[09:56] <mlankhorst> can someone accept llvm-toolchain-3.5, and all the lts-utopic packages still in the queue?
[13:53] <teward> can someone on the archive admins / release managers / package-removal-request-processors list provide an answer here: http://askubuntu.com/questions/575775/is-it-possible-to-retire-packages-that-dont-stand-up-to-modern-usability-standa
[13:53] <teward> hate to ask but it's regarding a package removal thing, and the people who would best be able to answer are here...
[13:54] <cjwatson> You seem to have covered it adequately
[13:54] <cjwatson> We won't remove packages from old releases unless compelled to for legal reasons
[13:55] <cjwatson> Doing so is intrusive and potentially risky
[13:57] <teward> cjwatson: i don't feel qualified to provide it as an answer - at least not a comprehensive one
[13:57] <teward> hence asking for someone who knows far more than I to do that
[13:58] <rbasak> I'll answer.
[13:58] <teward> rbasak: thank you kindly :)
[13:58] <teward> as well it looks like the asker is confusing packages xD
[15:15] <Laney> still no volunteer for checklist tracking
[15:16] <Laney> carry out threat to cancel milestone, do without release announcement/chasing of flavours, ...?
[17:24] <wxl> no images yet?
[17:25] <Laney> Nobody has volunteered to assist so as it stands this alpha isn't happening
[17:25]  * wxl facepalms
[17:25] <Laney> If you want to test something just use your latest dailies
[17:25] <wxl> i don't have access to help
[17:25] <Laney> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/
[17:25] <wxl> if you want help pushing papers, i can do that, but it's irrelevant without that
[17:26] <Laney> Herding the flavours and sending a release announcement
[17:27] <wxl> that part is easy
[17:27] <wxl> what about the other half of the equation?
[17:27]  * Laney <-
[17:27] <wxl> so let's go for it then
[17:27] <Laney> great, please edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseTaskSignup and put your name in the empty cell
[17:28] <elfy> wxl: just so you know - we're not taking part in alpha
[17:28] <wxl> elfy: that's fine
[17:28] <wxl> seems to me the question as to who's in has already been answered on the mailing list
[17:28] <Laney> afaik http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/series/47/manifest is right
[17:28] <Laney> so I'll turn off auto builds for them and do a manual one in a minute
[17:29] <wxl> Laney: that wiki needs a checklist
[17:29] <elfy> wxl: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2014-December/003166.html
[17:29] <Laney> elfy started working on one (thanks) http://pad.ubuntu.com/CommunityMilestoneProcess
[17:30] <elfy> and that ^^
[17:30] <wxl> it needs to be linked
[17:30] <Laney> go ahead
[17:30] <elfy> I'd not link a pad ...
[17:30] <wxl> i wouldn't either
[17:30] <wxl> i'll just make the page
[17:31] <elfy> and the pad's got more questions than answers
[17:31] <wxl> well i'm just going to steamroll over it
[17:31] <elfy> I'll be interested to see what happens with this
[17:31] <wxl> if people want to change it they can edit the wiki
[17:31] <Laney> Fine
[17:31] <wxl> i'll ask for forgiveness later
[17:32] <Laney> I'm happy for you guys to decide what to do mainly
[17:33] <Laney> I'd like to be done by 1800UTC on Thursday though, if possible. :)
[17:33] <wxl> we need to make a schedule for this as i suggested on the mailing list
[17:33] <elfy> the biggest issue I can see happening is what the 'one' community person does when the other community people are never around
[17:33] <wxl> *I* would like to see images ready no later than first thing monday
[17:33] <wxl> is that too much to ask?
[17:33] <wxl> elfy: that's ALWAYS a problem, it seems
[17:34] <elfy> yea - but the 'release team' are more than one person - at least there's 'some' timezone cover
[17:34] <elfy> anyway - not terribly worried atm :)
[17:34] <wxl> Laney: since you have access, monday images too much to ask?
[17:35] <wxl> elfy: well it seems that the current situation is that for images that ubuntu does not participate in, there IS no release team
[17:35] <Laney> Well, we decided that the archive freezes can't go in before Tuesday
[17:35] <wxl> Laney: so first thing tuesday?
[17:35] <wxl> Laney: name a time
[17:35] <Laney> No reason you can't do some testing on the previous daily though
[17:36] <wxl> yeah well that's reasonable but i like to be scientific about it
[17:36] <wxl> everyone testing the SAME image
[17:37] <Laney> Don't know, after lunch? It'll depend who the release engineer working with you is - we're based both sides of the Atlantic
[17:37] <wxl> Laney: considering the latest time zone, what's the worst it could be?
