=== brainwash_ is now known as brainwash [07:32] They're all same-same, but different. But still the same! [07:33] apart from when different-different - maybe the same different then :p [07:34] Haha! :D [08:25] elfy, so maybe you noticed my comment on -offtopic or not... [08:26] elfy, anyway, looks like unattended upgrades *aren't* on by default [08:26] elfy, the enabling bit is in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10periodic [08:29] I didn't - but I've not been taking too much notice of this discussion anyway tbh [08:29] yep [08:30] I don't like unattended upgrades [08:30] but they're secure.. [08:30] that means I've got total trust in someone else :p [08:30] i don't like them either [09:39] hi folks! [09:39] hello [09:39] yo [09:39] elfy the link to the pad you send around via ML is not accessible === jhenke_ is now known as jhenke [09:39] user type poll [09:39] which one? [09:39] access denied [09:40] jhenke, you need to be in the ubuntu-etherpad team [09:40] is that an open team? [09:41] it's moderated, but practically everybody is approved when they ask for approval [09:42] okay, good to know, I applied now, the error message though is not really helpful to find that out... [09:42] thanks knome [09:42] i guess not :) [09:42] np [10:06] elfy, pleia2, added some possible/eventual additions for both your consideration at the bottom of http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as [10:20] by the way, where would you like to have the answer to that pad? in that pad below? [10:24] jhenke, we're not running the survey, we're building it [10:24] jhenke, if you want to participate in the survey, wait for some time longer so we get it out [10:25] knome ahh okay, then I misunderstood the mail [10:25] sorry [10:25] no problem [11:16] bluesabre, ok, fair enough, just wondering where we are with that (re: mugshot discussion at -ot) [11:18] so far, basically nowhere (but will be fixed soon) [11:31] ™ [11:31] :P [11:37] brainwash: xubuntu-default-settings 14.10.12 pushed... waiting for approval/release into -proposed [12:15] the imgur support is niiiice [12:16] firefox 36 being unable to open links is duuuumb :P [12:16] it's hard to be productive in the morning :( [12:19] Imgur won't help there.. [12:23] bluesabre: that's great. hopefully it will be accepted without the need to ping someone :) [12:24] heh [12:24] I'll start the pinging when I get home tonight [12:28] bluesabre: ah, don't forget about my xfce4-settings patch for the mime editor [12:33] oh right [12:33] can you link that again? [12:34] bug 1391184 [12:34] bug 1391184 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "MIME type change incorrectly shows as Default" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391184 [12:36] applying the patch upstream is the important part, not sure if you need to package it [12:38] there are plans to release xfce4-settings 4.11.4 somewhat soon, or? [12:50] I'd need to see what has landed since the last release, and what open bugs there are. I can plan to do a new release soon though [12:55] oh [12:55] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&list_id=20846&product=Xfce4-settings&query_format=advanced&resolution=--- [12:55] :'( [12:55] probably a lot of cleanup needed there [12:55] will work on that this weekend [12:56] anyhoo, time for work, bbl [12:59] elfy, ping me when you're around (cue: wiki css) [13:06] knome: ok [13:07] that's not a ping though - just wandered home for a cuppa ... [13:07] heh :) [13:28] slickymasterWork: thanks - had a quick look, made a quick comment [13:28] pleia2: assuming that com32 error doesn't get sorted by next week, http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-usb [14:23] ok elfy, got it [15:04] humm humm, i guess my remote login went down while i was away, so if any of you said something to me during the last few days, you might have to repeat it... [15:05] lol ochosi, feeling like Calimero ;) [15:08] slickymasterWork: you mean you're wearing a white egg-shell? [15:08] ochosi: welcome back :) [15:09] luckily all I said is best not read or repeated :p [15:09] knome: I can now back back [15:10] elfy: thanks :) [15:13] hehe [15:17] ochosi, here neither [15:17] elfy, regarding your comments on http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as, please feel free to just use my suggestions if you and pleia2 think they fit the survey purpose [15:17] 19:41 brainwash: ochosi: bad news, xdg-screensaver is broken in vivid [15:17] oh, that doesn't sound good [15:18] what's broken exactly? [15:18] brainwash: ^ [15:19] slickymasterWork: understand that :) [15:19] :) [15:22] 19:41 brainwash: ochosi: bad news, xdg-screensaver