[00:51] <bluesabre> knome: heyo
[00:51] <knome> wahh
[00:51] <knome> :)
[00:51] <knome> oh, haha
[00:51] <knome> wrong channel :)
[00:51] <bluesabre> ;)
[00:52] <bluesabre> but yeah, I think it will be the same as any SRU... we'll bring in releases that fix really prominent bugs
[00:52] <knome> yep
[00:56] <bluesabre> there we go
[00:57] <bluesabre> exactly 140 characters
[00:57] <bluesabre> "@Yanpask @Xubuntu As with any SRU, we will work to include releases that resolve high-impact bugs (http://bit.ly/1MPLF1t) affecting Trusty."
[00:57] <bluesabre> knome: sound good?
[00:57] <knome> wfm
[00:58]  * knome thinks the bluesabre twitter page is creepy with those grinning seans
[00:58] <knome> retweeted
[00:58] <bluesabre> knome: indeed, not sure when I got a nice background pic there
[00:58] <bluesabre> but its a bit much
[00:59] <knome> yes, it's a bit much ;)
[00:59] <bluesabre> knome: mind if I chop up a xubuntu wallpaper for my bg?
[00:59] <knome> not at all
[00:59] <pleia2> grinning seans <3
[01:00] <Unit193> Where is he grinning?
[01:00] <knome> Unit193, in his twitter page
[01:00] <knome> https://twitter.com/bluesabredavis
[01:00] <knome> well he removed the other pic too
[01:00] <knome> s/too/already/
[01:01] <Unit193> Ah, that's why.
[01:01] <knome> bluesabre, that orange is the best wallpaper cut i've ever seen
[01:01] <bluesabre> knome: it burns >.<
[01:06] <knome> bluesabre, did you have one of those good monitors? :P
[01:08] <bluesabre> there we go, thats an improvement
[01:08]  * bluesabre is not sure if the question has a good or bad connotation
[01:09] <knome> bluesabre, well if you have a better monitor, i don't wonder why it hurts... :P
[01:09] <knome> that's a weird cut, but ok :D
[01:09] <knome> bluesabre, why didn't you snatch the one from the xubuntu page while you were at it? :P
[01:10] <knome> bluesabre, https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/430282295/1397646039/1500x500
[01:14] <gmbs> Hi, folks. I'm Greg Blumenthal. I want to thank Elizabeth K. Joseph and everyone else at xubuntu.org for the opportunity to talk about Xubuntu in my work.
[01:15] <knome> hey gmbs, thank *you* :)
[01:18] <gmbs> Sheesh, it's been over 20 years since I last spent any time on IRC. Looks like the net-splits don't go away, huh?
[01:18] <bluesabre> knome: was going for the artsy-fartsy, ended up with more fartsy
[01:18] <knome> bluesabre, hehe
[01:19] <knome> gmbs, yeah, it's a never-ending story...
[01:21] <knome> gmbs, btw, if you hang around long enough, elizabeth will surely pop up, pleia2 is her nick :)
[01:22] <knome> oh, heh :)
[01:22] <knome> scared them away...
[01:22] <knome> gmbs, welcome back ;)
[01:22] <gmbs> NOW I remember IRC
[01:23] <knome> gmbs, if you didn't see this --> btw, if you hang around long enough, elizabeth will surely pop up, pleia2 is her nick :)
[01:23] <gmbs> I need to go make dinner for the family. I'll be back later.
[01:24] <knome> bon appetit!
[01:24] <gmbs> <--- not another net-split
[01:24] <bluesabre> gmbs: they might have even gotten worse :)
[01:25] <knome> heh
[01:53] <cyphermox> Unit193: could I get you or bluesabre (or any other xubuntu dev really) to look into how we can properly start the xfce session in ubiquity-dm to fix the dialog positioning issues elfy pointed out today?
[01:54] <cyphermox> Unit193: I noticed you made some changes before in ubiquity, I tried to revert them in case and it didn't fix things, but when I completely disable xfwm4 (not starting it at all) then ubiquity starts in the center of the screen as it should
[01:54] <cyphermox> so I'm thinking it might be something that isn't quite right in what programs are started to bring up the xfce session, or the order in which they get started
[02:09] <Unit193> cyphermox: Sure, though of course I'd volunteer bluesabre for you.
[02:39] <bluesabre> 20:48:31        bluesabre | brainvvash: registered now https://launchpad.net/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin
[02:39] <bluesabre> everybody have fun splitting?
[02:40] <brainvvash> thanks for creating the project site
[02:40] <bluesabre> I think I've linked everything appropriately
[02:41] <bluesabre> if gottcode shows up, let him know about it as well... I'll reassign admin of it to him if he wants it
[02:42] <brainvvash> it shows only the vivid series, is this expected?
[02:42] <brainvvash> https://launchpad.net/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin/+packages
[02:43] <bluesabre> fixed
[02:44] <brainvvash> awesome
[02:47] <cyphermox> bluesabre: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/02/25/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t01:53
[02:48] <bluesabre> cyphermox: thanks, I'll take a look at that
[02:48] <cyphermox> thanks
[02:49] <cyphermox> I'm logging off for the night now, back in standard working hours for EST timezone
[02:50] <Unit193> bluesabre: Why'd you do/need that?
[02:50] <bluesabre> Unit193: hm?
[02:51] <Unit193> whisker on LP.
[02:51] <bluesabre> has the benefit of pointing people upstream, and being able to do daily builds and whatnot
[02:51] <bluesabre> and
[02:51] <bluesabre> brainvvash requested it, and it seemed sane enough
[02:52] <bluesabre> (and is one of the easiest things I can do on a Tuesday night)
[02:52] <brainvvash> it's useful, indeed
[02:52] <bluesabre> cyphermox: thanks, have a good night
[02:52] <Unit193> Heh, well I'd take that over cleaning and caulking the bathroom, so want to trade? :P
[02:53] <bluesabre> noop
[02:53] <Unit193> cyphermox: And EST FTW!
[02:53] <cyphermox> Unit193: yay
[02:53]  * bluesabre high fives Unit193 and cyphermox
[03:04] <bluesabre> Unit193: re http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/02/25/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t01:53 any ideas off the top of your head?
[03:06] <Unit193> I punted to you. :P
[03:06] <Unit193> All I hear is that I didn't break it.
[03:06] <bluesabre> :)
[03:07]  * bluesabre begins the download
[03:16] <Unit193> Ah, looks like 3.19 will land after beta freeze is up.
[03:17] <bluesabre> oh cool
[03:21] <Unit193> bluesabre: Try an older xfwm, just for kicks, with ubiquity?
[03:22] <bluesabre> yeah, going to try that and a few other things
[03:26] <Unit193> Not xfce 11059 or something I'd presume?
[03:38] <gmbs> Hi again, folks. I'm Greg Blumenthal. I want to thank Elizabeth K. Joseph and everyone else at xubuntu.org for the opportunity to talk about Xubuntu in my work
[03:43] <gmbs> If anyone has any questions about how and why I install Xubuntu for small business desktop use in Mexico, I am happy to answer.
[07:13] <elfy> bluesabre: perhaps we should have been happy with black background to the try/install :)
[10:38] <ochosi> hey everyone
[10:38] <slickymasterWork> hey ochosi 
[10:41]  * ochosi is still on a train on his way home
[10:41] <ochosi> knome: therefore ^ not sure i'll make it in time for the meeting
[11:18] <bluesabre> elfy: indeed :D
[11:23] <ochosi> hey bl	
[11:23] <ochosi> bluesabre: ^
[11:23] <ochosi> :)
[11:23] <ochosi> stupid mobile internet screws things up with being slow
[11:23] <ochosi> in case you're not going to make the meeting tonight, i wanted to discuss 4.12 for trusty with you
[11:24] <bluesabre> ochosi: hey
[11:24] <bluesabre> whats up?
[11:24] <ochosi> i guess the general question is whether we try a huge SRU or go for the PPA version
[11:25] <bluesabre> did you see my tweet?
[11:25] <ochosi> sorry, i was away since sunday
[11:25] <ochosi> so i've only seen very few updates lately
[11:25] <bluesabre> https://twitter.com/bluesabredavis/status/570387123024433152
[11:25] <ochosi> did you do an @xubuntu tweet or are you on twitter too?
[11:26] <bluesabre> knome wanted my unofficial response as XTL
[11:26] <ochosi> k
[11:26] <bluesabre> and then retweeted as @xubuntu
[11:27] <bluesabre> but yeah, no need for a full SRU into trusty
[11:27] <ochosi> ok good
[11:27] <bluesabre> we update components that have major bugs, leave the others alone until major bugs might be found
[11:29] <ochosi> righty
[11:29] <bluesabre> oho, that was definitely a systemd boot message on the b1 iso
[11:30] <bluesabre> elfy: you around?
[11:30] <brainvvash> bluesabre, there are some panel wrapper crash reports
[11:31] <brainvvash> I told you about my systray crash, probably triggered by the task manager
[11:32] <brainvvash> not reproducible tough
[11:34] <ochosi> bluesabre: did i miss much else?
[11:35] <bluesabre> ochosi: elfy/cyphermox found an issue with the b1 iso (32bit only maybe?) where the/a window is drawn offscreen
[11:35] <bluesabre> or thats how I understand it
[11:35] <bluesabre> in ubiquity
[11:35] <ochosi> right
[11:36] <ochosi> that's not much fun
[11:36] <bluesabre> trying to reproduce now to see if I can find the cause
[11:36] <ochosi> i wonder how that could happen
[11:36] <ochosi> i thought ubiquity runs a couple of commands to ensure it's centered
[11:36] <bluesabre> wanted to test it last night, but the iso took forever to download
[11:36] <ochosi> i'll try to take a look on friday
[11:36] <bluesabre> b1 is thursday :P
[11:36] <ochosi> today i'm travelling and tomorrow i have a packed day
[11:37] <ochosi> yeah well, luckily it's only a beta ;)
[11:37] <bluesabre> heh
[11:37] <ochosi> i think with xfdesktop running you could try to open a terminal
[11:37] <bluesabre> oh
[11:37] <ochosi> in the ubiquity-dm session
[11:37] <bluesabre> another fun one
[11:37] <ochosi> so that could help with debugging
[11:38] <ochosi> that could also be a reason for this happening btgw
[11:38] <bluesabre> https://imgur.com/hxmrz2d
[11:38] <ochosi> because we didn't really resolve the black background issue, we "painted over it"
[11:38] <ochosi> wow, that looks super-shitty :)
[11:39] <bluesabre> no, its resolved... we paint the background black and then open xfdesktop, no different than the root pixmap and xfdesktop we do for a normal session
[11:39] <bluesabre> er, a tiny bit different
[11:39] <ochosi> i think thta's xfwm4 removing the window frame because it thinks the window is tiled
[11:39] <bluesabre> oh
[11:39] <bluesabre> (can we remove that please)
[11:40] <bluesabre> thats an annoying feature
[11:40] <bluesabre> or add a switch
[11:40] <ochosi> so that's clearly a bug
[11:40] <ochosi> in xfwm4
[11:42] <brainvvash> bluesabre, a new window should not be tiled automatically, is that a regression?
