=== psivaa-holiday is now known as psivaa === fabo_ is now known as fabo === Guest4725 is now known as balloons === balloons is now known as Guest12343 === Guest12343 is now known as balloons_ [15:03] * Laney arrives back just after time [15:03] !dmb-ping [15:03] bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping [15:03] o/ [15:03] \o [15:04] o/ [15:04] oh, i forget that UK is in-line with UTC this half of the year. [15:04] * xnox grabs coffee [15:04] at a sprint today so only kinda around, sorry [15:05] Who's chairing? [15:06] bdmurray / xnox [15:07] Laney: why two chairs? =) or is bdmurray not around? [15:08] stgraber: is bdmurray sprinting with you? [15:08] xnox: nope [15:09] I didn't see him say anything yet [15:10] #startmeeting Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 [15:10] Meeting started Mon Nov 17 15:10:32 2014 UTC. The chair is xnox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [15:10] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: [15:10] From roll call - Laney, bdrung_work, ScottK, stgraber and xnox are present. [15:11] absent bdmurray and micahg [15:11] * xnox action to send micahg reminder about meeting and whether he still plans to participate in them [15:11] #action xnox to send micahg reminder about meeting and whether he still plans to participate in them [15:11] ACTION: xnox to send micahg reminder about meeting and whether he still plans to participate in them [15:11] #topic Core Developer Application mitya57 === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Core Developer Application mitya57 [15:11] o/ [15:12] mitya57: hello! How are you today? =) [15:12] Fine, thanks. Though I am on an unreliable wlan connection, so if I suddenly disappear, blame Moscow University wifi :) [15:13] mitya57: gotcha, will prepare the pitch forks [15:13] mitya57: could please introduce yourself and your application today briefly? =) [15:13] :) [15:14] Well, I am Dmitry Shachnev, 20 year old, math student, python/c++/js programmer, etc [15:14] Actually I have prepared something to paste [15:14] Things I will do: [15:14] - Maintaining "my" packages. Look at http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mitya57 [15:14] for the incomplete list of them. [15:14] - Doing changes in other packages that "my" packages need (recent example: [15:14] new gnome-flashback release needed a patch dropped in gnome-menus). [15:14] - Doing some QA work (fixing FTBFS, autopkgtests failures, uninstallable packages, etc). [15:14] - Doing myself and sponsoring syncs, merges from Debian and bug fixes. [15:14] - Continuing my work in l10n and docs teams. [15:14] Things I won't do: [15:14] - Adding Ubuntu delta that is not a fix for important bug to packages [15:15] without existing delta. [15:15] - Include patches that haven't been forwarded, without a heavy reason. [15:15] Things I won't do: [15:15] - Adding Ubuntu delta that is not a fix for important bug to packages [15:15] without existing delta. [15:15] - Include patches that haven't been forwarded, without a heavy reason. [15:15] err [15:15] Things I won't do despite being Qt (co)maintainer: [15:15] - Touch Ubuntu Touch stuff (for now) :) [15:15] - Touch KDE stuff (unless I start using it myself). [15:15] (unless I am asked to do that, once Kubuntu guys asked me to sponsor [15:15] a few uploads for them). [15:15] ✈ EOF [15:16] ^ that needs | uniq [15:17] Actually touch people are a bit better about people uploading that stuff now [15:17] If you see something which FTBFS, then fix/(MP and upload) is valid and I don't think you should be afraid of doing that [15:18] I think if I ever want to contribute to something touch-related, I will go the MP/autoland way instead. [15:19] That's best if you can wait [15:19] s/autoland/CI train/ these days, but core-devs have power to use that anyway [15:20] CI train is what I meant. And MPs usually need to be approved by someone else. [15:20] nod [15:20] FWIW, I've seen enough of mitya57's work that I don't need to ask any questions. [15:21] JFTR, you should also feel completely free to ignore CI train and just upload stuff. [15:24] I'm good now [15:24] mitya57: what's your favourite parts of C++ and JS? least? [15:24] I also am all for mitya57's application, he's doing good stuff in Qt maintainance and working nicely with Debian Qt KDE team too [15:26] xnox: C++. I don't much like programming anything that runs in a browser. [15:26] (though I have to do that many times) [15:26] mitya57: