| Azelphur | the last slide is a tad silly, but the rest of it gets the point across reasonably well | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| directhex | funny to see borderlands listed as an example | 00:02 |
| directhex | GG went ape over borderlands TPS acknowledging the existence of lesbians | 00:02 |
| Azelphur | been meaning to buy it, but haven't played it yet :) | 00:02 |
| directhex | "SJW INFILTRATION! VIDYA ARE DOOMED!" etc | 00:02 |
| daftykins | it's fun co-op | 00:02 |
| Azelphur | directhex: heh, I'm not GG, I'm the neutral ass as previously mentioned :) | 00:03 |
| directhex | borderlands is our main husband-and-wife game. we're on TPS now. | 00:03 |
| Azelphur | no problem with the lesbian thing (in fact I couldn't really care less, I'd probably skip the cut scene so I could get back to shooting things) | 00:03 |
| ali1234 | the cut scenes are the most entertaining part of that game really | 00:03 |
| Azelphur | hehe | 00:04 |
| ali1234 | the shooting is okay but it gets boring after about 10 hours | 00:04 |
| directhex | it gets boring, solo. it's much more fun co-op | 00:04 |
| Azelphur | directhex: also being the neutral ass, I do have some points on the opposite side though, that chick from Soul Caliber is just ridiculous | 00:04 |
| ali1234 | which one? | 00:05 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: Ivy | 00:06 |
| directhex | Azelphur, some of those examples on your link are ridiculous. i think it's probably fair to say http://i2.listal.com/image/469481/936full-x--blades-cover.jpg is not a representation designed by a woman to make women feel empowered | 00:06 |
| Azelphur | looks like something you'd expect to find in your average BDSM magazine xD | 00:06 |
| ali1234 | blanes? | 00:06 |
| Azelphur | directhex: of course it isn't, games in general aren't supposed to be designed for that. | 00:06 |
| directhex | Azelphur, it's not just ivy in soul calibur. http://www.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/soul-calibur-boobs.jpg | 00:07 |
| directhex | Azelphur, what do you mean? | 00:07 |
| Azelphur | directhex: games aren't meant to be designed to make a woman feel empowered | 00:07 |
| Azelphur | that's...not a games function | 00:07 |
| Azelphur | (why doesn't this toaster make me a coffee, dammit!) | 00:08 |
| directhex | Azelphur, games are about feeling powerful and you getting your way. for the most part. | 00:08 |
| Azelphur | uwot | 00:08 |
| daftykins | Azelphur: for some reason i want to say "because you... haven't modded it before" in the voice of Lawrence Fishburne from The Matrix #1 | 00:09 |
| Azelphur | directhex: no, games are about fun | 00:09 |
| Azelphur | daftykins: haha | 00:09 |
| directhex | Azelphur, games are about whatever the designer wants them to be. | 00:09 |
| directhex | and winning is fun | 00:09 |
| directhex | how many games end on an entirely negative note? i can think of a few. | 00:10 |
| Azelphur | directhex: true, but most games certainly aren't about feeling powerful and getting your own way | 00:10 |
| Azelphur | I'd love to hear how that applies to some of the most popular games (such as, say 2048) | 00:10 |
| directhex | survival horror isn't | 00:10 |
| Azelphur | I guess you're a real macho man if you can get that 2048 down ;) | 00:10 |
| ali1234 | "most popular games" | 00:10 |
| directhex | now we're bringing web puzzles into it? that;s disingenuous and you know it | 00:10 |
| Azelphur | oh, console games? | 00:10 |
| ali1234 | directhex: wait, are you making the argument that you're not a real gamer if you play web games? | 00:11 |
| directhex | AAA. platform doesn't really matter | 00:11 |
| Azelphur | directhex: how about the most recent game me and all of my friends have purchased and been playing | 00:11 |
| Azelphur | TableTop simulator, real macho. | 00:11 |
| directhex | ali1234, i'm making the argument that abstract puzzle games don't really feature in discussions of player portrayal | 00:11 |
| Azelphur | oh ok, Puzzle games are out, lets see here... | 00:12 |
| ali1234 | what about a game like FTL? | 00:12 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: indeed, macho :P | 00:12 |
| ali1234 | i love that game, but only on easy | 00:12 |
| * penguin42 still hasn't got 2048 | 00:12 | |
| directhex | Azelphur, it was your graphic. i didn't see any puzzles on it. | 00:13 |
| Azelphur | directhex: you know what we should be fighting against rather than "there's this one game where a girl has ridiculously big boobs on" | 00:13 |
| Azelphur | http://xkcd.com/322/ <-- this crap | 00:13 |
| Azelphur | that's the kind of crap I clamp down on, on my game servers, and we have a bunch of regular female players who enjoy it, so I'd say I'm doing something reasonably well. | 00:13 |
| directhex | ali1234, FTL doesn't portray gender in anything. your crew are male or female, as you see fit. which is great for a game where you're building your own story | 00:13 |
| Azelphur | because that crap makes you feel far less welcome in the community, than a game having some girl with big boobs in it. | 00:15 |
| Azelphur | at least, in this neutral asses opinion. xD | 00:15 |
| directhex | Azelphur, active sexism is indeed bad. and policing it to make people feel more welcome is great | 00:16 |
| Azelphur | directhex: I do so in a neutral manner, if I saw the same crap being thrown at a guy I'd take the same response, but of course that pretty much never happens | 00:16 |
| Azelphur | (although it has happened, amusingly) | 00:16 |
| Azelphur | but yea, as far as it goes now days most games are fairly gender-irrelevant | 00:17 |
| ali1234 | not AAA games | 00:18 |
| directhex | again, it depends. and especially not in AAA | 00:18 |
| ali1234 | but nearly all of those are terrible anyway | 00:18 |
| Azelphur | well lets take a look at my steam library | 00:18 |
| directhex | most sexism is thoughtlessness, not evildoing. | 00:18 |
| Azelphur | Amnesia (I think the main player is a guy? dunno), Blur (No sexes), Burnout (No sexes), Counter-Strike (Male characters, but meh), FTL (no sexes), Skyrim (Admittedly has some minor things), L4D + 2 (Both sexes, gender neutral), ... | 00:19 |
| Azelphur | and that's just the top few games I play on my steam library | 00:20 |
| Azelphur | I think overall we're pretty good | 00:20 |
| Azelphur | of the AAA games in my library, Counter Strikes, L4D, Portal, Trine 2, TF2, all of them are pretty ok | 00:21 |
| directhex | counter-strike? really? | 00:22 |
| directhex | or tf2? | 00:22 |
| daftykins | guess i have to ignore this channel for the rest of the evening ;) | 00:22 |
| Azelphur | directhex: go on xD | 00:22 |
| diddledan | sorry, daftykins | 00:22 |
| daftykins | hehehe, dw | 00:22 |
| Azelphur | daftykins: haha | 00:22 |
| diddledan | I feel kinda like pandora | 00:23 |
| Azelphur | diddledan: YOU HAVE OPENED THE BOX AND SHALL RECEIVE MY USUAL RANT. | 00:23 |
| Azelphur | directhex: I don't see how counter-strike or TF2 can be objectifying women, they don't even have any women in them. XD | 00:24 |
| ali1234 | isn't pyro supposed to be a woman? | 00:25 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: nobody knows XD | 00:25 |
| daftykins | someone came in #ubuntu the other day and claimed HL3 was confirmed, i know the term is a meme in a way but i still had a quick read online :( | 00:25 |
| directhex | Azelphur, objectification is one issue amongst several. CS is a good example, since (e.g.) there are women in the real IDF and FBI (cs:go), and most of the operative groups of the earlier games too | 00:25 |
| directhex | but not in the game | 00:26 |
| Azelphur | directhex: so the issue is that the game only has male characters? | 00:26 |
| directhex | you can chose a model T in any colour, as long as it's black | 00:26 |
| directhex | Azelphur, it's one issue. games disproportionately feature only male avatars. there are women in GIGN, why aren't they playable in CS? | 00:27 |
| Azelphur | directhex: right, gotta flip the operands then in order to remain neutral? are we also angry that there are games that only have female playable characters? | 00:27 |
| directhex | Azelphur, can you name 3 from 2014? | 00:28 |
| ali1234 | well, can you name a AAA game with only female characters? | 00:28 |
| Azelphur | directhex: I don't think I can name 3 games from 2014 period tbh | 00:28 |
| Azelphur | I'm not that up to speed :) | 00:28 |
| directhex | 2013? | 00:28 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: Tomb Raider | 00:28 |
| diddledan | sweet! just closed 4 issues from my current project which were preventing go-live | 00:28 |
| ali1234 | tomb raider clearly has too much fan service | 00:29 |
| Azelphur | directhex: honestly I don't have a great deal of knowledge on the latest games, or their release dates, I just notice games I like the look of and play them. | 00:29 |
| diddledan | just need to test in IE10 and 11 now | 00:30 |
| diddledan | IE9 is okish | 00:30 |
| directhex | Azelphur, you;d struggle, even if you were well versed on the topic | 00:30 |
| directhex | Azelphur, i don't think i can name 3 female-protag-only games in 2014. | 00:30 |
