=== doko_ is now known as doko
* slangasek waves16:00
* stgraber waves16:00
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Dec  4 16:03:55 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.16:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick16:03
slangasek[TOPIC] Lightning round16:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
slangasek$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)16:04
slangasekrobru caribou infinity bdmurray cjwatson slangasek sil2100 jodh barry mvo doko stgraber16:04
slangasekrobru: tag!16:04
sil2100robru won!16:04
robrugimme a sec16:05
slangasekrobru: should we come back to you?16:06
robru* New CI Train Publish job16:06
robru  - half as long as previous job16:06
robru  - test coverage improved from 34% to 100% (bringing overall coverage up to 60%)16:06
robru  - average function length down from 200 lines to 15 lines16:06
robru  - average function arguments count down from 12 to 216:06
robru  - massive improvement in readability, maintainability, testability16:06
robru* Fixed watch_ppa arch-watching regressions16:06
robru  - now correctly only fails build if that build failure is an arch regression compared to what is built in the ubuntu archive16:06
robru* various bug fixes and test improvements16:06
robru* small charm fixes to make citrain deployable again16:06
caribouSystemd : Get makedumpfile to work under systemd16:07
caribouMakedumpfile : Backport kernel 3.16 support in version 1.5.3 for Jessie16:07
caribouGet makedumpfile 1.5.3-2 to pass Debian freeze16:07
barryrobru: \o/16:07
slangasek(fyi several of us have a conflicting meeting at half past, so we probably want to blast through this :)16:07
infinity- short week, due to illness16:07
infinity- Kernel SRU wrangling16:07
infinity- debian-installer update for lts-utopic kernels16:07
infinity- testing the above in several configurations16:07
infinity- auditing powerpc utility packages in utopic for suitability for backport-as-SRU to trusty16:07
infinity- general SRU/AA admin tasks16:07
bdmurraythis covers the past two weeks (minus holidays) since I missed the last meeting16:08
bdmurraycreated of a graphite graph for retracer time to retrace16:08
bdmurrayworked with webops to switch errors to using PS4 swift while dumping retracer backlog16:08
bdmurrayphone call meeting regarding retracers in scaling stack16:08
bdmurraymodified daisy to write duplicatesignature in oops cf for python tracebacks16:08
bdmurrayupdated errors to use duplicate signature as SAS for linking back to the bucket16:08
bdmurraymodified daisy's retracer.py to write RetraceFailureReason et al to the OOPS CF (r585)16:08
bdmurrayhad apport updated on the tracers16:08
bdmurraywrote missing ddebs finder to only look at retracing failures16:08
bdmurrayreported apport bug LP: #1394798 (duplicate Contents.gz)16:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1394798 in Apport "Contents.gz files exist multiple times in sandboxes" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139479816:08
bdmurraytested fix for apport bug 1394798 (Contents.gz) in canonistack16:08
bdmurrayresearched bug LP: #1394919 (recoverable problem crashing on pids it can't read)16:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1377332 in cgmanager (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1394919 [TOPBLOCKER] UI randomly freezes" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/137733216:08
bdmurrayreported daisy bug LP: #1396389 regarding backfill of duplicate signatures16:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1396389 in Daisy "backfill duplicate signatures for python crashes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139638916:08
bdmurrayuploaded more packages (gnome-keyring, x11-utils, taglib, shadow, …) to get missing ddebs16:08
bdmurrayubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage16:08
bdmurraycreated a test case for the trusty fix of bug 1313165 (update-manager-kde blacklist)16:09
ubottubug 1313165 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Trusty) "removal blacklist matches update-manager-kde which is not critical anymore" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/131316516:09
bdmurrayuploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader for trusty-proposed fixing LP: #131316516:09
bdmurrayadded rls-v- reports to qa.ubuntu.com16:09
bdmurray✔ done16:09
cjwatsonoh it's me16:10
slangasekyah :)16:10
cjwatsonOn vacation on Friday and Monday.  Rest of week almost entirely working on my maintenance backlog:16:10
cjwatson - Managed to kill ruby2.0 from vivid.  (Involved non-trivial work on ruby-libxml and ruby-patron.)16:11
cjwatson - Fought with the chain up to the protobuf merge (google-apputils-python, involving an MIR), got the libprotobuf9 transition going, and started coordination with ubuntu-phone.16:11
cjwatson - Switched out libusbx for libusb-1.0.16:11
cjwatson - Transitioned from libmusicbrainz5-0 to libmusicbrainz5-1.16:11
cjwatson - Rebuilt a load of stuff for libcfitsio2 (from libcfitsio3; don't ask, apparently).16:11
cjwatson - Shepherded the rails3 to rails transition through.16:11
cjwatson - Merged other things until my eyes bled.16:11
cjwatson - Generally trying to get process-removals output into a halfway decent state.16:11
cjwatsonWorking on improvements to component-mismatches to sort its output by teams.  Somewhat stalled but I'll pick this up again.16:11
cjwatsonMiscellaneous reviews and internal discussions.16:11
cjwatsonSeven days left.  Get your requests in now!16:11
cjwatsonslangasek: right back atcha16:12
slangasekoh indeed!16:12
slangasek * first report in a while:16:13
slangasek  * at the cloud sprint in Austin 2 weeks ago, good sync point with the CDO side of the company16:13
slangasek  * discussions around migrating buildds, porter boxes into *Stack16:13
slangasek  * Thanksgiving last week16:14
slangasek * still working on getting our open head count filled; some progress, we're in the paperwork/negotiation phase16:14
slangasek * rest of time taken up on embargoed projects16:14
slangasek * systemd virtual sprint postponed from first week of December, to January due to resources being reallocated to above embargoed projects16:14
cjwatsonoh porter boxes too?  I missed that detail16:14
sil2100- Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails16:14
sil2100- CI Train maintanance:16:14
sil2100  * Fixing random breakage here and there16:14
sil2100  * Trying to cope with some smaller copy2distro breakage16:14
sil2100  * Working on a rebuild-in-PPA build feature16:14
sil2100- Patch pilot duty:16:14
sil2100  * Clean up in LP bugs16:14
sil2100  * Testing, cleaning and publishing new runit16:14
sil2100- Tidying up bugs and landing-team tasks16:14
sil2100- Appmenu-qt5 fix for FTBFS for Qt 5.4.016:14
sil2100- RTM readiness meetings16:14
sil2100- Debates regarding the Gold Master image16:14
sil2100- Help in understanding some of the promotion-blocking bugs16:14
sil2100- Updates to the CI Train documentation16:14
sil2100- Reviewing new ideas regarding Landing classes proposition16:14
sil2100- Chasing down IS/webops regarding the recent CI Train incident16:14
sil2100- More meetings related to the new CI Train database user interface from CI16:15
sil2100- Some additional sick days at the start of this week16:15
sil2100- Tasks related to making vivid promotion-ready16:15
jodh_* Full time on an internal project16:15
