=== kloeri_ is now known as kloeri [07:52] good morning [10:46] dholbach, do you know if the changes to the developer site to fix those bugs were deployed? I think something went wrong, as I see the "Report a bug on this page" link all over the place -> e.g. http://developer.ubuntu.com/scopes/guides/scopes-guide/ [10:48] we might need mhall119 to come online, as I don't know how he originally implemented the "Report bug" link [10:55] hum [10:55] I didn't touch that part of the theme :-/ [10:55] dholbach, yeah, I know, I think something must have gone wrong with the deployment [10:56] sorry, I'm no help here [10:57] http://paste.ubuntu.com/9365710/ are the changes I made [10:57] the last changes before that were: [10:57] 102. By Michael Hall on 2014-05-08 [10:57] Make bug reporting links more visible, but also less intrusive [10:58] hum... looking at the diff between 101..102, I wonder if this change ever landed before.... [10:58] + Report a bug on this page

[10:59] ^ that's the last line of the diff - it sounds like it adds a bug link to the top as well [10:59] which is what we're seeing now [13:04] dholbach: that never landed before, yes, but it was ready [13:17] ahhh ok [13:41] aloha [13:43] yo [13:54] so timezones, things I can do without :) [16:50] popey, your blog seems to be down? http://popey.com/blog/ [16:50] huh [16:50] bah! [16:50] you're probably just too popular! [16:51] haha! [18:20] hmm [18:20] I'm not understanding the problem we're trying to solve after reading the CC notes from the meeting [18:21] jcastro: http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion lists problems and questions that might help (or might not) [18:22] yea but some of these are no brainers [18:22] oh? which ones? [18:22] of course no one goes to summits, we don't mention them on the website at all [18:22] you either need to follow the right people or be on /r/ubuntu to even know we have summits [18:23] or Facebook, or G+, or Twitter [18:23] or planet [18:23] right, but we don't say [18:23] I agree though. [18:23] "come to this summit, this is where ubuntu is shaped" [18:23] It should be splashed on ubuntu.com [18:23] put out a press release [18:24] we never splashed in-person UDS on ubuntu.com did we? [18:24] but that wasn't open to public [18:24] it technically was [18:24] sure it was [18:24] if you could go on your own time and dime [18:24] I did that for my first one [18:24] "hey upstreams we'll be in berlin on these days" brought in people [18:24] hm, okay. [18:24] so did i [18:25] but an in person event is way bigger deal than "Some people are having a video chat" [18:25] right [18:25] "I'm going to a tech conference" is an event [18:25] +1 [18:25] "I need to take some time during work to listen to a G+" is not [18:25] s/listen/contribute to/ [18:26] right [18:26] so, I also think there's a big fundamental piece we're missing here [18:26] if you look at people who used to contribute to ubuntu [18:26] but don't anymore [18:26] it's pretty simple [18:27] building stuff on top of ubuntu is way more fun, rewarding, and challenging than building ubuntu [18:27] thats exactly what sabdfl was getting at [18:27] nobody cares about the OS, it's there for you to build openstack, juju, or docker on top [18:27] yeah, I see that [18:27] * skellat is just now reading the Community Council meeting log and is reserving any remarks until he finishes [18:27] though, in my role on the CC, I need to make sure the other, less exciting, teams are being supported [18:27] I'm just saying, maybe that's not a bad thing? [18:27] right, I agree with that, but the question still remains "why don't people contribute on top of the OS but *within* the project" [18:27] we will always still need docs and QA [18:28] mhall119, because for most intents and purposes, the platform is "finished" [18:28] i suspect mhall119 because they don't feel empowered to, or that they don't need to. [18:28] popey: yeah [18:28] jcastro: right, I agree with you there, and I personally think that's a good thing, but the "project" isn't finished [18:28] right [18:28] why would an icon designer want to go through the grief of making a debian package [18:28] which is in an archive somewhere obscure [18:28] when they could have a nice flashy website and a link [18:28] popey: I