[00:00] <bluesabre> dinner time, back in a bit
[00:00] <Unit193> Default didn't do this?
[00:01] <Unit193> Oh, well yeah xfsettingsd never paints it for me.
[00:03] <bluesabre> I think it used to be just one, functional one
[00:03] <bluesabre> now its just one dead one
[00:03] <ochosi> wait, xfsettingsd sets the root pixmap?
[00:04] <bluesabre> bbiab
[00:04] <Unit193> ochosi: I don't see why it would.  But it isn't now.
[00:04] <Unit193> bluesabre: Ah, so I did fix that, now it's one dead, one functional.
[00:04] <Unit193> Well, "fix".
[00:05]  * Unit193 wonders if he's off the hook now.
[00:15] <bluesabre> :)
[00:16] <bluesabre> so I'd be generally in favor or swapping it out instead of trying to figure out why it dies, unless you have any ideas?
[00:17] <ochosi> ehm, what sets the theme then if we "swap out" xfsettingsd?
[00:17] <ochosi> not sure why it's defunct and all, but it's clearly doing its job if we see greybird and not the gtk3 default theme in ubiquity, no?
[00:18] <ochosi> and i'm still not convinced that xfsettingsd has anything to do with setting the wallpaper
[00:18] <Unit193> ^
[00:18] <ochosi> iirc ubiquity used to cairo-paint it built-in
[00:18] <bluesabre> I think those may be controlled by ubiquity
[00:18] <ochosi> (but i might be misremembering that part)
[00:18] <ochosi> hm right
[00:18] <ochosi> i guess we have us some ubiquity code to read then :)
[00:19]  * Unit193 calls not it.
[00:19]  * bluesabre already did
[00:19] <ochosi> actually
[00:19] <bluesabre> ubiquity doesn't paint the desktop for us
[00:19] <ochosi> if it would set the theme, wouldn't i grep "Greybird" in it?
[00:20] <bluesabre> its in xubuntu-live-settings iirc
[00:20] <ochosi> ah
[00:20] <ochosi> k
[00:20] <bluesabre> sets some gsettings variables, and ubiquity grabs those
[00:20] <ochosi> guess i should shut up until i've read the code too :)
[00:20] <bluesabre> :)
[00:21] <ochosi> yeah, i thought that adding the gsettings var for the bg was enough and ubiquity would paint it
[00:21] <ochosi> that was probably a fake memory though
[00:22] <bluesabre> start here https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/view/head:/bin/ubiquity-dm#L366
[00:23] <Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/LInGit7mfbk7EE8L831y/ is what I use. :P
[00:24] <Unit193> Yeah, you can check for background_image, I've already looked through this. :P
[00:26]  * ochosi is busy looking for why and when the panel was disabled for xfwm4
[00:28] <bluesabre> my previous fix, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1375893/comments/4 now lines 404-407
[00:29] <ochosi> let's get that pushed then i guess, unless you wanna figure out why xfsettingsd is defunct
[00:29] <ochosi> btw, that bug should really be re-assigned to !xfdesktop (although i'm not sure what to)
[00:29] <Unit193> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/revision/5770
[00:31] <Unit193> bzr blame wont tell me the real one. :P
[00:32] <Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/FMJNzU5OLBcPzj9F3BZx see?
[00:32] <bluesabre> darn it blame
[00:33] <ochosi> yeah
[00:33] <ochosi> i know that already
[00:33] <ochosi> i'm still browsing the bzr history
[00:33] <Unit193> I wouldn't. :D
[00:33] <ochosi> no need for >1 of us to waste his time on this
[00:34] <Unit193> ochosi: 4185
[00:34] <ochosi> right
[00:34] <ochosi> so it was superm1 who disabled it
[00:35] <Unit193> ochosi: I'm faster? :D
[00:35] <ochosi> you are, but i hate bzr *more*
[00:35] <Unit193> ochosi: Are you sure?  I've converted a whole repo just to add a couple commits.
[00:35] <ochosi> so since superm1 said today that he was fine with re-enabling the panel as long as it works, we can go for it now
[00:36] <Unit193> Yep.
[00:36] <ochosi> as soon as that is re-enabled, i can add a custom background for us for the panel
[00:36] <ochosi> the default one stinks
[00:36] <ochosi> brb, running out of battery...
[00:36] <Unit193> Talk to xnox?
[00:36] <bluesabre> k
[00:36] <Unit193> And sure, I can request the merge when I get back home, no problem.
[00:40] <bluesabre> Unit193, cool
[00:40] <Unit193> bluesabre: Anything else I'm not remembering?
[00:42] <bluesabre> dunno... I think I might create a dev trello since I keep forgetting mini-tasks
[00:43]  * bluesabre reviews blueprints
[00:44] <bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] Evaluate the 14.10 decisions relative to default IRC client and decide action(s) for 15.04 release: TODO
[00:44] <bluesabre> I'm rather content to say we are fine without
[00:44] <bluesabre> but haven't heard much else
[00:48] <ochosi> yeah
[00:49] <ochosi> i'd tend to agree
[00:49] <ochosi> i mean we can always do a survey, but the question always remains how representative that'll be
[00:49] <ochosi> i'd say as long as googling "xubuntu xchat" doesn't turn up lots of heated comments, we're probably fine
[00:51] <bluesabre> I can toss it onto the agenda for tomorrow if you want to cover it
[00:51] <ochosi> i briefly investigated whether there is quantitative data of the ppl who connect to #xubuntu in terms of which client they use, but freenode doesn't collect that data anymore and didn't hold on to data collected on that previously
[00:51] <ochosi> yeah, we can formally cover it tomorrow
[00:52] <ochosi> if you add a dev-trello, please link it to the blueprint
[00:52] <ochosi> i actually wanted to go through the blueprints with you and everyone else at some point
[00:52] <ochosi> since you won't be at the meeting, we can quickly browse through devel now if you want
[00:52] <drc> If it was me, I wouldn't bother with a script or a poll, if no one comes here (irc) or the ML to complain I would keep the status quo :)
[00:53] <ochosi> drc: well, i'd have used the data if it had been readily available. i'm also not really convinced of polls
[00:53] <ochosi> not only because of being representative, but also in terms of the expectations it creates in participants
[00:53] <bluesabre> yup
[00:54] <drc> That's what I was getting at...more work than knowledge.
[00:54] <ochosi> did you get anywhere with panel-switch btw?
[00:54] <bluesabre> ochosi, Unit193, let's discuss now if you're around for a bit :)
[00:54] <bluesabre> ochosi: not yet
[00:54] <ochosi> we can also postpone that if it turns out we have enough work for 15.04
[00:54] <ochosi> not sure how much work it'd be
[00:54] <bluesabre> its just a matter of finding time lately
[00:54] <bluesabre> there's little enough to do
[00:54] <ochosi> haha, as always ;)
[00:54] <ochosi> that's the same for everyone
[00:55] <brainwash> bluesabre: I'm not sure, but logind-handle-lid-switch was set to "false" in trusty-updates and it's still set to "false" in utopic/vivid with the new xfpm 1.4 release
[00:55] <bluesabre> right, but I think the logic was flipped and wrong... its a confusing mess
[00:55] <ochosi> bluesabre: did "investigate reduction of gnome depends" have any concrete roadmap?
[00:55] <brainwash> wrong + wrong = right?
[00:55] <brainwash> :D
[00:55] <ochosi> yeah, sadly +1 on that 
[00:55] <bluesabre> wrong + wrong = NaN
[00:56] <bluesabre> is basically where we're at there ;)
[00:56] <bluesabre> ochosi: it was more or less, if we have any ideas there, we go for it
[00:56] <ochosi> ok
[00:56] <ochosi> so i'll flip that to "inprogress" then
[00:56] <ochosi> since it's sorta ongoing always
[00:57] <ochosi> same with "shared components"?
[00:57] <ochosi> or did you have something specific in mind
[00:57] <bluesabre> there were some suggestions for not-so-good alternatives
[00:57] <ochosi> as in?
[00:57] <bluesabre> they were just posted here, replacing games and the calc
[00:57] <ochosi> oh right
[00:58] <bluesabre> the safest thing would probably be transitioning to more mate components to reduce the headache of gnome upgrades
[00:58] <ochosi> probably
[00:58] <ochosi> although calc is actually still fine
[00:58] <bluesabre> yes
[00:58] <ochosi> just looked at it in vivid
[00:58] <bluesabre> the calc is generally A-OK
[00:58] <ochosi> but yeah, we'll have to wait until gtk3.14 hits us to be really sure...
[00:59] <bluesabre> whenever that finally lands... I feel like its taking longer than it really is :)
[00:59] <ochosi> there were discussions about calc maybe because of the CSDs
[01:00] <ochosi> but xfwm4 just received patches by ofourdan(!) to support that better
[01:00] <bluesabre> I don't mind the CSDs, they work well enough in xfce, and look better than hacking a toolbar back in
[01:00] <ochosi> yeah, absolutely
[01:00] <ochosi> while not being 100% consistent, it could be worse
[01:01] <ochosi> what about the lgg-settings to debian thingy being blocked?
