[03:21] <elfy> hi chilicuil
[03:22] <elfy> chilicuil: did you go any further with the forum issue yet?
[03:24] <chilicuil> elfy: hey elfi, not yet, I've comment it to the team though, we're still evaluating alternatives, thanks for the follow up =)
[03:25] <elfy> you're welcome - not often I'm actually up when I see you join channel(s)
[16:00] <sil2100> o/
[16:00] <mvo> hi
[16:01] <barry> \o
[16:01] <jodh> o/
[16:02] <cyphermox> o/
[16:02] <caribou> o/
[16:02] <mvo> steve and I are in a call still
[16:02] <barry> ah
[16:02] <mvo> should end soon i hope
[16:02] <jodh> I'm in that call too :)
[16:02] <mvo> oh, sorry
[16:02] <mvo> indeed
[16:03]  * barry can start the meeting
[16:03] <barry> #startmeeting
[16:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 19 16:03:12 2015 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:03] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:03] <mvo> thanks barry
[16:03] <barry> give me a few moments folks...
[16:04] <infinity> o/
[16:04] <barry> #topic lightning round
[16:05] <barry> echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
[16:05] <barry> sil2100 caribou robru doko slangasek stgraber mvo barry jodh bdmurray infinity cyphermox
[16:05] <barry> sil2100: you're up!
[16:05]  * cyphermox is starting to think shuf knows about him, and sorts 'cy' towards the end.
[16:05] <sil2100> Oh!
[16:05] <sil2100> I didn't expect that
[16:06] <sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
[16:06] <sil2100> - Trying to debug/triage some of the strange CI Train problems sighted on Friday
[16:06] <caribou> sil2100: I can start if you want
[16:06] <sil2100> - Promotion of the RC image for the ww07-2015 milestone
[16:06] <sil2100> - Documenting the ww07-2015 milestone on the reports page
[16:06] <sil2100> - Attending RTM status meetings
[16:06] <sil2100> - Tending the ww09-2015 milestone, coordinating landings and fixes
[16:06] <sil2100> - Experimenting with custom tarball creation for ubuntu-rtm mako * Poking around and learning about apparmor cache re-creation
[16:06] <sil2100> - Archive diff automated scripts * Implemented proper deep version differencing between archives * Made the binary -> source conversion more efficient
[16:06] <sil2100> - Improve error handling for commitlog generation
[16:06] <sil2100> - A short patch-pilot duty
[16:06] <sil2100> (done)
[16:06] <caribou> Bugfix:
[16:06] <sil2100> hm, it pasted strangely
[16:06] <caribou>  - Upload of Firmware assisted dump support for ppc64el to Vivid (LP: #1415562)
[16:06] <caribou> - CUPS : SRU for bug #1352809 (-h override)
[16:06] <caribou> - rsyslog memory leak (LP: #1423586)
[16:07] <caribou>  - libvirtd lost floating IP
[16:07] <caribou> Prepare CTS sprint
[16:07] <caribou> Work on deja-dup FTBS (test needs fixing)
[16:07] <caribou> (done)
[16:07] <robru> * Train:
[16:07] <robru>   - ported test suite from nose to nose2 at barry's recommendation
[16:07] <robru>   - fixed a couple of unhandled exceptions in rare corner cases discovered in last weeks' build.py rewrite
[16:07] <robru>   - started a branch for pushing merged branches to LP at build time instead of publish time (but didn't land this yet)
[16:07] <robru>   - started generating full silo content diffs at build time
[16:07] <robru>   - in response to disk space crisis, added a cleanup step that deletes extra copies of built packages after they're no longer needed (eg, versions from distro are downloaded for diffing, and then those get left around taking up space; deleting them halves the silo disk usage after diffs are generated)
[16:07] <robru>   - discovered a case where two silos containing the same package were published at the same time; the usual check that prevents this failed due to a race condition, experimented with a branch to resolve this but it's incomplete.
[16:07] <robru>   - removed the mandatory 5 minute pause at the start of the watch phase; this has no effect on builds but speeds up WATCH_ONLY runs on already-built silos from 5 minutes to 20 seconds.
[16:07] <robru>   - merged watch_ppa.py into build.py because it no longer made sense for those modules to be separate (watch_ppa.py contained a lot of boilerplate that duplicated what was already handled better by the new build.py; merging them resulted in the watch_ppa.py logic taking up half as many lines of code with no feature regressions)
[16:07] <robru>   - streamlined a couple untested packagemanager.py functions and wrote tests for them
[16:07] <robru>   - modified build.py to start recording the revno of the branch it merges, and modified publisher.py to check these revnos and prevent publication if a branch contains a new, unbuilt revno.
[16:07] <robru>   - attempted running the test suite under py3 and started fixing the easiest of bugs, however there's a large class of unicode bugs I've yet to understand.
[16:07] <barry> robru: \o/
[16:08] <barry> robru: feel free to ping me about those
[16:09] <barry> i think doko is not here today
[16:09] <barry> slangasek: are you ready or should we come back to you?
[16:09] <robru> barry: yeah I need to read about unicode, I do not understand it very well atall
[16:10] <barry> robru: i have some excellent links and resources i'll pass along
[16:10] <robru> barry: thanks
[16:10] <barry> let's come back to slangasek
[16:10] <sak> 51 minutes until the meeting
[16:10] <barry> stgraber: are you here today?