ok. [15:27] #vote should mitya57 be granted core developer status in Ubuntu? [15:27] Please vote on: should mitya57 be granted core developer status in Ubuntu? [15:27] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [15:27] +1 [15:27] +1 received from Laney [15:27] +1 [15:27] +1 received from ScottK [15:27] +1 [15:27] +1 received from bdrung_work [15:27] +1 [15:27] +1 received from xnox [15:28] mitya57, interesting to see Qt and GNOME flashback in the list of packages. [15:29] Qt is something I like a lot (actually I've even contributed ~20 patches upstream), and GNOME Flashback is a thing I was asked to take over by someone else. [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 received from stgraber [15:29] mitya57, what do you run on your desktop? [15:29] GNOME Shell [15:29] #endvote [15:29] Voting ended on: should mitya57 be granted core developer status in Ubuntu? [15:29] Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [15:29] Motion carried [15:30] mitya57: congrats, you are a core dev now =) [15:30] Thanks to you all! [15:30] mitya57: Yes, congratulations. It's about time. [15:30] Good stuff [15:31] I've added you to the team, now. And will deal with other post-meeting things later. [15:31] The first thing I'll do is sponsor my own three items in the sponsorship queue :) [15:31] ;-) [15:31] #topic Any other business === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Any other business [15:31] I put an item on the agenda [15:31] Thanks to xnox for being so fast [15:32] Laney: which is...? "Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney)" not sure what that means? [15:32] Makes sense to me. [15:32] * ScottK says yes. [15:33] * xnox requests verbosity++ [15:33] #topic it and then I'll say [15:33] #topic Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney) === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney) [15:33] Laney: floor is yours [15:33] I don't know how to link to the heading but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess has a section for DDs who want to apply for upload rights to their packages [15:34] Currently you have to be an actual full fat DD [15:34] I was reminded by Laibsch's thread on devel-permissions, as he is a DM, that I wanted to see if we could make this be DM or DD. [15:35] then we could s/Developer/Uploader/ or something [15:35] You can be a skinny DD as well. Beard is not required either. [15:35] #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess [15:35] #url https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess [15:35] #help [15:35] * xnox gives up [15:36] ScottK, you should have told me before growing a beard and eating many sweets. ;) [15:36] I cannot imagine bdrung_work with a beard [15:36] Anyway [15:36] Questions? [15:36] Seems reasonable to me. [15:37] Laney: so looking at current uploading DMs in https://ftp-master.debian.org/dm.txt the list is not that large [15:37] * bdrung_work is fine with expanding the DD PPU to DM [15:38] * ScottK suggests a vote. [15:38] You'll still have to be approved normally one time [15:38] But then can extend it by mail later on [15:38] Yeah [15:38] xnox, this file has 165 persons listed [15:38] Compared to 1,000 DDs, it's not so many. [15:39] bdrung_work: some of them already have PPU rights in Ubuntu or will not want to seek them. [15:39] ScottK: well ~500 or so active. [15:39] True. [15:39] whithin past year. [15:39] what's the concern? [15:40] So, imho any Debian Developer is an Ubuntu Developer. [15:40] however DMs are inherently less trusted within Debian itself. [15:41] They are approximately equally trusted for specific packages however. [15:41] I do not feel that extending DMs to be PPUs is justified as is. There are no gurantees said people pass/know debian policies & procedures (both legal/dfsg and technical) [15:41] The approximation being they can't upload through New. [15:41] how can one assert it would be easy enough for them to pick up Ubuntu quarks? [15:42] from the DMs that I have sponsored, I've been monitoring and spotting clearly broken uploads into Debian. =( [15:42] xnox: If you'd seen some of the "not very good" stuff I see uploaded in Debian as a member of the FTP Team, you'd be much less sanguine about what DDs know. [15:42] (sponsored - that is granted DM rights) [15:42] ScottK: rolf =) [15:42] It's true. [15:42] These people have to go through one round with the DMB [15:42] Laney: yeah, [15:42] at which we will check their understanding