slangasekcjwatson: ah, did you not get included on that thread?  fwiw the thought is that since the porter boxes are abnormal wrt current IS practices, given that we're supposed to have all three supported arch families cloudified, the porter boxes should just become a charm in canonistack16:15
barryshort week due to usa thanksgiving16:15
barrymostly working on internal project16:15
cjwatsonslangasek: did that include having the porter boxes be closer in behaviour (if not in exact implementation) to the one I outlined in https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=68468 ?16:15
barryphone: testing udm fix for unconstrained path bug (yes it fixes it!)16:15
barryother: python bug 22966 (py_compile foo.bar.py); LP: #138485916:15
ubottubug 22966 in Ubuntu "Networking causes login delay" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2296616:15
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1384859 in Ubuntu system image "Use other machine-id files as alternatives to D-Bus file" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/138485916:15
barry-- done --16:15
mvodid: lots of work on a internal project16:16
mvonext: lots of work on a internal project16:16
slangasekcjwatson: given that we would own the charm and can determine its behavior, sure :)16:16
cjwatsonmakes sense16:17
stgraberis doko around?16:17
slangasekcjwatson: basically, at that point anyone can have root on their own instance, so the porter box sudo magic becomes obsolete16:17
slangasekdoko: ?16:17
doko- more GCC work, updating 4.8 and 4.9 branches, bug triage, uploads, testing 4.816:17
doko and 4.9 with isl-0.14, snapshot build16:17
doko- binutils update, binutils bug triage16:17
doko- python3.4 upload, ensurepip update, forwarded ubuntu issues16:17
doko- python2.7 prepared, working on open security issues upstream16:17
doko- really need to spend some time on merges16:17
doko- finally have my 100 MBit downstream, 12Mbit upstream cable working,16:17
slangasekhe is!16:17
doko  now need to configure it for ipV6.16:17
cjwatsonslangasek: right, that makes total sense given power/arm in canonistack16:18
stgraber - linuxcontainers.org:16:18
stgraber    - Got our new website online at: https://linuxcontainers.org16:18
stgraber    - Various CI infrastructure updates16:18
stgraber - lxd:16:18
stgraber    - Been working on a few of the specs at:16:18
stgraber      https://github.com/lxc/lxd/tree/master/specs16:18
stgraber    - Bunch of bugfixes and code reviews.16:18
stgraber - lxc:16:18
stgraber    - A lot of code reviews (large backlog).16:18
stgraber    - Tagged LXC 1.1.0~alpha3 and uploaded to the archive.16:18
stgraber    - Detailed our systemd support plan and worked on a few of the bits.16:18
stgraber    - Went through the stable branch backlog, planning on tagging 1.0.7 today16:18
stgraber      or tomorrow.16:18
stgraber - lxcfs:16:18
stgraber    - Started poking at go-dbus and go-fuse to use them for lxcfs.16:18
stgraber - other:16:18
stgraber    - Post-sprint admin tasks.16:18
stgraber    - Preparation for next week's sprint in Cape Town.16:18
stgraber 16:18
stgraberCurrent tasks:16:18
stgraber - LXC systemd containers support:16:18
stgraber   - Get lxcfs to a working stage16:18
stgraber   - Implement new lxc.autodev design16:18
stgraber   - Implement new init system detection code16:18
stgraber - Test stacking of read-only overlayfs on 3.1816:18
stgraber 16:19
stgraberI'll be out travelling tomorrow afternoon, Saturday and Sunday. Then sprinting16:19
stgraberall of next week and flying again on Sunday and next Monday. Back to work on16:19
stgraberthe 16th. If you need something from me, talk to me today!16:19
stgraber 16:19
slangasekok cool16:20
slangasekany questions?16:20
slangasek[TOPIC] AOB16:20
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
slangasekanything else?  Christmas caroling?16:21
slangasekcomplaints about the weather?16:21
slangaseklightning talks about new things you're working on? :)16:22
caribou"We wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas..;"16:22
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Dec  4 16:23:09 2014 UTC.16:23
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-16.03.moin.txt16:23
slangasekok, thanks everyone :)16:23
caribouthanks slangasek16:23
dholbachhello everybody17:01
dholbachhang in there... we're sorting out things right now for the CC meeting17:02
jonohi all17:03
dholbachall right, there was a bit of confusion if we were going to do it as IRC or hangout17:03
jonois the CC meeting happening now?17:03
pleia2jono: yep, welcome17:03
dholbachbut it looks like we have a couple of folks who can't do hangout today17:03
jonohi pleia217:03
dholbachso let's do IRC17:03
dholbachhey jono17:03
mhall119hey jono17:03
jonosorry I am a few mins late, was taking the boy to school17:04
jonohi dholbach!17:04
jonohi mhall119!17:04
dholbach#startmeeting CC Meeting17:04
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Dec  4 17:04:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.17:04
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick17:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic:
dholbach#chair mhall119 pleia2 YokoZar17:04
meetingologyCurrent chairs: YokoZar dholbach mhall119 pleia217:04
dholbach#chair czajkowski17:04
meetingologyCurrent chairs: YokoZar czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia217:04
dholbachlet's get started then :)17:04
dholbachOn the agenda we have one item17:05
dholbach#topic Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals17:05
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic: Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals
dholbachWho wants to start? :)17:05
YokoZarGood to see everyone17:05
jonowhat is the goal of this meeting?17:05
jonoI know I raised a set of ideas and questions, but is this meeting designed to move towards some policy changes/adjustments?17:06
jonohey YokoZar :-)17:06
pleia2I think we should put together an etherpad of ideas out there, and start putting together some action items17:06
mhall119jono: I think we're still in the process of clearly identifying the problems to be solved17:06
pleia2whether they be "don't do this" or "do this, our next step is..."17:06
jonohey sabdfl17:06
sabdflhello hello17:06
mhall119hi sabdfl17:07
jonopleia2, I think that sounds good, but to mhall119's point, it might be an idea for us to define the problems first17:07
jonoand whether we as a group feel there is a problem in the first place17:07
jonoor whether some English guy is rambling off the point :-)17:07
jonoin my mind there is nothing wrong with the current way in which Ubuntu is led and governed17:07
jonothe problem I feel is missed opportunity17:08
YokoZarThere was a general sense of inertia in our governance process, correct?17:08
jonoI believe there are hundreds of people out there ready to be inspired and motivated to feel a sense of ownership in Ubuntu17:08
jonoYokoZar, I feel that is part of the problem17:08
jonobut not at the fault of CC members17:08
jonojust because we have been doing broadly the same thing for years17:09
mhall119first off, I'd like to throw some data into the mix of gut feelings17:09
jonomhall119, cool17:09
mhall119LoCo team activities, measured by loco.u.c, spiked in the spring of 2011, and have been slowly declining since then17:09
mhall119Summit attendees, as measured by summit.u.c registrations, also spiked in the spring of 2011, and held steady until the last in-person UDS in fall 201217:10
mhall119Both Ubuntu Members and Ubuntu Developers have been slowly but steadily increasing in numbers since 2009 (that's as far back as I could get reliable data)17:10