[17:38] <wxl> i mean your 1800utc thursday time doesn't take that into consideration
[17:38] <Laney> that's my own preference. :)
[17:38] <wxl> it's first thing in the morning here and yet it's about 1800 utc
[17:38] <wxl> 1800 utc does NOT work for me
[17:39] <wxl> something more like 2200 does
[17:39] <Laney> I can sync out before you send the announcement
[17:39] <Laney> freeze block is in place, images are building now
[17:40] <wxl> what is the latest we can make the thursday time?
[17:42] <wxl> is the third column coming from the release team or what?
[17:42] <Laney> I don't know, maybe stgraber or someone else could help with publishing if they aren't ready by then
[17:43] <wxl> ok what is the earliest it can be tuesday?
[17:43] <Laney> this step is someone running the commands to put the images in their final place, create torrents and so on
[17:43] <wxl> (and still work for everyone)
[17:43] <Laney> I think you have to work with the person nominated
[17:43] <wxl> that doesn't work
[17:43] <wxl> we need guidelines
[17:43] <stgraber> Laney: next week?
[17:43] <wxl> you can make exceptions for guidelines
[17:44] <wxl> but making it just "whatever" allows people to stretch it out
[17:44] <wxl> leaving us with no time to test at all
[17:44] <wxl> it's bad enough that it's been moved to tuesday
[17:44] <Laney> stgraber: this week, I think wxl is saying that he might not be ready by 1800UTC but we'll see
[17:44] <wxl> that's not what i'm saying
[17:44] <wxl> i'm saying we need guidelines for people to try to aim for
[17:44] <stgraber> Laney: ah, ok, yeah, I'll be around on Thursday late afternoon/evening
[17:44] <Laney> ty
[17:46] <wxl> i mean essentially you're asking people who are NOT part of the release team to do something they have no experience with doing
[17:47] <stgraber> wxl: so it's actually "policy" never to have a time for final publication. That's to ensure that nobody jumps the guns and starts pushing news articles talking about the new milestone when we still have an OMG-critical bug we're fixing and planning on replacing all the images (and that case happened quite a few times).
[17:47] <wxl> they NEED guidelines if they are to succeed
[17:47] <wxl> stgraber: right, but guidelines give people a clue as to generally what timeframe to follow
[17:47] <wxl> i'm not asking for a time for final publication, but a general idea that people can use for their own planning
[17:47] <wxl> i mean people do have lives outside of ubuntu
[17:48] <stgraber> wxl: timeframe is "on thursday" which we typically consider to be Thursday in the UK so latest would be 23:59 over there
[17:48] <wxl> stgraber: 2359 utc?
[17:48] <apw> stgraber, "UTC" rather than UK surely
[17:48] <stgraber> apw: traditionally for release times, UK has been more important than UTC :)
[17:49] <wxl> ok, and so earliest that the time would be to have images is 0001 utc tuesday?
[17:49] <apw> stgraber, who us, uk centric never :)
[17:49] <stgraber> apw: :)
[17:50] <stgraber> wxl: so I think we could document that the tracker and cron should be updated by EOD Monday, which then indeed means that 0001 UK Tuesday should be fine for flavors to kick their rebuilds from the tracker and get their first images
[17:50] <wxl> stgraber: i think that would be ideal
[17:51] <Laney> and the freeze?
[17:52] <stgraber> we ought to freeze at the same time as we turn off cron
[17:52] <stgraber> the scope of the freeze is something we need to discuss though as slangasek's been complaining about this a few times :)
[17:52] <Laney> Right, and I think that freezing Monday was a bit contentious last cycle
[17:52]  * Laney coughs
[17:53] <stgraber> but if we say that the milestone candidates can start building on Tuesday, then the freeze must be in place before then, so EOD Monday makes sense to me
[17:53] <Laney> if it's EOD for me then there's still half of the US day left
[17:54] <Laney> Not that I'm super bothered by the freeze :P
[17:55] <stgraber> Laney: yeah, we should aim at midnight UK time depending on who's around. So if you are on point and you can't delegate that to say, me, then it's whenever you're about to leave.
[17:55]  * Laney nod
[17:55] <wxl> what is the qa contact supposed to do exactly?
[17:55] <Laney> I usually kick the first set of rebuilds when setting up the milestone too
[17:55] <Laney> figure everyone's going to want the current state of the archive
[17:56] <stgraber> but really, that seems like we're trying to overdocument here. The main issue we had in the past was that we'd forget about the milestone altogether, only notice on Tuesday and then start nagging the flavor leads. So just making sure that whoever tracks the checklist sends an e-mail a week ahead of time should make a massive difference.