[16:10] <mvo> robru: very impressive list :)
[16:10] <robru> mvo: thanks ;-)
[16:10] <barry> let's come back to stgraber, tho i'm not sure he's here today
[16:11] <barry> mvo: you're up if you want, or we can come back
[16:11] <mvo> click:
[16:11] <mvo> - merge review feedback from barry, thanks!
[16:11] <mvo> - New click 0.4.37, mostly SDK fixes
[16:11] <mvo> growisosfs:
[16:11] <mvo> - merge fix for blue-ray burning bts #713016 (LP: #113679) + SRU
[16:11] <mvo> unattended-upgrades:
[16:11] <mvo> - Review/merge fix for #1422345 and upload new version (thanks Brian!)
[16:11] <mvo> snappy:
[16:11] <mvo> - prepare new alpha3 with snappy-go as part of the release
[16:11] <mvo> - lots of features/fixes/improvements for snappy-go
[16:11] <mvo>   (include fixes to make the code go vet/go-lint clean)
[16:11] <mvo> - spec/implemented snappy config (with examples)
[16:11] <mvo> (done)
[16:11] <mvo> eh, thats not the right bugnumber
[16:12] <slangasek> barry: right, hi, here now :)
[16:12] <slangasek> but I have nothing written ;-D
[16:12] <mvo> bug #11133679
[16:12] <barry> slangasek: no worries, we'll come back to you
[16:12] <barry> short week due to usa holiday.
[16:12] <barry> si: LP: #1421434.  LP: #1387719.  lots of testing for 3.0 release.  built 3.0 package for citrain; testing and debugging build failures.  started to look at the server code; filed one mp with more to come.  (server needs some changes to support si 3.0)
[16:12] <barry> other: click reviews for mvo.  lots of discussion upstream and elsewhere about python zip file distributions (single-file executables).  investigated several tools.  began working with pex.
[16:12] <barry> debuntu: debian bug 778708 (pex ITP)
[16:12] <barry> --done--
[16:12] <mvo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dvd+rw-tools/+bug/1113679
[16:13] <mvo> barry: \o/ for the reviews
[16:13] <barry> mvo: np!  ping me if you need more
[16:13] <barry> jodh: are you around today?
[16:13] <mvo> barry: there are still some open but no real rush
[16:13] <jodh> * snappy:
[16:13] <jodh>   - Reworked bug 1412737 after discovering the original code didn't work
[16:13] <jodh>     in a chroot:
[16:13] <jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/snappy/bug-1412737/+merge/249976
[16:13] <jodh>   - Wrote a "Snappy Image Tests" doc that documents the tests to run for
[16:13] <jodh>     a promotion candiate:
[16:13] <jodh>     https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1R_Tw0N0QbEpjFeYf9XnVV8Gp8ldT2Ig0PO6MfR-kuSM/edit
[16:13] <jodh>   - Investigated an issue raised on #snappy (bug 1423529) that uncovered a couple of
[16:13] <jodh>     initramfs bugs. Tested fix and awaiting comments:
[16:13] <jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/ubuntu/vivid/initramfs-tools-ubuntu-core/bug-1423529
[16:13] <jodh>   - Code reviews and MP prep.
[16:13] <jodh>   - Promotion candidate testing.
[16:14] <jodh> * misc:
[16:14] <jodh>   - perf review admin.
[16:14] <jodh> ⚽
[16:14] <barry> mvo: cool.  i'll take a look while my long friggin' tests are running :)
[16:14] <mvo> barry: hehe
[16:14] <bdmurray> investigation into errors oops regarding event greenlets
[16:14] <bdmurray> submitted RT to have staging version of gunicorn updated
[16:14] <bdmurray> tested backport of gunicorn to precise in canonistack (good)
[16:14] <bdmurray> tested gunicorn update on staging / production version of daisy and errors FEs (good)
[16:14] <bdmurray> review of Error Tracker OOPS reports, setup exception handling for LP not returning JSON
[16:14] <bdmurray> pinged webops regarding kicking retracers
[16:14] <bdmurray> foundations bug triage
[16:14] <bdmurray> submitted git pull request to upstream unattended-upgrades fixing LP: #1422345
[16:14] <bdmurray> uploaded unattended-upgrades fix for LP: #1422345 to T and U
[16:14] <bdmurray> uploaded update-manager fix for LP: #1421044
[16:14] <bdmurray> uploaded a fix for ubuntu-release-upgrade KDE frontend bug (LP: #1423279)
[16:14] <bdmurray> SRU verification of whoopsie Utopic fix for LP: #1217407
[16:14] <mvo> bdmurray: \o/ for the unattended-upgrades fix!
[16:14] <bdmurray> SRU verification of apport Utopic fix for LP: #1084979
[16:14] <bdmurray> recreated and reported apport bug LP: #1423382
[16:14] <bdmurray> pinged cyphermox regarding merge proposal for bug LP: #1325801
[16:14] <bdmurray> performance review
[16:14] <bdmurray> short week due to Monday Holiday
[16:15] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[16:15] <infinity> Last week:
[16:15] <infinity>  - Was at Linaro Connect all week, good sessions, good conversations
[16:15] <infinity>  - Got a new ARMv8 board to play with, when I find some "spare" time
[16:15] <infinity> This week:
[16:15] <infinity>  - Point release, point release, point release, point release!
