[06:26] <mapito> hi all
[06:27] <mapito> switchover time eh
[06:27] <mapito> or are daftykins  and zmoylan-1i  still around/;P
[08:21] <Azelphur> OT question, does anyone know what the penalty is for bringing items above the duty free limit back to UK without declaring?
[08:22] <Azelphur> eg the limit is £390 if I come back with £450 worth of stuff and don't declare it, what happens?
[08:47] <DJones> Azelphur: https://www.gov.uk/customs-seizures/get-your-things-back
[08:48] <DJones> Looks like if you get picked up, they can seize the goods but you can ask for them back after paying duty and maybe a penalty
[08:48] <Azelphur> ah
[08:48] <DJones> Not sure whether you can send a postal request to get them back from Guantanamo bay though
[09:56] <foobarry> google+ is down?
[09:56] <foobarry> ah up now. was down for 5 mins
[09:57] <zmoylan-pi> and as the only person to notice you get a prize :-P
[09:57] <nigelb> I'm surprised anyone noticed :P
[09:58] <foobarry> i was rtying to access my photos
[10:01] <popey> Morning all
[10:01] <popey> everyone says that when G+ goes down
[10:02] <foobarry> heh
[10:02] <zmoylan-pi> but with googles resources and so few users you'd expect better uptime
[10:02] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Wright Brothers Day! :-D
[10:04] <popey> so few users
[10:04] <popey> right
[10:04] <popey> people who don't use it say that
[10:06] <zmoylan-pi> how often does it say on a news item 'and the news first appeared in a post on g+'...
[10:06] <zmoylan-pi> that's not a measure of success by any means but it is... something
[10:07] <popey> how is that a measure of how many people use it?
[10:07] <popey> half a billion are on it
[10:07] <zmoylan-pi> intentionally?
[10:07] <zmoylan-pi> :-)
[10:07] <popey> thats not "nobody" nor "ghost town" as many describe it
[10:07] <popey> who cares
[10:07] <popey> my mum is only on facebook because the rest of the family are
[10:07] <popey> she wouldn't have chosen to use it
[10:07] <zmoylan-pi> shot themselves in foot with nymwars, would have really suited me up to that point
[10:07] <popey> meh
[10:08] <popey> still "I don't use it therefore nobody does"
[10:08] <popey> still wrong
[10:08] <zmoylan-pi> i don't use it so it's irrelevent is more my argument :-)
[10:08] <zmoylan-pi> ditto facebook and their silly numbers of users :-)
[10:09] <popey> i'm only on fb for family stuff
[10:09] <zmoylan-pi> does seem to be fb's punishment alright
[10:09] <popey> wikipedia claims 860M active users on fb vs 540M active users on G+
[10:09] <popey> not bad in 3 years
[10:09] <zmoylan-pi> their definition of active is... suspect
[10:10] <foobarry> compare the g+ and fb android downloads on play store?
[10:10] <popey> G+ is default on android now
[10:10] <popey> fb isnt
[10:10] <popey> which skews things
[10:10] <awilkins> That's not fair becuase G+ is in the default app set
[10:10] <zmoylan-pi> there's lies, damned lies and then theirs statistics, and now in the 21st century we have social media engagement numbers :-D
[10:10] <awilkins> And I wouldn't install the Facebook app for Android if you paid me
[10:11] <popey> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.plus
[10:11] <zmoylan-pi> a lot of android devices come with facebook preinstalled
[10:11] <awilkins> TBH I'd very much like Ubuntu phone just for the same reasons I liked my N900
[10:11] <popey> claims 500M-1Bn
[10:11]  * zmoylan-pi seconds the ubuntu phone.  more choice of what runs on it
[10:11] <awilkins> The app store might have been *tiny* compared to Android or iOS
[10:11] <popey> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.katana claims 1Bn - 5Bn
[10:11] <czajkowski> Aloha
[10:11] <awilkins> But I knew that most of the apps in the repo were not there to monetize my personal data
[10:12] <popey> Looking forward to full disk encryption on the ubuntu phone
[10:12] <directhex> java. bloody bloody java.