jonomhall119, do you have data on how active those members and developers are?17:11
mhall119jono: no17:11
pleia2participation in governance itself has gone down since then, we struggle to even find enough candidates for our boards and councils, let alone enough to select a few out of a list17:11
jonomhall119, I figured that is tough to measure17:11
pleia2we've had to do re-calls for both LoCo and IRC Councils this fall17:11
jonoso it sounds like we agree there is a general decline17:11
mhall119jono: yeah, it might be possible digging through the archives and changelogs, but it would be a big task17:11
pleia2(or at least, re-calls for nominees are in the wors)17:12
sabdfllet's step back a little bit17:12
sabdflhere's a general proposition17:12
jonomhall119, dholbach wrote a script for me once that mapped our developer activity, might be useful17:12
jono(still giving dholbach graphing work to do :-) )17:12
sabdfl - something new that is timely and interesting will attract fresh participation17:12
sabdfl - over time any given initiative grows process, procedure and personality, so gets harder for new people to feel they can quickly get to a leadership role17:13
sabdfli think those two things are basically true17:13
sabdflso, this would lead me to think it's normal that a (static) proposition will age and sag a little bit17:13
sabdflthe basic proposition of "come collaborate around the ubuntu archive to deliver debian packages on a cadence" is essentially unchanged in 10 years17:14
sabdflgiven that, i'm not surprised to see that it's harder to attract fresh eyes to what is easily considered both a solved problem and one where there are already lots of rules / leads / decisions taken17:15
sabdflthere's nothing WRONG with collaborating around an archive17:15
sabdfland it does continue to be super useful for all sorts of people17:15
sabdflXubuntu, MATE, lots of others in addition to the core "ubuntu desktop" and "ubuntu in the cloud" crowds17:15
jonoI think at the heart of this is Stephen Covey's sphere of influence and circle of concern - it feels to me that the community feels their sphere of influence has shrunk to the point where they don't feel empowered to participate17:15
jonowhen in reality, the sphere of influence is still very wide17:15
sabdfli think it has more to do with a feeling of congestion17:16
jonoand I think we can focus on how much the community can lead17:16
sabdfl"welcome! just don't play on the grass!"17:16
sabdflthing is we've already figured out where we want the paths and where we want the lawns17:16
sabdfland fresh young types feel that's a mountain to climb efore they get to Do Cool Stuff17:16
mhall119there is a definitely feeling of unwelcomeness to contribute to some projects that Canonical leads17:16
sabdflmhall119, is there any suggestion that contribution is unwelcome?17:17
jonoI don't think participation is unwelcome, but it is impractical17:17
mhall119sabdfl: no, but a very strict set of what is acceptable and what isn't17:17
YokoZarAnd I think there's an interesting question here about whether or not the project governance is a reasonable place to expect this leadership.17:17
YokoZarQuite a few of us see our role as more getting out of the way and acting discretely (or at least quickly when we're gatekeepers)17:17
mhall119it means you can't just contribute $COOL_NEW_FEATURE if it's not already been approved17:17
jonomost Open Source contributors want to feel an opportunity to influence direction and strategy, and with some Canonical projects that is unlikely17:17
jonowhich, I think is the right decision for Ubuntu17:18
sabdflYokoZar, agreed, there's a difference between governance and leadership, and a healthy project needs the right kind and balance of both17:18
mhall119sabdfl: Unity is the primary example in the past, but anything heavily design-driven seems less likely to gain community contributors17:18
sabdflit's unfortunate if people think the set of canonical projects == set of ubuntu projects17:18
sabdflbecause that would narrow the arena a lot17:18
mhall119now, we found a way to improve that with Core Apps, which are both very design-drive and fully developed by community17:18
jonosabdfl, maybe some clarity in which are which could help17:19
sabdflmhall119, i think that's an example of a place where the territory was fresh, there might be a strong design lead but there weren't lots of people saying "we've been doing it this way for 10 years"17:19
sabdflin other words, i think it's a good test of the idea that canonical's lead is not a blocker to participation17:19
OerHeksHi, just joined ahead of membership board meeting for 22:00 UTC, and see an interesting discussion going on17:19
sabdflit's more about creating fresh space where ideas can bubble up fast without having to go through a lot of "but we've already thought about that"17:19
mhall119sabdfl: yes, I think we have a lot of fresh territority that we can take better advantage of inthe same way17:20
sabdflsome of that territory is stuff that i think canonical will want to lead17:20
YokoZarsabdfl: Regarding "contribution is unwelcome" -- there is the contributor's agreement, which has absolutely been a barrier (and blocker) for some.  Albeit only Canonical projects.17:20
sabdflbut there is a LOT of stuff happening in open source that it's better to have others lead17:20
sabdflYokoZar, so saith the competition ;)17:20
jonoit feels to me that "I can't contribute because Canonical is in charge" is too often an excuse17:21
jonoand I feel that is the malaise we need to break17:21
sabdflit's a nice excuse! blame the corporation17:21
dholbachI can see how some projects are harder and less attractive to get involved - if we just look at the phone right now - although the code is open, it's changing quite fast in a lot of places, with engineering teams and teams at the customers working very tightly together - some of the discussions happen in meetings somewhere, where it's harder to stay on top of what's happening17:21
jonosabdfl, exactly17:21
jonoand, this may seem harsh, I feel it is an epidemic in our community17:21
sabdfldholbach, it's still by far the easiest way to actually participate in a real phone project17:21
YokoZarMore broadly though I would raise the question of whether distributions themselves are as interesting as they used to be.  We might just be part of a general trend of development moving towards other things17:21
jonoyes, Canonical does have leadership on some projects, but it is a small proportion of the wider Ubuntu commons17:21
sabdfljono, yes, i think it "became acceptable" and then "became normal" to blame canonical17:22
dholbachsabdfl, absolutely - and I wasn't blaming anyone17:22
mhall119there is some legitimacy though, if we only accept contributions if they're on the approved roadmap, and the community doesn't know what that roadmap is and wasn't involve in creating it, they don't know what they *can* contribute17:22
sabdflmhall119 's essay on the competitive sledging approach for poisoning projects is spot on17:22
jonothe difficult piece here is that I think we need our governance to help change this culture17:22
jonoCanonical members can't do this or it is seen as bias17:22
sabdflwell, that's again the issue with governance and leadership17:22
sabdflto me, governance is about maintaining fairness17:23
jonoahhh good point, I guess I am conflating governance and leadership17:23
jonobut I think I am doing that because I feel our governance should have that leadership position17:23
sabdflso, let's talk about leadership17:23
