[00:29] <brainwash> bluesabre: thunar 1.6.4 installs a pkexec policy file, so we could drop the one from xubuntu-default-settings
[00:30] <brainwash> dropping it requires some manually changes to the po folder, or?
[01:15] <Unit193> bluesabre: Can you look into maybe getting rid of yelp?  It looks like that'd get rid of gnome-user-guide too.
[02:22] <bluesabre> brainwash, ochosi: first I've heard of light-locker killing downloads/network conenction
[02:22] <bluesabre> brainwash: thats interesting... guessing you have telepathy installed (empathy maybe?)
[02:22] <bluesabre> brainwash: yes, we can drop it now
[02:23] <brainwash> bluesabre: empathy is installed, well, almost every DE is installed now + tons of extra apps
[02:23] <bluesabre> Unit193: that would probably be a good effort, I'll also try to look at that this weekend
[02:24] <brainwash> bluesabre: is dropping the policy file enough? what about the po folder?
[02:24] <Unit193> bluesabre: A few things recommend it, don't *think* it's needed, and pulls in -guide which is larger.
[02:25] <bluesabre> brainwash: I'll take a look and determine whats no longer needed, unless you want to and provide a patch/merge
[02:25] <bluesabre> :)
[02:25] <brainwash> bluesabre: I'm not familiar with the po stuff
[02:25] <bluesabre> brainwash: ok, I'll get it this weekend then
[02:25] <bluesabre> was only here briefly, gotta run
[02:25] <brainwash> so, not sure if things are handles automatically
[02:25] <bluesabre> bbl
[02:26] <brainwash> ok, thanks and bye
[02:26] <knome> bluesabre, probably not, especially if the file is changing package that is from another source
[02:27] <Unit193> breaks/replaces?
[02:27] <knome> what?
[02:28] <brainwash> don't our gnome apps need yelp to display the help content?
[02:28] <brainwash> like... gnome-mines
[02:29] <Unit193> Ah, that's what it's needed for...
[02:31] <Unit193> elfy: In case you didn't see it and even wanted to, difference between my install and yours: http://paste.openstack.org/show/DmgdgNNyDPCEDi6VUDhU/
[03:41] <Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/OObJ2KnBXP3LAvS1WJbR/ looks good, but we're not smaller, we're larger.. (utopic to vivid manifest.)
[03:43] <Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/Zw5aVA0nxOwfyWzwsyXb/ trusty to utopic, fwiw.
[04:23] <Unit193> So in precise, xfsettingsd still goes zombie, but /usr/bin/xfconfd and /usr/bin/xfsettingsd end up running.
[04:24] <Unit193> Err, first is /usr/lib/xfcexfconf/xfconfd
[04:27] <Unit193> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9949033/ see?
[06:55] <Unit193> No such key 'show-notify-osd-on-scroll' in schema 'com.canonical.indicator.sound' as specified in override file '/usr/share/glib-2.0/schemas/20_xubuntu-default-settings.gschema.override'; ignoring override for this key.
[07:30] <ochosi> morning everyone
[07:31] <elfy> morning ochosi 
[07:33] <ochosi> elfy: what would be your take on my suggestion to hide the launcher? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/1396804
[07:33] <elfy> spooky
[07:34] <ochosi> think people would actually end up missing it?
[07:34] <elfy> was just reading that :)
[07:34] <ochosi> haha
[07:34] <ochosi> nice
[07:34] <elfy> makes sense to me 
[07:34] <ochosi> at least that was the only option i could come up with that sorta made sense to me...
[07:34] <elfy> seems like an aberration - nothing else has it's settings populating menu
[07:35] <Unit193> ochosi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~indicator-applet-developers/indicator-sound/trunk.15.04/revision/462.4.2 !
[07:36] <elfy> does that stop the notification of volume change ?
[07:36] <ochosi> oha
[07:36] <ochosi> looks like it
[07:36] <Unit193> elfy: Notice on upgrades the message I pasted?
[07:36] <ochosi> or at least it makes it non-optional
[07:37] <ochosi> i presume that that was changed due to phone stuff
[07:37] <ochosi> we can ask around though
[07:38] <elfy> ochosi: left comment in the bug ftr 
[07:39] <ochosi> commits like these are why i would've wanted to replace the indicators by panel plugins as much as possible
[07:39] <ochosi> i mean indicator-application usually is just fine, but the dedicated ones like sound or messages
[07:39] <ochosi> thanks elfy 
[07:41] <Unit193> !info volumeicon
[07:42] <Unit193> !info volumeicon-alsa
[07:42] <elfy> well - if that's what the update to ind-sound was for just now - no change apparent
[07:42] <elfy> shame 'info doesn't grab vivid in here
[07:44] <ochosi> Unit193: i'd rather use something like the xfce4-soundmenu-plugin (if it were improved)
[07:44] <Unit193> ochosi: (mostly) kidding.
[07:46] <Unit193> Annnd, yeah.  That'd not be a good replacement, volumeicon would be better even. :P
[07:47] <Unit193> This'll fix x-d-s: https://paste.unit193.net/?39c42359910c28d4#b5Y7B2+ydhOXrA+HyBSlXHeHCL8I/f+ElxDSvrm3hBA=
[07:58] <ochosi> right, remember to file the MR then
[08:01] <Unit193> Any reason not to just push?
[08:04] <ochosi> oh right, i forgot you have push-rights :D
[08:04] <ochosi> nah, just go ahead
[08:06] <elfy> and I'll blame you if the currently working indicator stops :D
[08:06] <Unit193> :3
[08:07] <Unit193> Push under ochosi's name, got it.
[08:15] <elfy> I see you got that right then 
[09:35] <ochosi> hey Noskcaj 
[09:35] <Noskcaj> hey
[09:35] <ochosi> how's it going?
