[10:18] <ochosi> (late) morning everyone
[10:44] <sidi-valencia> morning
[11:01] <bluesabre> quick hello to everyone!
[11:02] <bluesabre> dkessel: is this a good direction for the naming conventions?  if yes, I'll do a release tonight with the fixes http://paste.ubuntu.com/9212668/
[11:02] <bluesabre> have a good day everyone!
[11:02] <knome> hello bluesabre 
[11:03] <knome> naming convention looks good to me
[11:08] <bluesabre> did you know there is actually a GtkSearchEntry widget? :O
[11:08] <bluesabre> https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkSearchEntry.html
[11:09] <bluesabre> who knew? :D
[11:09] <bluesabre> anyhoo, first day of new job! bbl
[11:12] <knome> heh, congrats
[11:13] <knome> learning a lot or just very lost? ;)
[11:15] <ochosi> bluesabre: nice, congrats and have fun!
[11:32] <dkessel> bluesabre: looks gold!
[13:24] <elfy> can't update the locate database with catfish in livesession anymore 
[13:24] <elfy> want's a password :)
[13:26] <elfy> mmm
[13:32] <elfy> bluesabre: awesome :D bug 1395720
[13:33] <ochosi> elfy: if you log out from the live-session or lock the session, can you login with any password too?
[13:33] <elfy> checking
[13:34] <elfy> ochosi: what's the username? thought it was Xubuntu
[13:34] <ochosi> not sure, maybe ubuntu
[13:35] <elfy> can't log back in 
[13:37] <elfy> nvm
[13:37] <elfy> xubuntu - no password
[13:38] <elfy> using a password fails 
[13:38] <elfy> pkexec thunar launches fine without password in live
[13:41] <elfy> there was a recentish update to catfish - I know that it worked last time I looked in a livesession
[13:47] <ochosi> hmm, i thought catfish was also using pkexec now
[13:47] <ochosi> anyway, bluesabre will know
[13:47] <elfy> yup
[13:48] <elfy> not sure we'd want people to run catfish as root personally 
[13:50] <elfy> there's not a catfish policy 
[13:50] <elfy> anyway - I'll read what bluesabre says tomorrow morning when piskie's been nosy overnight
[13:58] <ochosi> yup
[14:45] <sidi> ochosi, unsure how these thingies are coded. am busier than expected because i have a visitor this week but ill make screenshots soon for the apps I have here :-)
[14:45] <sidi> greybird themed ofc
[15:04] <ochosi> sidi: errm, you lost me there, which thingies and which screenshots?
[15:06] <sidi> oh sorry
[15:06] <sidi> long irc backlog
[15:06] <sidi> the doc website
[15:06] <sidi> how the templates are implemented
[15:06] <sidi> thingies, a very specific word indeed.
[15:07] <elfy> I use it often - also it's sister term - thingummy 
[15:07] <sidi> i like that
[15:07] <elfy> :)
[15:08] <elfy> sidi: and for people silly enough to ask me "What's that?" It's always a whimwham for grinding smoke
[15:15] <ochosi> :)
[15:16] <ochosi> sidi: well i can only tell you what i would expect...
[15:16] <ochosi> have a header part coded into every docs page by default with a fallback image
[15:16] <ochosi> and if there's an image with the name "header-image.jpg" or something in that namespace, it'll use that instead of the default
[15:17] <ochosi> so that it doesn't clutter the simple wiki style of the pages
[15:18] <ochosi> sidi: i guess knome knows best how these "thingies" work ;)
[15:18] <knome> whaz?
[15:20] <ochosi> knome: sidi wants a fancy header for the xfce online docs (dokuwiki)
[15:21] <knome> aha
[15:21] <ochosi> and now he's sneaking out of the work by saying he has visitory
[15:21] <ochosi> visitors
[15:21] <knome> it's time since i've poked dokuwiki, but... get me server access and i'll fix it :P
[15:21] <knome> hah, bad excuses
[15:21] <habhatti> hello 
[15:21] <knome> the excuse last night was "my gf is here"
[15:21] <knome> hello habhatti 
[15:21] <ochosi> knome: btw, i've to run off in 30mins and won't be back in time for the meeting – sorry :(
[15:22] <knome> huhu: P
[15:22] <sidi> knome, ochosi yeah my gf is here
[15:22] <sidi> i expected her to come later so no late night hacking this week :P
[15:22] <knome> guess it'll just be a quick meeting then
[15:22] <slickymasterWork> girlfriend situation is untouchable 
[15:22] <habhatti> By the way, have any of you encountered chromium giving constant errors on resuming 14.04?
[15:23] <ochosi> knome: if there's anything you want me to comment on beforehands, i can do that now
[15:23] <knome> not really i think
[15:23] <knome> but fwiw, i've been working on the responsive design for xubuntu.org today
[15:23] <knome> it's almost ready in terms of the "big lines"
[15:24] <sidi> knome, oh is the Xfce doc site fixed or responsive?
