| === duflu_ is now known as duflu | ||
| === mfisch is now known as Guest63892 | ||
| pitti | Good morning | 06:27 |
|---|---|---|
| didrocks | morning | 07:29 |
| happyaron | didrocks: hey | 07:32 |
| happyaron | attente_: qt5 version is uploaded to archive | 07:32 |
| didrocks | hey happyaron | 07:34 |
| pitti | bonjour didrocks, c,a va / | 07:53 |
| pitti | eek, what happened to my compose key? | 07:53 |
| didrocks | pitti: ça peut aller, et toi ? | 07:53 |
| pitti | didrocks: je suis fatigue', comme tous le jeudi apre`s basketball | 07:54 |
| * pitti switches keyboard layout twice, and voilà - compose key ! | 07:54 | |
| pitti | didrocks: and I'm fighting some issues with the latest cloud-init | 07:54 |
| didrocks | pitti: oh, still following up from yesterday? | 07:56 |
| pitti | didrocks: yeah, I just filed a bug for and worked around broken ssh | 07:57 |
| pitti | didrocks: and I'm now looking at why rsyslog stopped working (systemd's tests fail on that) | 07:57 |
| pitti | (on the cloud images) | 07:57 |
| didrocks | urgh | 07:58 |
| didrocks | yeah, I imagine for cloud-init, rsyslog forwarding may be important :) | 07:58 |
| seb128 | hey didrocks pitti | 08:00 |
| pitti | bonjour seb128 | 08:00 |
| didrocks | hey seb128 | 08:00 |
| pitti | go rsyslogd -- no manpage, no useful --help | 08:00 |
| pitti | oh sorry, it does have a manpage | 08:00 |
| pitti | open error 13, file '/var/log/syslog': Permission denied | 08:01 |
| pitti | ah-haa | 08:01 |
| pitti | that's fun, that should affect every new installation where /var/log/syslog doesn't already exist.. | 08:02 |
| didrocks | the acl changes? | 08:02 |
| didrocks | oh? | 08:02 |
| pitti | hah, seb128 filed that as bug 1401984, and we added a tmpfiles.d for it ages ago | 08:03 |
| ubot5 | bug 1401984 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "non persistent logging after cleaning log files on disk" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1401984 | 08:03 |
| pitti | didrocks: no, the ACL is still there | 08:05 |
| didrocks | interesting | 08:06 |
| didrocks | pitti: btw, now, I'll use any opportunity to check if systemd-timesyncd is activated or not | 08:06 |
| didrocks | just to know if that random starts condition only happens in a vm or not | 08:07 |
| seb128 | woot, a systemd upload where the changelog is not the usual 3 screens long summary of the ubuntu delta :-) | 08:07 |
| pitti | seb128: oh, it's usually just one screen :) | 08:07 |
| pitti | the other two are the changes in Debian :) | 08:07 |
| seb128 | hehe | 08:07 |
| didrocks | pitti: it does try to start it on my system, and but as I already have /tmp as tmpfs, I didn't notice… | 08:08 |
| pitti | didrocks: yeah, same for me I guess; but timesyncd seems to start reliably here | 08:08 |
| didrocks | the condition failed is funny | 08:08 |
| didrocks | ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd was not met | 08:08 |
| didrocks | -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 672624 févr. 9 19:12 /usr/sbin/ntpd | 08:08 |
| didrocks | pitti: I don't understand yet why it becames a RequiresBy=tmp.mount though | 08:09 |
| didrocks | waow, here, it's required even by more things than in the vm | 08:10 |
| didrocks | RequiredBy=colord.service systemd-timesyncd.service local-fs.target rtkit-daemon | 08:10 |
| didrocks | local-fs.target is because I guess it's in my fstab | 08:10 |
| didrocks | seb128: do you have /tmp on tmpfs? | 08:10 |
| seb128 | didrocks, that would show in "mount" right? | 08:11 |
| seb128 | I guess not | 08:11 |
| pitti | didrocks: oh, so if you have ntpd it should indeed *not* start | 08:12 |
| pitti | does it? | 08:12 |
| didrocks | seb128: yeah, it should. So systemctl status tmp.mount says it's not active? (and can you paste the RequiredBy line of systemctl show tmp.mount?) | 08:12 |
| didrocks | pitti: right | 08:13 |
| seb128 | didrocks, inactive indeed | 08:13 |
| seb128 | ● tmp.mount - Temporary Directory | 08:13 |
| seb128 | Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/tmp.mount; disabled; vendor preset: enabled) | 08:13 |
| seb128 | Active: inactive | 08:13 |
| seb128 | RequiredBy=rtkit-daemon.service systemd-timesyncd.service colord.service | 08:13 |
| didrocks | so colord isn't running for you I guess | 08:14 |
| didrocks | neither rtkit-daemon | 08:14 |
| seb128 | $ systemctl status colord | 08:14 |
| seb128 | ● colord.service - Manage, Install and Generate Color Profiles | 08:14 |
| seb128 | Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/colord.service; static; vendor preset: enabled) | 08:14 |
| seb128 | Active: active (running) since mer. 2015-03-04 07:52:18 CET; 1 day 1h ago | 08:14 |
| didrocks | ok, I don't understand it seems :/ | 08:14 |
| didrocks | pitti: any idea? ^ | 08:14 |
| didrocks | 1. it's not an explicit Requirement | 08:15 |
| pitti | didrocks: no idea, sorry | 08:15 |
| didrocks | 2. it's listed as RequiredBy and the same layout starts sometimes tmp.mount in a vm (I was thinking via systemd-timesyncd.service) | 08:15 |
| didrocks | pitti: yeah, I smell something really fishy… | 08:15 |
| didrocks | I guess we'll keep the "fail on no disk space" this cycle anyway | 08:16 |
| didrocks | thanks seb128 :) | 08:16 |
| seb128 | yw | 08:16 |
| pitti | didrocks: but timesyncd should never start in a VM, btw (ConditionVirtualization=no); if you want to test it that way, drop that line | 08:17 |
| didrocks | pitti: it never starts, but it tries to activate (and show, brings the RequiredBy=) at some boot | 08:18 |
| didrocks | so basically, it's either "inactive" or "condition failed" | 08:18 |
| didrocks | in the second case, it started tmp.mount | 08:18 |
| didrocks | and tmp.mount shows it in RequiredBy= even if we don't see it in the unit file | 08:18 |
| didrocks | but in seb's case, it seems that even tmp.mount shows RequiredBy=colord.service (for also on unknown reason), having colord.service started didn't activate tmp.mount | 08:19 |
