[00:00] <diddledan> what benefit does the fence give you that the wall can't do on it's own?
[00:00] <ali1234> none
[00:00] <diddledan> bingo
[00:00] <diddledan> so don't bother!
[00:00] <ali1234> fences are unix users and walls are containers
[00:00] <diddledan> it's extra work just to use the fancy shiny
[00:00] <diddledan> no, walls are unix users. fences are sandboxes
[00:00] <ali1234> lol no
[00:01] <ali1234> unix user permissions don't cut it any more
[00:01] <diddledan> and we're back where we came in
[00:01] <diddledan> why?
[00:01] <diddledan> why do you think unix users are crap?

[00:02] <ali1234> unix user permissions cannot stop some random fart app from deleting your ~
[00:02] <diddledan> what about them is unfit for purpose
[00:02] <diddledan> yes they can
[00:03] <ali1234> no, they can't
[00:03] <diddledan> they just don't the way people use them
[00:03] <ali1234> so you are suggesting that people should run eery app as a different user account?
[00:03] <diddledan> I'm not advocating it
[00:04] <shauno> this has always been the scary gap in permissions for me
[00:04] <shauno> people say unix is malware-proof because random trash can't get root (usually)
[00:04] <ali1234> the unix user model being unsuitable for modern computer users is not a controversial idea
[00:04] <shauno> which is completely back-to-front.  I don't care if it gets root.  I can reinstall my OS.
[00:05] <shauno> I care if it trashes my pictures.  which are owned by my user, so are completely unprotected by 1970-style permissions
[00:05] <ali1234> exactly
[00:05] <ali1234> and once you've solved this problem, whatever way you do it, the new thing will obsolete unix users
[00:05] <diddledan> no it won't
[00:06] <diddledan> the new thing will isolate one app from another, not one user from another
[00:06] <diddledan> unless you're suggesting everyone installs modern warfare in a separate sandbox just for them?
[00:06] <diddledan> (hint. modern warfare is 55GB)
[00:07] <ali1234> the binaries, sure
[00:07] <ali1234> modern filesystems can deduplicate that stuff without needing to know about users
[00:07] <diddledan> deduplication takes a LOT of RAM and CPU
[00:09] <diddledan> I don't believe my phone has that much grunt
[00:09] <diddledan> (and games on phones are often larger than 1GB each, so don't moan that the argument is moot)
[00:10] <ali1234> wrong. all it takes is copy-on-write
[00:10] <ali1234> and that takes only a tiny amount of resources
[00:10] <diddledan> er. no.
[00:10] <diddledan> download the game twice you have the game twice
[00:11] <ali1234> right, why would you need to download it twice?
[00:11] <diddledan> because I download it in my private app area which isn't a user account, and my brother downloads it in his private app area which isn't a user account
[00:12] <ali1234> why would you do that?
[00:12] <diddledan> you advocated containers earlier - inside a container my brother can't access the app I installed in my container
[00:12] <ali1234> i mean you can do that with unix users, if you install stuff in ~, but why would you?
[00:13] <ali1234> no
[00:13] <ali1234> each container only runs ONE app
[00:14] <ali1234> that's the whole point
[00:14] <diddledan> in which case how do we both access the same app at the same time with different data?!
[00:14] <ali1234> okay.
[00:15] <ali1234> you know VMware appliances right?
[00:15] <ali1234> each app is a VMware appliance. anyone can run it. when you run it, it saves the differences to a private file for you
[00:15] <ali1234> your host OS has some concept of users, but it doesn't need unix users, or even a filesystem
[00:16] <ali1234> the OS that runs inside the containers doesn't need to know about user accounts AT ALL
[00:16] <ali1234> it only needs to know "this is the base image and this is the user's changes"
[00:16] <ali1234> ie it's transparent to the guest
[00:17] <ali1234> and for sharing files between containers you use something like ubuntu's content hub
[00:17] <ali1234> which would be built into the host
[00:19] <ali1234> and of course the containers can build on top of each other
[00:20] <diddledan> so now lets ask the question again. in what way, are unix users not suitable for the host to separate the users?