[11:42] <bluesabre> I'd prefer that window frame never be removed, especially if tiled
[11:43] <ochosi> i think there is no such option yet
[11:43] <ochosi> afai've noticed this sort of bug already with other windows in the session too btw
[11:44] <bluesabre> afa indeed
[11:44] <ochosi> bleh, stupid slow internet laaag
[11:45] <bluesabre> honestly, probably not the best idea for all changes to land in xfce 2-3 weeks before release
[11:45] <bluesabre> 2-3 years of development stability, final burst of features
[11:45] <bluesabre> (and bugs)
[12:08] <slickymasterWork> dkessel, can you please check this string -> https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/vivid/+pots/desktop-guide/de/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=einmal+in+2+Jahren
[12:08] <slickymasterWork> why aren't the <guilabel></guilabel> tags present in the translated string?
[12:09] <slickymasterWork> also I've just upload a de.po file to the branch with several corrections regarding translated Docbook tags
[12:10] <bluesabre> elfy, Unit193: it looks like the window is opening on the very right-most pixel
[12:11] <bluesabre> that also seems to be where xfwm thinks things should go
[12:11] <bluesabre> if you can open a terminal and drag it to the far left, it will tile itself back on that right-most pixel
[12:12] <ochosi> bluesabre: should be this commit in xfwm4 6f6604a338e24a1df45d0cb97c2c0ec5cd205b62
[12:12] <ochosi> not sure about the "optional" part though
[12:19] <bluesabre> elfy, Unit193: it seems like a regression, installing xfwm4 from utopic makes new windows appear on the right display
[12:20] <bluesabre> though the bug seems to be linked to tiling... if I drag a window to the left corner, it tiles to the right pixel even in older releases
[12:20] <bluesabre> ochosi: is there a way to disable tiling?
[12:22] <ochosi> yup
[12:22] <ochosi> i
[12:23] <ochosi> 'm looking up the key for you, one sec
[12:23] <bluesabre> k, going to hop in the shower in the meantime, bbiab
[12:24] <ochosi> it's /xfwm4/general/tile_on_move
[12:24] <ochosi> maybe we can disable that for ubiquity
[12:26] <ochosi> or in general, if that's the only way
[12:32] <dkessel> slickymasterWork: oh right - i fixed the one with the missing <guilabel> tags
[12:32] <dkessel> slickymasterWork: anything else you noticed about the translation?
[12:39] <bluesabre> ochosi: thanks
[12:40] <bluesabre> elfy, Unit193: won't have a chance to test this morning, but if you get a chance, maybe try the following command in a terminal (ctrl-alt-t or right-click desktop to get a terminal) before the installer finishes
[12:40] <bluesabre> xfconf-query -c xfwm4 -p /general/tile_on_move -s false
[12:42] <brainvvash> bluesabre, and this is a 32bit only issue?
[12:42] <bluesabre> brainvvash: not sure
[12:42] <brainvvash> sounds strange :)
[12:42] <bluesabre> the iso takes so long to download, only been able to test 32bit since I saw a mention of it
[12:43] <bluesabre> I'll test with a version of ubiquity from utopic later and other variations to figure out the exact issue
[13:04] <elfy> bluesabre: arch agnosti
[13:07] <elfy> that command returns nothing
[13:07] <elfy> but that's before the installer starts as it's invisble :)
[13:08] <bluesabre> yeah, the command returns nothing, just sets tiling off
[13:08] <bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
[13:08] <bluesabre> check the right-most pixel for a window border
[13:08] <bluesabre> things hide over there
[13:09] <elfy> alt+space+m moving them :)
[13:09] <elfy> yep - cya later 
[13:21] <elfy> bluesabre: ok - made no difference - after install finishes the install complete notification was off screen somewhere - BUT - grabbing it and moving it onto desktop - it says install is completel
[13:25] <ochosi> ok, so we mostly have a window managing problem there
[13:28] <elfy> ochosi: seems so - other than it being a bit pants - I'm not completely panicking :)
[13:29] <elfy> I want to do some double checking that it all works from live session as expected - if that's the case then I'd +1 releasing with a Big Known Issue if you 2 wanted to 
[13:30] <elfy> and assuming it's not fixed by tomorrow ofc
[14:06] <slickymasterWork> great dkessel, thanks for that
[14:08] <slickymasterWork> other than ^^, just a few occurrences of the closing tag </filename> being translated 
[14:10] <slickymasterWork> and I already upload a de.po file correcting those
[14:11] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, i guess that'd be ok
[14:17] <ochosi> not sure we'll be able to figure things out until tomorrow
[15:00] <slickymasterWork> GridCube, can you please normalize the 'Settings Manager' entity in the Spanish translations of the -docs. So far there's translated entries as "Administrador de configuración", "Configuración" and "Settings Manager"
[15:02] <knome> and please use the name used in the menu
[15:06] <GridCube> in the menu if you hover it says "Toda la configuración" but the title of the Settings Manager just says "Configuración"
[15:06] <slickymasterWork> yet another entry GridCube, "configuración" (this one is the same as the previous, but the initial C is not capitalized)
[15:06] <knome> GridCube, use the one in the menu
[15:07] <GridCube> thats what whiskers say, in the xfce menu it says "Administrador de configuración"
[15:07] <GridCube> as whiskers is default i guess i should use "Toda la configuración" then?
[15:07] <knome> hmm
[15:08] <knome> what are the literal translations for those?
[15:08] <slickymasterWork> at least you should choose one and make it default through all the docs GridCube 
[15:09] <knome> i actually believe the one from the regular menu is the one that comes from xfce
[15:09] <knome> the one in whisker is probably whisker-specific
[15:09] <slickymasterWork> I'm under the same impression knome 
[15:09] <knome> i'd use the one from xfce
[15:09] <GridCube> "all settings" (toda la configuracion), "settings" (configuración), "settings manager" (administrador de configuración)
[15:09] <GridCube> knome: makes sense
[15:10] <knome> use the one that is the "real" translation for the original string (settings manager)
[15:10] <slickymasterWork> GridCube, if you're going to work on it right now please tell me, because I'm working on the es.po and I'll stop until you've finished
[15:10] <GridCube> so what it says in the xfce menu
[15:11] <GridCube> slickymasterWork: even if i make a change, the translation team might take days to aprove myc hanges
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> aren't you also reviewer GridCube?
[15:11] <GridCube> nope
[15:11] <GridCube> was never accepted
[15:12] <slickymasterWork> ok, I'll continue then, and upload all the corrections to malformed and translated tags
[15:13] <GridCube> ok, i'll make the suggestions then
[15:13] <slickymasterWork> great, thanks GridCube ;)
[15:15] <slickymasterWork> as you're on it GridCube, there's one other proposed entry for 'Settings Manager' -> "Gestor de de configuración" :P
[15:16] <GridCube> yes
[15:16] <knome> don't confuse this any more :P
[15:16] <GridCube> thats not good
[15:16]  * slickymasterWork thinks that this just shows the richness of the Latin idioms 
[15:16] <GridCube> i saw it
[15:24] <GridCube> ok, done
[15:25] <GridCube> all 26 instances where "settings manager" was now says "administración de configuración" as from the xfce menu lists
[15:25] <GridCube> notice again that this is different from whiskers and from what the window title says
[15:27] <knome> even the english dialog says just "Settings"
[15:27] <GridCube> ok :)
[15:27] <knome> i don't use whiskermenu though
[15:27] <knome> "All Settings" there
[15:27] <knome> so ti's in line with english
[15:27] <GridCube> i've sent a mail to the translations team leader asking for review
[15:29] <slickymasterWork> one other thing I noticed GridCube, is that most of the times « » are used in spite of " " and that breaks the code
[15:29] <slickymasterWork> I'm already fixing those ^^^
[15:29] <GridCube> no idea how to get << >>
[15:30] <slickymasterWork> in Portuguese keyboards it's the key immediately to the left of the 'Backspace' key 
[15:31] <GridCube> ¡¿~
[15:31] <GridCube> thats what that key contains
[15:31] <knome> altgr+shift+8/9
[15:32] <GridCube> i think that the idea is not to use them anyway
[15:32] <knome> slickymasterWork, you can use &laquo; and &raquo; if you want to use them... :P
[15:32] <knome> i'm sure it's some sort of convention
[15:34] <slickymasterWork> but the script is escaping the occurrences of " " -> \" blá blá \"
[15:40] <knome> eh
[15:42] <slickymasterWork> like this knome: "<xref linkend=\"software-repositories-restricted\"/>
[15:42] <slickymasterWork> you can't use <xref linkend=«software-repositories-restricted»/>
[15:43] <knome> oh right...
[15:43] <knome> that's clearly wrong that «» there
[15:44] <knome> would be nice to know again who is doing that
[15:44] <knome> because they aren't helping at all with that stuff we have to fix after they did it
[15:45]  * slickymasterWork is reviewing the file in poeditor
[15:59] <slickymasterWork> GridCube, ping
[16:00] <GridCube> yes
[16:01] <slickymasterWork> can I ask you another favor? 'Network Manager' and 'Gestor de redes'
[16:01] <slickymasterWork> can you also normalize that?
[16:06] <GridCube> slickymasterWork: i cant find "network manager"
[16:06] <GridCube> oh, its networkmanager all thogheter
[16:06] <slickymasterWork> yes :)
[16:07] <GridCube> should it just stay "NetworkManager"?
