/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/03/10/#ubuntu-desktop.txt

robert_ancellDoes anyone know why ubuntu-desktop recommends ttf-indic-fonts-core? It's not in the seed and reverse-depends doesn't seem to show any other package that might have pulled it in.01:36
qenghorobert_ancell: hrm, does your reverse-depends search see Recommends, or only Depends?02:10
robert_ancellqengho, reverse-depends does show recommends02:32
robert_ancellI've never normally had trouble finding a reverse dependency but this one has me scratching my head02:33
robert_ancellbrb02:33
=== duflu_ is now known as duflu
pittilarsu: you can still run it, it creates backup files05:46
pittilarsu: testing it would be nice, as that's the script I'm going to put into the package05:46
pittiGood morning05:52
larsupitti: good morning! I'll test it in a bit06:20
* larsu needs tea first06:20
didrocksgood morning06:43
larsubonjour didrocks06:43
didrockshey larsu, how is it going?06:44
larsudidrocks: good good, thanks! You?06:45
didrockslarsu: I'm great thanks! Another sunny day it seems :)06:45
larsuyep, here as well :)06:46
larsupitti: script works as advertised for me. Thanks for looking into this!06:56
* larsu will probably leave swap off for now. 8G ought to be enough memory for everyone...06:56
pittilarsu: cheers07:14
pittibonjour didrocks07:15
pittilarsu: indeed, I stopped using swap long ago; it's such a thing of the past...07:15
darkxsthey pitti. larsu didrocks07:16
larsuhey darkxst07:16
didrocksevening darkxst07:17
pittihey darkxst07:17
darkxstso the day after switching to systemd, I finally found the GNOME side of the silly upstart bug that has been plaguing us for the last year bug 138557207:18
ubot5bug 1385572 in gnome-session (Ubuntu) "gnome-session not shutting down cleanly" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/138557207:18
darkxstatleast our trusty users should be happy for a fix ;)07:28
seb128good morning desktopers08:19
=== tiheum_ is now known as tiheum
pittibonjour seb12808:50
seb128pitti, salut, comment ça va aujourd'hui ?08:50
pittiseb128: très bien, merci ! beaucoup de travailler avec systemd :)08:51
seb128pitti, félicitations pour le changement :-)08:51
pittiheh, merci !08:53
Laneyhello!09:07
Laneyforgot that my vps was going to be rebooted last night09:08
larsumorning Laney!09:09
seb128hey Laney09:09
seb128how are you?09:10
Laneyhey seb128 et larsu09:12
Laneydoing good, blue skies, tea, no scrollback!09:12
Laneyhow are you?09:13
larsuno scrollback!09:13
larsuI'm fine as well. sun, blue sky, tea09:13
larsu(alas, scrollback)09:14
seb128Laney, good a well, thanks!09:15
seb128though grey sky here09:15
seb128but coffee and no scrollback!09:15
pittihey Laney, good sunny morning!09:15
darkxsthey laney, seb128 can you look at bug 138557209:15
ubot5bug 1385572 in gnome-session (Ubuntu) "gnome-session not shutting down cleanly" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/138557209:15
darkxstseems the extensions issue may just be the tip of the iceberg, and infinite mainloops and what not are also occuring09:16
darkxstits a mix of upstream, ubuntu and upstart bugs, but that patch should fix all09:18
darkxst(it obviously doesn't fix the upstart bug, but does fix the side-effects of it)09:24
Laneydarkxst: do you know why we do this fail whale killing thing?09:26
Laneyyou're saying this codepath is somehow being hit in a normal shutdown?09:26
darkxstLaney, because ubuntu doesnt like the UI09:27
darkxstbut yes under upstart, things get pull down in the wrong order09:27
darkxstso the fail whale fires, but then gnome-session keeps on running09:27
darkxstin that case there is no X, and gnome-session starts try to respawn apps, causing further fail wails09:28
Laneyman09:28
Laneygood job we killed it09:28
Laneythat would look bad!09:28
darkxstbut that is the tip, gnome-session normally fires the fail whale dialog and then enters a mainloop waiting for that to kill it09:30