[10:12] <awilkins> Does each app get a sandboxed encrypted data folder?
[10:13] <awilkins> Each one should get it's own symmetric key and be unable to access the others
[10:13] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:13] <popey> morning czajkowski
[10:13] <zmoylan-pi> and when you have an app that needs to access another apps data?
[10:13] <popey> yes and no
[10:13] <awilkins> If they want to exchange data it should be via dbus
[10:13] <popey> each app is sandboxed
[10:13] <popey> s/dbus/content-hub/
[10:13] <popey> but /home is one partition, so the whole thing could (in the future) be encrypted
[10:14] <popey> it isnt at the moment, but I believe its on the roadmap
[10:14] <awilkins> Accessing each others data is a fragile thing to do anyway
[10:14] <awilkins> Design information exchange as a service, not a rummaging around in someone elses desk
[10:14] <czajkowski> TNT reuses their shipping numbers so looking at delivery for my new laptop it's either in slough or on it's way to guildford
[10:14] <czajkowski> :(
[10:15] <popey> apparmor prevents apps from seeing eachothers daya
[10:15] <czajkowski> popey: top of the morning to you :)
[10:15] <popey> *data
[10:15] <zmoylan-pi> or it could have really taken a beating in transit and some parts are in slough and some parts are in guilford... :-P
[10:16] <czajkowski> zmoylan-pi: do not joke :(
[10:16] <czajkowski> I can almost reach my new X1
[10:16] <czajkowski> I do need for the first time not to completely wipe windows off it
[10:16] <awilkins> Power adapter in Slough, laptop in Guilford?
[10:17] <czajkowski> and do a partial install of Ubuntu on it as seemingly I need to be able to use word for presentaions as libre office doesn;t seem to do the magic
[10:17] <czajkowski> :(
[10:17] <zmoylan-pi> it's delivery time near christmas czajkowski, the horriblest time of the year for deliveries.  fingers crossed it gets there in time for crimbo
[10:17] <popey> wonder what the battery life is like on that under windows
[10:17] <popey> what version of windows does it come with?
[10:17] <awilkins> czajkowski,  I have Windows 7 in a VM for that
[10:17] <popey> word for presentations? sounds odd
[10:18] <czajkowski> popey: powerpoint :(
[10:18] <popey> hehe, open source companies - lol
[10:18] <czajkowski> popey: Marketing!
[10:18] <awilkins> Yeah
[10:18] <czajkowski> all about the pretty presentations
[10:18] <czajkowski> so will see
[10:18] <awilkins> I'm having that problem, even though I'm just writing specs
[10:18] <czajkowski> new odf in google as support could make it a bit easier
[10:18] <awilkins> They want them in the std. document template
[10:19] <czajkowski> I find a bog standard what ever presentation importaed into google right now works fine
[10:19] <awilkins> I tried Markdown ---[pandoc]---> docx
[10:19] <awilkins> But it sucks. Converting it to ODT is marginally better
[10:19] <zmoylan-pi> then google docs instead for presentation?
[10:20] <awilkins> But saving the ODT as docx sucks too
[10:20] <awilkins> The bullets are wrong
[10:20] <awilkins> Like, the glyphs for the bullets are different to the ones Word uses
[10:20] <awilkins> And of course, management insist on using Word / Track Changes as their review & comment tool
[10:20] <awilkins> So you can't escape it
[10:21] <zmoylan-pi> then let management fork out for office365?
[10:21] <awilkins> We have that
[10:21] <zmoylan-pi> so... completely forked then... :-)
[10:21] <awilkins> Just adds another layer of complexity
[10:22] <awilkins> What I was thinking of doing was either writing a Markdown input filter for Word
[10:22] <awilkins> Or writing an output filter for Pandoc that writes a COM automation script that pokes the document into a running instance of Word
[10:22] <awilkins> Since Word is the best thing for writing Word documents and nothing else comes close because it's so horribly complex
[10:22] <bashrc> good moaning
[10:23] <zmoylan-pi> i think even in the days of word 2.0 i used vim as editor and just copied pasted to word when i was finished.