[01:01] <bluesabre> its gotten better, I think gnome devs finally decided what they wanted to do with them, and the results are improved
[01:01] <bluesabre> lgg-settings being blocked is a matter of updating, then potentially uploading to debian (in-freeze), or just to ubuntu
[01:02] <ochosi> oh right
[01:02] <ochosi> actually there are so many pending merges by andrew, i've completely lost track of the greeter lately...
[01:02] <bluesabre> we should aid to review the lightdm-gtk-greeter merges, merge them in, do a dev release, and pushing that on to get tested
[01:02] <bluesabre> aid?
[01:02] <bluesabre> plan...
[01:02] <bluesabre> words failing
[01:02] <ochosi> heh
[01:02] <ochosi> i guess i was also too involved with other things to be able to focus on the greeter at all
[01:03] <ochosi> now i feel i don't know the codebase well enough anymore, because so much has changed
[01:03] <bluesabre> yeah
[01:03] <brainwash> is andrew still actively developing?
[01:03] <ochosi> yeah
[01:03] <bluesabre> yup
[01:03] <bluesabre> andrew kicks butt and keeps adding things... he toned it down a bit since we asked for stability
[01:04] <brainwash> so he'll fix bug 1398619 some day
[01:04] <bluesabre> I can fix that soon
[01:04] <brainwash> please do! :)
[01:04] <bluesabre> maybe one day this weekend, and include it in the next release
[01:04] <ochosi> sometimes i wish he would also work on other things, i guess i'm sorta done with what i wanted to achieve with the greeter...
[01:04] <knome> ochosi, maybe you can ask him to do so? :)
[01:05] <ochosi> knome: yeah, maybe maybe, there are so many things one could do with enough time. frankly i feel i'm juggling enough as it is ;)
[01:05] <knome> asking doesn't cost a lot of your time :)
[01:05] <ochosi> well no, but if i ask him, that will likely not be the end of it
[01:05] <ochosi> it is usually the beginning of a conversation
[01:06] <ochosi> either he has that idea himself, or he might need coaching/motivation
[01:08] <knome> :)
[01:11] <bluesabre> ochosi: anything else of interest?
[01:11] <ochosi> what's the bluez5 workitem about?
[01:11] <bluesabre> new bluez coming soon (maybe with gtk 3.14?)
[01:11] <ochosi> (sorry, distracted chatting to superm1 about mythbuntu and ubiquity...)
[01:11] <bluesabre> or with systemd
[01:11] <bluesabre> or something
[01:11] <ochosi> oh, is it?
[01:11] <bluesabre> something, somewhere
[01:12] <ochosi> these things are taking their time to land (again)
[01:12] <bluesabre> Noskcaj knows more in that area
[01:12] <bluesabre> its because debian is in freeze
[01:12] <ochosi> is there any experimental PPA we could use to test bluez5?
[01:12] <ochosi> just to prep ourselves a bit
[01:12] <bluesabre> Noskcaj or tim? has one somewhere
[01:13] <ochosi> that workitem is a bit fuzzy, that was mainly why i asked
[01:13] <ochosi> and actually testing from a PPA would've been what i'd have expected
[01:13] <ochosi> if a PPA is there already, all we need is a call for testing after some exploratory testing we do ourselves
[01:13] <bluesabre> it might have other dependencies, I just don't know enough there
[01:14] <ochosi> k, we can also assign it to Noskcaj btw
[01:14] <bluesabre> good idea
[01:14] <bluesabre> lets do that
[01:14] <ochosi> if everything is just "xubuntu-dev" then everybody will think you have to do all that by yourself
[01:14] <ochosi> and you will think everyone will help
[01:15] <ochosi> and nothing will get done :)
[01:15] <ochosi> so i'd encourage you to assign those things you wanna do personally to yourself
[01:15] <knome> ++
[01:15] <bluesabre> makes sense
[01:15] <ochosi> then it'll be clearer for others (like me) where you want assistance
[01:17] <ochosi> btw, slightly different topic, but still xub and devel related
[01:17] <ochosi> i talked to cavalier about your gsettings branch in order to get it merged in finally
[01:18] <bluesabre> right
[01:18] <ochosi> he promised to look at it on the weekend
[01:18] <bluesabre> looking forward to having something this weekend :)
[01:18] <ochosi> guess we'll have to remind him :)
[01:18] <ochosi> but yeah, everything worked with it
[01:19] <ochosi> so to the worst i'll just merge it personally
[01:19] <bluesabre> sounds good
[01:19] <ochosi> then we can get that into 15.04 and consider what to do with the settings app
[01:20] <ochosi> we could e.g. do a downstream patch for xfpm and add a new "locking" tab to it (or even "light-locker") and make it configurable there
[01:21] <bluesabre> yeah
[01:21] <ochosi> since switching to gsettings means we'll get rid of much of the code lls currently holds
[01:21] <bluesabre> sounds like a good idea
[01:22] <ochosi> then probably just move the "lock on suspend" option over to that tab too in our downstream patch
[01:22] <ochosi> and make it a "security" tab
[01:22] <ochosi> shouldn't be too hard actually
[01:23] <ochosi> but yeah, first we need ll 1.5.1
[01:23] <bluesabre> yeah, let's get that, then we can have fun
[01:24] <ochosi> okeydokey, i'll try to push that then
[01:25] <ochosi> hm, i would imagine gtkplug would work with gtk2/3 btw
[01:26] <ochosi> it says you can even use it with QT
[01:27] <bluesabre> might break with later versions of gtk + mir/wayland
[01:27] <bluesabre> and also, might not
[01:27] <ochosi> seems it's still fine with gtk3 stable
[01:28] <ochosi> but yeah, might or might not
[01:28] <ochosi> it doesn't seem too hard though to make it pluggable
[01:28] <bluesabre> cool, let's start adding things to our various roadmaps then
[01:28] <ochosi> (apart from the examples i know being c and the apps in question being python)
[01:28] <bluesabre> http://wiki.smdavis.us/doku.php?id=development
[01:28] <bluesabre> :)
[01:30] <ochosi> ok
[01:31] <bluesabre> lls might be a good place to start with vala conversions
[01:31] <bluesabre> since it is so tiny
[01:31] <ochosi> vala conversions?
[01:32] <bluesabre> if we want to start doing vala development at all... I've considered it for a few things
[01:32] <ochosi> well only if we don't dissolve it into a tab in xfpm
[01:32] <bluesabre> since its lighter than python
[01:32] <ochosi> yeah, it used to be under heavy development when i looked at it last
[01:32] <ochosi> but i guess it has consolidated meanwhile
[01:33] <bluesabre> yeah, its doing better now, and has better gtk bindings that python-gobject (sadly)
[01:33] <ochosi> ok, added those few thoughts to the dev roadmaps
[01:33] <bluesabre> thanks
[01:34] <bluesabre> I think I'll try reviewing some greeter merges tonight so I can say I was productive :)
[01:34] <ochosi> cool
[01:34]  * ochosi already pushed a patch to xfwm4, so he's safe
[01:34] <bluesabre> :D
[01:35] <ochosi> also found the source of the bug elfy reported against intelligent hiding
[01:35] <ochosi> although the fix will likely be ugly
[01:35] <ochosi> anyway, gotta hit the sack
[01:35] <knome> ochosi, that'll hurt
[01:35]  * knome hides
[01:36] <bluesabre> oh yeah
[01:36] <ochosi> bluesabre: oh, and that bluetooth-indicator thingy, python-libindicator or whatever it was... adding that to the seed would be cool
[01:36] <bluesabre> ochosi, quick note about intelligent hiding
[01:36] <bluesabre> when used with window plugin, its kind of annoying that it hides when clicking on a different window button
[01:36] <ochosi> it only hides if the newly focused window overlaps
[01:36] <bluesabre> I think it should stay elevated as long as the mouse is still there
[01:37] <bluesabre> if thats possible
[01:37] <ochosi> and it's only feeling annoying cause it's hiding too quickly imo
[01:37] <bluesabre> only a minor annoyance though
[01:37] <ochosi> it should slide away more slowly
[01:37] <bluesabre> yeah
[01:37] <bluesabre> sliding is more difficult with gtk2 :(
[01:37] <ochosi> the whole logic is quite complex already, so i'm not sure about your suggestion
[01:38] <bluesabre> yeah, np
[01:38] <ochosi> might take a lot of time to figure that out without breaking something else
[01:38] <Unit193> bluesabre: What are we going to talk about?  And dev trello doesn't sound too bad.  I'm not actually using blueprints at all as it is, so couldn't be worse than that.