[09:35] <Noskcaj> pretty good. Just getting used to having internet again. Working on a libinput transition
[09:36] <ochosi> good good :) since you seem to be back from your break, i wanted to follow up on the workitem in the features-blueprint "Evaluate exactly what changes we need for bluez5"
[09:37] <Noskcaj> I'll check tomorrow, but i think that's "leave it to the bluetooth guys, nothing major breaks for us"
[09:37] <ochosi> any progress or eta on that one?
[09:37] <ochosi> ok
[09:37] <ochosi> we still seem to have bluez4 though
[09:37] <ochosi> in vivid, that is
[09:39] <ochosi> it seems that the transition is still quite far away, several related workitems are still TODO
[09:39] <ochosi> so i wonder whether we really have to worry about it too muhc
[09:39] <ochosi> anyhow, please update the status of that workitem as you go
[09:39] <ochosi> right now it seems to be INPROGRESS already
[09:39] <Unit193> If we're set, likely can just ignore it, no?
[09:40] <ochosi> i'd guess so
[09:41] <ochosi> i very quickly tested the bluez5 PPA at some point
[09:42] <ochosi> everything still worked
[09:42] <ochosi> also, we don't have much bt-specific code in our packages from what i know
[09:43] <Unit193> xfce4-bluetooth-plugin
[09:52] <Noskcaj> ochosi, If you have time, could you please look at upstreaming lp:~noskcaj/ubuntu/vivid/xfce4-xkb-plugin/lp-733563 ?
[09:53] <ochosi> Noskcaj: i presume you have tested the patch?
[09:54] <ochosi> also, if you want "someone from the xubuntu team" to review, you better subscribe us to MRs ;)
[09:54] <ochosi> and anyway, seb128 is right, a patch of this type and size should really go upstream
[09:58] <ochosi> frankly, before asking me to look into upstreaming something, could you please check whether the patch still applies on top of git master?
[09:58] <ochosi> (full disclosure: it doesn't.)
[10:02] <Unit193> Xfce Bug 8446 already has you as a sub, but that's it. :P
[10:03] <ochosi> well yeah, i reassigned it to the current maintainer of xkb plugin
[10:06] <ochosi> that patch can't even be applied anymore by hand
[10:06] <ochosi> some parts of the plugin have obviously changed
[10:43] <ochosi> bluesabre: ping
[11:00] <bluesabre> ochosi: pong
[11:01] <ochosi> hey there
[11:01] <bluesabre> whats up?
[11:02] <ochosi> sorry for the lengthy PM
[11:02] <ochosi> you can actually forget about that
[11:02] <ochosi> most of it
[11:02] <ochosi> i found a fix for https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11425
[11:02] <ochosi> it turned out to be rather trivial, but i'm not sure i'm entirely happy with it
[11:04] <slickymasterWork> hey bluesabre
[11:04] <slickymasterWork> Unit193, if you want any specific feedback/output from the installed box please let me know
[11:08] <bluesabre> ochosi: just caught up... that seems pretty minor tbh
[11:08] <ochosi> i know it is
[11:08] <ochosi> the fix is just as minor
[11:08] <ochosi> i've attached the patch to the bugreport meanwhile
[11:08] <bluesabre> indeed
[11:08] <ochosi> there is also an alternative by the way, we can hide the preview-text
[11:09] <ochosi> you can try that easily with gtk-inspector if you wanna see how it looks
[11:09] <ochosi> imo it's not as nice
[11:09] <bluesabre> no preview text is displayed for me
[11:09] <bluesabre> or in his screenshot
[11:09] <ochosi> yup
[11:10] <ochosi> so yeah, what i dislike about the patch: it covers up a bug in gtk3(?)
[11:10] <ochosi> and it's work for translators
[11:10] <bluesabre> with gtk3, everything is a "feature" - in this case, "minimalism"
[11:10] <ochosi> although i guess i could look for where the translations for that default value are in gtk3...
[11:11] <ochosi> anyway, this is why i think it's a bug in gtk3: https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkFontChooser.html#GtkFontChooser--preview-text
[11:11] <ochosi> (or we implemented the button incorrectly)
[11:13] <ochosi> on second thought i wonder whether it even makes sense to make it translateable, after all, the main point is it being a pangram
[11:16] <bluesabre> if we use inspector to set this to true, what happens? https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkFontChooser.html#GtkFontChooser--show-preview-entry
[11:18] <ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/uypQnHA.png
[11:18] <ochosi> that ^
[11:18] <bluesabre> hm
[11:19] <ochosi> this is with my patch btw: http://i.imgur.com/LiDGc8Y.png
[11:19] <ochosi> (and how it is supposed to be)
[11:20] <bluesabre> oh right
[11:20] <bluesabre> ok
[11:21] <bluesabre> what happens when you set https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkFontChooser.html#GtkFontChooser--preview-text to NULL in the code?
[11:23] <ochosi> empty string
[11:23] <ochosi> so that doesn't work
[11:24] <bluesabre> darn
[11:26] <bluesabre> it might be a gtk bug, gedit also does not show the preview text
[11:26] <ochosi> or ubuntu-gtk bug?
[11:27] <bluesabre> we could ping satya and see if it happens in fedora
[11:27] <ochosi> or ask the OP what distro he's on
[11:27] <bluesabre> hes on xubuntu
[11:27] <bluesabre> he has indicators
[11:28] <ochosi> or arch :)
[11:28] <bluesabre> or
[11:28] <bluesabre> mint
[11:28] <ochosi> but yeah, you're right, most likely xubuntu
[11:28] <bluesabre> nvm
[11:29] <bluesabre> numix + elementary-xfce + our panel layout lightly tweaked
[11:31] <ochosi> yup
[11:31] <ochosi> so yeah, dunno, should we patch it up?
