[07:32] <astraljava> They're all same-same, but different. But still the same!
[07:33] <elfy> apart from when different-different - maybe the same different then :p
[07:34] <astraljava> Haha! :D
[08:25] <knome> elfy, so maybe you noticed my comment on -offtopic or not...
[08:26] <knome> elfy, anyway, looks like unattended upgrades *aren't* on by default
[08:26] <knome> elfy, the enabling bit is in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10periodic
[08:29] <elfy> I didn't - but I've not been taking too much notice of this discussion anyway tbh
[08:29] <knome> yep
[08:30] <elfy> I don't like unattended upgrades 
[08:30] <knome> but they're secure..
[08:30] <elfy> that means I've got total trust in someone else :p
[08:30] <knome> i don't like them either
[09:39] <jhenke_> hi folks!
[09:39] <knome> hello
[09:39] <Frostsongr> yo
[09:39] <jhenke_> elfy the link to the pad you send around via ML is not accessible
[09:39] <jhenke> user type poll
[09:39] <knome> which one?
[09:39] <jhenke> access denied
[09:40] <knome> jhenke, you need to be in the ubuntu-etherpad team
[09:40] <jhenke> is that an open team?
[09:41] <knome> it's moderated, but practically everybody is approved when they ask for approval
[09:42] <jhenke> okay, good to know, I applied now, the error message though is not really helpful to find that out...
[09:42] <jhenke> thanks knome 
[09:42] <knome> i guess not :)
[09:42] <knome> np
[10:06] <slickymasterWork> elfy, pleia2, added some possible/eventual additions for both your consideration at the bottom of http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
[10:20] <jhenke> by the way, where would you like to have the answer to that pad? in that pad below?
[10:24] <knome> jhenke, we're not running the survey, we're building it
[10:24] <knome> jhenke, if you want to participate in the survey, wait for some time longer so we get it out
[10:25] <jhenke> knome ahh okay, then I misunderstood the mail
[10:25] <jhenke> sorry
[10:25] <knome> no problem
[11:16] <knome> bluesabre, ok, fair enough, just wondering where we are with that (re: mugshot discussion at -ot)
[11:18] <bluesabre> so far, basically nowhere (but will be fixed soon)
[11:31] <Unit193> ™
[11:31] <knome> :P
[11:37] <bluesabre> brainwash: xubuntu-default-settings 14.10.12 pushed... waiting for approval/release into -proposed
[12:15] <bluesabre> the imgur support is niiiice
[12:16] <bluesabre> firefox 36 being unable to open links is duuuumb :P
[12:16] <bluesabre> it's hard to be productive in the morning :(
[12:19] <Unit193> Imgur won't help there..
[12:23] <brainwash> bluesabre: that's great. hopefully it will be accepted without the need to ping someone :)
[12:24] <bluesabre> heh
[12:24] <bluesabre> I'll start the pinging when I get home tonight
[12:28] <brainwash> bluesabre: ah, don't forget about my xfce4-settings patch for the mime editor
[12:33] <bluesabre> oh right
[12:33] <bluesabre> can you link that again?
[12:34] <brainwash> bug 1391184
[12:36] <brainwash> applying the patch upstream is the important part, not sure if you need to package it
[12:38] <brainwash> there are plans to release xfce4-settings 4.11.4 somewhat soon, or?
[12:50] <bluesabre> I'd need to see what has landed since the last release, and what open bugs there are.  I can plan to do a new release soon though
[12:55] <bluesabre> oh
[12:55] <bluesabre> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&list_id=20846&product=Xfce4-settings&query_format=advanced&resolution=---
[12:55] <bluesabre> :'(
[12:55] <bluesabre> probably a lot of cleanup needed there
[12:55] <bluesabre> will work on that this weekend
[12:56] <bluesabre> anyhoo, time for work, bbl
[12:59] <knome> elfy, ping me when you're around (cue: wiki css)
[13:06] <elfy> knome: ok 
[13:07] <elfy> that's not a ping though - just wandered home for a cuppa ...
[13:07] <knome> heh :)
[13:28] <elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks - had a quick look, made a quick comment 
[13:28] <elfy> pleia2: assuming that com32 error doesn't get sorted by next week, http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-usb
[14:23] <slickymasterWork> ok elfy, got it
[15:04] <ochosi> humm humm, i guess my remote login went down while i was away, so if any of you said something to me during the last few days, you might have to repeat it...