| didrocks | my only bet is that colord is started via something else | 08:21 |
| seb128 | it's of type dbus | 08:21 |
| seb128 | so it's maybe dbus activated? | 08:21 |
| seb128 | does dbus activiate respects the requirements? | 08:21 |
| didrocks | I guess so | 08:22 |
| didrocks | and that would explain at least this unmatched dep | 08:22 |
| didrocks | no | 08:22 |
| didrocks | it doesn't respect, I guess systemd just see a process and say "oh, it's that unit" | 08:23 |
| didrocks | so mark it as running | 08:23 |
| didrocks | I still don't know why those appears in RequiredBy=, there is nothing explicit, particuarly for systemd-timesync | 08:23 |
| didrocks | (we could think of PrivateTmp=yes for colord would transition to tmp.mount) | 08:24 |
| seb128 | didrocks, what appears in what requiredby? | 08:24 |
| didrocks | seb128: $ systemctl show tmp.mount | grep Required | 08:24 |
| didrocks | RequiredBy=colord.service systemd-timesyncd.service local-fs.target rtkit-daemon.service | 08:24 |
| didrocks | if you systemctl cat (or open) unit files, they don't have a Requires=tmp.mount | 08:25 |
| didrocks | if you grep in /lib/systemd/systemd/*service, no sign of tmp.mount being mentioned as a requirements in any unit | 08:25 |
| pitti | man, git bisect run is so awesome | 08:39 |
| larsu | ya. Feels like magic whenever I use it | 08:41 |
| larsu | morning pitti :) | 08:41 |
| pitti | hey larsu! | 08:41 |
| pitti | yeah; start it, let your computer burn and smoke, and enjoy a Piña Colada :) | 08:42 |
| pitti | or, in my case, work on NFS instead :) | 08:42 |
| seb128 | is that different from bisect? | 08:42 |
| seb128 | does it auto-flag good/bad and how? | 08:42 |
| pitti | seb128: it is a bisect, but in fully automatic mode | 08:42 |
| seb128 | how do it determine the outcome? | 08:42 |
| pitti | seb128: you toss it a script, and looks at its exit code | 08:42 |
| seb128 | k | 08:42 |
| pitti | 0 -> good, < 125 -> bad, 125 -> untestable (e. g. doesn't build) | 08:42 |
| pitti | > 128: abort | 08:43 |
| pitti | so as soon as you have an automatic test case you can let it run | 08:43 |
| pitti | seb128: I did that for the boot hang: my test case was to run an autopkgtest in QEMU with rebooting 30 times | 08:43 |
| larsu | ... and let it find your bug for you | 08:43 |
| pitti | so it went through ~ 1100 commits with that test case in about 2 hours | 08:43 |
| pitti | (now running it for the /var/log issue) | 08:44 |
| larsu | pitti: watch out, you're dangerously close to replacing yourself with a script | 08:44 |
| pitti | I wish I could -- one of these days I *actually* want a Piña Colada! | 08:44 |
| seb128 | lol, I wonder if https://plus.google.com/u/1/+MathieuTrudelLapierre/posts/bFdphmbgAz8 is real :-) | 08:44 |
| seb128 | pitti, nice! | 08:44 |
| pitti | cyphermox: ♥ | 08:45 |
| ochosi | larsu: i vaguely recall you said you don't wanna work on that just yet, but i just patched a panel plugin for xfce to use symbolic icons, it's fairly easy and straightforward (if you'd be interested in doing that for indicators, i mean) | 08:45 |
| larsu | ochosi: ah cool. It's not that much work, is it? | 08:45 |
| larsu | ochosi: we'd need to merge ubuntu-mono-dark and -light first | 08:46 |
| larsu | which is something I've been looking at again yesterday when I added window decoration buttons for both | 08:46 |
| ochosi | larsu: this is pretty much it: http://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/commit/?id=314286b6f7da37472dcc69adfe64b66c07d580ec | 08:46 |
| ochosi | and no, not necessarily | 08:46 |
| ochosi | just ship the symbolic variants in the parent theme | 08:46 |
| ochosi | the -dark variant will inherit automatically | 08:47 |
| larsu | ochosi: the parent theme for both is humanity iirc | 08:47 |
| larsu | hm, why do you preload icons? | 08:47 |
| ochosi | larsu: oh, that's just how that particular plugin was written | 08:48 |
| ochosi | i didn't want to change anything there apart from the icons | 08:48 |
| ochosi | it preloads all icons at once and then uses the appropriate one per volume | 08:48 |
| ochosi | not sure whether that's more efficient than loading what you need at the time | 08:48 |
| larsu | shouldn't make that big of a difference | 08:49 |
| ochosi | prolly not | 08:49 |
| larsu | icons are mmapped anyway | 08:49 |
| larsu | all you do is waste some memory | 08:49 |
| larsu | but it's not a lot, so whatevs | 08:49 |
| ochosi | yeah, it's fairly little | 08:49 |
| ochosi | so basically what i'd propose is start with indicator-sound as a testcase | 08:50 |
| ochosi | use the symbolic icons for the panel button and the menu icons | 08:50 |
| ochosi | (which will be nice because the icons will finally *always* be recolored correctly with all themes) | 08:51 |
| larsu | ochosi: indeed | 08:51 |
| larsu | but! | 08:51 |
| larsu | indicator-sound colors it's icon sometimes | 08:51 |
| ochosi | yeah | 08:51 |
| larsu | we'd need to add a css class in that case and add that to the theme | 08:51 |
| ochosi | symbolic icons obviously account for that | 08:51 |
| larsu | *themes | 08:51 |
| ochosi | nope | 08:51 |
| ochosi | well, at least not really | 08:51 |
| ochosi | as long as the symbolic icons have the error state, you should be fine by just setting that state | 08:52 |
| larsu | this only works for one state, though, and I'm not sure that e.g. Ambiance and Radiance use the same color there | 08:52 |
| larsu | or is that state colorable from the theme as well? | 08:52 |
| ochosi | it's "success_color", "warning_color", "error_color" | 08:53 |
| ochosi | https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkIconTheme.html#gtk-icon-info-load-symbolic | 08:54 |
| ochosi | afaik that's all in the icon, nothing required in the theme | 08:54 |
| larsu | ochosi: ah, those *are* css styles | 08:56 |
| larsu | ans we already do style them | 08:56 |
| larsu | *and | 08:56 |