| Azelphur | directhex: well I'm not struggling to name triple A games with only female characters. | 00:30 |
| diddledan | IE9 will suffice. I'm not concentrating any more time to making it look good there | 00:30 |
| ali1234 | the only ones i can think of are fan service games | 00:30 |
| directhex | Azelphur, okay. name the three that come to mind for you. | 00:30 |
| Azelphur | but, even if I was, that's not the point | 00:30 |
| Azelphur | directhex: tomb raider, portal (1 and 2), mirrors edge. | 00:30 |
| Azelphur | there's 4 for ya | 00:30 |
| Azelphur | want some more? | 00:31 |
| Azelphur | Metroids another | 00:31 |
| ali1234 | ones that have more than one player character | 00:31 |
| diddledan | portal has a female computer! why must all computers be female?! | 00:31 |
| Azelphur | haha | 00:31 |
| directhex | tomb raider from 2013, or are you going for the whole franchise? | 00:31 |
| diddledan | at least the canonical computer wasn't female. aka hal9000 | 00:31 |
| Azelphur | directhex: I was going for the whole franchise I guess, I haven't played tomb raider since the playstation 2 :) | 00:31 |
| Azelphur | directhex: none the less, the existence of games that only have female characters wasn't the point | 00:32 |
| Azelphur | the point was, if it's unacceptable for there to be games with only male character(s), it should also be unacceptable if you flip the operands. | 00:32 |
| Azelphur | if it isn't, you're by definition being sexist :) | 00:32 |
| directhex | i used the word "disproportionately". the problem isn't there being games with only one playable gender, it's needing to go back to 2007 to name 4 of them. | 00:33 |
| Azelphur | directhex: *shrug* I probably need to go back to 2007 to name any games | 00:33 |
| Azelphur | as I say, I don't keep up to date | 00:33 |
| ali1234 | me too | 00:33 |
| ali1234 | what's that game where everyone hated the ending? | 00:34 |
| directhex | mass effect 3? | 00:34 |
| Azelphur | I haven't owned a console since the PS2, and as you can see by my games library, it's all not the latest stuff https://steamcommunity.com/id/Azelphur/games/ | 00:34 |
| ali1234 | yeah that | 00:34 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: ah yea because of the guy love or something :) | 00:34 |
| Azelphur | I giggled at how uppity everyone was getting. | 00:34 |
| Azelphur | I think my newest AAA game is probably trine 2 | 00:34 |
| ali1234 | well, in that game you can pick whether the player character is male or female right? | 00:35 |
| Azelphur | which is circa 2011 xD | 00:35 |
| diddledan | I expect for some having men love men in a game is as bad as having a woman that isn't in a bikini | 00:35 |
| directhex | ali1234, in mass effect? yes. | 00:35 |
| ali1234 | but all the NPC don't change | 00:35 |
| directhex | diddledan, for some. mass effect was banned in singapore due to gayness. | 00:35 |
| diddledan | directhex, joy | 00:35 |
| directhex | ali1234, right. bioware is extremely well regarded on the topic of gender portrayal, actually | 00:36 |
| diddledan | that really is sucky | 00:36 |
| ali1234 | so do feminists approve of that game then? | 00:36 |
| Azelphur | that flipping the operands thing works great for being really level headed and neutral, I use it all the time in my head. | 00:36 |
| directhex | ali1234, by and large, yes. | 00:36 |
| Azelphur | it's a great sorta morality/equality check | 00:36 |
| directhex | it helps that jennifer hale is the better voice actress. | 00:36 |
| ali1234 | they did all the lines twice? | 00:36 |
| directhex | yes. | 00:36 |
| ali1234 | well, half of them i guess | 00:37 |
| directhex | but the player is only ever referred to as their surname | 00:37 |
| Azelphur | hehehe, I apparently played Need for speed undercover more than I did Skyrim, I wonder if this makes me a bad gamer. | 00:37 |
| directhex | so that doesn't change with gender | 00:37 |
| directhex | and they're "they" not "her" or "him". they're clever to avoid needing anyone in the world to care about gender. other than for romance chains. | 00:37 |
| Azelphur | quick, break out the zhe | 00:38 |
| ali1234 | GTA has never had a female PC right? | 00:39 |
| directhex | ali1234, right. | 00:39 |
| ali1234 | assassin's creed never had one | 00:39 |
| directhex | ali1234, ac3: liberation, on vita | 00:39 |
| ali1234 | i can't think of any other AAA games | 00:39 |
| directhex | which is an ac game starring a black woman, and is mostly about slavery. it's interesting. | 00:39 |
| Azelphur | directhex: you also mentioned earlier that there are select gamers who are, I guess extremists really | 00:40 |
| Azelphur | the ones who harass people | 00:40 |
| directhex | sure | 00:41 |
| Azelphur | and yup, those guys are total nutjobs | 00:41 |
| directhex | and people doing harassing who aren't even gamers. | 00:41 |
| Azelphur | exactly, that really grinds my gears | 00:41 |
| Azelphur | I can't remember that one girls name who has been kicking up a right fuss | 00:41 |
| Azelphur | who admits she doesn't even play games | 00:41 |
| Azelphur | and then there was the whole thing where she claimed people were threatening her and that she had to leave but never filed a police report | 00:42 |
| Azelphur | whole thing stank of BS | 00:42 |
| directhex | i think you have a rose-tinted view of how things are in 2014 though. it's not a quest to destroy all games forever, it's saying "how come in hitman absolution, male assassins wear pressed suits & female assassins working for the same employers are latex bondage nuns?" | 00:42 |
| directhex | Azelphur, those points aren't actually true fwiw. | 00:42 |
| * Azelphur shrugs | 00:42 | |
| directhex | you're thinking of media critic anita sarkeesian. who *did* file a report (but GG is loud & claimed she didn't, so that's the reality that many believe) | 00:43 |
| Azelphur | I see, and yea, it's certainly very loud :) | 00:43 |
| Azelphur | directhex: that and the other point is that I get death threats on a weekly basis, welcome to being popular on the internet. | 00:44 |
| directhex | and she said she didn't play many AAA games, once, in 2010. she's clearly got a better grasp of games than most of GG, and has shared family photos of her on the family SNES etc. so i think that's just a trumped up "look, she's an outsider charge to try & discredit her | 00:44 |
| directhex | Azelphur, with your home address? | 00:44 |
| Azelphur | directhex: yup | 00:44 |
| Azelphur | I've had proper creepy "I know where you live" shit :) | 00:44 |
| Azelphur | my response is usually "Hey, come by, we'll have tea and crumpets" | 00:45 |
| directhex | did you hear about the 4chan murder, recently? | 00:46 |
| Azelphur | It's just a reality of being popular, there are nutjobs out there | 00:46 |
| diddledan | there's a difference between being told "I know where you live" and "I'm going to go round and **** her. ps. she lives at 123 actual address" | 00:46 |
| Azelphur | directhex: there seem to be a lot of nutjobs who happen to use 4chan | 00:46 |
| ali1234 | i didn't, go on? | 00:46 |
| Azelphur | but yea, I didn't :) | 00:47 |
| directhex | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29932268 | 00:47 |
| ali1234 | oh yeah, i did hear about that | 00:48 |
| Azelphur | crazy | 00:48 |
| Azelphur | but yea, there was also some guy who got murdered for taking a sword in a video game | 00:48 |
| Azelphur | there are crazy people out there, don't let them get to you / stop you doing things. | 00:48 |
| diddledan | seriously, don't let them get to you. or you've had it too | 00:49 |
| directhex | in yankland, those crazy people are armed | 00:49 |
| Azelphur | well yea that too :P | 00:49 |
| Azelphur | directhex: not like they don't have weapons here too, admittedly not guns | 00:49 |
| Azelphur | but still fairly equal in the you're probably going to die range | 00:50 |
| diddledan | are samurai swords allowed in the UK? (e.g. as ornaments which can "accidentally" be used to aggressively cut a guy's head off because he smiled at you) | 00:50 |
| Azelphur | diddledan: yea they are, I have multiple friends who have them | 00:51 |
| diddledan | cracray | 00:51 |
| ali1234 | lol, "shirtgate" | 00:52 |
| Azelphur | hehe | 00:52 |
| diddledan | o_O | 00:52 |
| directhex | i thought it was "shirtstorm" | 00:54 |
| directhex | and that guy's been totally ripped apart. he did something dumb at just the wrong time, i guess. | 00:55 |
| daftykins | props to him if the video apology was genuine | 00:58 |
| ali1234 | if it had been me, i would have worn the same shirt in the apology video | 00:58 |
| directhex | yeah, he looked crushed. but he has thousands of people attacking him, at the apex of his career & the culmination of decades of work. i feel sorry for the guy | 00:59 |
| directhex | he did a dumb thing, he's sorry. that should really be the end of it | 00:59 |
| diddledan | what did he do? | 01:00 |
| penguin42 | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-30055278 ? | 01:00 |
| directhex | he did a press conference for the comet probe, wearing a shirt printed with women in latex bondage gear | 01:00 |
