[16:00]  * slangasek waves
[16:00] <mvo> hi
[16:00] <sil2100> o/
[16:00]  * stgraber waves
[16:00] <barry> \o
[16:01] <jodh_> o/
[16:01] <robru> hola
[16:03] <cjwatson> hi
[16:03] <infinity> Hi!
[16:03] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  4 16:03:55 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:03] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:04] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
[16:04] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
[16:04] <slangasek> robru caribou infinity bdmurray cjwatson slangasek sil2100 jodh barry mvo doko stgraber
[16:04] <slangasek> robru: tag!
[16:04] <sil2100> robru won!
[16:05] <robru> burp
[16:05] <robru> gimme a sec
[16:06] <slangasek> robru: should we come back to you?
[16:06] <robru> no
[16:06] <robru> * New CI Train Publish job
[16:06] <robru>   - half as long as previous job
[16:06] <robru>   - test coverage improved from 34% to 100% (bringing overall coverage up to 60%)
[16:06] <robru>   - average function length down from 200 lines to 15 lines
[16:06] <robru>   - average function arguments count down from 12 to 2
[16:06] <robru>   - massive improvement in readability, maintainability, testability
[16:06] <robru> * Fixed watch_ppa arch-watching regressions
[16:06] <robru>   - now correctly only fails build if that build failure is an arch regression compared to what is built in the ubuntu archive
[16:06] <robru> * various bug fixes and test improvements
[16:06] <slangasek> ok
[16:06] <robru> * small charm fixes to make citrain deployable again
[16:06] <robru> ;-)
[16:06] <robru> (done)
[16:07] <caribou> Systemd : Get makedumpfile to work under systemd
[16:07] <mvo> yay
[16:07] <caribou> Makedumpfile : Backport kernel 3.16 support in version 1.5.3 for Jessie
[16:07] <caribou> Get makedumpfile 1.5.3-2 to pass Debian freeze
[16:07] <barry> robru: \o/
[16:07] <slangasek> (fyi several of us have a conflicting meeting at half past, so we probably want to blast through this :)
[16:07] <caribou> (done)
[16:07] <infinity> - short week, due to illness
[16:07] <infinity> - Kernel SRU wrangling
[16:07] <infinity> - debian-installer update for lts-utopic kernels
[16:07] <infinity> - testing the above in several configurations
[16:07] <infinity> - auditing powerpc utility packages in utopic for suitability for backport-as-SRU to trusty
[16:07] <infinity> - general SRU/AA admin tasks
[16:07] <infinity> (done)
[16:08] <bdmurray> this covers the past two weeks (minus holidays) since I missed the last meeting
[16:08] <bdmurray> created of a graphite graph for retracer time to retrace
[16:08] <bdmurray> worked with webops to switch errors to using PS4 swift while dumping retracer backlog
[16:08] <bdmurray> phone call meeting regarding retracers in scaling stack
[16:08] <bdmurray> modified daisy to write duplicatesignature in oops cf for python tracebacks
[16:08] <bdmurray> updated errors to use duplicate signature as SAS for linking back to the bucket
[16:08] <bdmurray> modified daisy's retracer.py to write RetraceFailureReason et al to the OOPS CF (r585)
[16:08] <bdmurray> had apport updated on the tracers
[16:08] <bdmurray> wrote missing ddebs finder to only look at retracing failures
[16:08] <bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1394798 (duplicate Contents.gz)
[16:08] <bdmurray> tested fix for apport bug 1394798 (Contents.gz) in canonistack
[16:08] <bdmurray> researched bug LP: #1394919 (recoverable problem crashing on pids it can't read)
[16:08] <bdmurray> reported daisy bug LP: #1396389 regarding backfill of duplicate signatures
[16:08] <bdmurray> uploaded more packages (gnome-keyring, x11-utils, taglib, shadow, …) to get missing ddebs
[16:08] <bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage
[16:09] <bdmurray> created a test case for the trusty fix of bug 1313165 (update-manager-kde blacklist)
[16:09] <bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader for trusty-proposed fixing LP: #1313165
[16:09] <bdmurray> added rls-v- reports to qa.ubuntu.com
[16:09] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[16:10] <cjwatson> oh it's me
[16:10] <slangasek> cjwatson:
[16:10] <slangasek> yah :)
[16:10] <cjwatson> On vacation on Friday and Monday.  Rest of week almost entirely working on my maintenance backlog:
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Managed to kill ruby2.0 from vivid.  (Involved non-trivial work on ruby-libxml and ruby-patron.)
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Fought with the chain up to the protobuf merge (google-apputils-python, involving an MIR), got the libprotobuf9 transition going, and started coordination with ubuntu-phone.
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Switched out libusbx for libusb-1.0.
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Transitioned from libmusicbrainz5-0 to libmusicbrainz5-1.
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Rebuilt a load of stuff for libcfitsio2 (from libcfitsio3; don't ask, apparently).
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Shepherded the rails3 to rails transition through.
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Merged other things until my eyes bled.
[16:11] <cjwatson>  - Generally trying to get process-removals output into a halfway decent state.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Working on improvements to component-mismatches to sort its output by teams.  Somewhat stalled but I'll pick this up again.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Miscellaneous reviews and internal discussions.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Seven days left.  Get your requests in now!
[16:11] <cjwatson> ..
[16:12] <cjwatson> slangasek: right back atcha
[16:12] <slangasek> oh indeed!
[16:13] <slangasek>  * first report in a while:
[16:13] <slangasek>   * at the cloud sprint in Austin 2 weeks ago, good sync point with the CDO side of the company
[16:13] <slangasek>   * discussions around migrating buildds, porter boxes into *Stack
[16:14] <slangasek>   * Thanksgiving last week
[16:14] <slangasek>  * still working on getting our open head count filled; some progress, we're in the paperwork/negotiation phase
[16:14] <slangasek>  * rest of time taken up on embargoed projects
[16:14] <slangasek>  * systemd virtual sprint postponed from first week of December, to January due to resources being reallocated to above embargoed projects
[16:14] <slangasek> (done)
[16:14] <cjwatson> oh porter boxes too?  I missed that detail
[16:14] <sil2100> - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails
[16:14] <sil2100> - CI Train maintanance:
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Fixing random breakage here and there
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Trying to cope with some smaller copy2distro breakage
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Working on a rebuild-in-PPA build feature
[16:14] <sil2100> - Patch pilot duty:
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Clean up in LP bugs
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Testing, cleaning and publishing new runit
[16:14] <sil2100> - Tidying up bugs and landing-team tasks
[16:14] <sil2100> - Appmenu-qt5 fix for FTBFS for Qt 5.4.0
[16:14] <sil2100> - RTM readiness meetings
[16:14] <sil2100> - Debates regarding the Gold Master image
[16:14] <sil2100> - Help in understanding some of the promotion-blocking bugs
[16:14] <sil2100> - Updates to the CI Train documentation
[16:14] <sil2100> - Reviewing new ideas regarding Landing classes proposition
[16:14] <sil2100> - Chasing down IS/webops regarding the recent CI Train incident
[16:15] <sil2100> - More meetings related to the new CI Train database user interface from CI
[16:15] <sil2100> - Some additional sick days at the start of this week
[16:15] <sil2100> - Tasks related to making vivid promotion-ready
[16:15] <sil2100> (done)
[16:15] <jodh_> * Full time on an internal project
[16:15] <slangasek> cjwatson: ah, did you not get included on that thread?  fwiw the thought is that since the porter boxes are abnormal wrt current IS practices, given that we're supposed to have all three supported arch families cloudified, the porter boxes should just become a charm in canonistack
[16:15] <jodh_> ⑉
[16:15] <barry> short week due to usa thanksgiving
[16:15] <barry> mostly working on internal project
[16:15] <cjwatson> slangasek: did that include having the porter boxes be closer in behaviour (if not in exact implementation) to the one I outlined in https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=68468 ?
[16:15] <barry> phone: testing udm fix for unconstrained path bug (yes it fixes it!)
