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UbUntUToUchLover test03:41
brijithmachow secure is ububtu touch!?05:34
lotuspsychjemore secure then android05:34
brijithmaci am planning to install it in my nexus 7 tablet05:34
lotuspsychjeits highly recomended to install :p05:35
nhaineslotuspsychje: Ubuntu has no encryption or data security.05:35
brijithmac:) ok05:35
brijithmacwhat about the stability?05:36
nhainesbrijithmac: applications are heavily sandboxed, so apps are pretty secure.  But there's no encryption available so a stolen device means free data for the thief.05:36
nhainesDo you have the 2012 or 2013 Nexus 7?05:36
nhainesbrijithmac: then Ubuntu is not available for that device, unfortunately.05:36
lotuspsychjebrijithmac: i buyed the 2013 wifi n7 just for ubuntu touch, and works nicely05:38
brijithmacwow great! but mine is 2012..05:39
nhainesI wouldn't buy a tablet for Ubuntu before there is being sold preinstalled.05:39
brijithmacyeah.. good. I am curious about it. so thought of installing it.. :(05:43
lotuspsychjebrijithmac: maybe check the XDA forums and see if any project got it working anyway maybe05:43
nhainesYes, unfortunately it is a lot of work to support specific hardware, so very few models are supported.05:44
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UbUntUToUchLoverAny news on the ovation image? I have a B&N Nook HD+, and the Ubuntu Touch image on the Ubuntu Touch Devices page has not been updated since May. I am currently running Cyanogenmod.06:44
UbUntUToUchLoverAlso, who is Wesnoth? Is this person the same one who develops the Battle for Wesnoth game? If so, he doesn't mention it on his website.06:47
UbUntUToUchLoverIf he does mention it, I haven't found it, yet.06:49
UbUntUToUchLoverSorry if somebody responded. I was accidentally kicked off.06:51
UbUntUToUchLoverIs there anybody who can help me with my problem?06:53
UbUntUToUchLoverAny news on the ovation image? I have a B&N Nook HD+, and the Ubuntu Touch image on the Ubuntu Touch Devices page has not been updated since May. For now, I am currently running Cyanogenmod, and although I like the user interface and the billions of Google apps, I am not fond of Android, and would rather have something close to one of my favorite Linux operating systems.06:58
UbUntUToUchLoverI would also like to know a little more about the person who refers to him/her self as simply "wesnoth", and if it is the same developer of Battle for Wesnoth.07:00
UbUntUToUchLover Is there anyone who can help me?07:02
nhainesUbUntUToUchLover: you'll need to use the contact information on the Ubuntu Touch Devices page to get more information.  We don't have anything other than what porters report there.07:03
UbUntUToUchLoverHmmm... Well, thanks, anyway. I was just hoping for some answers. After all, I saw how you were talking to someone else about their tablet problems, and thought I might offer mine. Sorry for any problems I might have caused!07:05
UbUntUToUchLoverI'll keep checking the website. Also, is it possible that I might get some answers from "wesnoth" via IRC?07:07
mvobzoltan: this is something you will like: https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/click/chroot-15.04-multiarch/+merge/243493  - it should unblock you07:18
nhainesUbUntUToUchLover: no problems at all!  Unfortunately, the other person was also using an unsupported tablet.  :)07:22
nhainesUbUntUToUchLover: I have no idea who wesnoth is--maybe just a fan of the game?--so I don't have any useful advice other than to check the wiki and any links from there.07:22
nhainesAnd sorry I didn't respond faster.  I'm busy writing a book and every so often I stop being responsible and peek in here.  ;)07:23
UbUntUToUchLoverNo problem. Anyway, I figured as much, but isn't there also talk about an Ubuntu Touch image that is universal to various devices, even those not officially supported, or am I reading the news wrong?07:24
UbUntUToUchLoverI think there should be one. I like Ubuntu that much. :-)07:26
nhainesThe main filesystem is basically universal, but there needs to be hardware integration work for each and every single mobile platform before it can function on a platform.  That's because unlike IBM PC-based hardware, every ARM platform boots differently, has different graphics and sound and hardware, and so on.07:27
nhainesSo for now a truly universal image is unfortunately unpossible.07:28
UbUntUToUchLoverHrm. I was afraid you'd tell me that.07:29