[16:08] <GridCube> if you hover the applet it doesnt say anything, and the window from Edit says "Conexiones de red"
[16:09] <GridCube> but the app in alt-tab says "nm connection editor"
[16:13] <GridCube> i don't know what to do
[16:13] <slickymasterWork> I use Conexiones de red, GridCube 
[16:14] <slickymasterWork> S/I use/I would use
[16:14] <GridCube> alright
[16:24] <GridCube> done
[16:26] <slickymasterWork> thanks GridCube 
[16:26] <GridCube> de nada
[16:27] <slickymasterWork> ;)
[16:30] <knome> !team | meeting in 30min
[16:45] <slickymasterWork> desktop-guide-es.po reviewd for malformed and translated tags an uploaded to the branch
[16:56] <dkessel> i am also here to tune in to the meeting
[17:00] <knome> dkessel, oh but you're not allowed
[17:00] <dkessel> yeah, sure :p
[17:00] <knome> didn't you know that when the meeting is on wednesdays, people whose nick starts with d can't participate
[17:00] <knome> boo, you didn't take the bait :(
[17:00] <knome> of course you can participate...
[17:00] <dkessel> ;)
[17:00] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[17:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 25 17:00:59 2015 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:01] <knome> who's here for the meeting?
[17:01]  * GridCube is here as a listener today
[17:02] <elfy> be about make a cup of tea time - just got in
[17:02] <knome> GridCube, non-team members can talk just as well :P
[17:02] <GridCube> i know :P but i'll probably have nothing to say
[17:02] <GridCube> this is the first meeting i can join in years
[17:02] <knome> #topic Open action items
[17:02] <knome>     Unit193 to tie up with elfy for xubuntu-core upgrade testing needs 
[17:02] <knome> did that happen?
[17:03] <elfy> no 
[17:03] <knome> #action Unit193 to tie up with elfy for xubuntu-core upgrade testing needs 
[17:03] <meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to tie up with elfy for xubuntu-core upgrade testing needs
[17:03] <knome> rests seems done
[17:03] <knome> #topic Team updates
[17:03] <knome> #info The new website theme (with fixes) is live!!!
[17:04] <elfy> I have loads 
[17:04] <knome> just pour them in :)
[17:05] <elfy> right - I'm here now
[17:05] <elfy> though loads is probably 3 or 4 :p
[17:06] <knome> haha
[17:06] <elfy> #info Trusty testing - once we had a testable image - went well - 94 reported results for that 
[17:06] <knome> \o/
[17:07] <PaulW2U> knome: Colour scheme of website is good but not sure about the shade of green
[17:07] <elfy> #info First count for QA incentive will be done by Sunday for ochosi to approve
[17:07] <knome> PaulW2U, we're in the middle of a meeting, can you give the feedback after this, thanks
[17:07] <elfy> #info vivid beta testing is not going too well with the known issue, release team need to make a decision
[17:08] <knome> elfy, can you summarize where it happens?
[17:08] <elfy> #action xubuntu-release to discuss state of vivid beta and release position
[17:08] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-release to discuss state of vivid beta and release position
[17:08] <elfy> knome: yes - any of the install options appear to cause various issues
[17:09] <knome> ouch..
[17:09] <knome> xubuntu-specific only or general?
[17:09] <elfy> I need to check the live session install options - they *appear* ok 
[17:09] <elfy> xubuntu-specific it seems
[17:09] <knome> hmpf
[17:10] <knome> my opinion, not that i'm in the release team or the team lead, is that it would be important to get beta out for exploratory testing (people are interested in betas)
[17:10] <elfy> of course while that specific info is just one line - it's a big one :p
[17:10] <knome> if we can only make the system to install more or less cleanly..
[17:10] <slickymasterWork> ftr, ^^^ that's bug 1425047
[17:11] <elfy> slickymasterWork: it's not just that I'm afraid :)
[17:11] <slickymasterWork> great, here I was thinking it was just sinply that :P
[17:11] <elfy> kvm - don't even see the screen to install from :)
[17:11] <knome> apparently there could be a trivial fix to that
[17:11] <knome> but not landing before the beta
[17:12] <knome> elfy, or did you test that already?
[17:12] <elfy> not seen anything about fix
[17:12] <elfy> test what? 
[17:12] <knome> aha
[17:12] <knome> bluesabre sent you a line to turn off tiling
[17:12] <elfy> oh if you mean bluesabre's xfconf-query -c xfwm4 -p /general/tile_on_move -s false
[17:12] <knome> he also said something about running with utopic ubiquity to debug it
[17:12] <knome> yes
[17:12] <knome> that
[17:13] <elfy> my result of that is [13:21] <elfy> bluesabre: ok - made no difference
[17:13] <knome> right :(
[17:13] <knome> well, let's hope we can fix it ASAP
[17:13] <knome> anything else for the team updates?
[17:13] <elfy> but all is not lost - it IS installable 
[17:13] <knome> yep :)
[17:13] <elfy> just not from all options easily 
[17:14] <knome> yeah..
[17:14] <dkessel> maybe we should send a mail to the ML informing about known working installation options
[17:14] <elfy> hardware testing for all install options from livesession is not something that I can do 
[17:14] <elfy> dkessel: they'd be on the release note 
[17:14] <knome> elfy, what can't you?
[17:15] <elfy> all that I CAN do is manual 
[17:15] <knome> oh ok
[17:16] <knome> well i don't think that makes much difference if the problems are related to window positioning though
[17:16] <knome> but what do i know... :)
[17:16] <elfy> basically all of the dialogues are off screen 
[17:16] <knome> yep
[17:16] <knome> since it's likely that's an xfwm bug, it shouldn't stop one from installing 
[17:16] <elfy> you can grab them - make sure has focus then alt+space+m then you can select move and grab it 
[17:16] <knome> if you can get the windows to be visible, that is
[17:17] <knome> yep
[17:17] <elfy> yep - I just need time to work through all the options I can do - vm's and hardware 
[17:17] <knome> let's follow up on this when bluesabre gets back :)
[17:17] <knome> any other team updates?
[17:17] <knome> slickymasterWork?
[17:18] <slickymasterWork> ups sorry
[17:18] <slickymasterWork> no closed from my side
[17:18] <slickymasterWork> s/no/nothing
[17:18] <knome> #done pleia2 published a "Xubuntu at..." blog post
[17:18] <knome> ok, moving on
[17:18] <slickymasterWork> working on a bunch of things, still
[17:18] <knome> #topic Announcements
[17:18] <knome> #info Xfce 4.12 is to be released next weekend
[17:19] <knome> #info Team has got an ACK for a FFe for 4.12 uploads, will be uploaded once everything has settled
[17:19] <knome> any other announcements?
[17:21] <knome> #info Next freezes: UIFreeze March 12, DocStringFreeze March 19
[17:21] <elfy> not that I'm aware of 
[17:22] <knome> #topic Discussion
[17:22] <knome> i believe the core upgrade issue should be solved now
[17:22] <knome> #subtopic ISO target size
[17:22] <knome> anybody have comments on this?
[17:22] <elfy> yes
[17:22] <knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-February/010606.html
[17:23] <knome> go ahead :)
[17:23] <elfy> my position is (and isn't likely to change) that we shouldn't constrain ourselves by the 1Gb limit - however that doesn't equate to woohoo - we've got 2 Gb - fill that space up 
[17:24] <knome> yep
[17:24] <elfy> we should bear in mind people that might have bandwidth issues 
[17:24] <knome> this is what i thought when i wrote:
[17:24] <knome> My suggestion on the meeting was that if we go over 1GB, our new target
[17:24] <knome> should be "below or as close to 1GB as possible, but 2GB at maximum".
[17:24] <knome> i think we just need a team vote on this
[17:24] <elfy> yep
[17:24] <slickymasterWork> that's also my position, as I already said in the ML
[17:25] <knome> #action knome to follow up with ochosi on setting up a team vote - or allowing more time for discussion
[17:25] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to follow up with ochosi on setting up a team vote - or allowing more time for discussion
[17:25] <GridCube> as i said in the ML i think we should not limit to a size, but neither go adding stuff for the sake of it, just try to remain the smaller posible without feeling constrained 
[17:25] <elfy> GridCube: that I think is more or less what everyone is saying 
[17:25] <GridCube> mmhm
[17:25] <knome> the technical limitation is "required" in order to the trackers to be able to notice when we've gone over a specified limit
[17:26] <knome> but yeah, i don't think 2GB is really a problem, even if we decided to go ahead with the office stack change
[17:26] <knome> Unit193's figures for that were like 1.1GB...
[17:26] <Akusari> hello, sorry for my delay :-/
[17:26] <elfy> knome: yea
[17:26] <knome> #nick Unit193
[17:26] <knome> (needed that for the action item)
[17:27] <elfy> and on THAT note we need to try tie those other discussion into agenda
[17:27] <knome> but then again 1.2GB target makes no sense, there is no 1.2GB hardware :D
[17:27] <elfy> you can action me to do both of those
[17:27] <knome> elfy, the other things that are already on the agenda? :D
[17:28] <knome> i think it's next to useless to try to discuss them today since we are few-numbered
[17:28] <elfy> knome: yea - so limit should be 2 - that doesn't mean that [team] is going to +1 filling it up
[17:28] <knome> yep
[17:28] <elfy> knome: there is also the game issue
[17:28] <knome> right
[17:28] <knome> #action elfy to add the "game issue" into the meeting agenda
[17:28] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy to add the "game issue" into the meeting agenda
[17:28] <knome> happy?
[17:28] <knome> :)
[17:28] <elfy> I'd not say that :p
[17:28] <knome> #undo
[17:29] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
[17:29] <knome> #chair elfy
[17:29] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome
[17:29] <elfy> LOL
[17:29] <elfy> ACTION: elfy to add the "game issue" into the meeting agenda
[17:29] <elfy> I meant I'd not say I was happy :D
[17:29] <knome> :D
[17:29] <Akusari> lol
[17:29] <knome> #action elfy to add the "game issue" into the meeting agenda
[17:29] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy to add the "game issue" into the meeting agenda
[17:29] <knome> #subtopic Any other discussion
[17:29] <elfy> oh silly me - forgot the #
[17:30] <knome> anything else?
[17:30] <knome> too bad PaulW2U got scared and left...
[17:30] <elfy> nothing from me 
[17:31] <knome> slickymasterWork, want to bring up something?