[16:15] <barry> other: python bug 22966 (py_compile foo.bar.py); LP: #1384859
[16:15] <barry> -- done --
[16:16] <mvo> did: lots of work on a internal project
[16:16] <mvo> next: lots of work on a internal project
[16:16] <mvo> (done)
[16:16] <slangasek> cjwatson: given that we would own the charm and can determine its behavior, sure :)
[16:17] <cjwatson> makes sense
[16:17] <stgraber> is doko around?
[16:17] <slangasek> cjwatson: basically, at that point anyone can have root on their own instance, so the porter box sudo magic becomes obsolete
[16:17] <slangasek> doko: ?
[16:17] <doko> - more GCC work, updating 4.8 and 4.9 branches, bug triage, uploads, testing 4.8
[16:17] <doko>  and 4.9 with isl-0.14, snapshot build
[16:17] <doko> - binutils update, binutils bug triage
[16:17] <doko> - python3.4 upload, ensurepip update, forwarded ubuntu issues
[16:17] <doko> - python2.7 prepared, working on open security issues upstream
[16:17] <doko> - really need to spend some time on merges
[16:17] <doko> - finally have my 100 MBit downstream, 12Mbit upstream cable working,
[16:17] <slangasek> he is!
[16:17] <doko>   now need to configure it for ipV6.
[16:17] <doko> (done)
[16:18] <cjwatson> slangasek: right, that makes total sense given power/arm in canonistack
[16:18] <stgraber>  - linuxcontainers.org:
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Got our new website online at: https://linuxcontainers.org
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Various CI infrastructure updates
[16:18] <stgraber>  - lxd:
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Been working on a few of the specs at:
[16:18] <stgraber>       https://github.com/lxc/lxd/tree/master/specs
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Bunch of bugfixes and code reviews.
[16:18] <stgraber>  - lxc:
[16:18] <stgraber>     - A lot of code reviews (large backlog).
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Tagged LXC 1.1.0~alpha3 and uploaded to the archive.
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Detailed our systemd support plan and worked on a few of the bits.
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Went through the stable branch backlog, planning on tagging 1.0.7 today
[16:18] <stgraber>       or tomorrow.
[16:18] <stgraber>  - lxcfs:
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Started poking at go-dbus and go-fuse to use them for lxcfs.
[16:18] <stgraber>  - other:
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Post-sprint admin tasks.
[16:18] <stgraber>     - Preparation for next week's sprint in Cape Town.
[16:18] <stgraber>  
[16:18] <stgraber> Current tasks:
[16:18] <stgraber>  - LXC systemd containers support:
[16:18] <stgraber>    - Get lxcfs to a working stage
[16:18] <stgraber>    - Implement new lxc.autodev design
[16:18] <stgraber>    - Implement new init system detection code
[16:18] <stgraber>  - Test stacking of read-only overlayfs on 3.18
[16:19] <stgraber>  
[16:19] <stgraber> I'll be out travelling tomorrow afternoon, Saturday and Sunday. Then sprinting
[16:19] <stgraber> all of next week and flying again on Sunday and next Monday. Back to work on
[16:19] <stgraber> the 16th. If you need something from me, talk to me today!
[16:19] <stgraber>  
[16:19] <stgraber> (DONE)
[16:20] <slangasek> ok cool
[16:20] <slangasek> any questions?
[16:20] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:21] <slangasek> anything else?  Christmas caroling?
[16:21] <slangasek> complaints about the weather?
[16:22] <slangasek> lightning talks about new things you're working on? :)
[16:22] <caribou> "We wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas..;"
[16:23] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[16:23] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  4 16:23:09 2014 UTC.
[16:23] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-16.03.moin.txt
[16:23] <slangasek> ok, thanks everyone :)
[16:23] <barry> thanks!
[16:23] <mvo> thanks!
[16:23] <caribou> thanks slangasek
[16:23] <stgraber> thanks!
[16:25] <sil2100> o/
[16:25] <jodh_> thanks!
[17:01] <dholbach> hello everybody
[17:02] <dholbach> hang in there... we're sorting out things right now for the CC meeting
[17:03] <jono> hi all
[17:03] <dholbach> all right, there was a bit of confusion if we were going to do it as IRC or hangout
[17:03] <jono> is the CC meeting happening now?
[17:03] <pleia2> jono: yep, welcome
[17:03] <dholbach> but it looks like we have a couple of folks who can't do hangout today
[17:03] <jono> hi pleia2
[17:03] <dholbach> so let's do IRC
[17:03] <dholbach> hey jono
[17:03] <mhall119> hey jono
[17:04] <jono> sorry I am a few mins late, was taking the boy to school
[17:04] <jono> hi dholbach!
[17:04] <jono> hi mhall119!
[17:04] <dholbach> #startmeeting CC Meeting
[17:04] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  4 17:04:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:04] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:04] <dholbach> #chair mhall119 pleia2 YokoZar
[17:04] <meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar dholbach mhall119 pleia2
[17:04] <dholbach> #chair czajkowski
[17:04] <meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia2
[17:04] <dholbach> let's get started then :)
[17:05] <dholbach> On the agenda we have one item
[17:05] <dholbach> #topic Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals
[17:05] <dholbach> Who wants to start? :)
[17:05] <YokoZar> Good to see everyone
[17:05] <jono> what is the goal of this meeting?
[17:06] <jono> I know I raised a set of ideas and questions, but is this meeting designed to move towards some policy changes/adjustments?
[17:06] <jono> hey YokoZar :-)
[17:06] <pleia2> I think we should put together an etherpad of ideas out there, and start putting together some action items
[17:06] <mhall119> jono: I think we're still in the process of clearly identifying the problems to be solved
[17:06] <pleia2> whether they be "don't do this" or "do this, our next step is..."
[17:06] <jono> hey sabdfl
[17:06] <sabdfl> hello hello
[17:07] <mhall119> hi sabdfl
[17:07] <jono> pleia2, I think that sounds good, but to mhall119's point, it might be an idea for us to define the problems first
[17:07] <jono> and whether we as a group feel there is a problem in the first place
[17:07] <pleia2> sure
[17:07] <jono> or whether some English guy is rambling off the point :-)
[17:07] <jono> in my mind there is nothing wrong with the current way in which Ubuntu is led and governed
[17:08] <jono> the problem I feel is missed opportunity
[17:08] <YokoZar> There was a general sense of inertia in our governance process, correct?
[17:08] <jono> I believe there are hundreds of people out there ready to be inspired and motivated to feel a sense of ownership in Ubuntu
[17:08] <jono> YokoZar, I feel that is part of the problem
[17:08] <jono> but not at the fault of CC members
[17:09] <jono> just because we have been doing broadly the same thing for years
[17:09] <mhall119> first off, I'd like to throw some data into the mix of gut feelings
[17:09] <jono> mhall119, cool
[17:09] <mhall119> LoCo team activities, measured by loco.u.c, spiked in the spring of 2011, and have been slowly declining since then
[17:10] <mhall119> Summit attendees, as measured by summit.u.c registrations, also spiked in the spring of 2011, and held steady until the last in-person UDS in fall 2012
[17:10] <mhall119> Both Ubuntu Members and Ubuntu Developers have been slowly but steadily increasing in numbers since 2009 (that's as far back as I could get reliable data)
[17:11] <jono> mhall119, do you have data on how active those members and developers are?