of Ubuntu things [15:42] ok. [15:42] I don't have any other questions, is everyone ready to vote on this? [15:43] \o [15:43] I can only think of pocock and now Laibsch who actually take advantage of it atm [15:43] Let's go [15:43] * bdrung_work is ready. [15:44] #vote Extend DD PPU requirement to cover DMs too [15:44] Please vote on: Extend DD PPU requirement to cover DMs too [15:44] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [15:44] +1 [15:44] +1 received from ScottK [15:44] -1 [15:44] -1 received from xnox [15:44] +1 [15:44] +1 received from bdrung_work [15:44] +1 [15:44] +1 received from Laney [15:45] stgraber: ? [15:47] +1 [15:47] +1 received from stgraber [15:48] #endvote [15:48] Voting ended on: Extend DD PPU requirement to cover DMs too [15:48] Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0 [15:48] Motion carried [15:48] * xnox is not sure if this motion is actually carried or not, and whether we need bdmurray and/or micah's vote here [15:48] Laney: ? ^ [15:48] 4x+1 = carried [15:48] yeah [15:48] cool [15:49] thought about it after typing - the outcome is without a daubt. [15:49] My phone just alarmed to remind me about DMB [15:49] so [15:49] Laney, no, +4 in sum is needed [15:49] No [15:49] It's why we can vote on applicants without everyone present [15:50] If something gets to +4 then -3 still leaves you with +1 [15:50] yes [15:51] #topic Any Other Business take #2 === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Any Other Business take #2 [15:51] ....unless we want to continue discussing politics and voting systems [15:51] So did we agree it passed? [15:51] There are 3 threads ongoing, please reply to them [15:52] if someone from the absent members give a +1, it passes [15:52] ScottK: i believe it has passed, as the absolute majority is in favour. [15:52] ScottK: and there is no tie, even with extra votes from bdmurray & mica [15:53] OK. [15:53] I thought so too, but I wanted to make sure there's no confusion. [15:53] bdrung_work seems to disagree. [15:53] Laney: what threats? [15:53] if we use the same voting mechanism that we use for applicant [15:54] bdrung_work: given that we operate on 50%+1 majority (aka 1:1 majority) the outcome is without a daubt, and we do not require an 2:1 majority for applicant voting. [15:54] 1) Laibsch PPU 2) Noskcaj MOTU 3) input-methods packageset [15:54] * bdrung_work has to leave now. [15:55] bdrung_work: however, I'd like to know bdmurray's opinion. [15:55] Laney: isn't 1 & 2 requested to be processed via email [15:55] yes [15:55] * xnox looks at the input-methods packageset [15:55] that's why I said please reply to the threads :) [15:55] i have not actually followed that thread. [15:55] xnox, the +4 requirement was to enable more fine grained declines (by voting +0 or -1) [15:58] Laney: i'll follow up on the email threats later over email. [15:58] ty [15:58] bdmurray: ditto needs follow up on the mailing list. [15:58] i guess that's it for today? [15:58] I think we had a similar conversation about voting systems a couple of years ago [15:58] maybe I remember the outcome wrong [15:58] would be helpful for bdrung to find the conclusion [15:59] (it went to the TB back then) [16:01] meh ok. [16:02] maybe #action him :) [16:02] #action cjwatson: as a returning officer: given 7 voters, and "Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0" collected to date, is the outcome without a doubt or do we need extra +1 votes? [16:02] ACTION: cjwatson: as a returning officer: given 7 voters, and "Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0" collected to date, is the outcome without a doubt or do we need extra +1 votes? [16:02] *cough* or bdmurray could just vote [16:02] a "returning officer"? [16:03] Laney: yes, a standard practice in traditional british voting and polling mechanisms, where ex-members are invited to oversee the process as independent party ;-) [16:04] Haha. [16:04] * xnox thinks cjwatson would be an excellent returning officer given the history of the boards and committees he has been on (including the DMB) [16:04] We could just dig up the old thread [16:04] anyway, we are past the hour, follow up on the irc [16:04] #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology [16:04] Meeting ended Mon Nov 17 16:05:01 2014 UTC. [16:04] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-17-15.10.moin.txt [16:05] thanks for chairing [16:08] Laney: kein problemo, mon senor [16:09] xnox,Laney: no doubt you should dig up