=== doko_ is now known as doko [16:00] * slangasek waves [16:00] hi [16:00] o/ [16:00] * stgraber waves [16:00] \o [16:01] o/ [16:01] hola [16:03] hi [16:03] Hi! [16:03] #startmeeting [16:03] Meeting started Thu Dec 4 16:03:55 2014 UTC. The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [16:03] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [16:04] [TOPIC] Lightning round === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round [16:04] $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru) [16:04] robru caribou infinity bdmurray cjwatson slangasek sil2100 jodh barry mvo doko stgraber [16:04] robru: tag! [16:04] robru won! [16:05] burp [16:05] gimme a sec [16:06] robru: should we come back to you? [16:06] no [16:06] * New CI Train Publish job [16:06] - half as long as previous job [16:06] - test coverage improved from 34% to 100% (bringing overall coverage up to 60%) [16:06] - average function length down from 200 lines to 15 lines [16:06] - average function arguments count down from 12 to 2 [16:06] - massive improvement in readability, maintainability, testability [16:06] * Fixed watch_ppa arch-watching regressions [16:06] - now correctly only fails build if that build failure is an arch regression compared to what is built in the ubuntu archive [16:06] * various bug fixes and test improvements [16:06] ok [16:06] * small charm fixes to make citrain deployable again [16:06] ;-) [16:06] (done) [16:07] Systemd : Get makedumpfile to work under systemd [16:07] yay [16:07] Makedumpfile : Backport kernel 3.16 support in version 1.5.3 for Jessie [16:07] Get makedumpfile 1.5.3-2 to pass Debian freeze [16:07] robru: \o/ [16:07] (fyi several of us have a conflicting meeting at half past, so we probably want to blast through this :) [16:07] (done) [16:07] - short week, due to illness [16:07] - Kernel SRU wrangling [16:07] - debian-installer update for lts-utopic kernels [16:07] - testing the above in several configurations [16:07] - auditing powerpc utility packages in utopic for suitability for backport-as-SRU to trusty [16:07] - general SRU/AA admin tasks [16:07] (done) [16:08] this covers the past two weeks (minus holidays) since I missed the last meeting [16:08] created of a graphite graph for retracer time to retrace [16:08] worked with webops to switch errors to using PS4 swift while dumping retracer backlog [16:08] phone call meeting regarding retracers in scaling stack [16:08] modified daisy to write duplicatesignature in oops cf for python tracebacks [16:08] updated errors to use duplicate signature as SAS for linking back to the bucket [16:08] modified daisy's retracer.py to write RetraceFailureReason et al to the OOPS CF (r585) [16:08] had apport updated on the tracers [16:08] wrote missing ddebs finder to only look at retracing failures [16:08] reported apport bug LP: #1394798 (duplicate Contents.gz) [16:08] Launchpad bug 1394798 in Apport "Contents.gz files exist multiple times in sandboxes" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1394798 [16:08] tested fix for apport bug 1394798 (Contents.gz) in canonistack [16:08] researched bug LP: #1394919 (recoverable problem crashing on pids it can't read) [16:08] Launchpad bug 1377332 in cgmanager (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1394919 [TOPBLOCKER] UI randomly freezes" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377332 [16:08] reported daisy bug LP: #1396389 regarding backfill of duplicate signatures [16:08] Launchpad bug 1396389 in Daisy "backfill duplicate signatures for python crashes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396389 [16:08] uploaded more packages (gnome-keyring, x11-utils, taglib, shadow, …) to get missing ddebs [16:08] ubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage [16:09] created a test case for the trusty fix of bug 1313165 (update-manager-kde blacklist) [16:09] bug 1313165 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Trusty) "removal blacklist matches update-manager-kde which is not critical anymore" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313165 [16:09] uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader for trusty-proposed fixing LP: #1313165 [16:09] added rls-v- reports to qa.ubuntu.com [16:09] ✔ done [16:10] oh it's me [16:10] cjwatson: [16:10] yah :) [16:10] On vacation on Friday and Monday. Rest of week almost entirely working on my maintenance backlog: [16:11] - Managed to kill ruby2.0 from vivid. (Involved non-trivial work on ruby-libxml and ruby-patron.) [16:11] - Fought with the chain up to the protobuf merge (google-apputils-python, involving an MIR), got the libprotobuf9 transition going, and started coordination with ubuntu-phone. [16:11] - Switched out libusbx for libusb-1.0. [16:11] - Transitioned