[11:33] <bluesabre> maybe
[11:33] <bluesabre> we have a few things we can do
[11:33] <ochosi> we can also just patch it in ubuntu
[11:33] <bluesabre> might be able to grab gtk source and translations, and pump them into our existing translations to save our trnaslators the trouble and make it work everywhere
[11:34] <ochosi> yeah, also thought about that
[11:37] <bluesabre> new network-manager
[11:37] <bluesabre> interesting
[11:37] <bluesabre> afraid to reboot
[11:37] <ochosi> :)
[11:38] <bluesabre> ochosi: will you be around for the meeting today
[11:38] <bluesabre> ?
[11:39] <ochosi> yup
[11:39] <bluesabre> cool
[11:40] <ochosi> u2?
[11:40] <bluesabre> I'm going to try to be... will be at work and all that, but I'm going to try to get my talking points down now in case I can't
[11:41] <ochosi> cool
[11:48] <brainwash> parole does not call gdk_notify_startup_complete when it's already running
[11:49] <brainwash> easy fix for the stuck busy cursor
[11:51] <bluesabre> yup, we either need to do that or set the StartupWMClass
[11:51] <bluesabre> "If true, it is KNOWN that the application will send a "remove" message when started with the DESKTOP_STARTUP_ID environment variable set. If false, it is KNOWN that the application does not work with startup notification at all (does not shown any window, breaks even when using StartupWMClass, etc.). If absent, a reasonable handling is up to implementations (assuming false, using StartupWMClass, etc.). (See the Startup Notification 
[11:51] <bluesabre> Protocol Specification for more details)."
[11:51] <bluesabre> http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html
[11:51] <brainwash> wall of text
[11:51]  * bluesabre uses Ctrl-P. It's super effective!
[11:52]  * elfy will try using Ctrl+P next time he's painting a wall :D
[11:52] <brainwash> so, you gonna fix that?
[11:53] <brainwash> I mean, do I have to share a 1-line patch which just adds the gdk_notify_startup_complete call?
[11:54] <brainwash> but maybe you prefer the 2nd solution:)
[11:54] <ochosi> what's the argument against attaching it to the bugreport?
[11:54] <bluesabre> brainwash: I probably will fix it this weekend... the reason I ask for patches isn't because I'm lazy, but rather the list of things to do just keeps growing, a patch or MR lets me easily get around to it and not forget about it
[11:55] <bluesabre> :D
[11:55] <brainwash> ok, so I will have to git clone it :D
[11:55] <bluesabre> or just add a comment on the bug
[11:55] <brainwash> right, I'll do that
[11:55] <ochosi> bluesabre: hum, i'm wondering whether we shouldn't head for a new parole stable release soonish, i don't see us getting around to implementing any of the features we thought about any time in the near future
[11:56] <bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, that's probably right
[11:56] <ochosi> brainwash: so wait, how do you test your patch when you haven't cloned git?
[11:56] <brainwash> it's a trivial fix
[11:56] <ochosi> bluesabre: and after all, we have enough new features to warrant a new release anyway
[11:56] <bluesabre> :)
[11:56] <ochosi> brainwash: so you haven't tested it?
[11:57] <bluesabre> anything with the window manager can go from trivial to headache, as I've learned
[11:57] <brainwash> I will
[11:58] <bluesabre> knome: +1 on the default image editor conversation. If our needs are to be able to do at least some light editing, but there is not a sufficient (and equally or moreso heavy) alternative, I'd be in favor of keeping gimp
[11:58] <bluesabre> (though for image viewers, I still like viewnior)
[12:03] <ochosi> i'm expecting a new ristretto release soonish btw, which means bugfixes
[12:10] <ochosi> brainwash: have you made any progress on the xdg-screensaver DE detection problem?
[12:13] <ochosi> might be best to propose another MR with all upstream changes
[12:14] <ochosi> bbl
[13:29] <bluesabre> Was going to write on the ML for office applications, but my opinion is not strong enough. I use Google Drive regularly for personal, LO for work. Abiword is unacceptable is you need to open something you didn't write.
[13:30] <elfy> that one's likely to drag on for ages till just before April 2016 I'd guess :D
[13:31] <elfy> I'm going to be +1 anything that gets tested somewhere else :p
[13:47] <bluesabre> Good point
[13:47] <elfy> I'll certainly not be bringing it up in meeting other than to DONE it :p
[13:49] <baffledbear> haha. Yea. I also use Google for basically everything. I'm just a fan of not replacing anything with something 10 times the size unless it's absolutely needed.
[13:50] <elfy> baffledbear: yes 
[13:51] <elfy> but what we're aiming at doing is setting a sensible default - which is likely to last for a while, so it's not really about personal preferences
[13:51] <elfy> if it was I'd be voting for all sorts of things
[13:51] <elfy> I'd want qt so we could have clementine 
[13:51] <elfy> imagine THAT mailing list thread :D
[13:52] <elfy> you'd need an index ... 
[13:54] <baffledbear> haha
[13:55] <GridCube> P: i was thinking, if we cant justify adding a new runtime for a single app. why dont we ship lots of apps in mono and then we can ship pinta P: but at the same time i though, "dont be silly"
[14:49] <elfy> !team | 10 minuteish to meeting
[14:52] <elfy> anyone else seeing bug 1414443 ?
[14:54] <brainwash> ochosi: there is progress, https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/ubuntu/test
[14:56] <ochosi> brainwash: bzr branch too?
[14:57] <brainwash> ochosi: I'll take the debdiff and find someone to sponsor it
[14:57] <brainwash> ochosi: then I'll try to SRU the whole thing
[14:58] <ochosi> okeydokey
[15:00] <elfy> #startmeeting 
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 30 15:00:04 2015 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:00] <elfy> !team | so who's about?