[00:20] <ali1234> they're fine for that
[00:20] <ali1234> the point is that you don't need them in the guest. at all
[00:20] <ali1234> and they just add unneccessary complexity that you don't need
[00:21] <ali1234> also, they are actually MORE than you need on the host
[00:21] <ali1234> because the host doesn't even need a traditional filesystem, let alone permissions
[00:21] <ali1234> so on the host you would replace them with something simpler
[00:21] <ali1234> simpler is better, less attack surface
[00:22] <diddledan> new is worse, unproven
[00:22] <ali1234> that is also true
[00:22] <ali1234> however, we can't just end all progress because "new is worse"
[00:23] <diddledan> no, but we're talking about things that can already be done with preexisting tech, so why reinvent the wheel
[00:24] <ali1234> this is simply the logical conclusion of what happens when you container-ize everything
[00:24] <ali1234> this stuff can't be entirely done with existing tech, that's the point
[00:24] <ali1234> it's still being created as we speak
[00:26] <diddledan> apparmor has existed for years. user-level separation has existed much longer. containers/vms have also been around for ages. the only thing that didn't until recently was content-hub but you don't need that, you _can_ do it with standard unix filesystems and permissions
[00:27] <diddledan> for that last one. read, ACLs and/or judicious bind-mounting
[00:27] <ali1234> yes, you can, if you don't mind the technical debt incurred by using 50 year old technology in a way it wasn't intended :P
[00:28] <ali1234> at some point though you are going to have to refactor everything to not suck
[00:28] <shauno> I still don't get why you'd want users on a phone at all
[00:28] <ali1234> shauno: in the most abstract sense, "guest" is a user
[00:29] <zmoylan-pi> just because it's a feature you'd never use doesn't mean someone won't find it really useful
[00:29] <shauno> well, I mean I don't see much use for a 'guest' either
[00:29] <ali1234> the point is you wouldn't expose these users to the... user
[00:29] <ali1234> unless you were actually making a multiuser mainframe for some reason
[00:32] <diddledan> I seriously hope you don't think that user-less is the way to go on the server
[00:32] <ali1234> what kind of server?
[00:32] <shauno> that's probably the best example of where "container all the things" is already happening
[00:32] <diddledan> for argument, a web serving host
[00:32] <ali1234> exactly
[00:33] <ali1234> okay, say you have a website which consists of one container running mysql, and one container running apache/php/wordpress
[00:33] <ali1234> why do you need users?
[00:33] <ali1234> given that each server is running exactly one process, how are you even going to make use of more than one user?
[00:34] <diddledan> because I want the dba to be able to restart apache and I want the sysad to be able to restart apache and mysql and I want myself to be able to grant and revoke those permissions
[00:34] <diddledan> dba - mysql, not apache
[00:34] <diddledan> but you get the point
[00:34] <ali1234> if you want to restart then, you just reboot the container
[00:34] <ali1234> there is no need to ever even log into the containers
[00:35] <ali1234> so you have users in your host/control node and nowhere else
[00:35] <diddledan> but I want the dba to not be able to restart apache
[00:35] <diddledan> bingo. you have users
[00:35] <ali1234> yes
[00:35] <ali1234> you still have users
[00:35] <ali1234> just not inside any of the containers
[00:36] <ali1234> where "container" implies an entire virtual machine running a totally isolated operating system which has no concept of users
[00:38] <diddledan> so when my php app gets pwned the guy that now has access to the server is de-facto root and therefore can exploit any weaknesses in the lxc subsystem with impunity to elevate to host-root?
[00:38] <diddledan> or otherwise access the kernel
[00:39] <ali1234> if you have no users you have no root user
[00:40] <diddledan> yes, you do, because the lxc host kernel has users
[00:40] <diddledan> just because you choose not to assign uids doesn't mean the kernel doesn't track them
[00:40] <ali1234> who said we're using lxc?
[00:41] <diddledan> uml then?
[00:41] <diddledan> chroot?
[00:41] <ali1234> this weakness of lxc happens BECAUSE it re-uses unix users
[00:41] <ali1234> we would be using a yet-to-be-written hypervisor and a yet-to-be-written single user guest kernel
[00:42] <ali1234> specifically designed to be used this way
[00:42] <diddledan> that's not a container. that's a vm
[00:42] <ali1234> it's more like a hybrid
[00:42] <ali1234> it isn't quite like anything that currently exists
[00:42] <diddledan> semantics, yes, but container is a specific thing that reuses the host kernel
[00:43] <ali1234> well okay, forget containers. what we're talking about is a specially designed system where the host and the guest and more tightly coupled than you expect with a VM, but less so than with a container
[00:43] <ali1234> that is, the host and guest kernels are aware of each other but not the same
[00:44] <ali1234> the guest kernel would be extremely simple, it would not need any device drivers for example
[00:45] <ali1234> that would be provided by the host, where appropriate
[00:46] <ali1234> it wouldn't need to know about block devices and such, the host would just say "this is your read-only root filesystem, and this is your read-write filesystem"
[01:36] <ali1234> awesome, i have input now
[01:47] <daftykins> \o/
[01:51] <ali1234> reconciling the iterative game loop with object oriented event input
[01:55] <diddledan> ooh, ooei :-p
[02:46] <daftykins> ^quit message as bad as brand-specific email signatures :(
[02:47] <diddledan> related: hang on, let me find the email and figure out if there's an archive link for it - I received it a few days ago and it made me laugh
[02:51] <diddledan> sent to ubuntu uk mailing list in reply to popey's attempt to reinvigorate the loco - referencing open source in general and how to get more people using ubuntu: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2014-December/038123.html
[02:51] <diddledan> it was head-smacking time for me when I read it
[02:52] <daftykins> "digital eagles" 0o
[02:52] <diddledan> yeah I didn't get that one either
[02:52] <diddledan> when you see it...
