[14:59] <hatch> I think jenkins is broken - I can't log in 
[14:59] <hatch> annnnd it works
[14:59] <hatch> of course
[14:59] <rick_h_> hatch: :) 
[14:59] <hatch> I honestly tried to log in about 7 times with it just returning to the login screen
[15:00] <hatch> (man I have issues with login screens today)
[15:04] <hatch> *sigh* ci hung on npm
[15:09] <hatch> so....yeah all ci builds are hanging on npm now
[15:09] <rick_h_> hatch: ugh looking
[15:09] <rick_h_> is npm down?
[15:09] <hatch> just says degraded performance on one of their nodes
[15:10] <rick_h_> probably the one they've let us touch :P
[15:10] <hatch> but I thought that we use an internal cache on ci?
[15:10] <rick_h_> but we'ved got a new CI :)
[15:10] <hatch> ohh right....damn
[15:12] <hatch> maybe degraded performance to them means 'not working' :)
[15:13] <hatch> rick_h_: it would also hang like this if it couldn't get outside the network
[15:13] <hatch> maybe some ports are still closed
[15:24] <rick_h_> the CI machine can get to the outside network. it's things getting in that's firewalled
[15:51] <rick_h_> uiteam call in 10 kanban please
[16:28] <kadams54> uiteam: for those outside the the States, here's an introduction to the craziness that is Black Friday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dIBL4tYQPI
[16:29] <rogpeppe> kadams54: erm, why?
[16:30] <hatch> lol wow
[16:30] <kadams54> rogpeppe: Such an interesting question.
[16:30] <rogpeppe> kadams54: do all the shops have a sale that day?
[16:31] <kadams54> rogpeppe: Superficially, the stores typically offer deep (>50%) discounts on popular items, such as electronics.
[16:31] <hatch> and then keep o ther things at the same price and pretend they are marked down and idiots buy them anywayas
[16:32] <rogpeppe> kadams54: and i guess it's self perpetuating because if one store stops doing it, the others win
[16:33] <hatch> friend of mine used to work for best buy and he said they would make a fortune that day
[16:33] <hatch> because of all the people buying the regular priced stuff
[16:33] <kadams54> rogpeppe: On a deeper level, I kinda wonder how much this is large corporations preying on lower income people, in much the same way that rent-to-own or cash advance businesses do.
[16:33] <kadams54> *how much of this
[16:34] <rogpeppe> kadams54: isn't that what they do all the time anyway?
[16:34] <kadams54> Black Friday sorta amps things up to 11
[16:35] <kadams54> Much like a rent-to-own, the sales seem to put luxury items within reach, hiding the true costs.
[16:35] <hatch> when you say 'lower income people' you make it sound bad
[16:35] <hatch> there are rich people who are also stupid and do that :)
[16:37] <kadams54> True, but I'm guessing lower income brackets are disproportionately represented.
[16:37] <kadams54> It would be an interesting sociological study
[16:38] <hatch> no matter how many 'warning hot' labels you put on coffee you just can't protect everyone from themselves 
[16:38] <hatch> :) 
[16:38] <teslanick> Also, brands/products that tend to be deeply discounted are (often, but not always) low-end. e.g. Apple tends to offer Apple Store gift cards with products instead of directly marking down the prices.
[16:39] <hatch> When I was buying a tv I tracked the prices for a couple months (becuase I'm a nerd) 
[16:39] <jrwren> kadams54: you are probably right. When the ONLY way a person can pay for something they really want is this way, it becomes exploitive.
[16:39] <jrwren> kadams54: the bigger issue is, why do people want these things so badly?
[16:39] <hatch> and often the price only fluctuated by $100 but the 'off by$' fluctuated by many hundreds
[16:39] <hatch> jrwren: you hit the nail on the head there
[16:41] <hatch> peer pressure 
[16:41] <hatch> :)
[16:41] <kadams54> jrwren: Read an article in the WaPo earlier this week about Whole Foods moving into one of Chicago's poorest neighborhoods
[16:41] <kadams54> The relevant quote:
[16:41] <kadams54> “Price point was the Number One, the earliest, the strongest and the longest-lasting argument,” he says of wary residents. “And when you started contextualizing what price point meant in comparison to a $450 hair weave, or $120 sneakers, or $60 for a fifth of alcohol, then price point is not as strong of an argument as it initially was."