[17:11] <mhall119> jono: no
[17:11] <pleia2> participation in governance itself has gone down since then, we struggle to even find enough candidates for our boards and councils, let alone enough to select a few out of a list
[17:11] <jono> mhall119, I figured that is tough to measure
[17:11] <pleia2> we've had to do re-calls for both LoCo and IRC Councils this fall
[17:11] <jono> so it sounds like we agree there is a general decline
[17:11] <mhall119> jono: yeah, it might be possible digging through the archives and changelogs, but it would be a big task
[17:12] <pleia2> (or at least, re-calls for nominees are in the wors)
[17:12] <sabdfl> let's step back a little bit
[17:12] <sabdfl> here's a general proposition
[17:12] <jono> mhall119, dholbach wrote a script for me once that mapped our developer activity, might be useful
[17:12] <jono> (still giving dholbach graphing work to do :-) )
[17:12] <sabdfl>  - something new that is timely and interesting will attract fresh participation
[17:13] <sabdfl>  - over time any given initiative grows process, procedure and personality, so gets harder for new people to feel they can quickly get to a leadership role
[17:13] <sabdfl> i think those two things are basically true
[17:13] <jono> agreed
[17:13] <sabdfl> so, this would lead me to think it's normal that a (static) proposition will age and sag a little bit
[17:14] <sabdfl> the basic proposition of "come collaborate around the ubuntu archive to deliver debian packages on a cadence" is essentially unchanged in 10 years
[17:14] <jono> yep
[17:15] <mhall119> yes
[17:15] <sabdfl> given that, i'm not surprised to see that it's harder to attract fresh eyes to what is easily considered both a solved problem and one where there are already lots of rules / leads / decisions taken
[17:15] <sabdfl> now
[17:15] <sabdfl> there's nothing WRONG with collaborating around an archive
[17:15] <sabdfl> and it does continue to be super useful for all sorts of people
[17:15] <sabdfl> Xubuntu, MATE, lots of others in addition to the core "ubuntu desktop" and "ubuntu in the cloud" crowds
[17:15] <jono> I think at the heart of this is Stephen Covey's sphere of influence and circle of concern - it feels to me that the community feels their sphere of influence has shrunk to the point where they don't feel empowered to participate
[17:15] <jono> when in reality, the sphere of influence is still very wide
[17:15] <sabdfl> weeeeeelll
[17:16] <sabdfl> i think it has more to do with a feeling of congestion
[17:16] <jono> and I think we can focus on how much the community can lead
[17:16] <sabdfl> "welcome! just don't play on the grass!"
[17:16] <sabdfl> thing is we've already figured out where we want the paths and where we want the lawns
[17:16] <jono> right
[17:16] <sabdfl> and fresh young types feel that's a mountain to climb efore they get to Do Cool Stuff
[17:16] <mhall119> there is a definitely feeling of unwelcomeness to contribute to some projects that Canonical leads
[17:17] <sabdfl> mhall119, is there any suggestion that contribution is unwelcome?
[17:17] <jono> I don't think participation is unwelcome, but it is impractical
[17:17] <mhall119> sabdfl: no, but a very strict set of what is acceptable and what isn't
[17:17] <sabdfl> examples?
[17:17] <YokoZar> And I think there's an interesting question here about whether or not the project governance is a reasonable place to expect this leadership.
[17:17] <YokoZar> Quite a few of us see our role as more getting out of the way and acting discretely (or at least quickly when we're gatekeepers)
[17:17] <mhall119> it means you can't just contribute $COOL_NEW_FEATURE if it's not already been approved
[17:17] <jono> most Open Source contributors want to feel an opportunity to influence direction and strategy, and with some Canonical projects that is unlikely
[17:18] <jono> which, I think is the right decision for Ubuntu
[17:18] <sabdfl> YokoZar, agreed, there's a difference between governance and leadership, and a healthy project needs the right kind and balance of both
[17:18] <mhall119> sabdfl: Unity is the primary example in the past, but anything heavily design-driven seems less likely to gain community contributors
[17:18] <sabdfl> it's unfortunate if people think the set of canonical projects == set of ubuntu projects
[17:18] <sabdfl> because that would narrow the arena a lot
[17:18] <mhall119> now, we found a way to improve that with Core Apps, which are both very design-drive and fully developed by community
[17:19] <jono> sabdfl, maybe some clarity in which are which could help
[17:19] <sabdfl> mhall119, i think that's an example of a place where the territory was fresh, there might be a strong design lead but there weren't lots of people saying "we've been doing it this way for 10 years"
[17:19] <sabdfl> in other words, i think it's a good test of the idea that canonical's lead is not a blocker to participation
[17:19] <OerHeks> Hi, just joined ahead of membership board meeting for 22:00 UTC, and see an interesting discussion going on
[17:19] <sabdfl> it's more about creating fresh space where ideas can bubble up fast without having to go through a lot of "but we've already thought about that"
[17:20] <mhall119> sabdfl: yes, I think we have a lot of fresh territority that we can take better advantage of inthe same way
[17:20] <sabdfl> some of that territory is stuff that i think canonical will want to lead
[17:20] <YokoZar> sabdfl: Regarding "contribution is unwelcome" -- there is the contributor's agreement, which has absolutely been a barrier (and blocker) for some.  Albeit only Canonical projects.
[17:20] <sabdfl> but there is a LOT of stuff happening in open source that it's better to have others lead
[17:20] <sabdfl> YokoZar, so saith the competition ;)
[17:21] <jono> it feels to me that "I can't contribute because Canonical is in charge" is too often an excuse
[17:21] <jono> and I feel that is the malaise we need to break
[17:21] <sabdfl> it's a nice excuse! blame the corporation
[17:21] <dholbach> I can see how some projects are harder and less attractive to get involved - if we just look at the phone right now - although the code is open, it's changing quite fast in a lot of places, with engineering teams and teams at the customers working very tightly together - some of the discussions happen in meetings somewhere, where it's harder to stay on top of what's happening
[17:21] <jono> sabdfl, exactly
[17:21] <jono> and, this may seem harsh, I feel it is an epidemic in our community
[17:21] <sabdfl> dholbach, it's still by far the easiest way to actually participate in a real phone project
[17:21] <YokoZar> More broadly though I would raise the question of whether distributions themselves are as interesting as they used to be.  We might just be part of a general trend of development moving towards other things
[17:21] <jono> yes, Canonical does have leadership on some projects, but it is a small proportion of the wider Ubuntu commons
[17:22] <sabdfl> jono, yes, i think it "became acceptable" and then "became normal" to blame canonical
[17:22] <jono> agreed
[17:22] <dholbach> sabdfl, absolutely - and I wasn't blaming anyone
[17:22] <mhall119> there is some legitimacy though, if we only accept contributions if they're on the approved roadmap, and the community doesn't know what that roadmap is and wasn't involve in creating it, they don't know what they *can* contribute
[17:22] <sabdfl> mhall119 's essay on the competitive sledging approach for poisoning projects is spot on
[17:22] <jono> the difficult piece here is that I think we need our governance to help change this culture
[17:22] <jono> Canonical members can't do this or it is seen as bias
[17:22] <sabdfl> well, that's again the issue with governance and leadership
[17:23] <sabdfl> to me, governance is about maintaining fairness
[17:23] <jono> ahhh good point, I guess I am conflating governance and leadership
[17:23] <mhall119> yes
[17:23] <czajkowski> yes
[17:23] <jono> but I think I am doing that because I feel our governance should have that leadership position
[17:23] <sabdfl> so, let's talk about leadership
[17:23] <YokoZar> yes
[17:23] <czajkowski> and while similar not everyone neds to be in governance but anyone can get more involved  and lead :)
[17:23] <popey> One thing Core Apps has done is make it more personal. It's not "Canonical" that impose restrictions on what you can do with Content-hub, it's "Ken", it's "Jamie" that you go for security.
[17:23] <jono> sure
[17:23] <sabdfl> two scenarios
[17:24] <mhall119> jono: governments rarely lead
[17:24] <popey> I realise this doesn't fully scale, but it makes a difference when you have people talking to people, and it isn't just seen as contributors blocked by The Man.