is broken in vivid [15:22] 19:41 brainwash: not my part, but the DE detection [15:22] 19:47 brainwash: somehow caused by dropping the obsolete upstream patch [15:22] ochosi, ^ context for you sir [15:23] ah context. thanks [15:23] elfy, not on my desktop so can't show you what i wanted, but i'll keep pinging you [15:23] hmm, lengthy games discussion [15:24] yes... [15:24] very [15:24] knome: ok [15:24] do we have some writeup of how costly shipping the games actually is? [15:24] comments include "add steam with a few gqmes" [15:24] ochosi: yea - which so good imo [15:24] it's our best seller so far, the games thread [15:24] i think it isn't too costly, but there's the testing burden and stuff [15:24] and do people really play those games? [15:25] we don't test them knome [15:25] well, that is really difficult/impossible to assess [15:25] isn't it a bit 90ish to play minesweeper when linux installs? (: [15:25] elfy, we *could* :) [15:25] right [15:25] yeah, but the point was we don't [15:25] so I'll take that with a pich of salt [15:25] and isn't stuff that is "a bit 90's" totally in again? [15:25] I play sudoko from time to time [15:25] to while away boredom [15:26] i'm not really sure if a distro will look "cheap and flimsy" if it doesn't ship games... [15:27] it doesn't hurt to have them [15:27] yeah, i'd still try to supply some facts about the costliness of having the games [15:27] why? [15:27] no, but that argument isn't valid either [15:27] just to get some grounding for why we would want them removed [15:27] (or wouldn't) [15:27] ochosi: it was just a throw away comment from me [15:27] if nobody else does it, i'll do a brief summary of the discussion some time [15:28] which one or two thought was a great idea - notably just knome and slickymasterWork from memory [15:29] right, I was one [15:29] and I stand by it [15:29] i don't think we need the games and are probably the one to suggest removing them first [15:29] frankly I think that giving people abiword and gnumeric is a bigger issue than a couple of small games [15:30] yeah, those two are mostly crappy [15:30] i still agree on that [15:30] elfy, that's related, but i don't want to mess up the thread with libreoffice stuff.. [15:30] knome: good - pleia2 is supposed to be doing a seperate one for that :) [15:30] yep... [15:30] uh oh already :) [15:31] yeah, that thread... [15:31] i'm already afraid of it [15:31] ochosi: lol [15:31] don't see why - just do it and get it over with :) [15:32] "do it", you mean install libreoffice by default? [15:32] because i can't see many opinions against that on the mailing list tbh [15:33] (that doesn't mean it's the (only) correct solution) [15:33] again, assessing the facts would be good (how big would the iso become exactly?) [15:34] maybe Unit193 can brew one [15:34] yeah, that would be nice [15:34] that would give us a real-world number versus some hypothetical one [15:34] when the time comes it depends on what we actually go with - just calc and writer would be the obvious thing as direct replacements rather than the whole thing like ubuntu [15:35] elfy, i'm sure people will vouch for impress too, and if we include LO stuff, i wouldn't have many arguments against throwing it in as well [15:35] and at that point, it's probably not a *huge* thing to pull in either [15:36] Need to get 4,754 kB of archives. [15:36] After this operation, 18.8 MB of additional disk space will be used. [15:36] for installing impress ^^ [15:37] Need to get 56.3 MB of archives. [15:37] After this operation, 119 MB of additional disk space will be used. [15:37] for installing all of the bits of LO I don't have [15:38] we probably don't want base [15:38] and i don't know about draw either.. [15:38] (or if we add that, drop GIMP!!) [15:38] :P [15:38] exactly [15:39] (even if it isn't a replacement...) [15:39] wow, something weird happened [15:39] got analog noise from hdmi [15:43] so you scared unit off then [15:43] bad knome :p [15:43] yes... [15:43] ;) [16:27] ochosi: I've already updated the broken patch in xdg-utils and a new version has been uploaded. However, I did not file any SRU yet, because I want to test a patch for proper DE detection first [16:27] ah good [16:27] thanks for that [16:28] * ochosi is still catching up [16:28] ochosi: the xdg- apps don't seem to detect Xfce, so xdg-screensaver falls back to "other/none DE" [16:29] could be that that already was the case before [16:29] or did you notice some real breakage in the script wrt that? [16:30] it does not break anything in xdg-screensaver, because if no known screensaver is detected, it will control the X11 screensaver in both cases (Xfce or no DE) [16:31] but