[16:42] <kadams54> "price point" here referring to the high price residents would have to pay for Whole Food's typical products.
[16:43] <hatch> $450 hair weave?
[16:43] <hatch> what in the....
[16:43] <kadams54> The guy being quoted is someone who's lived in the neighborhood since 1959, so he can get away with pointing out the oddity of paying $120 for the latest Nikes while balking at $5 eggs.
[16:43] <jrwren> kadams54: ha! hahahahaha.
[16:43] <jrwren> truth is so sad.
[16:43] <kadams54> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/11/14/why-whole-foods-is-moving-into-one-of-the-poorest-neighborhoods-in-chicago/
[16:44] <teslanick> Well, assuming you go through a dozen eggs every two weeks, and you buy new shoes every year, they end up being about the same per-year cost
[16:45] <hatch> lol except you CAN buy shoes for $10 which last the same 
[16:45] <jrwren> $10? no way. $40 maybe. :p
[16:45] <teslanick> Though minor fluctuations in the price of eggs would have a gigantic impact on the per-year cost.
[16:46] <kadams54> teslanick: though I'd argue the eggs (and the other healthy food products) represent a much better investment for improving living standards.
[16:46] <kadams54> Given the drain that poor health can be on a family's income.
[16:46] <hatch> jrwren: seriously $10 shoes are easy to find
[16:46] <kadams54> Apparently hatch only buys flip flops.
[16:46] <hatch> payless shoes
[16:47] <hatch> or whatever it's called
[16:47] <teslanick> kadams54: Agreed. I'm a big fan of the initiative to double the amount of whatever-they're-calling-foodstamps-now when you use them to buy produce or food at a farmer's market.
[16:47] <hatch> they aren't brand new stylish things - but if you can only afford $10 shoes then you'll just have to deal with last years styles lol
[16:48] <teslanick> If you know what you're looking for, you can pick up a nice set of used bucks or some kind of leather boot for $30 that, if you treat them halfway decent, will last forever.
[16:48] <hatch> when they used to have food stamps wasn't there a black market around them for buying smokes/drugs/acohol etc?
[16:48] <jrwren> kadams54: who wants to improve living standards when I can buy RIMS!!! 
[16:48] <kadams54> hatch: Read an article written by an African American woman awhile back on the importance of luxury items for trying to escape poverty.
[16:48] <teslanick> ^
[16:49] <hatch> jrwren: ROFL
[16:49] <kadams54> Her point was that you can't get the decent paying jobs that might open up doors for you and your children unless you have decent looking clothes to get through the interviews.
[16:50] <jrwren> that is true.
[16:50] <teslanick> I would argue that some of that has been co-opted by fashion labels to unproductive ends
[16:50] <kadams54> It mostly pointed out just how stacked the system is.
[16:50] <hatch> I call bs on that
[16:50] <jrwren> I gotta buy the luggs, so I can get dat promotion
[16:51] <hatch> you can have nice/clean clothes without having to spend $200 on jeans 
[16:51] <jrwren> hatch: depends on the environment of the place you are interviewing.
[16:51] <kadams54> hatch: True, but that's a strawman argument.
[16:52] <kadams54> Her inspiration for this article was watching her mom go out and try to land a job.
[16:52] <jrwren> hatch: and when you live in that environment surrounded by poverty, you are more likely to interview at a place wiht the terribad values which we are suggesting.
[16:52] <hatch> yeah ok I could see that
[16:52] <jrwren> "dress for the job you want."   -- guy walks in dressed as batman
[16:52] <hatch> lol!
[16:53] <kadams54> So we're talking about nice dress heels, hosiery, a dress, earrings, necklace, etc.
[16:53] <kadams54> Just to get a job cleaning upper class homes.
[16:53] <hatch> I do recall hearing about a charity that dressed people for interviews
[16:53] <teslanick> Dress for Success
[16:53] <hatch> thought it was a pretty good idea
[16:54] <hatch> but even then there are nice cheap clothes
[16:54] <hatch> maybe it's different here - but we have places which sell second hand clothes
[16:54] <hatch> some of it's pretty good for good prices
[16:55] <jrwren> I considered hiding my 10 yr old car at a job interview once, because a car that old is not the norm.
[16:55] <teslanick> kadams54: I read the same piece, the example is a bit dated though. A big problem is that through population self-sorting and infrastructure degradation, people in poor neighborhoods aren't even exposed to decent labor opportunities.