[16:15] <infinity>  - Some kernel SRU wrangling
[16:15] <infinity>  - General SRU and AA reviews and maintenance
[16:15] <infinity> (done)
[16:15] <cyphermox>  * partman-auto upload as per last week
[16:15] <cyphermox>  * continued investigation on ppc64el bootloader installation issue.
[16:15] <cyphermox>  * Patch pilot on Monday: grub-installer, live-build, resiprocate
[16:15] <cyphermox>  * Fixed minor bug in network-manager-openconnect.
[16:15] <cyphermox>  * Reviewed/looked into bug 1422924.
[16:15] <cyphermox>  * Reviewed MP for usb-creator bug 1325801
[16:16] <cyphermox>  * Discussed debian-installer arm64 changes with dannf.
[16:16] <cyphermox>  * Looked into bug 1422864 in ubiquity with infinity.
[16:16] <cyphermox>  * SRU for installation-guide, efibootmgr.
[16:16] <cyphermox>  * ubiquity: bug 1418105.
[16:16] <cyphermox>  * Reviewing mate-menu, mate-tweak for sponsoring.
[16:16] <cyphermox> (done)
[16:16] <barry> slangasek: ready?
[16:17] <barry> going once
[16:17] <slangasek>  * short week due to holiday on Monday
[16:17] <slangasek>  * very focused on snappy
[16:17] <slangasek>   * image promotion in progress for this week
[16:17] <slangasek>   * armhf device tarball generation has needed straightening out
[16:17] <slangasek>   * reviewing branch for grub failover handling
[16:17] <slangasek>   * looking at initramfs handling of partitions being mounted without fsck; looking to figure out how to do less in the initramfs
[16:17] <slangasek>  * need to get nfs-utils systemdified today so we can make the switch to systemd by default
[16:17] <slangasek>  * performance reviews!  If you haven't done your self-eval yet, do it yesterday!  If you haven't sent me your selections for 360 review, do that today!
[16:17] <slangasek> infinity: speaking of last-minute switching to systemd, are you sending the announcement about Feature Freeze?
[16:17] <slangasek> oh, and (done)
[16:18] <barry> thanks
[16:18] <infinity> slangasek: I'm delaying feature freeze until I get all the features in that I want!
[16:18] <cyphermox> nice plan
[16:18] <infinity> slangasek: (Yeah, I should send the email later tonight, after point release stuff is done)
[16:18] <barry> infinity: yay!  i can sneak a few in too then
[16:18] <robru> infinity: MOAR FEACHURES!
[16:18] <barry> #topic AOB
[16:18] <sil2100> hah
[16:18] <slangasek> infinity: ok, no hurry! ;)
[16:18] <sil2100> ;)
[16:19] <sil2100> slangasek: what about the standing FFe?
[16:19] <barry> does anybody have anything else fun or interesting to discuss?
[16:19] <sil2100> slangasek: did you have a moment to comment?
[16:19] <slangasek> sil2100: I'll follow up on that discussion
[16:19] <sil2100> Ok, thanks :)
[16:20] <slangasek> AOB> do the performance review stuff ;)
[16:20] <barry> slangasek: at least the site isn't as horribly painful this time around :)
[16:20] <barry> okay, let's me this short!
[16:20] <barry> #endmeeting
[16:20] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 16:20:54 2015 UTC.
[16:20] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-19-16.03.moin.txt
[16:21] <jodh> thanks!
[16:21] <caribou> thanks barry
[16:21] <mvo> thanks
[16:21] <dannf> cyphermox, infinity : yeah - and i put out a MP for smoser's code to deal w/ the d-i/arm64 changes. i'll go ahead and push that unless there's an objection
[16:21] <dannf> oh crikey, missed infinity
[16:21] <barry> dannf: try #ubuntu-devel
[16:22] <cyphermox> dannf: like I mentioned it looked fine but it would be good to have other eyeballs on it, some who've seen more of the arm64 stuff.
[16:22] <dannf> cyphermox: yeah, i'll ping infinity
[16:23] <cyphermox> alright
[16:59] <hannie> Hello GunnarHj
[16:59] <GunnarHj> hannie: Hi!
[17:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj, hannie, Hi.
[17:00] <hannie> hey dsmythies I was just looking for dou or smy in the list :)
[17:00] <GunnarHj> Hi dsmythies
[17:02] <elfy> hi :)
[17:02] <elfy> #startmeeting
[17:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 19 17:02:40 2015 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:02] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:03] <hannie> hi elfy
[17:03] <elfy> #chair dholbach_
[17:03] <meetingology> Current chairs: dholbach_ elfy
[17:03] <dholbach_> hiya
[17:04] <elfy> #topic CC Catchup with the Doc Team
[17:04] <dholbach_> hello - how are you doing?
[17:04] <elfy> nice to see you all :)
[17:04] <dholbach> how are things in the doc team?
[17:05] <GunnarHj> Low activity, unfortunately.
[17:05] <dsmythies> O.K. I posted a pathetic litttle update on the agenda (albeit with less than 24 hours until now)
[17:05] <hannie> I was just reading the agenda update
[17:05] <octoquad> Evening :)
[17:06] <dsmythies> GunnarHj, yes low activity.
[17:07] <elfy> seems rather a common comment for sure :)
[17:07] <dsmythies> there has been a spurt on xubuntu the last few days, and serverguide.