UbUntUToUchLoverIf you do enough web searching, you'll eventually find pictures of someone trying it out. I have tried it myself, but it was so buggy, I had to flash Cyanogenmod as quickly as possible!07:31
nhainesYeah, even as much as everyone seems to love the Nexus 5, it's only working because the Nexus 7 2013 model had almost the exact same chipset.07:32
nhainesSo after a year, it really hasn't gotten any better.  It mostly all works, but no Bluetooth support, which kind of makes it useless for a phone.07:33
UbUntUToUchLoverWell, some of the problems I've found for this image are differently-sized apps. Some fill the screen and some take up only a third of the screen, as if some of them were made for a phablet instead of a tablet.07:34
UbUntUToUchLoverThe on-screen keyboard was the worst problem. Not only was it off to the side most of the time, my touches would sometimes activate what was BEHIND the keyboard, as if it had virtual holes!07:36
UbUntUToUchLoverAs for what you said about bluetooth, it works for Ubuntu on my Nook, although I haven't officially tested it.07:37
UbUntUToUchLoverI've done research about this problem, but I'm at my wit's end. That's why when I saw the link to the IRC chat, I logged on as soon as possible. I've been following it ever since.07:40
UbUntUToUchLoverAnyone else know about the ovation image? I've been discussing it with nhaines, but he's a little busy, right now.07:42
UbUntUToUchLoverI'll check back later.07:45
UbUntUToUchLoverSorry, my IRC client crashed. I've been talking to people on #wesnoth (which is also a freenode channel), but they know nothing about it, either.07:54
mvocjwatson, bzoltan: going further on the chroot creation for 15.04 I think we need to split ubuntu-sdk-libs-dev into -dev and -tools and the later will contain all the native arch tools like cmake,python3. then we install -libs:$targetarch, -libs-dev:$targetarch, -libs-tools:$native-arch - any thoughts or concerns about this approach?08:14
dholbachgood morning08:14
bzoltanmvo: yeps08:15
bzoltanmvo:  the oxide in the silo13 is good, the arch specific conflict definition works08:15
mvobzoltan: nice!08:16
mvobzoltan: did you create a chroot? I was running into the problem that it pulled in py3:armhf but we really need py3:amd64 of course (same is going to happen for cmake) - this is why I think we want to split -dev into -dev and -tools so that we have a clean speration here, I prepared this already08:16
justCarakasGood morning all :)08:18
bzoltanmvo:  python is a troublemaker .. .but the ubuntu-sdk-libs installed without problem08:21
bzoltanmvo:  it seems we came to the same conclusion in the same minute :D08:21
mvobzoltan: cool, I update the seeds and generate this new -tools package then08:22
bzoltanogra_:  yes here :)08:23
ogra_bzoltan, well, seems mvo is on top of the issue08:24
bzoltanogra_:  is it a custom for -dev packages to pull dev tools?08:24
mvoogra_: what is the issue you see?08:24
ogra_no, usuall not08:24
mvoogra_: I am on top of something :) not sure its the same though08:24
ogra_mvo, the issue ? that bzoltan pinged me in another channel and started the very same conversation with me :)08:25
bzoltanogra_:  mvo: I am pretty much in the relaxed state of mind and I know what we are doing :)08:25
ogra_bzoltan, right, let mvo just handle it then :)08:25
bzoltanogra_: mvo: we split the -lib-dev and make a tools package just for building .. no IDE stuff08:26
mvobzoltan, ogra_: cool, yeah it looks like we are all on the same page08:27
bzoltanmvo:  yeps..  you have all rights to fix the seeds, right? Or do you want me to make an MR for it?08:27
UbUntUToUchLoverFinally got IRC working right. Here's more proof of wesnoth's work, for anybody interested: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2406766&page=508:28
mvobzoltan: yeah, I have the required privs: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-touch.vivid/revision/26908:29
bzoltanmvo:  hehe :) I see you are already doingit08:29
bzoltanmvo:  you just changed between my two F5 hits ...:D cool, thanks08:29
bzoltanmvo:  that (ubuntu-html5-theme-examples) is deprecated08:30
UbUntUToUchLoverThere's pictures, links to images, and the little info I know about wesnoth.08:30
bzoltanmvo:  and you know what? We could add the new qt5-qmake-arm-linux-gnueabihf to that meta package08:31
mvobzoltan: indeed08:32
bzoltanmvo:  so, there will not be need to do other mod in the click than add the ubuntu-sdk-tools in native to the chroot08:32