[17:56] <Laney> QA contact> this kind of thing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Walkthrough
[17:57] <stgraber> QA contact is mostly relevant for Ubuntu milestones where we have someone who's full time looking at the tracker, bugs and figuring out what affects which image and communicates priorities to the release team.
[17:57] <stgraber> for opt-in milestones, that's done internally by the flavours typically
[17:58] <wxl> seems like that should ALWAYS be flavour contacts
[17:58] <stgraber> for non-Ubuntu, probably, for Ubuntu, we have a bunch of flavours and a separate team doing the QA review
[17:58] <wxl> to be expected of course
[17:58] <wxl> wait
[17:58] <wxl> what
[17:59] <wxl> is Kubuntu a flavour or is it non-Ubuntu?
[17:59] <wxl> which ones are which? :)
[17:59] <elfy> wxl:  the official flavours are all on that pad
[17:59] <wxl> um
[17:59] <wxl> right
[17:59] <wxl> so what's non-Ubuntu?
[17:59] <stgraber> I guess I meant Canonical-backed flavours more than Ubuntu flavours
[18:00] <stgraber> anyway, I meant Ubuntu, Ubuntu Server, Ubuntu Core, Ubuntu Cloud, ...
[18:00] <wxl> okok
[18:00] <wxl> that makes sense now
[18:00] <stgraber> which are all technically flavours, with separate contacts, ... but share a single QA team
[18:00] <wxl> you really mean *U*buntu not *buntu ;)
[18:02] <wxl> i hate moinmoin.
[18:03] <Laney> I'm off, see you later
[18:03] <wxl> thanks for the help Laney
[18:03] <wxl> i know i sound ungrateful but i appreciate it :)
[18:04] <Laney> np, we've been trying to get flavour people more involved with the milestone processes, glad it's starting to happen now
[18:04] <Laney> see you
[18:04] <wxl> done https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityMilestoneProcess
[18:04] <wxl> spread the word
[18:04] <wxl> it's linked to the releasetask signup
[18:04] <wxl> thanks elfy
[18:13] <elfy> wxl: thanks for doing the first iteration of the wiki
[18:13] <wxl> np elfy
[18:13] <wxl> i'm all for getting stuff DONE :)
[18:14] <elfy> yea - generally I am too - but this particular thing isn't affecting me just yet :D
[18:14] <wxl> :)
[18:19] <wxl> stgraber: is edubuntu NOT participating?
[18:21] <stgraber> wxl: correct, Edubuntu is LTS only, so our next milestone is 16.04 alpha-1
[18:23] <elfy> wxl: I think that the only way to do this is if people actually bother to post to the mailing list
[18:24] <elfy> if they don't then *shrug*
[18:24] <wxl> elfy: yep
[18:24] <wxl> tough love is what it's got to be
[18:24] <wxl> they'll wake up
[18:24] <elfy> yea
[18:24] <wxl> as a checklist dude, am i responsible for creating the release notes???
[18:24] <elfy> seems so
[18:24] <wxl> elfy: i don't necessarily see that in Laney's list :)
[18:25] <elfy> what I was thinking of was grabbing utopic's - making a basic default one and linking that from the new wiki page
[18:25] <elfy> from Laney's mail "  - Collect any release notes from flavours that want to provide them"
[18:26] <wxl> see i interpret that differently
[18:26] <elfy> and I would guess that release notes are part of "  - Prepare and send release announcement"
[18:26] <wxl> that's one way to interpret it
[18:26] <wxl> but to pedantic ;)
[18:27] <elfy> well - currently my way of looking at this is "I'll do for the Beta, what wxl does for the Alpha"
[18:27] <wxl> i like that :)
[18:27] <elfy> not sure what Riddell did for the first Alpha tbh
[18:27] <wxl> cuz i'm ready to spearhead this and standardize it so others can follow but i'm not sure i can commit to doing it as a full time job XD
[18:27] <wxl> i *CAN* find people to help
[18:28] <elfy> well - me neither, but I guess that there are other flavours who should provide volunteers too
[18:28] <elfy> this time kubuntu/lubuntu and xubuntu have (or will have) done it
[18:29] <elfy> it's only ever going to be 3 milestones as Ubuntu do Final too
[18:30] <wxl> yep
[18:53] <apw> wxl, did we not have release notes in Alpha-1 ?
[18:54] <wxl> that's what i'm trying to find out apw  :)
[18:54] <wxl> um
[18:54] <wxl> i see no release
[18:54] <wxl> announcement
[18:54] <wxl> wtf
[18:55] <wxl> Riddell: did you make a release announcement somewhere?