| ochosi | yeah, sry, but in fact you have to set a class within the icon | 08:56 |
| larsu | right | 08:57 |
| ochosi | so it's both, the theme sets the color and the icon has to have the class set on the paths that should be recolored | 08:57 |
| ochosi | so basically for the blocked stuff you just copy an existing symbolic icon and set the class of all paths to "warning" | 08:57 |
| larsu | so we'll still need to set the corresponding class on the gtkimage I guess | 08:57 |
| ochosi | not sure, no | 08:58 |
| larsu | how else would it know when to recolor? | 08:58 |
| ochosi | it automatically looks inside the svg and sees the class | 08:58 |
| ochosi | at least that's how i think it works | 08:58 |
| larsu | yeah but it needs to know _when_ to draw that part | 08:58 |
| ochosi | so you have "audio-volume-blocked-symbolic" or something | 08:58 |
| larsu | oh | 08:59 |
| larsu | so we'd need to change the icon then | 08:59 |
| larsu | ya, could do | 08:59 |
| ochosi | and that has the "warning" class set | 08:59 |
| ochosi | so all themes would color the icon accordingly | 08:59 |
| ochosi | so it's not about re-using existing icons, although that might be possible as well | 08:59 |
| ochosi | simply by adding a class | 08:59 |
| ochosi | and removing it conditionally from the style contexxt | 08:59 |
| larsu | yeah what you're describing makes more sense to me | 08:59 |
| ochosi | so the icons remain the same, i think the -blocked is already a separate icon | 09:00 |
| larsu | ochosi: this is early-next cycle work though - don't want to mess with that now | 09:00 |
| ochosi | yeah, sure | 09:00 |
| ochosi | if you wanna start the transition and need some help lemme know | 09:00 |
| ochosi | would be good to do that for all indicators | 09:01 |
| larsu | indeed, it would | 09:01 |
| larsu | ochosi: thanks! Will do | 09:01 |
| ochosi | okeydokey :) | 09:01 |
| larsu | thanks for pointing me towards this | 09:01 |
| ochosi | np, btw, you might want to talk to gnome upstream and see whether they see any reason to include a "blocked" icon in adwaita-icon-theme | 09:02 |
| ochosi | that way this would sort of become a standard | 09:02 |
| ochosi | (since nobody seems to care about the fd.o icon spec anymore these days and gnome is the defacto standard for icon-names) | 09:02 |
| ochosi | (nobody loves fd.o anymore :'( ) | 09:02 |
| Laney | yo | 09:04 |
| larsu | ochosi: there's quite a lot of stuff hosted on fd.o and we've been adding new stuff to the specs | 09:06 |
| seb128 | hey Laney | 09:06 |
| larsu | ochosi: icons is a bit failed... | 09:06 |
| larsu | morning Laney! | 09:06 |
| seb128 | Laney, wants to update gtksourceview3 in debian/sync the update? ;-) | 09:06 |
| larsu | yes! | 09:07 |
| larsu | he wants! | 09:07 |
| seb128 | that should fix bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/gedit/+bug/1428333 | 09:07 |
| ubot5 | Ubuntu bug 1428333 in gedit (Ubuntu) "gedit crashes on autocomplete with SIGSEGV in gtk_text_iter_get_buffer()" [High,Confirmed] | 09:07 |
| ochosi | larsu: yeah, i was specifically referring to that spec, not all of them are as outdated as the one for icons | 09:07 |
| seb128 | well combined with https://git.gnome.org/browse/gedit/commit/?id=d48cd10bf0bb99ead7b1af1ead52f1e554ad239d | 09:07 |
| didrocks | morning Laney | 09:08 |
| Laney | hey seb128 didrocks larsu | 09:10 |
| Laney | umm yeah okay | 09:10 |
| seb128 | danke | 09:10 |
| larsu | Laney: that commit depends on gtk 3.16, so please upload that as well | 09:10 |
| seb128 | lol | 09:10 |
| * larsu <-- on troll day. Won't be here tomorrow | 09:11 | |
| seb128 | which depends on bluez5, so while you are at it... | 09:11 |
| larsu | HAHA | 09:11 |
| larsu | nice one | 09:11 |
| ochosi | larsu: btw, how did you fix the scale grabbing in indicator-sound? | 09:11 |
| seb128 | :-) | 09:11 |
| seb128 | larsu, want to review https://code.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/libdbusmenu/custom-stock-item-label/+merge/251840 ? it's a one liner | 09:12 |
| larsu | seb128: yes, a long time ago?! | 09:12 |
| seb128 | larsu, what a long time ago? | 09:12 |
| larsu | seb128: oops, this was supposed to go to ochosi | 09:12 |
| seb128 | larsu, was that for ochosi? he asked "how" | 09:12 |
| * larsu can't read, and can't type | 09:13 | |
| ochosi | larsu: wait, but that happened during this cycle, no? i remember not being able to click the volume scale correctly | 09:13 |
| larsu | ochosi: it did. I think the issue was that something reset the volume while you were dragging it | 09:14 |
| seb128 | larsu, ochosi, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/195548750/ido_13.10.0%2B15.04.20141103-0ubuntu1_13.10.0%2B15.04.20150122-0ubuntu1.diff.gz | 09:14 |
| seb128 | that one? | 09:14 |
| ochosi | that looks like it could be it | 09:15 |
| seb128 | https://code.launchpad.net/~larsu/ido/fix-volume-slider/+merge/247198 | 09:15 |
| seb128 | is the corresponding mr | 09:15 |
| larsu | indeed, thanks seb128 | 09:16 |
| seb128 | yw | 09:16 |
| ochosi | awesome, thanks seb128 | 09:16 |
| seb128 | yw | 09:16 |
| larsu | the volume resetting stuff was about the notification popping up | 09:16 |
| ochosi | so is that a change that is gtk3 version specific or anything? | 09:16 |
| ochosi | cause i remember it broke with gtk3.14 in the indicator | 09:17 |
| larsu | ochosi: yes. I remember not bothering to figure out the actual change that caused the issue, but there was quite some work done in gtk on event handling | 09:18 |
| larsu | all I did was not propagating events from the menu item to the scale in all cases | 09:18 |
| ochosi | yeah, i wonder whether that works on older gtk3 releases as well | 09:19 |
| larsu | ochosi: don't try?! | 09:19 |
| ochosi | heh | 09:20 |
| ochosi | well, tbh for the plugin that i linked earlier we copied the indicator's scale menu item | 09:20 |
| larsu | ochosi: port to popovers! | 09:20 |