from libmusicbrainz5-0 to libmusicbrainz5-1. [16:11] - Rebuilt a load of stuff for libcfitsio2 (from libcfitsio3; don't ask, apparently). [16:11] - Shepherded the rails3 to rails transition through. [16:11] - Merged other things until my eyes bled. [16:11] - Generally trying to get process-removals output into a halfway decent state. [16:11] Working on improvements to component-mismatches to sort its output by teams. Somewhat stalled but I'll pick this up again. [16:11] Miscellaneous reviews and internal discussions. [16:11] Seven days left. Get your requests in now! [16:11] .. [16:12] slangasek: right back atcha [16:12] oh indeed! [16:13] * first report in a while: [16:13] * at the cloud sprint in Austin 2 weeks ago, good sync point with the CDO side of the company [16:13] * discussions around migrating buildds, porter boxes into *Stack [16:14] * Thanksgiving last week [16:14] * still working on getting our open head count filled; some progress, we're in the paperwork/negotiation phase [16:14] * rest of time taken up on embargoed projects [16:14] * systemd virtual sprint postponed from first week of December, to January due to resources being reallocated to above embargoed projects [16:14] (done) [16:14] oh porter boxes too? I missed that detail [16:14] - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails [16:14] - CI Train maintanance: [16:14] * Fixing random breakage here and there [16:14] * Trying to cope with some smaller copy2distro breakage [16:14] * Working on a rebuild-in-PPA build feature [16:14] - Patch pilot duty: [16:14] * Clean up in LP bugs [16:14] * Testing, cleaning and publishing new runit [16:14] - Tidying up bugs and landing-team tasks [16:14] - Appmenu-qt5 fix for FTBFS for Qt 5.4.0 [16:14] - RTM readiness meetings [16:14] - Debates regarding the Gold Master image [16:14] - Help in understanding some of the promotion-blocking bugs [16:14] - Updates to the CI Train documentation [16:14] - Reviewing new ideas regarding Landing classes proposition [16:14] - Chasing down IS/webops regarding the recent CI Train incident [16:15] - More meetings related to the new CI Train database user interface from CI [16:15] - Some additional sick days at the start of this week [16:15] - Tasks related to making vivid promotion-ready [16:15] (done) [16:15] * Full time on an internal project [16:15] cjwatson: ah, did you not get included on that thread? fwiw the thought is that since the porter boxes are abnormal wrt current IS practices, given that we're supposed to have all three supported arch families cloudified, the porter boxes should just become a charm in canonistack [16:15] ⑉ [16:15] short week due to usa thanksgiving [16:15] mostly working on internal project [16:15] slangasek: did that include having the porter boxes be closer in behaviour (if not in exact implementation) to the one I outlined in https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=68468 ? [16:15] phone: testing udm fix for unconstrained path bug (yes it fixes it!) [16:15] other: python bug 22966 (py_compile foo.bar.py); LP: #1384859 [16:15] bug 22966 in Ubuntu "Networking causes login delay" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/22966 [16:15] Launchpad bug 1384859 in Ubuntu system image "Use other machine-id files as alternatives to D-Bus file" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384859 [16:15] -- done -- [16:16] did: lots of work on a internal project [16:16] next: lots of work on a internal project [16:16] (done) [16:16] cjwatson: given that we would own the charm and can determine its behavior, sure :) [16:17] makes sense [16:17] is doko around? [16:17] cjwatson: basically, at that point anyone can have root on their own instance, so the porter box sudo magic becomes obsolete [16:17] doko: ? [16:17] - more GCC work, updating 4.8 and 4.9 branches, bug triage, uploads, testing 4.8 [16:17] and 4.9 with isl-0.14, snapshot build [16:17] - binutils update, binutils bug triage [16:17] - python3.4 upload, ensurepip update, forwarded ubuntu issues [16:17] - python2.7 prepared, working on open security issues upstream [16:17] - really need to spend some time on merges [16:17] - finally have my 100 MBit downstream, 12Mbit upstream cable working, [16:17] he is! [16:17] now need to configure it for ipV6. [16:17] (done) [16:18] slangasek: right, that makes total sense given power/arm in canonistack [16:18] - linuxcontainers.org: [16:18] - Got our new website online at: https://linuxcontainers.org [16:18] - Various CI infrastructure updates [16:18] - lxd: [16:18] - Been working on a few of the specs at: [16:18] https://github.com/lxc/lxd/tree/master/specs [16:18] - Bunch of bugfixes and code reviews. [16:18] - lxc: [16:18] - A lot of code reviews (large backlog). [16:18] - Tagged