[15:00] <ochosi> o/
[15:01] <elfy> :)
[15:02] <ganglere> Not a team member, but I'm happy to sit in
[15:02] <elfy> welcome - it is a community meeting :)
[15:02] <elfy> #topic Open action items
[15:03] <ochosi> welcome ganglere 
[15:03] <knome> o/
[15:03] <slickymasterWork> o/
[15:03] <baffledbear> I'll also be sitting in, except for that bit where I'm at a standup
[15:03]  * knome lies
[15:03] <ochosi> welcome baffledbear too
[15:03] <knome> figure out what that implies
[15:03] <knome> ;)
[15:03] <elfy> I think pleia2 is away - but I know she did what she was listed as having to do
[15:03] <slickymasterWork> pants on fire knome?
[15:04] <elfy> and I did the ones I was going to do 
[15:04] <ochosi> good good, #done them then
[15:04] <elfy> #done pleia2 to mail list to kick off discussion about default office applications 
[15:04] <elfy> #done elfy to mail list about removing games from default install 
[15:04] <elfy> #done elfy to mail list re user poll 
[15:05] <elfy> yea - was looking to see if I needed to ochosi :)
[15:05] <elfy> #topic Team Updates
[15:05] <knome> #done knome updated the Processes page with up-to-date QA process descriptions
[15:05] <knome> #done knome designed certificates for the QA incentive programme (and more)
[15:05] <knome> #info knome worked on the website refresh
[15:05] <elfy> #info QA has seen a new name floating about on tracker post- QA incentive blog
[15:06] <elfy> #info not a great deal od testing reported though
[15:06] <elfy> #undo
[15:06] <knome> i did one
[15:06] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
[15:06] <elfy> #info not a great deal of testing reported though
[15:06] <elfy> knome: I know :)
[15:06] <knome> and about to do more
[15:06] <slickymasterWork> #info knome and slickymaster started working on the installer slideshow update
[15:06] <knome> i have a laptop for testing available now
[15:06] <knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-1504-slideshow
[15:06] <knome> ^ that's the drafting pad
[15:07] <slickymasterWork> :P
[15:07] <slickymasterWork> knome beat me
[15:07] <knome> i've also done some PoC things, the branch is at lp:~knome/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/1504-changes
[15:07]  * ochosi looks at pad
[15:07] <knome> these include: a "searchable" whiskermenu
[15:07] <knome> inside the slideshow, that is, with predefined application targets
[15:07] <slickymasterWork> and some unbelievable features yet to came ;)
[15:08] <knome> a slide that cycles through wallpapers
[15:08] <knome> and showing application paths on hover only (to save space)
[15:08] <ochosi> mhm, sounds nice
[15:09] <knome> i'll have to update the branch, i've a local copy of the whiskermenu slide done where i've laid out the menu on top of a screenshot
[15:09] <knome> so it looks better
[15:09] <knome> and non-case-sensitive search too
[15:09] <knome> and with icons...
[15:09] <ochosi> sweet
[15:10] <elfy> that does all sound rather good :)
[15:10] <knome> pushed that right now, so if you branch/pull again, you'll see that too
[15:10] <ochosi> yeah, i'm looking forward to having both an updated website and an updated slideshow
[15:10] <slickymasterWork> our idea is to somoe how port this interactivity concept also for some other slides
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> at least Make the desktop your own and Personalize your computer
[15:11] <ochosi> great
[15:11] <knome> yep, i think the slideshow has served its purpose well, but otoh, it has been quite boring
[15:11] <knome> or become that
[15:11] <ochosi> would you go for a bigger default window size then?
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> and perhaps join those two making just one out of them
[15:11] <knome> probably not...
[15:11] <knome> i'm even thinking smaller to fit all netbook monitors better and such
[15:11] <ochosi> i'm wondering whether it would be possible (i mean it should be, inside ubiquity's code) to query the size of the screen and just always use 3/4 of it
[15:12] <ochosi> and then make the slides responsive
[15:12] <knome> considering the slideshow width is defined in the static CSS file... i really aren't sure of that
[15:13] <knome> and in a configuration file too, now that i think of it
[15:13] <knome> [Slideshow]
[15:13] <knome> width:750
[15:13] <knome> height:420
[15:13] <knome> no units
[15:13] <knome> (not even 193)
[15:14] <knome> ochosi, you might want to change that color that hurts my eyes on the pad
[15:14] <ochosi> yeah, i think we'd need some internal changes in ubiquity to make that possible
[15:14] <knome> yes
[15:14] <ochosi> i might mention it to xnox though
[15:14] <knome> sure
[15:15] <knome> i'd be up for making our slideshow responsive at least
[15:15] <knome> it doesn't really need much though
[15:15] <bluesabre> That'd be cool
[15:16] <bluesabre> Hi all, around very briefly
[15:16] <bluesabre> (Sorry)
[15:16] <ochosi> btw, that isn't really a team update, but since that was brought up today (and i followed up on it), there are no plans to remove the notification shown on the scroll-even of indicator-sound (despite that one commit suggesting it). just the configuration option for it will be dropped
[15:16] <elfy> if you make it smaller to fit netbook monitors isn't it going to end up looking swamped on bigger ones
[15:16] <elfy> bluesabre: hi - and sorry - I did mean to do this when you're about :( you're up next time though \o/
[15:16] <knome> elfy, depends if it looks swamped on netbooks :)
[15:17] <knome> i'm not proposing to do the same amount of information on a smaller size
[15:17] <knome> just adjust all that and make the slideshow work with less
[15:17] <knome> (and show more of the information on interaction, if useful)
[15:17] <elfy> yep
[15:17] <slickymasterWork> just one thing re the use of wallpapers knome mentioned
[15:17] <elfy> ochosi: I got that I think a short while ago btw
[15:18] <slickymasterWork> ochosi, do you think it's possible to coordinate the wallpaper contest calendar deadline with the Documentation String Freeze so the winning wallpapers could be added to the slideshow?
[15:18] <knome> if we organize a contest, that is
[15:19] <slickymasterWork> besides serving our purpose it would also serve as a extra reward for the applicants
[15:19] <slickymasterWork> exactly knome 
[15:19] <elfy> bit late for this cycle isn't it? 