[01:38] <ochosi> the slow sliding should be there already
[01:38] <bluesabre> maybe we can finish the gtk3 port eventually
[01:38] <ochosi> just have to activate it
[01:38] <ochosi> or: find a good way to activate it
[01:38] <ochosi> :)
[01:38] <Unit193> Also glanced over something that said gtk 3.14.  Seen it in Debian, it's kind of crap.
[01:39] <bluesabre> more things broken probably
[01:39] <ochosi> bluesabre: well, new features were added, so the gtk3 port is out of date. so better do 4.12 before really working on gtk3
[01:39] <bluesabre> particularly for parole if not using clutter
[01:39] <ochosi> meh, that sucks
[01:39] <bluesabre> yeah, 4.12 is priority
[01:39] <ochosi> clutter really eats more cpu
[01:39] <ochosi> anyway, i'll doze off
[01:40] <ochosi> nighty!
[01:40] <bluesabre> less than X, more than VX
[01:40] <bluesabre> *XV
[01:40] <bluesabre> seeya
[02:22]  * Unit193 petpets bluesabre.
[02:22] <bluesabre> :)
[02:23] <bluesabre> this one seems desirable, https://code.launchpad.net/~kalgasnik/lightdm-gtk-greeter/allow-debugging-option/+merge/243139
[02:25] <Unit193> That it does.  Did he do the config one? ;)
[02:25] <Unit193> So, did you need me for something? (re: pinging.)
[02:25] <bluesabre> nah
[02:25] <bluesabre> go on and have fun
[02:26] <Unit193> Was thinking of taking a walk, 25F/13/F out.
[02:26] <Unit193> Just have to finish tea.  So yes, do ping/add me to the devel trello if you make one.  Thought about creating a wiki page with what I'm doing and what progress I have with it.
[02:27] <bluesabre> sure, that sounds good
[02:27] <bluesabre> wondering how I should lay out the dev trello... per project, per dev, priority bugs, etc
[02:30] <knome> i would probably do that per project, most useful for tracking process
[02:30] <knome> sleeps ->
[02:33] <bluesabre> yeah
[02:33] <bluesabre> later knome
[08:38] <elfy> morning all
[08:47] <ochosi> morning elfy 
[08:48] <elfy> hi ochosi 
[08:49] <ochosi> so i'm already one step further on the bug you reported yesterday
[08:49] <elfy> yea, read that :)
[08:49] <ochosi> don't have a fix yet, but it probably will be a tiny bit ugly (if it's even fixable)
[08:50] <elfy> I was thinking about that - but then came up against panel at the top :p
[08:50] <elfy> logically speaking (for my workflow at least) with panel at bottom and a window rolled up 
[08:50] <ochosi> generally speaking, i'd have to find a way to know what size the window-decorations have
[08:51] <elfy> I have decided that window is in the way and thus panel wouldn't be - so regardless of what window size is, when window rolled up - panel should show 
[08:51] <elfy> and looking at it that way - you don't need to know window size - just rolled up state 
[08:53] <elfy> but then I thought of panel at top - and rolled up the title bar is over the panel, if you then unhide the panel you can't see title bar to unroll it ;)
[08:54] <elfy> though alt-tab to a window that's rolled up does maximise it again
[09:07] <ochosi> yup
[09:07] <ochosi> that's the problem
[09:08] <ochosi> i still have to check the size of rolled up windows cause they might still overlap
[09:08] <ochosi> same with panels on the sides btw, not just on top
[09:09] <elfy> mmm 
[09:10] <elfy> not sure why you need to know size - just the rolled up state - or is there not something which says "this_is_rolled_up"
[09:10] <elfy> anyway - all beyond my pay grade :D
[09:11] <ochosi> how would i check whether the panel and the rolled up window overlap without knowing the size?
[09:11] <ochosi> i'm basically intersecting rectangles
[09:13] <ochosi> man, corner-tiling is really really useful, i can see that already after using it for 5mins
[09:13] <elfy> well if x is maximised - and panel is not floating about in the middle - aren't they always going to overlap - if they didn't then the panel wouldn't actually be hidden
[09:13] <ochosi> yeah, but rolled-up != maximized
[09:14] <elfy> no of course not
[09:14] <ochosi> just think of a rolled-up window as a very small one, but if you ask it how big it is, it'll still tell you its rolled-down size
[09:15] <elfy> yes I understand that :)
[09:15] <elfy> but if window IS maximised AND rolled up then panel should show surely? 
[09:16] <elfy> anyway - I think we're in danger of confusing each other here :p
[09:16] <ochosi> if it's maximized and rolled up it can still overlap with the panel or not overlap with the panel
[09:17] <ochosi> so yeah, currently they always overlap because we don't know the size of the rolled-up window, but instead only the size of the maximized window
[09:17] <ochosi> (in case that's what you were hinting at)
[09:17] <elfy> mmm
[09:17] <elfy> sort of :)
[09:19] <ochosi> mkay :)
[09:21] <elfy> what I'm logically alluding to is that if you did have a max'd window which is now rolled up - irrespective of size - you've moved it out of the way and the panel should unhide
[09:22] <elfy> because user isn't thinking about what the code thinks is the size - but what they actually see 
[09:23] <ochosi> yeah, i agree
[09:23] <ochosi> then again, the panel might still get in the way in some cases (as you pointed out yourself, especially with panel at the top)
[09:23] <ochosi> so it's still worth to check
[09:23] <elfy> yep 
[09:23] <ochosi> but yeah, in 90% of all cases, the panel will go away anyway
[09:24] <ochosi> currently i'm considering to delay to hide the panel
[09:26] <elfy> not sure how that would resolve it 
[09:26] <ochosi> no, that's a different point
[09:27] <elfy> ok :)
[09:27] <ochosi> i think sometimes it's a bit unpractical that it goes away immediately
[09:28] <ochosi> showing immediately is good i think, but hiding could be slightly delayed
[09:28] <ochosi> so that there's no "i wanted to click a button in the panel twice" and it hides meanwhile so the second click reaches "something else below"
[09:30] <elfy> good point 
[09:31] <elfy> but - you'd have to be quick moving the mouse after you clicked - as panel stays while mouse is over it 
[09:31] <ochosi> not if you click a window button of a window that is maximized i think
[09:31] <ochosi> then it might go away quite quickly atm
[09:32] <elfy> I'll look at that a bit later - panel at bottom here :p
[09:32] <elfy> just about to wander off to work 
[09:32] <ochosi> sure, hf
[09:32] <elfy> I'd love to - but it won't happen :p
[09:33] <ochosi> :]
[09:33] <ochosi> make the best of it then
[09:33] <elfy> heh
[09:34] <elfy> really should call this shaded instead of rolled up I suspect :D
[09:34] <ochosi> yeah
[09:34] <ochosi> would make things a tad clearer
[09:34] <elfy> :)
[09:50] <ochosi> Unit193: still awake?
[10:29] <ochosi> Noskcaj: about bluez5, could you give me/us an update on what's coming and whether there is a PPA or something to test things in advance?
[10:33] <ochosi> ah ok, i've found it already...
[10:42] <brainwash> ochosi: "There no some icons in system tray" -> python-libindicator not installed?
[10:42] <brainwash> you mentioned this package here some time ago
[10:43] <brainwash> and dropbox is a python app (last time I checked)
[10:47] <brainwash> oh, the reporter already solved the problem..
[10:59] <bluesabre> ochosi: corner-tiling?
[10:59] <bluesabre> how? :D
[10:59] <bluesabre> will fix the python-libindicator item tonight
[11:04] <ochosi> bluesabre: drag window to corner and get 25% window size
[11:04] <ochosi> there's already a branch with it
[11:04] <bluesabre> ah, thought you might have already punted it to trunk
[11:05] <ochosi> nope, needs more testing
[11:05] <ochosi> also, currently it also implements a maximize-on-move-to-top option that i'm not sure i wanna push
[11:05] <ochosi> fwiw, bluez5 seems to work okay with my bluetooth keyboard
[11:05]  * bluesabre prefers that over 50% at top
[11:05] <ochosi> no improvements/downsides
[11:06] <ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, but then tile-to-bottom also doesn't work anymore
[11:06] <ochosi> and that can be useful
[11:06] <ochosi> especially with corner tiling
[11:06] <bluesabre> true
[11:07] <bluesabre> so how about 25%/50% all around?
[11:07] <ochosi> yeah, that's what it can do currently
[11:07] <ochosi> i mean, i guess i know what you mean :)
[11:07] <bluesabre> yeah, gotcha
[11:07] <ochosi> you can either do 25% (via corners) or 50% (via sides)
[11:08] <ochosi> or do 25 + 25 on the left and 50% on the right
[11:08] <ochosi> which is pretty cool
[11:08] <bluesabre> it would also be cool to be able to bind the corner tiling to keyboard shortcuts
[11:08] <ochosi> yeah, that should be possible
[11:08] <ochosi> with maximize, i'm thinking while people might be used to it, there are still soooo many other ways to maximize windows...