LXC 1.1.0~alpha3 and uploaded to the archive. [16:18] - Detailed our systemd support plan and worked on a few of the bits. [16:18] - Went through the stable branch backlog, planning on tagging 1.0.7 today [16:18] or tomorrow. [16:18] - lxcfs: [16:18] - Started poking at go-dbus and go-fuse to use them for lxcfs. [16:18] - other: [16:18] - Post-sprint admin tasks. [16:18] - Preparation for next week's sprint in Cape Town. [16:18] [16:18] Current tasks: [16:18] - LXC systemd containers support: [16:18] - Get lxcfs to a working stage [16:18] - Implement new lxc.autodev design [16:18] - Implement new init system detection code [16:18] - Test stacking of read-only overlayfs on 3.18 [16:19] [16:19] I'll be out travelling tomorrow afternoon, Saturday and Sunday. Then sprinting [16:19] all of next week and flying again on Sunday and next Monday. Back to work on [16:19] the 16th. If you need something from me, talk to me today! [16:19] [16:19] (DONE) [16:20] ok cool [16:20] any questions? [16:20] [TOPIC] AOB === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB [16:21] anything else? Christmas caroling? [16:21] complaints about the weather? [16:22] lightning talks about new things you're working on? :) [16:22] "We wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas..;" [16:23] #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology [16:23] Meeting ended Thu Dec 4 16:23:09 2014 UTC. [16:23] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-16.03.moin.txt [16:23] ok, thanks everyone :) [16:23] thanks! [16:23] thanks! [16:23] thanks slangasek [16:23] thanks! [16:25] o/ [16:25] thanks! [17:01] hello everybody [17:02] hang in there... we're sorting out things right now for the CC meeting [17:03] hi all [17:03] all right, there was a bit of confusion if we were going to do it as IRC or hangout [17:03] is the CC meeting happening now? [17:03] jono: yep, welcome [17:03] but it looks like we have a couple of folks who can't do hangout today [17:03] hi pleia2 [17:03] so let's do IRC [17:03] hey jono [17:03] hey jono [17:04] sorry I am a few mins late, was taking the boy to school [17:04] hi dholbach! [17:04] hi mhall119! [17:04] #startmeeting CC Meeting [17:04] Meeting started Thu Dec 4 17:04:17 2014 UTC. The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [17:04] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic: [17:04] #chair mhall119 pleia2 YokoZar [17:04] Current chairs: YokoZar dholbach mhall119 pleia2 [17:04] #chair czajkowski [17:04] Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia2 [17:04] let's get started then :) [17:05] On the agenda we have one item [17:05] #topic Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic: Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals [17:05] Who wants to start? :) [17:05] Good to see everyone [17:05] what is the goal of this meeting? [17:06] I know I raised a set of ideas and questions, but is this meeting designed to move towards some policy changes/adjustments? [17:06] hey YokoZar :-) [17:06] I think we should put together an etherpad of ideas out there, and start putting together some action items [17:06] jono: I think we're still in the process of clearly identifying the problems to be solved [17:06] whether they be "don't do this" or "do this, our next step is..." [17:06] hey sabdfl [17:06] hello hello [17:07] hi sabdfl [17:07] pleia2, I think that sounds good, but to mhall119's point, it might be an idea for us to define the problems first [17:07] and whether we as a group feel there is a problem in the first place [17:07] sure [17:07] or whether some English guy is rambling off the point :-) [17:07] in my mind there is nothing wrong with the current way in which Ubuntu is led and governed [17:08] the problem I feel is missed opportunity [17:08] There was a general sense of inertia in our governance process, correct? [17:08] I believe there are hundreds of people out there ready to be inspired and motivated to feel a sense of ownership in Ubuntu [17:08] YokoZar, I feel that is part of the problem [17:08] but not at the fault of CC members [17:09] just because we have been doing broadly the same thing for years [17:09] first off, I'd like to throw some data into the mix of gut feelings [17:09] mhall119, cool [17:09] LoCo team activities, measured by loco.u.c, spiked in the spring of 2011, and have been slowly declining since then [17:10] Summit attendees, as measured by summit.u.c registrations, also spiked in the spring of 2011, and held steady until the last in-person UDS in fall 2012 [17:10] Both Ubuntu Members and Ubuntu Developers have been slowly but steadily increasing in numbers since 2009 (that's as far back as I could get reliable data) [17:11] mhall119, do you have data on how active those members