[10:23] <zmoylan-pi> couldn't abide it
[10:23] <awilkins> First problem I ran into is that Pandoc is designed to do HTML, which means that it doesn't have a "you just entered a table" and "you just left a table" kind of event structure in it's output filters
[10:24] <awilkins> Yeah, doing the formatting is driving me buts
[10:24] <awilkins> nuts
[10:24] <awilkins> Just simple things like this one : You have a table. You paste it into an empty Word document
[10:24] <awilkins> Now try inserting a line above the table to put a title in
[10:24] <awilkins> It's possible but non-intuitive
[10:25] <awilkins> You have to put the cursor top-left of the first cell, and hit enter
[10:25] <awilkins> Which inserts a line above the table
[10:25] <zmoylan-pi> like clicking start to shutdown....
[10:25] <awilkins> It's impossible to put the cursor before the table, there's no special key for "insert a line above the cursor" in Word AFAIK
[10:25] <awilkins> In vim I'd just do `O`
[10:26] <awilkins> I had to google that to work it out
[10:27] <awilkins> The people who say that Word is intuitive and other things are hard to learn are just benefitting from years of learned quirks
[10:27] <awilkins> I've hardly used it
[10:27] <awilkins> The largest writing project I ever did with any wordprocessor was my epidemiology paper in med school, and that was with Wordperfect 5.1 for DOS
[10:28] <zmoylan-pi> i think the mean aount of time between me using word these days is at least 1 version :-)
[10:28] <awilkins> LibreOffice does very well at aping Word - it drives me equally insane
[10:28] <zmoylan-pi> i saw wordperfect 5.1 around for a long time after windows came along.  i was the one usually asked to get it working on all the wacky printers that came afterwards
[10:29] <awilkins> Colleague recommends using LibreOffice to save as DOC not DOCX
[10:29] <awilkins> Keep meaning to try that
[10:30] <awilkins> But RARRR to management and their insistence on style over substance
[10:30] <awilkins> Would rather write specs as Markdown in a Gollum wiki and have people actually find them useful, than pretty
[10:31] <willcooke> ali1234, have you played with the ESP8266 yet?
[13:02] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[13:02] <foobarry> whats gollum wiki awilkins
[13:02] <foobarry> high fives bigcalm
[13:05] <zmoylan-pi> https://github.com/gollum/gollum/wiki
[13:08] <foobarry> tis a wiki that supports markdown?
[13:48] <Guest61476> hey guys. i need an analysis tool for xferlogs, but i don't want to install webalizer with /var/www/ stuff,, just a command line tool that will produce a static set of stuff.
[13:49] <Guest61476> just all the crontab entries and things, this is running on my own laptop machine, against downloaded log files. anyone know any nice tools for this?
[13:54] <intrbiz> Guest61476: you can run webalizer in a one shot mode IIRC
[14:20] <ali1234> willcooke: no, never heard of it?
[14:23] <ali1234> reminds me of ATJ2085 though, except with wifi
[14:26] <willcooke> yeah
[14:26] <willcooke> I've just ordered one to play with
[14:26] <willcooke> I think I'll just hook it up to an atmega 329 first
[14:27] <ali1234> just a bare chip?
[14:27] <willcooke> yeah
[14:27] <willcooke> but
[14:27] <willcooke> you can program it as well
[14:27] <willcooke> or talk to it over seria
[14:27] <willcooke> l
[14:27] <willcooke> there's a "blink" for it which looks ok
[14:28] <willcooke> easy enough to code for
[14:28] <willcooke> and it's got a stdc available
[14:28] <willcooke> yet another tool chain though
[14:28] <willcooke> for 2 quid though, I'm going to try it and replace those cheapo 433 Mhz radios
[14:28] <willcooke> (which I'm having no luck with over more than about 2 meters)
[14:28] <ali1234> looks perfect for IoT assuming you can actually get the documentation
[14:28] <willcooke> there's the rub :)
[14:29] <willcooke> looks like a fairly active community around it
[14:29] <ali1234> yeah, there was an active community for ATJ2085 too
[14:29] <willcooke> https://github.com/esp8266/esp8266-wiki
[14:29] <czajkowski> it wasn't in slough it's finally in Guildford :D new laptop!!!