[11:08] <ochosi> (double-click the titlebar, click the maximize button, kb-shortcut)
[11:10] <bluesabre> agreed
[11:15] <bluesabre> alrighty, time for work... bbl
[11:25] <ochosi> knome: humm, i guess the XSD needs an amendment where it says that members of "xubuntu developers" have upload rights
[11:26] <ochosi> that's not true anymore
[11:26] <ochosi> and being admitted to that team also has become more as in other teams i'd say
[11:27] <knome> hm?
[11:27] <knome> has become more?
[11:27] <ochosi> well the process used to involve the ubuntu development board
[11:27] <knome> oh, right
[11:27] <knome> yeah
[11:27] <ochosi> but it doesn't anymore, becoming a member of xubuntu-dev is mostly being approved by team lead
[11:27] <ochosi> and (maybe) xpl
[11:27]  * bluesabre concurs
[11:27] <ochosi> gives you push-rights, but no upload rights
[11:28] <bluesabre> ~xubuntu-uploaders is the new upload team
[11:28] <knome> if you want, i can help with drafting the text, but since it's mostly still a process description, it should go through without a hitch, so just notice the list that this is going to happen
[11:28] <ochosi> i'm wondering whether we should just remove that paragraph
[11:28] <knome> yeah, or that
[11:28] <ochosi> since there are no fundamental differences with becoming a member of any other team
[11:28] <ochosi> or sub-team
[11:29]  * knome looks at the actual text now
[11:29] <knome> yes, i remember i never really liked that one, but served a function back then
[11:30] <ochosi> we could also redraft a paragraph on how to become a sub-team member, but then again, most of our sub-teams are one-man/woman shows, so i don't really see the need...
[11:30] <knome> redraft?
[11:30] <knome> what's wrong with the current one?
[11:30] <ochosi> as long as we're less than 20 people i guess we can manage without
[11:30] <knome> i mean, isn't that pretty much accurate?
[11:30] <ochosi> i mean re-draft the xubuntu developers into becoming a member of a sub-team, like xubuntu-artwork
[11:31] <knome> isn't it like it right now?
[11:31] <knome> why should it be mentioned separately?
[11:31] <ochosi> i only see the part about being a member
[11:31] <ochosi> yeah, it probably shouldn't be
[11:31] <ochosi> we probably don't need an official process for becoming a member of a subteam
[11:31] <knome> getting into the artwork team gives push rights as well
[11:31] <knome> we don't really have one
[11:32] <bluesabre> yeah, no different there, just push rights to different components
[11:32] <knome> but it's implied kind of, if you want to become a team member
[11:32] <knome> well not kind of, it's implied, or tbe, it's said
[11:32] <ochosi> yeah, but for team members to join a subteam i don't think we need any kind of procedure
[11:32] <knome> what i think we could do
[11:32] <ochosi> team leads should decide, period. they should manage their teams
[11:32] <knome> well, we have this:
[11:33] <knome> Commit meaningful contributions to one of the subteams, after which one will be approved to the subteam for "probation" by a subteam administrator
[11:33] <knome> which is pretty accurate, and doesn't really enforce any specific policy
[11:33] <ochosi> oh right
[11:33] <ochosi> yeah
[11:33] <ochosi> let's leave it at that then and just drop the "developers" paragraph
[11:33] <knome> one thing we could add...
[11:33] <knome> as i was saying
[11:34] <knome> is to somehow mention that there are certain tasks which can only be conducted if the team members are part of some other, ubuntu-wide teams
[11:34] <knome> like, docs pushing stuff
[11:34] <ochosi> right
[11:34] <knome> and that could be formalized in a manner that also mentioned packageset push rights
[11:35] <knome> but that could probably go into the process descriptions as well
[11:35]  * knome opens that page
[11:35] <ochosi> might be subject to change though (as with the upload rights)
[11:35] <ochosi> so i dunno, if you consider it important enough i'm ok with it, but i'm also fine without that part
[11:35] <knome> the thing is,
[11:36] <knome> it's given to us, but if an outsider reads the document or the descriptions, if we don't mention things, they won't know about them
[11:36] <ochosi> i'd prefer it to go to processes actually
[11:36] <knome> sure
[11:36] <ochosi> makes more sense there than in the SD
[11:37] <ochosi> so for the SD, let's drop the out-of-date developers part and for processes we can add a part about e.g. docs
[11:37] <knome> we aren't listing xubuntu-uploaders anywhere
[11:37] <knome> does that convert to "the members of X have upload rights for the xubuntu packageset" ?
[11:37] <ochosi> yeah, but it's sorta processes->"packageset"
[11:38]  * ochosi doesn't remember the process to get packageset rights clearly enough
[11:38] <knome> bluesabre?
[11:39] <knome> i don't know/care if you automatically get the upload rights when joining that team, i want to know if that's supposed to socially imply that
[11:40] <knome> we really need to cut the processes page in chunks
[11:40] <ochosi> yeah, probably
[11:40] <knome> i've been planning that for a long time
[11:41] <knome> now if only the wiki lets me do that..
[11:43] <bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[11:43] <bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[11:44] <knome> bluesabre, i just wanted a yes/no ;'(
[11:44] <bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeanDavis/DeveloperApplication
[11:44] <bluesabre> :)
[11:44] <bluesabre> yes/no for what?
[11:44] <ochosi> huhu
[11:45] <knome> 13:37  knome: does that convert to "the members of X have upload rights for the xubuntu packageset" ?
[11:45] <bluesabre> only members of ~xubuntu-uploaders, MOTU, and archive admins can upload to the xubuntu packageset
[11:45] <knome> X being ~xubuntu-developers
[11:45] <knome> err, uploaders..
[11:45] <knome> yeah
[11:45] <ochosi> our administrational motto: "ubuntu's process pages make people cry"
[11:45] <bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
[12:14] <ochosi> knome: so to sum up, are you ok with me removing the developers paragraph or do you wanna reshape it into something else?
[12:16] <knome> i am ok, and while i think it's going to be just ok, i'd do the comment round on the mailing list again
[12:17] <ochosi> what exactly did you push to launchpad last time for review?
[12:17] <ochosi> the wiki page itself?
[12:23] <knome> yeah
[12:23] <knome> but this time i'd say just an email would be enough
[12:23] <knome> unless you plan to have a massive(ish) diff, like i did
[12:29] <Unit193> ochosi: Hello.
[12:37] <ochosi> knome: nah, just the simple thing
[12:38] <ochosi> Unit193: just wanted to let you know that now there is a branch for testing. it contains an additional option that i originally didn't want in there, but it's based on master: https://github.com/cedl38/xfwm4/tree/tile
[12:38] <ochosi> so if you feel like packaging that up, we can offer it to people for testing
[12:43] <brainwash> is the corner tiling optional (disabled by default)?
[12:45] <brainwash> Unit193: can ubiquity ship a custom ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfwm4.xml ? maybe you know something about this
[12:45] <brainwash> which is only read by ubiquity-dm
[12:46] <Unit193> Why would ubiquity read it?
[12:46] <brainwash> ready by xfwm4 when run inside ubiquity-dm
[12:47] <brainwash> this way we could hide unneeded window decoration buttons
[12:48] <brainwash> mmh, we could run xfconf-query to alter values before xfwm starts, or?
[12:50] <ochosi> re: ubiquity: that is totally overkill and unnecessary imo
[12:50] <ochosi> we really have bigger fish to fry
[12:50] <ochosi> there is one option for tiling, just as before
[12:50] <knome> bbl
[12:53] <brainwash> it's unnecessary to fix a bug? :/
[12:54]  * ochosi sighs...
[14:06] <Unit193> ochosi: Right, anywho yes.
[14:24] <Unit193> ochosi: And you also have mail now, or soon.
[14:33] <matt_symes> Just testing the new intelligent auto hiding panel as detailed in elfy's mailing list post. This is on Trusty. No problems so far and it looks good. My only question: is there an easy way to decrease the timeout when making the panel reappear; to make it reappear faster or is it a hardcoded value ?
[14:55] <Unit193> brainwash: You have super cow powers with bugs right?  Can you mark this as unfixed in trusty? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/parsedatetime/+bug/1302963
[15:05] <slickymasterWork> you mean 'Won't fix' Unit193?
[15:05] <elfy> ha 
[15:05] <elfy> I read 'Won't Fix Until 193 
[15:06] <elfy> we missed that one then :p
[15:06] <slickymasterWork> hey elfy 
[15:07] <elfy> hi slickymasterWork 
[15:10]  * slickymasterWork could do it for Unit193 if only he'd answer him :P
[15:10] <elfy> you'd be the old man of Xubuntu if you fix it in 193 :D
[15:10] <slickymasterWork> :)
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> some days I do feel liky one elfy 
[15:12]  * elfy changes autocorrect for slickymasterWork to Methusela :p
[15:17] <slickymasterWork> lol
[15:20] <ochosi> elfy: in case you're ready for part 2 of the testing assignment i mentioned the other day (part 1 was the panel, thanks a bunch for writing that up and all!)...