czajkowskiand while similar not everyone neds to be in governance but anyone can get more involved  and lead :)17:23
popeyOne thing Core Apps has done is make it more personal. It's not "Canonical" that impose restrictions on what you can do with Content-hub, it's "Ken", it's "Jamie" that you go for security.17:23
sabdfltwo scenarios17:23
mhall119jono: governments rarely lead17:24
popeyI realise this doesn't fully scale, but it makes a difference when you have people talking to people, and it isn't just seen as contributors blocked by The Man.17:24
sabdfl 1. bright young person with brilliant idea steps up to convince folks to try something new17:24
sabdfl 2. toxic person with agenda steps up to convince folks to take a particular approach17:24
sabdflboth are, in effect, leadership17:24
sabdfland the interesting problem i think we have to consider is:17:24
sabdfl * how do we welcome leadership of what is a very valuable community17:24
sabdfl * while at the same time being willing to call BS on the toxic type, which WILL show up because it's a lot more fun to steer a lot of people to your agenda than start from scratch17:25
jonoI think the first step is clearly defining the parameters of where people can lead and influence17:25
sabdfli think it's a very interesting question indeed, and thanks jono for making us think about it17:25
jonoI think the malaise from the trolls has created an atmosphere of a restrictive environment, which is not true17:26
jonowhich is why I suggested an impact constitution17:26
jonothanks sabdfl, I care about our future17:26
jonoI think maybe the CC could help paint a clear picture of the many ways in which participation can happen17:27
mhall119for the first one, I think we need a way to award (socially) the current leaders, and more importantly find replacements for them. Too often once we find a leader we run keep them in place until they burnout17:27
jonomhall119, well, and some leaders are not really "leaders"17:27
jonothey are just "most interested in becoming leaders"17:27
highvoltagethat's a very important nail you're hitting right on the head there mhall11917:27
jonobut this is an age old problem all communities have17:27
sabdflsuccession is also interesting17:28
sabdflbut let's focus on how we can ensure that ubuntu is a place where people can *start* things17:28
mhall119so, since highvoltage is here I'll take him as an example, he and stgraber have been the only reason Edubuntu is still a think since *I* started getting involved in Ubuntu, there's nobody to take over for them if they have to step down17:28
jonodo we feel that painting a picture of the many places people can participate is a good step17:29
pleia2jono: +117:29
sabdflmy view is things have their time, if there's no drive to continue them, it's best to accept that their time has passed17:29
jonohighvoltage, no to what?17:29
pleia2jono: a few weeks ago I believed we did this (with community.ubuntu.com), but discussions since on the mailing list made me realize that apparently it's not good enough17:30
jonopleia2, I wonder whether that is because we need to condense the information into a short list17:30
highvoltagejono: it doesn't necessarilly imply that their time has passed. some projects within ubuntu just get very little exposure to newcommers. if you visit a canonical page on community and how to get involved, it's *full* of whatever's important to canonical right now (typically phone / cloud stuff)17:31
jonothis is why I thought of the impact constitution, essentially 10 or 20 places where people can contribute - this could be easily shared on social media, in posters, and elsewhere17:31
highvoltagejono: things outside of that scope tend to look boring by comparison, but it doesn't mean that they're not important.17:31
jonoas opposed to the larger website - c.u.c could just present more detail17:31
pleia2jono: unfortunately I see it both ways, people wanting a "short list" and people saying there's not enough information, I don't know which way to go, or what will help (which is why it was nice to see some newcomers on the thread who could perhaps guide us to what would be useful)17:31
jonohighvoltage, I disagree17:32
sabdflhighvoltage, it's a good idea to list more things there17:32
jonohighvoltage, I think Canonical are just better at encouraging participation17:32
sabdflbeing on a list of things does not make one interesting17:32
sabdflsay you are inspired by telephone17:32
jonohighvoltage, some things do just become stale and less interesting to people17:32
sabdflbeing active in places (forums, lists, discourse, etc) focused on THAT is a good way to attract people17:32
jonoand some things reduce in participation because there is no inspiration17:33
highvoltagejono: indeed, ideally who care about the cause should ideally have more time to lobby (or do whatever) to get it listed there and get more exposure.17:33
dholbachpleia2, yes, I think that's one of the things could try to improve - make it livelier, more inviting, better explain how you can have a chat with team members before starting a duplicated effort, but not to wait for somebody's approval to start doing something new, etc - making it more inviting, maybe have a couple of videos there would also help to convey how we work together (set the tone so to speak)17:33
jonohighvoltage, well, I think inspiration is the key - the greatest communities have people who help to translate the micro contribution to the macro impact17:33
sabdflhighvoltage, i'd say the best way to get people into edubuntu is to be active in places where people who care about education hang out17:33
jonoboy, that sounded buzzword17:33
jonosorry about that :-)17:33
sabdflbut true , jono :)17:33
highvoltagejono: no problem, I agree with both you and sabdfl on that17:34
pleia2dholbach: yeah17:34
mhall119so if somebody new comes along and says "How can I contribute?", those of us already contributing should be able to give an answer17:34
jonoso it sounds like we are identifying (1) clarity of places to contribute and (2) visibility of these places as key goals17:34
sabdfli think jono was driving at a deeper point, which is that free software continues to be a focus of innovation, but ubuntu hasn't been at the centre of those efforts17:34
mhall119I like the idea of listing areas where people can contribute, but that should be a resource for us, not necessarily for new people17:35
sabdflthere are some interesting examples, jono, that perhaps shed light on this17:35
sabdflone is docker17:35
mhall119"go read this list" isn't a way to contribute, it's the community version of RTFM17:35
sabdflit's not an ubuntu project, but boy, is ubuntu the standard over there!17:35
sabdflfor now at least :)17:35
sabdflit's an interesting question whether perhaps we failed to make room for someone to lead various parts of that IN ubuntu17:35
YokoZarDocker is an interesting example actually17:36
sabdflbut i think part of their story is in fact being cross-platform, and being IN ubuntu might have made that harder not easier17:36
YokoZarBecause maybe contributing docker containers is more interesting to people who 5 years ago might have been contributing to Ubuntu directly17:36
sabdflthough it's a little like contributing AMIs.... thanks for the giant unauditable blob!17:36
jonowell, there is innovation for Ubuntu and innovation that is on Ubuntu17:36
sabdflpackaging is hard, but the hard work means:17:36
sabdfl * people know it's built from source17:36
sabdfl * it's easy to integrate with the rest of the system17:37