darkxstso in those cases with ubuntu patch gnome-session will never die09:30
darkxstthen the upstream bits are covered by http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=745944 and https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74570709:32
ubot5Gnome bug 745944 in general "manager: catch the fail whale on required app failure" [Normal,New]09:32
ubot5Gnome bug 745707 in gnome-session "gdm fails to start if gnome-session-wayland is not installed" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]09:32
seb128those bluetooth issues are annoying09:38
darkxstseb128, which bluetooth issues? bluez 5?09:45
seb128darkxst, no, my car failing to connect to my phone half the time for some reason09:46
seb128while the devices are paired and marked as trusted09:46
darkxstseb128, its a little hard to install Ubuntu on my iphone ;)09:48
seb128hehe09:48
seb128well I guess issue would be the same trying to pair your laptop09:48
darkxstseb128, never had an issue pairing iphone with laptop09:49
darkxstand I use that all the time09:50
darkxstit may be your stereo has a flakey bluetooth implementation09:51
seb128could be09:52
* mpt wonders why Firefox thinks Thunderbird is the appropriate app to open .deb files09:53
jpdsWhere did Will go.09:53
larsumpt: it's bound to file-roller by default. Alas, firefox doesn't use the xdg stuff but has its own list in preferences/applications09:55
seb128jpds, the one managing this team? in a train to London09:56
larsumpt: actually, it's correctly bound to software center for me (fresh install)09:56
seb128larsu, in the desktop or in firefox?09:56
larsuseb128: both09:56
jpdsseb128: We have 3G in this country.09:57
seb128firefox is weird, like it thinks gview should be the default text viewer09:57
mptlarsu, that list says “Debian package” is set to “Always ask”. Downloading a .deb always does ask, but opening it from the Downloads popup launches Thunderbird09:57
seb128jpds, it might be too flacky for IRC? he sent me an email from the train, so he has some datas09:57
* larsu tries09:57
larsumpt: not for me. Maybe you accidentally bound it to thunderbird in your profile, or have an old profile that had an error?09:58
larsumpt: what happens when you open it in nautilus?09:58
mptNautilus opens it in USC by default09:59
larsudoes the same happen in a fresh ff profile?09:59
mptThe dropdown menu in Firefox’s Preferences suggests “Use Ubuntu Software Center (default)”09:59
mpt(as an alternative to the current “Always ask”)10:00
mptBut the download dialog suggests, as an alternative to saving the file, “( ) Open with [ Thunderbird Mail (default) :^]”10:00
larsulol10:02
larsudoes nautilus suggest the same in “Open With…”?10:02
* larsu makes his quotes nice when talking to mpt10:02
mptNo, Nautilus suggests only Archive Manager as an alternative10:03
larsuI wonder where firefox got that from then...10:03
mptSearching Firefox’s about:config for “thunderbird” returns no results10:03
larsuabout:config doesn't contain the mime type bindings10:04
mptProbably the same place that it got the idea that it should hint text differently from the rest of the OS10:04
larsuya... firefox is not a good citizen10:04
Laneyanyone know about linux capabilities?10:17
Laneyseem to be able to open a file by relative but not absolute path when dropping caps10:18
Laneyah there's an EACCES along the way10:22
willcookeo/10:47
didrockshey willcooke10:51
larsuhi willcooke! How's it going?10:52
willcookeit's good :)10:55
willcookeGot some meetings in London today10:55
willcookeThe sun is shining10:55
willcookeVideo out on the n4 is fixed10:55
willcookeit's all good10:55
seb128hey willcooke10:56
didrockssun, London?10:56
willcookefor reals10:56
willcooke:)10:56
didrocksseb128: he's at the beach! :)10:56
seb128didrocks, looks like ;-)10:56
willcooke:D10:56
didrocksthat was the detail which betrayed you!10:56
didrocks:)10:56
willcookehaha10:56