[17:24] <sabdfl>  1. bright young person with brilliant idea steps up to convince folks to try something new
[17:24] <sabdfl>  2. toxic person with agenda steps up to convince folks to take a particular approach
[17:24] <sabdfl> both are, in effect, leadership
[17:24] <sabdfl> and the interesting problem i think we have to consider is:
[17:24] <sabdfl>  * how do we welcome leadership of what is a very valuable community
[17:25] <sabdfl>  * while at the same time being willing to call BS on the toxic type, which WILL show up because it's a lot more fun to steer a lot of people to your agenda than start from scratch
[17:25] <jono> I think the first step is clearly defining the parameters of where people can lead and influence
[17:25] <sabdfl> i think it's a very interesting question indeed, and thanks jono for making us think about it
[17:26] <jono> I think the malaise from the trolls has created an atmosphere of a restrictive environment, which is not true
[17:26] <jono> which is why I suggested an impact constitution
[17:26] <jono> thanks sabdfl, I care about our future
[17:27] <jono> I think maybe the CC could help paint a clear picture of the many ways in which participation can happen
[17:27] <mhall119> for the first one, I think we need a way to award (socially) the current leaders, and more importantly find replacements for them. Too often once we find a leader we run keep them in place until they burnout
[17:27] <jono> mhall119, well, and some leaders are not really "leaders"
[17:27] <jono> they are just "most interested in becoming leaders"
[17:27] <highvoltage> that's a very important nail you're hitting right on the head there mhall119
[17:27] <jono> but this is an age old problem all communities have
[17:28] <sabdfl> succession is also interesting
[17:28] <sabdfl> but let's focus on how we can ensure that ubuntu is a place where people can *start* things
[17:28] <mhall119> so, since highvoltage is here I'll take him as an example, he and stgraber have been the only reason Edubuntu is still a think since *I* started getting involved in Ubuntu, there's nobody to take over for them if they have to step down
[17:28] <jono> agreed
[17:29] <jono> do we feel that painting a picture of the many places people can participate is a good step
[17:29] <pleia2> jono: +1
[17:29] <sabdfl> my view is things have their time, if there's no drive to continue them, it's best to accept that their time has passed
[17:29] <highvoltage> No.
[17:29] <jono> ...ok
[17:29] <jono> highvoltage, no to what?
[17:30] <pleia2> jono: a few weeks ago I believed we did this (with community.ubuntu.com), but discussions since on the mailing list made me realize that apparently it's not good enough
[17:30] <jono> pleia2, I wonder whether that is because we need to condense the information into a short list
[17:31] <highvoltage> jono: it doesn't necessarilly imply that their time has passed. some projects within ubuntu just get very little exposure to newcommers. if you visit a canonical page on community and how to get involved, it's *full* of whatever's important to canonical right now (typically phone / cloud stuff)
[17:31] <jono> this is why I thought of the impact constitution, essentially 10 or 20 places where people can contribute - this could be easily shared on social media, in posters, and elsewhere
[17:31] <highvoltage> jono: things outside of that scope tend to look boring by comparison, but it doesn't mean that they're not important.
[17:31] <jono> as opposed to the larger website - c.u.c could just present more detail
[17:31] <pleia2> jono: unfortunately I see it both ways, people wanting a "short list" and people saying there's not enough information, I don't know which way to go, or what will help (which is why it was nice to see some newcomers on the thread who could perhaps guide us to what would be useful)
[17:32] <jono> highvoltage, I disagree
[17:32] <sabdfl> highvoltage, it's a good idea to list more things there
[17:32] <sabdfl> but
[17:32] <jono> highvoltage, I think Canonical are just better at encouraging participation
[17:32] <sabdfl> being on a list of things does not make one interesting
[17:32] <sabdfl> say you are inspired by telephone
[17:32] <jono> highvoltage, some things do just become stale and less interesting to people
[17:32] <sabdfl> being active in places (forums, lists, discourse, etc) focused on THAT is a good way to attract people
[17:33] <jono> and some things reduce in participation because there is no inspiration
[17:33] <highvoltage> jono: indeed, ideally who care about the cause should ideally have more time to lobby (or do whatever) to get it listed there and get more exposure.
[17:33] <dholbach> pleia2, yes, I think that's one of the things could try to improve - make it livelier, more inviting, better explain how you can have a chat with team members before starting a duplicated effort, but not to wait for somebody's approval to start doing something new, etc - making it more inviting, maybe have a couple of videos there would also help to convey how we work together (set the tone so to speak)
[17:33] <jono> highvoltage, well, I think inspiration is the key - the greatest communities have people who help to translate the micro contribution to the macro impact
[17:33] <sabdfl> highvoltage, i'd say the best way to get people into edubuntu is to be active in places where people who care about education hang out
[17:33] <jono> boy, that sounded buzzword
[17:33] <jono> sorry about that :-)
[17:33] <pleia2> hehe
[17:33] <sabdfl> but true , jono :)
[17:34] <jono> :-)
[17:34] <highvoltage> jono: no problem, I agree with both you and sabdfl on that
[17:34] <pleia2> dholbach: yeah
[17:34] <mhall119> so if somebody new comes along and says "How can I contribute?", those of us already contributing should be able to give an answer
[17:34] <jono> so it sounds like we are identifying (1) clarity of places to contribute and (2) visibility of these places as key goals
[17:34] <sabdfl> i think jono was driving at a deeper point, which is that free software continues to be a focus of innovation, but ubuntu hasn't been at the centre of those efforts
[17:35] <mhall119> I like the idea of listing areas where people can contribute, but that should be a resource for us, not necessarily for new people
[17:35] <sabdfl> there are some interesting examples, jono, that perhaps shed light on this
[17:35] <sabdfl> one is docker
[17:35] <jono> right
[17:35] <mhall119> "go read this list" isn't a way to contribute, it's the community version of RTFM
[17:35] <sabdfl> it's not an ubuntu project, but boy, is ubuntu the standard over there!
[17:35] <sabdfl> for now at least :)
[17:35] <sabdfl> it's an interesting question whether perhaps we failed to make room for someone to lead various parts of that IN ubuntu
[17:36] <YokoZar> Docker is an interesting example actually
[17:36] <sabdfl> but i think part of their story is in fact being cross-platform, and being IN ubuntu might have made that harder not easier
[17:36] <YokoZar> Because maybe contributing docker containers is more interesting to people who 5 years ago might have been contributing to Ubuntu directly
[17:36] <sabdfl> right
[17:36] <jono> agreed
[17:36] <sabdfl> though it's a little like contributing AMIs.... thanks for the giant unauditable blob!
[17:36] <jono> well, there is innovation for Ubuntu and innovation that is on Ubuntu
[17:36] <sabdfl> packaging is hard, but the hard work means:
[17:36] <sabdfl>  * people know it's built from source
[17:37] <sabdfl>  * it's easy to integrate with the rest of the system
[17:37] <sabdfl> making a docker image is easy, and does neither of the above
[17:37] <sabdfl> but being easy, it's taken off like crazy
[17:37] <mhall119> sabdfl: perhaps Ubuntu itself is being shifted from being the ends to being the means to an end
[17:37] <sabdfl> and ubuntu is at the middle of that though not lead from ubuntu
[17:37] <sabdfl> yeah
[17:37] <sabdfl> here's an even more interesting example
[17:37] <sabdfl> anybody heard of ROS?
[17:38] <mhall119> which one is that?
[17:38] <dholbach> although the flow of the meeting feels a bit disrupted, I really like how everyone is bringing in ideas and problems related to the fields they're involved in - this is really great to see. maybe we could (after the meeting) try to use an etherpad to note down what we feel are common issues, or things we'd like to fix - no matter if it's a general fix or something in your area of involvement?
[17:38] <sabdfl> :)
[17:38] <YokoZar> Robot operating system
[17:38] <YokoZar> Based on Ubuntu
[17:38] <jono> the robot thing?
[17:38] <sabdfl> yeah
[17:38] <jono> I love that
[17:38] <sabdfl> Open Source Robotics Foundation
[17:38] <mhall119> is that why all the robotics videos show Ubuntu on screen?