| larsu | it's the future | 09:21 |
| ochosi | yeah, we haven't decided about those things yet | 09:21 |
| ochosi | basically that needs a global xfce decision | 09:21 |
| larsu | right, makes sense | 09:21 |
| ochosi | and we've only just released 4.12 last weekend | 09:22 |
| ochosi | so my work is more or less exploratory at this stage | 09:22 |
| larsu | seb128: the bug linked to this MR is WontFix by both tedg and mpt... | 09:23 |
| larsu | (the dbusmenu issue) | 09:24 |
| larsu | ochosi: yeah I saw. Congrats on 4.12 :) | 09:24 |
| larsu | seems people like it | 09:24 |
| seb128 | larsu, feel free to reject the change | 09:24 |
| ochosi | larsu: hah, that is a very diplomatic statement "some ppl like it" :) i'm just happy we could finally move out of the stalling and now there's a clear goal (port to gtk3) | 09:25 |
| larsu | ochosi: I didn't say "some" ;) | 09:26 |
| ochosi | oh ooops :) | 09:26 |
| * ochosi wonders why/how he managed to misread that | 09:26 | |
| larsu | I read some reviews and they were mostly positive | 09:26 |
| larsu | that's what I meant | 09:26 |
| larsu | haven't tried it myself yet | 09:26 |
| ochosi | yeah, no dramatic changes, which is generally an xfce policy | 09:27 |
| larsu | but yeah, I'm glad you guys are releasing again :) | 09:27 |
| ochosi | yeah, took a while and a lot of personal effort | 09:27 |
| larsu | oh, mpt reopened that bug... | 09:27 |
| larsu | man, such a non-issue | 09:27 |
| larsu | ochosi: I can imagine | 09:27 |
| ochosi | larsu: btw, i'm not sure you're interested in this sort of redesign, but i had an idea for indicator-sound that would rid you of the mute menuicon | 09:37 |
| ochosi | larsu: basically, only have a volume icon on the left (the one on the right is a bit superfluous really, i mean what's that scale gonna do? decrease the volume?) and make that a button instead of an icon which on click mutes | 09:38 |
| ochosi | larsu: well un/mutes obviously | 09:38 |
| Sweet5hark | moin | 09:39 |
| larsu | ochosi: both icons already do something (move the slider all the way in that direction) | 09:39 |
| larsu | ochosi: I personally dislike having mute separately from volume, but this is an issue to take up with mpt. He designed the sound menu | 09:40 |
| ochosi | larsu: oh right, i never even noticed that | 09:40 |
| larsu | ochosi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound | 09:40 |
| ochosi | guess some hover-effect on the icons would help users to notice that | 09:40 |
| Sweet5hark | ... feeling trollish today, I have to note that larsus Berlin and my home of Hamburg both moved up in the 2015 imercer quality of living ranking, kicking out Canadians and kiwis. | 09:41 |
| ochosi | larsu: so it's actually less of a departure from the current state, mostly adding a feature where clicking that icon again will restore the previously set volume... | 09:41 |
| larsu | ochosi: feel free to file a bug for i-sound and assign mpt (or the ux team) | 09:41 |
| larsu | yeah, that would be weird though | 09:41 |
| larsu | Sweet5hark: economist ranked toronto the most livable city | 09:42 |
| ochosi | not if there's only one icon | 09:42 |
| mpt | Don’t assign teams to bugs, real people don’t see them | 09:42 |
| larsu | Sweet5hark: and really, I trust those guys more :) | 09:42 |
| larsu | mpt: sorry. And hi! | 09:42 |
| mpt | Good morning :-) | 09:43 |
| ochosi | mpt: does that idea even make sense to you? i guess there's no use in writing something up when you already know that's not what you want | 09:43 |
| Sweet5hark | larsu: you should move to Hamburg then, economist ranks them first in Germany (Top 14 globally) followed by Frankfurst as next german city ;) | 09:44 |
| larsu | Sweet5hark: haha, you're funny. | 09:45 |
| larsu | :O | 09:45 |
| larsu | Sweet5hark: seriously though, I totally believe that Hamburg is more livable than Berlin | 09:45 |
| larsu | they look at all kinds of factors | 09:45 |
| Sweet5hark | larsu: this is why our rents and real estate prices are where yours are only slowly going to ... | 09:46 |
| larsu | Sweet5hark: actually, not so slowly these days... | 09:46 |
| larsu | Sweet5hark: but then, we have quite some catching up to do compared to HH | 09:47 |
| * larsu should visit there properly | 09:47 | |
| larsu | never really been to the city | 09:47 |
| mpt | ochosi, sorry, I just read back 60 minutes but don’t see any bug or MR reference … What’s the idea? | 09:47 |
| larsu | mpt: remove mute in favor of the buttons next to the volume slider | 09:48 |
| ochosi | mpt: yeah, no MR/bugreport yet, i basically proposed dropping the mute menuitem, only using one sound icon to the left of the scale and using that as mute-button. adding a hover-style to that icon would help users see what it does | 09:48 |
| flexiondotorg_ | The MATE team have found a bug in upower that affects mate-power-manager. | 09:58 |
| flexiondotorg_ | Fedora has a simple patch that is confirmed as working. | 09:58 |
| flexiondotorg_ | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mate/+bug/1428337 | 09:58 |
| ubot5 | Ubuntu bug 1428337 in ubuntu-mate "MATE power statistics crashed" [Undecided,Triaged] | 09:58 |
| flexiondotorg_ | Could someone take a peek? | 09:58 |
| larsu | flexiondotorg_: sure. Please add upower to the bug and link an upstream bug (create one if it doesn't exist) | 09:59 |
| flexiondotorg_ | larsu, Thanks. | 09:59 |
| pitti | or rather, move it to upower, doesn't seem to be m-p-m's fault | 10:00 |
| pitti | flexiondotorg_: I'll have a look later and commit it upstream (but still debugging some stuff) | 10:00 |
| mpt | ochosi, larsu: This is going back far enough that I need to refer to what I wrote at the time to remember why I did stuff. <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound#A.2BIBw-Mute.2BIB0-> says ‘The first item, “Mute”, makes it easy to urgently silence unwanted sound using a pointing device.’ Just the tiny button to the left of the slider wouldn’t be clickable nearly as quickly. | 10:04 |