mvobzoltan: yeah08:32
mvobzoltan: nice that it comes together08:32
bzoltanmvo:  to be honest I was surprised that this odd conflict definition worked out ... it is actually documented exactly that way in the debian docs08:33
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mardymarcustomlinson: ping09:32
marcustomlinsonmardy: pong09:32
mardymarcustomlinson: in ubuntu-rtm, we see some requests for authentication coming from scoperunner (with the youtube scope)09:33
mardymarcustomlinson: these requests don't have the UI policy set to "no interaction", so they generate a snap decision09:34
mardymarcustomlinson: did you say that all the requests from the scope have the no-ui-policy flag set?09:35
marcustomlinsonmardy: no, I use the default ui policy because of that issue where the scope can't subscribe to a signal that tells it "new token granted"09:36
marcustomlinsonmardy: so there's no way for a running scope to know that it should ask for the token again09:36
marcustomlinsonmardy: as far as I see it, if you remove that snap decision fallback, everything will just work (and work better)09:37
marcustomlinsonmardy: we only expect the UI to show up from the dash process, and scopes show the need for a new token by returning a log-in button09:37
marcustomlinsonmardy: so I think your change will not effect us09:38
mardymarcustomlinson: that will be equivalent to you setting the no-ui-policy09:38
nhainesI have a couple built in apps on ubuntu-rtm/14.09 r10 that had icons disappear in the Dash Apps scope at some point.  Does anyone want me to check anything about that before I reset the phone?09:38
marcustomlinsonmardy: when will this change happen? do you have a branch/silo I can test?09:39
mardymarcustomlinson: I think that we will anyway do as you say (remove the snap decision path), but I'd rather have the clients migrate to the no-ui-policy first, so that they can do that at their own pace09:39
mardymarcustomlinson: you (the scopes) have a nice fallback on the dash, but I'm afraid that account-polld and sync-monitor are not ready for this change09:40
mardymarcustomlinson: so if you set the no-ui-policy bit, that would fix the issue with the scopes, without affecting the other projects (from which I haven't yet seen the snap decision, yet)09:41
marcustomlinsonmardy: sure I understand. what kind of timeline are we talking here? When will your change happen?09:42
mardymarcustomlinson: so, we have a silo ready (#9 on ubuntu-rtm), maybe you could propose a MP for the no-ui-policy and we could add it to the same silo?09:43
marcustomlinsonmardy: really really not that simple09:44
marcustomlinsonmardy: I rely on the ui policy at the moment09:44
mardymarcustomlinson: but I think we don't see these issues in vivid... do you know why?09:44
marcustomlinsonmardy: no idea09:44
dbarth_marcustomlinson: yes, if that makes sense, i was not seeing so many auth prompts while testing on vivid09:45
mardymarcustomlinson: but wait: if you set the no-ui-policy bit, you will get an error, and the scope will generate the "login" result for the dash09:45
mardymarcustomlinson: then when the user clicks that, the dash does the auth with the full ui; I think that this is already working, isn't it?09:45
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marcustomlinsonmardy: its complicated to explain it all, but essentially that scope relies on callbacks to get new tokens, it doesn't ask for the token every search like we decided on in Washington09:46
marcustomlinsonmardy: I need to change the logic in Youtube, Vimeo and SoundCloud scopes09:46
mardymarcustomlinson: ah, I see :-/09:47
mardymarcustomlinson: can I help somehow?09:48
marcustomlinsonmardy: I'll work on it today, but I can't guarantee you a speedy delivery09:49
JamesTaitGood morning all; happy Make A Gift Day! :-D09:50
mardymarcustomlinson: whatever, you rock as usual :-)09:50
matv1mardy fyi as you were helpfull on this before, I have reopened https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-system-settings-online-accounts/+bug/138902809:51
ubot5Launchpad bug 1389028 in ubuntu-system-settings-online-accounts (Ubuntu) "u1 account crashes and gets removed when installing app" [Undecided,In progress]09:51
matv1mardy i am not sure what we can still do at this point though09:52
dholbachpete-woods, do you know if https://code.launchpad.net/~dholbach/cmake-extras/1394648 is getting landed?09:55