sabdflmaking a docker image is easy, and does neither of the above17:37
sabdflbut being easy, it's taken off like crazy17:37
mhall119sabdfl: perhaps Ubuntu itself is being shifted from being the ends to being the means to an end17:37
sabdfland ubuntu is at the middle of that though not lead from ubuntu17:37
sabdflhere's an even more interesting example17:37
sabdflanybody heard of ROS?17:37
mhall119which one is that?17:38
dholbachalthough the flow of the meeting feels a bit disrupted, I really like how everyone is bringing in ideas and problems related to the fields they're involved in - this is really great to see. maybe we could (after the meeting) try to use an etherpad to note down what we feel are common issues, or things we'd like to fix - no matter if it's a general fix or something in your area of involvement?17:38
YokoZarRobot operating system17:38
YokoZarBased on Ubuntu17:38
jonothe robot thing?17:38
jonoI love that17:38
sabdflOpen Source Robotics Foundation17:38
mhall119is that why all the robotics videos show Ubuntu on screen?17:38
sabdflpretty much, i think, mhall11917:38
sabdflso, it's really interesting17:38
sabdflnon-profit group that's basically making it easy for robotics researchers and developers to share stuff17:38
sabdflit's moving too fast for traditional packaging17:38
sabdflit's like github-for-robot-people17:39
sabdflit's all based on ubuntu17:39
jonothis is precisely where I feel Ubuntu has the opportunity - becoming the go-to platform for people to build interesting technology17:39
sabdflit's like "install ubuntu then type this command to bring in the shared source before you work on your app"17:39
mhall119jono: which gets back to Ubuntu being the means, not the end. People don't contribute to a hammer, but they can contribute with one17:39
sabdflthe reason i think this example is interesting is because i think it's a counter to the "sky is falling in" view17:39
jonomhall119, well, yes and no17:40
sabdflit's just that these projects are not at ubuntu.com/foo17:40
YokoZarmhall119: a good problem to have in some sense.  There was a time when we couldn't hammer ;)17:40
jonomhall119, a community could help Ubuntu to be the best platform for robotics17:40
sabdflhow many developers have contributed click packages? 200?17:40
mhall119YokoZar: I agree, I don't think it's a bad thing, it just means we need to change our focus17:40
jonoto create a sub-community that maintains packages, create docs, organizing online events and more17:40
mhall119sabdfl: a little over, yes17:40
sabdflhow many linux distributions have 200 active contributors?17:41
mhall119interestingly we have almost as many click package developers as we have Ubuntu Developers17:41
sabdflfresh territory, fresh space17:41
jonomhall119, that is near17:41
jonoso the technology is pretty much there17:41
sabdflalso, fewer rules, fewer metadatas, fewer interlocks17:41
jonowe just need to reboot the fact that Ubuntu really is a commons17:42
sabdflin tech, almost everything else has gotten easier17:42
jonoand not the Canonical prison some people make it out to be17:42
sabdflit's easier to get a server today than 2004 (thanks cloud!)17:42
sabdflit's easier to sell an app than in 2004 (thanks app store!)17:42
sabdflit's easier to publish server side software (thanks paas!)17:43
sabdflit's still damn hard to create a good debian package17:43
YokoZarthere's a reason so much engineering has been about avoiding packaging systems17:43
sabdfland while we measure participation much more broadly17:43
highvoltagebut it's drastically easier! (thanks dh 7?) (sorry couldn't resist)17:43
YokoZar(even our own -- click packages are only barely debs)17:43
elfyevening all - got in late - just caught up17:43
elfyhave a comment to make :)17:43
mhall119welcome elfy17:44
sabdflthe engine of that participation (advocacy, loco, docs, translation, etc etc) is always "here's a useful thing" made up of packages17:44
sabdfldive in elfy17:44
jonohi elfy17:44
elfyI've just read 45 minutes of people talking about how to contribute by coding - apart from one sentence from sabdfl17:44
jonoelfy, I don't think we all meant coding17:44
elfynow I know that the majority of you do that - so that's going to be where you'll be looking17:44
elfyjono: that's how it reads :)17:45
jonoI certainly didn't mean coding :-)17:45
* mhall119 has some anecdotes to bring up about designers17:45
jonoI meant BBQ17:45
elfydon't I've not eaten since yesterday ;)17:45
elfymhall119: even design - similar to coding17:45
mhall119not if you ask a designer (or coder) ;)17:46
elfyso - from where I'm sitting - this discussion on how to contribute would already have turned me off17:46
elfywhile we ALL know that the support side is there for whoever - and wherever people can do so17:46
jonoelfy, I think we would all agree that participation is multi-disciplined17:46
elfyand THAT is a low bar to *acceptable* contributions to *buntu - it gets forgotten every time :)17:47
jonobut the conclusions we are coming to here are (1) we have the technology (2) Ubuntu is just the end but the means too (3) we are seeing a general decline and (4) we should focus our efforts on helping people to see the wider Ubuntu commons and how they can participate17:47
elfyso I'm mostly talking about getting into (4) then17:48
jonoI really do feel a key thing here is getting rid of the toxicity of "Canonical runs the show"17:48
jonoelfy, same here :-)17:48
mhall119jono: I don't agree with (3), I don't think we have enough data to say there has been a "general" decline17:48
elfyjono: agree with that :)17:48
jonomhall119, observational data suggests we have lower participation17:49
elfymhall119: I see a general decline in the main areas I contribute17:49
highvoltagejono: maybe I'm wrong for feeling that toxicity but often, and repeatedly, that has been my honest experience in ubuntu17:49
jonohighvoltage, well, I think we should be frank in where Canonical control does and doesn't exist17:49
jonoin my view, Canonical is leading the way in Mir, Unity, Juju as three key projects17:49
jonobut the archive is open17:50
jonothe app store is open17:50
jonoand *anyone* can help build new technology and do cool things17:50
jonoso while I agree that if you want to hack on Unity 8 you are going to really need to fit within an already defined roadmap, that is a tiny % of the overall Ubuntu commons17:50
RiddellCanonical claims to control distribution of binary packages which is incorrect and very poisonous17:50
jonoRiddell, not true17:51
highvoltagejono: I literally cried when there was an Ubuntu One session in 2009 and the session started by "We're going to get Ubuntu One into the installer and it's already been decided internally and there will be no further discussion on this." - so if that type of thing continues you have to acknowledge that Canonical calls the shots on some things and be open to that. I think it's unfair to call peop17:51
Riddellyes it is17:51
highvoltagele toxic who calls that out.17:51
pleia2elfy: fwiw, I'm also interested in building up interest in our existing "non-exciting" and non-coding communities within ubuntu17:51
jonoRiddell, no, that discussion was about fairness17:51
mhall119Riddell: it's a complicated topic that isn't the focus of discussion right now, can it wait until after we get through this?17:51
jonofairness of how infrastructure and resources are utilized17:51
sabdflhighvoltage, yes, we do call the shots on some things, and occasionally we get it wrong17:51
elfypleia2: ;)17:51