[02:53] <daftykins> *nod* pretty amusing to be commenting like that then use hotmail :(
[02:53] <daftykins> then possibly a Windows only client too
[02:53] <diddledan> it's pretty explicit: Sent from Windows Mail
[02:55] <daftykins> yeah i meant that for that part
[03:23] <diddledan> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/asia/us-links-north-korea-to-sony-hacking.html
[03:27] <diddledan> I like the last paragraph which alludes to an all-out cyberwar - that could be fun to watch.. I wonder if american GIs will be holed-up in a darkened bunker with the only illumination coming from the many computer screens showing the progress of their attacks and counter-attacks and the state of the nation's cyber defences
[03:32] <daftykins> ;)
[03:32] <daftykins> Wargames (1983)
[04:18] <diddledan> for anyone who likes google play movies/tv - they're giving away a free movie right now - they gave me the first "sherlock holmes" movie with iron-man robert downey jr (I'm unsure whether they're giving everyone or whether it was just me)#
[04:18] <diddledan> everyone that title**
[04:20] <diddledan> I'm just about to watch "lucy" now
[04:23] <daftykins> hrmm something new to the shaun the sheep thing last time :>
[04:24] <diddledan> yeah, that shaun the sheep is sat in my account never to be watched
[04:24] <daftykins> it was fun!
[04:28] <daftykins> ah yesh sherlock holmes
[04:28] <daftykins> but it won't let me buy a free item because my card has expired
[04:35] <diddledan> hmm
[04:35] <diddledan> that's weird - you can't get a freebie unless they have your balls?
[04:36] <diddledan> sorry. family.
[04:36] <daftykins> tsk tsk
[06:12] <bujji> popey:
[06:12] <bujji> popey:i have a problem with wifi.
[06:13] <diddledan> and only popey knows how to fix it?
[06:13] <bujji> diddledan:you can help me.
[06:14] <diddledan> I can? thanks.
[06:14] <mapito> morning
[06:14] <diddledan> allo mapito
[06:14] <bujji> diddledan: wifi is not able to enable
[06:14] <diddledan> mapito, have you gone italian?
[06:14] <mapito> no heh
[06:14] <mapito> just my alt nick
[06:16] <diddledan> theoretically I don't need to do any work today - everyone else is heading off on the company xmas party, but for some reason there's a requirement for a passport, and I didn't get around to applying
[06:16] <diddledan> my old one is out of date
[06:16] <mapito> why a passport
[06:16] <mapito> where you going
[06:16] <diddledan> no idea
[06:17] <diddledan> something they're getting up to requires it and the person who organised it hasn't let on what the plan is
[06:18] <bujji> diddledan:help me please...
[06:18] <diddledan> bujji, I need more to go on than just "is not able to enable"
[06:19] <diddledan> bujji, my suspicion is that you have a hardware switch which is in the wrong position
[06:19] <diddledan> bujji, you're more likely to find someone who knows about these things in #ubuntu at 6:20am in the uk
[06:21] <bujji> diddledan: i click on network section-->there i cant be able on the wifi
[06:22] <diddledan> that's not very descriptive
[06:23] <diddledan> (or if you're using the MS Word spelling and grammar checker and you want to avoid receiving that damned passive voice alert on every single phrase, then "that's very undescriptive"
[06:25] <bujji> diddledan:I cant be able to enable the wifi in my ubuntu desktop.I tried to use fn+f2 for enable the wifi,but its not working...hope you got my point.
[06:26] <diddledan> bujji, has it ever worked?
[06:27] <bujji> diddledan:yes,It worked before.
[06:27] <mapito> diddledan,  sounds intriguing needing a passport.
[06:28] <diddledan> bujji, what did you do differently this time that you didn't on previous occasions? e.g. pressing that fn+f2 combo you mentioned
[06:29] <diddledan> also did you press fn+f2 before trying anything else expecting it to magicly work or did you use ubuntu's networking menu first and resort to the fn+f2 when you couldn't get it working?
[06:30] <bujji> diddledan: fn+f2 is for enable the wifi(short cut).I tried to check manually but its not working.
[06:30] <diddledan> bujji, which did you do first
[06:31] <bujji> diddledan:fn+f2
[06:31] <diddledan> bujji, that'll be your problem then
[06:31] <diddledan> you've told the hardware to turn off the wifi
[06:32] <bujji> i went to network options to enable the wifi,there i cant be able to enable.
[06:32] <bujji> gui
[06:33] <diddledan> once you've done that no amount of ubuntu cleverness can work around it - you need to turn the chip back-on such as by rebooting (if that works), pressing fn+f2 again once (and praying) or cursing and swearing because neither of those two worked and you realise there's no other way to enable the chip without going into windows
[06:35] <bujji> i tried  $ifconfig wlan0 up
[06:36] <diddledan> fn+f2 is specific to your laptop and doesn't signal ubuntu at all - it completely sidesteps the operating system and tells the hardware to turn off in such a manner that the operating system cannot talk to it anymore
[06:37] <bujji> it is a shortcut specification to enable wifi.
[06:38] <diddledan> no amount of fiddling with ifconfig or any other ubuntu utility will be able to do anything with the chip while it's turned off
[06:39] <diddledan> you might be able to get one of the utilities to report that the hardware is turned off but I can't remember which utility or how to get that info
[06:39] <diddledan> even though it can tell you the hardware is turned off the utility cannot turn it back on, nothing in ubuntu can
[06:40] <mapito> what card has he got
[06:40] <diddledan> no idea, he said it worked previously and then he pressed the magic keycombo and it stopped working
[06:41] <diddledan> or rather didn't enable.