| mpt | Especially (but not only) while bug 552920 remains unfixed. | 10:05 |
| ubot5 | bug 552920 in unity (Ubuntu) "Moving diagonally from narrow menu title often opens adjacent menu" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/552920 | 10:05 |
| flexiondotorg_ | pitti Also affects gnome-power-manager | 10:06 |
| pitti | why? | 10:07 |
| pitti | is there another bug which needs to be fixed there? | 10:07 |
| pitti | looks like a crash in libupower-glib | 10:07 |
| larsu | mpt: there are no submenus involved there... | 10:08 |
| mpt | ochosi, larsu: The only reason the volume slider icons do *anything* when clicked is that I thought, “well if someone *did* click them, what would they be expecting to happen?” — not because I expected anyone to use them as the primary way of doing something. | 10:08 |
| flexiondotorg_ | pitti, I am just linking to where that bug has been experienced. | 10:08 |
| mpt | larsu, eh? I didn’t mention submenus :-) | 10:08 |
| larsu | mpt: oh! I thought the bug you mentioned was about that, but it's about menut titles. Sorry | 10:09 |
| larsu | mpt: makes more sense now :) | 10:09 |
| larsu | mpt: I like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound#Mute, which is basically what the left menu item now does | 10:10 |
| larsu | but I don't think it would be well received if we switched this now | 10:10 |
| larsu | especially since many laptops have a "mute" key with an led which is on while the sound is muted | 10:11 |
| mpt | Is that software-controllable? | 10:12 |
| mpt | For convergence!!!!1 I guess we’ll need to change one or the other eventually :-) | 10:13 |
| larsu | haha, indeed | 10:13 |
| larsu | I don't know, it's probably not controllable on all machines | 10:13 |
| ochosi | mpt: yeah, understandable, and i wouldn't propose this as a change for this cycle anyway | 10:25 |
| ochosi | mpt: and i guess i'd only have one icon but bump the size of that to 22 or 24px, so it's more easily clickable | 10:27 |
| mpt | ochosi, that would increase the height of the item as a whole, and I’m not a fan of menu items of slightly varying heights — it looks accidental | 10:30 |
| ochosi | what about the playback controls then? :] | 10:31 |
| mpt | Those (a) are massively different, not slightly, and (b) have borders around them clearly indicating their non-standard-ness :-) | 10:32 |
| ochosi | sure, makes sense | 10:34 |
| Laney | did anyone check the gnome-terminal wrapper? | 10:41 |
| ochosi | larsu: there is something wrong with your commit or the idoscalemenuitem still. if you try to hover the scale-button, it isn't drawn in hover style. however, if you hover approx 50px to the left of the scale-button it gets the hover-style applied | 10:47 |
| ochosi | noticed when porting your change to the plugin i'm working on | 10:47 |
| larsu | indeed :( | 10:48 |
| * larsu makes a note of fixing this | 10:48 | |
| * Laney gets a keyboard layout debconf prompt on latest dist-upgrade | 10:49 | |
| Laney | cccccccyyyyyphhhhhhhherrrrrrrmooooooooooooxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | 10:49 |
| didrocks | Laney: opportunity for you to switch to a french layout! | 10:51 |
| Laney | I 'ate french! | 10:51 |
| didrocks | :p | 10:51 |
| larsu | Laney: don't be so 'ateful | 10:52 |
| * Laney fluffles all French #ubuntu-desktoppers | 10:52 | |
| didrocks | /msg seb128 when did we discuss last time we would lay off a non french person in the desktop team? | 10:53 |
| didrocks | oups ;) | 10:53 |
| * Laney looks at mlankhorst | 10:53 | |
| didrocks | roh, he left, that doesn't count! | 10:53 |
| larsu | haha lol | 10:54 |
| * Laney slinks away :( | 10:54 | |
| mlankhorst | you can still fire me :P | 10:54 |
| Laney | hey mlankhorst | 10:54 |
| Laney | do you have to move somewhere for intel? | 10:54 |
| mlankhorst | no, still working from home | 10:54 |
| Laney | nice, didn't know that they did this | 10:54 |
| mlankhorst | they only do it when you were already working on something related from home | 10:54 |
| didrocks | seems Laney is getting infos for his next job :p | 10:55 |
| mlankhorst | nothing wrong with that | 10:55 |
| Laney | heheh | 10:55 |
| didrocks | this is sad, even no willcooke for teasing! | 10:55 |
| Laney | when the cat is away | 10:55 |
| mlankhorst | http://thedailywtf.com/articles/Up-or-Out-Solving-the-IT-Turnover-Crisis :P | 10:56 |
| Laney | haha | 10:56 |
| Laney | I see what you're calling yourself | 10:56 |
| mlankhorst | naww but it's going to be hard to top Xmir, and X is on the way out :( | 10:57 |
| mlankhorst | I'm investigating on how to make GLES2 work on X in arm, it's harder than desktop :P | 10:58 |
| mlankhorst | afk a bit | 11:00 |
| didrocks | pitti: would you suggest to use ID_FS_TYPE to get a file system type (I don't use udev in the script, so I will just build a new udev_device_new_from_devnum for this), or is there any other way that is easier? | 11:24 |
| pitti | didrocks: if you don't use udev already, calling blkid might be easier | 11:24 |
| didrocks | ok, by directly getting the TYPE tag | 11:25 |
| pitti | $ blkid -s TYPE -o value /dev/sda3 | 11:25 |
| * didrocks looks | 11:25 | |
| pitti | btrfs | 11:25 |
| didrocks | thanks pitti :) | 11:25 |
| pitti | didrocks: ah, Lennart's recent answers clarify that quite a bit? | 11:31 |
| pitti | e. g. colord also has PrivateTmp=yes | 11:31 |
| didrocks | pitti: yeah, that was what I was infering here | 11:34 |
| didrocks | pitti: but so, if any of those runs, it means that users will have tmpfs by default on vivid | 11:35 |
| pitti | oh, what a disaster :) | 11:35 |
| didrocks | pitti: so, either was mask the unit by default, either we enable it for everyone, not feeling well to have different experience here in case of bugs, wdyt? | 11:36 |
| pitti | didrocks: can we discuss that in #d-systemd? | 11:37 |
