <foobarry> "secure erase"
[16:26] <foobarry> secure erase involves writing data
[16:26] <penguin42> daftykins: I ran a dd on it after that I think for good luck
[16:26] <daftykins> penguin42: well, all it's really got to do is tell the controller to stop tracking the allocations
[16:26] <daftykins> foobarry: nope
[16:27] <daftykins> not for an SSD
[16:27] <penguin42> daftykins: No, I think secure erase is supposed to tell the flash to actually wipe the data
[16:27] <daftykins> oh like randomise every cell too? hrmm
[16:27] <foobarry> tells the aroms to look that way -->
[16:28] <penguin42> daftykins: Well, not sure about randomise, but I assume you can tell a flash chip to do a block erase or something ?
[16:28] <daftykins> thing is the data is irretrievable once you tell a controller to forget its' table of cells mapped to LBAs
[16:28] <penguin42> irretrivable to who?
[16:29] <daftykins> it's kinda like giving someone a single disk of a multi disk RAID
[16:29] <daftykins> anyone i should think, because the original consecutive LBAs are no longer known
[16:29] <daftykins> and all electrons are let out of the logic gates, so there's no data to read
[16:29] <penguin42> if it was just losing the block tracking I bet you could extract useful chunks
[16:30] <ali1234> so what?
[16:30] <daftykins> if you read data by assessing voltages across gates though, there are no longer electrons present to portray any data
[16:30] <ali1234> the pages on flash are in the kilobyte range
[16:30] <ali1234> that means an entire email fits on one page
[16:30] <ali1234> it doesn't matter if you wipe the LBAs
[16:31] <penguin42> and you can probably fit together blocks to find consistent results for things like jpegs
[16:31] <ali1234> easily
[16:31] <daftykins> lol that laptop has just started rapidly blinking the display
[16:32] <penguin42>  'my mind...'
[16:32] <daftykins> i'm confused as to how you believe you could retrieve data from totally blanked NAND?
[16:32] <ali1234> you can't
[16:32] <ali1234> that isn't what you said though
[16:32] <penguin42> daftykins: not from totally blanked, but you originally said just losing the tracking info from the controller
[16:33] <daftykins> oh right from that part
[16:33] <daftykins> ok, that's fair
[16:33] <daftykins> lol @ hdparm referring to 'mdma' modes
[16:34] <diddledan> deletion in nand is not technically possible - you can mimic it by having cells that can be written to more than once by rearranging the connections but every write doesn't overwrite the original data
[16:35] <daftykins> not writes, but a flash lets all the electrons out
[16:35] <diddledan> so dd won't do squat to scupper a forensic
[16:35] <ali1234> you mean overwriting
[16:35] <ali1234> nand is erased at higher voltages than writing
[16:35] <diddledan> all dd will do is reduce the lifespan of the drive
[16:35] <penguin42> diddledan: dd forces the controller to perform erases on the blocks before it does the writes
[16:36] <daftykins> you'd have to write to all the LBAs a little over once, to consume the spare area too, i should think
[16:36] <ali1234> the spare area is only used in the event of errors
[16:36] <daftykins> not true in every implementation i believe, some use it for garbage collection
[16:36] <diddledan> penguin42, that's what TRIM does without reducing the lifespan
[16:36] <daftykins> so that might be controller dependant
[16:36] <penguin42> diddledan: Well, there's no guarantee TRIM will cause it to do the erase
[16:37] <ali1234> no, trim notifies the controller when the filesystem has unallocated blocks
[16:37] <diddledan> penguin42, not immediately, no
[16:37] <penguin42> diddledan: And if your interest is ensuring your data isn't on the drive, TRIM is thus useless
[16:37] <ali1234> trim reduces fragmentation
[16:38] <ali1234> except it isn't really fragmentation any more, it's lookup-table clogging instead
[16:38] <penguin42> (of course the easier answer to this is that you should have encrypted the drive and then it's dead easy to wipe the key)
[16:38] <daftykins> lol - https://www.dropbox.com/s/f58nti2qscuj9dv/IMG_20141114_163717.jpg?dl=0
[16:38] <diddledan> at work we use percussive-erase
[16:38] <daftykins> s/erase/access blocking/ ;)
[16:39] <diddledan> we have a special device which we use
[16:39] <diddledan> I believe the layman refers to it as "whacking it with a heavy hammer"
[16:42] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ae4t0a52smshfss/mischiefupdate.png?dl=0
[16:42] <daftykins> where's the cat gone 0o
[16:43] <diddledan> daftykins, is that your terminal?