[14:29] <willcooke> http://www.esp8266.com/
[14:29] <ali1234> we never got the proper docs though
[14:30] <willcooke> from what I read this morning, the chip maker are supporting the community a little bit
[14:30] <willcooke> I saw talk of a translated data sheet
[14:30] <ali1234> yes, we got some "support" from actions, they gave us the data sheet with GPIOs etc
[14:31] <ali1234> which i might add we already had
[14:32] <ali1234> the thing about these cheap chinese chips is they'll discontinue it in a year and make a newer, slightly incompatible version
[14:32] <ali1234> and you'll be back to square one
[14:32] <ali1234> i would stay away from this, frankly
[14:33] <willcooke> at 2 quid, I'll take a punt
[14:33] <willcooke> it's only as a toy
[14:34] <ali1234> yep, those cheap MP3 players were not much more expensive than that
[14:34] <ali1234> i have a box full of them, they're junk now
[14:34] <willcooke> :D
[14:34] <ali1234> good learning experience, but i have no desire to mess around wiwth that type of stuff again
[14:37] <zmoylan-pi> i have some really cheap and nasty mp3 players.  some were quite good and some were horrible.
[14:37] <ali1234> how about nRF51822 as a better supported alternative?
[14:37]  * zmoylan-pi glances nastily at bush mp3 player where i had to read the manual to find how to change volume
[15:10]  * awilkins has an iRiver 1GB flash player that's great
[15:10] <awilkins> Takes AAA batteries, play quality is good, plays OGG
[15:14] <zmoylan-pi> 1gb... how did we ever manage? :-)
[15:16] <popey> heh
[15:16] <zmoylan-pi> i think the smallest sitting unused at the mo is 4gb
[15:17] <popey> i miss my ihp-140
[15:17] <shauno> my brother had a player that was roughly the size & weight of a pack of smokes, 32meg.  that was an expensive spin cycle ..
[16:13] <foobarry> popey: my iriver was stolen :(
[16:13] <foobarry> ihp-140
[16:14] <foobarry> however i bought the cowon iaudio 16gb player which i have never knowingly charged
[16:14] <foobarry> has the secret of free energy
[16:14] <foobarry> and great sound
[17:35] <diddledan> the us and cuba are to reestablish diplomatic relations
[17:35] <diddledan> and now I go round parentals
[17:35] <diddledan> tata
[17:51] <shauno> hopefully these aren't related
[21:13] <mapito> apprentice time
[21:13] <mapito> :D
[21:26] <diddledan> allo allo
[22:59] <diddledan> browser ballot in windows is no-more: http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/2019411/en-us?sd=rss&spid=14019
[23:00] <diddledan> I wonder whether that means less folk will switch to non-ie browsers in the future
[23:01] <diddledan> and therefore not discover the wonderful world of open sauce
[23:05] <shauno> lucky them :)  firefox needs to die in fire.
[23:09] <diddledan> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30526406
[23:09] <diddledan> apparently hacktivism works
[23:12] <diddledan> but to be fair, sony has been beaten so hard by the hackers that they're unrecognisable even to a phorensics expert
[23:13] <diddledan> the poo not only hit the fan, but ripped it out of the ceiling and shoved it up sony's bottom
[23:13] <shauno> they should just stick it online
[23:13] <diddledan> </family friendly>
[23:13] <shauno> I know it's kinda against their ethos, but at this point, they've put everything else online ....
[23:14] <zmoylan-pi> or maybe after ploughing through all their downloads they've found something in sonys data sony really doesn't want made public
[23:14] <diddledan> some twit suggested putting it on torrent trackers entitled "complete guardians of peace stolen data dump" or some such
[23:14] <shauno> you're really supposed to rebuild OpenElec to change .. anything?