| didrocks | sure | 11:37 |
| MacSlow | Trevinho, seb128: hey folks... have you perhaps seen a glitch with current vivid (desktop) like this yet: unity/compiz reacts sluggish once qmlscene is started to run a .qml file? | 12:17 |
| MacSlow | Trevinho, seb128: just wondering if it's just on my system or a general issue | 12:18 |
| === alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch | ||
| === MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch | ||
| Laney | blah | 12:56 |
| Laney | lost my compose key | 12:56 |
| Laney | now I can't type my gpg passphrase! | 12:56 |
| Laney | restarting u-s-d fixed it | 13:07 |
| === alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g | ||
| Trevinho | mlankhorst: mh not saw that.. | 13:57 |
| Trevinho | err... sorry, I meant MacSlow|lunch ^ | 13:57 |
| Trevinho | MacSlow|lunch: nothing outside the qmlscene itself, which is something qt related | 13:58 |
| MacSlow|lunch | Trevinho, I'll still have to try it on my laptop (intel gfx) to have a comparison to my desktop (nvidia, binary blob driver), where I've seen this | 13:59 |
| MacSlow|lunch | Trevinho, unity's app-switcher was also affected... being very slow and sluggish to respond to a first invocation | 14:00 |
| Trevinho | mh | 14:00 |
| === MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow | ||
| * Trevinho has no nvidia to check with | 14:00 | |
| MacSlow | Trevinho, I'll get back to you after I tried it on my laptop | 14:00 |
| Trevinho | andyrock has one btw ^ | 14:01 |
| MacSlow | Trevinho, andyrock: hm... no issues on my laptop (intel gfx) | 14:07 |
| cyphermox | seb128: pitti: yes, we can "Spock" our old five dollar bills by drawing hair and such on John A. Macdonald. Legal, but not very appreciated ;) | 14:08 |
| pitti | haha | 14:09 |
| cyphermox | pitti: btw thanks for fixing NM autopilot :) | 14:09 |
| pitti | cyphermox: it's autopkgtest, but you're welcome :) | 14:09 |
| cyphermox | uh, right | 14:10 |
| Laney | mardy: hi, are you planning to drop windows live (msn) messenger support from $uoa_component? | 14:46 |
| mardy | Laney: mmm... no, should I? | 15:05 |
| Laney | mardy: it's gone now | 15:06 |
| mardy | Laney: you mean that Live doesn't exist anymore? | 15:06 |
| Laney | There's some dodgy patch to use a not shut down server, but basically yes | 15:09 |
| Laney | http://ismsndeadyet.com/ | 15:15 |
| * didrocks doesn't understand the open() behavior on an overlay fs | 15:44 | |
| Laney | mardy: ↑ forgot to highlight you | 15:45 |
| desrt | didrocks: which overlay fs? | 15:54 |
| desrt | aufs? overlayfs? other? | 15:54 |
| desrt | it changes depending on the FS | 15:54 |
| didrocks | desrt: overlayfs | 15:54 |
| desrt | overlayfs is the weirdest one | 15:54 |
| didrocks | desrt: basically, I try to detect on which fs type a file is (for a systemd patch) | 15:54 |
| desrt | if you open() a file and there is nothing in the overlay then it will open() the file in the underlay | 15:54 |
| desrt | which is weird | 15:54 |
| didrocks | yeah, that's what I see | 15:55 |
| desrt | since if you then open() and trunc the file from another process, the person who opened it will still see the underlay file | 15:55 |
| desrt | they do it in the name of performance | 15:55 |
| desrt | since the 99% case is that there is no overlay file | 15:55 |
| didrocks | yeah, my issue is different and probably in the open options I'm using | 15:55 |
| mardy | Laney: thanks; I guess it's a matter or editing the rdepends of account-plugin-windows-live, and remove it as a dependency? | 15:55 |
| desrt | and keeping around all of those extra files the kernel (and constantly doing checks to see if the file has been created each time you access it) is very expensive | 15:55 |
| didrocks | desrt: for using blkid to get the fs type, I first need to have the device name, and so, I'm getting the devnum from the fd of that file (and so, I open() it) | 15:56 |
| desrt | hah. | 15:56 |
| didrocks | desrt: until I touch the file, open() works well | 15:56 |
| Laney | mardy: I don't know exactly what'd need changing, but yes I'm sure it's mostly deleting | 15:56 |
| didrocks | and I get the squashfs type on the live | 15:56 |
| desrt | st_dev is completely screwed up on overlays... | 15:56 |
| Laney | mardy: We'd also want to SRU this to 14.04 at least I think | 15:56 |
| didrocks | desrt: once I modify the file, open() returns an < 0 fd | 15:56 |
| desrt | eh? | 15:57 |
| desrt | you mean to say, it fails | 15:57 |
| desrt | presumably with some helpful hint in errno | 15:57 |
| didrocks | yeah | 15:57 |
| didrocks | ell | 15:57 |
| didrocks | well | 15:57 |
| didrocks | helpful being "No such file or directory" | 15:57 |
| desrt | are you using openat() on the dir or something? | 15:58 |
| didrocks | desrt: oh screw that, it's the probe failing | 15:58 |
| desrt | heh | 15:58 |
| didrocks | desrt: I was on the original script to check the error message | 15:58 |
| didrocks | so yeah, due to the bad st_dev | 15:58 |
| didrocks | hum… | 15:58 |
| didrocks | how can I know then I'm on an overlayfs system? | 15:59 |
| desrt | the 'usual tricks' go out the window here | 15:59 |
| desrt | ie: traversing the chain up and comparing st_dev at each point | 15:59 |
| desrt | i think the best mechanism it to consult /proc/mount | 15:59 |
| didrocks | urgh, ok :p | 15:59 |
| desrt | i'm planning to make similar changes in glib, fwiw... | 16:00 |
| desrt | overlays are kind shit for this reason | 16:00 |
| * desrt can't type today | 16:00 | |
| didrocks | desrt: basically systemd got tricked because to check if a file is a mount point, it checks the file device block, then the dir device blocks | 16:00 |
| didrocks | and of course, they are different (as for dir, they are 0) | 16:00 |
| desrt | ya... that's what you're supposed to do | 16:00 |
| desrt | at least in the old world :) | 16:00 |
| desrt | now i think you'll just have to check /proc/mounts | 16:01 |
