[00:05] <lindol> ;)
[00:06] <lindol> Here is in the morning ;)
[00:06] <lindol> at 9 a.m
[00:06] <lindol> how about you?
[01:31] <LinDol> hi
[06:35] <roasted> Hi
[06:35] <roasted> Is gnome 3.14 possible in Ubuntu gnome 14.04?
[06:56] <darkxst> roasted, no
[08:30] <LinDol> hi
[09:37] <selaci> hi there, does anyone know whether the gdmlogin supports themes in gdm 3.x? I don't see any gdmgreeter in 3.x
[09:41] <darkxst> selaci, gnome-shell draws the greeter now and I don't think its theme-able anymore
[09:43] <selaci> cheers darkxst. That makes sense because I have reviewed the gdm configuration and there is no reference to themes
[10:35] <LinDol> hi
[15:18] <roasted> Hello you wonderful developers
[19:15] <kungr> i want to update to 14.10 with a fresh install. What is everyones go to back-up for apps, repos, and configs?
[19:25] <kungr> Aptik it is.
[20:13] <Scrivener> Hey guys. I installed Gnome on Ubuntu to have a go, and when browsing extensions.gnome.org I get the "We cannot detect a running copy of GNOME on this system..." message. On further investigation I found some information about a Firefox gnome integration plugin, but I can't seem to find this plugin anywhere.
[20:14] <Scrivener> How do I get Gnome Shell (latest in Ubuntu repositories, running on my system) recognized by extensions.gnome.org?
[20:31] <roasted> Scrivener: I noticed that too. Then I realized I was getting a popup on that site in Firefox. I had to hit "allow". Once done, it detected my Gnome version.
[20:31] <roasted> After that I was able to install extensions without issue.
[20:31] <roasted> (I ran into this literally 5 hours ago when I was tinkering with Ubuntu Gnome)
[20:32] <Scrivener> roasted, can't believe I didn't notice that. Guess it just blended in well with the site/my dark theme
[20:32] <Scrivener> Thank you :P
[20:32] <roasted> Scrivener: it blended well on my screen too. It took me a few minutes. :P
[20:32] <Scrivener> Unfortunately now gnome-tweak-tool settings don't all seem to save either, but eh
[20:33] <Scrivener> Today has been absolutely chock full of brokenness. What I get for trying to use open-source everything :P
[20:33] <Scrivener> I just started setting up a new android phone today without touching Google. It's difficult business.
[20:33] <roasted> Scrivener: if you dig deep enough, everything is broken, closed and open alike.
[20:34] <roasted> I work in an environment with just over 5,000 systems. About 3/4 are Ubuntu, the rest Win 7, Win 8, Mac OSX, etc. If I avoided everything I ever had problems with I'd have no electronics to use.
[20:34] <Scrivener> Eh, well with a lot of other options I'd hate on principal (proprietary ones), I would be done very quickly with minimal frustration. It's not an innate "feature" of FOSS software, but definitely more common for it to be frustrating to use in some way.
[20:35] <Scrivener> And I've used FOSS as much as possible for many years. It's my work, and been my play for a lot longer.
[20:35] <roasted> It certainly can be, yes. Different distros, desktop environments, software applications, etc have different priorities and goals.
[20:35] <Scrivener> I like it. I want it to succeed. I just realize that it can really make life difficult to try to stick to it.
[20:35] <Scrivener> And there's no way I've ever been able to get others to join me cause of that. :-/
[20:35]  * Scrivener sighs
[20:35] <roasted> Well, that all depends. I use Linux because I like having less problems. :P
[20:36] <Scrivener> If all I cared about were less problems, I'd be on OSX.
[20:36] <roasted> My wife, parents, etc all run it. Does the job.
[20:36] <roasted> OSX has its own suite of problems too. They're not the problem free platform that a lot of people think they are.
[20:36] <roasted> the environment I work in that's mostly Ubuntu today was 99% OSX 4 years ago.
[20:37] <Scrivener> I didn't claim they don't have problems, but I'd probably not encounter many of them.
[20:37] <roasted> Yeah - that circles back to what I mentioned above. If you dig deep enough, you'll always find problems. :P
[20:37] <Scrivener> I used OSX for work when I first moved where I live now, and it was one of the most stress-free desktop experiences I've had.
[20:37] <Scrivener> Of course, I'm not talking about that though
[20:38] <Scrivener> In my general Linux computing, I tend to find those problems on the surface layer :P
[20:38] <roasted> Depending on what applications you use, how you use them, or how you work with your system, you may never see issues that others are seeing using their same system in a wildly different way.
[20:38] <Scrivener> I don't have to dig at all. In many cases.
[20:38] <roasted> what in particular did you find that was an issue?