[15:24] <sidi> what should be the min-max ranges for the headers?
[15:25] <knome> i've no idea.
[15:25] <habhatti> responsive nice
[15:25] <ochosi> knome: cool!
[15:25] <habhatti> xubuntu.org's wordpress isn't it?
[15:25] <ochosi> yup
[15:26]  * habhatti nods.
[15:35] <slickymasterWork> elfy, step 12 of the last section of http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases/1557/results 
[15:35] <slickymasterWork> can you please confirm it since I'm not getting that
[15:35] <slickymasterWork> and before I raise a bug
[15:44] <slickymasterWork> damn thing
[15:44] <knome> hah
[15:44] <knome> now now
[15:45] <slickymasterWork> elfy, not sure if you saw my ping :P
[15:45] <slickymasterWork> once again I got TTL
[15:55] <elfy> slickymasterWork: save as?
[15:56] <slickymasterWork> yes, that step
[15:56] <elfy> yea it saves
[15:57] <slickymasterWork> I'm not getting it. Mousepad simply saves the file and closes
[15:57] <elfy> but I'm using staging mousepad
[15:58] <slickymasterWork> this is in a fully updated vivid image (2014-11-24)
[15:58] <elfy> I'll boot live and check there
[15:58] <elfy> slickymasterWork: yea mines updated - but I have staging ppa
[15:58] <slickymasterWork> just ti be sure and not raising a bug for closing afterwards 
[15:58] <slickymasterWork> s/ti/to
[15:58] <elfy> yep - understood 
[16:00]  * slickymasterWork will wait for elfy's move
[16:01] <elfy> slickymasterWork: works in livesession - local to you perhaps, remove the mousepad confs and try again maybe 
[16:16] <slickymasterWork> nopes elfy, it's not related to ~/.config/Mousepad
[16:17] <slickymasterWork> removed it, rebooted, and still not getting a 'Save as' dialog in step 12
[16:17] <elfy> *shrug* not reproducible here or in live session
[16:17] <slickymasterWork> mousepad simply does a  plain old save and closes
[16:17] <elfy> oic 
[16:18] <slickymasterWork> what do you think of raising the bug anyway and see if there's any feedback
[16:18] <elfy> not really taking a lot of notice - yea - saves
[16:18] <slickymasterWork> at least jjfrv8 will potentially see it ^^^ 
[16:18] <jjfrv8> I did :)
[16:19] <slickymasterWork> lol, hi jack
[16:19] <slickymasterWork> and double check it
[16:19] <slickymasterWork> are you getting the 'sava as' dialog jjfrv8?
[16:19] <slickymasterWork> sae also
[16:19]  * slickymasterWork sigh
[16:19] <jjfrv8> nope, I'm seeing what you're seeing... I think
[16:19] <slickymasterWork> s/save
[16:19] <elfy> testcase wording is wrong
[16:20] <elfy> it should save and close 
[16:20] <slickymasterWork> ok, I'll file the bug and do a MP for you elfy, tonight
[16:20] <elfy> shouldn't mention save as 
[16:20] <slickymasterWork> yeaps
[16:21] <slickymasterWork> agree QA lead? 
[16:21] <slickymasterWork> elfy ^
[16:21] <elfy> yep 
[16:22] <jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, did you happen to see the backlog from the weekend? ochosi asked about my working on the powerman docs.
[16:22] <jjfrv8> any objections?
[16:23] <slickymasterWork> of course not jjfrv8, you're more than welcome
[16:23] <slickymasterWork> I've been postponing those, because I've haven't manage to find the time to them
[16:24] <slickymasterWork> but we can split the load, like we did before
[16:24] <jjfrv8> ok, I thought I would rewrite the testcase (1582) first to familiarize myself with the new version, then look at the docs.
[16:24] <slickymasterWork> yes, that's a good idea
[16:25] <slickymasterWork> I've already done the Getting started section (http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfpm-docs:getting-started)
[16:25] <jjfrv8> :)
[16:30] <jjfrv8> bbl
[16:34] <slickymasterWork> ok elfy, bug 1395787. I'll have a MP for you after dinner
[16:34] <elfy> slickymasterWork: k - no rush :)
[16:35] <slickymasterWork> all righty boss
[16:35] <elfy> heh
[16:35] <knome> elfy, say that and he'll never file the MP ;)
[16:36] <sidi> knome, "dont rush to dinner, MP first"
[16:36] <knome> that's more liek it
[16:37] <slickymasterWork> bah you guys
[16:37] <slickymasterWork> you're nasty :P
[16:37] <knome> slickymasterWork, just kidding, now go eat your dinner :P
[16:37] <elfy> sounds a bit Afrikaans to me 
[16:37] <knome> elfy, sounds a lot like gobbledigook to me
[16:37] <elfy> :)
[16:38] <sidi> gobbledigook, that sounds nordic
[16:38] <sidi> are you nordic, knome?