[15:05] <slickymasterWork> lol ochosi, feeling like Calimero ;)
[15:08] <ochosi> slickymasterWork: you mean you're wearing a white egg-shell?
[15:08] <elfy> ochosi: welcome back :)
[15:09] <elfy> luckily all I said is best not read or repeated :p
[15:09] <elfy> knome: I can now back back 
[15:10] <ochosi> elfy: thanks :)
[15:13] <slickymasterWork> hehe
[15:17] <knome> ochosi, here neither
[15:17] <slickymasterWork> elfy, regarding your comments on http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as, please feel free to just use my suggestions if you and pleia2 think they fit the survey purpose 
[15:17] <knome> 19:41  brainwash: ochosi: bad news, xdg-screensaver is broken in vivid
[15:17] <ochosi> oh, that doesn't sound good
[15:18] <ochosi> what's broken exactly?
[15:18] <ochosi> brainwash: ^
[15:19] <elfy> slickymasterWork: understand that :)
[15:19] <slickymasterWork> :)
[15:22] <knome> 19:41  brainwash: ochosi: bad news, xdg-screensaver is broken in vivid
[15:22] <knome> 19:41  brainwash: not my part, but the DE detection
[15:22] <knome> 19:47  brainwash: somehow caused by dropping the obsolete upstream patch
[15:22] <knome> ochosi, ^ context for you sir
[15:23] <ochosi> ah context. thanks
[15:23] <knome> elfy, not on my desktop so can't show you what i wanted, but i'll keep pinging you
[15:23] <ochosi> hmm, lengthy games discussion
[15:24] <knome> yes...
[15:24] <knome> very
[15:24] <elfy> knome: ok
[15:24] <ochosi> do we have some writeup of how costly shipping the games actually is?
[15:24] <knome> comments include "add steam with a few gqmes"
[15:24] <elfy> ochosi: yea - which so good imo
[15:24] <slickymasterWork> it's our best seller so far, the games thread
[15:24] <knome> i think it isn't too costly, but there's the testing burden and stuff
[15:24] <knome> and do people really play those games?
[15:25] <elfy> we don't test them knome 
[15:25] <ochosi> well, that is really difficult/impossible to assess
[15:25] <knome> isn't it a bit 90ish to play minesweeper when linux installs? (:
[15:25] <knome> elfy, we *could* :)
[15:25] <elfy> right 
[15:25] <ochosi> yeah, but the point was we don't
[15:25] <elfy> so I'll take that with a pich of salt 
[15:25] <ochosi> and isn't stuff that is "a bit 90's" totally in again?
[15:25] <elfy> I play sudoko from time to time 
[15:25] <elfy> to while away boredom 
[15:26] <knome> i'm not really sure if a distro will look "cheap and flimsy" if it doesn't ship games...
[15:27] <elfy> it doesn't hurt to have them
[15:27] <ochosi> yeah, i'd still try to supply some facts about the costliness of having the games
[15:27] <elfy> why?
[15:27] <knome> no, but that argument isn't valid either
[15:27] <ochosi> just to get some grounding for why we would want them removed
[15:27] <ochosi> (or wouldn't)
[15:27] <elfy> ochosi: it was just a throw away comment from me
[15:27] <knome> if nobody else does it, i'll do a brief summary of the discussion some time
[15:28] <elfy> which one or two thought was a great idea - notably just knome and slickymasterWork from memory
[15:29] <slickymasterWork> right, I was one
[15:29] <slickymasterWork> and I stand by it
[15:29] <knome> i don't think we need the games and are probably the one to suggest removing them first
[15:29] <elfy> frankly I think that giving people abiword and gnumeric is a bigger issue than a couple of small games 
[15:30] <ochosi> yeah, those two are mostly crappy
[15:30] <ochosi> i still agree on that
[15:30] <knome> elfy, that's related, but i don't want to mess up the thread with libreoffice stuff..
[15:30] <elfy> knome: good - pleia2 is supposed to be doing a seperate one for that :)
[15:30] <knome> yep...
[15:30] <knome> uh oh already :)
[15:31] <ochosi> yeah, that thread...
[15:31] <ochosi> i'm already afraid of it
[15:31] <elfy> ochosi: lol
[15:31] <elfy> don't see why - just do it and get it over with :)
[15:32] <knome> "do it", you mean install libreoffice by default?