[16:55] <hatch> haha I used to go on sales calls in my rusted out cutlass 
[16:55] <hatch> it's what I had :)
[16:56] <kadams54> teslanick: yeah, that's one of many systemic problems with overcoming poverty :-)
[16:56] <hatch> had/could afford
[16:58] <hatch> some of our poorer areas are being gentrified by the city
[16:58] <kadams54> hatch: tracking down and assembling good outfits from secondhand stores is time-consuming, which you don't have when you're working three part-time jobs with no transportation.
[16:58] <hatch> this is the truth
[16:58] <hatch> I suppose that circles around to what teslanick said about no decent opportunities 
[16:59] <kadams54> hatch: yeah, the Whole Foods article talked about how the normal process is poor neighborhood -> gentrification -> Whole Foods
[16:59] <kadams54> But in this case Whole Foods comes first and they're not looking to make over the neighborhood.
[16:59] <hatch> do they pay poor wages too? 
[16:59] <hatch> or wages that allow people to actually live off of one job
[17:00] <kadams54> $10-12 an hour
[17:01] <hatch> that must be really good for a poor neighbourhood no?
[17:01] <kadams54> So not great, but not the worst either.
[17:01] <teslanick> That usually depends on features independent of wages, like benefits, how work hours are distributed, etc.
[17:01] <kadams54> Yeah
[17:02] <kadams54> Probably more important than wages is getting enough hours to qualify for health insurance.
[17:02] <hatch> and I suppose without education about proper money management that money may just go to Apple/Nike :D
[17:02] <kadams54> Not something Canadians have to worry about
[17:02] <hatch> waitasecond - people hire more people and give them less hours so they don't have to pay for health care?
[17:02] <hatch> that's bloody low
[17:03] <kadams54> Yes
[17:03] <hatch> that's seriously low
[17:03] <kadams54> Oh it gets better
[17:03] <hatch> I'm guessing by better you mean worse :D
[17:04] <teslanick> Yes, we're operating in the bizarro world of negative american values.
[17:04] <teslanick> I have pretty good health insurance, but I've got my pitchfork out for VT to get single-payer.
[17:05] <hatch> funny how bad things have to be for people to want a monopoly :)
[17:05] <kadams54> Now that we have the American Care Act, employers have been looking at whether they can stop paying for health care insurance.
[17:05] <teslanick> hatch: when do I get the internet monopoly
[17:06] <kadams54> Sorry, Affordable Care Act
[17:06] <hatch> Obama care?
[17:06] <hatch> (we only get the Foxified version of anything up here) :)
[17:07] <kadams54> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/walmart-and-the-end-of-employer-based-health-care/381199/
[17:07] <kadams54> The ACA says you have to provide health insurance to any employee that works more than 30 hours.
[17:08] <kadams54> So retail employers in particular are intentionally short-staffing to avoid going over.
[17:08] <hatch> woah clicking that link kicked me out of ubuntu lol
[17:08] <hatch> it's a conspiracy!!!!
[17:09] <teslanick> Mark Shuttleworth gets a text anytime you hit a link inside Ubuntu. Today he's like, "EFF WALMART!"
[17:09] <hatch> lol damn yup I cannot open that link
[17:09] <kadams54> lol
[17:09] <kadams54> tl;dr: Walmart is dropping 30,000 part time employees from their insurance.
[17:10] <hatch> wow
[17:10] <kadams54> Home Depot: 20,000
[17:10] <kadams54> Trader Joes and Target as well
[17:10] <hatch> govt health care, public hospitals, increase income tax - problem solved (after about 30 years)
[17:11] <kadams54> It's not all bad - the employees may actually get better insurance through the mechanisms setup by ACA.
[17:11] <hatch> ohh well that's good
[17:11] <kadams54> But no one really knows because there's still so much shit that's completely unsettled.
[17:11] <kadams54> Including lawsuits
[17:11] <hatch> :/
[17:12] <kadams54> Money quote from the article: "Health-policy experts and wonks on both the right and left tend to look askance at the American system of employer-based insurance, which is essentially a historical accident."
[17:13] <hatch> lol
[17:15] <jrwren> kadams54: speaking of ACA... did your car insurance sky rocket this year?
[17:15] <kadams54> Not that I've seen?
[17:15] <teslanick> Why would my car insurance skyrocket from the ACA?