[06:41] <diddledan> his words^^
[06:42] <mapito> what card bujji
[06:42] <diddledan> afaict none of those magic keycombos ever signal the operating system with their implementation being either entirely hardware or bios driven
[06:43] <bujji> mapito:how can i found?
[06:44] <mapito> lspci i think\?
[06:44] <diddledan> yes, `lspci`
[06:45] <bujji> might be
[06:46] <bujji> mapito:help me on this.
[06:49] <diddledan> a random unnamed googler says that google is going to have a "disastrous" 2015
[06:49] <diddledan> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/googles-very-rough-transition-nicholas
[06:49] <diddledan> excuse my language, but I think that's a load of traffic cones!
[06:49] <diddledan> (bollards)
[06:50] <diddledan> ex googler at that
[06:50] <mapito> bujji, run lspci sheesh
[06:51] <bujji> mapito:what this command do.
[06:53] <bujji> mapito it gives me different options.
[06:55] <bujji> mapito:hey
[06:57] <diddledan> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1510557_316261935243706_2025905013926039893_n.jpg?oh=729535754c86c0a45d45abc312b30dd3&oe=553934A0&__gda__=1430421819_0f33a99f581f80557f0f1c73261cc4a0
[06:58] <bujji> diddledan:?
[06:58] <diddledan> yes?
[06:59] <bujji> diddledan:whats that url.
[06:59] <diddledan> it's an image
[07:00] <bujji> okey
[07:04] <bujji> mapito:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VVosf9p5GM
[07:04] <bujji> diddledan:is this work for me.
[07:04] <mapito> so u fixed it?
[07:04] <mapito> cool
[07:05] <mapito> lspci wont give options but it will tell you what your wireless card is
[07:05] <mapito> so you can find out more etc
[07:06] <bujji> mapito:not yet
[07:07] <mapito> find out what the card is and look at the ubuntuforums
[07:07] <mapito> ubuntuforums.org v helpful
[07:12] <bujji> mapito:no luck
[07:14] <mapito> what card is it according to lspci output
[07:14] <mapito> put that and ubuntu into google:D
[07:14] <mapito> i dunno what card it is
[07:15] <diddledan> what's the collective noun for a group of velociraptors?
[07:15] <diddledan> I thought maybe a herd, flock, gaggle or murder
[07:16] <diddledan> I came up with them in that order
[07:19] <bujji> mapito:how can i check that card and all
[07:23] <bujji> mapito:hey
[07:33] <bujji> mapito:my output of rfkill
[07:33] <bujji> mapito:rfkill list all
[07:34] <bujji> mapito: o/p  0:phy0:wireless LAN
[07:34] <bujji> soft blocked:no
[07:34] <bujji> hard blocked:yes
[07:36] <diddledan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHIWcRU38ls I'm laughing hard
[07:36] <diddledan> bujji, like I said 2 hours ago!
[07:37] <diddledan> hard blocked:yes means you turned it off
[07:39] <bujji> :mapito:how can i turn it on.
[07:41] <bujji> diddledan:how can i turn on
[07:41] <diddledan> I told you that ages ago
[07:41] <diddledan> [06:33:51] <diddledan> once you've done that no amount of ubuntu cleverness can work around it - you need to turn the chip back-on such as by rebooting (if that works), pressing fn+f2 again once (and praying) or cursing and swearing because neither of those two worked and you realise there's no other way to enable the chip without going into windows
[07:43] <bujji> I reboot the system and did the same as fn+f2
[07:43] <bujji> diddledan:but no luck
[07:44] <diddledan> then I don't know
[07:45] <bujji> diddledan:chip back-on ??
[08:08] <bujji> diddledan:success
[08:09] <bujji> diddledan:thanks for your help
[08:09] <diddledan> how did you fix it?
[08:09] <bujji> diddledan:http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2220855&page=4
[08:12] <bujji> diddledan: you are helpful-->http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2220855
[08:14] <bujji> diddledan:happy christmas
[08:16] <bujji> diddledan:bye.see you again.))
[09:34] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:37] <bashrc> morning
[09:39] <foobarry> hi
[09:57] <davmor2> morning all
[09:57] <davmor2> bigcalm: how's life and have you built the super star destroyer yet or better still figured out where the hell you put something that big
[09:58] <bigcalm> Hi davmor2
[09:58] <bigcalm> davmor2: you're more interested in the SSD than I am...
[09:59] <davmor2> bigcalm: that's cause I was seriously tempted to buy till I realised I'd have to put it somewhere and you are the only person I know who has it :)
[10:00] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Free Shipping Day! :-D
[10:00] <davmor2> bigcalm: I'm living my dream of building it though you ;)
[10:02]  * davmor2 wraps JamesTait and his family and sends them to South Africa with his free shipping......Good luck getting back but have a lovely family Christmas while you are there :)
[10:02]  * JamesTait tries to hug davmor2 but can't get past the packaging.