[15:32] <knome> because i can't see many opinions against that on the mailing list tbh
[15:33] <knome> (that doesn't mean it's the (only) correct solution)
[15:33] <ochosi> again, assessing the facts would be good (how big would the iso become exactly?)
[15:34] <knome> maybe Unit193 can brew one
[15:34] <ochosi> yeah, that would be nice
[15:34] <knome> that would give us a real-world number versus some hypothetical one
[15:34] <elfy> when the time comes it depends on what we actually go with - just calc and writer would be the obvious thing as direct replacements rather than the whole thing like ubuntu 
[15:35] <knome> elfy, i'm sure people will vouch for impress too, and if we include LO stuff, i wouldn't have many arguments against throwing it in as well
[15:35] <knome> and at that point, it's probably not a *huge* thing to pull in either
[15:36] <elfy> Need to get 4,754 kB of archives.
[15:36] <elfy> After this operation, 18.8 MB of additional disk space will be used.
[15:36] <elfy> for installing impress ^^
[15:37] <elfy> Need to get 56.3 MB of archives.
[15:37] <elfy> After this operation, 119 MB of additional disk space will be used.
[15:37] <elfy> for installing all of the bits of LO I don't have 
[15:38] <knome> we probably don't want base
[15:38] <knome> and i don't know about draw either..
[15:38] <knome> (or if we add that, drop GIMP!!)
[15:38] <knome> :P
[15:38] <elfy> exactly
[15:39] <knome> (even if it isn't a replacement...)
[15:39] <knome> wow, something weird happened
[15:39] <knome> got analog noise from hdmi
[15:43] <elfy> so you scared unit off then 
[15:43] <elfy> bad knome :p
[15:43] <knome> yes...
[15:43] <knome> ;)
[16:27] <brainwash> ochosi: I've already updated the broken patch in xdg-utils and a new version has been uploaded. However, I did not file any SRU yet, because I want to test a patch for proper DE detection first
[16:27] <ochosi> ah good
[16:27] <ochosi> thanks for that
[16:28]  * ochosi is still catching up
[16:28] <brainwash> ochosi: the xdg- apps don't seem to detect Xfce, so xdg-screensaver falls back to "other/none DE"
[16:29] <ochosi> could be that that already was the case before
[16:29] <ochosi> or did you notice some real breakage in the script wrt that?
[16:30] <brainwash> it does not break anything in xdg-screensaver, because if no known screensaver is detected, it will control the X11 screensaver in both cases (Xfce or no DE)
[16:31] <brainwash> but still... it should detect Xfce properly
[16:32] <brainwash> upstream does
[16:33] <brainwash> ochosi: oh, you should read the last comment in the xfpm lp report
[16:33] <brainwash> well, basically we are waiting for cavalier to come up with a solution :D
[16:38] <ochosi> brainwash: right, that sounds like i actually don't have to read it then
[16:39] <brainwash> always helps to read the details
[16:42] <knome> unless you're the project lead and just want to know the overview and that it's being handled
[16:50] <ochosi> yup ^
[16:51] <brainwash> but you are involved with xfpm and light-locker =S
[16:52] <knome> what in xubuntu isn't he involved with?
[16:52] <brainwash> as direct contributor?
[16:53] <knome> well tbh i don't think he would be a direct contributor to the projects you mentioned either if he didn't have to
[16:53] <ochosi> brainwash: i still can't look at each bug individually all the time. so when others like you and cavalier are looking into it already, i'm knocking it down on my priority list
[16:53] <knome> brainwash, you know.. he trusts you to handle it, be worthy of the trust :)
[16:54] <knome> (and i have no doubts you wouldn't... but take it as a compliment that he's not looking into it)
[16:55] <brainwash> I understand, maybe I'm just overhyping this issue
[16:58] <knome> probably... and if it doesn't work as expected, there's still plenty of time for other people to look at it :)
[16:58] <knome> we haven't even put out a single alpha/beta image
[17:01] <elfy> take the trust and use it to you advantage :)
[17:02] <elfy> d'oh - said that out loud :p
[17:04] <ochosi> hm, weather plugin not working for anyone else too?
[17:04] <ochosi> hm weird, works again after resetting the location
[17:22] <ochosi> hmpf, that remote login really goes for reboots a lot lately...
[17:22] <ochosi> anyway, i'm off again for now, hf everyone
[17:23] <elfy> cya :)
[20:36] <knome> pleia2 dropped the bomb! run! evacuate!