[17:31] <slickymasterWork> nopes, nothing at the moment 
[17:31] <knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
[17:31] <elfy> ochosi for that I think 
[17:31] <knome> #info ochosi schedules the next meeting (XPL duty)
[17:32] <knome> yep
[17:32] <knome> #endmeeting
[17:32] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 25 17:32:04 2015 UTC.  
[17:32] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-02-25-17.00.moin.txt
[17:32] <knome> thanks everybody
[17:32] <slickymasterWork> but we still have to find a common schedule to finish the installer slideshow, knome, elfy 
[17:32] <knome> i'll set the minutes up in a minute
[17:32] <elfy> knome: thanks
[17:32] <knome> slickymasterWork, can do that now
[17:32] <slickymasterWork> yes
[17:32] <slickymasterWork> this weekend?
[17:32] <elfy> I'll send a mail to the list re hardware tests installing from livesession 
[17:32] <knome> sunday is not working for me
[17:32] <knome> unless it's $late
[17:33] <Akusari> while you guys sitting down in a team meeeting, i was working on the installer # bug 1425047 :-P
[17:33] <knome> well make that $very_late
[17:33] <slickymasterWork> late won't work for me, beacuse the little one
[17:33] <knome> mhm
[17:33] <knome> i can't promise anything for saturday either
[17:33] <slickymasterWork> saturday?
[17:33] <knome> no clear plans yet
[17:33] <elfy> Friday evening?
[17:33] <knome> wait
[17:33] <slickymasterWork> wfm
[17:34] <slickymasterWork> your evening means what time elfy?
[17:34] <slickymasterWork> after 21:: UTC?
[17:34] <slickymasterWork> * 21:00
[17:34] <elfy> till midnightish UTC 
[17:34] <slickymasterWork> wfm
[17:34] <Akusari> that's what i call late :-P
[17:34] <knome> considering we aren't on the move, works for me too, but not sure yet
[17:34] <knome> i would place my bets on monday
[17:35] <knome> even if that's not weekend..
[17:35] <elfy> and after first food if I'm awake that late - cos I'd need second food too :p
[17:35] <slickymasterWork> monday is good for me also
[17:35] <elfy> mmm - mon-wed night I can be about - just not so late 
[17:35] <slickymasterWork> lol, we'll bring extra food elfy 
[17:35] <knome> elfy, pick a time
[17:36] <elfy> knome: monday? 
[17:36] <knome> elfy, yep
[17:36] <elfy> 1900 or 2000 
[17:36] <knome> slickymasterWork, which one works for you?
[17:36] <elfy> depends how long we think it's going to go on
[17:36] <knome> i'd hope ~30-45mins
[17:36] <slickymasterWork> both, I'll postponed diner 
[17:37] <elfy> also knome and I can start looking at poll first I guess
[17:37] <knome> 19utc then?
[17:37] <knome> i mean,
[17:37] <slickymasterWork> you got yourselves a date then gentlemen 
[17:37] <knome> let's go through things that we need to work on together
[17:37] <knome> slickymasterWork, a 2-way?
[17:37] <knome> we can action the actual content writing for later/we can do that alone
[17:37] <slickymasterWork> not with you... you demon 
[17:38] <knome> :P
[17:39] <Akusari> and next time i'll ask you boys where i can do more help and support (expect iso-testing) :-) Probably you have some ideas for me :-)
[17:39] <knome> Akusari, next what time?
[17:40] <knome> slickymasterWork, elfy: so 19UTC monday?
[17:40] <slickymasterWork> there were already some work items attributed 
[17:40] <slickymasterWork> wfm
[17:40] <Akusari> after next meeting i thought
[17:41] <Akusari> i'd like to have some tasks :-)
[17:41] <Akusari> but i'm not sure what i can do
[17:42] <Akusari> i'll continue iso-testing anyway (for sure)
[17:42] <slickymasterWork> Akusari, do you master any other idiom besides english?
[17:43] <slickymasterWork> Akusari, do you master any other idiom besides english?
[17:43] <Akusari> german
[17:43] <slickymasterWork> here's something for you to help with .> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-January/010516.html
[17:44] <Akusari> why do you ask ?
[17:44] <elfy> knome: ack 
[17:44] <slickymasterWork> see my previous post Akusari 
[17:44] <slickymasterWork> here's something for you to help with .> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-January/010516.html
[17:44] <Akusari> sounds not bad
[17:44] <Akusari> i can do a german translation of course
[17:45] <slickymasterWork> if you feel you need any help with anything, please fell free to ping me
[17:45] <knome> addaed our sprint to the calendar
[17:45] <knome> and minutes are up
[17:45] <Akusari> ok :-)
[17:45] <slickymasterWork> lol knome, you're spamming my phone :P
[17:45] <knome> slickymasterWork, i'm wondering whether we should also set up translation guidelines
[17:45] <elfy> ok - mail to list re beta hardware from live session gone
[17:46] <knome> slickymasterWork, eg. don't translate tags, always use the UI transation name for application names (re: todays discussion)
[17:46] <slickymasterWork> translations wise
[17:46] <knome> slickymasterWork, that might save us a lot of this work you've done today..
[17:46] <slickymasterWork> agree knome, noe that it finally feels that some of the initial inertia has gone 
[17:46] <slickymasterWork> and been doing for the last five days 
[17:47] <knome> i mean that was always obvious to me, but people who are new to translations, maybe not
[17:47] <slickymasterWork> the desktop-guide-fi.po was an absolute mess
[17:47] <Akusari> wow
[17:47] <knome> slickymasterWork, ;)
[17:47] <knome> and i'm sure there are guides for this, but they are very long and hard to read
[17:47] <Akusari> ok, i need to go....cu later or tomorrow :-)
[17:48] <knome> slickymasterWork, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
[17:48] <slickymasterWork> no, something practical, based on what we've being catching as the major errors being sone
[17:48] <knome> maybe we could also just try to improve that page...
[17:48] <knome> or use that as a base at least
[17:48] <slickymasterWork> I thought you were referring to something that would be added to our Process page knome 
[17:49] <knome> there seems to be a lot of unnecessary stuff
[17:49]  * knome shrugs
[17:49] <knome> the processes page starts to expand quickly :P
[17:49] <knome> but maybe it can go there as well
[17:49] <slickymasterWork> I was think of juast a small section about it
[17:49] <knome> but if there's an existing page somebody else maintains...
[17:49] <knome>  In Ubuntu 11.04, the principal Ubuntu help documentation is found in the gnome-user-docs package. 
[17:50] <knome> seems like not maintained lately .P
[17:50] <slickymasterWork> yeah, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation is a bit a wall of text
[17:50] <knome> yes
[17:50] <knome> there's a lot of ubuntu-specific stuff
[17:50] <slickymasterWork> the way I see it is like this:
[17:50] <knome> and i'm sure, obsolete stuff too
[17:50] <slickymasterWork> we have a notion of what are the major errors people are making
[17:51] <slickymasterWork> in fact they're just three-four types
[17:51] <knome> they are the items 1-3 in the first list
[17:51] <slickymasterWork> so there's a error pattern 
[17:51] <knome> plus i'd add that it's important to translate application names literally as they appear in the UI
[17:52] <slickymasterWork> exactly
[17:52] <knome> because when we tell somebody to follow a path, they shouldn't need to do guesswork while following
[17:52] <knome> do you have 10 minutes now?
[17:53] <slickymasterWork> if the phone doesn't ring
[17:53] <slickymasterWork> yes
[17:53] <knome> haha
[17:53] <slickymasterWork> we can do it now
[17:53] <knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-translation-guidelines
[18:03] <slickymasterWork> knome: did you saw my question?
[18:03] <knome> yes, see the chat
[18:03] <slickymasterWork> lol, forgot the pad chat
[18:04] <ochosi> hey dolks
[18:05] <ochosi> erm, folks too
[18:05] <ochosi> sorry i didn't make it for the meeting
[18:05] <ochosi> i'll quickly read the backlog and all
[18:07] <ochosi> unfortunately i still have some other work to finish tonight :/
[18:10] <elfy> ochosi: such is life :)
[18:10] <elfy> most important thing as far as I'm concerned is read my mail to dev list and do something if you can :)
[18:10] <elfy> if you can't you can't :)
[18:13] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, i guess we have to try and get that issue fixed..
[18:13] <ochosi> could you quickly describe it to me so i know how/where to look?
[18:13] <ochosi> or is it so obvious that i can't miss it?
[18:14] <elfy> ochosi: boot image - once at the try/install dialogue - choose install (that's what the tests all call for) then you should either get blank desktop
[18:14] <elfy> or you can install, then it goes blank apparently having died
[18:15] <elfy> what is happening is that the dialogues are 'offscreen' so you can focus and drag them so you can seem them
[18:15] <elfy> what I am trying to test as completely as possible is that everything works from livesession install icon
[18:15] <elfy> if so - I'd ack release tomorrow - but we need to make the issue as plain as day on r'notes
[18:17] <elfy> I'll try and get a summary onto a pad tonight
[18:18] <ochosi> indeed
[18:19] <ochosi> i wonder whether the screen size is miscalculated somehow
[18:19] <elfy> basically atm all we need is some people to hardware test as many options as possible 
[18:19] <ochosi> i guess the problem you mention happens both with vm and hardware?
[18:19] <elfy> ochosi: no idea I'm afraid - I did try bluesabre thing - no go 
[18:19] <elfy> yep - had the same on hardware here
[18:20] <ochosi> k
[18:20] <elfy> if it WAS just vm's - I would *shrug* 
[18:20] <ochosi> i'll do a quick vm trial in a bit then
[18:20] <elfy> ochosi: okey doke 
[18:20] <ochosi> any preference whether i do that in 32 or 64bit?
[18:21] <ochosi> or is it all the same atm
[18:21] <elfy> please make sure if you report that you do comment as I asked in the mail 
[18:21] <elfy> it makes no difference 
[18:21] <ochosi> k
[18:21] <ochosi> just started the zsync
[18:22] <elfy> thanks ochosi :)
[18:24] <slickymasterWork> knome, I assume you're already adding the pad content to the Processes page, right?
[18:24] <slickymasterWork> or do you want me to do it?
