[00:00] the last slide is a tad silly, but the rest of it gets the point across reasonably well [00:02] funny to see borderlands listed as an example [00:02] GG went ape over borderlands TPS acknowledging the existence of lesbians [00:02] been meaning to buy it, but haven't played it yet :) [00:02] "SJW INFILTRATION! VIDYA ARE DOOMED!" etc [00:02] it's fun co-op [00:03] directhex: heh, I'm not GG, I'm the neutral ass as previously mentioned :) [00:03] borderlands is our main husband-and-wife game. we're on TPS now. [00:03] no problem with the lesbian thing (in fact I couldn't really care less, I'd probably skip the cut scene so I could get back to shooting things) [00:03] the cut scenes are the most entertaining part of that game really [00:04] hehe [00:04] the shooting is okay but it gets boring after about 10 hours [00:04] it gets boring, solo. it's much more fun co-op [00:04] directhex: also being the neutral ass, I do have some points on the opposite side though, that chick from Soul Caliber is just ridiculous [00:05] which one? [00:06] ali1234: Ivy [00:06] Azelphur, some of those examples on your link are ridiculous. i think it's probably fair to say http://i2.listal.com/image/469481/936full-x--blades-cover.jpg is not a representation designed by a woman to make women feel empowered [00:06] looks like something you'd expect to find in your average BDSM magazine xD [00:06] blanes? [00:06] directhex: of course it isn't, games in general aren't supposed to be designed for that. [00:07] Azelphur, it's not just ivy in soul calibur. http://www.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/soul-calibur-boobs.jpg [00:07] Azelphur, what do you mean? [00:07] directhex: games aren't meant to be designed to make a woman feel empowered [00:07] that's...not a games function [00:08] (why doesn't this toaster make me a coffee, dammit!) [00:08] Azelphur, games are about feeling powerful and you getting your way. for the most part. [00:08] uwot [00:09] Azelphur: for some reason i want to say "because you... haven't modded it before" in the voice of Lawrence Fishburne from The Matrix #1 [00:09] directhex: no, games are about fun [00:09] daftykins: haha [00:09] Azelphur, games are about whatever the designer wants them to be. [00:09] and winning is fun [00:10] how many games end on an entirely negative note? i can think of a few. [00:10] directhex: true, but most games certainly aren't about feeling powerful and getting your own way [00:10] I'd love to hear how that applies to some of the most popular games (such as, say 2048) [00:10] survival horror isn't [00:10] I guess you're a real macho man if you can get that 2048 down ;) [00:10] "most popular games" [00:10] now we're bringing web puzzles into it? that;s disingenuous and you know it [00:10] oh, console games? [00:11] directhex: wait, are you making the argument that you're not a real gamer if you play web games? [00:11] AAA. platform doesn't really matter [00:11] directhex: how about the most recent game me and all of my friends have purchased and been playing [00:11] TableTop simulator, real macho. [00:11] ali1234, i'm making the argument that abstract puzzle games don't really feature in discussions of player portrayal [00:12] oh ok, Puzzle games are out, lets see here... [00:12] what about a game like FTL? [00:12] ali1234: indeed, macho :P [00:12] i love that game, but only on easy [00:12] * penguin42 still hasn't got 2048 [00:13] Azelphur, it was your graphic. i didn't see any puzzles on it. [00:13] directhex: you know what we should be fighting against rather than "there's this one game where a girl has ridiculously big boobs on" [00:13] http://xkcd.com/322/ <-- this crap [00:13] that's the kind of crap I clamp down on, on my game servers, and we have a bunch of regular female players who enjoy it, so I'd say I'm doing something reasonably well. [00:13] ali1234, FTL doesn't portray gender in anything. your crew are male or female, as you see fit. which is great for a game where you're building your own story [00:15] because that crap makes you feel far less welcome in the community, than a game having some girl with big boobs in it. [00:15] at least, in this neutral asses opinion. xD [00:16] Azelphur, active sexism is indeed bad. and policing it to make people feel more welcome is great [00:16] directhex: I do so in a neutral manner, if I saw the same crap being thrown at a guy I'd take the same response, but of course that pretty much never happens [00:16] (although it has happened, amusingly) [00:17] but yea, as far as it goes now days most games are fairly gender-irrelevant [00:18] not AAA games [00:18] again, it depends. and especially not in AAA [00:18] but nearly all of those are terrible anyway [00:18] well lets take a look at my steam library [00:18] most sexism is thoughtlessness, not evildoing. [00:19] Amnesia (I think the main player is a guy? dunno), Blur (No sexes), Burnout (No sexes), Counter-Strike (Male characters, but meh), FTL (no sexes), Skyrim (Admittedly has some minor things), L4D + 2 (Both sexes, gender neutral), ... [00:20] and that's just the top few games I play on my steam library [00:20] I think overall we're pretty good [00:21] of the AAA games in my library, Counter Strikes, L4D, Portal, Trine 2, TF2, all of them are pretty ok [00:22] counter-strike? really? [00:22] or tf2? [00:22] guess i have to ignore this channel for the rest of the evening ;) [00:22] directhex: go on xD [00:22] sorry, daftykins [00:22] hehehe, dw [00:22] daftykins: haha [00:23] I feel kinda like pandora [00:23] diddledan: YOU HAVE OPENED THE BOX AND SHALL RECEIVE MY USUAL RANT. [00:24] directhex: I don't see how counter-strike or TF2 can be objectifying women, they don't even have any women in them. XD [00:25] isn't pyro supposed to be a woman? [00:25] ali1234: nobody knows XD [00:25] someone came in #ubuntu the other day and claimed HL3 was confirmed, i know the term is a meme in a way but i still had a quick read online :( [00:25] Azelphur, objectification is one issue amongst several. CS is a good example, since (e.g.) there are women in the real IDF and FBI (cs:go), and most of the operative groups of the earlier games too [00:26] but not in the game [00:26] directhex: so the issue is that the game only has male characters? [00:26] you can chose a model T in any colour, as long as it's black [00:27] Azelphur, it's one issue. games disproportionately feature only male avatars. there are women in GIGN, why aren't they playable in CS? [00:27] directhex: right, gotta flip the operands then in order to remain neutral? are we also angry that there are games that only have female playable characters? [00:28] Azelphur, can you name 3 from 2014? [00:28] well, can you name a AAA game with only female characters? [00:28] directhex: I don't think I can name 3 games from 2014 period tbh [00:28] I'm not that up to speed :) [00:28] 2013? [00:28] ali1234: Tomb Raider [00:28] sweet! just closed 4 issues from my current project which were preventing go-live [00:29] tomb raider clearly has too much fan service [00:29] directhex: honestly I don't have a great deal of knowledge on the latest games, or their release dates, I just notice games I like the look of and play them. [00:30] just need to test in IE10 and 11 now [00:30] IE9 is okish [00:30] Azelphur, you;d struggle, even if you were well versed on the topic [00:30] Azelphur, i don't think i can name 3 female-protag-only games in 2014. [00:30] directhex: well I'm not struggling to name triple A games with only female characters. [00:30] IE9 will suffice. I'm not concentrating any more time to making it look good there [00:30] the only ones i can think of are fan service games [00:30] Azelphur, okay. name the three that come to mind for you. [00:30] but, even if I was, that's not the point [00:30] directhex: tomb raider, portal (1 and 2), mirrors edge. [00:30] there's 4 for ya [00:31] want some more? [00:31] Metroids another [00:31] ones that have more than one player character [00:31] portal has a female computer! why must all computers be female?! [00:31] haha [00:31] tomb raider from 2013, or are you going for the whole franchise? [00:31] at least the canonical computer wasn't female. aka hal9000 [00:31] directhex: I was going for the whole franchise I guess, I haven't played tomb raider since the playstation 2 :) [00:32] directhex: none the less, the existence of games that only have female characters wasn't the point [00:32] the point was, if it's unacceptable for there to be games with only male character(s), it should also be unacceptable if you flip the operands. [00:32] if it isn't, you're by definition being sexist :) [00:33] i used the word "disproportionately". the problem isn't there being games with only one playable gender, it's needing to go back to 2007 to name 4 of them. [00:33] directhex: *shrug* I probably need to go back to 2007 to name any games [00:33] as I say, I don't keep up to date [00:33] me too [00:34] what's that game where everyone hated the ending? [00:34] mass effect 3? [00:34] I haven't owned a console since the PS2, and as you can see by my games library, it's all not the latest stuff https://steamcommunity.com/id/Azelphur/games/ [00:34] yeah that [00:34] ali1234: ah yea because of the guy love or something :) [00:34] I giggled at how uppity everyone was getting. [00:34] I