[15:19] <knome> ^ and a great way to liven up and make the slideshow look fresh
[15:19] <knome> elfy, for LTS
[15:19] <elfy> ok
[15:19] <knome> probably not going to do a contest on regular releases anyway
[15:19] <ochosi> yeah
[15:19] <ochosi> too much work tbh
[15:20] <slickymasterWork> yes, with LTS in mind
[15:20] <ochosi> i mean if somebody else wants to organise it, i won't object
[15:20] <knome> i might, just for the laughs.
[15:20] <elfy> anymore updates from anyone? 
[15:20] <knome> i don't think so
[15:20] <slickymasterWork> lol
[15:20] <knome> let's move forward so we can get stuff discussed today :P
[15:20] <elfy> moving on then 
[15:20] <slickymasterWork> nothing from me
[15:20] <elfy> #topic announcements
[15:21] <elfy> I've got nothing 
[15:21] <slickymasterWork> me neither
[15:21] <elfy> anyone ?
[15:21] <knome> nope
[15:21] <ochosi> one more thing
[15:21] <ochosi> knome: since we're talking team updates, how's it going with the wallpaper? any ETA on that?
[15:21] <knome> hr hrr
[15:22] <ochosi> i just noticed that because i was looking at our overall progress and there are some blueprints that are lagging behind
[15:22] <ochosi> artwork being one of them
[15:22] <ochosi> well, and website and marketing
[15:22] <knome> dev wallpaper you'll get before beta 1, final before ui freeze
[15:23] <ochosi> mkay
[15:23] <knome> before meaning i will consider that it will take time to land
[15:23] <knome> and upload and such
[15:23] <ochosi> i mean tbh it's a bit late already this cycle for it, i also considered postponing it
[15:23] <knome> dev wall? works for me
[15:23] <ochosi> but then again, since you've already worked on it and we only need to upload it once...
[15:23] <knome> i'll let you decide once it's ready
[15:23] <elfy> b1 is about 2 weeks away
[15:24] <ochosi> i mean i'd personally install it in a new folder somewhere so we only have to flip a config-switch as soon as we're post-release again
[15:24] <knome> and re: website/marketing blueprints, there are many things that are almost ready, and that most of those are not related to the release cycle
[15:24] <knome> meaning it'll be easier to catch up with those once we start hitting freezes that slow down other progress
[15:25] <ochosi> ok
[15:25] <knome> it's impossible to estimate it, but it isn't many things i need to do before we can ask IS to push the first take on the new website live
[15:25] <ochosi> yeah, i appreciate that those aren't release-critical
[15:26] <knome> *estimate the time to get the tasks done
[15:26] <ochosi> alrighty
[15:26] <ochosi> let's move on then...
[15:26] <knome> besides, there are things like "enable translations"
[15:26] <elfy> #topic Discussion 
[15:26] <knome> (^ a bug, so can't mark postponed without dropping the bug from the blueprint)
[15:26] <elfy> #subtopic Discuss participating in the weekly Community Q&A sessions 
[15:27] <elfy> knome: this was your baby afaik 
[15:27] <knome> yep
[15:27] <elfy> http://ubuntuonair.com/calendar/
[15:27] <knome> so basically, we have an invitation from daniel holbach... is anybody interested to join some of those?
[15:27] <elfy> for when these things are - which appears to be 1600 UTC Tuesdays
[15:27]  * elfy is generally driving at that time 
[15:27] <knome> if we schedule three sessions per cycle, that means once every two months - and can be different person participating
[15:28] <knome> technically, it's a google hangout, so you'll have to release your or your cats face
[15:28] <slickymasterWork> lol
[15:28] <slickymasterWork> that's on hangouts right?
[15:28] <knome> google hangout... didn't i say that?
[15:28] <knome> :)
[15:28] <elfy> you said technically so someone might think not :p
[15:28] <slickymasterWork> yeah knome, but I'm Alt_tab'ing
[15:29] <knome> slickymasterWork, ;)
[15:29] <knome> elfy, heh, i meant "the technical context is..."
[15:29] <slickymasterWork> so, that's a no go for me, don't have the required, and needed hardware to be able to attend 
[15:29] <knome> eg. it's not organized in knome's moms tearoom with limited access to elderly people only
[15:30] <knome> slickymasterWork, if hardware is the issue, we can organize funding from the canonical community fund, or our fund if they think it's stupid.
[15:30] <knome> slickymasterWork, but if you just rather would not do that, it's ok as well
[15:30] <knome> slickymasterWork, that being participating, not applying for funds, i can do that ;)
[15:30] <slickymasterWork> lol, this is a government agency, theoretically I can't bring outside equipment  
[15:30] <elfy> I'd be in that category if I wasn't driving ... 
[15:31] <knome> slickymasterWork, aha, so the time is also a problem
[15:31] <slickymasterWork> not as much
[15:31] <knome> slickymasterWork, as...?
[15:32] <knome> it's weekly, so we might be able to ask people to organize one of the hangouts on a weekend as well
[15:32] <knome> or some other time that would work for anybody participating
[15:32] <slickymasterWork> ... as being able to get a camera and a microphone and use them here
[15:32] <elfy> afaik they do them during their working day 
[15:32] <elfy> knome: ^^
[15:32] <ochosi> i generally think this is a good initiative/idea, but then again i'm already quite swamped with many other things and don't feel like taking on another responsibility
[15:32] <knome> well yeah, that's really it
[15:32] <knome> if nobody can/wants to do it, then let it be so
[15:33] <knome> elfy, yep...
[15:33] <ochosi> we could also take that to the ML
[15:33] <knome> elfy, so the community means the community that can contribute when the canonical employees are at work :P
[15:33] <ochosi> although i guess having someone from -team do it would be good
[15:33] <slickymasterWork> lol knome 
[15:33] <knome> yes, i would say it would have to be a team member that participated for xubuntu
[15:34] <knome> and i believe that's their thought as well, it's not a users hangout
[15:34] <elfy> yea 
[15:34] <knome> (users can participate by asking)
[15:34] <knome> hangouters should be participating by answering...