[18:55] <apw> wxl, no, they ought to be wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseNotes as far as i know, and i don't see them
[18:56] <wxl> ah https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2014-December/001119.html
[18:57] <apw> seems to only have per-flavour release notes, perhaps that makes sense
[18:57] <wxl> mayhap
[18:58] <wxl> elfy: since you're not doing anything this week, want a job? XD
[19:02] <wxl> oic
[19:02] <wxl> we don't have "main" release notes for milestones
[19:02] <wxl> just final
[19:02] <wxl> makes sense
[19:02] <elfy> that was my understanding
[19:03] <elfy> doesn't mean there can't be anything though
[19:03] <wxl> yeah well
[19:03] <wxl> we can add that as a later improvement shoudl we want :)
[19:04] <elfy> we tend to do our own anyway - only really use the main final release one - that at least has common bugs
[19:04] <utlemming> wxl: there seems to be a question as to whether Cloud Images will be participating in Alpha2. Since we participated in A1, I thought it was assumed we'd have A2 images.
[19:05] <utlemming> wxl: so to confirm, Cloud Images will be participating.
[19:05] <wxl> utlemming: never assume.
[19:05] <wxl> utlemming: if you read the list, you know there was a question about who was participating
[19:05] <wxl> utlemming: a lack of contact implies an unwillingness to participate
[19:05] <utlemming> wxk: From Ian Lane, "I'm assuming all flavours that participated in A1 want to be in for A2"
[19:05] <wxl> harumph
[19:05] <wxl> i see you are correct
[19:06] <wxl> i don't think the assumption was actually put into action unfortunately :)
[19:06] <wxl> Laney or stgraber, can you do what needs to be done to add Ubuntu Cloud to the images?
[19:06] <utlemming> wxl: give me a loop hole and I'll exploit it :)
[19:07] <wxl> utlemming: as someone who is often pedantic, i understand :)
[19:09] <utlemming> wxl: that and I haven't had a chance to unbury myself from boxes and email. I moved house and was away from my computer for several days
[19:10] <stgraber> utlemming: ec2 enabled for the milestone, your script should work fine now
[19:10] <utlemming> stgraber: thank you kindly
[19:10] <wxl> thx stgraber
[19:11] <utlemming> stgraber: we'll need to chat about having our own instance of the tracker I think. GCE, Azure, and AWS are now the regulars. And once Snappy comes on board....well, you get the idea.
[19:12] <stgraber> utlemming: yeah. I'm assuming you'll be in CPT?
[19:12] <utlemming> stgraber: yup, I'm throwing that on the schedule for discussion
[19:15] <stgraber> utlemming: ok, cool, let's talk about it over there then
[19:21] <wxl> ok now the alpha1, 2 pages have a release announcement link we can copy over and use
[20:10] <elfy> so I'm confused a bit now - do I take it that the flavours that the community need to corral include things like Cloud?
[20:10] <elfy> I thought they were Canonical
[20:10] <wxl> they are
[20:11] <elfy> mmm
[20:11] <wxl> i guess we do, at least when ubuntu proper is not involved.
[20:11] <wxl> i think.
[20:11] <elfy> hodge podge
[20:11] <wxl> TOTALLY
[20:11] <wxl> but that's apparently the "policy:" no clear plans at all :)
[20:13] <elfy> and server too?
[20:13] <wxl> i can only guess
[20:13] <wxl> i think we should assume that they got themselves under control
[20:13] <elfy> I'd hope so
[20:13] <elfy> :)
[20:13] <rbasak> jamespage, utlemming: ^^
[20:13] <wxl> i'm not going to chase after them unless i'm told to :)
[20:14] <elfy> I'm not going to chase after anyone too much
[20:44] <utlemming> wxl: I can't edit the webpage to add CI -- because its immutable. And I my emails are moderated to the email list.
[20:45] <wxl> utlemming: it's only immutable if you're not logged in :)
[20:46] <utlemming> wxl: sigh, now it decides to work
[20:46] <elfy> heh
[20:47]  * wxl coughs *PEB*KAC*
[20:47] <stgraber> utlemming: just let your e-mail through. I guess you're sending e-mails from a different e-mail than the one you're subscribed with
[20:47] <utlemming> stgraber: hrm, I thought my @canonical.com was there. Oh well. I thought I should use that @c.c since the Cloud Images Alpha2 are Canonical deliverables.
[21:09] <darkxst> hi can someone approve ubuntu-gnome-meta (its needed for adwaita-icon-theme split that was uploaded yesterday)
[23:09] <infinity> darkxst: Unblocking.