[17:07] <elfy> yea - I know about xubuntu :)
[17:07] <dholbach> how do you organise most of your work? is it bug reports? or anything else?
[17:08] <dsmythies> I mainly work of infastructure and behind the scenes stuff. I just do it.
[17:08] <GunnarHj> As for the desktop guide: Mostly bug reports indeed.
[17:08] <dsmythies> GunnarHj is usually aware of what I am up to.
[17:08] <hannie> Today is the string freeze?
[17:08] <GunnarHj> The good news is that not much is happening with the Unity desktop right now.
[17:08] <dholbach> feature freeze
[17:09] <dholbach> so you have a list of bugs people could start working on, if they wanted?
[17:09] <dsmythies> Today is an arbitrary string freeze for point releases of the serverguide. both 12.04 and 14.04
[17:09] <dholbach> ah ok
[17:09] <GunnarHj> dholbach: The bug list isn't very short either... But basically yes.
[17:10] <GunnarHj> s/short/long/
[17:10] <dsmythies> bugs: yes, and Ian is picking away at some on the serverguide front.
[17:10] <dholbach> so that's some good news already - it looks like you're organised, even if you could do with more hands on deck
[17:11] <elfy> cloud docs got added recently didn't it  - iirc
[17:11] <dsmythies> In the end we are over dependant on myself and GunnarHj
[17:11] <dholbach> you mentioned that you would need server experts - did you get some help from the server team? or are you in touch with them?
[17:12] <elfy> mmm - depending on people can be unfortunate - especially for those depended on
[17:12] <dsmythies> Subject matter experts: Yes, Peter Matulis sends help requests to the server team list every cycle.
[17:12] <GunnarHj> Re desktop: I'd say we are on top of it right now. But I'm worrying about what's going to happen when the desktop changes significantly. This applies to both the official desktop guide and the Ubuntu manual.
[17:13] <dholbach> Do we have a feeling for how steep the learning curve is for new contributors to the docs team?
[17:14] <dsmythies> Cloud: Yes, after almost a year they have been added. We are happy with the two license apprroach, where the main license didn't chnage but canonical has NC on their stuff.
[17:14] <elfy> yea, I read that
[17:14] <dholbach> #chair YokoZar
[17:14] <elfy> #chair YokoZar
[17:14] <meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar dholbach_ elfy
[17:14] <dsmythies> leasnring curve: Yes, it is steep. I think some give up after becoming overwhlemed
[17:14] <elfy> ha :)
[17:15] <dholbach> do you think it could help to have something like a training session to learn "how to fix your first docs bug" or something like that? or did you try that already?
[17:15] <dsmythies> However, we have completley overhauled all the wiki pages , so at least they help rather than hinder now.
[17:15] <GunnarHj> Re learning curve: I'm not sure I agree with dsmythies on that. It's not rocket science. Anybody who really wants to contribute can do so.
[17:15] <sak> What are contributor finding overwhelming with the Docs team?
[17:16] <dsmythies> The extrodinary amount of time it takes to get anything done.
[17:16] <elfy> GunnarHj: well I know that I for one end up scratching my head a lot when I'm editing wiki's :)
[17:16] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But it's a one time effort.
[17:17] <dsmythies> training: we did a big thing almost a year ago. Nobody came to it. I wouldn't do it again.
[17:17] <sak> dsmythies, how long does it usually take to write a wiki manual?
[17:17] <dsmythies> Beats me, I don't work on the wiki.
[17:17] <GunnarHj> elfy: Ok.. Contributing to the official docs is slightly more complicated..ö
[17:17] <elfy> :)
[17:18] <sak> Is the official docs and the wiki the same of different? Just so I am clear on the two.
[17:18] <sak> or different
[17:18] <dsmythies> ... other than I was heavily involved in the docs team pages overhaul
[17:18] <elfy> anyone thought of running a session at UOS?
[17:19] <dsmythies> what is UOS
[17:19] <dholbach> Could it help to try to separate the task of writing the content from bringing it into the right form/format?
[17:19] <dholbach> dsmythies, Ubuntu Online Summit
[17:19] <elfy> dsmythies: the online summit
[17:19] <wxl> elfy: for docs?
[17:20] <GunnarHj> sak: They are to separate beasts. Any Ubuntu user can add stuff to the wiki, while only the dedicated team can commit to the official docs.
[17:20] <GunnarHj> s/to/two/
[17:20] <elfy> why not - run a community track
[17:20] <elfy> wxl: ^^
[17:20] <sak> Thank you gunnarhj
[17:21] <wxl> dholbach: you mean a wyswig editor? :-)
[17:21] <wxl> elfy: We should always have a community track!
[17:21] <dsmythies> I do not understand "community track"
[17:22] <elfy> dsmythies: track would be a session the doc team ran in UOS - talk about what you do, try and drum up some new blood
[17:22] <dholbach> wxl, I just thought a bit longer about the steep learning curve now and wondered if it would help to break up a task like "document how to do X" would be easier or had a better chance of getting done, if the task of writing up the content, ie detailing the instructions, etc. was separated from bringing it in the right form (Mallard or Docbook or moin format or whatever)
[17:23] <dholbach> that way the learning curve was probably a bit less steep, because writing up the content AND bringing it into the right form AND using a merge proposal might be a bit hard for some
[17:23] <wxl> dholbach: well, then you need a parser or something to make it reasonable, or a wyswig editor
[17:24] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Something worth considering, maybe. Simply encourage people to contribute content in some raw format...