[17:38] <sabdfl> pretty much, i think, mhall119
[17:38] <sabdfl> so, it's really interesting
[17:38] <sabdfl> non-profit group that's basically making it easy for robotics researchers and developers to share stuff
[17:38] <sabdfl> it's moving too fast for traditional packaging
[17:39] <sabdfl> it's like github-for-robot-people
[17:39] <sabdfl> but
[17:39] <sabdfl> it's all based on ubuntu
[17:39] <jono> this is precisely where I feel Ubuntu has the opportunity - becoming the go-to platform for people to build interesting technology
[17:39] <sabdfl> it's like "install ubuntu then type this command to bring in the shared source before you work on your app"
[17:39] <jono> right
[17:39] <mhall119> jono: which gets back to Ubuntu being the means, not the end. People don't contribute to a hammer, but they can contribute with one
[17:39] <sabdfl> the reason i think this example is interesting is because i think it's a counter to the "sky is falling in" view
[17:40] <jono> mhall119, well, yes and no
[17:40] <sabdfl> it's just that these projects are not at ubuntu.com/foo
[17:40] <YokoZar> mhall119: a good problem to have in some sense.  There was a time when we couldn't hammer ;)
[17:40] <jono> mhall119, a community could help Ubuntu to be the best platform for robotics
[17:40] <sabdfl> how many developers have contributed click packages? 200?
[17:40] <mhall119> YokoZar: I agree, I don't think it's a bad thing, it just means we need to change our focus
[17:40] <jono> to create a sub-community that maintains packages, create docs, organizing online events and more
[17:40] <mhall119> sabdfl: a little over, yes
[17:41] <sabdfl> how many linux distributions have 200 active contributors?
[17:41] <mhall119> interestingly we have almost as many click package developers as we have Ubuntu Developers
[17:41] <sabdfl> indeed
[17:41] <sabdfl> fresh territory, fresh space
[17:41] <jono> mhall119, that is near
[17:41] <jono> neat
[17:41] <jono> so the technology is pretty much there
[17:41] <sabdfl> also, fewer rules, fewer metadatas, fewer interlocks
[17:42] <jono> we just need to reboot the fact that Ubuntu really is a commons
[17:42] <sabdfl> in tech, almost everything else has gotten easier
[17:42] <jono> and not the Canonical prison some people make it out to be
[17:42] <sabdfl> it's easier to get a server today than 2004 (thanks cloud!)
[17:42] <sabdfl> it's easier to sell an app than in 2004 (thanks app store!)
[17:43] <sabdfl> it's easier to publish server side software (thanks paas!)
[17:43] <sabdfl> but
[17:43] <sabdfl> it's still damn hard to create a good debian package
[17:43] <YokoZar> there's a reason so much engineering has been about avoiding packaging systems
[17:43] <sabdfl> and while we measure participation much more broadly
[17:43] <highvoltage> but it's drastically easier! (thanks dh 7?) (sorry couldn't resist)
[17:43] <YokoZar> (even our own -- click packages are only barely debs)
[17:43] <elfy> evening all - got in late - just caught up
[17:43] <elfy> have a comment to make :)
[17:44] <mhall119> welcome elfy
[17:44] <sabdfl> the engine of that participation (advocacy, loco, docs, translation, etc etc) is always "here's a useful thing" made up of packages
[17:44] <sabdfl> dive in elfy
[17:44] <jono> hi elfy
[17:44] <elfy> I've just read 45 minutes of people talking about how to contribute by coding - apart from one sentence from sabdfl
[17:44] <sabdfl> phew
[17:44] <jono> elfy, I don't think we all meant coding
[17:44] <elfy> now I know that the majority of you do that - so that's going to be where you'll be looking
[17:45] <elfy> jono: that's how it reads :)
[17:45] <jono> I certainly didn't mean coding :-)
[17:45]  * mhall119 has some anecdotes to bring up about designers
[17:45] <jono> I meant BBQ
[17:45] <jono> :-)
[17:45] <elfy> lol
[17:45] <elfy> don't I've not eaten since yesterday ;)
[17:45] <elfy> mhall119: even design - similar to coding
[17:46] <mhall119> not if you ask a designer (or coder) ;)
[17:46] <elfy> so - from where I'm sitting - this discussion on how to contribute would already have turned me off
[17:46] <elfy> while we ALL know that the support side is there for whoever - and wherever people can do so
[17:46] <jono> elfy, I think we would all agree that participation is multi-disciplined
[17:47] <elfy> and THAT is a low bar to *acceptable* contributions to *buntu - it gets forgotten every time :)
[17:47] <jono> but the conclusions we are coming to here are (1) we have the technology (2) Ubuntu is just the end but the means too (3) we are seeing a general decline and (4) we should focus our efforts on helping people to see the wider Ubuntu commons and how they can participate
[17:48] <elfy> so I'm mostly talking about getting into (4) then
[17:48] <jono> I really do feel a key thing here is getting rid of the toxicity of "Canonical runs the show"
[17:48] <jono> elfy, same here :-)
[17:48] <mhall119> jono: I don't agree with (3), I don't think we have enough data to say there has been a "general" decline
[17:48] <elfy> jono: agree with that :)
[17:49] <jono> mhall119, observational data suggests we have lower participation
[17:49] <elfy> mhall119: I see a general decline in the main areas I contribute
[17:49] <highvoltage> jono: maybe I'm wrong for feeling that toxicity but often, and repeatedly, that has been my honest experience in ubuntu
[17:49] <jono> highvoltage, well, I think we should be frank in where Canonical control does and doesn't exist
[17:49] <jono> in my view, Canonical is leading the way in Mir, Unity, Juju as three key projects
[17:50] <jono> but the archive is open
[17:50] <jono> the app store is open
[17:50] <jono> and *anyone* can help build new technology and do cool things
[17:50] <jono> so while I agree that if you want to hack on Unity 8 you are going to really need to fit within an already defined roadmap, that is a tiny % of the overall Ubuntu commons
[17:50] <Riddell> Canonical claims to control distribution of binary packages which is incorrect and very poisonous
[17:51] <jono> Riddell, not true
[17:51] <highvoltage> jono: I literally cried when there was an Ubuntu One session in 2009 and the session started by "We're going to get Ubuntu One into the installer and it's already been decided internally and there will be no further discussion on this." - so if that type of thing continues you have to acknowledge that Canonical calls the shots on some things and be open to that. I think it's unfair to call peop
[17:51] <Riddell> yes it is
[17:51] <highvoltage> le toxic who calls that out.
[17:51] <pleia2> elfy: fwiw, I'm also interested in building up interest in our existing "non-exciting" and non-coding communities within ubuntu
[17:51] <jono> Riddell, no, that discussion was about fairness
[17:51] <mhall119> Riddell: it's a complicated topic that isn't the focus of discussion right now, can it wait until after we get through this?
[17:51] <jono> fairness of how infrastructure and resources are utilized
[17:51] <sabdfl> highvoltage, yes, we do call the shots on some things, and occasionally we get it wrong
[17:51] <elfy> pleia2: ;)
[17:52] <pleia2> even with cool robot projects, we need people to do manual QA on a variety of hardware... actually, this is PARTICULARLY needed with cool robot projects!
[17:52] <sabdfl> this discussion is about how we make space for more leadership in new areas, not how we punish leadership
[17:52] <jono> highvoltage, right, but that was a *long* time ago at the beginning of figuring out the company/community relationship
[17:52] <jono> let it go, dude :-)
[17:52] <Riddell> mhall119: it's hightly relevant if you're talking about why people might get off contributing to ubuntu
[17:52] <sabdfl> if you want more leadership, you have to accept that people will make decisions and occasionally they will get them wrong
[17:52] <jono> agreed
[17:52] <jono> the Ubuntu history is not perfect
[17:53] <YokoZar> highvoltage: Yeah, we've been atoning for that sin ever since as a project.  It's bad community and bad software development process.  And I believe we're unlikely to repeat it.
[17:53] <jono> but we are human beings
[17:53] <dholbach> pleia2, elfy: agreed :)
[17:53] <mhall119> Riddell: we aren't talking currently about why people are getting off of contributing
[17:53] <jono> and we need to stop harking on the past and focus on the future
[17:53] <highvoltage> oh there are plenty of more recent examples of that. I chose that because it was the first time it stung so hard
[17:53] <sabdfl> highvoltage, whoa, stop, i don't think your conclusions from that exercise are correct at all
[17:53] <sabdfl> it looks increasingly likely that the future of EVERY major platform involves an on and offline identity
[17:53] <sabdfl> every major platform
[17:54] <sabdfl> people want to contribute to things that will be successful
[17:54] <mhall119> so, using the Robot OS as an example, why can't they make that contribution within the Ubuntu project? (not necessarily within the archive, just within the community project)
[17:54] <sabdfl> and you're upset that someone one once suggested that ubuntu should be in the lead, rather than meekly waiting for every other platform to validate an idea?