think you're right on the "don't need to", but I suspect there's also a large portion of "and it's faster and easier to not work within the project" [18:29] +1 [18:29] look at core apps (sorry), those people aren't hampered anywhere near as much in what they're doing [18:29] so how do we make it faster and easier to work *within* the project? [18:29] popey: design is tricky, I'd argue we don't welcome them at all because the design process on the desktop is pretty closed (arguably by necessity, it's hard) [18:29] right [18:29] pleia2: so that was the anecdote I didn't get a chance to bring up [18:30] pleia2: indeed, and we have history of rejecting contributions after the fact [18:30] "Nice icon, no thanks" [18:30] design-wise the only way I see anyone getting anything it is 1) a wallpaper 2) a flavor [18:30] icon themes in the store [18:30] there is currently several design-oriented projects happening just outside of the Ubuntu project orbit, Numix, Moka and the new Quantum OS [18:30] numix is one of the most purchased things! [18:30] It just seems to me that it should be ok to say, ubuntu-the-product is boring and generally finnished, but ubuntu the project has tons of things around it that need work [18:30] popey: interesting [18:30] and as far as I can tell, all of those designers got started *within* the Ubuntu project [18:31] popey: and yet, our artwork mailing list is dead, and even I didn't know this existed [18:31] jcastro: +1, that's my stance [18:31] so for example when we say "loco events are going down" and we look at this as a bad thing [18:31] we need to think, seriously who wants to have a party for an operating system in 2014? [18:31] pleia2: because again, this is happening just outside of the Ubuntu project space [18:31] mhall119: yeah [18:32] jcastro: Android people do [18:32] mhall119, yeah but they have shiny devices every few months to entice things like that [18:32] not to say we won't [18:32] so will we soon ☻ [18:32] true [18:32] but that brings peoples to events [18:32] right so contrast "hey loco team let's have a release party" [18:33] vs. "hey loco team let's have an openstack tech day" [18:33] jcastro: so put out a differently colored cloud box every 6 months, and we're good [18:33] replace openstack with docker, juju, hadoop or whatever. [18:33] jcastro: oh, that's a great idea! [18:33] right, the os is a means not an end [18:33] Backing up jcastro somewhat: http://erielookingproductions.info/ubuntu/2014/11/60-ruminating-on-black-friday [18:34] "we have ubuntu and that's all well and good, but at this even we're going to _solve this computing problem_." [18:34] and that can be "how do I use a new ubuntu phone" or whatever cloud specific bits [18:34] It is mostly we don't have an end-user consumer story [18:34] it's not "hey guys, it's been 6 months, let's get drunk and celebrate ubuntu" [18:34] those were the days ;) [18:35] yeah, and that's fine if people want to do that [18:35] I'm just saying, it should be totally fine for ubuntu to be the road instead of the destination. [18:35] our global jam events actually are more successful events [18:35] * mhall119 notes jcastro's idea down in the etherpad [18:35] coincidentally I sent this to my loco team today https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2014-December/038109.html [18:35] we actually have a plan, do stuff [18:35] pleia2: That's not a plan [18:35] skellat: our global james are very well planned [18:36] it has had zero replies so far, but a thread about "how old is your computer" has! :D [18:36] our == ubuntu california [18:36] right, because teams are also social structures [18:36] it takes me like 2 days to prepare for them [18:36] pleia2: In that context, yes [18:36] California gets it right [18:36] Ohio has been a miserable failure at them for years now [18:36] our release party in october was a total flop though [18:36] like I would see the loco events going down as just an absence of purpose [18:37] before it's like, "have two parties a year" [18:37] speaker canceled, didn't even send slides so someone else could pick it up, not much changed with 14.10 anyway [18:37] then hardly anyone showed up [18:37] if you don't tell people what to do, it always comes down to "well let's just meet and drink beer" [18:37] the _real question_ should be something like [18:38] and at least here, there are about 24323 events per night where you can chat with tech people and get free beer [18:38] "ok, ubuntu team X, how many of you have done say, a local openstack day?" [18:38] or "docker day" [18:38] or "how to deploy things onto digital ocean" or something [18:38] (my examples are all cloud examples, but you get the idea) [18:38] jcastro: I've had folks say no to infrastructure stuff. They like it in Ohio but they don't want to be social about it. [18:38] and that's _fine_ [18:38] They even *use it* too [18:38] * mhall119 volunteers jcastro to fly out to Florida to give a juju talk to the Florida team [18:39] skellat: well, find something that appeals to your community then, in a social way? [18:39] but I refuse to believe no one in ohio is interested in docker, or mesos, or something [18:39] pleia2: That's what I have been bouncing off my three deputies to think about [18:39] skellat: I've been thinking of doing a member survey for california [18:40] interests, what would make them come to an event [18:40] speaking of juju, I need to get back to work stuff, highlight me if you need me [18:40] mhall119: As I've said before...if somebody can find me a couch to sleep on and can put up transportation I am willing to go visit a LoCo to speak since I am currently the only anglophone member of LoCo Council let alone the only one in North America [18:40] yeah, work [18:41] \o/ EoD [18:41] go away popey [18:41] Work? I'm stuck on furlough until $AGENCY says otherwise. I hope to return to active paid status some day. [18:41] also \o/ EoW :D [18:41] go away popey [18:41] popey: now you're just showing off :) [18:41] skellat: sorry :\ [18:42] had too much holiday left at the end of the year [18:42] * skellat sets launch coordinates to range on popey [18:42] :-) [18:42] send in the drones! [18:42] Tomorrow I am going to maybe start a game for Ubuntu phone :D [18:42] sweet! [18:42] popey, make pocket trains for the phone please [18:42] link? [18:43] to play store or whatever [18:43] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nimblebit.pockettrains&hl=en [18:43] simple concept [18:43] oh [18:43] i know nimblebit [18:43] I have pocket planes and tiny tower [18:43] irritatingly addictive [18:43] me too, I've sent them too much money [18:44] and one time, marcoceppi missed his plane because of them [18:44] though he blames me [18:44] haha [18:44] hah [18:44] it is your fault [18:44] we had an idea of not making it a total ripoff [18:44] 3 months and non stop "marco install pocket trains!!!" [18:44] call it "pocket shuttles" in space [18:44] ☻ [18:45] hahaha yesss! [18:45] I remember talking about this [18:45] pocket trains in space [18:45] anyway so my general gist, is that it should be totally fine for people to morph their group into something that might not be directly related to the core OS. [18:46] If that's like 2 motivated people showing up to an docker meetup to talk about how to best build an ubuntu docker image, then that should "count" [18:47] jcastro: Could you write that up and e-mail it to what is left of the LoCo Council for consideration? That falls within our bailiwick. loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com [18:47] sure but after work [18:48] I wasn't expecting to go all manifesto and now I'm behind on some time-sensitive things [18:48] like my scale submission,lol. [18:48] is it really a loco-council thing? I'm thinking loco-contacts discussion [18:48] didnt we shut that list down? [18:48] ㋛ [18:49] are you thinking of sounder? [18:49] that was shut down [18:49] by some guy [18:49] yeah, that guy [18:49] he got his silver dollar though! [18:49] ooh, i could make a game called Sounder [18:50] where you just mash buttons to complain about ubuntu [18:51] pleia2: Council first. We can put at least something together with additional viewpoints/discussion that then gets thrown out there for community consultation. [18:51] popey: what happened to Jono Head? [18:51] haha [18:51] mhall119, still on my neck [18:51] hang on [18:51] yep, still there [18:51] popey: make a flappy jono game [18:51] just checked :-) [18:51] LOL [18:52] pleia2: We need to be kinder/gentler after the whole Iberian saga so us doing a consultation and