and developers are? [17:11] jono: no [17:11] participation in governance itself has gone down since then, we struggle to even find enough candidates for our boards and councils, let alone enough to select a few out of a list [17:11] mhall119, I figured that is tough to measure [17:11] we've had to do re-calls for both LoCo and IRC Councils this fall [17:11] so it sounds like we agree there is a general decline [17:11] jono: yeah, it might be possible digging through the archives and changelogs, but it would be a big task [17:12] (or at least, re-calls for nominees are in the wors) [17:12] let's step back a little bit [17:12] here's a general proposition [17:12] mhall119, dholbach wrote a script for me once that mapped our developer activity, might be useful [17:12] (still giving dholbach graphing work to do :-) ) [17:12] - something new that is timely and interesting will attract fresh participation [17:13] - over time any given initiative grows process, procedure and personality, so gets harder for new people to feel they can quickly get to a leadership role [17:13] i think those two things are basically true [17:13] agreed [17:13] so, this would lead me to think it's normal that a (static) proposition will age and sag a little bit [17:14] the basic proposition of "come collaborate around the ubuntu archive to deliver debian packages on a cadence" is essentially unchanged in 10 years [17:14] yep [17:15] yes [17:15] given that, i'm not surprised to see that it's harder to attract fresh eyes to what is easily considered both a solved problem and one where there are already lots of rules / leads / decisions taken [17:15] now [17:15] there's nothing WRONG with collaborating around an archive [17:15] and it does continue to be super useful for all sorts of people [17:15] Xubuntu, MATE, lots of others in addition to the core "ubuntu desktop" and "ubuntu in the cloud" crowds [17:15] I think at the heart of this is Stephen Covey's sphere of influence and circle of concern - it feels to me that the community feels their sphere of influence has shrunk to the point where they don't feel empowered to participate [17:15] when in reality, the sphere of influence is still very wide [17:15] weeeeeelll [17:16] i think it has more to do with a feeling of congestion [17:16] and I think we can focus on how much the community can lead [17:16] "welcome! just don't play on the grass!" [17:16] thing is we've already figured out where we want the paths and where we want the lawns [17:16] right [17:16] and fresh young types feel that's a mountain to climb efore they get to Do Cool Stuff [17:16] there is a definitely feeling of unwelcomeness to contribute to some projects that Canonical leads [17:17] mhall119, is there any suggestion that contribution is unwelcome? [17:17] I don't think participation is unwelcome, but it is impractical [17:17] sabdfl: no, but a very strict set of what is acceptable and what isn't [17:17] examples? [17:17] And I think there's an interesting question here about whether or not the project governance is a reasonable place to expect this leadership. [17:17] Quite a few of us see our role as more getting out of the way and acting discretely (or at least quickly when we're gatekeepers) [17:17] it means you can't just contribute $COOL_NEW_FEATURE if it's not already been approved [17:17] most Open Source contributors want to feel an opportunity to influence direction and strategy, and with some Canonical projects that is unlikely [17:18] which, I think is the right decision for Ubuntu [17:18] YokoZar, agreed, there's a difference between governance and leadership, and a healthy project needs the right kind and balance of both [17:18] sabdfl: Unity is the primary example in the past, but anything heavily design-driven seems less likely to gain community contributors [17:18] it's unfortunate if people think the set of canonical projects == set of ubuntu projects [17:18] because that would narrow the arena a lot [17:18] now, we found a way to improve that with Core Apps, which are both very design-drive and fully developed by community [17:19] sabdfl, maybe some clarity in which are which could help [17:19] mhall119, i think that's an example of a place where the territory was fresh, there might be a strong design lead but there weren't lots of people saying "we've been doing it this way for 10 years" [17:19] in other words, i think it's a good test of the idea that canonical's lead is not a blocker to participation [17:19] Hi, just joined ahead of membership board meeting for 22:00 UTC, and see an interesting discussion going on [17:19] it's more about creating fresh space where ideas can bubble up fast without having to go through a lot of "but we've already thought about