[17:24] <dholbach> wxl, ok, I was thinking more of a more experienced member of the team who could help with massaging content into the right format :)
[17:24] <octoquad> Any plans for markdown, rst or textile support?
[17:24] <wxl> dholbach: i've done it before with training people but it's a PAIN
[17:24] <sak> Perhaps and editor that converts the content into the right form?
[17:24] <wxl> octoquad: well, moin supports rst, but you add the rst IN the moin, which is stupid because people that don't know rst can't properly maintain it
[17:24] <dsmythies> We did some summit sessions over a few cycles, particulary when pleia2 was more involved.
[17:25] <octoquad> wxl, I see, I suppose better UI editing tools might help to structure the text for someone who doesn't know the raw markup
[17:25] <elfy> dsmythies: ok - did it help at that time?
[17:25] <hannie> We tried to let contributors write in raw format, but it was too much work for others to get it right, so we decided to stop it.
[17:25] <dsmythies> plans for rst or whatever changes: thsi always comes up. It would be a ton of work and what people want to change to changes every quarter. I want not part of it.
[17:26] <GunnarHj> hannie: Ok..
[17:26] <hannie> I mean at The Ubuntu Manual
[17:26] <wxl> octoquad: true, true, personally i LOOOOOOATHE moin, but that's another storry
[17:26] <wxl> i *REALLY* think we need to support markdown. it's largely becoming the de facto standard for lightweight markup
[17:26] <dholbach> maybe it could be tried in a smaller scale
[17:26] <octoquad> perhaps, wiki content should be structured per cycle and cloned on a new cycle, with some type of inherentice of previous cycle text?
[17:27] <dholbach> just to see if somebody would be willing to help with formatting
[17:27] <octoquad> content stays relevant per cycle
[17:27] <wxl> rst makes sense because it's the canonical python markup, but that doesn't mean anything. i mean, jeez, moin moin is in py and they don't support it :/
[17:27] <octoquad> and better UI tools to manage markdown.
[17:27] <octoquad> s/markdown/markup
[17:28] <wxl> i have strong feelings about markup languages. i MAY be interested in helping develop a ui tool
[17:28] <dholbach> converting to a new system and build system is a very big investment
[17:28] <wxl> or at least the parser if soneone is more handy with front end
[17:28] <sak> wxl, what is rst?
[17:28] <octoquad> wxl, I'm keen as well
[17:28] <wxl> sak: reStucturedText
[17:28] <dholbach> sak, restructured text
[17:28] <dsmythies> elfy: Summit: Such things always create a stir, but then fades back to normal.
[17:28] <sak> I see, and its benefits?
[17:28] <wxl> sak: another lightweight markup language like moin moin, markdown, textile, etc. etc. etc.
[17:28] <wxl> sak: oh god, don't get started on the markup wars :)
[17:29] <GunnarHj> The low activity problem tends to end up in endless discussions on markup languages. ;) The principal issue is the low interest in contributing, I'm afraid.
[17:29] <sak> lol, we are having one now
[17:29] <wxl> sak: the one obvious benefit is that it's a python tool, so python supports it well
[17:29] <octoquad> GunnarHj, perhaps that's where the problem arises from?
[17:29] <dsmythies> I agree with GunnarHj
[17:29] <GunnarHj> octoquad: I doubt it.
[17:29] <octoquad> GunnarHj, if things were a lot easier you might get a bit more contributions
[17:29] <wxl> GunnarHj: we have a very enthusiastic new head of docs/wiki in lubuntu. he may be willing to help, but having clear details about what needs to be done would be helpful
[17:30] <sak> wxl, nice, something I am becoming familiar with
[17:30] <elfy> I just wonder if running a session would help - even if it only results in a couple of new contributors
[17:30] <wxl> a session will always help
[17:30] <wxl> at worst you'll have some sort of presentation you can show to noobs
[17:30] <dholbach> especially if it's going to be recorded, people can watch it later on again
[17:30] <wxl> and they are
[17:31] <elfy> that for sure dholbach
[17:31] <dsmythies> Please note: I am not very IRC savy, and am having trouble keeping up.
[17:31] <wxl> at least given current technology
[17:31] <elfy> dsmythies: that's ok :)
[17:31] <GunnarHj> I think there was a pretty good session for about a year ago which might be resued.
[17:31] <dholbach> cool
[17:31] <wxl> if no one in docs has experience with it, i'd be happy to help
[17:32] <GunnarHj> wxl: Thanks, noted. ;)
[17:32] <sak> training session I have always found helpful. Takes out the guess work
[17:32] <dholbach> would it help to help review the current "get involved" docs again to see how understandable they are for a newcomer? or is there anything else the CC could help with?
[17:32] <wxl> dholbach: not a bad idea. i could find some fresh eyes to show them to
[17:32] <elfy> I'd happily run through those get involved docs
[17:33] <dholbach> same here
[17:33] <dholbach> and probably others in ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com :)
[17:33] <wxl> hehehe
[17:33] <elfy> yep
[17:33] <GunnarHj> Sounds great. Looking forward to your feedback.
[17:33] <dholbach> :-)
[17:33] <elfy> GunnarHj dsmythies - anything else we could help you with?