[16:38]  * sidi talks nonsense, all is fine.
[16:38] <knome> sidi, yeah, finland is usually considered a nordic country :P
[17:01] <slickymasterWork> elfy, another one: bug 1395796
[17:07] <elfy> slickymasterWork: ok - do them in the same mp :)
[17:07] <elfy> or not 
[17:08] <knome> lol
[17:08] <slickymasterWork> I'll do it in the same, no need for a separated one for each 
[17:10] <pleia2> http://www.unixstickers.com/tshirts/linux-and-tux-t-shirts/the-ultimate-xubuntu-linux-tshirt
[17:10] <pleia2> preorder discount
[17:11] <knome> bah, expensive shipping
[17:11] <pleia2> oof, shipping is... yeah
[17:12] <slickymasterWork> yeah :(
[17:12] <knome> would be 21 euros to finland with shipping
[17:12] <knome> meh
[17:13] <knome> that's more than three times what the t-shirt i'mm wearing now was :P
[17:13] <knome> i guess i don't really want a t-shirt!
[17:13] <pleia2> well, most of my t-shirts are free ;) Ubuntu ones from Canonical aren't cheaper either
[17:13] <knome> heh
[17:13] <pleia2> and custom ones from zazzle aren't cheap
[17:13] <knome> well, i don't usually use t-shirt with prints
[17:14] <knome> blank, one-color t-shirts FTW
[17:14] <pleia2> this place has nice t-shirts and ship internationally, cost is high :\
[17:14] <habhatti> heh, shipping would be insane to Pakistan. :)
[17:14] <knome> not sure what can be done about that if the italian post office asks for silly prices
[17:14] <pleia2> habhatti: how much?
[17:15] <pleia2> $12 to the US
[17:15] <knome> 8/12 to finland
[17:15] <pleia2> I think I'll order some random stickers along with this
[17:15] <habhatti> pleia2: it's normally 60 from usa to here, courier
[17:16] <knome> 14/17 to australia
[17:16] <pleia2> habhatti: this is shipping from italy, I'm curious now :)
[17:16] <knome> 12/17 to pakistan
[17:16] <habhatti> that's not too bad
[17:17] <habhatti> there's a university here I'm trying to switch to xubuntu - hmm, our students will like those
[17:17] <pleia2> habhatti: we're kicking off an initiative this cycle to reward some Xubuntu testers with stickers :D
[17:18] <elfy> or trying to 
[17:18] <knome> well i could do with some stickers :P
[17:18] <knome> so maybe i should make the incentive program happen, then test every day
[17:18] <pleia2> how many did we want total?
[17:18] <knome> D:
[17:18] <pleia2> 20 sets of stickers?
[17:18] <habhatti> pleia2: That sounds nice.
[17:19] <elfy> pleia2: max 2 sets per month/ and we're done with month 1 of the cycle already
[17:19] <knome> 12 per cycle
[17:19] <elfy> so 10 at most for vv, 12 per cycle 
[17:20] <knome> 20 would do for two cycles
[17:20] <pleia2> well, I need to send some to team members too
[17:20] <pleia2> like knome and elfy 
[17:20]  * knome bows
[17:20] <pleia2> so 20 will do, requested
[17:20] <pleia2> and now, work!
[17:21] <knome> hf!
[17:21] <knome> (meeting in 40 mins!)
[17:21] <pleia2> k
[17:21] <knome> looks like a short one
[17:22] <pleia2> I have some things to talk about
[17:22] <habhatti> thank you so much for your hard work, you're putting a lot of life into old machines here
[17:23] <pleia2> habhatti: that's always wonderful to hear!
[17:26] <knome> pleia2, uh oh ;)
[17:59] <knome> !team | Meeting time!
[17:59] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[17:59] <pleia2> o/
[17:59] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 24 17:59:56 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:59] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:59] <knome> #chair pleia2 
[17:59] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome pleia2
[17:59] <knome> i'll get a mouse and then we can start
[18:00] <skellat> o/
[18:00] <elfy> hi
[18:00] <pleia2> mice are important for Xubuntu meetings
[18:00] <skellat> Indeed
[18:00]  * pleia2 has a vervet
[18:00] <knome> #topic Open action items
[18:01] <knome> bluesabre did improbe widget naming
[18:01] <knome> knome has completed the QA processes change but needs to send it out to the list
[18:01] <knome> #action knome to send a proposal for the QA process to the -devel ML
[18:01] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to send a proposal for the QA process to the -devel ML
[18:01] <knome> exploratory testing mail is sent
[18:01] <elfy> did I see the last draft?