think my newest AAA game is probably trine 2 [00:35] well, in that game you can pick whether the player character is male or female right? [00:35] which is circa 2011 xD [00:35] I expect for some having men love men in a game is as bad as having a woman that isn't in a bikini [00:35] ali1234, in mass effect? yes. [00:35] but all the NPC don't change [00:35] diddledan, for some. mass effect was banned in singapore due to gayness. [00:35] directhex, joy [00:36] ali1234, right. bioware is extremely well regarded on the topic of gender portrayal, actually [00:36] that really is sucky [00:36] so do feminists approve of that game then? [00:36] that flipping the operands thing works great for being really level headed and neutral, I use it all the time in my head. [00:36] ali1234, by and large, yes. [00:36] it's a great sorta morality/equality check [00:36] it helps that jennifer hale is the better voice actress. [00:36] they did all the lines twice? [00:36] yes. [00:37] well, half of them i guess [00:37] but the player is only ever referred to as their surname [00:37] hehehe, I apparently played Need for speed undercover more than I did Skyrim, I wonder if this makes me a bad gamer. [00:37] so that doesn't change with gender [00:37] and they're "they" not "her" or "him". they're clever to avoid needing anyone in the world to care about gender. other than for romance chains. [00:38] quick, break out the zhe [00:39] GTA has never had a female PC right? [00:39] ali1234, right. [00:39] assassin's creed never had one [00:39] ali1234, ac3: liberation, on vita [00:39] i can't think of any other AAA games [00:39] which is an ac game starring a black woman, and is mostly about slavery. it's interesting. [00:40] directhex: you also mentioned earlier that there are select gamers who are, I guess extremists really [00:40] the ones who harass people [00:41] sure [00:41] and yup, those guys are total nutjobs [00:41] and people doing harassing who aren't even gamers. [00:41] exactly, that really grinds my gears [00:41] I can't remember that one girls name who has been kicking up a right fuss [00:41] who admits she doesn't even play games [00:42] and then there was the whole thing where she claimed people were threatening her and that she had to leave but never filed a police report [00:42] whole thing stank of BS [00:42] i think you have a rose-tinted view of how things are in 2014 though. it's not a quest to destroy all games forever, it's saying "how come in hitman absolution, male assassins wear pressed suits & female assassins working for the same employers are latex bondage nuns?" [00:42] Azelphur, those points aren't actually true fwiw. [00:42] * Azelphur shrugs [00:43] you're thinking of media critic anita sarkeesian. who *did* file a report (but GG is loud & claimed she didn't, so that's the reality that many believe) [00:43] I see, and yea, it's certainly very loud :) [00:44] directhex: that and the other point is that I get death threats on a weekly basis, welcome to being popular on the internet. [00:44] and she said she didn't play many AAA games, once, in 2010. she's clearly got a better grasp of games than most of GG, and has shared family photos of her on the family SNES etc. so i think that's just a trumped up "look, she's an outsider charge to try & discredit her [00:44] Azelphur, with your home address? [00:44] directhex: yup [00:44] I've had proper creepy "I know where you live" shit :) [00:45] my response is usually "Hey, come by, we'll have tea and crumpets" [00:46] did you hear about the 4chan murder, recently? [00:46] It's just a reality of being popular, there are nutjobs out there [00:46] there's a difference between being told "I know where you live" and "I'm going to go round and **** her. ps. she lives at 123 actual address" [00:46] directhex: there seem to be a lot of nutjobs who happen to use 4chan [00:46] i didn't, go on? [00:47] but yea, I didn't :) [00:47] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29932268 [00:48] oh yeah, i did hear about that [00:48] crazy [00:48] but yea, there was also some guy who got murdered for taking a sword in a video game [00:48] there are crazy people out there, don't let them get to you / stop you doing things. [00:49] seriously, don't let them get to you. or you've had it too [00:49] in yankland, those crazy people are armed [00:49] well yea that too :P [00:49] directhex: not like they don't have weapons here too, admittedly not guns [00:50] but still fairly equal in the you're probably going to die range [00:50] are samurai swords allowed in the UK? (e.g. as ornaments which can "accidentally" be used to aggressively cut a guy's head off because he smiled