collecting responses would be a good thing. [18:53] skellat: well, I was thinking the opposite, more needs to happen in public initially with the entire community [18:53] LC should only really step in when needed, I don't see that all ideas need to pass through the LC first [18:53] Perhaps [18:54] However, we still need to check the congruence of loco-contacts subscriptions and the actual points of contact [18:54] I'm thinking they're pretty diverged by now [18:54] part of the Iberian saga was that it was all discussed privately, so when decisions came it felt like it came out of nowhere and there was a lot of explaining that we'd been working on things for months [18:54] I know [18:54] loco-contacts is actually just folks intereted in locos, it should reall just be ubuntu-locos :) [18:54] LC has blog tools, human capital to spend on contacting points of contact individually, etc. [18:54] * popey looks up congruence [18:56] It would be a bunch of 1 to 1 contacts but we could conceivably reach out to all the points of contact who are listed. We would hit more of them than we would using loco-contacts. [18:56] popey: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/congruence [18:56] well yes, I can do that. [18:57] :-) [19:00] pleia2: That's actually a programming task that I know needs to be done but I don't have the skill set to accomplish. It would involve pulling the subscribers roster from loco-contacts, filtering out the ones who have NOMAIL set, pulling the contact addresses of owners of teams in the pad.lv/~locoteams set, and then comparing the two. [19:00] skellat: what's the goal? I think it's great that anyone who is interested subscribes [19:01] pleia2: We don't have a reliable means currently of reaching all 179 LoCo points of contact [19:02] ah, gotcha [19:02] yeah, I don't know that you ever will [19:02] even if they are subscribed, some people don't even bother with email these days [19:02] ugh, and here's another one [19:02] (sorry to be ranting) [19:03] I go "ok I would like to hang out with ubuntu users" [19:03] I go on meetup.com and do a search, I see, ubuntu vancouver and ubuntu perth. [19:03] the entire rest of the project is missing [19:03] Yep [19:03] 2014, and here we are with mailman [19:03] thumbs up! [19:03] We have a workitem this cycle on that [19:04] * note, sarcastic thumbs [19:04] I know [19:04] http://www.meetup.com/find/?allMeetups=false&keywords=docker&radius=Infinity&userFreeform=Ypsilanti%2C+MI&mcId=c48197&mcName=Ypsilanti%2C+MI&sort=default [19:04] blam, look at that, EVERYWHERE. [19:04] meetup costs and is closed source [19:05] so what [19:05] The question LC has to look at it is use of platforms like meetup.com, global market penetration, is it appropriate for all teams to use in all places, and can there be a dissipation of effort trying to have a presence on all social media platforms. [19:05] those people found a way to use it [19:05] and guess what, over 80% of those people doing those docker meetups will be using ..... ubuntu [19:05] do the same search for openstack, etc. same thing [19:06] there are companies who will cover meetup costs for open source groups, and it has come up recently in california that we should use one, but I still don't have to like using a proprietary tool :P [19:06] and it's historically why we haven't [19:06] I think that's organizationally short sighted [19:07] openstack people love OSS too and there's page after page of meetups [19:07] And it comes back to LC hammering out "best practices" as the last 10 verification applications have shown community teams across the planet using a wide variety of tools instead of meetup.com alone [19:07] Some, believe it or not, actually even use LoCo Team Portal! [19:07] jcastro: not sure I agree with that last statement ;) [19:07] pleia2, ok let me put it another way [19:08] some openstack people love OSS, but I work with plenty of people with proprietary backgrounds who are new to all of this and feel OSS is a good tool in this circumstance [19:08] if 2008 me were to go forward in time to 2014 jorge and say "you should check out ubuntu and participate, join this mailing list" I would literally punch my older self in the face. [19:09] so using meetup is natural for them, because they're just tech people with