[18:01] <knome> and i've scheduled this meeting
[18:02] <knome> elfy, yes, you've seen the one that's last
[18:02] <elfy> k - thanks :)
[18:02] <knome> i haven't integrated the last bit yet, but i got an ACK from ochosi so it's merely a small merge
[18:02] <knome> so that's it for the action items
[18:02] <knome> #topic Team updates
[18:03] <knome> #info knome worked on responsive design for the website
[18:03] <pleia2> #info pleia2 has been in contact with Unixstickers, they have a Xubuntu t-shirt now! http://www.unixstickers.com/tshirts/linux-and-tux-t-shirts/the-ultimate-xubuntu-linux-tshirt
[18:03]  * skellat just had the electricity go out & is on emergency power for broadband uplink
[18:03]  * skellat departs to start recovery
[18:03] <knome> pleia2, if you are ordering one, let's see how it feels like and if it's ok, then add that to the website
[18:04] <pleia2> #info Marketing blueprint for Vivid is finally filled out, discussion later this meeting https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-marketing
[18:04] <knome> #action knome and pleia2 to update to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
[18:04] <meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to update to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
[18:04] <knome> to update to update?
[18:04] <knome> #undo
[18:04] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
[18:04] <pleia2> knome: will do, trying to get them to toss one in with the QA sticker order (I'll pay for it if needed, but same shipment would be good)
[18:04] <knome> #action knome and pleia2 to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
[18:04] <meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to update the website once the t-shirt quality is checked
[18:05] <knome> pleia2, sure. i think it would be fair to use the community funds to cover that
[18:05] <knome> (the shipping, that is)
[18:05] <knome> let's see how it goes and if you need to pay something, run it through ochosi/team
[18:05] <knome> any other team updates?
[18:05] <elfy> #info QA checking and updating tests as they come up
[18:06] <elfy> #info QA not much commenting done on the exploratory testing idea - will mail -dev list with more details
[18:07] <knome> elfy, did we set up a testcase for those reports yet?
[18:07] <elfy> a seperate one? 
[18:07] <knome> yes, since exploratory testing doesn't really fit in the "do X, Y, Z" mindset
[18:07] <elfy> (s)
[18:07] <knome> or did we decide not to file one
[18:07] <knome> err, to set up one :P
[18:07] <elfy> I don't see much point tbh 
[18:07] <knome> ack
[18:07] <knome> i'm fine with that
[18:08] <elfy> there ARE places for people to report 
[18:08] <knome> yep
[18:08] <knome> any other updates or shall we move on?
[18:08] <elfy> I'm done
[18:08] <knome> let's move on then
[18:08] <knome> #topic Announcements
[18:09] <knome> not really an announcement, but similar in nature... there has been some activity going on to awake the xfce team
[18:09] <knome> if you are willing to help there (as well), see https://wiki.xfce.org/people
[18:09] <pleia2> oh yes, I should social media their links now that it's a weekday
[18:09] <pleia2> re: surveys
[18:10] <knome> basically, we've signed up the xubuntu team in QA; not meaning we'll do all xfce QA
[18:10] <elfy> nice to be consulted
[18:10] <knome> but to tell the team that we are available if they need help
[18:10] <knome> since we have a pretty large userbase
[18:11] <pleia2> cool
[18:11] <knome> so, until they ask for anything, we don't need to do anything :)
[18:11] <knome> (unless we want to)
[18:11] <knome> elfy, and of course that'll go through the xubuntu procedure, and we'll only do testing when it makes any sense to us
[18:11] <knome> so no worries! :)
[18:12] <elfy> well given that - I've got something to say I think
[18:12] <knome> sure, go ahead
[18:12] <elfy> I'm done, I'm losing interest rapidly
[18:12] <pleia2> :(
[18:12] <elfy> I'll carry on for this cycle - but I'll not be doing it again
[18:13] <pleia2> is it just lack of testers?
[18:13] <elfy> when it comes to milestones I'll not be spending hours of my time to make sure everything gets tested
[18:13] <knome> elfy, sad to hear that - and if there is anything we can do to help you get motivated, let us know
[18:13] <elfy> so if there's not enough done I will say that we need to not release said milestones
[18:13] <habhatti> hmm
[18:14] <knome> to me, that sounds fair, and maybe we should have done that already when any single person did most of the tests
[18:14] <elfy> well - announcing in here that *we're* going to be helping xfce with testing without bothering to mention it to me just brought my thinking further forward than it was 
[18:14] <elfy> hardly a motivating thing to hear
[18:15] <pleia2> :\
[18:15]  * knome shrugs
[18:15] <knome> as i mentioned, it's just to let them know that we're available if they need, and we can cooperate with them at that point
[18:15] <elfy> even so
[18:15] <elfy> anyway - I said what I needed to - so we can move on
[18:16] <knome> ok
[18:16] <knome> any other announcements?
[18:17] <sidi> can i have a word as a xfce person?