[10:02]  * davmor2 throws in JamesTait laptop so he has no excuse not to work
[10:03] <JamesTait> Hah!
[10:03] <davmor2> JamesTait: I'm not getting you out of work and a free holiday
[10:04] <bigcalm> davmor2: https://twitter.com/bigcalm/status/545519810059436032/photo/1
[10:04]  * JamesTait adds davmor2 to the Christmas card list.
[10:04] <bigcalm> My office isn't very large
[10:05] <davmor2> bigcalm: suspend it from the ceiling is as far as I got trying to figure out where the hell to put it but when you realise it is 8KG that isn't the best option out there :)
[10:06] <bigcalm> That's a lot of plastic
[10:07] <davmor2> bigcalm: the other option is get a bit of ply wood cut to the right length and width suspend that from the ceiling and then put the model onto that, that would work
[10:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: how are you with measurements and a drill?
[10:09] <davmor2> and finding joists preferably
[10:11] <davmor2> bigcalm: also you seem to be overlooking the width of it :)
[10:12] <bigcalm> I thought it was long and thin
[10:12] <bigcalm> What's the width?
[10:12] <davmor2> bigcalm: it is wedge shaped the widest bit will be your issue
[10:13] <bigcalm> Which is? :)
[10:20] <davmor2> bigcalm: you know what nothing says only mentions it's length but I'm assuming about 40 cm's looking at the proportions in pictures
[10:22] <bigcalm> Kitchen table it is then
[10:23] <bigcalm> s/Kitchen/Dinningroom
[10:23] <bigcalm> 1i? 1 x sqr(-1) ?
[10:24] <davmor2> bigcalm: if I hear nothing from you in the new year I'll send flowers to the crem ;)
[10:24] <bigcalm> Heh
[10:24] <bigcalm> Might be best if I leave it boxed
[10:25] <davmor2> http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/
[10:25] <davmor2> seemed somehow appropriate
[10:27] <davmor2> bigcalm: show that to Hayley and say I ask Lord Vader if I should leave it in the box this was his reaction :)
[10:34] <bigcalm> Cute
[10:43] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:45] <DJones> bigcalm: davmor2: Azelphur: I think this may be for you https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152383682505146
[10:47] <bigcalm> Sorry, I lack flash
[10:47] <bigcalm> DJones: synopsis?
[10:47] <DJones> Christmas singing stormtroopers
[10:48] <bigcalm> Ah
[10:48] <DJones> Doing santa clause is coming to town with excerpts from the original star wars movies
[10:48] <bigcalm> Cute
[10:49] <davmor2> bigcalm: try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRSepEkYsMA
[10:49] <zmoylan-pi> and you don't 'lack flash' you 'secured your os' :-P
[10:50] <bigcalm> Grr
[10:50] <bigcalm> ctrl-w with the wrong window having focus
[10:51] <zmoylan-pi> use an irc client that doesn't allow ctrl-w to close the window? or remap the combo?
[10:51] <bigcalm> Never been much of a problem, just one of those things
[10:59] <davmor2> bigcalm: did that one play for you?
[11:10] <bigcalm> davmor2: yes, youtube works for me. Facebook only uses flash for videos
[11:17] <davmor2> bigcalm: you use chromium or chrome then right?
[11:25] <bigcalm> Chromium
[11:30] <popey> Morning
[11:42] <popey> bah, apache eating all the ram and swap again
[11:42] <popey> Mem:    473624k total,   468804k used,     4820k free,      112k buffers
[11:42] <popey> Swap:   262140k total,   262140k used,        0k free,     5232k cached
[13:23] <foobarry> i miss wobbly windows :(
[13:38] <DJones> \o/ Sky have updated their SkyGo app to work with Android 5.0
[14:21] <bashrc> I still have wobbly windows
[14:23] <awilkins> Only when the window blows VERY hard here
[14:25] <bashrc> I'm on kubuntu. You can turn on wobbly windows under "desktop effects"
[15:11] <foobarry> i miss kde 3.5
[15:13] <zmoylan-pi> last time i had wobby windows i found someone stuck a fridge magnet to my crt
[15:23] <awilkins> Arrgh
[15:23] <awilkins> I remember that
[15:23] <awilkins> Magnetized CRT grille masks
[15:24] <awilkins> Trying to degauss them with an electric razor
[15:24] <zmoylan-pi> or pressing the degauss option on high end monitors.  *bong*
[15:24] <popey> *clangggggg*
[15:24] <popey> *click*
[15:24] <zmoylan-pi> *sproink*
[15:24] <awilkins> That really did give you wobbly windows
[15:26] <awilkins> Someone should do a "degauss" toy for modern desktops
[15:26] <awilkins> Just makes a *donk* noise and makes the screen wobble and blur a bit
[15:27] <foobarry> zoinnnnngggtick
[15:27] <shauno> "wobbly windows" is right about where I gave up on linux on the desktop
[15:27] <zmoylan-pi> add it as option to screen savers options...
[15:27] <foobarry> shauno: but beryl, and compiz...so much fun, so much breakage
[15:29] <mapito> diddledan,  did that guy fix his wifi?