[18:24] <knome> not yet adding
[18:24] <knome> i'm wondering whether we should drop it there, or do something else
[18:25] <knome> we've discussed about the contributor documentation for a while..
[18:25] <slickymasterWork> there, where? In the Pad?
[18:25] <knome> this would be the first item that clearly would be suitable for that
[18:25] <slickymasterWork> now you lost me knome
[18:26] <slickymasterWork> og, for membership, you meean?
[18:26] <slickymasterWork> - e
[18:26] <knome> you remember the discussions about potentially writing some documentation for new contributors?
[18:26] <slickymasterWork> yes
[18:26] <knome> well this is it as much as anything is
[18:26] <knome> so maybe we shouldn't bury this under the processes stuff
[18:26] <slickymasterWork> well it's a side of it, anyway
[18:27] <knome> the package translations is something else that could go there
[18:27] <slickymasterWork> because if I remember it correctly, we also talked about writiing something on how to write documentation
[18:28] <knome> i think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Maintenance is the poster child of non-new-contributor stuff
[18:28] <knome> this is clearly something that is targeted to people who know $things already
[18:28] <knome> but.. i guess the line is thing
[18:28] <knome> *thin
[18:29] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Development  this is the page i think this should go to
[18:29] <slickymasterWork> hmmm, that page is to buried it further than the Process one
[18:29] <knome> but then again i'm not sure if it's a good fit there currently
[18:29] <slickymasterWork> I was talking about the Maintenance one 
[18:30] <knome> well anything under processes is more or less buried now
[18:30] <knome> since i cleaned the starting page
[18:30] <knome> which had became a wall of text
[18:30] <knome> now it isn't and the stuff is organized by the target people
[18:30] <knome> and/or usage needs
[18:31] <knome> i would consider the current processes page more of a cheatsheet
[18:31] <knome> the new guidelines we wrote are much more of a documentation type thing
[18:31] <slickymasterWork> as we stand now, the only logical candidate I see is indeed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Development
[18:32] <knome> some of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/ReleaseCycle is that too, but that's because it used to be in the strategy document
[18:32] <knome> yes, but don't you agree that it's not really a good fit there?
[18:32] <slickymasterWork> so, it's either https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Development or create a new one just focused in Documentation 
[18:32] <knome> i guess the difference i'm trying to communicate is:
[18:33] <slickymasterWork> yes, I agree 
[18:33] <knome> the current stuff under development is specific by the xubuntu team
[18:33] <knome> *specifiED
[18:33] <slickymasterWork> right
[18:33] <knome> the new guidelines are specified by XML, eg. we *must* do this
[18:33] <knome> there's no way we can control how xml tags are interpreted
[18:34] <knome> the conventions... well, those are more xubuntu-specific, but then again they are very closely tied with the validity requirements in a social level
[18:35] <slickymasterWork> hmmm... aren't you starting to overthinking it knome?
[18:35] <knome> no, i'm just making sure that future things we do have a clear place to go to
[18:35] <knome> eg. if we want it all to be buried in a wiki that will eventually become a monster to maintain
[18:35] <knome> or do something else
[18:36] <knome> well think about this:
[18:36] <knome> what if we write a section about writing and working with the documentation itself?
[18:36] <knome> that surely isn't a process description as is
[18:37] <knome> we haven't specified that it needs to be like this, the technical side requires it to be like it
[18:37] <knome> another analogy:
[18:38] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Maintenance  currently describes the maintaining tasks we need to take for website and more
[18:38] <slickymasterWork> yeah, but we can incorporate that in a "How to potentially gain membership through -docs" and thus linked for example from the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[18:38] <knome> the new guide we are writing is as if we wrote instructions on how to use wordpress to actually do that maintaining
[18:38] <slickymasterWork> but our intention is not that
[18:39] <knome> no, we definitely don't want to to do that for the website stuff
[18:39] <knome> but for the documentation stuff it might be required since people would otherwise need to do a lot of research
[18:39] <slickymasterWork> we could use your idea about writing and working with the documentation itself and fit it in the present scope of the team wiki
[18:40] <slickymasterWork> killing two rabbits 
[18:40] <knome> i know this is going overboard, but i really have to point this out too
[18:40] <knome> http://xubuntu.org/contribute/translating/
[18:40] <knome> what's the point of this page
[18:41] <knome> and the other similar pages, where do we draw the line
[18:41] <slickymasterWork> I see it as a complement
[18:41] <knome> i think the website is nice and concise atm
[18:42] <slickymasterWork> the website is the first entrance for most users
[18:42] <knome> it also describes the processes page function well:
[18:42] <slickymasterWork> contributing wise
[18:42] <knome> For the full list of translations that are important to Xubuntu, please refer to the Processes page on the Ubuntu wiki.
[18:42] <knome> and tbh, "Processes" is a bad name
[18:42] <slickymasterWork> that's nor present there
[18:43] <slickymasterWork> workflow?
[18:43] <knome> yeah, something like that
[18:43] <slickymasterWork> I like it better
[18:43] <ochosi> elfy: so at least xrandr is reporting the screen size correctly...
[18:43] <knome> tell pleia2 you're going to rename pages and she'll murmur at you
[18:43] <slickymasterWork> it's more explanatory
[18:43] <slickymasterWork> that's your job :P
[18:44] <knome> haha
[18:44] <slickymasterWork> tell pleia2 those nasty things
[18:44] <ochosi> elfy: and yeah, *all* new windows are created offscreen
[18:44] <knome> slickymasterWork, nooo, but she'll make me do redirects :(
[18:44] <slickymasterWork> lol
[18:45] <slickymasterWork> but seriously, I like your idea about writing and working with the documentation itself
[18:45] <knome> but that's another discussion :D
[18:45] <knome> and there are a lot more things we could document that would make new contributors more ease with the tools...
[18:45] <slickymasterWork> we just would have to figure/decide how/where to incorporate it in the present layout of the wiki
[18:46] <knome> ...or does it have to be in the wiki?
[18:46] <slickymasterWork> I think it would have to
[18:46] <knome> my wacky idea was to duplicate the base of the xubuntu documentation and make it a docbook thing.
[18:46] <knome> and put it under docs.xubuntu.org/developers for example
[18:46] <slickymasterWork> and that's your fault, you always stressed the paperwork aspect of it
[18:47] <knome> but of course, that's a different thing to maintain than the wiki
[18:47] <knome> but it would allow us to present it in a better-looking format
[18:47] <slickymasterWork> are we the ones who maintain docs.xubuntu.org/?
[18:47] <knome> yes
[18:47] <knome> or, pleia2 does
[18:47] <knome> (lots of pings for her today)
[18:48]  * slickymasterWork hides from pleia2 sight
[18:48] <knome> so we could update it whenever we wrote new chapters to it
[18:48] <slickymasterWork> agree
[18:48] <knome> but i'm sure there are people who are against putting it to docbook
[18:48] <slickymasterWork> that just might turn out to be the sanest solution
[18:48] <knome> because the wiki is more easily editable by everyone and blah blah ;)
[18:49] <knome> the other option is to create another subsection for the wiki
[18:49] <knome> Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation
[18:49] <ochosi> ali1234: actually it's a xubuntu issue, it's sorta release critical for b1, so if you have any idea how to find out why any new window is created offscreen in ubiquity-dm (only with xfwm4)...
[18:49] <knome> and start gathering that kind of stuff there
[18:49] <slickymasterWork> yeah, but anyway there's only a bunch of us who deal with docbook markup so they'll going to say that it's our job
[18:50] <ochosi> ali1234: and i presume that it's a recent regression with 4.11.3 as we haven't seen this before and i don't think ubiquity's window placement code has changed at all
[18:50] <knome> writing developer documentation is something you can't do anyway if you're a newbie, so in that way being in docbook doesn't make it much more exclusive
[18:50] <slickymasterWork> the Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation idea was already thrown, but I was under the impression that it would serve another propose 
[18:50] <knome> it would be the same, just in the wiki
[18:50] <slickymasterWork> exactly what I was thinking ^^
[18:51] <knome> i'll have to think about it
[18:51] <knome> tbh, i'd probably go for the wiki for starters 
[18:51] <knome> and i'd probably also move the important packages there too
[18:51] <knome> because it's not specifically a workflow/process thing either 
[18:52] <slickymasterWork> well, it isn't, but it also is at the same time
[18:52] <knome> i've also long thought that the web presence page is in the wrong place
[18:52] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/WebPresence
[18:52] <knome> this
[18:52] <knome> it should be under "Contact"
[18:52] <slickymasterWork> lol, was going to pop the question
[18:52] <knome> which is currently a redirect to "Leaders"
[18:52] <knome> but we should rename that to Contact
[18:52] <knome> and fix that stuff
[18:52] <knome> but meeeeh
[18:53] <slickymasterWork> that's a all different issue
[18:53] <knome> reorganizing the wiki makes me cry
[18:53] <slickymasterWork> poor knome 
[18:53] <knome> it's so slow
[18:53] <ochosi> elfy: btw, i have one fairly simple workaround for the window being offscreen: hit alt+f7 (shortcut for window-moving) and use the left-arrow button on your keyboard to move the window back onscreen
[18:53] <knome> compared to for example reorganizing docbook...
[18:53] <ochosi> elfy: i know it's not pretty though
[18:54] <knome> ochosi, think he knows about that already, alt+space+m he told
[18:54] <ochosi> ah ok
[18:54] <knome> which is probably the same, or sameish
[18:54] <knome> oh, that's the context menu
[18:54] <knome> but yeah, pretty much the same process
[18:55] <ochosi> yup
[18:55] <knome> slickymasterWork, anything else on the pad?
[18:56] <knome> i got to go AFK soon
[18:56] <knome> but i'll be back relatively soon, like 1h max
[18:56] <knome> actually, now
[18:56] <slickymasterWork> just added a small correction
[18:56] <knome> bbiab
[18:56] <knome> hope you're still around when i'm back :)
[18:56] <slickymasterWork> but I'm done with it now
[18:56] <knome> i'll fix the wiki then...
[18:56] <slickymasterWork> I'll be home and around
[18:56] <knome> great
[18:56] <slickymasterWork> after diner
[18:56] <knome> see you then
[18:57] <knome> :)
[18:57] <slickymasterWork> oki doke
[18:57] <knome> -->
[19:02] <slickymasterWork> bbl ->
[19:23] <elfy> ochosi: that's in hardware yes?