[18:17] <pleia2> sidi: please
[18:17] <sidi> for me the goal of this move is not to even ask the distros to do free QA
[18:17] <sidi> but you guys especially at Xubuntu, already do testing
[18:17] <sidi> and i think its clear that @xfce there is no longer any CI or testing running
[18:18] <sidi> yet, we have many downstreams and cant keep up with you guys' own progress
[18:18] <sidi> xub is one of the main
[18:18] <sidi> along with debian and arch, which afaik do no testing
[18:18] <sidi> so when you guys successfully tested some software, it's good to let us know
[18:18] <sidi> when you didnt, we already believe you will file reports
[18:18] <sidi> but its useful for us to know when the software was last tested
[18:19] <sidi> and what is never tested, especially
[18:19] <knome> as i see it, it's like a part of our regular testing routine
[18:20] <knome> we use some 4.11 components already, so that's the organic testing we are running for xfce
[18:21] <sidi> the only question that is really useful to the xfce devs, and especially to people like me who commit to triage some reports, is "when was this feature last working?"
[18:21] <sidi> right now i need to test every bug report myself but i sometimes dont have the right setup
[18:22] <sidi> if you guys for instance know that libxfce4ui features worked as expected in 10.foo.bar, and then i realise on my git arch that they dont, i can more easily trace the regression
[18:22] <sidi> so there ought to be a xfce.org place where downstreams can tell us what last worked.
[18:22] <sidi> it's up to you whether it's achievable or not given your workload, no pressure of course
[18:22] <sidi> just wanting to avoid duplication
[18:23] <knome> i totally agree with that
[18:23]  * pleia2 nods
[18:23] <elfy> it's certainly a laudable aim
[18:23] <habhatti> makes sense
[18:23] <pleia2> sidi: I think having you here will help a lot, can be easy for communication to break down as we're doing tests on our end and forget to tell Xfce
[18:23] <knome> and since we file bug reports and link them to upstream too, it isn't really far off from this point
[18:24] <knome> well, so far, telling xfce has been kind of hard, because people working on it have been scarce
[18:24] <pleia2> yep
[18:24] <knome> maybe this new project to get things going on will help with that
[18:24] <sidi> pleia2, it really needs to flow down to up rather than the other way around. i'm a former xub so i know where to find you lot, but it's hard for me to keep up with all the downstreams, there even are some that i'm not aware off. you guys and girls are doing an amazing work keeping up with bug reporting and pre-triaging your users' bugs
[18:25] <sidi> it'd be good to also share testing outcomes, and if you feel we cant deal with your info properly then you can suggest better ways
[18:25] <sidi> Sharing test results might require that we adopt your testing framework
[18:26] <sidi> to me it makes sense distros test different features/user tasks
[18:26] <knome> i think the biggest thing that we need from xfce is that bug reports are actually processed, eg. fixed ;)
[18:26] <sidi> i believe xfce should host a web UI for testers to report trivially
[18:26] <elfy> mmm
[18:26] <sidi> elfy, how do you keep track of testing results at the moment?
[18:26] <elfy> frankly it's hard enough to get people to report what they do
[18:27] <elfy> ~10 users last cycle reported test results
[18:27] <knome> sidi, iso.qa.ubuntu.com and packages.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:27] <elfy> sidi: currently http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases
[18:27] <sidi> testing is a PITA indeed.
[18:27] <knome> we've even been improving the testing trackers so that the information is more easy to get out
[18:28] <sidi> thats cool
[18:28] <sidi> do you know if there is a public web API that would allow us to pull this?
[18:28] <sidi> so its all the same to you but we can unify this with other downstreams who start testing?
[18:28] <knome> sidi, there is some API, you should talk about that in #ubuntu-quality 
[18:28] <habhatti> i signed up as a tester yesterday, the docs are very good
[18:28] <sidi> knome, noted
[18:29] <elfy> habhatti: I know you did \o/
[18:29]  * sidi will let people continue their meetings
[18:29] <sidi> thanks for the info
[18:29] <knome> so anyting else under announcements?
[18:29] <elfy> sidi: it's a community meeting :)
[18:30] <pleia2> thanks sidi 
[18:31] <knome> ok, let's move on
[18:31] <knome> #topic Discussion
[18:31] <pleia2> so I have a few marketing things
[18:31] <knome> no items on the agenda, so anybody want to bring up something
[18:31] <knome> there you go, just #subtopic it
[18:31] <pleia2> #subtopic Vivid Marketing
[18:31] <pleia2> I saw a talk at a conference recently about marketing open source projects, woo
[18:31] <pleia2> a few things I learned:
[18:32] <pleia2> 1. We need a press contact address on our website, all we have are dev and user list addresses
[18:32] <pleia2> I added this to the blueprint as something to work with knome on
[18:32] <knome> could that be another mailing list?