[15:21] <elfy> ochosi: given what I read in backlog just now - I'll go make a cuppa before saying anything like 'bring it on' :p
[15:22] <ochosi> hehe
[15:23] <ochosi> anyway, ping me whenever you're ready ;)
[15:26] <elfy> ochosi: back :)
[15:27] <ochosi> ok that was quick
[15:28] <ochosi> so, this time we're looking at a new feature for xfwm4, which is corner-tiling
[15:28] <elfy> yep
[15:28] <ochosi> i'm not sure how widely this was tested, i think some arch users have been using it
[15:28] <elfy> ok
[15:28] <ochosi> but my idea is to give it some testing, then prepare a patch of it and propose it to get merged into xfwm4 master
[15:28] <elfy> so currently we can tile 50% vert or horiz - that correct?
[15:29] <ochosi> yeah
[15:29] <ochosi> with the new patch, you can drag windows to a corner to tile them to 25%
[15:29] <elfy> right - so could have 2@ 25% on left say and one on right filling remainder? 
[15:31] <ochosi> yup: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-11-163058.php
[15:31] <elfy> cool - that's what I was expecting this to do - so we're on the same page :D
[15:31] <ochosi> good :)
[15:31] <ochosi> it's less complicated then intelligent hiding anyway ;)
[15:32] <elfy> lol
[15:32] <ochosi> so my idea would be that the two of us start using/testing this for a few days and then we send out a call
[15:32] <ochosi> i don't wanna send out too many calls at once
[15:32] <elfy> works for me - and is good timing - no work till Monday for me 
[15:33] <ochosi> Unit193 was kind enough to package it up in his private repo: https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce
[15:33] <elfy> yep - agreed - better to space these things out 
[15:33] <ochosi> i'll leave the package there until we send out the call
[15:33] <ochosi> so feel free to just test from there until then
[15:33] <elfy> ok - I'll add that in a moment and play around 
[15:34] <elfy> so - one question - you want this tested WITH intellihide or seperately? 
[15:35] <ochosi> it doesn't really matter
[15:35] <ochosi> or: it shouldn't
[15:35] <ochosi> or: hopefully it doesn't
[15:35] <ochosi> :]
[15:36] <elfy> heh
[15:36] <ochosi> one thing that seems to be a regression - let me know whether you see that as well - is that the original window size is not restored on untiling
[15:37] <elfy> ok
[15:37] <ochosi> from the corners
[15:37] <elfy> mmm
[15:37] <ochosi> and i've noticed another glitch that i can't reproduce yet, where an app will look a bit scrambled when corner-tiled for the first time, then tiling again fixes that
[15:38] <ochosi> still, a hickup that should be fixed, but in case you see it, i've got that covered already
[15:38] <elfy> currently the hickup I've got is that shoving something in the corner does the same as vert tiling 
[15:39] <elfy> restarted xfwm4 
[15:39] <ochosi> yeah, gotta restart xfwm4 manually
[15:39] <elfy> I did 
[15:39] <ochosi> oh
[15:40] <ochosi> apt-cache policy xfwm4 gives you the PPA version?
[15:40] <ochosi> let me check but i thought there was no special setting involved to enable it...
[15:40] <elfy> yep - got the right one installed
[15:41] <elfy> matt_symes: as far as I know the delay is hard-coded 
[15:43] <ochosi> running this in the terminal returns true? xfconf-query -c xfwm4 -p /general/tile_on_move
[15:43] <elfy> yep
[15:43] <matt_symes> hey elfy :) No worries about the delay then. I can build it myself if needs be. The auto hiding panel is looking pretty good at the moment.
[15:43] <elfy> thanks - but thank ochosi :)
[15:43] <ochosi> elfy: and your mouse-cursor went really into the corner, i.e. the end of the screen and it didn't corner-tile?
[15:44] <ochosi> (sorry to ask again)
[15:44] <ochosi> matt_symes, elfy: correction, the delay should be configurable
[15:44] <ochosi> but it's a hidden option iirc
[15:44] <elfy> ochosi: cursor turned into a square
[15:45] <elfy> ochosi: ok - didn't know that - but matt_symes knows I make stuff up as I go along :p
[15:45] <matt_symes> Ahh. Excellent. How to i get to the hidden option ?
[15:45] <matt_symes> lol elfy 
[15:46] <ochosi> humm, oh, i just saw there is an option but it seems it's readonly :/
[15:46] <ochosi> sorry
[15:46] <elfy> ochosi: ok - no - it wasn't a square - just part of the cursor lol
[15:46] <ochosi> it would've been popdown-delay and popup-delay in /panels/panel-0
[15:46] <matt_symes> No worries ochosi elfy. Thanks for the info
[15:47] <ochosi> does it hide too quickly or what was the issue?
[15:47] <elfy> brb
[15:51] <elfy> ochosi: ok - reboot did it - can confirm the not returning window to pre-tile size as well
[15:51] <ochosi> rigt
[15:51] <ochosi> right
[15:52] <ochosi> i've just figured out how to reproduce the other bug i was talking about...
[15:52] <ochosi> could you give these two steps a go? http://dpaste.com/3A913CF
[15:54] <ochosi> result looks something like this: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-12-11-165349.php
[15:55] <elfy> not seeing that 
[15:58] <ochosi> yeah, might take >1 try and it has to be an app you newly opened
[15:59] <ochosi> so first open e.g. mousepad, enlarge it by dragging it to the right bottom with alt+left-drag
[16:00] <elfy> yea - I tried with a newly opened mousepad actually 
[16:00] <elfy> not doing it here 
[16:03] <elfy> ok - so this I didn't expect - got mousepad open and tiled in top left - open another mousepad and it moves to cover the existing one
[16:22] <ochosi> elfy: maybe that's the bug
[16:22] <ochosi> at first it looks like there's two
[16:22] <ochosi> if they lose focus, you get the shadow i posted
[16:23] <ochosi> gotta go
[16:23] <ochosi> bbl
[19:21] <elfy> just noticed that the meeting didn't happen because it got moved again ... slow day here
[19:22] <pleia2> it's in 2 hrs 40 minutes
[19:22] <pleia2> 22UTC
[19:22]  * drc thinks that canceling/postponing any meeting (anywhere, anytime) is not necessarily a bad thing :)
[19:22] <elfy> pleia2: yea - was originally expecting 1800
[21:43] <ochosi> elfy: i only forgot to update the meeting wiki page at first, all links and the mail pointed to 22utc ;)
[21:43] <ochosi> (even the link on the wiki page was correct though)
[21:47] <ochosi> !team | reminder, meeting in less than 15mins!
[21:48] <skellat> o/
[21:48]  * pleia2 wonders where the day has gone
[21:49]  * slickymaster wonders the same about the 2014 year
[21:50]  * skellat is watching the countdown until the federal budget crisis begins if nothing gets passed in the legislature and wondering what this will mean for his job...
[21:50] <elfy> ochosi: lol - I don't actually look at the wiki page - I just see what turns up in the changes :p
[21:51] <ochosi> elfy: did you take a screenshot of that bug you were experiencing btw?
[21:52]  * Unit193 stabs ochosi.
[21:52] <ochosi> ouch!
[21:52] <ochosi> what did i do now??
[21:52] <Unit193> General purposes.
[21:52] <elfy> mmm ochosi - which bug? 
[21:52] <Unit193> And I'm with slickymaster here.
[21:53]  * slickymaster rejoices 
[21:53] <elfy> really Unit193 ? pop by here on the way home then :D
[21:53] <slickymaster> btw Unit193, you're with me on what?
[21:54] <Unit193> ochosi: Also, you pinged last week about why ubottu was "broken", and it won't highlight people with a link, anti-spam.
[21:54] <Unit193> *** slickymaster wonders the same about the 2014 year <<-----
[21:54] <slickymaster> lol
[21:54] <ochosi> elfy: the tiling bug with mousepad
[21:54] <slickymaster> yeah
[21:54] <ochosi> Unit193: right, good to know. thanks!
[21:55] <ochosi> Unit193: but please don't stab me anymore just for "general purposes", i have feelings too!
[21:55] <elfy> ochosi: nope - but I can if you like - they were definitely *different* instances - different names for one thing 
[21:55] <ochosi> hm weird
[21:55] <ochosi> yeah, please do
[21:55] <Unit193> ochosi: You pinged when I was reading/watching comics! :P
[21:55] <slickymaster> never mess with a guy and his comics
[21:55] <ochosi> awwwwh, soooorrrry ;)
[21:56] <elfy> okey doke ochosi, I'll try to capture if that helps 
[21:56] <matte88> hi everyone!
[21:57] <slickymaster> hi matte88 
[21:57] <matte88> is there a meeting right now, am I right?
[21:58] <ochosi> yeah, in 2mins approx
[21:58] <matte88> perfect! it's my first meeting, I'm curious :)
[21:59] <matte88> I'd like to contribute to ubuntu/xubuntu dev
[21:59] <ochosi> nice, welcome aboard then!