[20:38] <Scrivener> Oh boy. Let me try to recount the course I took today.
[20:38] <roasted> Hit me with it. I'm curious :P
[20:39] <Scrivener> I don't actually know how many things it was, just that I have trailed off on a long journey of trying to fix things and gotten distracted from my original goal.
[20:39] <Scrivener> So I'm gonna write for a minute to try to figure out where I've been
[20:43] <Scrivener> Alright, I have 6 issues I was able to immediately recall, a nice pile of the investigations today weren't due to issues, just to me trying to accomplish things in a secure & FOSS way (but not related to issues, just kinda difficult to set up)
[20:44] <Scrivener> So in no particular order, I use the open source SMS app TextSecure on Android (by Open Whisper Systems, Moxie Marlinspike's team)
[20:44] <Scrivener> I want to install it on a new phone that has never touched google (and running CyanogenMod with some severe restrictions on anything that would normally touch google)
[20:44] <Scrivener> Unfortunately, it's only available (officially) through Google Play.
[20:45] <Scrivener> The only other method is to build it from source on my computer and then install from there, which I plan to do. But that's a bit of fail :(
[20:45] <Scrivener> Lack of timely updates in that case, and I'm having to figure out how to set up an Android development environment to do it.
[20:46] <roasted> Could always try to find the apk installer for TextSecure and sideload it on your Android.
[20:46] <Scrivener> That was one of the first things I started with today. Since getting on my desktop to actually do the aforementioned dev environment setup and learn how to do this, I've had synapse crash on me with segfaults
[20:46] <Scrivener> (It isn't available, just Google Play or download source from github)
[20:46] <Scrivener> It used to be on F-Droid, but they kept it quite out of date, so Moxie asked them to just remove it
[20:46] <Scrivener> Anyway
[20:46] <roasted> this? http://www.appsapk.com/textsecure-private-sms-mms/
[20:47] <Scrivener> Could be, but is that an official Whisper Systems distribution method? Is it verified by them in any way?
[20:47] <Scrivener> Oh, and that is a freakishly old version
[20:47] <roasted> I have no idea.
[20:47] <roasted> Given your circumstances of not wanting the phone to touch Google, where Google Play is where apps/updates come from, it leaves little choice.
[20:48] <Scrivener> It's at 2.1.10 right now
[20:48] <Scrivener> Well lots of FOSS is on F-Droid or something similar, and verifiable through them
[20:48] <Scrivener> IN ANY CASE ;)
[20:48] <Scrivener> If I may go on
[20:49] <Scrivener> There was me trying to solve Synapse's segfaulting whenever it started
[20:49] <Scrivener> Then the Numix theme I wanted to use screwing up text entry in firefox (now appears white on white)
[20:49] <Scrivener> Gnome tweak not saving half the settings, or even applying them when I select them
[20:50] <roasted> how did you download the numix theme?
[20:50] <roasted> via PPA or from the site?
[20:50] <Scrivener> Ubuntu still hanging for 10 seconds or so after I put in the password as it always has
[20:50] <Scrivener> And I just today solved the issue of Ubuntu flooding me with reports
[20:50] <Scrivener> Of something internally going wrong (which I get all the time)
[20:50] <roasted> in /etc/default/apport?
[20:51] <Scrivener> I just cleared /var/crash
[20:51] <roasted> if you bring up /etc/default/apport in gedit (as root) you can flip the 1 to a 0 to disable apport.
[20:51] <roasted> I think I disabled mine...
[20:52] <roasted> yeah - # sudo service apport start force_start=1
[20:52] <roasted> enabled=0
[20:52] <Scrivener> These are problems specific to my desktop. On my laptop, I get things such as Could not load configuration for CTR65 (or whatever number it picks) when using 3-display setup, with it constantly "refreshing" the lock screen and giving that boot-up Ubuntu sound it does
[20:52] <Scrivener> Until I do a hard reset with the power switch and boot it up properly
[20:53] <roasted> Am I correct in understanding that this has all been under Ubuntu Gnome?
[20:53] <Scrivener> No, I just installed gnome shell on Ubuntu today just to try it on my desktop. I also have Awesome WM and i3, and I'm much more familiar with AwesomeWM.
[20:53] <Scrivener> Which of course is its own beast.
[20:53] <roasted> I'm not sure how well installing Gnome Shell on Ubuntu would work...
[20:54] <roasted> I would think Ubuntu Gnome's dedicated ISO installer would be far more problem free.
[20:54] <Scrivener> But I'm not saying all of these things to try to get help with them. I'm just saying that everywhere I step I seem to run into *something* not working properly, even if I can swipe it away for all intents and purposes.
[20:54] <Scrivener> Not usually an experience I get on many other platforms, but I am capable of living with it as a more technical user.