at you) [00:51] diddledan: yea they are, I have multiple friends who have them [00:51] cracray [00:52] lol, "shirtgate" [00:52] hehe [00:52] o_O [00:54] i thought it was "shirtstorm" [00:55] and that guy's been totally ripped apart. he did something dumb at just the wrong time, i guess. [00:58] props to him if the video apology was genuine [00:58] if it had been me, i would have worn the same shirt in the apology video [00:59] yeah, he looked crushed. but he has thousands of people attacking him, at the apex of his career & the culmination of decades of work. i feel sorry for the guy [00:59] he did a dumb thing, he's sorry. that should really be the end of it [01:00] what did he do? [01:00] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-30055278 ? [01:00] he did a press conference for the comet probe, wearing a shirt printed with women in latex bondage gear [01:01] which is pushing "casual work attire" a little bit further than most people would agree was workplace-appropriate [01:01] * penguin42 now wants to know if that's his normal shirts or he put it on specially [01:02] I know what it's like tho - I wore a "budweiser" tee unthinking to a place where there might have been alcoholics [01:02] might have been - i.e. likely [01:03] this is a good example of my comment above [00:18] most sexism is thoughtlessness, not evildoing. [01:03] it'd be lovely if people left the guy alone to do some sciencing now [01:03] I agree - it's the same for a lot of things - if people didn't highlight the accident it wouldn't be an issue for anyone, but some people enjoy pointing out things like that [01:04] bit of a flaw to social network i guess, allowing these bandwagon jumpers to be united [01:04] *networking [01:05] right, as soon as twitter gets involved is the point where i stop caring [01:05] it's got to be said though as shirts go, it's one of the worst choices for being non-offensive [01:05] brown shirt with a black arm band would have been worse, i think [01:05] probably true [01:06] penguin42, he won't have thought beyond "this shirt looks cool and colourful" [01:07] "i work with women scientists, maybe they might be uncomfortable at me wearing a gallery of boobies at them" won't have been a consideration, due to aforementioned thoughtlessness [01:07] directhex: Yeh, I'm sure he didn't pick it to be offensive, but still that's pretty dumb, you don't buy a shirt like that and not realise it'll cause offense to some people [01:08] penguin42, apparently it was a gift from a designer friend of his. she's not entirely pleased at the reaction to her work [01:08] oops. [01:09] directhex: Hehe, pointing out it was a gift from a lady does help a bit :-) But still, I'm sorry it's obvious it would cause offence to people [01:09] this is where double standards come into play because I can foresee some folk will read that it was made by a woman and say "oh well it's ok then because she's a woman" [01:10] some women are okay with that kind of thing. some don't. it's basic human decency to ask yourself if you're potentially making your co-workers uncomfortable with your behaviour, which includes the way you dress [01:10] did anyone actually ask any of his co-workers? [01:10] i think co-workers might be upset if i came in my leather bondage harness instead of jeans & t-shirt [01:11] directhex, oh, I didn't know you were a deviant. nice to learn. ;-) [01:12] i think http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/post/50432219744/special-guest-edition-the-hawkeye-initiative-irl is my favourite primer on the idea of accidentally hostile work environments [01:16] now, i should totes be in bed [01:16] oh wow 1am, didn't even notice [01:16] we were having SO MUCH FUN talking about GAMERGATE and SOCIAL JUSTICE [01:16] * directhex foams at the mouth a bit [01:17] i don't get it, why can't we have both posters? [01:17] directhex: what's scary is i don't doubt you own said harness [01:18] ali1234, we absolutely can. but originally only ruby underboob existed. and nobody in seniority considered that it might be inappropriate for that to be the case [01:18] I love both those pictures [01:19] it's a cute, humorous, and harmless way to diffuse the "i work in an office surrounded by semi-naked women on the walls and it makes me uncomfortable" issue [01:25] right. BED FOR REAL SO MUCH ZOMG [01:28] just read that through, quite amusing :) [01:28] impressively grounded boss to respond so [01:30] lol: https://twitter.com/jordansissel/status/533421480047312897 [01:33] I didn't recognise that at first, my browser displayed it as an emoticon like with a face [01:33] that's what it is supposed to do... [01:33] it's a pile of poo