| didrocks | "nice" :) | 16:01 |
| desrt | this is sort of what led me to my recent work on the mount monitor code in glib | 16:01 |
| desrt | we have some serious pain coming in the next couple of years as overlays-in-containers get more popular | 16:02 |
| desrt | and there is still a lot of work to do there | 16:02 |
| didrocks | right, I bet this is not the only "exception" due to overlays | 16:02 |
| desrt | anyway... i hope you're enjoying yourself :) | 16:03 |
| didrocks | desrt: totally, it's yet-another-supposively-10-minutes-hack-which-won't-be-one :) | 16:03 |
| desrt | heh. welcome to my life :p | 16:04 |
| desrt | nothing can ever be easy -- otherwise someone else would have done it by now :p | 16:04 |
| didrocks | pitti: FYI btw, (context: bug #1411140) ^ | 16:04 |
| ubot5 | bug 1411140 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-machine-id-commit.service fails on live system" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1411140 | 16:04 |
| didrocks | desrt: heh, yeah, I see. Didn't I tell you I prefer using glib than having to code at the same low level without it? :) | 16:04 |
| pitti | glib! glib! glib! | 16:05 |
| desrt | didrocks: i'm afraid today's glib won't help you a lot here | 16:05 |
| desrt | well, the mount monitor stuff would help, i guess | 16:05 |
| didrocks | desrt: yeah, in that particular case, agreed :) | 16:05 |
| desrt | since it provides a nice wrapping around /proc/mounts | 16:05 |
| desrt | but this isn't saving you the 'hard work' really | 16:05 |
| desrt | also: it's not very efficient today | 16:05 |
| didrocks | oh, like with separators or structured? | 16:05 |
| desrt | https://developer.gnome.org/gio/stable/gio-Unix-Mounts.html | 16:06 |
| desrt | _get_mount_path() _get_device_path() _get_fs_type() etc | 16:06 |
| desrt | all it really saves you, though, is the parsing | 16:07 |
| desrt | which is not difficult to do | 16:07 |
| desrt | this is meant more as an abstraction layer to help on platforms that don't have /proc/mounts | 16:07 |
| desrt | macos has some weird syscalls for that info, for example | 16:07 |
| desrt | there is no efficient mechanism for doing a lookup, as an example. that's something i want to add. | 16:08 |
| didrocks | interesting, yeah, lookup part would avoid looping over manually | 16:08 |
| didrocks | anyway, no glib for me :p | 16:08 |
| didrocks | only my eyes to cry | 16:08 |
| desrt | :) | 16:09 |
| didrocks | (<-- insert sad violon music here) | 16:09 |
| * desrt isn't sure what he'd do without didrocks around to provide a constant injection of sadness | 16:09 | |
| didrocks | rohhh :) | 16:09 |
| desrt | no. it's good :) | 16:10 |
| desrt | gotta have balance, you know | 16:10 |
| didrocks | ahah | 16:10 |
| desrt | anyway... all of this chatting has reminded me that i was going to solve a bug for you | 16:11 |
| desrt | and i should get back to that | 16:11 |
| desrt | but, as with all things, ... it won't be easy :p | 16:11 |
| desrt | (the race between installing a new desktop file and file monitors being slow) | 16:12 |
| didrocks | desrt: well, no urgency yet, I have the workaround :) | 16:12 |
| didrocks | desrt: but would be nice to get it right, indeed! | 16:12 |
| didrocks | did you find any clever idea on it? | 16:13 |
| desrt | didrocks: i dreamed up an elaborate system for solving this problem | 16:13 |
| didrocks | "elaborate" ;) | 16:13 |
| didrocks | and "system" | 16:13 |
| didrocks | so 10 minutes hack? :) | 16:13 |
| desrt | hah | 16:13 |
| desrt | i gotta land this massive filemonitor branch first | 16:13 |
| desrt | then it will be a "10 minute hack" ;) | 16:13 |
| desrt | basically, providing a mechanism for file monitors to reach into the backend and say "run your queue RIGHT NOW" | 16:14 |
| desrt | and then check if any events are pending on themselves | 16:14 |
| didrocks | oh, so this will just flush the queue | 16:14 |
| desrt | well | 16:14 |
| didrocks | not afraid of massive things being queued at that moment? | 16:14 |
| desrt | it will poll the kernel too | 16:14 |
| desrt | which is part of my concern..... | 16:15 |
| didrocks | yeah, I see :/ | 16:15 |
| desrt | the way desktop directories work, this could be annoying | 16:15 |
| Sweet5hark | Your build system is doing madness, should you a/ fix one problem and hope it does sane things elsewhere b/not use a build system everyone know to be brittle, whose only feature is fixing portability issues with 1990ies unixes, which your software doesnt run on and never will? Discuss: https://harald.hoyer.xyz/2015/03/05/libtool-getting-rid-of-180000-sed-forks/ | 16:15 |
| desrt | since we have a file monitor at each level -- ~/.local/share, /usr/local/share, /usr/share, the config dirs, any extra XDG_DATA_DIRS, etc. | 16:15 |
| desrt | so that would be like 6 poll() calls maybe | 16:15 |
| didrocks | yeah, it can be expensive polling | 16:15 |
| desrt | well, the call would be really really fast, i'm sure | 16:16 |
| desrt | but it's still 6 syscalls, 5 of which are pointless | 16:16 |
| didrocks | indeed | 16:16 |
| desrt | so figuring out some way to consolidate that ..... | 16:16 |
| didrocks | at least, happy that I gave you a challenging use case! | 16:16 |
| desrt | it also interacts badly with the case where the dir is not created yet | 16:16 |
| desrt | :) | 16:17 |
| desrt | this stuff will be generally useful eventually | 16:17 |
| desrt | will be nice to be able to query file monitors for this info in the generic sense | 16:17 |
| desrt | like for the /proc/mounts monitor... would be really useful to know if a change event was pending or not | 16:17 |
| didrocks | right, so it can be quite generically reused that way | 16:18 |
| === Guest63892 is now known as mfisch | ||
| andyrock | MacSlow, Trevinho sorry I was at class | 16:39 |