[17:54] <sabdfl> nut
[17:54] <sabdfl> s
[17:55] <jono> I agree with sabdfl
[17:55] <sabdfl> leadership is hard precisely because it involves going into territory that undefined or awkward
[17:55] <jono> and in any case it was *five years ago*
[17:55] <sabdfl> we cannot sit here and want to attract leaders while at the same time harping on cases where leadership itself was unpopular
[17:55] <sabdfl> in that case, the goal was not even wrong
[17:55] <jono> we have all learning and grown in give years
[17:55] <jono> five
[17:55] <highvoltage> telling the comm
[17:55] <highvoltage> (sorry)
[17:56] <sabdfl> if you want ubuntu to be limited to things you like, you're not going to be happy
[17:56] <sabdfl> same goes for me, frankly
[17:56] <highvoltage> The mistake there didn't have anything to do with Ubuntu One itself, imho the mistake was to say that a controversial decision in Ubuntu has been made internally, at Canonical, and that no firther discussion on it will be allowed.
[17:56] <mhall119> it's fair to ask that everbody be allowed to participate in the discussion that leads to those choices though
[17:57] <jono> highvoltage, that just isn't true
[17:57] <sabdfl> mhall119, well, i suspect part of the ROS question is that they wanted to set up an institution, and instititions needs to lead things
[17:57] <jono> there *was* discussion, there was discourse
[17:57] <jono> but ultimately Canonical did make a decision
[17:57] <sabdfl> i'm not upset that it's not under the auspices of the CC
[17:57] <jono> and that is going to happen from time to time
[17:57] <jono> this is how the relationship between companies and communities sometimes work
[17:57] <mhall119> sabdfl: that doesn't necessarily exclude them from working within the project
[17:57] <cp1> And speaking of hard, I think Ubuntu needs to do more about contributing to Debian.  Debian has some problems now and if Ubuntu had more leadership in the area of contributing back to Debian it could be win win for both!
[17:57] <jono> but you are talking about a tiny fragment of Ubuntu
[17:58] <highvoltage> jono: hey, I was there, and that was exactly what was said in the beginning of a UDS session, but hey, I don't want to harp on that specific issue either, it was just an example of how you can't say that it's toxic of people to say that canonical sometimes calls the shots
[17:58] <sabdfl> highvoltage, if the people who are going to do the work have made a decision, that's binding, even if none of them work for canonical
[17:58] <dholbach> I'm not sure we're going to get a lot more out of this meeting at this point. Can we set up an Etherpad in which we feed concrete ideas, plans and work items?
[17:58] <sabdfl> highvoltage, this would be the very definition of harping
[17:58] <highvoltage> jono: because the fact is that canonical does often call the shots within ubuntu, and as you said earlier, it's good to have that defined
[17:58] <jono> highvoltage, this is an example of the problem
[17:58] <sabdfl> leadership is precisely about making decisions
[17:58]  * YokoZar has to go now -- thanks very much to everyone who showed up, and would like to discuss it further.
[17:58] <pleia2> dholbach: yeah
[17:59] <jono> we are trying to find new ways to inspire and motivate our community and you are derailing it with a conversation five years ago when we were all younger and stupider than we are now
[17:59] <sabdfl> the reason people create splits and forks and sub-projects is *so they can make decisions*
[17:59] <jono> we all made mistakes back then
[17:59] <jono> the intentions were good, but the execution was not perfect
[17:59] <mhall119> dholbach: http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion
[17:59] <sabdfl> and if they can't do that inside a project (because it will be unpopular and their day will be full of shit) then they go do it somewhere else
[17:59] <jono> but lets focus on the future instead of getting dragged back by the past
[17:59] <pleia2> thanks mhall119
[17:59] <dholbach> thanks a lot mhall119
[18:00] <sabdfl> well, jono, i agree that occasionally a decision being taken is perceived as abrasive
[18:00] <jono> lets crisply define where Canonical does lead, and then promote the vast array of places where the community can lead
[18:00] <dholbach> I would suggest we all do a bit of homework and add our thoughts and things we'd be interested and willing to work on into http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion
[18:00] <sabdfl> but if you tolerate intolerance of decisions, you end up a mess
[18:00] <sabdfl> i don't think we should accept a browbeating over decisiveness, for ANY leader in Ubuntu, canonical or otherwise
[18:01] <jono> agreed
[18:01] <sabdfl> or we'll not solve the core question at hand, which is how we encourage folks to do there leading HERE
[18:01] <sabdfl> their, even
[18:01] <jono> focus on previous discussions is good if we fail forward
[18:01] <jono> but the blame game doesn't help anyone
[18:01] <jono> I personally thought the focus on KDE4 wasn't wise, but I am not going to berate KDE leadership for it :-)
[18:01] <sabdfl> if it's OK to piss on my leadership, or yours, or canonical's, then frankly nobody is going to want to be a leader in the project for something new
[18:02] <jono> instead it is better for us to work together to pull away conclusions for how we can do better
[18:02] <elfy> sabdfl: absolutely
[18:03] <Riddell> jono: what focus on KDE4?
[18:03] <jono> Riddell, we can discuss this later, it is off topic
[18:03] <dholbach> I'll drop an email to ubuntu-community-team@ with the logs to the meeting and the etherpad.
[18:04] <elfy> dholbach: thanks
[18:04] <dholbach> It'd be good if we could revisit the notes afterwards again and see who wants to team up on tackling some of the things mentioned.
[18:04] <mhall119> thanks dholbach
[18:05] <pleia2> thanks dholbach
[18:06] <jono> thanks everyone, I better run
[18:06] <dholbach> All right... is there any other business anyone wanted to bring up?
[18:06] <dholbach> #topic Any other business?
[18:06] <highvoltage> wasn't the EC catchup scheduled for tonight?
[18:07] <Riddell> dholbach: an update on the status of the claims over binary files would be appreciated
[18:07] <mhall119> everybody please feel free to contibute to the Etherpad or further discussion on the mailing list
[18:07] <mhall119> Riddell: we are still inquiring after that
[18:07]  * balloons just walks in
[18:08] <dholbach> balloons, too late :)
[18:08] <balloons> dholbach, I noticed.. what a discussion!
[18:08] <elfy> highvoltage: it was - I mailed both Edubuntu and Lubuntu postponing on the 20th November
[18:08] <balloons> I'll take to the pad
[18:08] <highvoltage> elfy: ah sorry, I missed that. all good then.
[18:08] <dholbach> thanks a lot everyone
[18:08] <dholbach> mail sent: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2014-December/000213.html
[18:09] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[18:09] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  4 18:09:02 2014 UTC.
[18:09] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-17.04.moin.txt
[18:09] <elfy> highvoltage: moved to the April some time
[18:09] <mhall119> thanks everybody for all of the thoughts and feedback
[18:09] <mhall119> please help us boil this down into things we can implement
[18:09] <elfy> thanks everyone
[18:10] <highvoltage> yes thanks, I hope that jono and sabdfl can see that my comments are meant to be constructive, I don't mean to attack or anything like that.
[18:10] <mhall119> jono: can you flesh out what an Impact Constitution would define on the Etherpad (line 21 currently)
[18:11]  * mhall119 enjoys being able to ask jono to flesh things out for a change
[18:11] <popey> highvoltage: might have been more constructive if you'd had an example from this decade ㋛
[18:11] <jono> mhall119, LOL
[18:11] <jono> will do
[18:11] <jono> thanks, all
[18:11] <jono> highvoltage, :-)
[18:12] <sabdfl> cheerio all
[18:15] <highvoltage> popey: noted, I'll stick to this decade for future references
[18:15]  * popey hugs highvoltage 
[18:16] <Riddell> highvoltage, popey: where was this?