budgets (companies often sponsor the meetup groups, including fees) [19:09] Ubuntu is a traditionally a very different place, we built our whole loco team portal [19:09] other oss projects seem to be finding a way to do it [19:09] I'm not saying it's the right way, just explaining why [19:09] oh I understand why [19:09] I'm just saying we need to think bigger [19:10] probably [19:10] http://fsf.meetup.com/ [19:10] wow, this gets even more embarrassing for us! [19:11] actually, not so bad: http://ubuntu.meetup.com/ [19:11] only one loco though [19:12] pleia2, aha! and the top one is actually a Docker group! [19:12] well, none, since vancouver is not a loco :P [19:13] indeed, and mostly generic linux groups [19:13] I think that's ok [19:13] yep [19:14] like, snark aside, well, not aside [19:14] if someone were to say "we're like a loco but we don't make you use a mailing list and send in approval forms" [19:14] I'd be like, ok, sounds great! [19:14] we already do that [19:14] I get to drink the same beer twice a year! [19:14] there are just some wires crossed about verification [19:15] for some reason teams believe it's required to be a real loco [19:15] in hindsight verification sounded like a good idea at the time [19:15] but really it's just a community process so companies can assign goodies to teams who are known (canonical, pearson) [19:15] right [19:16] we should have named it "don't waste the swag form" and everything would have been fine [19:16] oh well, hindsight 20/20 [19:16] and I wish it was less about "approval forms" and more about "share your stories so you can inspire others" [19:16] it's really hard to find loco event news, I try [19:17] Again: http://erielookingproductions.info/ubuntu/2014/11/57-verifying-verification [19:17] If I need to start engraving that and doing ballistic drops so people read it, so be it [19:18] LC really looks at verification as time to ask what's going on, do you need help, where can we assist [19:18] that's my point [19:18] yeah, that's helpful stuff too [19:18] no one's going to read that [19:18] that's not like your fault or anything, I'm just saying people don't read or care about that sort of thing [19:18] I again refer to my BOFH-lite proposition above [19:19] people go "oh it's the weekend and I don't have stuff to do, let me see what's going on this weekend tech-wise around me" [19:19] and then they go [19:20] Which is a difference in focus than how some regard community teams, I think [19:20] One complaint we hear is that showmanship does not come naturally to many community team leaders [19:20] jcastro: well, there's also a difference between organizers and attendees [19:21] but most organizers don't want to do team reports either [19:21] you don't necessarily have to be a showman [19:21] pleia2, that's because we make team reports sound like a burden [19:21] instead of "man we did awesome stuff today I can't wait to talk about it to everyone" [19:21] it's like "ugh, I have to do a team report, lame." [19:22] even the name makes me want to not do one [19:22] I like them :D [19:22] but I also like wikis and email, so [19:23] :) [19:23] ok one more example and then I'm done [19:23] so this happened to me at re:invent [19:23] I was walking around and then the netflix devops guys were there [19:23] and they gave me cool team swag, and talked about how much they loved ubuntu [19:23] and how awesome it was working out for them [19:23] and all the usual bits [19:24] so I'm like awesome, we say Netflix uses ubuntu and that's fine, but it's way cooler when they say it [19:24] so I'm like hey how can we make it better, what do you guys need from us? [19:24] and so on. [19:24] nothing, zero, zilch. [19:24] they love ubuntu because it literally doesn't bother them [19:24] it's so boring that they just don't have to care as much [19:25] and this is the biggest challenge because it's the same thing with keeping people excited about the core OS. [19:25] you can't really when the thing is just an invisible piece of furniture [19:26] And we don't have much consumer-facing anything that you can walk into a Wal-Mart or Best Buy to purchase at the moment either which keeps us even more invisible [19:26] it wasn't until later when I was sitting with moser and was all depressed about it