that" [17:20] sabdfl: yes, I think we have a lot of fresh territority that we can take better advantage of inthe same way [17:20] some of that territory is stuff that i think canonical will want to lead [17:20] sabdfl: Regarding "contribution is unwelcome" -- there is the contributor's agreement, which has absolutely been a barrier (and blocker) for some. Albeit only Canonical projects. [17:20] but there is a LOT of stuff happening in open source that it's better to have others lead [17:20] YokoZar, so saith the competition ;) [17:21] it feels to me that "I can't contribute because Canonical is in charge" is too often an excuse [17:21] and I feel that is the malaise we need to break [17:21] it's a nice excuse! blame the corporation [17:21] I can see how some projects are harder and less attractive to get involved - if we just look at the phone right now - although the code is open, it's changing quite fast in a lot of places, with engineering teams and teams at the customers working very tightly together - some of the discussions happen in meetings somewhere, where it's harder to stay on top of what's happening [17:21] sabdfl, exactly [17:21] and, this may seem harsh, I feel it is an epidemic in our community [17:21] dholbach, it's still by far the easiest way to actually participate in a real phone project [17:21] More broadly though I would raise the question of whether distributions themselves are as interesting as they used to be. We might just be part of a general trend of development moving towards other things [17:21] yes, Canonical does have leadership on some projects, but it is a small proportion of the wider Ubuntu commons [17:22] jono, yes, i think it "became acceptable" and then "became normal" to blame canonical [17:22] agreed [17:22] sabdfl, absolutely - and I wasn't blaming anyone [17:22] there is some legitimacy though, if we only accept contributions if they're on the approved roadmap, and the community doesn't know what that roadmap is and wasn't involve in creating it, they don't know what they *can* contribute [17:22] mhall119 's essay on the competitive sledging approach for poisoning projects is spot on [17:22] the difficult piece here is that I think we need our governance to help change this culture [17:22] Canonical members can't do this or it is seen as bias [17:22] well, that's again the issue with governance and leadership [17:23] to me, governance is about maintaining fairness [17:23] ahhh good point, I guess I am conflating governance and leadership [17:23] yes [17:23] yes [17:23] but I think I am doing that because I feel our governance should have that leadership position [17:23] so, let's talk about leadership [17:23] yes [17:23] and while similar not everyone neds to be in governance but anyone can get more involved and lead :) [17:23] One thing Core Apps has done is make it more personal. It's not "Canonical" that impose restrictions on what you can do with Content-hub, it's "Ken", it's "Jamie" that you go for security. [17:23] sure [17:23] two scenarios [17:24] jono: governments rarely lead [17:24] I realise this doesn't fully scale, but it makes a difference when you have people talking to people, and it isn't just seen as contributors blocked by The Man. [17:24] 1. bright young person with brilliant idea steps up to convince folks to try something new [17:24] 2. toxic person with agenda steps up to convince folks to take a particular approach [17:24] both are, in effect, leadership [17:24] and the interesting problem i think we have to consider is: [17:24] * how do we welcome leadership of what is a very valuable community [17:25] * while at the same time being willing to call BS on the toxic type, which WILL show up because it's a lot more fun to steer a lot of people to your agenda than start from scratch [17:25] I think the first step is clearly defining the parameters of where people can lead and influence [17:25] i think it's a very interesting question indeed, and thanks jono for making us think about it [17:26] I think the malaise from the trolls has created an atmosphere of a restrictive environment, which is not true [17:26] which is why I suggested an impact constitution [17:26] thanks sabdfl, I care about our future [17:27] I think maybe the CC could help paint a clear picture of the many ways in which participation can happen [17:27] for the first one, I think we need a way to award (socially) the current leaders, and more importantly find replacements for them. Too often once we find a leader we run keep them in place until they burnout [17:27] mhall119, well, and some leaders are not really "leaders" [17:27] they are just "most interested in becoming leaders" [17:27] that's a very important nail you're hitting right on the head there mhall119 [17:27] but this is an age old problem all communities have [17:28] succession is also interesting [17:28] but let's focus on how we can ensure that ubuntu is a place where people can *start* things [17:28] so, since highvoltage is here I'll take him as an example, he and stgraber have been the only reason Edubuntu is still a think since *I* started getting involved in Ubuntu, there's nobody to take over for them if they have to step down [17:28] agreed [17:29] do we feel that painting a picture of the many places people can participate is a good step [17:29] jono: +1 [17:29] my view is things have their time, if there's no drive to continue them, it's best to accept that their time has passed [17:29] No. [17:29] ...ok [17:29] highvoltage, no to what? [17:30] jono: a few weeks ago I believed we did this (with community.ubuntu.com), but discussions since on the mailing list made me realize that apparently it's not good enough [17:30] pleia2, I wonder whether that is because we need to condense the information into a short list [17:31] jono: it doesn't necessarilly imply that their time has passed. some projects within ubuntu just get very little exposure to newcommers. if you visit a canonical page on community and how to get involved, it's *full* of whatever's important to canonical right now (typically phone / cloud stuff) [17:31] this is why I thought of the impact constitution, essentially 10 or 20 places where people can contribute - this could be easily shared on social media, in posters, and elsewhere [17:31] jono: things outside of that scope tend to look boring by comparison, but it doesn't mean that they're not important. [17:31] as opposed to the larger website - c.u.c could just present more detail [17:31] jono: unfortunately I see it both ways, people wanting a "short list" and people saying there's not enough information, I don't know which way to go, or what will help (which is why it was nice to see some newcomers on the thread who could perhaps guide us to what would be useful) [17:32] highvoltage, I disagree [17:32] highvoltage, it's a good idea to list more things there [17:32] but [17:32] highvoltage, I think Canonical are just better at encouraging participation [17:32] being on a list of things does not make one interesting [17:32] say you are inspired by telephone [17:32] highvoltage, some things do just become stale and less interesting to people [17:32] being active in places (forums, lists, discourse, etc) focused on THAT is a good way to attract people [17:33] and some things reduce in participation because there is no inspiration [17:33] jono: indeed, ideally who care about the cause should ideally have more time to lobby (or do whatever) to get it listed there and get more exposure. [17:33] pleia2, yes, I think that's one of the things could try to improve - make it livelier, more inviting, better explain how you can have a chat with team members before starting a duplicated effort, but not to wait for somebody's approval to start doing something new, etc - making it more inviting, maybe have a couple of videos there would also help to convey how we work together (set the tone so to speak) [17:33] highvoltage, well, I think inspiration is the key - the greatest communities have people who help to translate the micro contribution to the macro impact [17:33] highvoltage, i'd say the best way to get people into edubuntu is to be active in places where people who care about education hang out [17:33] boy, that sounded buzzword [17:33] sorry about that :-) [17:33] hehe [17:33] but true , jono :) [17:34] :-) [17:34] jono: no problem, I agree with both you and sabdfl on that [17:34] dholbach: yeah [17:34] so if somebody new comes along and says "How can I contribute?", those of us already contributing should be able to give an answer [17:34] so it sounds like we are identifying (1) clarity of places to contribute and (2) visibility of these places as key goals [17:34] i think jono was driving at a deeper point, which is that free software continues to be a focus of innovation, but ubuntu hasn't been at the centre of those efforts [17:35] I like the idea of listing areas where people can contribute, but that should be a resource for us, not necessarily for new people [17:35] there are some interesting examples, jono, that perhaps shed light on this [17:35] one is docker [17:35] right [17:35] "go read this list" isn't a way to contribute, it's the community version of RTFM [17:35] it's not an ubuntu project, but boy, is ubuntu the standard over there! [17:35] for now at least :) [17:35] it's an interesting question whether perhaps we failed to make room for someone to lead various parts of that IN ubuntu [17:36] Docker is an interesting example actually [17:36]