pete-woodsdholbach: Saviq is preparing a landing for some cmake-extras stuff right now09:56
pete-woodsnot sure about that MR09:56
Saviqpete-woods, dholbach, yeah, that's the first that's going in09:57
Saviq(well, second, counting the sync from archive first)09:57
Saviqvivid silo 109:57
mardymatv1: weeeird10:00
pete-woodsSaviq: is this MR already included in the archive sync? https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/cmake-extras/fix-xgettext/+merge/24009210:00
Saviqpete-woods, yes10:01
matv1mardy you are telling me :)10:01
Saviqpete-woods, this is actually already in the archive for some time now10:01
pete-woodsSaviq: okay, cool, just wanted to check10:01
pete-woodswill mark as merged10:01
Saviqpete-woods, https://code.launchpad.net/~saviq/cmake-extras/sync-archive/+merge/24350510:01
Saviqpete-woods, could get your ACK here then10:01
Saviqpete-woods, tx10:04
Saviqpete-woods, can I ask, what was the reason to add ALL?10:05
SaviqIMO this leads to crappy commits10:05
SaviqI'd rather see bug #1359667 fixed and do that there on release10:05
ubot5bug 1359667 in CI Train [cu2d] "There should be a hook mechanism available" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135966710:05
matv1mardy I am thinking there may be a more fundamental corruption in the U1 account. So maybe just ditching the entire account might just be a solution.10:06
pete-woodsSaviq: the people using the macro weren't happy/capable of running cmake targets manually10:06
Saviqpete-woods, oh interesting10:06
matv1mardy but a) I am not too keen on that and b) that would prevent us from troubleshooting in the future.10:06
mardymatv1: it would be interesting to see exactly at what time it's disappearing10:07
matv1mardy why?10:07
mardymatv1: ok, I watched your video again10:11
seb128is the phone (rtm image) supposed to get poll notifications from fb messenger?10:11
mardymatv1: the account creation actually failed, but for some reason the U1 account was shown in the UI10:12
mardymatv1: I think the U1 account plugin is doing something weird, I'll comment on the bug10:12
matv1mardy sorry i do not think that is right10:13
marcustomlinsonmardy: can I rather leave the ui policy as default? I'd really like the shell to reuse the same method10:13
mardymatv1: can you please do this test: create the U1 account, then exit from the system settings, then reopen it and check if the account is still there10:13
marcustomlinsonmardy: so essentially, from scope its the equivalent of no_ui_policy, and the shell continues to work as is10:13
matv1mardy sure give me a minute!10:13
marcustomlinsonmardy: both shell and scope use the same OnlineAccountClient API you see10:14
mardymarcustomlinson: I see... well, I'm not too confident on fixing it on our side right now, I'm afraid it might break some other uses cases10:15
marcustomlinsonmardy: it kinda over complicates things for us10:16
mardymarcustomlinson: can't you add a method which takes a flag for it, and make the current API just wrap it (so that the scopes won't change), and make the dash use the new method?10:16
mardymarcustomlinson: I understand that it complicates the things, but I also see it as the right thing to do: the scope doesn't want UI, so it should specify that10:17
marcustomlinsonmardy: actually I do want UI. you're taking it away fomr me ;)10:17
marcustomlinsonmardy: the only way to do what you're saying is to construct the OnlineAccountClient class with this flag. Its ugly cause it taints the API from a scope authors pov. "DONT USE THIS!"10:19
matv1mardy U1 account is stil there after leaving/restarting system settings. That was as I expected as again: only installing these 2 apps cause U1 account to crash. If i choose any other app, it installs fine.10:20
matv1mardy so that must mean that U1 account is registered correctly10:21
mardymatv1: no, actually I just saw that later in your video, when you go to the store to install the app, it brings you to the system settings again, and there the U1 account is no longer there10:22
mardymatv1: I'll comment on the bug10:22
mardymarcustomlinson: no, of course you shouldn't do that. The other option of course is duplicating the OnlineAccountClient library, but let's see what dbarth_ thinks10:24
matv1mardy yes but that was caused by trying to install one of the 'bad' apps. If  I had installed any other app, the install would have gone fine and the U1 account would still have been there.10:24
mardymatv1: this really cannot depend on the app; it must be just a coincidence10:24