still... it should detect Xfce properly [16:32] upstream does [16:33] ochosi: oh, you should read the last comment in the xfpm lp report [16:33] well, basically we are waiting for cavalier to come up with a solution :D [16:38] brainwash: right, that sounds like i actually don't have to read it then [16:39] always helps to read the details [16:42] unless you're the project lead and just want to know the overview and that it's being handled [16:50] yup ^ [16:51] but you are involved with xfpm and light-locker =S [16:52] what in xubuntu isn't he involved with? [16:52] as direct contributor? [16:53] well tbh i don't think he would be a direct contributor to the projects you mentioned either if he didn't have to [16:53] brainwash: i still can't look at each bug individually all the time. so when others like you and cavalier are looking into it already, i'm knocking it down on my priority list [16:53] brainwash, you know.. he trusts you to handle it, be worthy of the trust :) [16:54] (and i have no doubts you wouldn't... but take it as a compliment that he's not looking into it) [16:55] I understand, maybe I'm just overhyping this issue [16:58] probably... and if it doesn't work as expected, there's still plenty of time for other people to look at it :) [16:58] we haven't even put out a single alpha/beta image [17:01] take the trust and use it to you advantage :) [17:02] d'oh - said that out loud :p [17:04] hm, weather plugin not working for anyone else too? [17:04] hm weird, works again after resetting the location [17:22] hmpf, that remote login really goes for reboots a lot lately... [17:22] anyway, i'm off again for now, hf everyone [17:23] cya :) [20:36] pleia2 dropped the bomb! run! evacuate! [20:36] almost waited until right before airplane ;) [20:37] (airplane is my tomorrow morning) [20:37] that would have been sneaky. [20:37] pleia2, reasons like xubuntu will look cheap and flimsy if no games are shipped? [20:37] * knome shakes his head [20:38] and newcomers look for something familiar [20:38] I get that, I've seen it [20:38] yeah i can agree and empathize with *that* [20:38] but not that an OS is cheap or flimsy if it doesn't have a default game... [20:39] if we want to ship a game by default, ship openttd >:) [20:39] one person's opinion of that doesn't cheapen the whole of the discussion [20:39] lbreakout2. [20:39] elfy, no. [20:39] Also, isn't there a mute button for the list? I think I'm going to need a mute button! [20:39] which isn't about changing what we ship - but whether we do or don't [20:39] Unit193, a tetris isn't a bad idea [20:40] Unit193, find the unsubscribe button :P [20:40] what about quadrapassel? [20:41] Unit193, re: discussion before, do you think you could craft an ISO with abiword an gnumeric dropped and lo-writer and -calc added? [20:41] Unit193, just to get a real number for the ISO size [20:42] and if it isn't too much, do one more with -impress installed as well [20:42] knome: Thought I did that already once. I'd suppose so, but it'd be a (close) estimate still since it's removing and adding rather than doing an exact build how they would. [20:42] Unit193, close estimate is better than a random guesstimate [20:43] i got to say, having -core ready for people who want a less complex system makes me less worried about including libreoffice stuff [20:43] but i can't help that i'm starting to think a core ISO would be nice too [20:45] * Unit193 calls not it. [20:45] * elfy calls that's a decision for XPL :p [20:46] heyy... i'm not proposing anything [20:46] :P [20:46] so there is no decision to be made either :) [20:46] knome: And by -calc and -writer only, I presume you mean to include -gtk? :P [20:46] Unit193, yes of course. [20:47] Unit193, and recommends :P [20:47] Of course! [20:47] ...and if you please would, depends too ! [20:47] Dang, cought me. [20:47] caught too [20:47] Yes, that. [20:49] elfy, let's be *VERY* theoretical now [20:49] elfy, if we had the -core iso, wouldn't installation tests done for that be enough? [20:49] elfy, the main ISO having installation tests maybe now and then (milestones) [20:50] elfy, and package-related testing happening outside that as usual [20:50] elfy, and please, take this very theoretically.... :) [20:50] elfy, eg. still not proposing anything, or thinkin about proposing, just thinking aloud [20:51] (aloud, but with a very quiet whisper) [20:51] (movie reference: gladiator) [20:51] Eh, problem with that is you'd not be checking for missing functionality due to missing packages. [20:51] Unit193, but wouldn't that functionality be missing from the packages? [20:51] i mean, core being the "core xubuntu experience" [20:52] i guess