[20:54] <Scrivener> And I will, if it means I am not on Windows or OSX :P
[20:54] <roasted> Ubuntu was traditionally built on a lot of GTK components that makes up what Gnome is. About four years ago Ubuntu switched to Unity, their own environment that was still built on a lot of GTK stuff.
[20:55] <roasted> As a result, Unity and Gnome can sometimes "fight".
[20:55] <Scrivener> roasted, these are only things that happened today. And only the gnome-specific ones have occurred today for the first time
[20:55] <roasted> Ubuntu Gnome would be a more thorough way to get a true Gnome environment while using Ubuntu.
[20:55] <Scrivener> My point is still there, and I'm not harping on gnome or Ubuntu specifically
[20:55] <roasted> Overall, if I wanted Ubuntu and KDE, I wouldn't install KDE on Ubuntu - I'd just grab Kubuntu. Same with Ubuntu Gnome.
[20:56] <roasted> I understand - but you're also talking one specific distro and pulling in an entirely new desktop environment.
[20:56] <roasted> If you ask me, our minds should be blown that this is even possible. Can OSX install a different desktop environment? Or Windows?
[20:56] <Scrivener> Yes, but plenty of problems I mentioned just now exist on that plain distro. I mentioned that.
[20:56] <roasted> On the plain distro, as in Ubuntu with Unity?
[20:56] <Scrivener> Yes.
[20:56] <Scrivener> Or Mint KDE, or similar user-friendly distros
[20:57] <Scrivener> I've never had an experience with them that was as clean as I'd like from a desktop OS.
[20:57] <Scrivener> Like I said, I can deal with it -- I'm used to a lot worse. Arch is my playground, and I live in the CLI.
[20:57] <roasted> I'm not sure where else I can be of assistance. The Android thing is kind of different given that Android/Google is peanut butter/jelly, and branching that off is an area I'm not familiar with.
[20:57] <Scrivener> But it's still a bad experience for a lot of people, including me :P
[20:57] <roasted> Well, everybody has different experiences.
[20:57] <Scrivener> Nah, you don't need to assist with this. You just wanted to know what issues I ran into.
[20:57] <roasted> If anything running Ubuntu on as many machines as we have at work makes me bored.
[20:58] <Scrivener> And I was recounting them ^.^ If I need specific assistance, I go to internet searches first, and IRC second if I can't get it on my own.
[20:58] <roasted> Meanwhile the OSX and Windows machines, which constitute a minority even when you combine their numbers, keep me on my toes.
[20:58] <Scrivener> I wish all my users were on OSX instead of Windows. I've never been called over to troubleshoot an OSX machine's networking or anything. :-/
[20:58] <Scrivener> Or driver issues.
[20:59] <Scrivener> I mean half of them are.
[20:59] <Scrivener> (on OSX, that is)
[20:59] <roasted> I haven't had driver specific issues on OSX.
[20:59] <Scrivener> The other half aren't, just kinda haphazardly.
[20:59] <roasted> I've had a multitude of other stupid issues. Like their botched implementation of Samba/SMB that causes headaches to file servers, or their force upgrade march that renders a lot of fully usable machines unable to upgrade to the "supported" versions of OSX.
[21:00] <Scrivener> None of my users run Samba -- I set up a central Samba server on Linux and they all access that just fine.
[21:00] <roasted> yeah - but the implementation of Samba on the clients is what can be troublesome at times.
[21:01] <roasted> I also have concerns about their recent removal of SSD support for third party SSDs.
[21:01] <roasted> We were on the verge of upgrading some of our Macs to SSDs but haven't yet, then I read that news article.
[21:01] <roasted> Installed your own SSD? Chances are your OSX system won't boot after the automatic update.
[21:01] <roasted> Crap like that gets old.
[21:01] <roasted> But like anything else, to each their own. ;)
[21:02] <Scrivener> But to compare experiences, if I hopped on OSX, installed Firefox, a theme for it, a new terminal emulator, Alfred for Synapse-like searches, changed up settings on it (should mention I've had issues with some core Ubuntu settings not being remembered as well), plugged it into a 3+ monitor setup, and rebooted it 10 times, I'd run into no problems.
[21:02] <Scrivener> But I'd be scared doing it the first time with just about any Linux distro and hoping that it works properly :P
[21:02] <Scrivener> That doesn't make them bad.
[21:02] <roasted> what's interesting is
[21:03] <Scrivener> It just makes me sad. I would love that same experience out of a totally FOSS-based platform.
[21:03] <roasted> what you just described, excluding synapse, is 100% of what my Ubuntu work laptop is.
[21:03] <Scrivener> I've dreamed about a company that does that.