[16:43] <daftykins> haha, i think it was the craptop with nouveau issues trying to screensaver
[16:43] <diddledan> it looks like there's a small issue, but it's unclear
[16:43] <daftykins> :D
[16:54] <ali1234> geary is looking pretty good these days
[16:54] <ali1234> and fast too
[16:54] <daftykins> what's that?
[16:54] <ali1234> the new email client
[16:54] <ali1234> well, it's not new any more
[16:54] <daftykins> upon what? :)
[16:55] <ali1234> windows/mac/linux?
[16:55] <daftykins> ah
[16:55] <daftykins> i remember mail clients.
[16:55] <ali1234> i was just reading about google inbox
[16:56] <ali1234> so i figured i better find a plan b in case they roll that out to everyone
[16:56] <daftykins> i figured it's a separate app
[16:56] <daftykins> hope it stays that way
[16:56] <Myrtti> Google Inbox gives me the sads
[16:56] <ali1234> it is, a separate app that runs in a browser
[16:57] <ali1234> i mean it looks okay on a phone. the problem is the desktop version is just a giant phone app
[16:57] <Myrtti> a tip from a friendly Googler is that you're supposed to leave feedback, one issue per feedback
[16:57] <Myrtti> they'll do a quantitative collection of keywords
[16:57] <ali1234> i don't have an invite yet
[16:58] <daftykins> i turned off all that priority inbox crap when they brought that out too
[16:58] <daftykins> and avoid 'Hangouts'
[16:58] <Myrtti> I've already whined about lack of signatures, lack of defining which email address to send from, lack of notification configuration on Android, lack of easy filter management, lack of bundle unread numbers, and lack of configurability of the "Done" function
[16:59] <Myrtti> I love all that, they all help in my Inbox 0 obsession
[16:59] <daftykins> i'm not fond of gimmicks
[17:01] <ali1234> wow, in geary you can watch the "all mail" count change in real time
[17:55] <diddledan> https://twitter.com/andigutmans/status/533311231533547520/photo/1
[17:55] <diddledan> funny
[17:56] <diddledan> I occasionally pop humour into a commit message in the hopes that I might make someone giggle further-down-the-line
[17:57] <daftykins> :D
[17:57] <penguin42> haha nice
[18:33] <diddledan> hornet's nest? http://www.jonobacon.org/2014/11/14/ubuntu-governance-reboot/
[18:35] <diddledan> it's certainly a good goal, but I have no experience of the councils first-hand so I'm not the right person to comprehend the situation - interesting though
[20:34] <brobostigon> does anyone know much about openpgp smart cards, please.
[22:03] <diddledan> brobostigon, I'd like to investigate those, too at some point
[22:04] <brobostigon> diddledan: ok, cool,
[22:21] <dutchie> who's good for hard disks nowadays?
[22:21] <dutchie> (manufacturer wise)
[22:21] <daftykins> go by warranty length i say
[22:21] <daftykins> what's the 1) form factor? 2) capacity? 3) use-case?
[22:22] <dutchie> 3.5", >= 2T, storing videos/music
[22:22] <daftykins> 24/7 operation or does it go off a lot?
[22:22] <diddledan> I always go western dig
[22:22] <daftykins> diddledan: +1
[22:23] <dutchie> err
[22:23] <dutchie> probably 24/7
[22:23] <daftykins> WD Red then i'd say
[22:23] <diddledan> +1
[22:23] <dutchie> what does "red" mean?