| andyrock | do you still need my help? | 16:39 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, np | 16:39 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, well I just wanted to ask for your folks view on an issue I'm seeing here... | 16:39 |
| andyrock | sure I can reproduce it? | 16:40 |
| andyrock | *how | 16:40 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, from the looks of it, it's only restricted to nvidia (binary-blob) based ssystems... | 16:40 |
| andyrock | i got one | 16:40 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, ^^^ | 16:40 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, when ever I start qmlscene on the desktop to view a .qml file... QtCreator no longer updates window-contents and the compiz/unity app-switcher gets really sluggish | 16:41 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, I'm on vivid with the latest updates pulled (yesterday evening) | 16:41 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, this issue does not happen on my all-intel laptop | 16:41 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, mmm you started getting it with last update? | 16:41 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, I can't easily test it against the nouveau-driver right now | 16:42 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, yeah... I recognized this late yesterday | 16:42 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, also can you pastebine a .qml file so I can test it? | 16:42 |
| andyrock | or a normal one is just fine? | 16:42 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, any one will do | 16:42 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, we pushed a fix for compiz yesterday | 16:45 |
| Laney | larsu: yo, someone just pointed out out that GTK_MESSAGE_OTHER GtkMessageDialogs have an image-missing icon on Ubuntu | 16:45 |
| Laney | http://paste.ubuntu.com/10541027/ | 16:45 |
| Laney | doesn't happen with vanilla gtk | 16:45 |
| Laney | do you think it could be caused by the 'restore traditional look' patch? | 16:45 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/10541037/ is a qml that will certainly trigger it | 16:47 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, it seems it's related to constant animations going on | 16:47 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, wait... you need the png that goes with it... | 16:48 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, http://macslow.org/foreground-particle.png http://macslow.org/background-particle.png | 16:49 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, i cannot reproduce it here | 17:06 |
| andyrock | would be helpful if you can try to downgrade compiz | 17:06 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, so my compiz is at 1:0.9.12.1+15.04.20150303-0ubuntu1 right now | 17:08 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, same here | 17:08 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, so to what version do I need to get back? | 17:09 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, just one before | 17:09 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, 1:0.9.12.1+15.04.20150227-0ubuntu1 I assume then | 17:10 |
| andyrock | yep | 17:10 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, assuemd that you had regalluary updated your system | 17:10 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, I seem to still have 1:0.9.12.1+15.04.20150213-0ubuntu1 1:0.9.12.1+15.04.20150227-0ubuntu1 1:0.9.12.1+15.04.20150303-0ubuntu1 in my /var/cache/apt/archives | 17:12 |
| andyrock | try one by one if you can | 17:12 |
| andyrock | yesterday we pushed a small fix that solved the black window nvidia issue | 17:13 |
| andyrock | but should not be releated | 17:13 |
| andyrock | but we got also another big fix for nvidia in the last few weeks | 17:13 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, just the compiz-package should be enough right? | 17:14 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, yep | 17:15 |
| andyrock | MacSlow, it should include compiz-plugins | 17:15 |
| andyrock | Trevinho, ^^^ | 17:15 |
| andyrock | can you confirm? | 17:15 |
| MacSlow | andyrock, hm... seems with compiz-plugins compiz-core and libdecoration I need to downgrade too... | 17:19 |
| * MacSlow wonders how much he fucked up his system by now | 17:20 | |
| andyrock | MacSlow, usually it easier to just build your own compiz :D | 17:20 |
| MacSlow | well I'm lazy at my eod :) | 17:21 |
| * MacSlow restarts... | 17:21 | |
| kaea | As a single user, how can I alter my username in a clean way (where is all places my user is connected to) or am I better off to just create a new user and give same permissions? (if so how do I know my current permissions etc) | 17:24 |
| Laney | larsu: http://paste.ubuntu.com/10541369/ ? | 17:26 |
| didrocks | eod -> see you guys! | 17:29 |
| === alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD | ||
| achiang | are unity webapps still a thing? more specifically, there's a webpage i like that plays music; would love to be able to control it from sound indicator. | 19:53 |
| dobey | achiang: they're sort of a thing. i don't know if unity8 has sound indicator integration though | 20:07 |
| dobey | but should work under unity7 still afaik | 20:07 |
| Laney | just tried lastfm and got an aptd crash when I asked for the webapp to be installed. :D | 20:10 |
| dobey | nice | 20:16 |
| Laney | can't report it because glib is out of date | 20:16 |
| * Laney gets a trace manually | 20:16 | |
| Laney | Traceback (most recent call last): | 20:17 |
| Laney | File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/aptdaemon/pkcompat.py", line 589, in _remove_from_connection_no_raise | 20:17 |
| Laney | self.pktrans.Destroy() | 20:17 |
| Laney | AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'Destroy' | 20:17 |
| Laney | helpful | 20:18 |
| === Zdra is now known as xclaesse | ||
| === greyback__ is now known as greyback | ||
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