[23:16] <diddledan> don't use raspbmc they don't verify any downloaded data before replacing files on an update - I expect openelec is similar
[23:17] <shauno> sometimes I really do want to give you a thick ear :)
[23:17] <diddledan> the raspbmc updater is a shell script of the order "download all the things from unverifiable server over clear http. nuke system with downloaded things"
[23:17] <zmoylan-pi> sony level security... :-P
[23:21] <diddledan> I think I recall it even executed a script from the unverified server - again without checking it's velidity
[23:21] <zmoylan-pi> escalating to adobe level...
[23:21] <shauno> hm, it seems this buildsystem is so messed up it's going to need a VM
[23:21] <diddledan> \o/
[23:23] <shauno> why does everyone need their own buildsystem these days?
[23:23] <zmoylan-pi> managers like to point at something and say that they decided on that
[23:24] <diddledan> ok, my mind reads a random twit exclaiming that a football match has gone beyond extra time to the bit where 5 men from each team score a goal against the opposing goalkeeper (unless one of the teams is britain in which case at least one guy misses) and I read an extra space between the L and T leading to a BSDM situation instead of football "penalties"
[23:24] <diddledan> BDSM**
[23:25] <diddledan> shauno, not invented here
[23:25] <directhex> or lack of awareness
[23:25] <diddledan> the openwrt one is strange
[23:26] <diddledan> it uses a menu system similar (or maybe stolen from) the linux kernel
[23:26] <diddledan> +to
[23:27] <shauno> this is starting to make freebsd look sane.  to change sysctl.conf, I have to rebuild every single binary on the system
[23:27] <directhex> menuconfig?
[23:27] <directhex> shauno: i know a number of distros like that
[23:27] <directhex> shauno: there's a method to the madness, if you have 256 machines to make the change on
[23:28] <diddledan> openelec likes to pretend it's a consumer electronic device
[23:28] <shauno> it's hilarious
[23:29] <shauno> eg, they're removed passwd(1)
[23:29] <directhex> shauno: i lol'd
[23:30] <ali1234> i think there's a case to be made for the single-user OS
[23:30] <shauno> this is one of the things that's irking me right now; http://paste.ubuntu.com/9555267/
[23:30] <ali1234> i mean we know now that unix users don't provide an adequate security model anyway
[23:30] <shauno> I have an image with ssh enabled, and u/p root/root
[23:30] <directhex> like i said, i've used systems like that, designed for mass deployment.
[23:30] <ali1234> most of security research now is about how to protect programs from each other when they are all running as the same user
[23:31] <shauno> I'm "not allowed" to change the password.  and the 'tip' to disable password ssh logins - sshd_config is on a read-only squashfs.
[23:32] <diddledan> ali1234, you still need user-separation for concurrent access
[23:32] <ali1234> many devices do not need concurrency, or even multiple user accunts
[23:32] <shauno> "luckily" they've also managed to break ipv6, so at least ssh isn't listening publicly.
[23:33] <ali1234> for example phones
[23:33] <ali1234> nobody shares a mobile phone
[23:33] <zmoylan-pi> a work phone can be shared
[23:34] <zmoylan-pi> different folks having it on a weekend.  not as common now but still done
[23:34] <diddledan> ali1234, not true - I might hand my phone over to my sister for her to call her husband in the instance she forgot hers or just can't find it. I obviously don't want her to open the web browser because I was watching pr0n on there the previous night
[23:34] <diddledan> a second user account in that instance would be awesome
[23:35] <shauno> curious - if she wanted to send an email on your laptop, would you bother to play the Guest Login dance?