willcookeMeting with JohnLea_ in a few mins, so I will see where we are with the compressed wallpaper and upload them today hopefully10:57
didrocksnice10:59
larsuochosi: just updated my ido mr if you want to take another look: https://code.launchpad.net/~larsu/ido/prelight-and-focus-scale/+merge/25229311:40
larsuthere's still some weird cases - like pushing down the slider and moving away from the menu item will leave it in pressed state11:40
larsuthat's a lot harder to fix though (and should be fairly uncommon)11:41
davmor2willcooke: stop saying it is sunny in London it breaks the weather app that defaults to rain for London ;)11:50
willcooke:D11:51
desrtsaluton, karaj samideanoj12:43
larsumorning desrt!12:44
larsuhow's life?12:44
desrtseems pretty good :)12:45
desrthow's death?12:45
larsudunno12:45
desrtwell, how's life, then? :)12:46
larsuvery good :)12:46
* desrt upgrades to 'very good' as well, on account of the full french press sitting in front of him, waiting to be plunged12:47
larsuenjoy!12:47
desrtmade good progress on the mekaro plans last night at the meeting12:48
larsucool. when is it?12:48
desrtbut i'm starting to get to that "i'm never organising a conference again" feeling, again12:49
desrtmay2412:49
seb128hey desrt12:49
desrtseb128: hi seb :D12:49
larsudesrt: what about NUR?12:49
larsu:P12:49
desrtlarsu: ...and toronto summit :p12:49
larsuthat's a thing now?12:49
* larsu needs to get on the list12:49
desrti dunno if it's a thing or not, but it's been suggested by a few people that it ought to be a thing12:50
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch
larsua few people, eh?12:50
larsuare "a few" equal to one and is his name desrt?12:51
desrtno12:51
desrti also count my split personalities ;)12:51
seb128Laney, larsu, opinion on bug #1430307?12:51
ubot5bug 1430307 in gtk+3.0 (Ubuntu) "Deprecation warning should be turned off for release" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143030712:51
larsuseb128: yes, I agree that we should turn it off for the release12:52
larsudesrt might think otherwise12:52
desrti already agreed to that logic12:52
desrtalthough i agreed to it "only for one cycle", and here we are, 6 months later ...12:53
larsuya12:53
seb128larsu, thanks12:53
desrtbut ya...12:53
seb128were those the same warnings?12:53
larsuand there's a point to be made for developers that want to see deprecation warnings for their apps on a stable ubuntu12:53
desrtthey're the same type of warnings12:53
seb128or do we clean out the set from the previous cycle and repeat the logic on new ones?12:53
desrtbut different specific instances of them12:53
desrtso yes -- things improved from last cycle12:54
desrtbut then gtk moved the bar again :)12:54
larsuI guess more things got deprecated?12:54
seb128right12:54
seb128my point is that if those are new things it's fair to delay from one cycle12:54
Laneygood old only one cycle12:54
seb128if that's the same set and we didn't act on it, that's a different topic12:54
desrtheh12:54
desrtwe could have PARAM_DEPRECATED and PARAM_SERIOUSLY_DEPRECATED12:54
seb128lol12:54
desrtto tell the difference :)12:54
larsusome of those are definitely the same12:55
larsugsettings::schema has been deprecated for a while now12:55
larsuas has GtkAlignment::*12:55
desrtah... ya..12:55
larsuGtkSettings::gtk-menu-images12:55
desrtmy eye caught the ones that happened to be newer12:55
desrtbut you're right -- most of these are old12:55
larsuI think we ought to use this list as a TODO for beginning of next cycle12:55
larsudesrt: there12:56
larsu's newer ones as wel12:56
larsul12:56
larsubah, enter key is weirdly formed12:56
desrtwelcome to US :)12:56
seb128then we need to wonder if cleaning deprecations in e.g old gedit is a good use of our resources12:56
larsuseb128: update it!12:56
desrtare we shipping latest gedit?12:56
larsuwith a headerbar12:56
seb128larsu, weren't you working on that update? what happened? ;-)12:56