[18:16] <highvoltage> popey: it was from like, 5 years after I joined Ubuntu, on my timeline it doesn't feel like ancient history, but I acknowledge that it wasn't quite recent and won't bring it up again
[18:16] <popey> Riddell: I was making light of a heavyweight discussion earlier.
[18:16] <popey> highvoltage: I'm not trying to shut you up, it was just a joke :)(
[18:17] <highvoltage> popey: ah ok :)
[18:17] <jono> typical Canonical staff shutting us community members down
[18:18] <popey>  /kick jono
[18:18] <jono> :-)
[18:21] <highvoltage> In all honesty, I think you guys are doing a great job, but some of the problems, like the innovational problems mentioned tonight, happen exactly because of some problems that seem to be in your blind spot (or refuse to acknlowledge), but I'd rather send an email in private about that than disucss it on IRC, where every single line is just way far too open to be interpreted the wrong way
[18:23] <pleia2> thanks highvoltage
[20:21] <benonsoftware>  /e
[20:21] <benonsoftware> Oops, sorry
[21:30] <belkinsa> OerHeks, are you ready for the meeting in 30 minutes for your Membership?
[21:30] <OerHeks> Hi belkinsa yes i am.
[21:31] <belkinsa> Perfect.  I hope we have enough Board Members for this one.
[21:35] <Cugel> Hello, people.
[21:35] <belkinsa> o/ Cugel.
[21:35] <Fermata> People of Ubuntu o/
[21:35] <OerHeks> Hi Cugel & Fermata
[21:45] <hggdh> !rmb -- meeting in 13 minutes
[21:46] <hggdh> bloody hell
[21:47] <belkinsa> !rmb
[21:47] <belkinsa> Guys, meeting is in 13 minutes!
[21:48] <hggdh> heh
[21:48] <belkinsa> !cc
[21:48] <belkinsa> WTF, no CC factiod?
[21:48] <hggdh> hah, so much for consistency ;-)
[21:49] <pleia2> belkinsa: tsk, language
[21:49] <pleia2> what do you need?
[21:49] <belkinsa> Sorry.  We may need you guys for the 22 UTC Memberboard meeting
[21:49] <hggdh> pleia2: it seems we will need backing up for the RMB meeting in a few
[21:49] <belkinsa> Membership Board*
[21:49] <pleia2> ah sure, I'm around
[21:49] <belkinsa> We need two more, right?
[21:49] <hggdh> one more
[21:50] <belkinsa> Oh, duh.
[21:50] <belkinsa> I will chair.
[21:50] <hggdh> four is the minimum quorum
[21:50] <hggdh> k
[21:50] <hggdh> (and thank you ;-)
[21:50] <pleia2> if no one shows up in 10 minutes, I'll msg some other CC members
[21:50] <belkinsa> Okay, thank you, pleia2.
[21:50] <belkinsa> OerHeks is here but  OscarPrieto is not.
[21:51] <belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards#A22:00
[21:54] <belkinsa> !rmb
[21:54] <belkinsa> Meeting in 5 minutes.
[21:54] <belkinsa> Well, that factiod needs to be updated.
[21:55]  * popey waves
[21:55] <czajkowski> aloha
[21:55] <belkinsa> Thanks, popey for coming.
[21:55] <czajkowski> I'm here if you need numbers
[21:55] <belkinsa> Okay, we have five now.  Three Membership Board members and two CC ones.
[21:57] <belkinsa> oscarprieto, are you ready for the Membershio Board meeting?
[21:57] <OerHeks> Hi glad you made it oscarprieto
[21:57] <belkinsa> And if there is anyone for these two (as in for cheering on), you are welcome to the meeting.
[21:57] <oscarprieto> Yes.
[21:57] <belkinsa> Perfect, we will start in 2 minutes.
[21:58] <oscarprieto> Excelent
[21:58] <oscarprieto> I change mi nick
[21:59] <belkinsa> Okay, starting now...
[21:59] <belkinsa> #startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting
[21:59] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  4 21:59:41 2014 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[21:59] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:00] <belkinsa> #voters belkinsa pleia2 czajkowski popey hggdh
[22:00] <meetingology> Current voters: belkinsa czajkowski hggdh pleia2 popey
[22:00] <belkinsa> #votesrequired 4
[22:00] <meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
[22:00]  * czajkowski waves hi and welcome :) 
[22:00] <popey> yo yo
[22:00] <belkinsa> Hello and welcome to the 22 UTC Membership Board meeting on this fine Thursday.
[22:01] <belkinsa> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
[22:01] <ofprieto> belkinsa:  this is my nick official
[22:01] <belkinsa> Okay.
[22:01] <belkinsa> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
[22:01] <belkinsa> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
[22:01] <belkinsa> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
[22:01] <belkinsa>  During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
[22:01] <belkinsa> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
[22:02] <belkinsa> #subtopic OerHeks
[22:02] <belkinsa> Are you ready, OerHeks?
[22:02] <OerHeks> Yes belkinsa
[22:02] <belkinsa> Please introduce yourself to the board.
[22:03] <OerHeks> Goodevening all, My name is OerHeks, 47 years old, from The Netherlands and an ubuntu user for 5 years now.
[22:04] <OerHeks> I am a fulll opensource user, and i would like to share my experience and knowledge with anyone who needs it.
[22:05] <popey> hi OerHeks
[22:05] <OerHeks> Therefore i am daily reading, learning and helping othere users mostly on IRC channels with questions and problems.
[22:06] <belkinsa> OerHeks, may we have your Launchpad and wiki page link?
[22:06] <belkinsa> #voters PabloRubianes
[22:06] <meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes belkinsa czajkowski hggdh pleia2 popey
[22:06]  * Ingforigua greetings
[22:06] <popey> OerHeks: what a lovely set of endorsements you have on your wiki page.
[22:06] <OerHeks> I am a member of the Mwanzo team too, the team that is made to help learning and get around in the ubuntu community. my launchpad url is https://launchpad.net/~oerheks
[22:06] <pleia2> belkinsa: you have RMB quorum, I'll step out :)
[22:07] <belkinsa> pleia2, alright
[22:07] <OerHeks> And here is my personal wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/oerheks
[22:07]  * trijntje_ is here to support OerHeks 
[22:07] <Fermata> Stefan de Vries hier, waving for OerHeks \o/ \o/
[22:07] <popey> what does Mwanzo mean?
[22:07] <popey> thanks trijntje_
[22:07] <popey> Fermata: thanks also!
[22:07] <belkinsa> Does the supporters have anything to say about him?
[22:07] <OerHeks> Mwanzo is Swahili for Begin.
[22:08] <popey> Oh nice.
[22:08] <popey> What does the team do exactly? Got examples?
[22:08] <OerHeks> We have a Dutch written page, maybe your browser has a translation feature > http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/mwanzo/
[22:08] <popey> thanks
[22:08] <czajkowski> OerHeks: lovely comments on your wiki page
[22:08] <czajkowski> nice work
[22:09] <Fermata> He is the most visible person in #ubuntu-nl channels.  Helping and making people's experience better.  A true gem.
[22:09] <czajkowski> that's a loverly thing to hear about your team mates
[22:09] <trijntje_> like I wrote in my testimonial on the wiki (redmar), he's always around on irc to help, and is very knowledgeable about hardware
[22:09] <popey> Yeah, I have no other questions.
[22:09] <genii> I also would like to put in a good work for OerHeks
[22:10] <czajkowski> OerHeks: sounds like you're really a great champion for your community
[22:10] <OerHeks> We are providing workshops, not that much at the moment, have an own askubuntu , http://vraag.ubuntu-nl.org/ and help peaple howto contribute to ubuntu/ubuntu-nl
[22:10] <czajkowski> it's lovely to read about these things thank you
[22:10] <czajkowski> for your work in the comunity and for being involved
[22:10] <belkinsa> Does anyone have anymore questions?   Or are we ready to vote?