pleia2even with cool robot projects, we need people to do manual QA on a variety of hardware... actually, this is PARTICULARLY needed with cool robot projects!17:52
sabdflthis discussion is about how we make space for more leadership in new areas, not how we punish leadership17:52
jonohighvoltage, right, but that was a *long* time ago at the beginning of figuring out the company/community relationship17:52
jonolet it go, dude :-)17:52
Riddellmhall119: it's hightly relevant if you're talking about why people might get off contributing to ubuntu17:52
sabdflif you want more leadership, you have to accept that people will make decisions and occasionally they will get them wrong17:52
jonothe Ubuntu history is not perfect17:52
YokoZarhighvoltage: Yeah, we've been atoning for that sin ever since as a project.  It's bad community and bad software development process.  And I believe we're unlikely to repeat it.17:53
jonobut we are human beings17:53
dholbachpleia2, elfy: agreed :)17:53
mhall119Riddell: we aren't talking currently about why people are getting off of contributing17:53
jonoand we need to stop harking on the past and focus on the future17:53
highvoltageoh there are plenty of more recent examples of that. I chose that because it was the first time it stung so hard17:53
sabdflhighvoltage, whoa, stop, i don't think your conclusions from that exercise are correct at all17:53
sabdflit looks increasingly likely that the future of EVERY major platform involves an on and offline identity17:53
sabdflevery major platform17:53
sabdflpeople want to contribute to things that will be successful17:54
mhall119so, using the Robot OS as an example, why can't they make that contribution within the Ubuntu project? (not necessarily within the archive, just within the community project)17:54
sabdfland you're upset that someone one once suggested that ubuntu should be in the lead, rather than meekly waiting for every other platform to validate an idea?17:54
jonoI agree with sabdfl17:55
sabdflleadership is hard precisely because it involves going into territory that undefined or awkward17:55
jonoand in any case it was *five years ago*17:55
sabdflwe cannot sit here and want to attract leaders while at the same time harping on cases where leadership itself was unpopular17:55
sabdflin that case, the goal was not even wrong17:55
jonowe have all learning and grown in give years17:55
highvoltagetelling the comm17:55
sabdflif you want ubuntu to be limited to things you like, you're not going to be happy17:56
sabdflsame goes for me, frankly17:56
highvoltageThe mistake there didn't have anything to do with Ubuntu One itself, imho the mistake was to say that a controversial decision in Ubuntu has been made internally, at Canonical, and that no firther discussion on it will be allowed.17:56
mhall119it's fair to ask that everbody be allowed to participate in the discussion that leads to those choices though17:56
jonohighvoltage, that just isn't true17:57
sabdflmhall119, well, i suspect part of the ROS question is that they wanted to set up an institution, and instititions needs to lead things17:57
jonothere *was* discussion, there was discourse17:57
jonobut ultimately Canonical did make a decision17:57
sabdfli'm not upset that it's not under the auspices of the CC17:57
jonoand that is going to happen from time to time17:57
jonothis is how the relationship between companies and communities sometimes work17:57
mhall119sabdfl: that doesn't necessarily exclude them from working within the project17:57
cp1And speaking of hard, I think Ubuntu needs to do more about contributing to Debian.  Debian has some problems now and if Ubuntu had more leadership in the area of contributing back to Debian it could be win win for both!17:57
jonobut you are talking about a tiny fragment of Ubuntu17:57
highvoltagejono: hey, I was there, and that was exactly what was said in the beginning of a UDS session, but hey, I don't want to harp on that specific issue either, it was just an example of how you can't say that it's toxic of people to say that canonical sometimes calls the shots17:58
sabdflhighvoltage, if the people who are going to do the work have made a decision, that's binding, even if none of them work for canonical17:58
dholbachI'm not sure we're going to get a lot more out of this meeting at this point. Can we set up an Etherpad in which we feed concrete ideas, plans and work items?17:58
sabdflhighvoltage, this would be the very definition of harping17:58
highvoltagejono: because the fact is that canonical does often call the shots within ubuntu, and as you said earlier, it's good to have that defined17:58
jonohighvoltage, this is an example of the problem17:58
sabdflleadership is precisely about making decisions17:58
* YokoZar has to go now -- thanks very much to everyone who showed up, and would like to discuss it further.17:58
pleia2dholbach: yeah17:58
jonowe are trying to find new ways to inspire and motivate our community and you are derailing it with a conversation five years ago when we were all younger and stupider than we are now17:59
sabdflthe reason people create splits and forks and sub-projects is *so they can make decisions*17:59
jonowe all made mistakes back then17:59
jonothe intentions were good, but the execution was not perfect17:59
mhall119dholbach: http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion17:59
sabdfland if they can't do that inside a project (because it will be unpopular and their day will be full of shit) then they go do it somewhere else17:59
jonobut lets focus on the future instead of getting dragged back by the past17:59
pleia2thanks mhall11917:59
dholbachthanks a lot mhall11917:59
sabdflwell, jono, i agree that occasionally a decision being taken is perceived as abrasive18:00
jonolets crisply define where Canonical does lead, and then promote the vast array of places where the community can lead18:00
dholbachI would suggest we all do a bit of homework and add our thoughts and things we'd be interested and willing to work on into http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion18:00
sabdflbut if you tolerate intolerance of decisions, you end up a mess18:00
sabdfli don't think we should accept a browbeating over decisiveness, for ANY leader in Ubuntu, canonical or otherwise18:00
sabdflor we'll not solve the core question at hand, which is how we encourage folks to do there leading HERE18:01
sabdfltheir, even18:01
jonofocus on previous discussions is good if we fail forward18:01
jonobut the blame game doesn't help anyone18:01
jonoI personally thought the focus on KDE4 wasn't wise, but I am not going to berate KDE leadership for it :-)18:01
sabdflif it's OK to piss on my leadership, or yours, or canonical's, then frankly nobody is going to want to be a leader in the project for something new18:01
jonoinstead it is better for us to work together to pull away conclusions for how we can do better18:02
elfysabdfl: absolutely18:02
Riddelljono: what focus on KDE4?18:03
jonoRiddell, we can discuss this later, it is off topic18:03
dholbachI'll drop an email to ubuntu-community-team@ with the logs to the meeting and the etherpad.18:03
elfydholbach: thanks18:04
dholbachIt'd be good if we could revisit the notes afterwards again and see who wants to team up on tackling some of the things mentioned.18:04
mhall119thanks dholbach18:04
pleia2thanks dholbach18:05
jonothanks everyone, I better run18:06
dholbachAll right... is there any other business anyone wanted to bring up?18:06
dholbach#topic Any other business?18:06
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