larsuI love that all conversations in this channel lead to the headerbar topic12:56
larsushould be a rule12:57
desrtif this is old gedit then i imagine the solution is to update it....12:57
seb128lol12:57
seb128there we go12:57
desrtseb128: most of my 'imagined solutions' involve the word 'update' :)12:57
larsuseb128: I was and it's pretty much done, but we couldn't decide on what to do with the toolbar12:57
seb128I'm so glad to be out of that business12:57
larsuspeaking of which, I have no clue where my patches for that are…12:57
desrtseb128: we miss you :p12:57
seb128haha12:57
desrtneed someone to have real passionate arguments with :)12:58
* larsu misses seb128 as well12:58
* seb128 hugs desrt & larsu12:58
larsuLaney. Do your part and hate headerbars. NOW12:58
Laneyalso this bug violate's larsu's rule about "should"12:58
larsuLaney: mpt's rule.12:58
Laneyheard it from you most recently :)12:58
desrt"Deprecation warnings are unsightly"12:58
Laneyown it sister12:58
* larsu owns it12:58
larsuI 'ope mpt doesn't mind12:59
desrtmdeslaur: we're talking about you :p12:59
mdeslaurdesrt: I know, I'm watching with some popcorn :)12:59
desrtmdeslaur: by mpt rules, the correct title for this bug is "Deprecation warnings are unsightly and useless" :)13:00
LaneyThe only thing I have to add over last cycle is that now I feel a bit duped by the arguments given then13:00
desrtmdeslaur: as a lowly reporter, who are you to assume what is the correct solution to that problem?13:00
mdeslaurdesrt: lol :)13:00
larsuhe's not joking…13:00
mdeslaurdesrt: simple. I care about our users. :)13:00
Laneythose damn gtk developers and their hate for users13:01
larsumdeslaur: we're not disputing that. The right solution might be different from what the title suggests, though13:01
mdeslaurthe right solution is to fix all the gtk apps13:01
desrtmdeslaur: mpt has a rule that you should strictly stick to specifying a summary of the problem -- never suggest a solution13:01
desrtand he uses "should" as the best indicator that you're violating the rule13:02
larsumdeslaur: not at this stage in the cycle13:02
larsudesrt: of course one can suggest solutions13:02
mdeslaurlarsu: exactly :) or in any cycle for that matter, as the bar keeps getting pushed back.13:02
desrtjust not in the summary13:02
seb128the issue is that fixing deprecation warnings is a low priority item, since those are mostly non user impacting issues13:02
seb128such they tend to not go high enough in our todolist to ever be acted on13:03
mdeslaurdesrt: ok, I'll change the summary to "gtk sucks."13:03
desrtmdeslaur: much better :D13:03
mdeslaurdesrt: and you can figure out what the best solution to that is :)13:03
larsuclosed as "opinion" :P13:03
mdeslaurlol13:04
desrtmdeslaur: anyway... just explaining what we were talking about with the 'mpt rule'.  clearly following it is optional :p13:04
Laneyhow can I get std{out,err} from a GTestDBus launched dbus daemon?13:04
larsunot13:04
* Laney doesn't understand why this thing isn't being activated13:04
larsualas13:04
mdeslaurdesrt: I see :)13:04
* Laney changes the subject :-)13:04
desrtLaney: missing service file?13:05
Laneyit's there13:05
Laneyand launching it outside of the test works13:05
Laneys/launching/activating/13:05
larsuyet another reason not to use gtestbus‽13:05
mdeslaurif we're not going to ship a new gedit, I can certainly fix the deprecation warnings in the old version13:05
* desrt makes a point of not understanding gtestbus13:06
mdeslaurI just don't want to do that if the new version gets uploaded in a week13:06
desrtmdeslaur: probably there are upstream patches you could cherry-pick to do exactly that13:06
Laneyit's quite convenient13:06
Laneydunno...13:06
larsuLaney: unless you want to get its stdout.13:06
Laneythey removed the toolbar...13:06
* larsu pats Laney on the back13:06
larsuI think we should go toolbarless tbh13:07
Laneylarsu: correct, you've got me there13:07