| directhex | which is pushing "casual work attire" a little bit further than most people would agree was workplace-appropriate | 01:01 |
| * penguin42 now wants to know if that's his normal shirts or he put it on specially | 01:01 | |
| diddledan | I know what it's like tho - I wore a "budweiser" tee unthinking to a place where there might have been alcoholics | 01:02 |
| diddledan | might have been - i.e. likely | 01:02 |
| directhex | this is a good example of my comment above [00:18]<directhex> most sexism is thoughtlessness, not evildoing. | 01:03 |
| directhex | it'd be lovely if people left the guy alone to do some sciencing now | 01:03 |
| diddledan | I agree - it's the same for a lot of things - if people didn't highlight the accident it wouldn't be an issue for anyone, but some people enjoy pointing out things like that | 01:03 |
| daftykins | bit of a flaw to social network i guess, allowing these bandwagon jumpers to be united | 01:04 |
| daftykins | *networking | 01:04 |
| ali1234 | right, as soon as twitter gets involved is the point where i stop caring | 01:05 |
| penguin42 | it's got to be said though as shirts go, it's one of the worst choices for being non-offensive | 01:05 |
| ali1234 | brown shirt with a black arm band would have been worse, i think | 01:05 |
| penguin42 | probably true | 01:05 |
| directhex | penguin42, he won't have thought beyond "this shirt looks cool and colourful" | 01:06 |
| directhex | "i work with women scientists, maybe they might be uncomfortable at me wearing a gallery of boobies at them" won't have been a consideration, due to aforementioned thoughtlessness | 01:07 |
| penguin42 | directhex: Yeh, I'm sure he didn't pick it to be offensive, but still that's pretty dumb, you don't buy a shirt like that and not realise it'll cause offense to some people | 01:07 |
| directhex | penguin42, apparently it was a gift from a designer friend of his. she's not entirely pleased at the reaction to her work | 01:08 |
| daftykins | oops. | 01:08 |
| penguin42 | directhex: Hehe, pointing out it was a gift from a lady does help a bit :-) But still, I'm sorry it's obvious it would cause offence to people | 01:09 |
| diddledan | this is where double standards come into play because I can foresee some folk will read that it was made by a woman and say "oh well it's ok then because she's a woman" | 01:09 |
| directhex | some women are okay with that kind of thing. some don't. it's basic human decency to ask yourself if you're potentially making your co-workers uncomfortable with your behaviour, which includes the way you dress | 01:10 |
| ali1234 | did anyone actually ask any of his co-workers? | 01:10 |
| directhex | i think co-workers might be upset if i came in my leather bondage harness instead of jeans & t-shirt | 01:10 |
| diddledan | directhex, oh, I didn't know you were a deviant. nice to learn. ;-) | 01:11 |
| directhex | i think http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/post/50432219744/special-guest-edition-the-hawkeye-initiative-irl is my favourite primer on the idea of accidentally hostile work environments | 01:12 |
| directhex | now, i should totes be in bed | 01:16 |
| daftykins | oh wow 1am, didn't even notice | 01:16 |
| directhex | we were having SO MUCH FUN talking about GAMERGATE and SOCIAL JUSTICE | 01:16 |
| * directhex foams at the mouth a bit | 01:16 | |
| ali1234 | i don't get it, why can't we have both posters? | 01:17 |
| daftykins | directhex: what's scary is i don't doubt you own said harness | 01:17 |
| directhex | ali1234, we absolutely can. but originally only ruby underboob existed. and nobody in seniority considered that it might be inappropriate for that to be the case | 01:18 |
| diddledan | I love both those pictures | 01:18 |
| directhex | it's a cute, humorous, and harmless way to diffuse the "i work in an office surrounded by semi-naked women on the walls and it makes me uncomfortable" issue | 01:19 |
| directhex | right. BED FOR REAL SO MUCH ZOMG | 01:25 |
| daftykins | just read that through, quite amusing :) | 01:28 |
| daftykins | impressively grounded boss to respond so | 01:28 |
| diddledan | lol: https://twitter.com/jordansissel/status/533421480047312897 | 01:30 |
| penguin42 | I didn't recognise that at first, my browser displayed it as an emoticon like with a face | 01:33 |
| ali1234 | that's what it is supposed to do... | 01:33 |
| diddledan | it's a pile of poo with eyes | 01:33 |
| ali1234 | right, 💩 | 01:34 |
| diddledan | hmm, my hexchat doesn't like that | 01:34 |
| diddledan | (windows) | 01:34 |
| ali1234 | tl;dr "pile of poo" is a unicode character | 01:35 |
| ali1234 | no actual font i've ever seen has it | 01:36 |
| ali1234 | twitter converts it to an image for display | 01:37 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: It's apparently in the symbola font | 01:37 |
| diddledan | os x does it | 01:37 |
| diddledan | I think it might be a hook though rather than font support | 01:37 |
| penguin42 | yeh fc21 does it | 01:37 |
| penguin42 | hmm, routing hickup on vm | 02:16 |
| penguin42 | vm is definitely having problems | 02:29 |
| diddledan | oh dear | 02:29 |
| penguin42 | it had a hickup about 20mins ago, and most stuff seems to be OK, but some stuff hmm | 02:30 |
| penguin42 | traceroutes to imgur.com seem to die, but are fine from another host | 02:30 |
| diddledan | I have a vm connection I can try with | 02:31 |
| diddledan | looks like I die within virgin at 3 hops to imgur.com | 02:32 |
| penguin42 | seems oddly specific doesn't it | 02:32 |
| diddledan | oh, maybe I don't | 02:32 |
| diddledan | 4 timed-out hops, and then three more | 02:32 |
| diddledan | three more responding hops | 02:33 |
| diddledan | now more timing out hops | 02:33 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: manc-core-2a-xe-1022-0.network.virginmedia.net, pres-core-2b-ae16-0.network.virginmedia.net know-geam-1b-pc200.network.virginmedia.net wb7301b.network.virginmedia.net and that's it | 02:33 |
| diddledan | yup, I'm getting to wb7301b too | 02:34 |
| penguin42 | with a not responder between manc-core and pres-core | 02:34 |
| diddledan | interesting that we're both hitting the same router | 02:34 |
| penguin42 | well it's bubbled around and eventually hit the way it thinks it's supposed to get there | 02:34 |
| daftykins | i could give you a Channel perspective ;) | 02:35 |
| daftykins | doubt it'd be much use mind 8D | 02:35 |
| diddledan | I go to winchester? then brent? (I'm interpreting the hostnames as I see fit) before several timeouts then pres-core and beyond the same as you | 02:35 |
| penguin42 | why the hell do you end up at pres-core - I'm assuming pres-core is Preston | 02:36 |
| diddledan | yeah, I thought that too | 02:36 |
| penguin42 | Manc-Pres makes some sense | 02:36 |
| diddledan | I think virgin's internal routes are broke | 02:37 |
| daftykins | diddledan: any thoughts on the dd command by jakesyl in #ubuntu ? '/dev/rdisk1' looks suspect to me, or is that standard naming in mac land? | 02:37 |
| penguin42 | yeh that's rawdisk on mac/bsd | 02:37 |
| daftykins | i'm thinking about the mistake between /dev/sdx1 vs /dev/sdx for image writing | 02:37 |
| daftykins | ah, so it's irrelevant to partitions? fair enough | 02:38 |
| diddledan | yup, rdisk1 is the un-buffered/filtered disk-level - partitions are like: /dev/rdisk1s1 | 02:39 |
| diddledan | where s means "slice" | 02:39 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: Looks like they fixed it | 02:40 |
| diddledan | slice is the way that bsd refers to what the rest of the world calls a partition because in bsd-land you would slice up your disc with one or more bsd slices (and any other oses) and then partition the bsd slice for bsd filesystem segregation such as swap, root, home etc | 02:40 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: Although I'm curious if you still go up to preston to get routed back down through London | 02:41 |
| diddledan | same first three hops | 02:41 |
| diddledan | 4, 5, 6, and 7 still time out as before | 02:41 |
| diddledan | and now I'm up in preston, with the same three hops from the failed trace, but then go to nrth-bb-1b-xe-618-0.network.virginmedia.net followed by london and out onto level3 | 02:42 |
| diddledan | seem to be timing out after the level3 hop | 02:43 |
| diddledan | this is the last that responded: ae-11-vl-3101.edge3.London2.Level3.net (4.69.202.170) | 02:43 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: Yeh | 02:45 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: But imgur stuff actually responds now, oh there's some switching going on, a traceroute I just did has shown it going via cogentco.com rather than Level3.net | 02:46 |
| diddledan | I love watching bgp simulations | 02:46 |
| penguin42 | although given the last one is shown as lhr01 I guess that's the packets being put on a plane | 02:46 |
| diddledan | it's a shame I don't have access to the bgp routing table to make my own | 02:47 |
| diddledan | lol | 02:47 |
| * diddledan tries again | 02:52 | |
| diddledan | still trying to go out level3 for me | 02:53 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: Yeh, flipped back :-) | 02:54 |