[15:41] <diddledan> mapito, yeah, he didn't explain what he did but just pasted a link to an ubuntuforums page with many many many posts when I asked him how he did it
[15:41] <mapito> cool
[15:43] <mapito> so he didnt need popey:P
[15:43] <mapito> first thing he said when he came here heh
[15:48]  * popey isn't needed anymore
[15:50] <diddledan> popey, it was six o'clock this morning - he was adament that you were the only guy who could help him and seemed to think you're at his beck and call 24/7
[15:50] <popey> hah
[15:51] <shauno> hm.  gives me an idea.  we need to start selling maint contracts
[15:51] <shauno> the real world has taught me that it doesn't actually matter if popey can't deliver what sales promise ;)
[15:52] <diddledan> shauno, good idea
[15:53] <diddledan> I just don't get why non-english speakers seem to find this room over either their own language room or the main #ubuntu
[15:54] <diddledan> having a paywall may help in this regard, or at least give some relief from the pain
[15:54] <zmoylan-pi> it's more active and turns up in more google searches?
[15:54] <shauno> I suspect it's something in a translation somewhere
[15:54] <shauno> eg, if xchat has -uk as the default for en_GB (vs C/en_US)
[15:54] <zmoylan-pi> noobies should be asked for a 11 digit prime number before their questions are answered? :-)
[15:55] <popey> well..
[15:55] <popey> there's google helpouts
[15:55] <popey> which I keep meaning to try
[15:55] <diddledan> I'm still waiting for my invite to that
[15:55] <popey> https://helpouts.google.com/search?q=ubuntu
[15:56] <popey> seems there are people offering help including SuperMatt ☻
[15:56] <shauno> so the various countries that still prefer English over American English - if they opt to install their OS in English, they may get uk-leaning defaults?
[15:57]  * zmoylan-pi plans a hiberno english distro... for culchies AND jackeens... :-)
[16:01] <shauno> I'm still trying to figure out how to modify /etc in this lakka/openelec thing :(
[16:02] <SuperMatt> I'm not doing that any more because work+dancing+social life = no time for anything else
[16:03] <zmoylan-pi> if you could convince your bosses that you could work from a club you could work dance AND socialise more efficiently :-)
[16:04] <SuperMatt> hahaha
[16:04] <SuperMatt> well there aren't many dance clubs which run 9-5
[16:05] <zmoylan-pi> presentations at meetings via telecommuting would be neat :-)
[16:05] <shauno> 'dancing tech support' sounds like what Hangouts was meant for
[16:05] <SuperMatt> pfft
[16:16] <shauno> where on earth have I picked up "cat directory/" from?  afiak that only works on Hurd, but my fingers keep typing it
[16:16] <zmoylan-pi> do you in fact *have* a cat? :-)
[16:17] <shauno> heh, no
[16:17] <shauno> iirc on hurd, cat against a folder will list the contents.  I can't remember it working anywhere else though
[16:18] <shauno> for some reason I've tried to do this multiple times per day, and I can't figure out why
[16:18] <zmoylan-pi> is it a subliminal desire to acquire a cat? :-P
[16:18] <shauno> lol, no.  pets are only slightly less evil than children
[16:21] <awilkins> Looks like Helpouts has been killed for the UK and EU by #VATMESS  : "We've updated our Terms of Service. Providers from Ireland or the United Kingdom may only offer free Helpouts. Customers in the EU may only take free Helpouts."
[16:25] <shauno> I'd assume it's temporary, unless it was already a dying product?
[16:28] <awilkins> Wouldn't be surprised if it was on purpose to cause a stink, they can certainly afford it
[16:28] <awilkins> Hey, that's a point - doesn't this affect Ubuntu sales / donations from the download page?
[16:28] <ali1234> i would think canonical are already vat registered?
[16:29] <awilkins> In all of the EU countries?
[16:29] <shauno> you don't need to be vat registered in every country
[16:29] <ali1234> right, that's the whole point
[16:30] <ali1234> under the old rules you needed to be vat registered in every country
[16:30] <awilkins> Presume they still need to keep track of where everyone comes from - will there be a "I
[16:30] <ali1234> under the new rules you need to be vat registered in your home country if and only if you would be required to be vat registered in a country you sell to
[16:30] <awilkins> am in this country" dropdown
[16:30] <awilkins> ?