highvoltagewasn't the EC catchup scheduled for tonight?18:06
Riddelldholbach: an update on the status of the claims over binary files would be appreciated18:07
mhall119everybody please feel free to contibute to the Etherpad or further discussion on the mailing list18:07
mhall119Riddell: we are still inquiring after that18:07
* balloons just walks in18:07
dholbachballoons, too late :)18:08
balloonsdholbach, I noticed.. what a discussion!18:08
elfyhighvoltage: it was - I mailed both Edubuntu and Lubuntu postponing on the 20th November18:08
balloonsI'll take to the pad18:08
highvoltageelfy: ah sorry, I missed that. all good then.18:08
dholbachthanks a lot everyone18:08
dholbachmail sent: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2014-December/000213.html18:08
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Dec  4 18:09:02 2014 UTC.18:09
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-17.04.moin.txt18:09
elfyhighvoltage: moved to the April some time18:09
mhall119thanks everybody for all of the thoughts and feedback18:09
mhall119please help us boil this down into things we can implement18:09
elfythanks everyone18:09
highvoltageyes thanks, I hope that jono and sabdfl can see that my comments are meant to be constructive, I don't mean to attack or anything like that.18:10
mhall119jono: can you flesh out what an Impact Constitution would define on the Etherpad (line 21 currently)18:10
* mhall119 enjoys being able to ask jono to flesh things out for a change18:11
popeyhighvoltage: might have been more constructive if you'd had an example from this decade ㋛18:11
jonomhall119, LOL18:11
jonowill do18:11
jonothanks, all18:11
jonohighvoltage, :-)18:11
sabdflcheerio all18:12
highvoltagepopey: noted, I'll stick to this decade for future references18:15
* popey hugs highvoltage 18:15
Riddellhighvoltage, popey: where was this?18:16
highvoltagepopey: it was from like, 5 years after I joined Ubuntu, on my timeline it doesn't feel like ancient history, but I acknowledge that it wasn't quite recent and won't bring it up again18:16
popeyRiddell: I was making light of a heavyweight discussion earlier.18:16
popeyhighvoltage: I'm not trying to shut you up, it was just a joke :)(18:16
highvoltagepopey: ah ok :)18:17
jonotypical Canonical staff shutting us community members down18:17
popey /kick jono18:18
highvoltageIn all honesty, I think you guys are doing a great job, but some of the problems, like the innovational problems mentioned tonight, happen exactly because of some problems that seem to be in your blind spot (or refuse to acknlowledge), but I'd rather send an email in private about that than disucss it on IRC, where every single line is just way far too open to be interpreted the wrong way18:21
pleia2thanks highvoltage18:23
benonsoftware /e20:21
benonsoftwareOops, sorry20:21
belkinsaOerHeks, are you ready for the meeting in 30 minutes for your Membership?21:30
OerHeksHi belkinsa yes i am.21:30
belkinsaPerfect.  I hope we have enough Board Members for this one.21:31
CugelHello, people.21:35
belkinsao/ Cugel.21:35
FermataPeople of Ubuntu o/21:35
OerHeksHi Cugel & Fermata21:35
hggdh!rmb -- meeting in 13 minutes21:45
ubottuhggdh: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)21:45
hggdhbloody hell21:46
ubotturmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.21:47
belkinsaGuys, meeting is in 13 minutes!21:47
belkinsaWTF, no CC factiod?21:48
hggdhhah, so much for consistency ;-)21:48
pleia2belkinsa: tsk, language21:49
pleia2what do you need?21:49
belkinsaSorry.  We may need you guys for the 22 UTC Memberboard meeting21:49
hggdhpleia2: it seems we will need backing up for the RMB meeting in a few21:49
belkinsaMembership Board*21:49
pleia2ah sure, I'm around21:49
belkinsaWe need two more, right?21:49
hggdhone more21:49
belkinsaOh, duh.21:50
belkinsaI will chair.21:50
hggdhfour is the minimum quorum21:50
hggdh(and thank you ;-)21:50
pleia2if no one shows up in 10 minutes, I'll msg some other CC members21:50
belkinsaOkay, thank you, pleia2.21:50
belkinsaOerHeks is here but  OscarPrieto is not.21:50
ubotturmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.21:54
belkinsaMeeting in 5 minutes.21:54
belkinsaWell, that factiod needs to be updated.21:54
* popey waves21:55
belkinsaThanks, popey for coming.21:55
czajkowskiI'm here if you need numbers21:55
belkinsaOkay, we have five now.  Three Membership Board members and two CC ones.21:55
belkinsaoscarprieto, are you ready for the Membershio Board meeting?21:57
OerHeksHi glad you made it oscarprieto21:57
belkinsaAnd if there is anyone for these two (as in for cheering on), you are welcome to the meeting.21:57
belkinsaPerfect, we will start in 2 minutes.21:57
oscarprietoI change mi nick21:58
belkinsaOkay, starting now...21:59
belkinsa#startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting21:59
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Dec  4 21:59:41 2014 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.21:59
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick21:59
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
belkinsa#voters belkinsa pleia2 czajkowski popey hggdh22:00
meetingologyCurrent voters: belkinsa czajkowski hggdh pleia2 popey22:00
belkinsa#votesrequired 422:00
meetingologyvotes now need 4 to be passed22:00
* czajkowski waves hi and welcome :) 22:00
popeyyo yo22:00
belkinsaHello and welcome to the 22 UTC Membership Board meeting on this fine Thursday.22:00
belkinsaThe wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards22:01
ofprietobelkinsa:  this is my nick official22:01
belkinsaWe will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.22:01
belkinsaThe format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).22:01
belkinsaEach applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.22:01
belkinsa During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.22:01
belkinsaWhen the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)22:01
belkinsa#subtopic OerHeks22:02
belkinsaAre you ready, OerHeks?22:02
OerHeksYes belkinsa22:02
belkinsaPlease introduce yourself to the board.22:02
OerHeksGoodevening all, My name is OerHeks, 47 years old, from The Netherlands and an ubuntu user for 5 years now.22:03
OerHeksI am a fulll opensource user, and i would like to share my experience and knowledge with anyone who needs it.22:04
popeyhi OerHeks22:05
OerHeksTherefore i am daily reading, learning and helping othere users mostly on IRC channels with questions and problems.22:05
=== PabloRubianes_ is now known as PabloRubianes
belkinsaOerHeks, may we have your Launchpad and wiki page link?22:06
belkinsa#voters PabloRubianes22:06
meetingologyCurrent voters: PabloRubianes belkinsa czajkowski hggdh pleia2 popey22:06
* Ingforigua greetings22:06
popeyOerHeks: what a lovely set of endorsements you have on your wiki page.22:06
OerHeksI am a member of the Mwanzo team too, the team that is made to help learning and get around in the ubuntu community. my launchpad url is https://launchpad.net/~oerheks22:06
pleia2belkinsa: you have RMB quorum, I'll step out :)22:06
belkinsapleia2, alright22:07
OerHeksAnd here is my personal wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/oerheks22:07
* trijntje_ is here to support OerHeks 22:07
FermataStefan de Vries hier, waving for OerHeks \o/ \o/22:07
popeywhat does Mwanzo mean?22:07
popeythanks trijntje_22:07
popeyFermata: thanks also!22:07
belkinsaDoes the supporters have anything to say about him?22:07
OerHeksMwanzo is Swahili for Begin.22:07
popeyOh nice.22:08