[19:23] <ochosi> no, in a vbox i just created
[19:24] <elfy> mmm not working  here
[19:26] <ochosi> crap
[19:26] <ochosi> we don't set a shortcut for that by default
[19:26] <ochosi> not sure why tbh+
[19:27] <elfy> ok
[19:27] <ochosi> it's weird anyway, the ubiquity standalone session is a bit useless
[19:28] <ochosi> i mean basically you can start *everything* within that session
[19:28] <ochosi> just right-click the desktop and it's all there...
[19:28] <elfy> yea
[19:29] <elfy> really - the bare minimum I guess
[19:32] <ochosi> also, again uneven circles :/
[19:32] <ochosi> ugly progress-dots... http://i.imgur.com/eXCgpZa.png
[19:33] <knome> ochosi, that's the smallest of the problems :P
[19:33] <knome> ochosi, i mean even the shot you pasted looks okay
[19:33] <ochosi> yeah, even pixel-size wise
[19:34] <ochosi> also, i was mostly messing with elfy (obviously)
[19:34] <knome> hah..
[19:34] <elfy> :)
[19:34] <knome> came just to pop in and out
[19:34] <knome> -<
[19:36] <elfy> http://pad.ubuntu.com/VividBeta1
[19:36] <elfy> draft release notes 
[19:37] <ochosi> btw, i think the workaround to move the window back on screen is good enough to publish the beta either way
[19:39] <elfy> ochosi: yep - I'm happy to publish as long as people have the info
[19:40] <elfy> hopefully by the next beta we'll have no major issues and can concentrate on bigging up xfce4.12 lol 
[19:44] <ochosi> bluesabre: ok, that other issue you mentioned with popup-windows not showing a frame can be worked around by deactivating "hide frame of windows when maximized" aka /xfwm4/general/borderless_maximize
[20:14] <ochosi> bluesabre: with "that other issue" i meant this of: https://i.imgur.com/hxmrz2d.png
[20:17] <knome> slickymaster, i'm back
[20:20] <ochosi> elfy: where do we track that ubiquity known issue?
[20:20] <elfy> Bug 1425047
[20:20] <ochosi> right, but that is sort of a different thing
[20:21] <ochosi> at least the description is misleading if it's supposed to be the same thing
[20:21] <elfy> that's the only tracking we've got currently 
[20:21] <elfy> other than bits of writing on the pad and in my head
[20:21] <ochosi> in that report it seems about more than just the window being offscreen, no?
[20:21] <ochosi> k
[20:21] <elfy> ochosi: yes - but when the bug was reported - we weren't aware of the offscreen thing 
[20:22] <elfy> tbf - when the bug was reported I was driving around in circles :p
[20:23] <ochosi> understandable
[20:23] <elfy> no - I was actually doing that :D
[20:26] <ochosi> ok, finally a pointer...
[20:26] <ochosi> the _NET_WORKAREA window-manager hint is wrong
[20:26] <elfy> \o/
[20:28] <ochosi> humm, who's in charge of ubiquity again atm?
[20:28] <elfy> no idea tbh
[20:28] <elfy> ochosi: but the place to ask would be in -release 
[20:28] <ochosi> did you talk to anybody about the issues we're having yet?
[20:28] <elfy> yea - infinity and also cyphermox 
[20:29] <elfy> who's in here 
[20:29] <ochosi> k
[20:29]  * ochosi waves at cyphermox 
[20:29] <elfy> ochosi: does that hint only affect the install part then? or? 
[20:30] <ochosi> the hint states that the workarea starts at 1024px on the x coordinate instead of 0
[20:30] <ochosi> so all windows are off by 1024px
[20:30] <elfy> finished fiddling with the draft on the pad - special note at top for ochosi 
[20:30] <ochosi> (to the right)
[20:30] <elfy> ochosi: well that would explain that then 
[20:30] <ochosi> the window-manager should correctly set that hint
[20:30] <ochosi> now i know that it's not doing that
[20:30] <elfy> but does it say something different for inside the livesession install ? 
[20:30] <ochosi> just not why :)
[20:31] <elfy> well - I could answer you - but then you'd know I'm not me :p
[20:31] <ochosi> i'm going to the live session now to see whether that looks ok
[20:32] <knome> ochosi, fwiw, moved (and redirected) the leaders page to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Contact
[20:32] <elfy> ochosi: well it certainly looks ok - and everything works as expected 
[20:34] <ochosi> yeah
[20:34] <ochosi> the values there are correct
[20:39] <ochosi> elfy: am i correct that the final "your installation window is complete" isn't showing because it's offscreen?
[20:40] <ochosi> i didn't go that far with testing, but i wanna write down my findings in a bugreport
[20:40] <elfy> yep - it is there 
[20:40] <elfy> I've successfully moved that to visible 
[20:45] <ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1425690
[20:47] <ochosi> bluesabre: i tried to summarize my findings in this bugreport: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1425690
[20:47] <ochosi> (sorry for double-posting)
[20:50] <ochosi> also ali1234 ^ in case you wanna help out with that (since you know more about wms than most or all of us here)
[20:50] <elfy> ochosi: thanks :)
[20:53] <ochosi> np, i think this is as far as i can go tonight
[20:53] <elfy> yep - fair to say we're unlikely to get a fix before tomorrow afternoon?
[20:54] <ochosi> bluesabre: also, i think by not actively painting the desktop black we'd be able to see the wallpaper as set by xfwm4 (the "xprop -root" output i added to that bugreport i linked to above clearly indicates that that root pixmap is set). maybe i forgot something or why we paint it black in the first place...
[20:54] <ochosi> elfy: i guess, but i'd rather wait for bluesabre's feedback on that
[20:54] <elfy> ok - well I'll see that in the morning I suspect then 
[20:55] <ochosi> yup
[20:55] <elfy> mark the slickymaster bug dupe of the new one? 
[20:56] <elfy> which it is - we just only had half a story 
[20:57] <ochosi> are you sure?
[20:57] <ochosi> i thought there was another issue there
[20:58] <elfy> possibly - but only because people start adding stuff 
[20:58] <ochosi> k, lemme re-read it then
[20:59] <elfy> the hfs business I read in a good install as well 
[20:59] <ochosi> oh ok :)
[21:00] <ochosi> then let's mark that as a duplicate of mine
[21:00] <elfy> might be a bug - but I think it's a red herring in slickymaster's bug - which when he originally pinged me was about the failing install
[21:00] <elfy> which WAS about the offscreen the install has finished - restart or not message
[21:01] <elfy> because if you just reboot after it would normally have been done (in time) the install is fine 
[21:01] <elfy> and cyphermox is talking about the offscreen windows in that bug - he's #11
[21:02] <ochosi> yup
[21:02] <ochosi> realized that
[21:02] <ochosi> i marked it as a dupe now
[21:02] <elfy> hah - double marking to make sure then :p
[21:03] <ochosi> anyway, i need a break, i'll be back in a bit
[21:03] <ochosi> feel free to adjust the link in the pad though, if you can
[21:03] <elfy> yea - thanks - cya tomorrow I suspect 
[21:03] <ochosi> if not, i'll do it when i come back
[21:03] <Unit193> elfy: Right, so upgrade testing.  1. Install utopic from core, make sure xubuntu-desktop isn't installed, upgrade.  2. Install utopic from core, make sure both xubuntu-core and xubuntu-desktop aren't installed, upgrade.  3. There might be a 3rd, maybe one that removes a keyDep, but I don't see why as that's out of the context of this.  Case #1 should upgrade without installing a meta.  Case #2 
[21:03] <ochosi> sure, to the worst ttyl
[21:03] <Unit193> should install xubuntu-desktop.
[21:03] <knome> Unit193, write a testcase ;]
[21:03] <Unit193> knome: Just did. :----D
[21:04] <knome> Unit193, no, with the preferred testcase format you silly. :)
[21:04] <Unit193> Not even sure what that is. :P
[21:05] <knome> Unit193, i will have no problems digging that up for you!
[21:05] <knome> Unit193, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases/ManualStyleGuide
[21:05] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/TestCaseFormat#contribute
[21:05] <Unit193> Maybe I should stop fixing things...
[21:06] <knome> it's basic HTML
[21:06] <knome> basically put it in a <dl>
[21:06] <knome> actions in <dt>, expected results in <dd>
[21:06] <knome> easy?
[21:15] <ali1234> ochosi: the _NET_WORKAREA indicates something made a strut that completely covers the screen
[21:16] <ochosi> ali1234: yeah, that's what i thought
[21:16] <ochosi> but the ubiquity panel seems fine
[21:16] <ochosi> i haven't checked ubiquity's own window yet though
[21:18] <ali1234> is this reproducable in virtualbox?
[21:18] <ochosi> yeah
[21:19] <ochosi> one sec, i'll pastebin the xprop for the panel
[21:19] <ochosi> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10415147/
[21:19] <ali1234> it isn't necessarily the panel, any window can set struts
[21:19] <Unit193> knome: http://paste.openstack.org/show/00D8WQZNhmX52XLQWCxx I don't know, something like that.
[21:19] <ochosi> ali1234: i know, but there's only the desktop (doesn't set struts) and the ubiquity main installer window (doesnt set struts)
[21:19] <ochosi> so the panel is the only thing left
[21:20] <elfy> Unit193: more or less - but indented and </dt> at ends
[21:20] <elfy> etc
[21:20] <knome> Unit193, noo
[21:20] <knome> but thanks for the basework
[21:20] <knome> i'll fix that...
[21:20] <elfy> or even - look at an existing one ... 
[21:20] <ali1234> ochosi: okay it's the panel
[21:21] <ochosi> i wonder how this is not a problem with other WMs though
[21:21] <ochosi> the struts of the panel do look wrong indeed, they start with 1024
[21:21] <ali1234> it is a problem with other wms...
[21:21] <ochosi> yeah, but from what elfy indicated we're the only ones seeing the issue
[21:22] <ochosi> so the others seem to ignore the struts or whatnot
[21:22] <ali1234> what panel is it?