[16:30] <Laney> pretty sure donations aren't subject to vat
[16:31] <shauno> the new change is simply that you have to charge the vat rate for the buyer's country, rather than the seller's country
[16:31] <ali1234> and the reason people are unhappy with this is because previously they just didn't bother being vat registered in other countries than their home country, and there was nothing those other countries could do about it
[16:31] <awilkins> They are unhappy with it because they previously didn't have to register for VAT in the UK because they fell under the £81,000 limit
[16:31] <awilkins> But now they have to work out their VAT remittance to every EU country individually
[16:32] <ali1234> no
[16:32] <ali1234> that's what they previously were supposed to do
[16:32] <ali1234> under the new rules you send all your VAT to your home country and they split it
[16:32] <awilkins> Yes, but you didn't have to work it all out before
[16:32] <ali1234> so under the new rules it is much easier to comply with the law, but much harder to flaunt it in the way that online sellers have been doing for years
[16:33] <awilkins> NOT much easier to comply with the law
[16:33] <ali1234> no, it is much easier to comply with the law
[16:33] <awilkins> Previously - you took in less than £81k , you complied with the law by not paying VAT
[16:33] <ali1234> no, you complied with the UK law - not the law in all the countries you were selling to
[16:33] <awilkins> Now - you have to know the VAT rate for every EU country, keep records of your customers for 10 years
[16:33] <ali1234> you already had to do that
[16:34] <zmoylan-pi> thought it was only 7 years in ireland
[16:34] <ali1234> previous rules: you have to comply with the VAT laws of every country you sell to
[16:35] <ali1234> new rules: you only have to comply with the VAT rules of your home country
[16:35] <diddledan> previous purchases I've made from european countries have all been subject to their vat rate
[16:35] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: hmm.. Apple just went the other way -- from charging Luxemburg VAT on app store purchases in NL to NL VAT
[16:35] <zmoylan-pi> so the search is on for country with weakest vat rules for shell companies...
[16:36] <awilkins> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/11295953/How-the-EU-is-throttling-online-business-with-idiotic-VAT-reform.html
[16:36] <MartijnVdS> zmoylan-pi: some "re-shipping" companies in the US are in Oregon for that very reason -- no sales tax
[16:36] <ali1234> zmoylan-pi: no, because the whole point is to make the rules the same everywhere
[16:37] <awilkins> Changes : i) No exemption for turnover < £81k ii) have to charge VAT in the country of the buyer, not the seller (so now have to account for 28 countries worth of VAT regs)
[16:37] <ali1234> germany didn't have an exemption in the first place
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: and every country can change VAT regs all the time
[16:39] <awilkins> May well be true of Germany - bet they don't have a thriving (legal) small business community selling digital product online
[16:39] <shauno> ugh @ that telegraph article
[16:40] <shauno> that single last line makes me discount the entire article and look for a better source, I'm afraid.
[16:41] <awilkins> It's not the only source agreeing with that, but it is the most right-wing one ; although they probably hate it because of the tax abuses it was designed to block
[16:41] <ali1234> i particularly love how the telegraph claims bandcamp will be affected, while the source they link to specifically contradicts this
[16:41] <ali1234> you mean the tax abuses like people not paying the VAT they owe when they sell goods over the internet?
[16:41] <awilkins> Yes
[16:42] <awilkins> But it removes that £81k exemption from small UK business concerns (and any other exemptions), which makes them that much less viable
[16:43] <awilkins> There are already payment processors offering the option to stop selling into the EU
[16:43] <ali1234> except that excemption NEVER applied if you sold things to germany
[16:43] <awilkins> TO Germany or IN Germany?
[16:43] <ali1234> it's just that there was absolutely nothing germany could do about you ripping them off
[16:43] <ali1234> TO germany
[16:44] <zmoylan-pi> when reading the newspapers in uk you must always keep the yes minister guide to newspapers in the back of your mind... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M
[16:45] <awilkins> First came upon this from girlfriend ... who has a small business selling digital content (craft tutorials)
[16:46] <awilkins> She's basically very sad because her business plan is no longer viable, because she can't afford all the accountancy that she'd need to comply, and she can't afford to take time off work to make her business her full time employment - she wanted to build up a "long tail" of content and customers.
[16:48] <davmor2> awilkins: any good accountant will pay for themselves and if she is hitting 81,000 a year she can afford a good accountant, and good accountants will save enough to pay for themselves in my experience
[16:49] <awilkins> But she's not hitting £81k a year - but these new rules mean she no longer has that exemption
[16:50] <awilkins> Now she has to register for VAT and keep accounts of the address of every customer she has
[16:50] <awilkins> And charge appropriate VAT for the country of her customer
[17:01] <intrbiz> awilkins: have you seen the latest update on: https://www.change.org/p/vince-cable-mp-uphold-the-vat-exemption-threshold-for-businesses-supplying-digital-products ?