that IF we ever did that ^, we'd need some changes in a thought level too.. [20:52] well ... [20:53] on a purely theoretical level [20:53] why you talk of testing? [20:53] it doesn't get done [20:54] sorry for asking then... [20:54] but if it DID get done [20:54] knome: I mean like polkit or something mssing [20:54] messing up* [20:55] Unit193, mmh. i guess if something is failing in core, then it's a fail currently, and we should make sure that doesn't happen [20:55] then I would say that we'd need it to be set up like everything is currently for not -core [20:56] shouldn't - assuming a level playing field - be hard to accomplish [20:56] yep [20:56] Or just keep it at milestone, and keep Xubuntu Desktop as the flagship and Core as the redheaded stepchild... [20:56] one of the benefits of that would be a smaller ISO to test with [20:57] Unit193, sure ;) [20:57] Unit193: yea - that's a possibility [20:57] on the other hand [20:57] Speaking of which, wanted that new test done about now, elfy? [20:58] assuming current interest in testing - which we have to for the time being - that put's a lot of pressure on testing in 2 days [20:58] mhm [20:58] yea - I did make a start on the 64 bit one then I wandered off playing with image testing for pleia2 [20:58] bad timing :D [20:59] knome: I'd rather not have to make that assumption - but it does need to be taken into account :) [20:59] I: Xubuntu LibreOffice [21:01] taps desk with fingers waiting for the punchline ... [21:03] elfy: I was going to try and break something before the next -core install, but not sure how. :P [21:05] Unit193, sudo apt-get purge *udev* [21:10] knome: Well it pulls in more than you'd like. [21:10] Unit193, of course. [21:14] 958M vivid-desktop-i386.iso [21:14] 1.1G xubuntu-15.04-lo-i386.iso [21:15] that's... huh [21:15] over 1G :P [21:15] out of curiosity, how much is gimp? [21:16] libreoffice-base-core 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-calc 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-common 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-core 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-gtk 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-math 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-style-galaxy 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-style-human 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] libreoffice-writer 1:4.3.3-0ubuntu3 [21:16] Would have to use clever blacklisting to get it right. [21:18] And even then, blacklisting the two would only shave off ~3M. [21:19] But, https://unit193.net/dump/xubuntu-15.04-lo-i386.iso (has md5sum and zsync too) [21:22] bluesabre: trusty package does not include the updated keybind xml from vivid, commit http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/revision/482 is missing [21:22] And talking about impress, that has gstreamer backends to install and generally drags in -draw, pdfimport, and a couple libs, sooo... [21:22] knome: is there some actually important reason for being less than 1Gb [21:23] elfy: That's our limit, we set it a few cycles back. [21:23] and? [21:24] we did other things then too - we used to install xchat because too ;) [21:24] And nothing, that's the current limit. [21:24] elfy, it's one of the "magic numbers", if we go over that, we rule out a set of USB sticks [21:24] I'd personally like to keep it small, but.. :/ [21:24] nothing more than that, but it's something to keep in mnid [21:24] *mind too [21:27] at the least, i would i'd want a team vote on crossing over that line [21:27] err, -i'd :) [21:29] knome: well yea - but if we went to 2 we'd rule out more - I don't think that should be a particularly important consideration any longer [21:30] :/ [21:30] especially if the consideration random small USB's that people pick up from here and there for free :) [21:31] if it's that important make it small enough for CD's so people that haven't caught up with DVD's are ok again :) [21:31] i don't think there is any way to make xubuntu fit a CD again [21:31] * Unit193 could do it. [21:31] but now that i said that, i'm sure Unit193 will prove me wrong [21:31] yeah. [21:31] heh [21:33] can you even buy 1Gb sticks still - from somewhere other than a dodgy e-bay seller ... [21:33] Pretty sure. [21:33] or existing :) [21:34] just think that worrying about 1Gb or less shouldn't be an over-riding consideration [21:35] anymore - it's almost closer to 2020 than 2010 now :) [21:37] Not that I should complain too much, I've got some work to do, getting my respin under 1Gb. :/ [21:39] wandering off now - night all :) [21:39] G'night! [21:43] nighty elfy! [23:59] brainwash: *facepalm* [23:59] bbiab