[22:23] <daftykins> 3 year warranty standard, you can pay about £5 to add another year via certificates
[22:23] <daftykins> it's the model line
[22:24] <daftykins> WD's drives are colour coded by usage
[22:24] <daftykins> i got a few cheap from amazon UK not long ago :)
[22:24] <diddledan> red is designed for 24/7 potentially in a raid alongside several others
[22:24] <diddledan> it's effectively enterprise for consumers
[22:25] <diddledan> I think they rate them as suitable for up-to 6 in a single housing with no ill effects from vibration and noise
[22:25] <diddledan> electronic noise that is
[22:26] <dutchie> that's nice
[22:26] <diddledan> I don't touch the greenies if I can help it
[22:27] <diddledan> blue is ok, for a lappy IMO
[22:27] <diddledan> black in a desktop, and red in a NAS
[22:27] <diddledan> or red in a server of any kind really
[22:27] <daftykins> yip nice 5 year warranty default on a black
[22:29] <dutchie> thanks guys
[22:39] <DJones> Watch out all of you who are doingsupport for Microsoft networks, you've got competition http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30054140
[22:44] <zmoylan-pi> you see these news stories every few years and you wonder if it's the parents hothousing the poor kids into it
[22:46] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: my sentiments exactly
[22:47] <zmoylan-pi> then again that's probably what gave us the music of mozart
[22:49] <daftykins> "and maybe son, if you study for this next module i'll let you see your teddy bear again!"
[22:50] <m0nkey_> Anyone spot the computer joke? "but in Ayan's case he has _cached_ this opportunity"
[22:53] <daftykins> no i must say that one flew by, much like that boy's childhood ;)
[22:57] <diddledan> the microsoft certifications are mind-numbing
[22:57] <diddledan> the material assumes you don't have a clue
[22:58] <diddledan> i.e. it's dumbed down and explains the simplest of concepts that a 5yo would understand. oh yeah.
[22:58] <diddledan> it's mostly training to become a parrot
[22:59] <daftykins> i don't even know what the content is like
[22:59] <daftykins> in terms of topics
[22:59] <daftykins> mostly newbie clicking around i'd suspect? :>
[22:59] <diddledan> doesn't actually tell you anything about the concepts, but instead "click this button. well done. you can now type a name and there's a magical 'user' on the network"
[22:59] <awilkins_> nick CMDR_Barnowl
[23:00] <diddledan> users are these magical things that exist "in the network"
[23:01] <diddledan> it doesn't actually explain any of the technical stuff. just how to click buttons
[23:02] <diddledan> also, don't trust A+ or N+ certs. they're even worse
[23:02] <diddledan> taking your computer to someone who claims boldly that they're A+ certified doesn't mean squat. so he can name the major blocks inside a laser printer. that doesn't mean he knows how to fix it when it breaks
[23:03] <daftykins> :D
[23:03] <diddledan> hint, there's 5 major blocks inside a laser printer. such as "roller" and "fuser"
[23:03] <daftykins> figured as much
[23:03] <daftykins> i was in class late one day in my A-Level level ICT course at a college when the lecturer asked me to give him some common desktop resolutions for his A+ class he was about to take
[23:04] <daftykins> by take i mean teach
[23:04] <diddledan> how about "I will turn the desktop off every night to save power"?
[23:04] <diddledan> that's going to be my desktop resolution from now on
[23:04] <daftykins> eh?
[23:04] <daftykins> :P
[23:06] <diddledan> that's a good example actually - just what constitutes a "common resolution"? that windows will offer the option? that it's supported by the bulk of monitors? do they want widescreen or 4:3?
[23:06] <diddledan> and if widescreen does that mean 16:9 or 16:10?
[23:06] <daftykins> ;)
[23:07] <daftykins> it was about 2002/3 at the time so LCDs hadn't really become widespread yet
[23:07] <directhex> windows will offer 4:3 modes only, if your monitor doesn't present valid EDID, afaik
[23:07] <directhex> e.g. in a VM with no driver for the GPU
[23:07] <daftykins> yip
[23:08] <daftykins> other than doing a degree it's a little concerning to think i've done very little since then, over 10 years ago D:
[23:09] <diddledan> I'm lucky to have zero IT qualifications :-p
[23:09] <zmoylan-pi> what's the standard res of atm's? they're fairly common :-)
[23:09] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi, they all run on XP IIRC
[23:11] <diddledan> I expect they're runing 320x240 screens or maybe the extra graphical ones running 640x480 (retina!)