[17:02] <awilkins> intrbiz, /,e looks
[17:04] <intrbiz> awilkins: Enterprise Nation also has some good info on the VAT MOSS stuff: https://www.enterprisenation.com/blog/posts/5-steps-to-vat-moss
[17:06] <intrbiz> the uproar over VAT MOSS is interesting in that it was intended to reduce tax avoidance by large online retailers etc
[17:07]  * bashrc doesn't know the difference between a business and a micro-business
[17:08] <bashrc> I thought all businesses except for charities had to be VAT registered
[17:08] <intrbiz> bashrc: no
[17:08] <intrbiz> you only need to be VAT registered if your turnover is over £81k in the UK
[17:09] <bashrc> so digital goods are VAT excempt? That's news to me
[17:09] <intrbiz> no
[17:09] <intrbiz> companies with a turnover of less that £81K are exempt from VAT
[17:09] <bashrc> oh
[17:09] <intrbiz> so they don't need to be registered, nor to file returns
[17:09] <intrbiz> nor to charge VAT
[17:09] <diddledan> they can still choose to register if they want to tho
[17:09] <ali1234> no, countries with a turnover less than £81k are exempt from VAT IN THE UK
[17:10] <diddledan> there's just no requirement
[17:10] <ali1234> they still have to pay VAT in other countries if they sell there
[17:10] <diddledan> ali1234, NOW they do. they didn't before the new rules
[17:10] <ali1234> no, those are the OLD rules
[17:11] <intrbiz> prior to this change a UK company paid UK VAT regardless of who they sold too
[17:11] <bashrc> I thought that was the case
[17:11] <ali1234> the NEW rules are the same, except instead of having to register for VAT in every where you sell to, now you just make one payment to HMRC
[17:11] <intrbiz> the new rules are you have to charge the VAT rate of the 'country of supply'
[17:11] <bashrc> sounds ok
[17:11] <ali1234> intrbiz: no, those are the old rules too
[17:11] <bashrc> less bureaucratic
[17:11] <ali1234> intrbiz: the difference is who you pay it to
[17:12] <intrbiz> yes, I was just getting to that
[17:12] <bashrc> if I were a business I'd rather pay tax to HMRC that $someothercountry
[17:12] <ali1234> exactly
[17:12] <intrbiz> the VAT MOSS scheme handles paying the VAT for you
[17:13] <ali1234> the only practical change is that HMRC can actually do something if you don't pay, where as foreign countries could not, so nobody ever paid
[17:13] <intrbiz> the HMRC distribute to the countries
[17:13] <intrbiz> the real change, is a requirement for all busiensses to submit returns from now on
[17:13] <bashrc> seems reasonable
[17:13] <ali1234> again, those businesses would already have been required to submit returns
[17:14] <ali1234> the difference is that previously they would have had to submit returns to a foreign country's tax system
[17:14] <ali1234> now they only have to send them to HMRC
[17:14] <intrbiz> the concern of the small business lobby, is that small businesses now have to submit returns
[17:14] <intrbiz> and that is too much papper work
[17:14] <ali1234> again, small businesses already had to submit returns
[17:14] <bashrc> sounds like no biggy to me
[17:14] <intrbiz> not entirely sure I agree with that myself
[17:15] <intrbiz> ali1234: a small business didn't need to submit a VAT return before these changes
[17:20] <ali1234> i recommend anyone adversely affected by the new rules just sell their digital product for bitcoins on tor
[17:22] <intrbiz> it won't be long before they attempt to tax BC
[17:22] <ali1234> yeah good luck with that
[17:23] <intrbiz> won't stop them trying
[17:23] <zmoylan-pi> the forms for that will be interesting, it won't accept pirateKing997 as my name... :-)
[17:23] <intrbiz> :)
[17:29] <awilkins> zmoylan-pi, That's not your Bitcoin name. Your BC name is just a public key
[17:29] <awilkins> TBH a public key is a FAR more unique and non-fakeable way of identifying yourself
[17:29] <zmoylan-pi> but the forms will want a name for the paperwork and some people are really attached to their handles/nicks
[17:30] <awilkins> Use the GPG words version of your key fingerprint :-)
[17:30] <bashrc> bitcoin is a public ledger
[17:30] <awilkins> Yes, yes it is
[17:30] <awilkins> Basically, it's a very democratic bank
[17:30] <bashrc> indeed
[17:30] <awilkins> A bank is a private ledger
[17:30] <awilkins> Security is done by keeping the plebs away from it
[17:31] <awilkins> Whereas with bitcoin security is through consensus
[17:31] <zmoylan-pi> that makes the assyrian empire look stable...
[17:31] <awilkins> Main problem with Bitcoin is it doesn't do instant transactions
[17:31] <awilkins> And won't scale
[17:32] <bashrc> the block chain is really bloated
[17:32] <awilkins> To do small payments quickly you need some kind of escrow broker that will sign off on small transactions quickly
[17:33] <awilkins> Like a short-usage credit card that you top up from your main BTC wallets
[17:33] <awilkins> Of course, that broker would need to be trusted and have a lot of infrastucture... hey, it's Visa
[17:34] <ali1234> there is no reason not to accept 0 conformation payments for small transactions
[17:34] <ali1234> nobody is going to steal 1 million cups of coffee from you
[17:34] <awilkins> True, but a million people might
[17:35] <zmoylan-pi> that's only 100,000 starbuck coffees... :-)
[17:35] <ali1234> if you have 1 million customers you can set up your own prepayment system
[17:35] <awilkins> I rather like NFC payment
[17:35] <awilkins> That works for sums up to £20 in the UK with no online transaction
[17:36] <awilkins> Don't know what the trust arrangements there are, but it needs a wireless smartcard, so there's crypto involved
[17:36] <ali1234> the trust arrangements are any payment under £20 will be authorized
[17:36] <awilkins> Oh, and you can charge any amount at all if it's non-UK currency (not sure if they are going to fix that loophole...)
[21:59] <mapito> film done;]
[21:59] <mapito> equalizer was pretty cool