the old thread; I'm having trouble seeing how this isn't carried though, unless every motion effectively has some kind of supermajority requirement [16:11] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.technical-board/483 is certainly related [16:16] That's the last message in the thread, so I think it's pretty clearly decided. [16:17] That's him sending it to the CC I think [16:18] but this list archive is private and I don't know where to look for the outcome [16:18] * ScottK takes it as "SABDFL has spoken" so we can move on. [16:19] :) [16:19] BTW, TB vice CC. [16:19] See the message up-thread, the TB decided to have the CC decide [16:20] Oh. [16:21] czajkowski: dholbach: could one of you please read that ^ thread in community-council@ and see if you can find the outcome? [16:21] I'm sure it is in public somewhere but I can't find it [16:23] Laney, there was no further discussion in the thread on the CC list [16:24] Well, I guess that's that then [16:35] \o [16:35] hi! [16:35] * jdstrand is happy to start the meeting nearly on time this week [16:35] #startmeeting [16:36] Meeting started Mon Nov 17 16:36:04 2014 UTC. The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [16:36] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [16:36] The meeting agenda can be found at: [16:36] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting [16:36] [TOPIC] Announcements === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements [16:36] Thanks to Jonathan Riddell (Riddell) who provided debdiffs for lucid-utopic for konversation (LP: #1389296) and debdiffs for precise-utopic for kde-workspace (LP: #1389665). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep our users secure. Great job! :) [16:36] Launchpad bug 1389296 in konversation (Ubuntu Vivid) "konversation: out-of-bounds read on a heap-allocated array" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389296 [16:36] Launchpad bug 1389665 in kde-workspace (Ubuntu Utopic) "privilage escalation in clock kcontrol" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389665 [16:36] [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report [16:36] I'll go first [16:36] jdstrand: got another one coming shortly.. [16:37] hi! [16:37] Riddell: cool, thanks! mention it in #ubuntu-hardened (or just subscribe ubuntu-security-sponsors) and we'll get someone assigned [16:38] so, the good news is I actually got to quite a few updates last week, which was nice [16:39] the PM team wanted to get a couple of policy updates in for rtm though, so between that and some embargoed work, I didn't get to a number of things I set out to do last week [16:39] for this week [16:39] I have more embargoed work [16:39] I'm on triage [16:39] I need to finish up my apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu updates for vivid [16:40] finish the 0.3 click-apparmor upload [16:41] have more click-reviewers-tools updates that came up last week (I did get to a few fixes there, but need to add these new ones) [16:41] I think this is the week for me adding derivative branches support to UCT [16:41] I hope to finish my upstream patch for docker so it can apply policy based on parser capabilities [16:42] and then I will be attending the cloud sprint on wednesday since they are in town [16:42] that sounds like an awful lot-- 3 of those are close to done, so hopefully it is actually doable [16:42] mdeslaur: you're up [16:43] \o [16:43] I'm on community this week [16:43] I'm currently working on sponsoring quassel updates [16:43] I have an embargoed issue to test and release [16:43] and have further updates beyond that, the list is growing again :P [16:43] that's about it, sbeattie, you're up [16:44] I'll go and we can circle back to him [16:45] I need to publish an update for apparmor in trusty today (prep and testing is already done) [16:45] I'll have to knock off all the dust on the instruction manual before doing so [16:46] heh [16:46] tyhicks: is that just for that particular bug, or does it have the tools updates in it too? [16:46] mdeslaur: it is only for that bug [16:46] tyhicks: you mean re-learn the secret handshake :) [16:46] mdeslaur: it'll be going to -security [16:47] ah, right, cool [16:47] mdeslaur: at least this handshake is well documented :) [16:47] after that, my focus for this week will be on fixing bug #1390592 and making the apparmor cache handling code a library [16:47] bug 1390592 in apparmor (Ubuntu Trusty) "'ptrace peer=@{profile_name}' does