[17:15] <hatch> jrwren: you gota stop driving into things ;)
[17:15] <jrwren> teslanick: its a wicked MI v. MA thing.
[17:15] <jrwren> hatch: i haven't done that in 10yrs!
[17:16] <hatch> haha
[17:17] <jrwren> kadams54: I use BCBS MA, they are not a no-fault state. In the case of health care due to auto accident, in that state it all works, but we are in MI, a no fault auto state. 
[17:17] <jrwren> I'm basically buying health care from my auto insurance company :(
[17:17] <kadams54> Ugh.
[17:17] <teslanick> That's insane
[17:17] <jrwren> thanks obama.
[17:17] <kadams54> I'll ask my insurance agent
[17:17] <kadams54> I'm in the same position
[17:17] <kadams54> LOL
[17:17] <jrwren> kadams54: yeah, I thought you might be.
[17:17] <teslanick> Though I pay for injury or whatever, but it's like $5 a month
[17:17] <hatch> there is no fault auto insurance in the US? very cool
[17:18] <teslanick> (in both directions)
[17:18] <jrwren> thanks engler and granholm and whoever our governor is now.
[17:18] <hatch> we have that - I thought it was just a local thing
[17:18] <kadams54> Thanks George Washington.
[17:18] <kadams54> Thanks a lot.
[17:18] <jrwren> hatch: its TERRIBLE. it makes insurance here super expensive.
[17:18] <kadams54> Jerk shoulda just kept his mouth shut and let the Brits continue running things.
[17:18] <hatch> wait...how does not allowing people to sue eachother make it more expensive? lol
[17:18] <kadams54> Then we coulda been just like the Candians.
[17:18] <hatch> or does no fault mean something different?
[17:18] <teslanick> Washington, Washington. Six feet twenty, made of radiation.
[17:19] <jrwren> "Mr. Franklin what have your wrought?!"
[17:20] <jrwren> hatch: it means my insurance has to pay, no matter what, even if it isn't my fault.
[17:20] <jrwren> hatch: ask an actuary. It must throw off risk assessment or something.
[17:20] <hatch> ok clearly there are some differences then :)
[17:20] <hatch> jrwren: what's it cost to plate/insure a vehicle?
[17:20] <hatch> it's about $1500/yr here
[17:21] <hatch> 1M liability plus repairs on the car if it gets into an accident 
[17:21] <hatch> and our insurance company is hugely profitable 
[17:21] <teslanick> kadams54: The last time someone badmouthed George - http://i.imgur.com/GWw9PaF.png
[17:21] <jrwren> hatch: used to be 1200 for my 2 cars.  Now its almost double that.
[17:21] <teslanick> (artist's rendition because, you know, no cameras back then)
[17:22] <hatch> jrwren: ohh ok so it was VERY cheap before lol
[17:22] <hatch> or maybe ours is expensive :D
[17:22] <jrwren> hatch: I have old crappy cars.
[17:22] <kadams54> teslanick: lol
[17:22] <kadams54> jrwren's cars are death traps on wheels
[17:22] <hatch> the vehicle doesn't REALLY effect it much (unless it's  a motorbike) it's almost all liability costs
[17:22] <hatch> here anyways
[17:23] <jrwren> hatch: yeah, same here, now that you mention it.
[17:24] <hatch> jrwren: so now with no fault all they need to do there is up your income tax so you can get global health care and you'll be just like here
[17:24] <hatch> haha
[17:26] <hatch> I joke but I'm actually curious if you took a state and increased peoples income tax proportionally for insurance if it would be cheaper for everyone (spreading out the cost)
[17:27] <jrwren> hatch: if it were single payer.
[17:27] <hatch> right
[17:27] <jrwren> hatch: what happened is, ACA provision for NOT covering injury in auto took effect.
[17:28] <jrwren> prior to ACA, health care plans may or may not have covered auto injury, varying by plan.
[17:28] <jrwren> now, none of them do, or so my auto insurance tells me.
[17:29] <hatch> interesting 
[17:29] <jrwren> what health insurers do, is something called "pay and pursue" which is, pay the healthcare cost, and then pursue (which means ultimately sue) the cost from the auto insurers.
[17:30] <jrwren> i suppose it is a good benefit for urban dwellers with no car :)
[17:31] <hatch> I am curious if the private health model vs the global health model (my names, not sure what they actually call them) is better for anyone besides the business
[17:53] <hatch> uiteam looks like basic ci runs are back up but merging is still down just fyi
[17:53] <hatch> rick_h_:  Makyo any news on the qa of my `null` branch?