[21:22] <ochosi> ubiquity's builtin panel
[21:22] <ali1234> i wouldn't be surprised if xfwm is the only wm that handles struts correctly
[21:22] <knome> elfy, Unit193: http://paste.openstack.org/show/EHLS3jEd301wSHoUkizm/
[21:22] <ochosi> i can link you to the code/source, one sec
[21:22] <elfy> ochosi: I've not seen it in the 2 I looked at, but I am just running studio 
[21:22] <ochosi> elfy: studio is also using xfwm, so you should see it there too
[21:23] <elfy> yep - just going to confirm so they know 
[21:23] <ali1234> there were some changes in xfwm relating struts recently
[21:23] <ali1234> my patch actually
[21:23] <ali1234> however, it should only make it ignore struts
[21:23] <ali1234> not unignore ones it previously ignored
[21:23] <ali1234> and it shouldn't affect what the panel sets either
[21:23] <ochosi> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/view/head:/src/panel/panel.c
[21:24] <ali1234> yeah okay this is just plain wrong
[21:24] <ochosi> so somewhere in set_strut there is a buuuug :)
[21:25] <ali1234> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/view/head:/src/panel/panel.c#L249
[21:25] <ali1234> set_strut just does what the code tells it
[21:25] <ali1234> the code tells it to make a strut convering the whole screen, so it does
[21:25] <ochosi> haha
[21:25] <Unit193> So dd is <p> not <h1>.
[21:25] <ochosi> widt
[21:25] <ali1234> set_strut(GTK_WINDOW(win), width, 0, allocation.height, allocation.height, 0, width);
[21:25] <ochosi> yeah
[21:25] <ali1234> width = gdk_screen_width();
[21:25] <ochosi> the first width should be 0
[21:26] <ochosi> lol, that is an obvious one that even *i* see and understand
[21:26] <ali1234> they should probably all be zero
[21:26] <ali1234> the panel is always the full width and always at the top?
[21:27] <knome> Unit193, semantically, <dl> = definition list, <dt> = definition title, <dd> = definition definition
[21:27] <ochosi> ali1234: yes
[21:27] <ali1234> flexiondotorg: have you noticed any funny stuff with struts in ubiquity?
[21:27] <Unit193> I think I'd rather mess with C.
[21:27] <ochosi> ali1234: it's totally hardcoded and stuff, so no options
[21:28] <flexiondotorg> ali1234, No. Can you give me an an idea of what I should look for?
[21:28] <knome> elfy, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/HardwareProfile
[21:28] <ochosi> i'm not even sure that panel is shown in mate's installer, we had to opt in to get it
[21:28] <knome> elfy, huhu... :)
[21:28] <ali1234> flexiondotorg: ubiquity panel defines a strut covering the entire screen, and properly coded WMs then push all new windows *off* the screen because there is no workarea
[21:28] <elfy> knome: don't remember that one :)
[21:28] <flexiondotorg> ochosi, If you mean the ubiquity-dm panel then I use that.
[21:29] <knome> elfy, well it's been hiding...
[21:29] <elfy> can you see how old they are :p
[21:29] <knome> yes, 2012
[21:29] <knome> says at the page bottom
[21:29] <ali1234> flexiondotorg: yeah i thought you did, cos you mentioned making indicators work in it, hence me asking
[21:29] <ochosi> flexiondotorg: ah ok
[21:29] <knome> elfy, pop in to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu to see the new header
[21:29] <knome> ^ others too
[21:29] <flexiondotorg> ali1234, Never had an issue with it. Checked out OK on i386 and amd64 earlier.
[21:29] <ochosi> weird though, i would presume that metacity handles struts correctly
[21:29] <flexiondotorg> ali1234, Just doing PowerPC tests now.
[21:30] <flexiondotorg> ochosi, Well possibly but I use Marco.
[21:30] <ochosi> ali1234: i presume this would be enough? set_strut(GTK_WINDOW(win), 0, 0, allocation.height, allocation.height, 0, width);
[21:30] <knome> ochosi, agree with this here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation
[21:30] <ali1234> i'm zsync'ing xubuntu daily
[21:30] <ali1234> ochosi: you don't even need that last width
[21:30] <knome> ochosi, mostly on the outline where different stuff should be at
[21:31] <ochosi> ali1234: ah yeah, overlooked that. i guess we should propose a branch asap so that it gets merged tomorrow and then we get a working b1
[21:31] <ali1234> ochosi: yeah, just reading the specs. as usual, they are confusing
[21:31] <ali1234> actually
[21:31] <ochosi> :)
[21:31] <ochosi> you mean the advanced wm hints spec?
[21:31] <ali1234> http://standards.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/1.3/ar01s05.html#NETWMSTRUT
[21:32] <ochosi> yeah, that one is a bit hard to digest...
[21:32] <ochosi> read it before as well
[21:32] <ali1234> right i get it
[21:32] <ali1234> first 4 numbers are the width of the border on that edge of the screen
[21:32] <ali1234> so those should be 0, 0, allocation.height, 0
[21:33] <ali1234> the next 4 are the start and stop of the struts in the other direction
[21:33] <ali1234> so those should be d/c, d/c, d/c, d/c, 0, width, d/c, d/c
[21:33] <ali1234> d/c = don't care
[21:33] <ochosi> wat, for realz?
[21:34] <ali1234> translating that for the set_strut call you get...
[21:34] <ali1234> (0, 0, 0, allocation.height, 0, width)
[21:36] <ochosi> right, care to propose the branch since i'm still trying to bend my head around that description on fd.org?
[21:36] <ali1234> i would like to talk to whoever wrote this first
[21:36] <ali1234> can you bzr blame it for me?
[21:37] <ochosi> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/annotate/head:/src/panel/panel.c ?
[21:38] <ochosi> evan dandrea i guess
[21:38] <ali1234> "add an installer session panel" looks like the one
[21:38] <ali1234> that was 5 years ago though
[21:38] <ochosi> yeah
[21:39] <ochosi> ev
[21:39] <ochosi> should be the nick ^
[21:39] <ochosi> found in #u-devel
[21:39] <ochosi> why would you wanna talk about this issue with the author first?
[21:39] <ochosi> i guess he doesn't even remember writing it since it's been 5yrs
[21:39] <ali1234> there might be a good reason why it does what it does
[21:40] <ali1234> i doubt it but you never know
[21:40] <ochosi> i guess then propose the branch and ask him for review
[21:40] <ochosi> you can specifically request him
[21:40] <ali1234> good idea
[21:40] <ochosi> then he gets notified and if there's a branch with the change and a comment from you, we can follow up by pinging the hell out of him tomorrow :D
[21:41] <ali1234> i wonder why this was never a problem before
[21:42] <ochosi> yeah, no clue
[21:42] <ochosi> it seems like an obvious problem
[21:44] <ali1234> hmm wait a minute
[21:44] <ali1234> this actually should be okay
[21:44] <knome> slickymaster, too late, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation/TranslationGuidelines
[21:44] <ali1234> if left.end is allocation.height then it only covers the whole width
[21:44] <ali1234> at the top of the screen
[21:45] <ochosi> so what, xfwm4 misinterprets it?
[21:45] <ali1234> could be
[21:46] <ali1234> like how it misinterprets struts on multimonitor, thinking they cover the other monitors
[21:46] <cyphermox> I don't think ev will be of much help, he hasn't touched ubiquity in forever
[21:46] <ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?id=b97b14868e27e48d4d475ac0497726f16de9a4e1
[21:46] <ali1234> what is this
[21:48] <ali1234> it's either that or this causing it http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?id=3f12ac8f92096ce562221622aa5ad2f45ae37006
[21:49] <ochosi> "awesome"
[21:49] <ochosi> cyphermox: thanks for reading in!
[21:49] <ali1234> the ubiquity code is actually wrong tho
[21:49] <elfy> evening cyphermox :)
[21:50] <ali1234> there's no need to set two struts on the same area like that, the strut can be handled perfectly by the not-partial stuff
[21:50] <knome> ochosi, are you reading what i'm pinging you with at all? ;)
[21:50] <knome> elfy, was there something for the QA team we wanted xubuntu-specific instructions for? there's a wikipage for that now...
[21:51] <elfy> I intend to do us xubuntu specific instructions 
[21:51] <knome> put them under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation ...
[21:53] <cyphermox> ali1234: i suspect there must have been a good reason to have two; it will need some testing with the other wms.
[21:57] <ochosi> i presume one is set as a fallback
[21:57] <ochosi> for those that don't handle the _PARTIAL ones
[21:57] <ali1234> so the problem here is that xfwm doesn't understand partial struts at all
[21:57] <ali1234> ochosi: the thing is, it's completely unneccessary to use a partial strut here
[21:58] <ali1234> the strut is the whole width and whatever height it is
[21:58] <ali1234> that bit works fine
[21:58] <ali1234> it's the partial one that is causing the problem
[22:03] <ochosi> knome: so the dev docs are in an ok place imo, looks good
[22:03] <knome> ochosi, and what about the introduction, you agree what it says?
[22:04] <ochosi> yeah, looks ok
[22:04] <knome> ok, also see the new contact page
[22:05] <knome> (and you probably noticed the new banner too...)
[22:05] <ochosi> yeah, much cleaner
[22:05] <ochosi> thus better
[22:05] <knome> yep
[22:05] <knome> agree
[22:05] <knome> i was also thinking about the timezone stuff
[22:05] <knome> do people use it?
[22:05] <knome> probably not a question to the team...
[22:10] <ochosi> yeah, good question
[22:11] <slickymaster> knome, checking it
[22:12] <ochosi> ali1234: so what's the conclusion here? if ubiquity is setting both struts correctly i guess xfwm4 should be fixed somehow
[22:13] <ali1234> yeah
[22:13] <ali1234> it mean refactoring workspaces.c
[22:13] <slickymaster> knome, seems good
[22:13] <ali1234> and maybe some other stuff
[22:13] <slickymaster> but there's one odd thing that has to be corrected
[22:13] <slickymaster> will you do it, or can I?
[22:14] <knome> slickymaster, as the documentation team lead, you could take a stance if something from http://xubuntu.org/contribute/development/ or http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/ should be moved there, they seem to be pretty comprehensive
[22:14] <knome> slickymaster, it's a wiki, i don't have the edit lock... :)
[22:15] <ali1234> the easiest fix would be to just make ubiquity not set that partial strut
[22:15] <slickymaster> it's just that between point 3 and 4 of the 'Translation validity' section there's no <br> like between point 1 and 2 and point two and three
[22:15] <ali1234> but there might be a reason why it does that
[22:15] <slickymaster> on it
[22:16] <knome> slickymaster, ;)
[22:16]  * slickymaster is waking up the hamsters
[22:16] <knome> slickymaster, you start to sound like an artist...