matv1mardy i know how weird it sounds believe me10:25
matv1but then how am i able to replicate it almost every time10:25
mardydbarth_: so, solving the issue in the scopes is rather tedious; shall I just drop the snap-decision code path in ussoa?10:25
mardymatv1: maybe the deletion of the account happens by a background process, and it's not really depending on the app you want to install10:27
dbarth_mardy: just reading the logs10:27
matv1mardy I can really do this 10 times in a row with either of the 2 apps, and when i do it with any other, the U1 account survives and the app installs. I kid you not. That looks to me like there is a relation10:29
matv1mardy anyhow if you need anything else. Even using my U1 creds if needed. let me know. And thnks!10:30
mardymatv1: I added a comment; it may be a timing issue. Maybe the account gets deleted after N seconds10:35
matv1mardy great! lets hope ubuntuone-credentials can spot something. thnks again.10:39
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ogra-mobilesil2100, i have a complete internet breakdown over here, sorry for missing the meeting11:15
ogra-mobileasac ^^^^11:15
asacogra-mobile: no problem11:16
asacogra-mobile: ping us when back online :)11:16
ogra-mobileyeah, will do ... i wish i could get more than edge11:17
ogra-mobilemy krillin sucks indoors here11:17
sil2100Oh my!11:22
Sujeet_Hingewanna know how to installthe latest stable image on ubuntu emulator12:02
bzoltanmvo:  could you find somebody to approve the new seeds?12:10
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mvobzoltan: see #ubuntu-devel, any archive admin can approve it12:50
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jdstrandnhaines: fyi, data encryption is being worked on. also, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityAndPrivacySettings/ProtectingUserData12:59
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zygabeuno: hey14:32
beunozyga, hi14:33
zygabeuno: we (the canonical cert team) would like to upload checkbox touch 1.0.1 to the store, it's in the com.canonical namespace, it's an unconfined application14:33
zygabeuno: I heard you're the person to talk to14:33
zygabeuno: the app works on kryllin and nexus 7 and is all open source and available for general consumption14:33
zygabeuno: the app is designed as a post-sales support app for $secret_operator_name14:34
zygabeuno: if we release 1.0.1 click package today, could we ask you to look at it and tell us how that works?14:34
beunojdstrand would review the app from a security perspective14:36
beunoand approve it on the store14:36
beunoI'm not sure who currently owns the com.canonical namespace14:36
zygaok, one thing, who do I send it to? I cannot upload it as it's com.canonical14:36
beunopopey may know14:36
zygato you or jdstrand?14:36
zygaok, we'll release that to launchpad14:36
popeymirv or balloons can14:36
zygaand I'll send an email out to all three of you, CCing my manager14:37
popeywe upload com.ubuntu14:37
popeyone moment14:37
zygado you want us to change the app to .com.ubuntu then?14:37
popeywait 114:37
zygacurrently we use...14:37
popeyzyga: looking at my device the only com.canonical packages are scopes and payui, all the rest are com.ubuntu14:38
zygapopey: ok, sounds good to me14:38
zygapopey: the app is a generic test shell shipping the ubuntu touch test collection so that's even better14:38
zygapopey: I'll corret the namespace14:38
jgdxmpt, hi, do you know when you'll get a look at bug 1379850? I'm at the point where the spec fails me.14:39
ubot5bug 1379850 in Ubuntu UX "[system-settings] should allow switching 2nd SIM to 3G data" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/137985014:39
zygapopey: is there a policy that we should adhere to14:44
zygapopey: we're okay to make the change but we'd rather do that knowing exactly so that we don't need to undo it later14:44
popeyzyga: for everyone else it's com.ubuntu.developer.<developername>.<appname>14:45
popeywe have some which are com.ubuntu.<appname> but those are core / pre-installed apps14:45
zygapopey: our app is a team developed app14:45
zygapopey: but that's about the <developername>.<appname> or <appname>, I'm more interested in .canonical vs .ubuntu14:46
popeyi explained canonical vs ubuntu already...14:46
popeythe only canonical ones are scopes and payui14:46
popeythe rest are ubuntu14:46
sergiusenspopey: zyga webapps are com.ubuntu.developer.[web app launchpad team] fwiw14:47