not work on 14.04 (at least) with docker" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390592 [16:47] both of those were on my plate last week but the apparmor bug kept me from accomplishing much there [16:47] that's it for me [16:47] jjohansen: you're up [16:48] I need to finish up a kernel sync of apparmor for vivid, after which I will get back to working on apparmor stacking [16:48] tyhicks: isn't 1390592 the bug for the trusty update? [16:49] jdstrand: yes - I meant bug #1362469 [16:49] bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469 === txspud` is now known as txspud [16:50] jjohansen: didn't mean to interrupt, please continue [16:50] np [16:51] hopefully I will spend some more time poking at the upstreaming of apparmor's labeling bits this week as well [16:52] that is it for me, sarnold you're up [16:53] I'm in the happy place this week [16:53] last week, on community, otto provided a debdiff for trusty's mariadb-5.5, but I hadn't noticed that utopic didn't already have the 5.5.40 release. So, this week I'll be picking pu the pieces from that update [16:54] I also have two MIRs to work on, thanks for submitting those nice and early in the cycle :) [16:54] and I know there's some outstanding apparmor patches that need review. I'd like to make a sweep through that if there's time left over. [16:54] that's it for me, chrisccoulson? [16:54] sarnold: I didn't pay attention on friday-- did you get to tvoss code review? [16:55] jdstrand: yes, it looked good to me, I had some follow-up questions that I'm curious about but don't warrant blocking that update from being pushed in [16:55] nice, thanks [16:55] sarnold: If you run out of things to do, I'd appreciate help with some updates [16:55] mdeslaur: okay, thanks [16:55] this week, I've got an oxide update (and hopefully chromium too). Will also be reviewing updates to the mediahub branch. Other than that, it's business as usual [16:56] I'm done btw :) [17:00] I need to drop out btw. I've got to go to the chemist to pick up some antibiotics for one of my kids [17:02] chrisccoulson: thanks [17:03] * sbeattie is here [17:05] jdstrand: I can give my status update [17:06] I'm still working on gcc pie-by-default for amd64; I have gcc packages in https://launchpad.net/~sbeattie/+archive/ubuntu/gcc-pie-amd64/+packages along with a rebuilt glibc [17:07] I've been trying local builds against it, but keep running into FTBFS with packages (postgres, ruby, python) that aren't caused by my changes, the original build fails (usually in a testsuite) as well. [17:08] I've rebuilt a couple of packages successfully and verified the binaries are pie on amd64. [17:08] cool [17:08] I need to clean up the gcc patch a bit, and look at its additional testsuite failures. [17:09] Other than that I have some apparmor patches to review. [17:09] That's pretty much it for me. [17:09] jdstrand: back to you. [17:10] [TOPIC] Highlighted packages === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages [17:10] The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. [17:10] See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved. [17:10] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gpw.html [17:10] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/eet.html [17:10] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/icecast2.html [17:10] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/claws-mail-extra-plugins.html [17:11] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xbuffy.html [17:11] [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions [17:11] Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss? [17:16] mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks! [17:16] #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology [17:16] Meeting ended Mon Nov 17 17:16:56 2014 UTC. [17:16] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-17-16.36.moin.txt [17:16] thanks, jdstrand [17:16] thanks! [17:17] thanks jdstrand [17:17] thanks jdstrand! [17:23] jdstrand: thanks! === balloons_ is now known as balloons === balloons is now known as Guest26895 === Guest26895 is now known as balloons_ === med_` is now known as medberry === medberry is now known as Guest50599 === Guest50599 is now known as med_ === liam_ is now known as Guest63751 === balloons_ is now known as balloons === balloons is now known as Guest23152 === Guest23152 is now known as balloons_ === balloons_ is now known as balloons === greyback__ is now known as greyback