[21:03] <roasted> main LCD + 2 external, etc.
[21:03] <Scrivener> Right, what I described, including synapse, is what my laptop does decently now
[21:03] <Scrivener> And I selected all-intel internals on a Thinkpad, specifically for Linux compatibility.
[21:03] <roasted> <3 SonikkuAmerica
[21:04] <Scrivener> And yet it has had issues since day 1. Every computer I've ever tried these things on has, without exception.
[21:04] <Scrivener> Something I have to fix *somewhere*
[21:04] <Scrivener> If I try to get it into this workflow
[21:04] <roasted> I'm not sure what to say, really. We have about 3,800 systems on Ubuntu at work...
[21:04] <Scrivener> What are they running on?
[21:04] <roasted> they make me bored because they require less work from me to keep running.
[21:04] <roasted> uh
[21:05] <roasted> Acer Travelmate, Acer V5, Lenovo X120, Lenovo X130, Mac Mini, iMac
[21:05] <roasted> Dell Zino
[21:05] <Scrivener> Oh, one thing I attempted to do last night was copy files from an NTFS drive to an HFS+ drive.
[21:05] <Scrivener> That was an adventure.
[21:05] <Scrivener> (On Ubuntu)
[21:05] <Scrivener> ._.
[21:05] <Scrivener> Which was sad, because it supports so very many filesystems very well.
[21:05] <Scrivener> Dozens, even.
[21:05] <roasted> Is lack of HFS+ support on Ubuntu a fault of... Ubuntu?
[21:05] <Scrivener> But one of the most popular ones isn't supported.
[21:06] <roasted> HFS+ is only popular with Mac OS.
[21:06] <Scrivener> Which is very popular.
[21:06] <Scrivener> And common
[21:06] <roasted> Still only popular with Mac OS
[21:06] <roasted> The popularity stops there... with Mac OS
[21:06] <Scrivener> NTFS is only popular with Windows. Stops there, with windows. But you'd scream if Ubuntu didn't have support to access that filesystem, because it is just very useful and common to do so.
[21:07] <Scrivener> It would be a huge pain to need Windows only to ever interact with it.
[21:07] <roasted> It wouldn't make a difference to me personally if Ubuntu didn't support NTFS. :<
[21:07] <roasted> (keywords - me personally)
[21:07] <Scrivener> Then you work in a very abnormal environment :P
[21:07] <roasted> I do work in a very abnormal environment.
[21:07] <roasted> but damn I love it
[21:08] <Scrivener> My boss has brought up the idea of getting team members on Ubuntu, and man, it's gotten me excited.
[21:08] <Scrivener> Not team members*, other company employees
[21:09] <roasted> It's always worthwhile to consider alternatives.
[21:09] <Scrivener> It would save costs in a lot of places. But I know the pushback would be tremendous.
[21:09] <roasted> The second your company has blinders on and refuses to try new things is the second it becomes an inevitable failure, imo.
[21:09] <Scrivener> I love it because freedom, he loves it because software costs.
[21:09] <roasted> We saved 360,000 dollars in the first year of our deployment with Ubuntu.
[21:09] <Scrivener> But I can't ignore that it would probably not end well for many users.
[21:09] <roasted> I work for a public school district. That's tax payer dollars.
[21:09] <Scrivener> Ohhhhh I see.
[21:10] <Scrivener> School computers. Makes more sense.
[21:10] <roasted> We were able to buy FAR more systems WITH 360k savings by using Acer/Lenovo/whatever as opposed to doing what we had done for the last 15 years prior - buy Macs.
[21:10] <Scrivener> I plan on trying to find out how well Office 2010 works with PlayOnLinux (because it's absolutely necessary) and I heard it was pretty good. Do you have experience with that?
[21:10] <roasted> No. We use Libre Office exclusively.
[21:11] <roasted> sec, wife calling
[21:11] <Scrivener> Not an option here. Our Excel users found missing functionality they considered essential (which I then looked for, and found in developer feature request lists for equivalent LibreOffice software).
[21:11] <Scrivener> I think people that just use Word would get by fine with it.
[21:11] <Scrivener> I certainly do -- I almost never touched LibreOffice anyway.
[21:11] <Scrivener> touch*
[21:12] <Scrivener> Just because that's not my kind of work.
[21:12] <Scrivener> When you get back, I'd love to ask more about your user environment though. I think mine might be a bit more complicated, but if I could find a bulletproof setup that could "bore" me, I'd love to give it a shot.
[21:13] <Scrivener> Or pitch it to $boss, who already liked the idea.
[21:14] <roasted> Scrivener: let's take it to a PM. I kind of forgot we were still in the main ubuntu gnome support channel here having this discussion. :P
[21:16] <Scrivener> Heh, sure