when he was like "the majority of internet traffic in north america is going through ubuntu, I think you're overreacting." [19:26] and he kind of has a point [19:28] also, this is a cloud guy's perception [19:28] so take that with a grain of salt [19:28] jcastro: At the community team level, we're still looking at a retail/consumer perspective. We're just not there **yet**. Cloud and the like, we're there. We have to fix that. [19:29] sure, I get that [19:29] "get people pumped up about this phone that no one can buy yet" is kind of hard [19:29] We can get the back-end folks for cloud all we want [19:29] If anything, you say we've got that market [19:29] It is the retail/consumer side we don't have [19:30] System76 gets us part of the way there but they're a single OEM partner [19:30] Dell is a partner [19:30] And you still can't walk into a store and buy something that runs Unity [19:31] Android, WP8, Windows 8, MacOS X...sure. Unity, nope. [19:32] We have gaps to bridge [19:33] By the way, jcastro, what is your SCALE proposal topic? [19:33] I dunno, some juju thing with marcoceppi [19:33] don't have any specifics yet [19:33] Okay [19:34] probably elasticsearch and then some accumulo thing with hadoop [19:34] I have to get back to writing Sunday's guest sermon as I'll be preaching from 2 Peter 3. Sounds like you'll have some cool stuff on display, though. [19:34] hopefully! [19:40] jcastro: we having a charm school again? [19:40] next week I think? [19:40] let me check [19:40] no, I mean at scale [19:40] that's this week [19:40] oh, we're not sponsoring so I don't think we'll get a full half-day like we did before [19:41] but yeah, we should [19:41] jose, did you want to submit one? [19:41] probably, I'm not sure if I'm going [19:41] I need to ask my parents (which is most likely a yes) and then ask the community team for CDA funding [19:44] jcastro: at what time is our charm school tomorrow? [19:44] 3pm EST [19:44] always at 3 [19:45] ack [20:21] pleia2, I found this amusing and I think you will too: http://englishrussia.com/2010/07/30/sysadmin-day-in-russia/ [20:23] belkinsa: haha, that's wonderful [20:23] I want a motherboard cake [20:29] mmm cake [21:01] pleia2: plan for later again? I closed the window :( [21:02] czajkowski: I'll msg :) [21:10] belkinsa: is the UW team still developing Harvest? [21:11] mhall119, we are, but we are at the testing the bug stage. [21:11] ok, are you open to feature ideas? [21:11] We are, but I think doing them in bug form is the best idea. [21:12] the meeting earlier got me thinking that we could use a good way to answer "what can I contribute to", and having a harvest page that serves up one random bug each page load might do that [21:12] I like that idea. [21:17] belkinsa: filed a bug for it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/harvest/+bug/1399441 [21:17] Launchpad bug 1399441 in harvest "Provide a "Random Bug" page" [Undecided,New] [21:18] Thank you. [21:29] jcastro: FWIW, there's no reason LoCo teams can't be using meetup.com already [21:29] LTP's events system was build because they weren't [21:59] mhall119, yeah but they're not, but other projects are [21:59] to great success it seems [22:05] jcastro: I'm not sure about that === PabloRubianes_ is now known as PabloRubianes [22:05] meet up is also rather costly [22:06] and while many do it also can inhibit use due to cost [22:06] under a chapter ac it's like $10 a month per group [22:06] over 100 groups and a $10 per month mounts up [22:08] fair enough [22:09] it also gets tricky when an owner goes MIA, right now we work with launchpad and canonical sysadmins, we'd instead have to work with meetup to regain control of groups [22:09] if they don't pay after a year it does get released, but :\ [22:09] indeed [22:10] tbh, california will probably end up getting a meetup group because that's what people use here, but it's not without downsides [22:11] and I still won't like it :) [22:11] ce la vie [22:11] c'est too [22:11] would you like it if they added moinmoin to meetup? [22:11] * jcastro snickers [22:12] czajkowski, what is $10/month per group? [22:12] jono: meetup.com [22:12] * jono is looking for user group management software [22:12] czajkowski, ahhh [22:12] they don't have a self hosted service do they? [22:12]