[17:34] <sak> The lubuntu QA getting stared wiki was well written. I can help overview the getting started docs page
[17:34] <dholbach> YokoZar, pleia2, mhall119, elfy, czajkowski: any more questions from you?
[17:34] <GunnarHj> Think it's ok for today. Thanks all!
[17:34] <elfy> not from me dholbach
[17:34] <dholbach> thanks a lot for your tireless work - I really appreciate it
[17:34] <dsmythies> Yes, O.K.
[17:35] <wxl> thanks everyone :)
[17:35] <wxl> actually
[17:35] <sak> I take the meeting is over?
[17:35] <wxl> GunnarHj dsmythies could one of you link me to the instructions on dealing with the manual formatting?
[17:35] <dholbach> maybe we should start a discussion on the community team list too, just to see if we can come up with some more ideas to improve the situation
[17:35] <elfy> GunnarHj dsmythies - if one of you wants to point me at the 'start helping' page I'll start looking
[17:35] <wxl> (or bring it up on the community team list)
[17:36] <dsmythies> just a sec
[17:36] <wxl> ((which might be better))
[17:36] <GunnarHj> We'll get back on the list.
[17:36] <wxl> sounds good thanks
[17:36] <dholbach> thanks a lot
[17:36] <dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
[17:37] <dsmythies> Oh, or on list , per Gunnr
[17:37] <dholbach> elfy, are we meeting up with anyone else today?
[17:37] <hannie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
[17:38] <elfy> dholbach: QA team
[17:38] <dholbach> ah cool
[17:38] <wxl> horray for QA team
[17:38] <dholbach> do we have anyone here from our QA overlords?
[17:39] <elfy> thanks dsmythies GunnarHj hannie
[17:39] <dsmythies> Yes, and thank you
[17:39] <wxl> well, i'm not one of the overlords
[17:39] <elfy> and many thanks from me for what you all do :)
[17:39] <GunnarHj> np; thank you!
[17:39] <elfy> #topic QA Team Catchup
[17:40] <elfy> and I can be here with Xubuntu QA hat on too :)
[17:40] <hannie> bye
[17:40] <dholbach> thanks again
[17:40] <YokoZar> Thank you
[17:40] <wxl> ← lubuntu qa dewd
[17:41] <wxl> where's balloons ??
[17:41] <dholbach> who else? balloons maybe?
[17:41] <octoquad> <- Ubuntu Gnome QA
[17:41] <dholbach> nice
[17:41] <elfy> hi octoquad :)
[17:41] <octoquad> howdy elfy  :)
[17:41] <wxl> oh wow octoquad you're like, what, one of three? XD
[17:41] <elfy> balloons should be here representing :D
[17:41] <balloons> it's time already?
[17:41] <octoquad> wxl, huh? lol
[17:41] <dholbach> yes yes, it is
[17:41] <elfy> hey balloons - welcome :)
[17:42] <wxl> octoquad: nevermind :)
[17:42] <dholbach> how are things in QA land? how are you all doing?
[17:42]  * balloons screws head on for UTC time
[17:42] <octoquad> wxl, soz, you mean in the QA team
[17:42] <wxl> i'm whooped after 14.04.2
[17:42] <wxl> if infinity wasn't in my time zone, i would have killed myself by now XD
[17:43] <balloons> qa land is doing well. We're anticipating unity8 on the desktop, and more phones in the wild on the touch side of the fence
[17:43] <elfy> dholbach: well ... it's been tough getting people involved for us - but we got 94 testing reports for the trusty release today
[17:43] <dholbach> so we're mostly talking about release testing here?
[17:44] <wxl> i just got a nexus 4, so i've started working on finding my way through the labryinth that is touch testing ;)
[17:44] <wxl> i'm working on some t-shirts to encourage more involvement in lubuntu qa testing
[17:44] <balloons> elfy's correct on release testing. Trying to ensure it gets tested is getting harder
[17:44] <wxl> i'm going to have a contest of some sort
[17:44] <dholbach> so when we're talking about QA efforts here, are we focusing mostly on release/image testing?
[17:45] <elfy> mostly from my pov
[17:45] <wxl> dholbach: well, that does tend to be a large amount of our focus, and is certainly of greatest importance
[17:45] <wxl> generally all other testing is "preventative"
[17:45] <dholbach> it is super important, of course
[17:46] <dholbach> elfy, you said that it was harder to get people involved - was that across the board across image/release testing?
[17:46] <octoquad> 14.04.2 testing was pretty good compared to vivid for Ubuntu Gnome
[17:47] <wxl> there were a PLETHORA of rebuilds in 14.04.2
[17:47] <wxl> so while the final numbers may not show it, there certainly was a fair amount of testing
[17:47] <elfy> dholbach: it has been, Xubuntu are running a bit if a drive with stickers and things :) http://xubuntu.org/news/help-the-community-with-testing-and-win-xubuntu-stickers/
[17:47] <wxl> incidentially xubuntu is who lubuntu is copying
[17:47] <wxl> but we have t-shirts XD
[17:47] <wxl> kubuntu got no testing done
[17:47] <elfy> we will too - but not just yet
[17:48] <elfy> and books
[17:48] <wxl> netboot got barely touched
[17:48] <dholbach> I think netboot was always harder to cover
[17:48] <wxl> server got barely touched
[17:48] <wxl> upgrade got barely touched
[17:48] <wxl> other than that, most everyone got full testing done
[17:49] <wxl> lubuntu in particular had a problem with alternates that will leave us without those images
[17:49] <sak> Lots of images got barley touched it seems
[17:49] <wxl> release team will try to fix that after release
[17:49] <balloons> the altenate and ppc / netboot images are difficult
[17:49] <wxl> we discussed getting rid of alternates but really can't justify netboot as a viable solution for several reasons
[17:49] <octoquad> we had no upgrade path for 14.04.2 so nothing was tested
[17:50] <wxl> so there has been some discussion of making a text-only low resource front end to ubiquity
[17:50] <balloons> what's wrong with the debian installer?