| diddledan | heh, their routing must be really screwed if it's flipping | 02:54 |
| diddledan | I'm guessing their NOC team have been rudely awakened | 02:55 |
| diddledan | trying a random name that I'm expecting to not have an edge-cache in ISPs - got to cogentco.com's routers (8 of them!) then nephoscale.net | 02:57 |
| diddledan | now timeouts | 02:57 |
| diddledan | this is to eff.org | 02:57 |
| penguin42 | but I seem to be able to connect to it OK | 02:57 |
| diddledan | odd | 02:58 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: I assume that the 'know-' address is Knowsley (liverpool) - virgin list it as an office site, the remaining ones though are too cryptic | 02:58 |
| diddledan | lol @ hostname: 18 SiliconValley_WebHosting.demarc.cogentco.com (38.112.9.214) | 02:59 |
| diddledan | I guess eff must be hosted by nephoscale? | 02:59 |
| penguin42 | that makes it too easy | 02:59 |
| diddledan | yeah the IP of eff.org is a nephoscale owned IP | 03:00 |
| diddledan | so it's timing out because the actual server dropped the connection rather than telling me I got there | 03:01 |
| === zmoylan-1i is now known as zmoylan-pi | ||
| map | hi all | 04:37 |
| zmoylan-pi | tis quiet | 05:35 |
| diddledan | mmhmm | 05:47 |
| diddledan | ello map | 05:47 |
| zmoylan-pi | and listening to outside a break in the last 3 days of rain | 05:50 |
| map | ello | 05:55 |
| map | where abouts in uk zmoylan-pi ? | 05:55 |
| zmoylan-pi | dublin, ireland. | 05:55 |
| map | ah | 05:56 |
| map | rained here again | 05:56 |
| map | big bang theory then sleep for me | 05:56 |
| zmoylan-pi | forgot to convert to smaller format for tablet. will wait till later | 05:58 |
| zmoylan-pi | a 70mb file rather than 170mb is good enough and fits a more to my media drive | 05:58 |
| map | what you converting big bang|? | 06:00 |
| zmoylan-pi | i usually get them, convert them, watch them and add them to media drive till i get the dvd and rip a better copy | 06:01 |
| map | ah | 06:01 |
| map | need to start on new series of arrow soon | 06:06 |
| * zmoylan-pi is watching season 1 of b5 | 06:11 | |
| map | b5? bablyon 5? | 06:14 |
| map | never seen it | 06:14 |
| zmoylan-pi | yup | 06:15 |
| map | there's a new chan 4 series called Babylon saw the pilot months ago and they finally starting airing eps | 06:15 |
| zmoylan-pi | it changed sci fi. it was what made ds9 so much better than tng. turned sci fi from episodic to arc based | 06:15 |
| map | never seen either pf them | 06:16 |
| map | i prob should | 06:16 |
| zmoylan-pi | hanging out in a linux chatroom and never seen ds9... | 06:16 |
| * zmoylan-pi shakes head sadly at kids today :-p | 06:16 | |
| map | ;] | 06:17 |
| zmoylan-pi | stargate sg1? | 06:18 |
| map | nope;p | 06:19 |
| map | got a lot o tv to watch eh | 06:19 |
| map | but il burn through them fast its easy when series are finished..watched all of arrow s1 in a week the wire 1-4 in a few | 06:20 |
| daftykins | stargate \o/ | 06:20 |
| zmoylan-pi | well trek is a LOT of tv. tos, lite, tng, ds9, voy, ent plus movies | 06:20 |
| map | im off to sleep | 06:22 |
| map | 725am here | 06:22 |
| map | night all:P i guess you two havent slept yet | 06:22 |
| map | unless you got up suoer early on a sat heh | 06:22 |
| zmoylan-pi | i slept... yesterday afternoon i think | 06:22 |
| map | eva longorias so hot..just watching brooklyn nine nine again | 06:26 |
| brobostigon | morning boys and girls. | 10:05 |
| diddledan | morning?! | 10:05 |
| diddledan | wtf? it's daylight! | 10:05 |
| diddledan | how did that happen? | 10:05 |
| brobostigon | morning diddledan | 10:06 |
| brobostigon | well several factors caused it to happen, diddledan | 10:06 |
| popey | morning all | 10:24 |
| brobostigon | morning HRH popey | 10:25 |
| popey | morning aquarius | 11:06 |
| aquarius | ohai popey | 11:07 |
| * popey moves | 11:07 | |
| aquarius | I don't suppose anyone knows Objective C, do they? | 11:07 |
| aquarius | bah. I am trying to translate about five lines of it into some sort of sane language and can't :) | 11:13 |
| diddledan | pastebinit | 11:14 |
| aquarius | https://github.com/nto/AirSpeaker/blob/master/AirTunes/AirTunesController.m#L286 | 11:15 |
| aquarius | specifically: what happens if fply_header[6] == 1? | 11:15 |
| aquarius | I do not get what lines 297-302 are doing | 11:15 |
| diddledan | that looks to just be taking a byte array and marshalling it into an NSData object | 11:17 |
| aquarius | OK. I *believe* from this that "content" is the stuff that the remote site POSTed to us | 11:17 |
| aquarius | line 301 does... what? I *think* it gets 1 byte from content and puts it in fply_2 at position 13? | 11:18 |
| aquarius | (er, it gets one byte from content at position 14, i.e., the 14th byte of content, and it copies it to fply_2, overwriting fply_2's 13th byte?) | 11:19 |
| aquarius | line 302 then just marshals fply_2 into an NSData object, I think. | 11:20 |
| aquarius | but line 301 is the bit I don't get | 11:20 |
| diddledan | apple's nsstring reference doesn't list a getBytes:length method | 11:26 |
| diddledan | oh, it's range | 11:27 |
| diddledan | let me try looking for that | 11:27 |
| diddledan | oh, that'll be why - it's an NSData | 11:27 |
| diddledan | ok, 286 is taking from the content object 12 bytes and stuffing them into fply_header | 11:30 |
| diddledan | then 301 is taking fply_id_range-length of bytes out of content (now that the header has been removed in 292) and stuffing it into fply_2 starting at offset 13 (starting at 0) | 11:32 |
| diddledan | offset 13 is the 14th byte | 11:32 |
| diddledan | looks like the fply_id_range specifies to take the 14th byte out of the original data (after the header has been removed) and the fply_2 + 13 says to stuff it in the same offset in fply_2 | 11:36 |
| aquarius | hang on, the first 12 bytes of content are *removed*? | 11:36 |
| aquarius | diddledan, can you write python? if you can, do you fancy writing those few lines in python for me so I can follow along? :) | 11:37 |
| aquarius | the square bracket stuff in objc confuses the hell out of me :) | 11:37 |
| diddledan | no I think I got that wrong - it looks to just stuff the header into the payload NSData object - I saw the subdata and assumed it was slicing | 11:38 |
| diddledan | nope it's not even doing that | 11:39 |
| diddledan | NSRange is weird | 11:39 |
| aquarius | hence why I am confused ;) | 11:39 |
| diddledan | it specifies an offset AND a length | 11:39 |
| diddledan | so 288 thru 292 is taking the data in *content and extracting the bytes into *payload WITHOUT the header | 11:40 |
| diddledan | and then 297 thru 301 are doing a single byte copy of the protocol's ID byte and plopping it into a prepared byte-array (*data) | 11:42 |
| diddledan | sorry, not *data I mean fply_2 | 11:43 |
| diddledan | I Was skipping ahead | 11:43 |
| diddledan | the line 302 then creates a pointer to fply_2 and stores it in an NSData object called data | 11:44 |
| diddledan | that's purely so that it can be sent to the replyOK:withHeaders:withData function | 11:44 |
| aquarius | *nod* | 11:44 |
| aquarius | so, basically, at the end of it, data is (I think) an exact copy of fply_2 except that its 14th byte has been overwritten by the 13th byte of content? Is that right? | 11:45 |
| diddledan | I _think_ it's 14th with 14th | 11:46 |
| diddledan | it takes location "12 + 2" from content and copies it into "fply_2 + 13". I'm not entirely sure if either or both of those are indexed from 0 or 1 | 11:48 |
| diddledan | I hate binary wire protocols | 11:49 |
| diddledan | :-p | 11:49 |
| diddledan | why can't we all use UTF-8?! | 11:49 |
| aquarius | that's apple for you :) | 11:51 |
| aquarius | I'll give a few things a try and see if I get somewhere :) | 11:53 |
| diddledan | ok, I gotta head out now. I might be back later | 11:55 |
| aquarius | diddledan, cheers, pal! | 11:55 |
| YaManicKill | So, my friend just set up a fresh ubuntu server install, and gave me an account on it. However, using the details they sent me (they even added my ssh key) I can't log in. Where should I look for if soemthing is blocking me from getting in apart from the ssh config, and hosts.deny | 12:09 |
| aquarius | YaManicKill, if you add lots of -v options to the ssh command it may give you a clue where it's being denied? although you may have tried that | 12:11 |
| YaManicKill | Yeah, that's not giving me anything useful. | 12:14 |
| YaManicKill | It tried the ssh key, and just says "Next authentication method: password" ... etc | 12:15 |
| aquarius | also, check /var/log/auth.log on the server, I think | 12:15 |
| aquarius | does the vvvvv stuff show that your public key is being offere and rejected? | 12:16 |
| YaManicKill | Yep | 12:17 |
| YaManicKill | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nhvJ95Dw | 12:17 |
| aquarius | auth.log on the server may have clues as to why you are denied, but if you can't ssh in, you can't see it, surely? | 12:18 |
| YaManicKill | Yeah, but I've got it from the friend who can get onto the server. | 12:19 |