[15:34] <knome> anyway,
[15:34] <knome> #action knome to send an email about community Q&A participation
[15:34] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to send an email about community Q&A participation
[15:35] <elfy> thanks knome 
[15:35] <knome> that way it'll be archived sensbily
[15:35] <knome> even if nobody wanted to do it now
[15:35] <elfy> yep
[15:35] <knome> np
[15:35] <knome> sensibly too
[15:35] <knome> move o
[15:35] <knome> *on
[15:35] <elfy> #subtopic Finalise User identifies as poll options
[15:35] <elfy> http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
[15:36] <elfy> so there's this poll which Marketing want to run
[15:36] <knome> i think we should set up a team that goes through this, creates a poll, and then can run it through the team
[15:36] <elfy> I took the original pad contents and cleaned them up a bit
[15:36] <knome> did we ask for feedback on this already?
[15:36] <elfy> from the list - via the pad
[15:37] <knome> (we did...)
[15:37] <elfy> slickymasterWork and you did :)
[15:37] <knome> so here's my feedback (having been working on the original pad)
[15:37] <elfy> setting up a team makes sense 
[15:37] <knome> the first question seems good to me
[15:37] <knome> though i'm not really sure what we are trying to gain with that question
[15:38] <slickymasterWork> what did I do enterprisedc ?
[15:38] <slickymasterWork> sorry, this thing TTL'd on me
[15:38] <knome> the second question is questionable (no pun intended) in my opinion, do we really want to ask/know the *profession* of people?
[15:39] <ochosi> the main issue i see with the questionnaire is some duplication, like "how do you use xubuntu" is asked in several ways
[15:39] <elfy> I'd not want to know 
[15:39] <knome> and/or is that important when wanting to identify people
[15:39] <slickymasterWork> ah ok, the users poll
[15:39] <knome> the last question is in my opinion the best one
[15:39] <knome> that's not as quantitive as the others, but i think it gets us the best bang for the buck, so to speak...
[15:40] <ochosi> you mean what ppl use the internet for?
[15:40] <ochosi> or whether ppl customize
[15:40] <knome> do you strongly agree/strongly disagree with the following statements? (cut or reword some of these)
[15:40] <knome> the whole list after that
[15:40] <ochosi> ah
[15:40] <elfy> so we could cut the middle bit out 
[15:40] <ochosi> yeah, i think that list is ok
[15:41] <knome> i think that answer the question of "how do you identify" the best
[15:41] <ochosi> but there is some duplication going on there
[15:41] <knome> sure...
[15:41] <knome> but that's okay
[15:41] <knome> they aren't an either/or question
[15:41] <ochosi> yeah, i know
[15:41] <knome> and it doesn't matter if there is overlap
[15:41] <knome> each answer can be handled individually
[15:41] <ochosi> those questions also implicitely identify "personas" or "usage profiles", and probably more clearly than by just asking for it directly
[15:41] <knome> if 80% of the survey takers identify with any answer, that's a good sign
[15:42] <knome> yes, so with that list..
[15:42] <knome> i'm not sure if the first one is needed either
[15:42] <ochosi> i'd rather make that an optional question
[15:42] <knome> or maybe the other "where and how" could be moved under that
[15:42] <knome> the first?
[15:42] <knome> yeah...
[15:42] <ochosi> after the others
[15:42] <knome> or the second?
[15:43] <knome> i numbered the questions
[15:43] <knome> so i would propose 2 comes first, and 1 then, and can be optional
[15:43] <ochosi> yup
[15:43] <ochosi> exactly
[15:43] <knome> ok
[15:43] <elfy> works for me 
[15:44] <ochosi> age bracket should be optional, but is interesting
[15:44] <knome> ochosi, what kind of bracket?
[15:44] <knome> 0-18, 18-29, 30-39, ... ?
[15:44] <ochosi> yeah
[15:44] <ochosi> btw, we might weave in a question about office tasks in 1)
[15:44] <knome> i think that might be manageable to squeeze in
[15:45] <elfy> if you end with 49 - infinity then I will refuse :p
[15:45] <ochosi> that might help us with the whole LO/abiword discussion
[15:45] <knome> ochosi, you mean... in 2) ? :P
[15:45] <knome> oh
[15:45] <knome> right
[15:45] <knome> elfy, slickymasterWork: let's schedule some time to go through the 1) list
[15:45] <knome> and finalize that
[15:45] <elfy> yep
[15:45] <ochosi> like: Xubuntu's default software selection satisfies my office needs
[15:45] <slickymasterWork> I'll answer that after reading the backlog knome 
[15:45] <slickymasterWork> I lost the all discussion :P
[15:46] <knome> #action knome to schedule a meeting for poll improving
[15:46] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to schedule a meeting for poll improving
[15:46] <knome> ochosi, that sounds a bit off from the general "policy", but we'll see
[15:46] <ochosi> yeah
[15:46] <ochosi> just felt we might throw something like that in the mix
[15:47] <knome> yep
[15:47] <ochosi> it's up to you whether you wanna keep it
[15:47] <elfy> unless we killed off #2 completely 
[15:47] <ochosi> i mean with 2) i'm really not sure what we wanna know
[15:47] <elfy> then we could have things like Xubuntu default software satisfies my entertainment needs
[15:47] <knome> ochosi, yes.
[15:47] <ochosi> if we wanna know whether our default apps are fine for most users, we should expressedly ask for that
[15:47] <knome> ochosi, it's a great quantitative question though
[15:48] <knome> just remember
[15:48] <knome> this poll is supposed to figure out how our users identify
[15:48] <ochosi> yeah, but what conclusions do you draw from that question (ideally)?