[20:36] <pleia2> almost waited until right before airplane ;)
[20:37] <pleia2> (airplane is my tomorrow morning)
[20:37] <knome> that would have been sneaky.
[20:37] <knome> pleia2, reasons like xubuntu will look cheap and flimsy if no games are shipped?
[20:37]  * knome shakes his head
[20:38] <pleia2> and newcomers look for something familiar
[20:38] <pleia2> I get that, I've seen it
[20:38] <knome> yeah i can agree and empathize with *that*
[20:38] <knome> but not that an OS is cheap or flimsy if it doesn't have a default game...
[20:39] <knome> if we want to ship a game by default, ship openttd >:)
[20:39] <elfy> one person's opinion of that doesn't cheapen the whole of the discussion
[20:39] <Unit193> lbreakout2.
[20:39] <knome> elfy, no.
[20:39] <Unit193> Also, isn't there a mute button for the list?  I think I'm going to need a mute button!
[20:39] <elfy> which isn't about changing what we ship - but whether we do or don't
[20:39] <knome> Unit193, a tetris isn't a bad idea
[20:40] <knome> Unit193, find the unsubscribe button :P
[20:40] <knome> what about quadrapassel?
[20:41] <knome> Unit193, re: discussion before, do you think you could craft an ISO with abiword an gnumeric dropped and lo-writer and -calc added?
[20:41] <knome> Unit193, just to get a real number for the ISO size
[20:42] <knome> and if it isn't too much, do one more with -impress installed as well
[20:42] <Unit193> knome: Thought I did that already once.  I'd suppose so, but it'd be a (close) estimate still since it's removing and adding rather than doing an exact build how they would.
[20:42] <knome> Unit193, close estimate is better than a random guesstimate
[20:43] <knome> i got to say, having -core ready for people who want a less complex system makes me less worried about including libreoffice stuff
[20:43] <knome> but i can't help that i'm starting to think a core ISO would be nice too
[20:45]  * Unit193 calls not it.
[20:45]  * elfy calls that's a decision for XPL :p
[20:46] <knome> heyy... i'm not proposing anything
[20:46] <knome> :P
[20:46] <knome> so there is no decision to be made either :)
[20:46] <Unit193> knome: And by -calc and -writer only, I presume you mean to include -gtk? :P
[20:46] <knome> Unit193, yes of course.
[20:47] <knome> Unit193, and recommends :P
[20:47] <Unit193> Of course!
[20:47] <knome> ...and if you please would, depends too !
[20:47] <Unit193> Dang, cought me.
[20:47] <knome> caught too
[20:47] <Unit193> Yes, that.
[20:49] <knome> elfy, let's be *VERY* theoretical now
[20:49] <knome> elfy, if we had the -core iso, wouldn't installation tests done for that be enough?
[20:49] <knome> elfy, the main ISO having installation tests maybe now and then (milestones)
[20:50] <knome> elfy, and package-related testing happening outside that as usual
[20:50] <knome> elfy, and please, take this very theoretically.... :)
[20:50] <knome> elfy, eg. still not proposing anything, or thinkin about proposing, just thinking aloud
[20:51] <knome> (aloud, but with a very quiet whisper)
[20:51] <knome> (movie reference: gladiator)
[20:51] <Unit193> Eh, problem with that is you'd not be checking for missing functionality due to missing packages.
[20:51] <knome> Unit193, but wouldn't that functionality be missing from the packages?
[20:51] <knome> i mean, core being the "core xubuntu experience"
[20:52] <knome> i guess that IF we ever did that ^, we'd need some changes in a thought level too..
[20:52] <elfy> well ... 
[20:53] <elfy> on a purely theoretical level 
[20:53] <elfy> why you talk of testing? 
[20:53] <elfy> it doesn't get done 
[20:54] <knome> sorry for asking then...
[20:54] <elfy> but if it DID get done 
[20:54] <Unit193> knome: I mean like polkit or something mssing
[20:54] <Unit193> messing up*
[20:55] <knome> Unit193, mmh. i guess if something is failing in core, then it's a fail currently, and we should make sure that doesn't happen
[20:55] <elfy> then I would say that we'd need it to be set up like everything is currently for not -core
[20:56] <elfy> shouldn't - assuming a level playing field - be hard to accomplish
[20:56] <knome> yep
[20:56] <Unit193> Or just keep it at milestone, and keep Xubuntu Desktop as the flagship and Core as the redheaded stepchild...