[18:32] <pleia2> I dunno
[18:32] <knome> for general contacts
[18:33] <pleia2> I fear it would end up dead and people wouldn't post to it
[18:33] <knome> directing that at anybody alone sounds bad
[18:33] <pleia2> "no one uses this, must be a bad address"
[18:33] <pleia2> well, I am the marketing lead
[18:33] <pleia2> so I could take requests and share/respond as appropriate
[18:33] <knome> if it doesn't sound like too much work for you, then ok
[18:33] <elfy> pleia2: but who'd know it was *dead* ? 
[18:33] <pleia2> shouldn't be
[18:33] <pleia2> elfy: list archives
[18:33] <knome> i guess one more idea
[18:34] <elfy> surely if foo is mailing us at it - then it would be active when it needs to be?
[18:34] <knome> we really should set up @xubuntu.org emails, even just aliases
[18:34] <pleia2> elfy: I doubt we'll have many folks contacting us
[18:34] <knome> now feel free to continue :)
[18:34] <knome> make list archive private?
[18:34] <knome> :P
[18:34] <pleia2> but right now they don't have a great way to contact us at all
[18:34] <pleia2> knome: list members only perhaps
[18:34] <pleia2> aside from tweeting at us or something, which is very meh
[18:35] <knome> pleia2, something like that.
[18:35] <pleia2> knome: that could work
[18:35] <knome> pleia2, that would work even if you are on holiday or so
[18:35] <pleia2> yeah
[18:35] <knome> and it would be easy enough to pass on
[18:35] <pleia2> xubuntu-contact @ lists.ubuntu.com maybe?
[18:35] <knome> and discussion related to the requests could be done on the list
[18:36] <knome> or contacts
[18:36] <pleia2> sure
[18:36] <knome> and i can be a list admin too
[18:36] <pleia2> ok, I can submit the request to Canonical IS to set it up
[18:36] <knome> please add me as a requestor
[18:36] <pleia2> will do
[18:37] <knome> ta
[18:37] <pleia2> alright, next thing I learned
[18:37] <pleia2> 2. We should have a better idea who our users are
[18:38] <pleia2> in my head, I think these are just random people who install Xubuntu on their personal machines, but I routinely bump into all kinds of developers and interesting people using Xubuntu for work at conferences
[18:38] <habhatti> web dev here, switched because of unity
[18:38] <pleia2> so it might be nice to come up with some Personas for various users (developers, classrooms, etc) to make sure our Strat Doc meets their needs
[18:39] <pleia2> my first inclination is to create a short user survey which pretty much just asks users how they'd classify themselves user-wise
[18:39] <pleia2> like, one question
[18:39] <pleia2> Developer, User, Educator, Student, <write in>
[18:39] <knome> if we set up some user surveys, maybe we could ask the participants if they would be ok to be mentioned on the website
[18:40] <knome> to create a parallel series to "Xubuntu at..."
[18:40] <knome> could be 2-3 people per article
[18:40] <pleia2> ooh, yeah, maybe "if you wish to be contacted about your usage for a possible blog post, put your name and address here"
[18:40] <habhatti> that'd be nice
[18:40] <knome> yep.
[18:40] <ali1234> one question isn't enough, i think. unless the question is "please write 500 words describing yourself"
[18:40] <knome> ali1234, it's a start.
[18:40] <pleia2> ali1234: I want to keep this simple, otherwise people won't do it
[18:41] <pleia2> we need to start somewhere :)
[18:41] <ali1234> well i won't answer a one word survey which is so open-ended
[18:41] <knome> as i told sidi... we really want to avoid open-ended questions unless we really need a lot of open-ended data
[18:41] <ali1234> takes too long to write something. i can blast through multiple choice questions in no time
[18:41] <pleia2> ali1234: based on surveys I've conducted in the past, I think you're in the minority
[18:41] <knome> ali1234, you won't answer a survey with one question and a dropdown box?
[18:42] <ali1234> sure, but unless there's like 100 items in the drop down that won't tell you anything useful
[18:42] <pleia2> my short surveys always do considerably better than long ones (like, 10x as well)
[18:43] <pleia2> anyway, this is just a baseline, currently we know pretty much nothing about our users :\
[18:43] <knome> i would go with 5-10 different groups.