| YaManicKill | The weird thing is...she *can* connect using the info she gave me :-\ | 12:19 |
| aquarius | can you try connecting to there using the same info but from another server? | 12:21 |
| aquarius | like, find an ssh account you've got somewhere else and ssh to there, then ssh from there to the server you're trying? | 12:21 |
| YaManicKill | Yeah, tried that. | 12:21 |
| YaManicKill | Same issue. | 12:21 |
| aquarius | and it doesn't work? | 12:21 |
| aquarius | is she successfully connecting with a key, or with a password? | 12:22 |
| YaManicKill | password | 12:23 |
| YaManicKill | This is the only thing out of the ordinary I see: Nov 15 06:40:50 poketrades sshd[10069]: error: Could not load host key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_ed25519_key | 12:24 |
| aquarius | are you sure you're spelling the username right? | 12:24 |
| aquarius | migth wanna poke /etc/ssh/sshd_config on the server and change the logging level a bit higher and then connect again | 12:25 |
| YaManicKill | I keep asking her that I am spelling it right, and she says yes. | 12:26 |
| YaManicKill | should I stick it to debug? | 12:27 |
| foobarry | yes, and check the chmod settings | 12:27 |
| aquarius | might wanna go to VERBOSE | 12:28 |
| aquarius | and then DEBUG later if VERBOSE doesn't help | 12:28 |
| YaManicKill | ok | 12:28 |
| YaManicKill | foobarry: chmod for what? | 12:28 |
| foobarry | if you create .ssh | 12:28 |
| YaManicKill | ah good call | 12:28 |
| foobarry | it usually doesn't create the directory with correct settings for ssh keys | 12:28 |
| aquarius | that can't be the problem though, because it would occur to anyone using those credentials to connect, and it doesn't occur with your friend | 12:29 |
| foobarry | ah, you're doing host key auth rather than pub/priv user keys? | 12:29 |
| YaManicKill | No no, it's pub/priv | 12:31 |
| YaManicKill | erm, what should .ssh be? | 12:31 |
| foobarry | : Could not load host key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_ed25519_key | 12:31 |
| foobarry | why's it doing that ? | 12:31 |
| YaManicKill | :-\ | 12:31 |
| foobarry | if its user key then you can write a 5 lines script | 12:32 |
| foobarry | check if .ssh exists, then make it | 12:32 |
| foobarry | chmod 700 .ssh | 12:32 |
| foobarry | wget http://siojsoidjf.com/ya.pub | 12:33 |
| foobarry | cat ya.pub >> .ssh/authorized_keys | 12:33 |
| foobarry | chmod 600 !$ | 12:33 |
| foobarry | the other day my ssh broke because something/someone mysteriously changed my home dir to 777 | 12:35 |
| YaManicKill | .ssh/authorized keys was read only, could that be part of the issue? | 12:35 |
| foobarry | dont think so | 12:36 |
| foobarry | check your pub key is correct format and is in there | 12:36 |
| foobarry | loko for acidental carriage returns | 12:37 |
| aquarius | the pub key can't be the problem, though, because password auth doesn't work either, right, foobarry? | 12:37 |
| aquarius | er, right, YaManicKill | 12:37 |
| YaManicKill | yeah | 12:38 |
| foobarry | could be a bunch of reasons :S | 12:41 |
| YaManicKill | sh-rsa | 12:43 |
| YaManicKill | I don't know if fixing this will allow me to login, but that's certanarily an issue :-P | 12:43 |
| YaManicKill | \o/ works | 12:45 |
| foobarry | ah, a typo in auth keys? | 12:49 |
| aquarius | yay! | 12:52 |
| zmoylan-pi | the sense of triumph after a bug/glitch/error is eliminated | 12:58 |
| YaManicKill | heh, yeah | 12:59 |
| YaManicKill | Alright...seeing as you guys are so good...why are my ssh session so damn slow? | 12:59 |
| YaManicKill | My internet isn't shocking (it is bad, but not this bad) | 12:59 |
| YaManicKill | I tend to get about a 10 second delay between keypresses. | 13:00 |
| zmoylan-pi | as long as it's counteracted by the 'how the flip did i do something so stupid' :-p | 13:00 |
| foobarry | where is the server | 13:00 |
| foobarry | also, now change your password on the server, since your psasword is not what u tought it was | 13:00 |
| YaManicKill | foobarry: yeah, done :-P | 13:01 |
| foobarry | run top on the server | 13:01 |
| YaManicKill | Server is NY, but I also have one in London and it has the same issue. | 13:01 |
| foobarry | what the common ground:? | 13:01 |
| foobarry | your client machine: | 13:01 |
| foobarry | ? | 13:01 |
| YaManicKill | Yeah | 13:01 |
| zmoylan-pi | could it be you then? | 13:02 |
| foobarry | got another device on your home internet | 13:02 |
| foobarry | you can test from? | 13:02 |
| YaManicKill | I'm sure it could...but what? It's no the connection, because I'm sending messages here and they appear <1s | 13:02 |
| foobarry | got a different terminal app? | 13:03 |
| foobarry | xterm? | 13:03 |
| YaManicKill | from my phone on the same connection, it seems just as slow :-\ but, I'm talking like 10 second delays between me typing and it appearing on the server...doesn't that seem totally ridiculous? | 13:08 |
| YaManicKill | 10 seconds if I'm lucky, I just got a 30 second delay there | 13:08 |
| markie- | it is ridiculous but it is also a safe distance | 13:09 |
| markie- | ask youtself how close you really want to get | 13:10 |
| YaManicKill | eh? | 13:14 |
| markie- | :) | 13:15 |
| popey | YaManicKill: mtr to the server. | 13:25 |
| popey | YaManicKill: also, let us know the IP so we can mtr, might be your isp | 13:25 |
| popey | (not your connection, but a routing problem in your isp) | 13:26 |
| YaManicKill | uhm what is mtr? | 13:28 |
| popey | like traceroute | 13:28 |
| popey | but better | 13:28 |
| popey | http://paste.ubuntu.com/9025196/ | 13:29 |
| popey | e.g. | 13:29 |
| popey | thats me doing mtr bbc.co.uk | 13:29 |
| YaManicKill | oh, cool | 13:29 |
| YaManicKill | the server is hq.porygon.co | 13:29 |
| popey | ah, so digitalocean box? | 13:30 |
| YaManicKill | yup yup | 13:30 |
| popey | i see lots of packet loss at tclo-ic-2-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net | 13:30 |
| popey | you on virgin ? | 13:31 |
| YaManicKill | no, I'm on plusnet | 13:31 |
| popey | k | 13:31 |
| popey | http://paste.ubuntu.com/9025228/ | 13:31 |
| popey | thats what I see | 13:31 |
| YaManicKill | On stupidly slow connection. | 13:31 |
| popey | ooh, lunch, biab | 13:31 |
| YaManicKill | interesting, thanks popey | 13:31 |
| YaManicKill | interestingly, mine doesn't show any packet loss | 13:36 |
| YaManicKill | Oh tell a lie, I see some..but not much at all. | 13:36 |
| zmoylan-pi | i see 2 lines with ??? which is interesting | 13:38 |
| zmoylan-pi | and when i do it again only 1 line with ??? but 57% packet loss on one hop... http://paste.ubuntu.com/9025301/ | 13:40 |
| Azelphur | out of curiosity, does anyone have any suggestions on how not to have to buy cans of compressed air? | 13:42 |
| Azelphur | some kind of reusable solution | 13:42 |
| zmoylan-pi | what are using them on? | 13:42 |
| Azelphur | zmoylan-pi: what else? computers | 13:42 |
| zmoylan-pi | yes, but internally or just keyboards? | 13:43 |
| Azelphur | internally | 13:43 |
| zmoylan-pi | so cigarette lighter gas on a powered on pc is RIGHT out :-p | 13:43 |
| Azelphur | lol | 13:44 |
| zmoylan-pi | but could be used in a pinch and well ventilated area to clean keyboard | 13:45 |
| Azelphur | zmoylan-pi: but you'd need to compress it | 13:46 |
| zmoylan-pi | but can be picked up cheaper than compressed air cans in discount stores if this was purely a money saving exercise | 13:47 |
| Azelphur | pretty much, I feel silly buying ... air | 13:48 |
| zmoylan-pi | http://www.canlessair.com/ | 13:49 |
| Azelphur | that looks like exactly what I want :D | 13:50 |
| * zmoylan-pi is still waiting for site to tell how it works... | 13:50 | |
| zmoylan-pi | and $109... | 13:51 |
| zmoylan-pi | no wait cheap original version... $70 http://www.canlessair.com/store/p/26-Canless-Air-System-O2-Hurricane.html | 13:52 |
| Azelphur | so basically the same as 10 cans of compressed air | 13:52 |
| Azelphur | seems reasonable | 13:53 |
| zmoylan-pi | with a battery rated for 500 charges | 13:53 |
| Azelphur | oh, I was just about to say why 500 | 13:53 |
| Azelphur | so you can probably replace the battery \o/ | 13:53 |
| zmoylan-pi | or mount a replacement externally if you want to cheap out :-) | 13:53 |
| zmoylan-pi | one pc we had above an engineering workshop used to suck in metal dust from the air and short out. we ended up putting a new pc in a pair of tights at the location. worked fine if dust is a problem. but you have to more careful with modern air cooled pcs | 13:55 |
| Azelphur | yea | 13:55 |
| Azelphur | zmoylan-pi: I just find that I often need a can of compressed air and never have one because my previous one has always ran out | 13:55 |
| zmoylan-pi | that's why you carry 2. one that is in use and one that has never been used so you always have >1 can of air | 13:56 |
| Azelphur | hehe | 13:56 |
| zmoylan-pi | of course you look like a plonker with an air fixation... :-) | 13:56 |
| Azelphur | :D | 13:57 |
| zmoylan-pi | you just tell people you're prepared in the event your office is ever attacked by sharks... | 14:00 |
| Azelphur | haha | 14:00 |
| * zmoylan-pi puts jaws onto tablet for later viewing as it's been ages... | 14:01 | |