[20:56] <knome> one of the benefits of that would be a smaller ISO to test with
[20:57] <knome> Unit193, sure ;)
[20:57] <elfy> Unit193: yea - that's a possibility
[20:57] <elfy> on the other hand
[20:57] <Unit193> Speaking of which, wanted that new test done about now, elfy?
[20:58] <elfy> assuming current interest in testing - which we have to for the time being - that put's a lot of pressure on testing in 2 days
[20:58] <knome> mhm
[20:58] <elfy> yea - I did make a start on the 64 bit one then I wandered off playing with image testing for pleia2 
[20:58] <elfy> bad timing :D
[20:59] <elfy> knome: I'd rather not have to make that assumption - but it does need to be taken into account :)
[20:59] <Unit193> I: Xubuntu LibreOffice
[21:01] <elfy> taps desk with fingers waiting for the punchline ... 
[21:03] <Unit193> elfy: I was going to try and break something before the next -core install, but not sure how. :P
[21:05] <knome> Unit193, sudo apt-get purge *udev*
[21:10] <Unit193> knome: Well it pulls in more than you'd like.
[21:10] <knome> Unit193, of course.
[21:14] <Unit193> 958M vivid-desktop-i386.iso
[21:14] <Unit193> 1.1G xubuntu-15.04-lo-i386.iso
[21:15] <knome> that's... huh
[21:15] <knome> over 1G :P
[21:15] <knome> out of curiosity, how much is gimp?
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-base-core 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-calc 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-common 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-core 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-gtk 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-math 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-style-galaxy 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-style-human 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> libreoffice-writer 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3
[21:16] <Unit193> Would have to use clever blacklisting to get it right.
[21:18] <Unit193> And even then, blacklisting the two would only shave off ~3M.
[21:19] <Unit193> But, https://unit193.net/dump/xubuntu-15.04-lo-i386.iso (has md5sum and zsync too)
[21:22] <brainwash> bluesabre: trusty package does not include the updated keybind xml from vivid, commit http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/revision/482 is missing
[21:22] <Unit193> And talking about impress, that has gstreamer backends to install and generally drags in -draw, pdfimport, and a couple libs, sooo...
[21:22] <elfy> knome: is there some actually important reason for being less than 1Gb
[21:23] <Unit193> elfy: That's our limit, we set it a few cycles back.
[21:23] <elfy> and?
[21:24] <elfy> we did other things then too - we used to install xchat because too ;)
[21:24] <Unit193> And nothing, that's the current limit.
[21:24] <knome> elfy, it's one of the "magic numbers", if we go over that, we rule out a set of USB sticks
[21:24] <Unit193> I'd personally like to keep it small, but.. :/
[21:24] <knome> nothing more than that, but it's something to keep in mnid
[21:24] <knome> *mind too
[21:27] <knome> at the least, i would i'd want a team vote on crossing over that line
[21:27] <knome> err, -i'd :)
[21:29] <elfy> knome: well yea - but if we went to 2 we'd rule out more - I don't think that should be a particularly important consideration any longer
[21:30] <Unit193> :/
[21:30] <elfy> especially if the consideration random small USB's that people pick up from here and there for free :)
[21:31] <elfy> if it's that important make it small enough for CD's so people that haven't caught up with DVD's are ok again :)
[21:31] <knome> i don't think there is any way to make xubuntu fit a CD again
[21:31]  * Unit193 could do it.
[21:31] <knome> but now that i said that, i'm sure Unit193 will prove me wrong
[21:31] <knome> yeah.
[21:31] <elfy> heh
[21:33] <elfy> can you even buy 1Gb sticks still - from somewhere other than a dodgy e-bay seller ... 
[21:33] <Unit193> Pretty sure.
[21:33] <knome> or existing :)
[21:34] <elfy> just think that worrying about 1Gb or less shouldn't be an over-riding consideration
[21:35] <elfy> anymore - it's almost closer to 2020 than 2010 now :)
[21:37] <Unit193> Not that I should complain too much, I've got some work to do, getting my respin under 1Gb. :/
[21:39] <elfy> wandering off now - night all :)
[21:39] <Unit193> G'night!
[21:43] <knome> nighty elfy!
[23:59] <bluesabre> brainwash: *facepalm*
[23:59] <bluesabre> bbiab