[17:50] <dholbach> maybe we should have another chat on the community team list about this too to see where we can get more folks signed up for testing
[17:50] <balloons> or just wanting it to be the same?
[17:50] <wxl> balloons: sameness is a big goal in my mind, but the issue with this point releases seems to affect d-i in a way it doesn't affect ubiquity
[17:51] <sak> dholbach, that sounds like a a good idea
[17:51] <wxl> i mean the attitude on the release team is that they don't want to support the red haired child, you know? :)
[17:51] <balloons> one of the issues is that flavors and ubuntu are disconnected now on testing times. Ubuntu only does final beta image testing, while flavors do other milestones. But not all flavors do every milestone
[17:51] <balloons> We've definitely seen an overall drop in folks testing since we switched to this
[17:51] <wxl> balloons: yeah, i would say that the change to having the community handle release for early milestones was kind of a shock
[17:52] <balloons> In theory, rounding up folks do testing on the final beta image should be easier, but I think we've lost folks who would have done testing throughout the cycle and enjoyed it
[17:52] <wxl> agree
[17:53] <elfy> balloons: the forum team are still doing their thing - but hard to get them involved in trackers
[17:53] <dholbach> maybe we can think of a good way together to round up folks again and get them involved in more regular testing activities
[17:53] <wxl> yeah if i have to see another mailing list message with a long story about testing that doesn't get reported on the trackers.. argh
[17:53] <elfy> dholbach: not sure if you know, but there's an area on forum which is just for dev releases
[17:54] <dholbach> yep, I haven't been there for a while, but I know it exists :)
[17:54] <dholbach> maybe it'd also make sense to try to find out where people read most of our announcements
[17:54] <wxl> maybe we should get rid of early milestones altogether? i don't know.
[17:55] <wxl> i might want to talk to our dev team about that
[17:55] <elfy> wxl mmm
[17:55] <elfy> we're more likely to alpha for LTS
[17:55] <balloons> I would be in favor of not testing images early.. I liked the switch to final beta only
[17:56] <balloons> the difficulty then is coordinating work and getting people using the release before then. As elfy said, the forums are one place people congregate to do this stuff. I'm sure there's more
[17:56] <wxl> balloons: but is there automated testing going on otherwise?
[17:56] <elfy> jenkins looked stopped the other day, I think jibel said something about starting that up
[17:56] <balloons> wxl, sure there is (although it recently had issues, so nothing is happening with ubiquity testing atm. It is being fixed)
[17:56] <elfy> that ^^
[17:57] <octoquad> for vivid alpha 1 as an example it felt like it was an 14.10 image
[17:57] <balloons> I am trying to get them to make those tests more visible as well, but they need to be online again :-)
[17:57] <elfy> balloons: :)
[17:57] <wxl> maybe if flavors had guidance on dealing with automated testing, that might be a good transition
[17:57] <wxl> i mean, i've heard mention of them, but that's about it
[17:57] <elfy> I did use to look at the ubiquity jenkins - used the rss fail feed
[17:57] <wxl> octoquad: yeah, kind of what i was thinking. they're a waste in a way.
[17:58] <dholbach> sounds like a good topic for a few sessions :)
[17:58] <wxl> +1 dholbach
[17:58] <elfy> wxl: auto testing for us at least was a nightmare as balloons will attest I'm sure
[17:58] <balloons> the tracker is also a point of contention, and we have seen some success in trying to fix long standing issues. But they are still there
[17:58] <wxl> balloons: i'm sure you don't have anything else on your plate right? XD
[17:58] <elfy> not sure that's ever going to happen
[17:58] <dholbach> round up all QA experts and have a day of   Ubuntu  QA TV   :)
[17:58] <wxl> elfy: why for?
[17:58] <balloons> automated testing of flavors is difficult indeed. The older toolkits just don't lend themselves to it
[17:59] <wxl> ah
[17:59] <wxl> bummer
[17:59] <wxl> is kubuntu doing automated testing?
[17:59] <dholbach> balloons, autopkgtest?
[17:59] <dholbach> (where applicable of course)
[17:59] <balloons> if/when xubuntu is gtk3 it will be better. lubuntu is moving to qt and could definitely get UI tests
[17:59] <balloons> kubuntu as well could have a nice story, and I do believe they have a small suite
[18:00] <balloons> dholbach, yes, autopkgtest for the older stuff is as far as you can go
[18:00] <elfy> it would certainly be awesome :)
[18:00] <wxl> balloons: if you can train me on doing the automated testing, i can work with our dev team as we continue to develop lxqt
[18:00] <elfy> balloons: oh - so different?
[18:00]  * wxl spits in the general direction of gtk+
[18:00] <balloons> wxl, happy to. If you want to round up some folks from lubuntu who might be interested as well we can do some live hacking together on a lubuntu app
[18:00] <dholbach> nice... shall we discuss the possibility of a training event or some such on the community list? or other measures of getting people involved?