[15:48] <knome> there are more polls to follow which can address other questions better
[15:48] <ochosi> ah, alrighty
[15:49] <elfy> afaik this is just #1 in a series 
[15:49] <knome> i don't "want" to draw any conclusions
[15:49] <knome> i want data that enables us to figure out something
[15:49] <elfy> so - get some idea of where people are first - then craft polls more specifically - I thought that was pleia2's idea/plan 
[15:49] <knome> if you understand the difference..
[15:49] <knome> elfy, absolutely and exactly that
[15:49] <ochosi> yeah, i had forgotten there would be more of them
[15:49] <knome> let's move on
[15:50] <ochosi> yup
[15:50] <slickymasterWork> yeah, I agree with the idea of one step at a time
[15:50] <elfy> nothing else on the agenda, but I guess we could deal with games and that discussion
[15:50] <ochosi> right
[15:50] <knome> yep, throw a subtopic in and let's briefly discuss the games thread
[15:50] <ochosi> we could at least continue it a bit
[15:51] <elfy> #subtopic Discuss games in default install following m/l thread
[15:51] <elfy> so we have a summary https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/XubuntuGamesDiscussion
[15:51] <elfy> which seems to me to be 
[15:51] <slickymasterWork> and just ftr: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-January/thread.html#10530
[15:52] <elfy> 14 to keep games
[15:52] <elfy> 4 to lose games completely
[15:52] <elfy> 1 sitting on the fence and nothing from me :)
[15:52] <knome> yes... the list url will be available forever, the wiki page will be dropped
[15:52] <ochosi> hmyeah, i'm sorta on the majority's side if i have to weigh in
[15:52] <slickymasterWork> the numbers are pretty clear
[15:52] <elfy> which ignores whether to change the current games or not
[15:52] <knome> yes, there are good arguments for keeping
[15:52] <ochosi> i don't *really* care too much, but then again, the games aren't heavy
[15:52] <knome> "Games make Xubuntu look friendly and less nerdy."
[15:53] <elfy> and I'm +1 to keeping games
[15:53] <ochosi> mkay
[15:53] <ochosi> yeah, makes sense
[15:53] <knome> "They are something familiar for new users and helps them connect and feel comfortable with Xubuntu and learn about it."
[15:53] <vforberger> I vote for 2-4 generic games. those switching from windows will miss solitaire.
[15:53] <knome> we don't ship solitaire currently though...
[15:53] <knome> and we aren't discussing which games to ship... yet
[15:53] <ochosi> we had aisleriot at some point
[15:54] <knome> yes, was dropped to help with the fit-on-a-CD mission
[15:54] <elfy> knome: yea - but I think we should discuss that - just not now 
[15:54] <knome> iirc
[15:54] <knome> elfy, yep
[15:54] <slickymasterWork> right
[15:54] <knome> and to be complete...
[15:54] <elfy> as I said in -offtopic - I think the best plan would be draw up a list of simple games - then poll users and team 
[15:54] <knome> i think also seans comments were good:
[15:54] <knome> "Games makes Xubuntu feel more human-oriented."
[15:54] <knome> *make
[15:55] <elfy> agreed
[15:55] <knome> "Users can install games if they want, but small games are supposed to be quick diversions." <- meaning, it isnt't a quick diversion if you have to isntall a game first
[15:55] <knome> elfy, works for me
[15:55] <ochosi> ok, i guess there are no strong voices here for *dropping* the games so let's move along then :)
[15:56] <elfy> I'll mail Team re getting a list of simple games 
[15:56] <ochosi> and just fyi aisleriot: installed: 14,8MB, download: 2.8MB
[15:56] <knome> ochosi, not so simple and small :)
[15:56] <knome> i'd actually want to discuss one more thing
[15:56] <ochosi> yeah, it's >1 card game
[15:56] <knome> briefly
[15:56] <knome> we'll have to take this on the mailing list...
[15:56] <elfy> #action elfy to mail list (TEAM) for suggestions on new games for the default
[15:56] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy to mail list (TEAM) for suggestions on new games for the default
[15:56] <knome> are we going to target a 1Gb image?
[15:57] <knome> or will we move our "maximum size" target to 2Gb?
[15:57] <slickymasterWork> I think we should, at least until next LTS
[15:57] <knome> tbh, i think the target should be "as close as or under 1Gb"
[15:57] <slickymasterWork> yes,
[15:58] <elfy> mmm 
[15:58] <knome> if it seems obvious that we will go over 1Gb with the potential app changes
[15:58] <knome> or even better,
[15:58] <knome> "under, or as close as possible to 1Gb"
[15:58] <knome> under being the first target/goal
[15:58] <elfy> but surely that doesn't work ?
[15:58] <knome> probably not.
[15:58] <slickymasterWork> we're not that far from that, presently 
[15:59] <ochosi> yeah, would be nice
[15:59] <knome> especially if we end up replacing abiword and gnumeric with LO components
[15:59] <elfy> 1.1Gb might be as close as possible - then if the decision is about hardware - how many 1.1Gb usb sticks have you seen? 
[15:59] <elfy> at that point if it's just that consideration - 2Gb is fine 
[15:59] <knome> elfy, what my intention is that even if we go over 1Gb, we shouldn't fill up to 2Gb just because; the download size still matters
[15:59] <ochosi> yeah
[16:00] <elfy> of course not - that's not really what I'm saying :)
[16:00] <ochosi> i think it's more about DL size than installation medium
[16:00] <knome> elfy, i understand, but it's important to mention imo
[16:00] <slickymasterWork> the media is not the only issue here elfy, there's also bandwidth considertaions
[16:00] <elfy> afaik none of the other *buntu's are anywhere close to 2 
[16:00] <knome> elfy, i mean, the "as close to 1Gb as possible" goal
[16:00] <slickymasterWork> considertaions even
[16:00] <ochosi> things have changed a little though since we have -core
[16:00]  * slickymasterWork sighs
[16:00] <elfy> ochosi: true enough
[16:00] <knome> ochosi, we don't test the core image *very much*
[16:01] <ochosi> yeah, not yet
[16:01] <knome> elfy, no comments about not testing the main images :P
[16:01] <knome> but yeah...