[21:59] <matte88> thanks ochosi!
[21:59] <ochosi> feel free to stick around after the meeting for more informal talk
[21:59] <ochosi> but yeah, depending on who is here, the meeting might also be more or less in/formal
[21:59] <elfy> hi matte88 - nice to see you :)
[22:00] <matte88> thanks elfy! ochosi, I will!
[22:00] <ochosi> alrighty everyone...
[22:01] <ochosi> #startmeeting
[22:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 11 22:01:01 2014 UTC.  The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[22:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:01] <ochosi> !team | meeting everyone, who's around?
[22:01] <pleia2> o/
[22:01] <skellat> o/
[22:01] <jjfrv8> o/
[22:01] <elfy> t'is here
[22:01] <dkessel> o/
[22:01] <matte88> o/
[22:02] <slickymaster> o/
[22:02] <slickymaster> hey jjfrv8 
[22:02] <slickymaster> skellat: 
[22:02] <ochosi> ok, let's get to it then
[22:02] <ochosi> #topic Open action items
[22:03] <ochosi> as knome doesn't seem to be around, what about yours pleia2?
[22:03] <pleia2> #done xubuntu-contacts mailing list has been set up
[22:04] <pleia2> #done draft of etherpad for user self-classification survey
[22:04] <elfy> pleia2: got a link to that? 
[22:04] <pleia2> #link http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
[22:04] <elfy> ty :)
[22:05] <pleia2> #info unixstickers shipped the stickers + t-shirt order yesterday, so I should know the quality of the t-shirt in however long it takes to get to California from Italy :)
[22:05] <ochosi> nice :)
[22:05] <ochosi> looking forward to that!
[22:05] <pleia2> they were quite generous, it was $380 worth of stickers+shirt they gave us
[22:05] <elfy> I think QA should get one to check too ... 
[22:05] <ochosi> sweet
[22:05] <elfy> pleia2: wow !!!
[22:06] <ochosi> pleia2: should we write a thank-you note on the blog or something?
[22:06] <pleia2> ochosi: yeah, I think we'll do that when we formally update the site to promote the shirt
[22:06] <ochosi> sounds good to me
[22:06] <ochosi> well, great news either way!
[22:07] <elfy> and everyone else I would think ochosi :)
[22:07] <pleia2> yeah, I'm happy
[22:07] <ochosi> great
[22:07] <ochosi> i guess that's it though for open action items, let's move along to team updates...
[22:07] <ochosi> unless there was anything else..?
[22:08] <elfy> I'll try and track down knome re the QA process thing
[22:08] <elfy> you can action me for that ochosi 
[22:08] <ochosi> #action elfy to converse with knome about QA processes
[22:08] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy to converse with knome about QA processes
[22:08] <ochosi> yup, was already typing it up ;)
[22:08] <elfy> :)
[22:09] <ochosi> okeydokey then
[22:09] <ochosi> #topic Team updates
[22:09] <ochosi> feel free to just #info whatever's going on in your teams
[22:09] <elfy> I can go - quiet and quick
[22:09] <ochosi> and after that, we go through the blueprints very quickly
[22:09] <pleia2> #info Lots of positive social media response to both the Xfce surveys and call for testing of Intelligent Panel
[22:09] <elfy> #info Not much in the way of image testing currently
[22:10] <ochosi> guess ppl are waiting for the first milestone
[22:10] <slickymaster> #info jjfrv8 finished the power manager docs I started abd then postponed, and they're already online -> http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/start
[22:10] <slickymaster> s/abd/and
[22:10] <elfy> #info package testing slow - as expected, given we've pulled that back now 
[22:10] <slickymaster> thanks for that excelent work jjfrv8 
[22:10] <skellat> When will we have Xfce survey results?
[22:10] <elfy> #info QA and dev/ochosi calling for testing on staging 
[22:10] <ochosi> #info the power-manager docs are actually here: http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/1.4/start
[22:11] <ochosi> skellat: depends on when sidi has time to work on them
[22:11] <elfy> #info jjfrv8 has been patiently checking through testcases for reporting issues
[22:11] <elfy> thanks jjfrv8 - you don't know how much I appreciative that :D
[22:11] <pleia2> #info Started planning a Xubuntu QA global jam for the California LoCo on Sunday February 8th, local marketing/qa? :)
[22:11] <sidi> skellat, ochosi sorry about the delays. i have urgent stuff to finish up for a few studies at UCL
[22:12] <ochosi> #info Thanks to Unit193 we'll have a panel in our ubiquity install session that exposes important indicators (network, sound, a11y)
[22:12] <Unit193> ^ Not merged yet.
[22:12] <elfy> ochosi: first milestone is next week - we're not taking part with that one - our first one will be A2 in January 
[22:12] <ochosi> #info ochosi tested bluez5 (as that is supposedly an upcoming transition) and things seemed to work just fine (bluetooth keyboard)
[22:12] <elfy> ty :)
[22:12] <ochosi> elfy: yup i know, but i think the motivation for milestones is bigger than for exploratory testing
[22:13] <ochosi> anyway, trying to lead by example ;)
[22:13]  * ochosi is currently on vivid
[22:13] <Unit193> I will have one there after A1 I believe.
[22:13] <ochosi> #info Unit193 and bluesabre are also working towards resolving the black background in our ubiquity install session
[22:14] <elfy> ochosi: and that's appreciated too ;)
[22:14] <ochosi> #info gtk3.14 is still stuck, #ubuntu-desktop folks (mostly larsu) are still working on the transition
[22:15] <elfy> ochosi: remind me please - that's the base reason to oddities with themes ? like no boxes for *ticks*
[22:15] <ochosi> btw, vivid is working great so far, no big breakage
[22:15] <ochosi> elfy: yes, our themes are ready for gtk3.14 already when it hasnt landed yet
[22:16] <ochosi> i think that ^ is a first time for xubuntu in its history
[22:16] <elfy> ok - that's good then :)
[22:16] <slickymaster> there's always a first time for everything 
[22:16] <ochosi> righty, any more updates?
[22:16] <elfy> I might smile slickymaster :)
[22:16] <Unit193> Meh, gtk3.14 being stuck isn't something I'd call bad.
[22:16] <elfy> ochosi: not from me
[22:17] <slickymaster> not from me
[22:17] <ochosi> looking at http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html, we're sorta okayish
[22:17] <ochosi> but also not progressing super-fast
[22:17] <ochosi> quite a few workitems are stuck in TODO
[22:17] <ochosi> anything you folks need help with?
[22:18] <elfy> not QA wise - most is good 
[22:18] <ochosi> (website, marketing and community are the ones looking worst on paper)
[22:18] <elfy> if there's anything I can do to help other *teams* just ask 
[22:19] <ochosi> i know that most things that are todo are bugs
[22:19] <ochosi> but still, if there's things that are stuck or that you (the team leads) feel nobody is responsible for or really picking up, please get in touch!
[22:19] <elfy> ochosi: I wonder if there is a way for the bug blueprint to not count towards burndown
[22:20] <ochosi> i can't monitor everything (although i sometimes try to), so let's just keep our eyes open
[22:20] <elfy> some of that might hang about for instance
[22:20] <ochosi> well, we could unlink it
[22:20] <elfy> right
[22:21] <ochosi> but i don't mind if the graph isn't "pretty"
[22:21] <ochosi> as long as we have an overview of what our tasks are
[22:21] <elfy> my concern for that is - I'm happy to make sure things that *should* get looked at get added, but if there's no way that bug foo is going to be fixed - other's perhaps should unlink them
[22:21] <ochosi> also, please assign as many workitems as possible to actual people, not teams
[22:22] <ochosi> otherwise nobody might take responsibility
[22:22] <ochosi> yeah, we can unlink bugs until the last moment though
[22:22] <elfy> ochosi: well - generally I do that, but after a couple of cycles where it ended up being elfy I got a bit tired of that :)
[22:23] <elfy> so [xubuntu-qa] is goiing to be rather present for a while
[22:23] <ochosi> no worries, i can unlink them this cycle
[22:23] <ochosi> ah, you meant that
[22:23] <ochosi> right
[22:23] <ochosi> anyway, i won't tell you how to run your teams, it was merely a suggestion
[22:23] <ochosi> ok, moving along to announcements then...
[22:23] <elfy> ochosi: bugs is my particular worry - I can link, but I'm not able to fix, so - unlink away :)
[22:24] <ochosi> ok :)
[22:24] <ochosi> i can try to fix, but it's all a matter of time...
[22:24] <ochosi> which brings me to ...