[18:01] <elfy> autopkg and autopilot differences - possibly we could use the former?
[18:01] <wxl> balloons: that'd be cool. propose a time and i'll see what i can do with the cat herding :)
[18:01] <balloons> elfy, gtk2 vs gtk3? yes, as you know gtk2 apps with xubuntu don't like to be introspected :-)
[18:01] <elfy> indeed :D
[18:01] <wxl> balloons: and i cna talk to kubuntu folks, too
[18:01] <balloons> dholbach, we used to always attend the openweek sessions. Did those happen this time around?
[18:01]  * wxl uses kubuntu at work, so
[18:02] <balloons> wxl, awesome, I'll propose something on the list
[18:02] <wxl> balloons: sounds great
[18:02] <dholbach> balloons, I don't know - we should talk about it on the list
[18:02]  * balloons hopes someone is taking notes, lol
[18:02] <wxl> hahah
[18:02] <dholbach> I'll have a dinner at a friend's place to run to in a few - that's why I'm trying to push discussion to the list :)
[18:02] <octoquad> which list would that be?
[18:03] <dholbach> ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com could generate a bunch of ideas on how to get people involved
[18:03] <octoquad> ta, I'll sign up now
[18:03] <dholbach> eeeeeexcellent
[18:03] <dholbach> is there anything you feel the Community Council could help with?
[18:03] <elfy> would be useful I think - not much point in using qa m/l as that's a captive audience already imo
[18:03] <dholbach> YokoZar, pleia2, mhall119, elfy, czajkowski: any more questions from you?
[18:03] <balloons> elfy, good point actually
[18:04] <elfy> dholbach: nope - I'm quite up together on where QA is thanks
[18:04] <balloons> dholbach, yes your ideas and input on the list discussions would be excellent
[18:04] <balloons> thanks
[18:04] <dsmythies> On the bright side: I totally forgot to bring up the new launchpad servers were rolled out a few days ago, and the so very very very very annoying translations timeout issue seems to be solved. Bug 736005
[18:04] <elfy> I'll thank those of you others who do for your teams though - you do good work :)
[18:05] <balloons> yes, thanks for coming out as well and sharing your thoughts!
[18:05] <dholbach> yes!
[18:05] <elfy> dsmythies: thanks :)
[18:05] <dholbach> :)
[18:05] <elfy> dholbach: ok - well I'm good
[18:05] <elfy> YokoZar: anything from you
[18:05] <dholbach> thanks a lot everyone - thanks a lot for you hard work! over the last cycle's our QA has really come together - you've all made a tremendous difference
[18:05] <balloons> did sak make it?
[18:06] <balloons> ahh indeed
[18:06] <sak> Make it to the meeting balloons?
[18:06] <balloons> sak, yes, wanted to make sure you found us :-)
[18:06] <balloons> thanks for coming
[18:06] <wxl> oops phone
[18:06] <wxl> i miss anythinbg else?
[18:06] <wxl> OH
[18:06] <sak> It was a pleasure
[18:06] <wxl> i remembered i wanted to say sometthing
[18:07] <wxl> the switch to only having 2 days to officially test milestones was an interesting change, so i've been working hard to encourage more proactive testing
[18:07] <wxl> that's something i'd suggest to others if they haven't figured that one out XD
[18:08] <dholbach> ok cool
[18:08] <dholbach> thanks again everyone!
[18:08] <elfy> dholbach: anything else?
[18:08] <dholbach> I have to run now! A dinner is waiting! :)
[18:08] <elfy> #endmeeting
[18:08] <dholbach> elfy, not from me
[18:08] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 18:08:54 2015 UTC.
[18:08] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-19-17.02.moin.txt
[18:08] <dholbach> thanks a lot for running the meeting!
[18:09] <wxl> thanks all
[18:09] <elfy> got to run too :)
[18:09] <dholbach> take care everyone! thanks!
[18:09] <wxl> i'm off to work so have a good day :)
[18:09] <elfy> thanks everyone
[18:09] <balloons> cheers
[18:09] <sak> See you all on the next meeting
[18:09] <elfy> balloons: I'll catch you at some point re autopkg
[18:10] <balloons> elfy, ohh right sure
[18:10] <elfy> ha :p
[18:11] <elfy> you sound like you're looking forward to it :D
[18:11] <balloons> elfy, the short version is it's package level testing, and honestly I'm not sure it makes sense for desktop apps. libraries are certainly testable at that stage and make sense
[18:11] <elfy> aah ok - I guess you'd have suggested it before if you thought it would help us
[18:12] <balloons> however, they are harder to do; only because the tests themselves can be written however you wish.
[18:12] <balloons> elfy, right. I think having covering for common gtk2 stuff is the most helpful in your case
[18:12] <balloons> but moving to gtk3 means honestly it makes more sense to work on those
[18:12] <elfy> :)
[18:40] <samg> Its QA Meeting now?
[18:40] <samg> or did i miss it?
[18:40] <Mikaela> I think it might have been
[18:41] <samg> dammit
[18:41] <samg> missed it it was about an hour ago
[18:41] <Mikaela> 2015-02-19 20:08:54+0200 < meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-02-19-17.02.moin.txt
[18:42] <samg> thanks