[22:10] <hggdh> I am ready
[22:10] <czajkowski> none here
[22:10] <czajkowski> thanks
[22:11] <belkinsa> #vote OerHeks's Membership
[22:11] <meetingology> Please vote on: OerHeks's Membership
[22:11] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:11] <popey> +1
[22:11] <meetingology> +1 received from popey
[22:11] <hggdh> +1
[22:11] <meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
[22:11] <belkinsa> +1 Awesome work, keep it up!
[22:11] <meetingology> +1 Awesome work, keep it up! received from belkinsa
[22:11] <czajkowski> +1 well done thank you!
[22:11] <meetingology> +1 well done thank you! received from czajkowski
[22:11] <belkinsa> Should we wait for PabloRubianes?
[22:11] <PabloRubianes> +!
[22:11] <PabloRubianes> +1
[22:11] <meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
[22:12] <popey> \o/
[22:12] <popey> Congratulations OerHeks !
[22:12] <hggdh> there you go :-)
[22:12] <OerHeks> Thank you !
[22:12] <belkinsa> #voteendeed
[22:12] <belkinsa> #endvote
[22:12] <meetingology> Voting ended on: OerHeks's Membership
[22:12] <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[22:12] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:12] <PabloRubianes> congrats OerHeks
[22:12] <popey> Thanks for coming Fermata trijntje_ !
[22:12] <Ingforigua> nice OerHeks :)
[22:12] <belkinsa> \o/, OerHeks!
[22:12] <SergioMeneses> congrats OerHeks
[22:12]  * trijntje_ cheers
[22:13] <Fermata> Congratulations, Oerheks!
[22:13] <Fermata> \o/
[22:13] <ofprieto> congrats OerHeks!
[22:13] <hggdh> OerHeks: congrats, and thank you for your work
[22:13] <belkinsa> #subtopic ofprieto
[22:13] <Fermata> And good luck, ofprieto.
[22:13] <belkinsa> ofprieto, are you ready?
[22:13] <ofprieto> yes, I am
[22:13] <SergioMeneses> go for it ofprieto
[22:13] <ofprieto> let me introduce myself
[22:13] <ofprieto> Good afternoon, I am Oscar Prieto, I am from Bogotá, Colombia. I am student of Systems engineering, but I am also a technician in supports systems. I am part of Ubuntu community for more than 4 years. I help with events, diffusion, support, and some translations. Right now I am member of the Ubuntu Colombia LoCo council. Here is my Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ofp.prieto And here is my Launchpad: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ofp
[22:14] <ofprieto> I have been working a lot in Ubuntu, you can see more information in my Wiki page.
[22:14] <popey> hi ofprieto
[22:14] <popey> You have nice teeth!
[22:15] <ofprieto> lol
[22:15] <hggdh> heh
[22:15] <belkinsa> lol
[22:15] <ofprieto> popey: and a big mouth jeje
[22:15] <Ingforigua> :P
[22:15] <popey> :D
[22:15] <belkinsa> Does anyone have questions for him or any comments?
[22:15] <popey> just reading...
[22:16] <popey> ofprieto: what do you do on SFD?
[22:16] <popey> (assume I have ignored your wiki page about it)
[22:16] <belkinsa> And what is your role in NetWorkBogota?
[22:17] <ofprieto> I had supported Ubuntu Stand, and help Ubuntu installations in that event
[22:17] <popey> Did you get much interest from the public?
[22:17] <SergioMeneses> belkinsa: ofprieto is the stand guy! :D
[22:18] <ofprieto> belkinsa:  Actually I have a node, and I am participating in the developer team of this idea, I supprot also the social media of this project.
[22:18] <Ingforigua> and one conference called ... i dont remember :P ofprieto
[22:18] <belkinsa> ofprieto, I see.
[22:18] <Ingforigua> network bogota is a free network as guifinet
[22:18] <ofprieto> belkinsa: NetWorkBogota is a project that had begun in Agust this year!
[22:19] <belkinsa> I se.e
[22:19] <mhall119> ofprieto: I see you're on the ubuntu-co council, what does that entail and how have you found the experience?
[22:19] <popey> SergioMeneses: you here to support ofprieto ?
[22:19] <hggdh> SergioMeneses: cheers, BTW
[22:20] <SergioMeneses> @popey yes sir! :)
[22:20] <meetingology> SergioMeneses: Error: "popey" is not a valid command.
[22:20] <SergioMeneses> hi hggdh
[22:20] <hggdh> oh boy, "popey" is not a valid command...
[22:20] <ofprieto> The Ubuntu-co council has been an excellent experiencie, we are working in our meeting for close the year, and I am leadering this activity
[22:21] <popey> hggdh: file a bug ☻
[22:21] <SergioMeneses> ofprieto: is an amazing guy, he works a lot with our community and I hope he work on the international community very soon with some project
[22:21] <hggdh> ofprieto: perfect, and thank you for your community work
[22:21] <popey> Thank you SergioMeneses
[22:21] <popey> I have no more questions
[22:21] <SergioMeneses> you're welcome guys!
[22:21] <ofprieto> mhall119: talking about social media, I am supporting this team of our community
[22:21] <mhall119> SergioMeneses: we had to remove the @popey command, it would randomly shut down mailinglists
[22:22] <belkinsa> lol
[22:22] <SergioMeneses> mhall119: o0
[22:22] <belkinsa> #vote ofprieto's Membership
[22:22] <meetingology> Please vote on: ofprieto's Membership
[22:22] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:22] <PabloRubianes> +1 buen trabajo!
[22:22] <belkinsa> +1 Keep up the great work!
[22:22] <meetingology> +1 Keep up the great work! received from belkinsa
[22:22] <meetingology> +1 buen trabajo! received from PabloRubianes
[22:22] <hggdh> +1
[22:22] <meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
[22:22] <popey> +1
[22:22] <meetingology> +1 received from popey
[22:23] <belkinsa> #endvote
[22:23] <meetingology> Voting ended on: ofprieto's Membership
[22:23] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[22:23] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:23] <popey> \o/
[22:23] <belkinsa> \o/
[22:23] <popey> Congratulations ofprieto !
[22:23] <Ingforigua> ofprieto: congrats some beers and b... :P
[22:23] <mhall119> congrats ofprieto
[22:23] <hggdh> ofprieto: bienvenido a la comunitat Ubuntu (and sorry for having butchered your language)
[22:23] <popey> I look forward to hearing about SFW 2015 in Colombia!
[22:23] <SergioMeneses> congrats ofprieto !
[22:23] <SergioMeneses> popey indeed!
[22:23] <belkinsa> Thank you all for coming to this meeting.
[22:23] <trijntje_> Congratulations ofprieto
[22:24] <PabloRubianes> felicitaciones ofprieto
[22:24]  * belkinsa passes out beer and cookies
[22:24] <Fermata> Congratulations, ofprieto!
[22:24] <belkinsa> #endmeeting
[22:24] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  4 22:24:20 2014 UTC.
[22:24] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-21.59.moin.txt
[22:24] <Ingforigua> popey: you should come to colombia, you are welcome here :P a lot of beer and bi...
[22:24] <OerHeks> Thank you all, congrats ofprieto , we are on the list > https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
[22:25] <trijntje_> Cheers, have a nice evening everybody
[22:25] <ofprieto>  I am very happy, thank you so much.
[22:25] <Cugel> Thanks all for getting these new members in.
[22:25] <Ingforigua> OerHeks: ofprieto beer for both :P
[22:25] <Cugel> Drinks for all.
[22:25] <popey> Ingforigua: I would _love_ to go to Colombia!
[22:25] <OerHeks> Cheers, bottoms up!
[22:25] <SergioMeneses> see you later guys! glad to see you, as always! :D
[22:25] <ofprieto> we are working for 2015 SFD, popey hope you come to Colombia!
[22:25] <Ingforigua> popey: greetings for colombia "Nos vemos parceros"
[22:26] <OerHeks> Have fun!
[22:26] <ofprieto> thanks so much team!!! Ingforigua linaporras Sergiomeneses
[22:27] <ofprieto> by all
[22:27] <Ingforigua> bye