popeyWhat does the team do exactly? Got examples?22:08
OerHeksWe have a Dutch written page, maybe your browser has a translation feature > http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/mwanzo/22:08
czajkowskiOerHeks: lovely comments on your wiki page22:08
czajkowskinice work22:08
FermataHe is the most visible person in #ubuntu-nl channels.  Helping and making people's experience better.  A true gem.22:09
czajkowskithat's a loverly thing to hear about your team mates22:09
trijntje_like I wrote in my testimonial on the wiki (redmar), he's always around on irc to help, and is very knowledgeable about hardware22:09
popeyYeah, I have no other questions.22:09
geniiI also would like to put in a good work for OerHeks22:09
czajkowskiOerHeks: sounds like you're really a great champion for your community22:10
OerHeksWe are providing workshops, not that much at the moment, have an own askubuntu , http://vraag.ubuntu-nl.org/ and help peaple howto contribute to ubuntu/ubuntu-nl22:10
czajkowskiit's lovely to read about these things thank you22:10
czajkowskifor your work in the comunity and for being involved22:10
belkinsaDoes anyone have anymore questions?   Or are we ready to vote?22:10
hggdhI am ready22:10
czajkowskinone here22:10
belkinsa#vote OerHeks's Membership22:11
meetingologyPlease vote on: OerHeks's Membership22:11
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)22:11
meetingology+1 received from popey22:11
meetingology+1 received from hggdh22:11
belkinsa+1 Awesome work, keep it up!22:11
meetingology+1 Awesome work, keep it up! received from belkinsa22:11
czajkowski+1 well done thank you!22:11
meetingology+1 well done thank you! received from czajkowski22:11
belkinsaShould we wait for PabloRubianes?22:11
meetingology+1 received from PabloRubianes22:11
popeyCongratulations OerHeks !22:12
hggdhthere you go :-)22:12
OerHeksThank you !22:12
meetingologyVoting ended on: OerHeks's Membership22:12
meetingologyVotes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:022:12
meetingologyMotion carried22:12
PabloRubianescongrats OerHeks22:12
popeyThanks for coming Fermata trijntje_ !22:12
Ingforiguanice OerHeks :)22:12
belkinsa\o/, OerHeks!22:12
SergioMenesescongrats OerHeks22:12
* trijntje_ cheers22:12
FermataCongratulations, Oerheks!22:13
ofprietocongrats OerHeks!22:13
hggdhOerHeks: congrats, and thank you for your work22:13
belkinsa#subtopic ofprieto22:13
FermataAnd good luck, ofprieto.22:13
belkinsaofprieto, are you ready?22:13
ofprietoyes, I am22:13
SergioMenesesgo for it ofprieto22:13
ofprietolet me introduce myself22:13
ofprietoGood afternoon, I am Oscar Prieto, I am from Bogotá, Colombia. I am student of Systems engineering, but I am also a technician in supports systems. I am part of Ubuntu community for more than 4 years. I help with events, diffusion, support, and some translations. Right now I am member of the Ubuntu Colombia LoCo council. Here is my Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ofp.prieto And here is my Launchpad: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ofp22:13
ofprietoI have been working a lot in Ubuntu, you can see more information in my Wiki page.22:14
popeyhi ofprieto22:14
popeyYou have nice teeth!22:14
ofprietopopey: and a big mouth jeje22:15
belkinsaDoes anyone have questions for him or any comments?22:15
popeyjust reading...22:15
popeyofprieto: what do you do on SFD?22:16
popey(assume I have ignored your wiki page about it)22:16
belkinsaAnd what is your role in NetWorkBogota?22:16
ofprietoI had supported Ubuntu Stand, and help Ubuntu installations in that event22:17
popeyDid you get much interest from the public?22:17
SergioMenesesbelkinsa: ofprieto is the stand guy! :D22:17
ofprietobelkinsa:  Actually I have a node, and I am participating in the developer team of this idea, I supprot also the social media of this project.22:18
Ingforiguaand one conference called ... i dont remember :P ofprieto22:18
belkinsaofprieto, I see.22:18
Ingforiguanetwork bogota is a free network as guifinet22:18
ofprietobelkinsa: NetWorkBogota is a project that had begun in Agust this year!22:18
belkinsaI se.e22:19
mhall119ofprieto: I see you're on the ubuntu-co council, what does that entail and how have you found the experience?22:19
popeySergioMeneses: you here to support ofprieto ?22:19
hggdhSergioMeneses: cheers, BTW22:19
SergioMeneses@popey yes sir! :)22:20
meetingologySergioMeneses: Error: "popey" is not a valid command.22:20
SergioMeneseshi hggdh22:20
hggdhoh boy, "popey" is not a valid command...22:20
ofprietoThe Ubuntu-co council has been an excellent experiencie, we are working in our meeting for close the year, and I am leadering this activity22:20
popeyhggdh: file a bug ☻22:21
SergioMenesesofprieto: is an amazing guy, he works a lot with our community and I hope he work on the international community very soon with some project22:21
hggdhofprieto: perfect, and thank you for your community work22:21
popeyThank you SergioMeneses22:21
popeyI have no more questions22:21
SergioMenesesyou're welcome guys!22:21
ofprietomhall119: talking about social media, I am supporting this team of our community22:21
mhall119SergioMeneses: we had to remove the @popey command, it would randomly shut down mailinglists22:21
SergioMenesesmhall119: o022:22
belkinsa#vote ofprieto's Membership22:22
meetingologyPlease vote on: ofprieto's Membership22:22
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)22:22
PabloRubianes+1 buen trabajo!22:22
belkinsa+1 Keep up the great work!22:22
meetingology+1 Keep up the great work! received from belkinsa22:22
meetingology+1 buen trabajo! received from PabloRubianes22:22
meetingology+1 received from hggdh22:22
meetingology+1 received from popey22:22
meetingologyVoting ended on: ofprieto's Membership22:23
meetingologyVotes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:022:23
meetingologyMotion carried22:23
popeyCongratulations ofprieto !22:23
Ingforiguaofprieto: congrats some beers and b... :P22:23
mhall119congrats ofprieto22:23
hggdhofprieto: bienvenido a la comunitat Ubuntu (and sorry for having butchered your language)22:23
popeyI look forward to hearing about SFW 2015 in Colombia!22:23
SergioMenesescongrats ofprieto !22:23
SergioMenesespopey indeed!22:23
belkinsaThank you all for coming to this meeting.22:23
trijntje_Congratulations ofprieto22:23
PabloRubianesfelicitaciones ofprieto22:24
* belkinsa passes out beer and cookies22:24
FermataCongratulations, ofprieto!22:24
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Dec  4 22:24:20 2014 UTC.22:24
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-21.59.moin.txt22:24
Ingforiguapopey: you should come to colombia, you are welcome here :P a lot of beer and bi...22:24
OerHeksThank you all, congrats ofprieto , we are on the list > https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers22:24
trijntje_Cheers, have a nice evening everybody22:25
ofprieto I am very happy, thank you so much.22:25
CugelThanks all for getting these new members in.22:25
IngforiguaOerHeks: ofprieto beer for both :P22:25
CugelDrinks for all.22:25
popeyIngforigua: I would _love_ to go to Colombia!22:25
OerHeksCheers, bottoms up!22:25
SergioMenesessee you later guys! glad to see you, as always! :D22:25
ofprietowe are working for 2015 SFD, popey hope you come to Colombia!22:25
Ingforiguapopey: greetings for colombia "Nos vemos parceros"22:25
OerHeksHave fun!22:26
ofprietothanks so much team!!! Ingforigua linaporras Sergiomeneses22:26
ofprietoby all22:27

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