| Azelphur | zmoylan-pi: sadly it looks like the canless air system is pretty weak compared to compressed air :( | 14:14 |
| zmoylan-pi | back to google... | 14:14 |
| Azelphur | still might be an option, something to consider for sure :) | 14:14 |
| zmoylan-pi | http://www.technibble.com/review-datavac-bests-compressed-air-hurricane-cleaning-pc-dust/ | 14:15 |
| Azelphur | yea I seen that, sadly they don't make/sell them any more | 14:16 |
| zmoylan-pi | in stock... http://www.amazon.com/Metro-Vacuum-ED500-500-Watt-Electric/dp/B001J4ZOAW | 14:16 |
| Azelphur | interesting | 14:16 |
| Azelphur | maybe a goer :( | 14:16 |
| Azelphur | :)* | 14:16 |
| aquarius | given three machines on the same wireless network (mine, at home; I am not invading anywhere), if boxA makes an http request to boxB, how can I dump the contents of that request and response on boxC? | 14:26 |
| awilkins | boxC would need to be on the route somewhere | 14:27 |
| aquarius | ah. darn. | 14:28 |
| popey | why does it need to be on box c? | 14:42 |
| popey | can you not do the dump on a or b? | 14:42 |
| Azelphur | aquarius: if you have a decent router you can do it from there, I occasionally use my router and tcpdump to look at traffic going in/out of my Android devices | 14:43 |
| aquarius | popey, because box a is an iphone and box b is my screencast dongle | 14:45 |
| aquarius | Azelphur, ah, that would have been a good idea. Don't think my bt home hub will do that, though :) | 14:46 |
| aquarius | hm, I can just pretend to be the iphone and talk to the dongle, can't I? | 14:46 |
| Azelphur | aquarius: solution: don't have a crappy bt home hub :P | 14:46 |
| Azelphur | you can get openwrt capable routers pretty cheap now days | 14:46 |
| * aquarius grumbles. the dongle never replies. Wonder what I'm doing wrong? | 15:01 | |
| bigcalm | Good morning peeps :) | 15:52 |
| bigcalm | popey: splashed out on a Samsung HW-H355 soundbar from Tesco. It sounds so sweet in my tiny office now :) | 15:54 |
| ali1234 | aquarius: disable wireless isolation and use wireshark | 15:57 |
| ali1234 | you can pretend to be the iphone once you know what the iphone is sending... | 15:58 |
| ali1234 | assuming box C is a ubuntu machine, you can plug it in to the home hub with a cable, and then put the wifi card in to AP mode, and then connect the A and B to that AP, then you can see all traffic easily | 16:00 |
| zmoylan-pi | the bt speakers are excellent except most of the time i want to listen to radio on phone so need headset as aerial anyway :-) | 16:31 |
| zmoylan-pi | /w3/w3 | 16:45 |
| brobostigon | could you create a pam rule, to specify that insted of needing a password for sudo, youd need a yubikey? | 16:58 |
| brobostigon | presuming said person is on the suoers list. | 16:58 |
| brobostigon | sudoers* | 16:58 |
| ali1234 | you could definitely write a PAM module to do that, if there isn't one already | 17:05 |
| ali1234 | PAM = pluggable authentication modules, stuff like that is what it is for | 17:05 |
| ali1234 | https://developers.yubico.com/yubico-pam/ | 17:05 |
| brobostigon | yes, i looked at that, and got it working, but only want it to apply to sudo'able actions not for all authentication system wide. | 17:14 |
| ali1234 | why? | 17:17 |
| ali1234 | you can just sudo -s | 17:17 |
| ali1234 | i suspect you can say "only use this module for sudo" with pam, that's not a specific yubikey question though... let me have a google | 17:18 |
| popey | bigcalm: is it on your desk under your monitor? | 17:42 |
| ali1234 | brobostigon: apparently the pam_timestamp module is used only for sudo, it's the thing that allows you to use sudo without authenticating again if you already used it in the past 5 minutes | 17:45 |
| ali1234 | so i'd say look at how that works | 17:45 |
| ali1234 | so apparently you just need to put a rule in /etc/pam.d/sudo | 17:48 |
| * penguin42 returns from his local LUGs 20th birthday meeting | 18:14 | |
| zmoylan-pi | did you blow someones mind and casually return a slackware 1 install on 30 5.25" disks? :-) | 18:15 |
| penguin42 | hehe no, although there was a suggestion we should see what we could get booting in VMs sometime | 18:16 |
| === MonsterKiller_ is now known as MonsterKiller | ||
| === tsimpson_ is now known as tsimpson | ||
| hutch | Hi everyone | 19:02 |
| SuperEngineer_ | hmm... keep getting "SuperEngineer is already in use...". Who's the damn pretender & on what channel I wonder?! [If this were twitter I'd end with #bludgeon-the-imposter ! ] | 19:04 |
| hutch | SuperEngineer_: try doing /msg NickServ identify <password> | 19:06 |
| hutch | in the server window | 19:06 |
| SuperEngineer_ | hutch - thanks - guessed the secound bit! :D ] | 19:06 |
| hutch | lol | 19:07 |
| SuperEngineer_ | just gonna log off & back in [yet again] | 19:09 |
| TheBlackRussian | Hello guys, can you help me | 19:24 |
| TheBlackRussian | hello? | 19:25 |
| TheBlackRussian | Finding it hard that this own is filled with people yet no one is replying nor chatting with each other. | 19:26 |
| aquarius_ | you may want to say what you'd like help with. | 19:26 |
| m0nkey_ | TheBlackRussian, most people are away or not looking. Just state your question. Wait and somebody might reply. | 19:27 |
| === DanChapman_ is now known as DanChapman | ||
| TheBlackRussian | I have screen artifacts issues which can seen here 0 down vote favorite https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpb8f40hfjsg9w0/Screenshot%20from%202014-11-09%2019%3A54%3A13.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fkzv64cpkpf7qqk/Screenshot%20from%202014-11-09%2019%3A54%3A30.png?dl=0 | 19:29 |
| TheBlackRussian | how do i fix | 19:29 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: What graphics card/chip? | 19:34 |
| TheBlackRussian | intel q35 | 19:35 |
| penguin42 | hmm, don't think there's any alternate driver you can try for that | 19:36 |
| TheBlackRussian | what do you mean | 19:37 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: But yes that does look like a graphics driver bug - what version of Ubuntu (I assume Ubuntu?) | 19:37 |
| TheBlackRussian | ubuntu 14.10. I had ubuntu 14.04 before and i remember the first 2 days i had no screen artifacts | 19:37 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Sorry, not got many good suggestions; I'd report the bug against the xserver-xorg-video-intel package | 19:40 |
| TheBlackRussian | what do you mean? | 19:40 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Well, you should report the bug properly using the ubuntu-bug command | 19:41 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: But I don't have many good suggestions how to fix it, if 14.04 works that's probably your best bet | 19:41 |
| TheBlackRussian | How long will it take before a solution is found because i dont want these ugly screen artifacts to occur every 10 minutes. Also after installing Ubuntu 14.04 for the first 2 days it worked flawless until the 3rd day | 19:42 |
| TheBlackRussian | after the 3rd day screen artifacts started to appear | 19:43 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Sorry, can't say how long it'll take to find a solution - I don't work on it, and it depends if you get lucky | 19:43 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Did the artifacts only start after an update? | 19:43 |
| TheBlackRussian | to be honest with you i dont have a clue, most likely probably | 19:44 |
| SuperEngineer_ | hmm... can't stop this! Sorry to annoy y'all with all those logon/logoffs... guess I'm gonna have to get used to being SuperEngineer_ for a while! | 19:44 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: OK, I'd take it back to 14.04, don't do any updates, and see if it works for a few days | 19:45 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: If it keeps working then you need to do updates manually and figure out just which update breaks it, because then you can say to people exactly which thing breaks it, because then it's much more likely to get fixed | 19:45 |
| SuperEngineer_ | [but y'all know I'm actually SuperEngineer - so what the heck ;) | 19:45 |
| penguin42 | prove it | 19:46 |
| zmoylan-pi | and you've unscored to prove the point... :-) | 19:46 |
| SuperEngineer_ | [still gonna bludgeon the interloper though ;) ] | 19:46 |
| TheBlackRussian | woah woah you want me to down grade? | 19:46 |
| TheBlackRussian | it will take ages to set it up | 19:46 |
| zmoylan-pi | *underscored | 19:46 |
| SuperEngineer_ | penguin42, Easily proved - I'm the daftest bugger on this channel ;) | 19:47 |
| penguin42 | SuperEngineer_: No way! | 19:47 |
| SuperEngineer_ | yes way | 19:47 |
| SuperEngineer_ | hang on - am I seeing netsplit here - could that be the reason??? | 19:48 |
| TheBlackRussian | fair enough penguin i will downgrade but how i get rid of ubuntu 14.10 | 19:50 |
| penguin42 | SuperEngineer_: I'm not seeing anything here, but it might depend on the servers you're on | 19:51 |
| SuperEngineer_ | in fact - just in case - I'm going down b-maybe try again tomorrow & see if I'm the real me | 19:51 |
| SuperEngineer_ | bfn | 19:51 |