[22:24] <ochosi> #topic Announcements
[22:25] <ochosi> #info I'm proposing to retire all themes from the default install except Numix and Greybird
[22:25] <elfy> gah 
[22:25] <ochosi> it's actually slightly more than a proposal, i don't have time to update all of them for every gtk3 release
[22:25] <elfy> didn't see Greybird to start with lol 
[22:25] <ochosi> so if anyone else in the team wants to pick that up, i'm happy to pass that along and help a bit initially
[22:26] <elfy> I would rather see 2 themes that completely work tbh
[22:26] <ochosi> but i really don't have time with working on development, artwork and being XPL to do this sort of work for 5 themes
[22:26] <Unit193> Glad Numix is one of them.
[22:26] <ochosi> the decision for the two is simply that Greybird is our default and i'd like the next LTS->LTS upgrade to go without theme breakage
[22:26] <ochosi> and Numix is the best maintained theme other than Greybird
[22:27] <slickymaster> I'm glad Greybird is the other Unit193 
[22:27] <elfy> ochosi: I guess that at the end of the day that's why this is a community meeting - nothing to stop people shouting out to help
[22:27] <ochosi> exactly
[22:27] <ochosi> and also why i'm trying to announce this as early as i can
[22:28] <ochosi> i was initially considering to push fixes to all themes for 3.14, because it seemed manageable
[22:28] <ochosi> but there are more changes coming along, and i don't have more time to spend on that
[22:28] <ochosi> fwiw, if anyone wants to keep testing the themes and if they work well enough, we can still decide to ship them
[22:28] <ochosi> but no maintenance >15.04
[22:28] <elfy> then now's the time to announce :)
[22:29] <elfy> slickymaster: you should mention that in here :)
[22:30] <slickymaster> planning to elfy 
[22:30] <ochosi> announcements slickymaster? :)
[22:30] <slickymaster> nopes, something else ochosi 
[22:30] <slickymaster> i'll bring it up in a moment
[22:31] <ochosi> you mean in the discussion part or should we just hang in there for you now? :)
[22:31] <slickymaster> ochosi, i was wondering wonders why isn't xubuntu-v-docs listed in the 'Contributing Blueprints' of http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html
[22:32] <slickymaster> it's the only one not listed
[22:32] <ochosi> guess it wasnt set to approved for some reason
[22:32] <elfy> there should be 1 thing on the burndown - everything else has a *name* to i
[22:33] <ochosi> only "proposed for vivid"
[22:33] <ochosi> i'll ask in -release later
[22:33] <elfy> ochosi: qa is at Needs Approval too 
[22:33] <ochosi> oh
[22:33] <ochosi> hm
[22:33] <ochosi> i'll ask around then
[22:33] <ochosi> thanks for bringing it up slickymaster 
[22:33] <slickymaster> np ochosi 
[22:33] <elfy> aaah
[22:34] <ochosi> #action ochosi to investigate why xubuntu-v-docs isnt shown in status.ubuntu.com
[22:34] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to investigate why xubuntu-v-docs isnt shown in status.ubuntu.com
[22:34] <elfy> QA is accepted for series
[22:34] <ochosi> yeah
[22:34] <ochosi> that's what i was referring to
[22:34] <slickymaster> and btw you apppproved the -docs blueprint ochosi 
[22:34] <ochosi> the folks from -release have to do that
[22:34] <ochosi> slickymaster: yeah, just now ;)
[22:34] <elfy> sorry - I was looking elsewhere ochosi 
[22:34] <ochosi> slickymaster: but as elfy said, it's not about that
[22:35] <slickymaster> ok
[22:35] <ochosi> alrighty, any other announcements or shall we move on..?
[22:35] <elfy> nothing here 
[22:35] <slickymaster> nothing else here
[22:36] <ochosi> pleia2, skellat, jjfrv8 ?
[22:36] <jjfrv8> not here
[22:36] <skellat> I'm good
[22:36] <pleia2> all god
[22:36] <pleia2> good
[22:36] <ochosi> k
[22:36] <ochosi> #topic Discussion
[22:37] <ochosi> so, we have one point that is up for discussion from the agenda
[22:37] <ochosi> we voted to remove xchat from our default install in 14.10
[22:37] <ochosi> the question is, how do we evaluate whether that was the right choice
[22:37] <ochosi> i've discussed this already with some of you in the last few days
[22:37] <ochosi> so lemme quickly summarise:
[22:38] <ochosi> 1. there is no quantitative data on which irc client is used most to connect to #xubuntu (asked freenode)
[22:38] <ochosi> 2. there were no complaints about xchat not being installed uttered in #xubuntu as far as i (and the people i talked to) can tell
[22:38]  * skellat notes there are no questions about the issue over on AskUbuntu
[22:39] <ochosi> 3. there were no complaints in 14.10 reviews about xchat not being installed, in fact it was never even mentioned as far as i can tell
[22:39]  * elfy adds he's not seen anything anywhere 
[22:39] <ochosi> we don't have to make a final decision today, but i'm leaning towards thinking that it was a good or at least an OK decision
[22:39] <ochosi> but i'd like to hear from you
[22:40] <pleia2> I've not seen complaints about removal
[22:40] <pleia2> (re: social media)
[22:40] <elfy> ochosi: well as you know, I've more time for a poke in the eye than for irssi or weechat or the like, but I just install it 
[22:41] <elfy> like lo and other things
[22:41] <skellat> If we're not seeing questions on AskUbuntu, not seeing it questioned in reviews, nothing spotted on social media, and not getting static from complaints...I think we've done okay with evaluation
[22:41] <elfy> I'd be +1 for remaining as we are
[22:41] <ochosi> yeah, i guess we all install/remove stuff from the default install
[22:41] <ochosi> i agree
[22:41] <elfy> ochosi: indeed - but if I saw lot's of howls I would say so
[22:41] <ochosi> howls?
[22:41] <ochosi> oh
[22:42] <ochosi> right
[22:42] <ochosi> :)
[22:42] <elfy> :)
[22:42] <ochosi> let's do a very quick vote just to paint a clearer picture
[22:42] <elfy> and I would also be in a position to see jailed trolling on UF
[22:42]  * slickymaster would backup elfy on that
[22:43] <ochosi> #vote Based on the feedback from the community, should we stick to our decision of not installing XChat by default anymore?
[22:43] <meetingology> Please vote on: Based on the feedback from the community, should we stick to our decision of not installing XChat by default anymore?
[22:43] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:43] <elfy> +1
[22:43] <meetingology> +1 received from elfy
[22:43] <pleia2> +1
[22:43] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[22:43] <ochosi> +1
[22:43] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[22:43] <slickymaster> +1
[22:43] <jjfrv8> +1
[22:43] <meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
[22:43] <meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
[22:44] <skellat> +1
[22:44] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[22:44] <slickymaster> where's Unit193?
[22:44] <ochosi> lurking, as always :p
[22:44] <elfy> sleeping
[22:44] <Unit193> "coding"
[22:44] <elfy> heh
[22:44] <ochosi> Unit193: cool, just take a break to quickly vote plu
[22:44] <ochosi> plz
[22:44] <elfy> that'll be *code* then :)
[22:44] <slickymaster> lol
[22:45] <Unit193> +0
[22:45] <meetingology> +0 received from Unit193
[22:45] <elfy> lol
[22:45] <ochosi> haha
[22:45]  * sidi is tempted to type +ponies
[22:45] <ochosi> dkessel: ?
[22:45] <matte88> +1
[22:45] <meetingology> +1 received from matte88
[22:46] <elfy> dkessel is probably aware he's not actually in -team ochosi 
[22:46] <dkessel> oooh
[22:47] <dkessel> +1
[22:47] <meetingology> +1 received from dkessel
[22:47] <ochosi> right, but it's ok
[22:47] <elfy> possibly shoudl be though :)
[22:47] <dkessel> didn't notice the ping
[22:47] <ochosi> just wanted to gather more feedback via the vote
[22:47] <ochosi> #endvote
[22:47] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Based on the feedback from the community, should we stick to our decision of not installing XChat by default anymore?
[22:47] <meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
[22:47] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:47] <elfy> and votes from the floor are good too matte88 :)
[22:47] <ochosi> yup
[22:47] <matte88> ahahah thanks!
[22:47] <ochosi> ok, so there goes that workitem
[22:48] <ochosi> righty, anything else up for discussion?
[22:48] <elfy> matte88: good to see community joining in :)
[22:49] <elfy> they probably mean more to those of us who do these things than you think ;)
[22:51] <elfy> I love to see people not in -team making their voice heard - adds to the communal value of this 
[22:52] <matte88> the truth is that I didn't know that the vote was asked just to team members :)
[22:53] <ochosi> i was ok with others voting
[22:53] <ochosi> probably also because it was quite unisono
[22:55] <elfy> matte88: doesn't matter to me too much - wouldn't have counted as a vote - but it IS a community member shouting out :)
[22:55] <ochosi> alrighty, since there don't seem to be further discussions, let's end the meeting
[22:55] <ochosi> thanks everyone!