[23:35] <zmoylan-pi> just install and bury a separate browser on the device, all nasty searches go through that
[23:35] <ali1234> diddledan: no it wouldn't, you just need guest mode or kid mode
[23:35] <diddledan> ali1234, that's a separate user account
[23:35] <ali1234> it doesn't have to be
[23:36] <shauno> kid mode on the iphone isn't a separate account.  you just lock them into a single app
[23:36] <ali1234> if you already have app sandboxing anyway, also making it a different user account adds no benefit, just complexity
[23:36] <ali1234> and app sandboxing is a requirement these days
[23:38] <ali1234> this is even more true if your app sandboxing is implemented with containers, then you're effectively running a whole different OS, why do you need users?
[23:39] <diddledan> android does it as separate user accounts because there's a LOT in android that is tied to an "identity" which is shared between apps - the simplest way to allow other people to use the phone/tablet without also allowing access to unexpected things was and is a separate user account which can also be locked-down if the owner wishes
[23:39] <ali1234> okay, but android has a lot of compromises around the linux/unix model
[23:39] <ali1234> it isn't necessary to do it that way
[23:40] <diddledan> no, but it's the obvious way
[23:40] <shauno> well, http://lakka.tv/ looks neat, but sticking it on top of openelec seems to be a dealbreaker for me
[23:40] <ali1234> sure, the obvious way isn't necessarily the best way though :)
[23:40] <shauno> especially when it's half-finished, sitting on a read-only filesystem is a luxury they can't afford
[23:40] <diddledan> I don't care about hypotheticals which are unlikely to ever happen and likely to behave in a manner that people don't expect
[23:41] <ali1234> i don't think you can argue that most people expect everything to use the unix user permissions model
[23:44] <diddledan> user-level separation is obviously the simplest way to .. separate users. why should I log out of facebook and log out of google and log out of twitter and log out of IRC and tell all those things never to remember my password for my sanity just because my nephew wants to play a game?
[23:45] <diddledan> surely it's obvious that I give him a different environment
[23:46] <ali1234> i don't know. i mean that's exactly what you have to do using the unix user model
[23:46] <diddledan> no it isn't
[23:46] <ali1234> you log out, go to the login screen, someone else logs in
[23:46] <diddledan> no
[23:46] <ali1234> a much better solution would be to boot up a container
[23:46] <diddledan> I lock my account. someone else rocks up and logs into theirs or a guest
[23:47] <ali1234> this does not have to be implemented using unix user accounts
[23:47] <diddledan> my applications run in the background. theirs run in the foreground. they don't interact but are separated by my identity being not theirs
[23:48] <ali1234> this can be entirely implemented with a single user OS with a container per user
[23:48] <diddledan> per user. user-level separation.
[23:48] <diddledan> we've got that already!
[23:48] <ali1234> and quite likely will be more secure that way
[23:49] <diddledan> I don't care whether it's enforced by the kernel or enforced by the kernel. either way it's enforced by the kernel and I have an account and my guests have an account - how is that not user-level separation?!
[23:50] <ali1234> it is
[23:50] <diddledan> you're comparing apples to apples - they're all damned apples!
[23:50] <ali1234> it just isn't using unix users
[23:52] <intrbiz> LXC runs the container as a different unix user
[23:52] <diddledan> I need a way for the host system to direct the interactions from one user to one "container" (in your model) and another user to a different container - they both need to access the same input and output devices so the host os needs to know which user is using it - unix users?
[23:54] <ali1234> if your host/hypervisor is unix then sure, but why does it have to be?
[23:54] <ali1234> even if it is, the stuff running inside the container doesn't need to be
[23:57] <diddledan> I just don't see the need to reinvent the wheel
[23:57] <ali1234> this isn't re-inventing the wheel
[23:58] <ali1234> the wheel has already been re-invented and it is called app sandboxing and containers and now you have spare wheels that don't do anything but need mainenance all the time anyway
[23:58] <diddledan> user-level separation is perfectly suitable to separate users. you're suggesting we don't separate users but instead separate users.
[23:58] <shauno> it's more like arguing over whether to seperate them with fences or walls
[23:59] <shauno> either way you're still trying to pretend a phone is a 1960's timesharing system
[23:59] <ali1234> no, it's more like arguing between walls or walls and fences