popeyzyga: whats the team name?14:48
zygapopey: checkbox-dev14:48
zygapopey: or cert+infra (not sure what's the team name is now)14:48
popeywill there be more than one checkbox app?14:48
zygapopey: the code is owned by checkbox-dev14:48
zygapopey: it's not likely, we want to make that app play nice on all devices14:49
zygapopey: it will probably drop "touch" some time later14:49
zygapopey: and will be used on the desktop as well14:49
popeyso com.ubuntu.checkbox then is what I'd use.14:49
zygapopey: okay, that sounds good to me14:51
zygapopey: thanks14:51
jdstrandfyi, if it is in com.canonical, we can wave it through15:18
jdstrand(ie, unconfined is ok)15:18
mptjgdx, unfortunately it’s #17 on my list at the moment15:19
jdstrandthe manual review will always be triggered of course, but we can get it in easily15:19
jgdxmpt, right, but you're so efficient so that must mean it's done by, what, Friday?15:21
mptjgdx, something like that ;-)15:24
taiebotDoes login on the here maps web-app work? i have tried few times but it does not seem to work.15:33
oSoMoNMirv, in case you want to rebuild webbrowser-app for Qt 5.4: https://code.launchpad.net/~osomon/webbrowser-app/qt54/+merge/24355115:35
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viejotrenHi, I'm working with ubuntu-sdk and with thje scope template, I did some modifications, such as images, colors and some options, but for some reasons those changes are not displayed, I rebuilt the project already, am i missing something?16:07
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mvobzoltan: https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/click/chroot-15.04-multiarch/+merge/243493 - works for me now16:45
bzoltanmvo: I check it in a sec16:46
mvobzoltan: no rush, but if it works I can land it tomorrow morning or later tonight16:46
bzoltanmvo:  OK16:46
mvobzoltan: but I'm really happy with the solutionn, feels very clean now16:46
bzoltanmvo:  yes it feels better now.16:47
bzoltanmvo:  could you please push an other change into the sdk-tools to contain the cross qmake?16:52
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taiebotBlabble is broken on my phone. Its weird i used to have it installed but no it appears not there. so when i try to install it it fails.17:13
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popeyogra_: I've been tempted to get a OnePlus phone to try and go through the porting guide steps17:46
ogra_popey, oh god17:48
ogra_i guess there will be many many roadblocks ...17:49
ogra_but doing a port is the only way to get it back in shape17:49
rodney77Hi, do you guys have a list of devices that support ubuntu touch? Is it still just nexus devices?17:57
popeyogra_: yeah, but at least there's an AOSP build, which helps, and I think it's MKT18:00
ogra_ah, if you have an AOSP tree that shouldnt be to hard at least, yeah18:00
popeywhat I don't have is the device ☻18:03
popeyneed an invite18:03
nerochiaroalesage: hi, any news on how to add code coverage to that branch I mentioned to you yesterday ?18:07
nerochiaroalesage: if you find out can you please send me an email ? i won't be online in the next few days18:08
alesagenerochiaro, ok--sorry, slipped my mind, will do this week :)18:08
nerochiaroalesage: much appreciated18:08
alesagenerochiaro, and send a mail/bug18:08
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nhainesjdstrand: vague, handwavey plans that aren't prioritised doesn't make Ubuntu Touch more secure than Android today, when a novice user has a tablet in his hands and is asking which OS should he flash to be secure.19:56
lotuspsychjesecurity is a vague conecept...the moment you get online its a risk19:57
dobeythat's why i live in a cave and don't use phones or the internet at all20:01
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jdstrandnhaines: that was harsh. they aren't vague handwavy plans-- it is something being designed now22:04
jdstrandso, no, there is no fs encryption no, but yes, there will be22:05
nhainesjdstrand: Features get postponed all the time and who knows when something designed now will see a phone (July?).  I always advise people to make decisions based on features present and not features promised.23:52
nhainesSo while I'm looking forward to full-device encryption (which will almost certainly be solid and secure), it has to ship before I use it as a feature bulletpoint with users.23:54

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