[22:55] <slickymaster> thanks ochosi 
[22:55] <ochosi> #action ochosi to schedule the next meeting
[22:55] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to schedule the next meeting
[22:55] <ochosi> #endmeeting
[22:55] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 11 22:55:52 2014 UTC.  
[22:55] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-12-11-22.01.moin.txt
[22:56] <jjfrv8> slickymaster, hello (belatedly)
[22:56] <slickymaster> lol, np jjfrv8 
[22:58] <ochosi> ok, minutes are up
[22:58] <elfy> awesome - thanks ochosi :)
[22:59] <ochosi> matte88: just some quick questions, if you have time
[23:00] <ochosi> how would you like to contribute or what areas of interest do you have wrt xubuntu?
[23:00] <elfy> ochosi: quick one - assuming that we inly let one *name* chair - next up is Unit193 ?
[23:01] <ochosi> yeah true
[23:01] <ochosi> forgot about that
[23:01] <ochosi> i wouldn't mind if Unit193 chairs the next one, especially as it'd help with rotating the timezones a bit more
[23:01] <elfy> never forget when Unit193 is next :p
[23:01] <ochosi> Unit193: would you mind?
[23:01] <elfy> noooooooooooo
[23:02] <elfy> not a question :D
[23:02] <ochosi> it was a rhetorical question
[23:02] <elfy> phew ... 
[23:03] <ochosi> also, if Unit193 is "in the zone" and coding away, i don't really want to disturb him
[23:03] <Unit193> I like the idea of ochosi doing it more. :P
[23:03] <ochosi> why am i not surprised...
[23:03] <elfy> ochosi: I'll remind him in the morning when he's had no sleep :p
[23:03] <ochosi> huhu, do that
[23:04] <elfy> heh
[23:05]  * elfy is trying very hard to get elfy to be chair JUST prior to A2 :)
[23:06] <ochosi> we can always create anomalies in the order of meeting-chairs for events like that
[23:07] <ochosi> bbabl
[23:07] <ochosi> elfy: don't forget about the tiling-bug screenshot btw!
[23:07] <ochosi> ->
[23:08] <elfy> ochosi: I will try and screencast it too
[23:08] <elfy> anyway - getting on now 
[23:09] <Unit193> Right, so don't want to put it too soon as there seems to be not much on the agenda.  I could do it next week, or the 22nd.
[23:09] <Unit193> 22:00 UTC sounds great, though.
[23:10] <elfy> 2200UTC usually sound ok to me 
[23:10] <slickymaster> I'm ok with that hour also
[23:11] <elfy> but it is good to try and get meeting times that bluesabre can make
[23:12] <elfy> I'll set my *next* one to a day off at a good time for hime
[23:18] <matte88> guys, can I ask you some questions?
[23:20] <slickymaster> shoot matte88 
[23:20] <elfy> that's a bit harsh :(
[23:20] <elfy> :)
[23:21] <slickymaster> go for it matte88 ;)
[23:21] <matte88> I'd like to get involved in xubuntu development
[23:21] <matte88> what should I do?
[23:22] <elfy> matte88: it really does depend on what 
[23:22] <elfy> a - you can do
[23:22] <elfy> b - you want to do
[23:23] <elfy> c - what needs to be done
[23:23] <elfy> :)
[23:23] <matte88> ok..I'd like to code, since I'm a computer engineer
[23:23] <elfy> xubuntu isn't xfce - though it is symbiotic
[23:23] <matte88> (young and unexperienced XD)
[23:24] <elfy> right - so I am not the person to talk with :)
[23:26] <Unit193> It's all voodoo to elfy, though bluesabre would be good.
[23:26] <elfy> \o/ 
[23:26] <matte88> allright :)..we had this conversation last week and someone told me "join the meeting"
[23:26] <matte88> here I am :)
[23:27] <ali1234> matte88: you have two options really, either packaging or working upstream
[23:27] <ali1234> they don't really overlap much
[23:28] <matte88> could you explain the differences?
[23:28] <ali1234> well working upstream means working on the software, fixing bugs and adding features
[23:28] <ali1234> packaging means taking the source code from upstream and turning it into a debian package for installation on ubuntu
[23:29] <ali1234> and perhaps adding some patches to fix any incompatibilities
[23:29] <Unit193> I do the latter, ali1234 does the former.
[23:29] <matte88> oh! both of them are interesting to me!
[23:29] <ali1234> yes, i have absolutely no idea how to make packages :)
[23:30] <matte88> I'd like to start with working upstream, if possible
[23:30] <ali1234> okay, what knowledge/experience do you have already?
[23:32] <matte88> I like mostly working with C/C++ and Java, but I don't mind using other languages
[23:33] <ali1234> do you know Gtk+?
[23:34] <ali1234> Xfce is written in C and Gtk+, and uses autoconf for build system and git for VCS
[23:35] <matte88> i just know that is a toolkit for GUIs
[23:35] <ali1234> are you familiar with GUI programming in general? if so it's easy enough to pick up
[23:36] <matte88> umh I have a little experience with Visual C++ and C# on Win (sorry about that :D )
[23:37] <ali1234> hmm...
[23:37] <ali1234> do you have anything in mind that you want to work on? like a specific bug that affects you?
[23:37] <ali1234> that's where most people start
[23:39] <matte88> maybe..I use xubuntu 14.04 and this is what I noticed many times
[23:39] <matte88> 1 - using chrome
[23:39] <matte88> 2 - lock the screen
[23:40] <matte88> 3 - unlock the screen, then an error message pops up telling me that a crash has been reported and the window asks me wheter I wan to relaunch chrome or close it
[23:40] <ochosi> hm, that is not an easy one to fix
[23:41] <ali1234> you don't want to start with screen locking, trust me
[23:41] <ochosi> i'd recommend a more contained issue
[23:41] <matte88> after this I have to launch again chrome because it doesn't work anymore
[23:41] <matte88> ok ok..that's just the bug that came to my mind 
[23:42] <elfy> Unit193: you going for next week at 2200 ?
[23:42] <ali1234> well, i could walk you through triage for that
[23:42] <ali1234> but it might turn out to be unfixable
[23:43] <matte88> or maybe you could suggest me other bugs to fix
[23:43] <matte88> why unfixable?
[23:43] <ali1234> because screen locking is really really complicated
[23:44]  * elfy would want to be all over any meeting in week starting 19th Jan
[23:44] <ali1234> i can walk you through the process of fixing a known bug
[23:44] <ali1234> ie what happened and how it got fixed
[23:45] <matte88> sounds good
[23:46] <ali1234> i actually just found a new bug :(
[23:46] <ali1234> okay, have you got about an hour free for this?
[23:46] <elfy> is that not good though ali1234 ? 
[23:46] <ali1234> elfy: it's meh
[23:46] <elfy> before bert found it ... 
[23:47] <ali1234> bert?
[23:47] <elfy> most are ali1234 - I just find bugs
[23:47] <Unit193> elfy: I could go for a day next week, or the 22nd.  DIdn't know what'd work better for others.
[23:47] <elfy> ali1234: bert is foo for the old amongst me :)
[23:48] <elfy> later in day is good for me. I just think an earlier one soon would be good to see bluesabre 
[23:49] <elfy> I can set mine to suit him though
[23:49] <Unit193> Meh, so looking like the 19th, alright.
[23:50] <matte88> ali1234 are you talking to me?
[23:50] <ali1234> matte88: yes
[23:50] <elfy> matte88: he is :)
[23:50] <matte88> "<ali1234> okay, have you got about an hour free for this?"
[23:50] <ali1234> yes
[23:51] <elfy> Unit193: wfm tbh 
[23:51] <knome> oh bah;
[23:51] <matte88> not now unfortunately (I'm working while I'm talking to you guys )
[23:51] <knome> i didn't expect to be away this long
[23:52] <knome> and yeah, i should send the QA process mail
[23:52] <ali1234> okay, no problem
[23:52] <ali1234> just ping me when you have some spare time
[23:52] <matte88> are you free later?
[23:52] <ali1234> no, it's midnight here
[23:52] <matte88> oh, I'm sorry!
[23:53] <matte88> 3:53 pm here :)
[23:53] <ali1234> so what i was going to do is show you a bug in 14.04 that we've already fixed
[23:54] <matte88> ok! which bug?
[23:54] <ali1234> the bug is in mousepad, if you open a file, edit it, then file->revert, you get an error message even though it did revert the file
[23:54] <ali1234> so then i was going to show you how to download the mousepad source, trace the bug, fix it, and make a patch
[23:55] <ali1234> this is a really easy bug so someone already sent a patch upstream for it, but it's illustrative of the process
[23:55] <brainwash> you should write a howto article
[23:55] <ali1234> perhaps i'll do that
[23:56] <ali1234> i was going to make you find the actual problem though :)
[23:56] <brainwash> which problem?
[23:57] <ali1234> the problem causing the bug of course :)
[23:57] <ali1234> if i told you what it was, that would spoil the fun
[23:59] <matte88> ali1234, you can start telling me something, then we could continue another time