with eyes [01:34] right, 💩 [01:34] hmm, my hexchat doesn't like that [01:34] (windows) [01:35] tl;dr "pile of poo" is a unicode character [01:36] no actual font i've ever seen has it [01:37] twitter converts it to an image for display [01:37] ali1234: It's apparently in the symbola font [01:37] os x does it [01:37] I think it might be a hook though rather than font support [01:37] yeh fc21 does it [02:16] hmm, routing hickup on vm [02:29] vm is definitely having problems [02:29] oh dear [02:30] it had a hickup about 20mins ago, and most stuff seems to be OK, but some stuff hmm [02:30] traceroutes to imgur.com seem to die, but are fine from another host [02:31] I have a vm connection I can try with [02:32] looks like I die within virgin at 3 hops to imgur.com [02:32] seems oddly specific doesn't it [02:32] oh, maybe I don't [02:32] 4 timed-out hops, and then three more [02:33] three more responding hops [02:33] now more timing out hops [02:33] diddledan: manc-core-2a-xe-1022-0.network.virginmedia.net, pres-core-2b-ae16-0.network.virginmedia.net know-geam-1b-pc200.network.virginmedia.net wb7301b.network.virginmedia.net and that's it [02:34] yup, I'm getting to wb7301b too [02:34] with a not responder between manc-core and pres-core [02:34] interesting that we're both hitting the same router [02:34] well it's bubbled around and eventually hit the way it thinks it's supposed to get there [02:35] i could give you a Channel perspective ;) [02:35] doubt it'd be much use mind 8D [02:35] I go to winchester? then brent? (I'm interpreting the hostnames as I see fit) before several timeouts then pres-core and beyond the same as you [02:36] why the hell do you end up at pres-core - I'm assuming pres-core is Preston [02:36] yeah, I thought that too [02:36] Manc-Pres makes some sense [02:37] I think virgin's internal routes are broke [02:37] diddledan: any thoughts on the dd command by jakesyl in #ubuntu ? '/dev/rdisk1' looks suspect to me, or is that standard naming in mac land? [02:37] yeh that's rawdisk on mac/bsd [02:37] i'm thinking about the mistake between /dev/sdx1 vs /dev/sdx for image writing [02:38] ah, so it's irrelevant to partitions? fair enough [02:39] yup, rdisk1 is the un-buffered/filtered disk-level - partitions are like: /dev/rdisk1s1 [02:39] where s means "slice" [02:40] diddledan: Looks like they fixed it [02:40] slice is the way that bsd refers to what the rest of the world calls a partition because in bsd-land you would slice up your disc with one or more bsd slices (and any other oses) and then partition the bsd slice for bsd filesystem segregation such as swap, root, home etc [02:41] diddledan: Although I'm curious if you still go up to preston to get routed back down through London [02:41] same first three hops [02:41] 4, 5, 6, and 7 still time out as before [02:42] and now I'm up in preston, with the same three hops from the failed trace, but then go to nrth-bb-1b-xe-618-0.network.virginmedia.net followed by london and out onto level3 [02:43] seem to be timing out after the level3 hop [02:43] this is the last that responded: ae-11-vl-3101.edge3.London2.Level3.net (4.69.202.170) [02:45] diddledan: Yeh [02:46] diddledan: But imgur stuff actually responds now, oh there's some switching going on, a traceroute I just did has shown it going via cogentco.com rather than Level3.net [02:46] I love watching bgp simulations [02:46] although given the last one is shown as lhr01 I guess that's the packets being put on a plane [02:47] it's a shame I don't have access to the bgp routing table to make my own [02:47] lol [02:52] * diddledan tries again [02:53] still trying to go out level3 for me [02:54] diddledan: Yeh, flipped back :-) [02:54] heh, their routing must be really screwed if it's flipping [02:55] I'm guessing their NOC team have been rudely awakened [02:57] trying a random name that I'm expecting to not have an edge-cache in ISPs - got to cogentco.com's routers (8 of them!) then nephoscale.net [02:57] now timeouts [02:57] this is to eff.org [02:57] but I seem to be able to connect to it OK [02:58] odd [02:58] diddledan: I assume that the 'know-' address is Knowsley (liverpool) - virgin list it as an office site, the remaining ones though are too cryptic [02:59] lol @ hostname: 18 SiliconValley_WebHosting.demarc.cogentco.com (38.112.9.214) [02:59] I guess eff must be hosted by nephoscale? [02:59] that makes it too easy [03:00] yeah the IP of eff.org is a nephoscale owned IP [03:01] so it's timing out because the actual server dropped the connection rather than telling me I got there === zmoylan-1i is now known as zmoylan-pi [04:37] hi all [05:35] tis quiet [05:47] mmhmm [05:47] ello map [05:50] and