[18:43] <pleia2> yeah, I'll draft up an etherpad we can collaborate on with options
[18:43] <knome> great
[18:43] <pleia2> #action pleia2 to contact Canonical IS to set up xubuntu-contacts mailing list
[18:43] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to contact Canonical IS to set up xubuntu-contacts mailing list
[18:44] <pleia2> #action pleia2 to draft etherpad for user self-classification survey
[18:44] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to draft etherpad for user self-classification survey
[18:44] <pleia2> ok, so that brings me to my last item
[18:44] <knome> :)
[18:44] <pleia2> 3. We should figure out if we're truly meeting the needs of our users
[18:45] <pleia2> right now we tell them to help us in the dev process early on in the cycle to talk about default options, etc
[18:45] <pleia2> but no one does this
[18:45] <pleia2> even if they make it to the table, they often don't have the expertise to review our strategy document and help us effectively
[18:45] <knome> so i guess the question is: how do we make participation easier but at the same time, useful for the team
[18:45] <pleia2> yep
[18:45] <pleia2> I'm thinking another survey around March or so
[18:45] <knome> and the other question is
[18:46] <pleia2> asking things like "what do you install after installing xubuntu"
[18:46] <ali1234> yes, a basic survey now would inform later ones
[18:46] <knome> how should we process the data from our users, eg. if 15 people say they want libreoffice installed, should we just do that?
[18:46] <elfy> what do we supply that you remove/don't use
[18:46] <pleia2> if we really do have an avalanche of libreoffice, that tells us something important
[18:46] <elfy> yep
[18:46] <pleia2> knome: no, it's a data point
[18:46] <pleia2> we don't have to
[18:46] <ali1234> there was a survey on reddit the other day, it had an avalanche of libreoffice
[18:46] <knome> how do we make sure it's not only the vocal minority?
[18:47] <elfy> knome: well at the moment the vocal minority do make their choices :)
[18:47] <knome> i guess it ultimately boils down to: how do we stick to what we think is "xubuntu" and at the same time, listen to our users
[18:47] <ali1234> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cHinunM_sGz9CUABKVSxWy5dLJAuGYcNRVc9GJ976r4/viewanalytics
[18:47] <knome> if we do whatever the users say, xubuntu will soon have this, that and the other software and won't fit on a 1GB USB
[18:48] <pleia2> knome: well, right now we have no idea except from people who yell at us :)
[18:48] <habhatti> i think if you find out more about your users, you'll probably end up with requests for things that are sensibly minimal 
[18:48] <pleia2> habhatti: agreed
[18:49] <elfy> surely it's better to have some data than just team hoping we're making sensible choices
[18:49] <habhatti> correct
[18:49] <pleia2> elfy: that's what I'm thinking
[18:49] <knome> i don't disagree with that
[18:49] <pleia2> we don't have to be influenced by the outcome, but it's a start
[18:49] <elfy> yea
[18:49] <knome> i'm just wondering that how will we know at the end of the day if libreoffice should be installed or not
[18:50] <pleia2> maybe, maybe not
[18:50] <pleia2> I think we won't know until we give it a try
[18:50] <knome> and if we just stick to what we have decided so far, how does it help to even ask users? :)
[18:50] <knome> sure, i'm just bringing out some food for thought
[18:50] <ali1234> we won't know that unless we ask
[18:50] <habhatti> it's always positive to solicit feedback
[18:50] <pleia2> giving users a voice is important, even if it's only one piece of many in our decision
[18:50] <habhatti> builds a sense of community
[18:50] <elfy> knome: because it's not a dozen people's voices hopefully :)
[18:51] <ali1234> how many replies did sidi get?
[18:51] <knome> the other question related to preference on software is that how much has xubuntu-core helped people
[18:51] <pleia2> we can make that clear in the survey too, "many considerations impact our decisions in direction, this survey seeks to bring in the direct user feedback piece" or somesuch
[18:51] <habhatti> ^
[18:52] <pleia2> knome: yeah, maybe break out the default apps into a checkbox question?
[18:52] <knome> and how many would consider that a fair option for getting the system they want, instead of having libreoffice installed by default for example
[18:52] <pleia2> "select tools you use"
[18:52] <knome> maybe
[18:52] <pleia2> anyway, I want to do this in March, so I figure we can start this work in Feburary after we have results from the first survey
[18:52] <knome> yep, agree with pointing out that it isn't a shouting competition and the group who shouts the loudest, wins..
[18:52] <pleia2> can etherpad up and discuss it more then
[18:53] <pleia2> knome: yeah
[18:53] <knome> please do so
[18:53] <pleia2> that's all from me :)
[18:53] <knome> any other discussions?
[18:53] <elfy> not from me 
[18:53] <pleia2> and thanks to everyone for being so engaged \o/
[18:54] <knome> :)
[18:54] <knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
[18:54] <pleia2> ali1234: this is an interesting survey, would be nice to see coorelation with default apps on their respective system (are they just using what's installed, or?)
[18:54] <knome> ochosi is up next for XPL
[18:54] <knome> #nick ochosi
[18:55] <knome> #action ochosi (for XPL) to schedule next meeting
[18:55] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi (for XPL) to schedule next meeting
[18:55] <knome> #endmeeting
[18:55] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 24 18:55:20 2014 UTC.  
[18:55] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-11-24-17.59.moin.txt
[18:55] <knome> thanks!