| TheBlackRussian | Guys guys, i have a new question: How do i get rid of Ubuntu 14.10 and install Ubuntu 14.04 | 19:54 |
| arsenip | start from scratch :p | 19:55 |
| arsenip | anyone use gmail for personal domains? tempted to move to gmail for hosting (security/redundancy etc) | 19:56 |
| TheBlackRussian | how can i start from scratch when all my hard drives had been divded up to install ubuntu 14.04 | 19:56 |
| arsenip | not sure i understand. if you have 14.10 installed, you can install 14.04 over it using the same partitions | 19:57 |
| === MooDoo is now known as Guest70650 | ||
| TheBlackRussian | by installing 14.04 over 14.10 everything about 14.10 will be removed correct? | 20:02 |
| arsenip | you can format the partitions - but you need to be careful to pick the correct partitions (if you have other data on there). If you do have other data and you're unsure - defintely back it up first. | 20:03 |
| aquarius_ | Ubuntu also allows you to install a new version while keeping your home folder intact, although I do not know if that applies to installing an older version over a newer one. | 20:04 |
| TheBlackRussian | okay thank you | 20:04 |
| zmoylan-pi | it should offer to allow you to replace the existing ubuntu partition i think | 20:04 |
| === xnox_ is now known as xnox | ||
| foobarry | aquarius_: port mirroring is possible on good switches | 20:05 |
| foobarry | re: your a->b question | 20:05 |
| TheBlackRussian | if i format the drive which has ubuntu 14.10 in it, does it mean i have to create drives again | 20:05 |
| aquarius_ | foobarry, yeah. However, I have been banging my head against this all afternoon (I don't have a good switch, sadly), and now it's just putting my blood pressure up:) | 20:05 |
| foobarry | i've done it before to plot netflows | 20:06 |
| foobarry | all the traffic destined for b, also mirrored on c so you can gather data | 20:06 |
| foobarry | also, Azelphur do you use compressed air for cleaning? | 20:06 |
| foobarry | cleaning inside PCs, or keybiards etc | 20:07 |
| foobarry | 2 other options are to buy a HEPA filtered vacuum cleaner | 20:08 |
| zmoylan-pi | problem with vacuum cleaners is that they can generate static electricity which is bad when hoovering inside a pc. | 20:11 |
| === stgraber_ is now known as stgraber | ||
| foobarry | run netcat on hostc | 20:12 |
| aquarius_ | foobarry, um? | 20:18 |
| === roht is now known as wadzi | ||
| Azelphur | foobarry: I've heard a compressor with a water filter on it is very good | 21:37 |
| TheBlackRussian | Question: After being told to reinstall Ubuntu 14.04 by penguin to try and rid of my ubuntu screen artifacts which i did, THE PROBLEM IS STILL THERE. | 22:48 |
| TheBlackRussian | Its horrible seeing screen artifact ruin my desktop | 22:49 |
| zmoylan-pi | a hardware fault that's just developed? | 22:49 |
| TheBlackRussian | hardware fault? | 22:49 |
| zmoylan-pi | i'd try live distros to see if it manifests | 22:50 |
| zmoylan-pi | wonky video ram a bunch of other things depending on the 'artifact' | 22:50 |
| TheBlackRussian | whats a live distros? Do you mean try Ubuntu without CD? | 22:50 |
| TheBlackRussian | and a wonky video ram <- What do you mean by that? | 22:51 |
| zmoylan-pi | the disk you install most modern distros from or usb allow you to run the distro without installing it | 22:51 |
| TheBlackRussian | I tried it, worked flawless. Than the installed Ubuntu, screen artifact happens | 22:52 |
| zmoylan-pi | wonky video ram = faulty video ram. i've seen systems run with just tiny flaws in video ram causing errors | 22:52 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Something else you might want to try; another reinstall with 14.04 but make sure you untick the 'update during installation' box in the installer, just to make sure it's not pulling in any updates that are breaking things (or alternatively do the instlal without network connected) | 22:52 |
| TheBlackRussian | you could have told me that before i reinstalled ubuntu eariler on | 22:53 |
| TheBlackRussian | also i think when i typed in my ram in one of the drivers i didnt add all of my ram | 22:54 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: True, sorry - but there again I've not hit someone who had this problem before | 22:54 |
| zmoylan-pi | it looked like the upgrade to 14.10 was the problem earlier and that the problem would go away by falling back to 14.04 | 22:55 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Hmm that thing about not adding all your RAM - best thing maybe is to boot into a memory test program (memtest86 I think it's on most Linux install CDs) and leave it running for a few hours | 22:55 |
| zmoylan-pi | ^this | 22:56 |
| TheBlackRussian | what does memory test program do? And also i downgraded to 14.04. As i started eariler when i tried Ubuntu without installing it i had no problems what so ever. I was using it for over 1 hour before i installed ubuntu fully. | 22:56 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Memory test program tests for faulty memory | 22:56 |
| TheBlackRussian | can i still use my desktop | 22:57 |
| TheBlackRussian | when doing the test | 22:57 |
| penguin42 | not while that's running | 22:57 |
| TheBlackRussian | and it takes a few hours to complete the test? | 22:57 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: The longer it runs the more thorough the test | 22:58 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: Start it running before you go to bed, see if it finds anything by the time you wake up | 22:58 |
| TheBlackRussian | give me 2 mins, i be back on "use ubuntu without installing it" to see if the problem is there was well | 22:59 |
| ali1234 | what does the artifact look like? | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | foo | 23:00 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpb8f40hfjsg9w0/Screenshot%20from%202014-11-09%2019%3A54%3A13.png?dl=0 was the link he sent earlier | 23:01 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: Driver or hardware, difficult to say | 23:01 |
| ali1234 | looks like some pixels are offset there | 23:02 |
| ali1234 | or swapped | 23:02 |
| penguin42 | yeh, it's a bit odd | 23:02 |
| ali1234 | look at the right side of the building | 23:02 |
| penguin42 | yeh | 23:03 |
| ali1234 | a group of 8 pixels has been horizontally swapped | 23:03 |
| ali1234 | with the ones immediately next to it | 23:03 |
| ali1234 | or maybe 16 pixels | 23:03 |
| ali1234 | that doesn't seem like something that could be caused by a hardware fault | 23:03 |
| TheBlackRussian | before i do that memory test you suggested do you have any other solutions to fix this issue | 23:03 |
| ali1234 | it would require 1 bit of the address bus to be inverted | 23:04 |
| ali1234 | this seems like an issue with textrure compression algorithms or something | 23:04 |
| ali1234 | so i'm going to say driver fault | 23:04 |
| TheBlackRussian | what do you mean driver fault | 23:05 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: Yeh, most likely, but broken RAM could prboably do it as well, but I'd have expected it to fail quicker | 23:05 |
| zmoylan-pi | that looks more gpu than video ram to my mind. maybe a more conservative video setting | 23:05 |
| ali1234 | i don't see how a hardware failure could swap over two memory locations like that | 23:05 |
| ali1234 | bits generally get suck on or off, but not inverted | 23:06 |
| ali1234 | i guess anything is possible though | 23:06 |
| TheBlackRussian | could, at the moment im using "try ubuntu with installing" and i dont see no screen artifacts | 23:07 |
| TheBlackRussian | *could meant to be confused | 23:07 |
| ali1234 | how long does it normally take before you see them and does it get worse over time? | 23:07 |
| TheBlackRussian | 5 minutes | 23:07 |
| TheBlackRussian | and yes it gets worse | 23:07 |
| ali1234 | okay, give it 10 minutes at least on live CD then | 23:07 |
| TheBlackRussian | to the point i want to through my computer out the window | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | if you see nothing after, say, half an hour, then you are seeing a driver bug | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | what version are you using? | 23:08 |
| zmoylan-pi | isn't the live distro more cautious at hardware probing than a regular install? | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | not really | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | there is only one intel driver | 23:08 |
| zmoylan-pi | intel drivers are usually fairly bulletproof | 23:09 |
| ali1234 | heh, no | 23:09 |
| TheBlackRussian | the last time i threw my computer at the window was when bt cut my internet off in the middle of a porn video | 23:09 |
| ali1234 | i'm looking at FDO bugs but there's hundreds of graphics corruption bugs on intel at the moment | 23:12 |
| TheBlackRussian | after that i refused to pay they god damn bill and told them to shove a pig up they arseholes. | 23:13 |
| TheBlackRussian | then they sent some man to collect my bill so i paid up | 23:13 |
| TheBlackRussian | if this was in russia i would have chase him out and rob him | 23:14 |