listening to outside a break in the last 3 days of rain [05:55] ello [05:55] where abouts in uk zmoylan-pi ? [05:55] dublin, ireland. [05:56] ah [05:56] rained here again [05:56] big bang theory then sleep for me [05:58] forgot to convert to smaller format for tablet. will wait till later [05:58] a 70mb file rather than 170mb is good enough and fits a more to my media drive [06:00] what you converting big bang|? [06:01] i usually get them, convert them, watch them and add them to media drive till i get the dvd and rip a better copy [06:01] ah [06:06] need to start on new series of arrow soon [06:11] * zmoylan-pi is watching season 1 of b5 [06:14] b5? bablyon 5? [06:14] never seen it [06:15] yup [06:15] there's a new chan 4 series called Babylon saw the pilot months ago and they finally starting airing eps [06:15] it changed sci fi. it was what made ds9 so much better than tng. turned sci fi from episodic to arc based [06:16] never seen either pf them [06:16] i prob should [06:16] hanging out in a linux chatroom and never seen ds9... [06:16] * zmoylan-pi shakes head sadly at kids today :-p [06:17] ;] [06:18] stargate sg1? [06:19] nope;p [06:19] got a lot o tv to watch eh [06:20] but il burn through them fast its easy when series are finished..watched all of arrow s1 in a week the wire 1-4 in a few [06:20] stargate \o/ [06:20] well trek is a LOT of tv. tos, lite, tng, ds9, voy, ent plus movies [06:22] im off to sleep [06:22] 725am here [06:22] night all:P i guess you two havent slept yet [06:22] unless you got up suoer early on a sat heh [06:22] i slept... yesterday afternoon i think [06:26] eva longorias so hot..just watching brooklyn nine nine again [10:05] morning boys and girls. [10:05] morning?! [10:05] wtf? it's daylight! [10:05] how did that happen? [10:06] morning diddledan [10:06] well several factors caused it to happen, diddledan [10:24] morning all [10:25] morning HRH popey [11:06] morning aquarius [11:07] ohai popey [11:07] * popey moves [11:07] I don't suppose anyone knows Objective C, do they? [11:13] bah. I am trying to translate about five lines of it into some sort of sane language and can't :) [11:14] pastebinit [11:15] https://github.com/nto/AirSpeaker/blob/master/AirTunes/AirTunesController.m#L286 [11:15] specifically: what happens if fply_header[6] == 1? [11:15] I do not get what lines 297-302 are doing [11:17] that looks to just be taking a byte array and marshalling it into an NSData object [11:17] OK. I *believe* from this that "content" is the stuff that the remote site POSTed to us [11:18] line 301 does... what? I *think* it gets 1 byte from content and puts it in fply_2 at position 13? [11:19] (er, it gets one byte from content at position 14, i.e., the 14th byte of content, and it copies it to fply_2, overwriting fply_2's 13th byte?) [11:20] line 302 then just marshals fply_2 into an NSData object, I think. [11:20] but line 301 is the bit I don't get [11:26] apple's nsstring reference doesn't list a getBytes:length method [11:27] oh, it's range [11:27] let me try looking for that [11:27] oh, that'll be why - it's an NSData [11:30] ok, 286 is taking from the content object 12 bytes and stuffing them into fply_header [11:32] then 301 is taking fply_id_range-length of bytes out of content (now that the header has been removed in 292) and stuffing it into fply_2 starting at offset 13 (starting at 0) [11:32] offset 13 is the 14th byte [11:36] looks like the fply_id_range specifies to take the 14th byte out of the original data (after the header has been removed) and the fply_2 + 13 says to stuff it in the same offset in fply_2 [11:36] hang on, the first 12 bytes of content are *removed*? [11:37] diddledan, can you write python? if you can, do you fancy writing those few lines in python for me so I can follow along? :) [11:37] the square bracket stuff in objc confuses the hell out of me :) [11:38] no I think I got that wrong - it looks to just stuff the header into the payload NSData object - I saw the subdata and assumed it was slicing [11:39] nope it's not even doing that [11:39] NSRange is weird [11:39] hence why I am confused ;) [11:39] it specifies an offset AND a length [11:40] so 288 thru 292 is taking the data in *content and extracting the bytes into *payload WITHOUT the header [11:42] and then 297 thru 301 are doing a single byte copy of the protocol's ID byte and plopping it into a prepared byte-array (*data) [11:43] sorry, not *data I mean fply_2 [11:43] I Was skipping ahead [11:44] the line 302 then creates a pointer to fply_2 and stores it in an NSData object called data [11:44] that's purely so that it can be sent to the replyOK:withHeaders:withData function [11:44]