[23:11] <daftykins> XP embedded *shudder*
[23:11] <daftykins> lol retina, more like multi-cone
[23:11] <daftykins> (if colour)
[23:13] <diddledan> grr @ ie9
[23:13] <diddledan> I have a padding on <body> and an element absolutely positioned inside that padded area which isn't renered in IE
[23:13] <diddledan> IE9
[23:14] <diddledan> moving it so that part of it is inside the non-padded area and it shows up
[23:14] <diddledan> including bits that are in the padded area
[23:15] <daftykins> web dev must be such fun ;D
[23:18] <diddledan> ooooohhhh
[23:18] <diddledan> damned IE
[23:19] <diddledan> it's because a parent elephant uses an IE-specific feature to generate a gradient that other browsers can do normally
[23:20] <daftykins> :|
[23:20] <daftykins> diddledan: do you game much?
[23:20] <daftykins> i see the earlier Far Cry games are £7.50 on Steam today
[23:21] <directhex> note: far cry 4 is not on steam
[23:21] <diddledan> I wish I could say yes, but I never get a round tuit
[23:21] <daftykins> directhex: it is a shame the world can't refuse to buy ubisoft products from now on
[23:22] <diddledan> speaking of games. just what exactly is all this gamergate business?
[23:22] <daftykins> oh lordy please no
[23:22] <directhex> oy.
[23:22] <daftykins> i don't know and i don't even want to see a convo about it
[23:22] <daftykins> D:
[23:22] <directhex> you really want to open that can of bears?
[23:23] <diddledan> I don't know until I know what the problem is
[23:23] <directhex> i should point out before answering that i am biased on this topic, and am the proud owner of a very limited edition anti-gamergate t-shirt
[23:23]  * daftykins holds a chloroform rag over diddledan's mouth ("does this smell funny to you?") and drags him off to a chair in the corner, to forget he ever asked
[23:23] <diddledan> lol
[23:23] <diddledan> daftykins, you been watching mrs brown?!
[23:24] <daftykins> i don't use broadcast TV sir
[23:24] <diddledan> doesn't have to have been via broadcast - coulda been streamied or downloaded
[23:25] <directhex> gamergate is a self-identified group, coalesced around a hashtag (but found in other online places like reddit & 8chan). they have no clear goals, methods, desires, rules, regulations, membership requirements, etc. they just are.
[23:25] <daftykins> true, i intended just then to add "nor do i obtain any current or recent British TV" :)
[23:25] <zmoylan-pi> think of anonmous gone feral
[23:25] <zmoylan-pi> *anonymous
[23:26] <diddledan> so what's the issue with them?
[23:26] <diddledan> sorry, I should stop asking
[23:27] <diddledan> e.g. I saw a vid by Felicia "The Guild" Day about how she saw a pair of dudes in gamer tees and crossed over the road in case they weren't friendly - what is it that has her scared?
[23:28] <directhex> the hashtag started as a new name for an existing online "thing", "the quinnspiracy". 4chan attacking an indie game dev for being a dirty slut because her ex said she was & the world imploded.
[23:28] <zmoylan-pi> they thought that a female game reviewer having a brief relationship with a manager at a gaming comany was some sort of conspiracy and started threatening her
[23:29] <directhex> female game developer, and writer for a gaming site. but not far off, zmoylan-pi
[23:30] <zmoylan-pi> sorry, my bad.  trying to avoid the bile and nastiness that spews around the whole story
[23:30] <directhex> it didn't even really start with the quinnspiracy. that was just an event on a timeline
[23:31] <directhex> it also didn't start with "tropes vs women", 2 years ago. that was also just an event on a timeline
[23:31] <directhex> our story really goes back to 1984.
[23:31] <diddledan> dang
[23:32] <directhex> in 1984, the home computer revolution (i.e. spectrum, commodore, etc) were advertised on TV for xmas. and every single ad was gendered. in 1983, computers were for boys & girls alike. in 1984, they were for boys only. the rate at which young women were enrolling in computer science degrees dropped off & has never recovered in 30 years.
[23:33] <directhex> and since the home computer revolution was also about games, it cemented the idea of games being for boys only.