[16:01] <elfy> ha ha 
[16:01] <ochosi> but i dunno if it really needs special testing as soon as it's established that the approach works
[16:01] <ochosi> most of what's there is the same as in the main image
[16:01] <knome> as i very theoretically asked elfy one day:
[16:01] <elfy> lol 
[16:01] <knome> if we tested the core image with installations, would we really need to test the main image?
[16:02] <elfy> I gave a theoretical answer based on experience :p
[16:02] <knome> because the core is the same, main image just brings applications, which are tested separately anyway..
[16:02] <slickymasterWork> not all of them knome 
[16:02] <knome> slickymasterWork, then we should reconsider what core is
[16:02] <knome> but that was just theoretical
[16:02] <slickymasterWork> point taken
[16:02] <knome> having a smaller image to download for the ISO test might mean more people would be enabled to test
[16:03] <knome> *might*
[16:03] <knome> but that's the discussion
[16:03] <knome> and we definitely should get this on the list for broader discussion within the team
[16:03] <slickymasterWork> agreed
[16:03] <knome> #action knome to send an email about ISO size target(s)
[16:03] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to send an email about ISO size target(s)
[16:04] <ochosi> sounds good
[16:04] <ochosi> let's do those ML threads after each other though
[16:04] <ochosi> and not all at the same time
[16:04] <ochosi> (just saying)
[16:04] <knome> btw, i don't know if we've the limit to 1Gb in the automatic prober
[16:04] <slickymasterWork> knome ^^^:P
[16:04] <knome> i mean, the download pages notify when images are too large
[16:04] <knome> ochosi, what! :P
[16:04] <elfy> ochosi: which mails - ALL of them ?
[16:04] <knome> stupid..
[16:05] <elfy> I'd say crack the game one out of the way first 
[16:05] <ochosi> yup
[16:05] <elfy> then do ISO size - then push the LO one again
[16:05] <knome> ochosi, mister mail scheduler, will you tell me when it's ok to send mail to the list then :P
[16:05] <slickymasterWork> and we're still two more to deal with
[16:05] <ochosi> hehe
[16:05] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[16:05] <ochosi> just saying, maybe leave a few days between them is all
[16:06] <elfy> :)
[16:06] <slickymasterWork> ahahaha
[16:06] <elfy> the iso size and LO thing can easily move onto 15.10 cycle imho
[16:06] <slickymasterWork> and the GIMP one also, IMO
[16:07] <elfy> especially given than beta starts soon and I'll be mailing left right and centre :D
[16:07] <knome> let's postpone $everything to march 2016
[16:07] <knome> elfy, spammer!
[16:07] <elfy> ok - so anything else? 
[16:07] <ochosi> postpone all the things!
[16:08] <knome> elfy, yes...
[16:08] <knome> time for coffee :P
[16:08] <knome> end the meeting!
[16:08] <elfy> #action ochosi to postpone all things
[16:08] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to postpone all things
[16:08] <elfy> #undo
[16:08] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
[16:08] <ochosi> :D
[16:08] <knome> what a loved leader is he
[16:08] <elfy> #action bluesabre to set up next meeting 
[16:08] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to set up next meeting
[16:08] <elfy> #endmeeting
[16:08] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 30 16:08:35 2015 UTC.  
[16:08] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-01-30-15.00.moin.txt
[16:08] <knome> thanks elfy and others
[16:08] <elfy> thanks everyone :)
[16:08] <slickymasterWork> thanks all
[16:09] <ochosi> thanks elfy!
[16:09] <ochosi> and everyone else
[16:09] <GridCube> :D
[16:09] <elfy> I'll get on with scratching my head about getting logs done and meeting page tidied up 
[16:09]  * genii hears something about coffee, investigates, then wanders out again
[16:10] <ochosi> mmm, coffee!
[16:10] <ochosi> good idea
[16:17] <elfy> logs are up 
[16:18] <elfy> though #done appears to show up as #action - that's a vicious circle ...
[16:22] <knome> heh
[16:22] <knome> poke lderan 
[16:22] <elfy> lderan: poke
[16:22] <elfy> :p
[16:22] <elfy> dude - #done shows up as #action again - that's nasty - I'll action you next time :p
[16:23] <elfy> then you'll have to sort out #done 
[16:23] <knome> :P
[16:23] <elfy> like that? 
[16:23] <knome> yes
[16:24] <elfy> good - I'd hate to have to poke lderan again 
[16:24] <knome> hehe
[16:25] <knome> elfy, what about the minutes? :P
[16:25] <elfy> they're there aren't they? 
[16:31] <knome> elfy, you linked to the log on the mailing list: P
[16:31] <knome> the minutes have a link to the log
[16:31] <elfy> oh well 
[16:31] <knome> he :)
[16:31] <elfy> people mostly ignore my mails anyway :p
[16:31] <knome> nope
[16:32] <knome> i don't at least, i just don't always reply ;)
[16:32] <elfy> :)
[16:32] <knome> bbl
[17:13] <elfy> and ummm
[17:13] <elfy> so next Thursday 14.04.2 which I've not even thought about - there might be some milestone testing next week
[22:43] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, Does parole work with clutter-gst-3.0?
[23:28] <bluesabre> Noskcaj: it works with the clutter backend in vivid, if that answers the question
[23:30] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, There is now a new clutter release which will probably be in vivid as well as 2.0, so could you please add porting that to your TODO list?
[23:30] <Noskcaj> ppa:noskcaj/clutter for binaries
[23:54] <bluesabre> Noskcaj: thanks, I'll see if any changes are needed on parole, that should be the only clutter-based thing we have
[23:54] <Noskcaj> :)