[22:17] <slickymaster> nopes, but I did work as a professional photographer on  architecture for several years
[22:17] <elfy> knome: as in Documentation - Testing ?
[22:17] <knome> elfy, no, as in "Quality Assurance - Testing"
[22:18] <knome> slickymaster, ooh :P
[22:18] <elfy> knome: yea just saw that :)
[22:18] <knome> elfy, and you too, maybe we should rethink our scopes now that we actually have that developer documentation
[22:18] <elfy> I refuse to use the word Scope 
[22:18] <knome> ahah
[22:19] <knome> but you just did :(
[22:19] <elfy> well I'll not fall into that trap again :p
[22:20] <knome> ;)
[22:20] <slickymaster> knome, what about linking "... file a bug against the package itself."?
[22:20] <knome> i'll get you...
[22:20] <knome> slickymaster, to what?
[22:20] <knome> slickymaster, i mean, isn't that supposed to be a general guideline for all xubuntu translations
[22:21] <knome> slickymaster, mostly documentation though, as the intro says
[22:21] <knome> i mean i wouldn't want not to encourage these good conventions and validity concerns amongst all packages
[22:21] <knome> if we said they only cover documentation...
[22:21] <slickymaster> tho link it to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
[22:22] <slickymaster> if there's something wrong with a tag in the docs, the bug should be raised against https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
[22:22] <knome> slickymaster, yes, but you're missing my point
[22:22] <knome> read the intro
[22:22] <knome> These guidelines apply mostly for the Xubuntu documentation. They can generally be applied to any translation with minor modification. If unsure, ask the Documentation team members for assistance. 
[22:22] <knome> well, i guess minor modification could mean a different package
[22:22] <slickymaster> ok, I see what you mean
[22:22]  * knome shrugs
[22:23] <ochosi> ali1234: "refactoring" in combination with any code parts doesn't sound like it's going to happen pre4.12
[22:23] <knome> slickymaster, give me an example of "Placeholders and variable names, such as %(variablename)s, $name or ${name}, should always be left untranslated."
[22:23] <ali1234> ochosi: it would be helpful to know when the regression occured
[22:23] <knome> slickymaster, i know you said $PACKAGENAME, but was there something else you had in mind?
[22:24] <slickymaster> yeah, but to be honest I don't remember now what it was :P
[22:24] <knome> well tell me when you do
[22:24] <ochosi> ali1234: either when we added the panel or when 4.11.3 hit the archives
[22:24] <slickymaster> yes
[22:24] <ochosi> elfy: got an idea here? ^
[22:24] <knome> slickymaster, i think generally those can be translated, considering they are not technical variable placeholders
[22:25] <knome> slickymaster, like %s somewhere (not in the documentation though)
[22:25] <ochosi> ali1234: i guess to the worst we'll deactivate the panel again for xfwm4, it used to be pre-15.04
[22:25] <ochosi> ali1234: until *now* we didn't see a reason not to use it
[22:25] <knome> slickymaster, and then again those variables might have a completely different meaning and it might be so that they can be changed
[22:25] <knome> slickymaster, eg. localized date formats
[22:25] <knome> slickymaster, then the translation string comment usually tells what to do though
[22:26] <slickymaster> perhaps 
[22:26] <knome> slickymaster, if it doesn't then it's an issue with the source
[22:26] <elfy> ochosi: no - I tend to just daily make sure the image boots and do a quick smoketest from livesession
[22:27] <slickymaster> that's it
[22:27] <ochosi> elfy: so you'd have noticed this earlier? how far do your smoketests go?
[22:27] <slickymaster> ideally they shouldn't be there to begin with
[22:27] <knome> slickymaster, no, they should be there
[22:27] <elfy> ochosi: no I'd not have noticed it earlier as the issue doesn't show up installing from the livesession
[22:27] <knome> slickymaster, the portuguese way to format the date is probably different than the finnish way
[22:28] <slickymaster> but that's system bound
[22:28] <knome> slickymaster, so it's a great thing that the software author enables the translators to use that
[22:28] <knome> slickymaster, using the system format is not always possible or desirable
[22:28] <slickymaster> I'm aware knome 
[22:28] <knome> slickymaster, dates are just one of the examples
[22:29] <knome> slickymaster, other examples are formatting various number things, like "Found %d articles"
[22:29] <slickymaster> my fear is that opening a window like that, enabling their translation might end up in a sort of mess like the one we're dealing now
[22:29] <knome> slickymaster, in which the variable should be moved based on the language, eg. in finnish that would be "%d artikkelia löydettiin"
[22:30] <ochosi> elfy: ok that means it could've been happening since we added the panel :/
[22:30] <slickymaster> in that example you're not changinf the variable itself, just its placement
[22:30] <slickymaster> knome: ^
[22:30] <slickymaster> changing even
[22:30] <knome> slickymaster, sure, but i can't remember seeing a variable referenced by %(variable)
[22:31] <slickymaster> I'll have to dig it deeper
[22:32] <knome> slickymaster, they probably exist, but maybe it would be better to say that separately with a blanket statement; "Different programming languages and software might have different variable syntaxes; make sure you are familiar with the appropriate software variable syntax when translating. More information on this can often be found in the translation string comment."
[22:32] <elfy> ochosi: possibly 
[22:32] <slickymaster> anyway, those are guidelines, not an airtight ruleset knome 
[22:32] <elfy> ochosi: I have run from the install option - but couldn't say when it was 
[22:32] <slickymaster> that would work for me
[22:32] <slickymaster> knome: 
[22:32] <knome> slickymaster, yep.
[22:33] <knome> slickymaster, we definitely don't use that kind of stuff in the documentation
[22:33] <ochosi> elfy: okeydokey, well hopefully one of the ubiquity devs will be able to give some input
[22:33] <ochosi> or we can try our luck with ofourdan tomorrow
[22:33] <ochosi> i doubt the latter would result in a fix pre-b1
[22:34] <ochosi> but who knows
[22:34] <slickymaster> knome, do you want to rephrased point three then
[22:34] <elfy> ochosi: ack
[22:34] <knome> slickymaster, i'd pop it off the list and put it somewhere else
[22:34] <knome> slickymaster, but i don't have a strong opinion where
[22:34] <elfy> wandering off now - night all
[22:35] <knome> slickymaster, or move it as the last item
[22:35] <ochosi> same here
[22:35] <ochosi> night
[22:35] <knome> slickymaster, with a note that it doesn't concern the documentation
[22:35] <slickymaster> knome, it could be moved from validity to conventions
[22:35] <knome> slickymaster, well actually, put it after the list as a paragraph ?
[22:35] <slickymaster> with that note
[22:35] <knome> no, it's not a convention; if you misdo it, it can break the validity
[22:36] <slickymaster> you're right
[22:36] <knome> well it will break the translation unless you are lucky :)
[22:36] <slickymaster> nighty elfy 
[22:36] <knome> night elfy, ochosi 
[22:36] <slickymaster> yeah, but let's not push luck :P
[22:36] <slickymaster> ochosi, nghty
[22:37] <slickymaster> let's do it as you suggest
[22:37] <slickymaster> knome: 
[22:37] <knome> will you or shall i?
[22:37] <slickymaster> you can do it
[22:37] <knome> ok, just a sec
[22:38] <knome> done
[22:38]  * slickymaster checks
[22:39] <slickymaster> knome, what about Note being in bolf font?
[22:39] <slickymaster> just 'Note'
[22:39] <knome> it's not that important
[22:39] <knome> it's just a sidenote
[22:39] <slickymaster> not importance realted
[22:39] <slickymaster> * related
[22:39] <knome> well it is
[22:39] <slickymaster> aesthetics
[22:40] <knome> we don't want to drag focus to it since it's not even concerning our docs
[22:40] <slickymaster> lol
[22:40] <knome> haha
[22:40] <slickymaster> :)
[22:40] <knome> well, opinions...
[22:40] <slickymaster> but all and all, I think it was a good choice
[22:40] <knome> even aesthetially, i think it's better like it is
[22:40] <knome> +c
[22:40] <slickymaster> opting for the wiki solution
[22:40]  * knome "urses" the C key
[22:40] <slickymaster> at least for now
[22:40]  * knome hits it
[22:41] <slickymaster> knome is going msd
[22:41] <slickymaster> sigh
[22:41] <slickymaster> mad even
[22:41] <knome> haha
[22:41] <knome> i'm always mad at my c
[22:41] <slickymaster> :)
[22:42] <slickymaster> and it's one more asset to provide in the last translation call
[22:42] <knome> yes, and a sensible one...
[22:43] <slickymaster> which reminds me that I haven't even started to look at the packages used by and essential for Xubuntu pt translations
[22:44] <knome> hehe :)
[22:44] <knome> good for you
[22:44] <slickymaster> no moral
[22:44] <knome> ;)
[22:44] <knome> write more documentation then...
[22:44] <slickymaster> I'll start it this weekend
[22:45] <slickymaster> there won't be so many strins to work on anyway
[22:45] <knome> i should probably do some xfce translations
[23:25] <bluesabre> hey all
[23:27] <knome> hullo bluesabre 
[23:28] <bluesabre> hey knome
[23:28] <bluesabre> ochosi: saw the ping storm while I was away today... so where are we at?
[23:57] <slickymaster> knome, did you check https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/+imports lately?
[23:58] <slickymaster> two of your uploads failed
[23:58] <flexiondotorg> How is your testing going/
[23:58] <slickymaster> hey bluesabre 
[23:58] <knome> for saucy and trusty...
[23:58]  * knome shrugs
[23:58] <slickymaster> yes
[23:58] <knome> duplicate key value violates unique constraint "pomsgid_msgid_key"
[23:58] <knome> DETAIL:  Key (sha1(msgid))=(819d25f001723101cd015feeacde55ee233c7b8b) already exists.
[23:58] <bluesabre> hey slickymaster 
[23:59] <knome> i have no idea what that means, exiting debugging.
[23:59] <knome> slickymaster, approved your es.po (if that needed doing so, i'm not completely sure what LP requires me to do, but what i've done has worked so far...)