[18:55] <pleia2> thanks knome 
[18:55]  * pleia2 back2work
[18:55] <elfy> just a point on this shuffling meeting times 
[18:55] <ali1234> pleia2: it's a google survey, the questions and answers are as you see them, people just tick whatever box
[18:55] <knome> i'll put up the minutes in a minute
[18:55] <knome> elfy, yep?
[18:55] <ali1234> (single choice)
[18:55] <pleia2> ali1234: yeah, just musing :)
[18:55] <elfy> I wonder if someone is mentioned more than once whether they should just chair once
[18:56] <ali1234> seeing correlations would be good, but i don't that's possible unless you are survey owner
[18:56] <knome> elfy, maybe
[18:56] <elfy> knome: moves chair AND likely meeting times around more 
[18:56] <elfy> eg ochosi is 3 times and likely to pick 11am 3 times :)
[18:56] <elfy> just a thought
[18:57] <knome> correct
[18:57] <knome> i generally prefer the changing chair
[18:57] <knome> even if it means that the meeting time changes and it's harder to make/remember it
[18:58] <elfy> yes
[18:58] <knome> minutes are up
[18:58] <elfy> I agree, changing chair is a good thing :)
[18:59] <knome> and nicely splits the burden
[18:59] <elfy> all I'm saying is that 3 out of 9 are 1 person and so of that person always picks the same time 
[18:59] <knome> heh, yeah
[19:00] <elfy> which is not good for others - that means that 33% of meetings are going to be missed 
[19:00] <elfy> instead of 15% 
[19:00] <knome> i guess we could/should at least skip over a chair if a person has two or more consecutive chairs
[19:00] <elfy> just a thought :)
[19:01] <knome> ochosi, ping ^
[20:37] <habhatti> Hmm, are there any specific testcases for applications?
[20:38] <elfy> habhatti: yep - they are all on the package tracker 
[20:38] <elfy> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases
[20:40] <elfy> habhatti: there are 2 trackers - one is for images, the other for packages 
[20:40] <elfy> that link is our tests - there are other sets of tests available in addition 
[21:08] <elfy> habhatti: did you catch the testcase chat before you pinged out?
[21:10] <habhatti> elfy: yes, although I missed the answer about how to look at the changes in the daily builds
[21:10] <elfy> you only thought you said that :)
[21:11] <elfy> all we have in channel is Hmm, are there any specific testcases for applications? then you pinging out 
[21:11] <habhatti> oh, here: and is there any to see what has changed in the daily build?
[21:16] <elfy> not actually sure - I tend to run a the dev version so I see what's updated by updating - everything has a changelog unless it's from a ppa
[21:17] <elfy> I've never really needed to know *what* has changed daily
[21:19] <habhatti> ok
[21:20] <elfy> any reason that you're thinking of for knowing?
[21:20] <habhatti> oh knowing what has changed helps to focus on those packages more
[21:28] <elfy> habhatti: well if you're testing - you don't really need to know if a package has changed unless you find a bug
[21:29] <habhatti> true
[21:30] <ali1234> there isnt really a good way to do that
[21:31] <habhatti> ah well, time to install this on a real machine :)
[21:31]  * dkessel finished reading backlog
[21:31] <elfy> habhatti: do you have a spare machine?
[21:31] <dkessel> woooot xubuntu t-shirts
[21:32] <dkessel> and only 3 left...
[21:32] <habhatti> elfy: I was thinking of triple-booting on this laptop
[21:32] <elfy> though - mine isn't so much as a spare machine as a handful of partitions 
[21:32] <elfy> yea :)
[21:32] <habhatti> easier to get these tests done since I always lug this around
[21:32] <elfy> habhatti: when you install it - just install grub to that partition - then update whatever your main bootloader is to find it 
[21:33] <habhatti> elfy: hmm, yeah. I have Win7/Xubuntu 14.04 with an encrypted home atm
[21:34] <ali1234> if you look at the ppa on launchpad you can see when packages last changed: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xubuntu-staging
[21:34] <ali1234> +git means it's not an official release but a git snapshot
[21:35] <elfy> I'd not let it do it automatically - I'd create the partition, then manually set partitions - then you can tell it where to install grub
[21:35] <elfy> ali1234: yea
[21:35] <habhatti> ali1234: that works, thanks 
[21:35] <ali1234> for the detailed changelogs you can go to http://git.xfce.org
[21:35] <elfy> that's just the few ppa packages though 
[21:36] <ali1234> click the package, then "log"
[21:36] <ali1234> it's kind of tricky to filter out all the translation commits though
[21:36] <ali1234> and you have to figure out which git revision the ppa corresponds to manually
[21:36] <ali1234> some programs put the git revision in help->about
[21:37] <habhatti> thank you
[21:37] <ali1234> although only if it was built from the repo, which ppas usually aren't
[21:41] <elfy> night all 
[21:45] <knome> dkessel, i'm sure that's just the first batch