[17:53] <hatch> sorry the qa sucks :)
[17:54] <Makyo> Got distracted, doing it now
[17:54] <hatch> :) np 
[17:54] <hatch> can't merge anyways lol
[17:54] <hatch> Just want to know if there are bugs which I need to get on fixing heh
[18:16] <hatch> quantum mechanics blows my mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbzblfdgwXY
[18:22]  * hatch lunching
[19:27] <hatch> it's pouring here
[19:28] <hatch> and supposed to get to -10 tonight
[19:28]  * hatch is staying way off the roads
[19:28] <teslanick> It's the season where the environment does its level-best to kill us.
[19:28] <teslanick> That's the price of living in a place without poisonous animals.
[19:28] <hatch> hahaha
[19:28] <hatch> no but our animals are big
[19:29] <hatch> and pack hunt :)
[19:29] <hatch> awww puppy! http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/268/4/3/angry_wolf_153_by_azurehowlshilach-d48jb8g.jpg
[19:29] <hatch> lol
[19:42] <kadams54> Meanwhile, in Alaska… http://www.glaven.org/roadkill.jpg
[19:45] <hatch> someone has supper for a while
[19:46] <hatch> heh I'm not sure if that was road killed
[19:48] <teslanick> I see a moose and I it doesn't register as "food" to me.
[19:52] <hatch> haha no?
[19:55] <hatch> teslanick: if there was a 2000lb piece of brocoli there would you then?
[19:55] <teslanick> If it looked like a moose? I probably wouldn't eat it, because moose don't look like food.
[19:55] <hatch> lol
[19:56] <teslanick> Also, a 2000lb pound of broccoli is just a tree, right?
[19:56] <hatch> when I see a moose I either see a huge wall (if I'm driving and it's close to the road) or meat 
[19:56] <hatch> bahahaha
[19:56] <teslanick> hashtag reducto-ad-absurdum
[19:56] <teslanick> hatch: you're so *canadian*
[19:56] <hatch> rofl ^ rick_h_
[19:57] <jrwren> when you see live cows do you see food?
[19:57] <jrwren> I saw the moose and now I'm hungry.
[19:57] <kadams54> I see target practice
[19:57] <hatch> lol
[19:57] <kadams54> OK, so, true story…
[19:57] <hatch> cow moo moose
[19:57] <hatch> see ^ food
[19:57] <teslanick> kadams54: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a33sr9UGvo
[19:57] <teslanick> not the livestock!
[19:58] <kadams54> I live by Michigan State University, which started as an agricultural school
[19:58] <kadams54> One of the places I drive by on a frequent basis is the "Beef Cow and Calf Research Facility"
[19:59] <kadams54> Every time I see that sign I think "Mmm… veal."
[19:59] <hatch> waitasecond
[19:59] <hatch> Beef Cow?
[19:59] <hatch> there is another kind of Beef / Cow?
[19:59] <kadams54> Sure
[19:59] <kadams54> Dairy
[19:59] <kadams54> And there's a Dairy Cow Research Facility on another section of campus.
[19:59] <jrwren> ha!
[20:00] <hatch> lol
[20:00] <jrwren> I went to teh MSU diary store once and got icecream. it was good.
[20:00] <kadams54> Hah, yeah
[20:00] <hatch> was it made from a beef cow?
[20:00] <kadams54> I was just going to mention that
[20:01] <kadams54> Nope.
[20:01] <kadams54> At the MSU football games you can get ice cream sandwiches that are made at the dairy store. Those are really good.
[20:02] <hatch> but they are $15 and the size of a thumb tack right?
[20:02] <kadams54> Consolation if you're watching MSU get crushed by Ohio State.
[20:02] <kadams54> Grr.
[20:02] <kadams54> Hells no
[20:02] <kadams54> They're the real deal
[20:03] <kadams54> Softball sized at least. Fresh-baked cookies and ice cream churned from fresh milk
[20:03] <hatch> haha - anything sold at a place where people congregate to watch some type of entertainment is obscenely expensive here 
[20:05] <kadams54> Yeah, they are about twice as expensive as I'd normally pay, but worth it.
[20:05] <kadams54> $4
[20:12] <jrwren> mmm... icecream.
[20:13] <hatch> yummm