| ali1234 | ah ha | 23:14 |
| ali1234 | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=56003 looks familiar? | 23:14 |
| ali1234 | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45092 | 23:14 |
| ali1234 | o_O | 23:14 |
| lubotu3 | Freedesktop bug 45092 in DRM/Intel "[965GM] broken swizzling in swap-in/out paths/L-shaped memory swizzling" [Normal,Needinfo] | 23:14 |
| ali1234 | !ohmy | 23:14 |
| lubotu3 | The main Ubuntu channels require that you speak in calm, polite English. For other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList | 23:14 |
| TheBlackRussian | https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpb8f40hfjsg9w0/Screenshot%20from%202014-11-09%2019%3A54%3A13.png?dl=0 | 23:15 |
| TheBlackRussian | that was my old desktop | 23:15 |
| TheBlackRussian | i dont see russia in the languages | 23:16 |
| TheBlackRussian | *russian | 23:16 |
| ali1234 | well the good news is your computer isn't broken | 23:18 |
| ali1234 | the bad news is "hardware issue that remains unsolved" | 23:18 |
| ali1234 | there is a patch, but you would have to compile loads of stuff | 23:18 |
| TheBlackRussian | as long as i can see my girl in the desktop background in clear beauty than i dont mind | 23:19 |
| ali1234 | here's another one: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28813 | 23:22 |
| ali1234 | seems to be a common problem | 23:22 |
| lubotu3 | Freedesktop bug 28813 in DRM/Intel "[GM45] broken swizzling in swap-in/out paths/L-shaped memory swizzling" [Normal,Assigned] | 23:22 |
| TheBlackRussian | by installing this patch it gets rid of the screen artifact correct? | 23:23 |
| ali1234 | maybe | 23:23 |
| TheBlackRussian | so how do i install this | 23:23 |
| ali1234 | depends if it is the right patch for your graphics card | 23:23 |
| TheBlackRussian | intel q35 | 23:23 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: Ah that does look like it doesn't it | 23:24 |
| ali1234 | that is your motherboard chipset | 23:24 |
| ali1234 | i don't know which GPU it has, the documentation is unclear and everything has to have multiple different code names of course | 23:24 |
| TheBlackRussian | you want my gpu too | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | apparently it is GMA4100 | 23:26 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: It's a bit odd though, they're ancient bugs - I wonder why it only affects some Intel users | 23:26 |
| ali1234 | sorry, GMA3100 | 23:26 |
| ali1234 | because they have a different code path for every chipset? | 23:26 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: Possible, I didn't think they were that uncommon though | 23:26 |
| TheBlackRussian | the computer im using is from russia was made by a russian just to let you know. They dont know how to make computers mostly likely the guy was drunk when making my computer | 23:27 |
| ali1234 | aparently it is also something to do with swapping | 23:27 |
| ali1234 | "Note though that it's unclear from the documentation what this bit exactly does, and it has the potential to corrupt system memory (and not just graphics stuff). So I highly advise you to try this on a throw-away disk/installation." nice. | 23:28 |
| ali1234 | yet another: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46178 | 23:29 |
| lubotu3 | Freedesktop bug 46178 in Driver/intel "[GM965] screen corruption after suspend/resume" [Minor,Resolved: duplicate] | 23:29 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: Hmm possibly related to memory setup on the machine, so might explain why it doesn't affect all of us intel users | 23:29 |
| TheBlackRussian | is it worth noting i dont see any screen artifact after 26 mins of using "try ubuntu without installing". Also i dont mind trying the things you provide as long as it doesnt KILL MY COMPUTER. | 23:29 |
| ali1234 | TheBlackRussian: well, all i can do is repeat to you what the bug reports say | 23:30 |
| ali1234 | i don't know much about intel graphics, i don't use it | 23:30 |
| ali1234 | in order to test this stuff you would need to recompile the kernel from source, it isn't and easy or fast thing to do | 23:30 |
| TheBlackRussian | trust me man, im russian. A russian can do anything. What do i have to do to fix this crap | 23:31 |
| ali1234 | whatever it says on the bug reports... | 23:31 |
| penguin42 | In that case I'm sure they can read bug reports | 23:31 |
| TheBlackRussian | no they cant read english, where does it say the steps to do the patchs | 23:32 |
| ali1234 | it doesn't, it just says "test this patch" | 23:33 |
| TheBlackRussian | where does it say that? | 23:33 |
| TheBlackRussian | i dont see what your seeing | 23:36 |
| ali1234 | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45092#c30 | 23:36 |
| lubotu3 | Freedesktop bug 45092 in DRM/Intel "[965GM] broken swizzling in swap-in/out paths/L-shaped memory swizzling" [Normal,Needinfo] | 23:36 |
| TheBlackRussian | im on it, now where it does say "test this patch" | 23:37 |
| ali1234 | in the final comment | 23:37 |
| ali1234 | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=81971 is the patch | 23:37 |
| TheBlackRussian | okay today is alien to me. How do i install | 23:38 |
| ali1234 | you get the source code for ubuntu kernel, apply the patch, then rebuild it | 23:38 |
| ali1234 | then build a deb and install it | 23:38 |
| TheBlackRussian | my friend, i seriously confused. What is source code? what is ubuntu kernal? how do i apply the patch? how do i rebuild it? how do i build a deb and how do i install it? | 23:39 |
| ali1234 | the documentation for that is here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile | 23:39 |
| ali1234 | i told you it wasn't easy... | 23:39 |
| TheBlackRussian | it is easy my friend, now tell me what do i do it | 23:40 |
| TheBlackRussian | im just testing you, you know | 23:40 |
| TheBlackRussian | is it worth saying my computer froze for 2 seconds, afterwards screen artifact appeared. This is try ubuntu without installing by the way | 23:42 |
| TheBlackRussian | is that good? | 23:43 |
| ali1234 | not really. | 23:43 |
| TheBlackRussian | is that really bad? Because i want to get rid of this bloody screen artifact | 23:44 |
| ali1234 | no, it just means you can't keep using an old version until they fix it | 23:46 |
| TheBlackRussian | im using a old version or do i have to use a old versiob | 23:48 |
| TheBlackRussian | *verison | 23:48 |
| ali1234 | you're using 14.04 live cd right? that is an old version | 23:49 |
| TheBlackRussian | i got it from the ubuntu website | 23:50 |
| TheBlackRussian | plus its a usb | 23:50 |
| TheBlackRussian | *its on a usb | 23:50 |
| ali1234 | doesn't matter | 23:50 |
| TheBlackRussian | whats the latest verison | 23:50 |
| ali1234 | 14.10 | 23:51 |
| TheBlackRussian | so i must try to REINSTALL 14.10 AGAIN? Is that what your saying my friend. | 23:51 |
| ali1234 | no, it won't work | 23:51 |
| ali1234 | you must recompile kernel (any version) with the patch from intel developers | 23:52 |
| TheBlackRussian | and how do i do that | 23:52 |
| ali1234 | follow the instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile | 23:52 |
| TheBlackRussian | looks scary plus i dont know what to do | 23:53 |
| TheBlackRussian | While it is a learning experience to compile your own kernel, you will not be allowed to file bugs on the custom-built kernel (if you do, they will be Rejected without further explanation). | 23:54 |
| TheBlackRussian | Reasons for compiling a custom kernel You are a kernel developer. You need the kernel compiled in a special way, that the official kernel is not compiled in (for example, with some experimental feature enabled). You are attempting to debug a problem in the stock Ubuntu kernel for which you have filed or will file a bug report. You have hardware the stock Ubuntu kernel does not support. You love comput | 23:54 |
| ali1234 | such is life :( | 23:54 |
| ali1234 | "You are attempting to debug a problem in the stock Ubuntu kernel for which you have filed or will file a bug report." <- this is you | 23:55 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: It's odd, are any of those fdo bugs suggesting the fix is upstream - they seem quite old | 23:55 |
| ali1234 | no, and the final comment about testing is from one month ago | 23:55 |
| penguin42 | oh, that's not too bad I guess | 23:55 |
| TheBlackRussian | how do i fix this problemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm | 23:55 |
| penguin42 | ali1234: Acttually, that bug is very good, Chris Wilson is one of the Intel graphics devs I remember, so if someone does test that patch it's got a good chance | 23:56 |
| ali1234 | the patch itself is 18 months old | 23:57 |
| ali1234 | might not even apply on a recent kernel | 23:57 |
| TheBlackRussian | so how do i fix my problem | 23:58 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: I'm sorry there is no known fix, there is a possible fix for someone who knows how to build kernels | 23:59 |
| penguin42 | TheBlackRussian: If you can't build a kernel, then I'm sorry, but you'll have to live with the bug | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