[23:35]  * zmoylan-pi remembers the hulabaloo over barbarian and game over advertising from back then
[23:38] <directhex> so what gamergate *is* is hard to quantify. since there's no membership criteria it's hard to say "gamergate did X" or "gamergate did Y". but it's clear that there is *strong* overlap between gamergate's communities, and other communities which might be seen as unpleasant - e.g. men's rights activists, white supremacists, hard-right wing libertarians
[23:39] <directhex> their main rallying cry these days is that it's just about ethics in games journalism. but their primary targets are women who advocate for socially liberal positions like "it would be nice for more playable women in games"
[23:39] <directhex> and whilst they might not do it themselves, when gamergate picks a target, that target starts getting death/rape threats to their home, phones, family's addresses, etc
[23:41] <directhex> hence http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2014/10/15/the-perfect-crime/
[23:43] <directhex> so that's why the felicia day thing, diddledan. because now a group of hundreds or thousands, claiming to speak for all gamers (i.e. you are not a gamer if you are not with them), has been... spotted at the scene of the crime when several women have been chased from their homes & jobs for the crime of being women in gaming
[23:44] <diddledan> that's bad
[23:44] <diddledan> I have no superlatives
[23:45] <directhex> a lot of the negative acts being connected to gamergate is actually third-party trolls. but the misogyny is all their own.
[23:47] <zmoylan-pi> and it's showing up twitter as very sub par at cracking down on trolls
[23:48] <Azelphur> yay, gamergate crap
[23:48] <directhex> sorry. diddledan asked.
[23:48] <diddledan> that explains the gamergate-inspired blacklist service
[23:48] <diddledan> for the twits
[23:49] <diddledan> I found it the other day and promptly forgot about it
[23:49] <Azelphur> directhex, the "nice for more playable women in games thing" is pretty bullshit these days
[23:50] <Azelphur> directhex: I'm one hell of a bastard when it comes to absolute neutrality :)
[23:50] <diddledan> I don't think "playable women" is necessarily a problem - more it's a desire for "playable women that aren't half naked even when they're wearing armour"
[23:50] <ali1234> i once read a balanced summary of gamergate but now i can't find it
[23:50] <directhex> diddledan, yeah. one technique that's been in use for 3 months is for any negative tweet about gamergate to be met with dozens or hundreds of replies. varying from concern trolling to threats. so frebsdgirl's system is simple - if you follow multiple GG ringleaders, you're not worth listening to
[23:50] <Azelphur> diddledan: now flip it over, find a game with playable men that aren't built like the hulk.
[23:51] <directhex> Azelphur, men like the hulk is a male power fantasy. chainmail bikinis are... a male power fantasy.
[23:51] <diddledan> Azelphur, bingo - I want "normal" people in games, no matter their gender
[23:52] <Azelphur> directhex: nope, if you're going to make an argument you need to be able to flip the operands around and still have it come out neutral, otherwise you're fighting an obviously not neutral point.
[23:52] <Azelphur> directhex: I can assure you shirtless hulk-driven men are not a male power fantasy
[23:52] <zmoylan-pi> well for 10% of male population...
[23:53] <Azelphur> and also, there are boatloads of games that have reasonably dressed playable female characters as well
[23:53] <directhex> and just like that, Azelphur disporves the action movie genre. arnue disappears in a puff of smoke
[23:53] <diddledan> lol
[23:53] <Azelphur> arnue?
[23:53] <daftykins> arnie, typo
[23:53] <Azelphur> daftykins: so what you're saying is that no women like shirtless Arnie?
[23:54] <Azelphur> I think most women would...ya know, disagree with that point.
[23:54] <daftykins> i'm correcting a typo ;_;
[23:54] <daftykins> ;D
[23:55] <Azelphur> as I said, you have to be able to flip the operands in order to remain neutral, if scantily clad women in video games isn't ok, scantily clad men in video games is also not ok.
[23:55] <diddledan> it's nuts that there's three of us with exactly the same length of name that to a quick glance all look alike
[23:55] <ali1234> Azelphur: logic has no place in this argument
[23:55] <Azelphur> ali1234: indeed, if often doesn't, but then as I said I'm one hell of an ass when it comes to being actually neutral :)
[23:56] <Azelphur> rule 1 of being neutral: by the end of it, everybody hates you
[23:56] <ali1234> yes, absolutely agree on that one
[23:56] <directhex> generally, no. arnie isn't meant to appeal to women. see also http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/
[23:56] <ali1234> that's generally the easiest way to tell the argument isn't worth your time
[23:57] <Azelphur> directhex: heh, every single woman I've asked has a major lady crush on Thor for example.
[23:58] <diddledan> I've got a lady crush on thor
[23:58] <Azelphur> xD
[23:59] <Azelphur> directhex: if we're linking comics, I like this one http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/i-wish-there-were-more-strong-female-characters-in-video-games.jpg