willcookesigh13:08
willcookestupid wifi13:08
seb128hey willcooke13:09
* Laney ragequits this project13:12
larsuLaney: do you have a glib checkout somewhere? surely patching it to pipe gtestbus' output somewhere should be fairly easy13:13
LaneyI ran it with a normal bus and there's some other failure lature on13:16
Laneyit's just chewing my time now13:17
larsuwhat is the project?13:17
Laneyfix gnome-keyring testsuite13:17
larsudesrt: [makes more sense here]13:21
desrtya.  now that we're back on this topic13:21
larsudesrt: if we update the ui because of deprecation warnings this will be the biggest yak shave ever13:22
desrtlarsu: that's not what's happening here13:22
larsuwith ramifications in the theme, gtk itself (getting window control spacing right), compiz, unity13:22
larsubreaking LIM13:22
desrtwe're deciding what to do about the deprecation warnings based on the question of if we want to update the UI or not13:23
desrtit only prioritises the asking of the question -- does not suggest an outcome13:23
ochosilarsu: thanks, that looks very promising! i have a busy day today, but i'll test and get back to you tomorrow if that's ok13:23
larsuwe can't update because design doesn't care about the desktop right now and Trevinho doesn't care about csd13:23
larsunow might be the worst of all times to switch to headerbar uis13:23
Trevinholarsu: I *do* care...13:23
Trevinholarsu: it's just that it's a mess on compiz13:23
Trevinholarsu: I've been spending days on that13:24
larsuTrevinho: ya, I know. I worded that a bit strong13:24
larsu(sorry(13:24
larsu()13:24
larsu))13:24
Trevinholarsu: np13:24
larsuTrevinho: I'm just making a case that we can't update to header bars now just to get rid of some deprecation warnings13:25
Laneywho suggested that?13:25
* Laney biab, summoned to lunch13:25
Trevinholarsu: I'm trying to get stuff working, but it's not easy as every single compiz plugin uses geometries in a way that we can't just remove the HB size from that...13:25
larsuLaney: desrt13:26
larsuLaney: bon apetit!13:26
larsuTrevinho: maybe it's not worth it, then?13:26
Trevinholarsu: I'm trying to to find a way to avoid it, ub there are tons of corner cases13:27
=== alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g
seb128desrt, larsu, the issue there (or part of it) is also that we throw those warnings to users and it benefits little to do that, they should display on dev mode/for the people who work on the code and care13:37
desrtseb128: chatting about this in general in #gnome-hackers now - brasero maintainer is there to13:38
desrt+o13:38
desrtthe argument is that 'normal users' aren't starting apps from the terminal13:38
seb128define what a normal user is13:38
seb128it's not because you are a programmer and use gedit that you care about debugging gedit/fixing it's deprecations13:38
seb128its13:38
desrtgedit is definitely a special case -- people run that shit from the terminal all the time13:40
desrtbrasero and gnote -- i can't imagine why13:40
seb128right13:40
seb128but usually the issue get raised by gedit users13:40
desrtsome people use gedit as EDITOR for git commits....13:40
seb128correct ;-)13:41
larsudesrt: people often get asked to start from a terminal to debug a problem though13:41
desrtand fittingly, the issue is already fixed in gedit13:41
seb128replace gedit by $editor13:42
seb128sublime if you want13:42
larsuhm? what does that help?13:42
seb128very few third party app writers do follow unstable gtk and focus on cleaning on dev warnings13:42
larsuoh indeed13:42
desrtseb128: well, that's sort of my argument13:42
seb128larsu, it's just that those warnings are going to show for users of "normal apps"13:42
larsuya13:42
desrtlots of 3rd party devs are probably using ubuntu to develop13:42
desrtand not following git13:42
desrtso if we disable the warnings for everything, in ubuntu, then nothing will ever get fixed13:43
seb128well, our gtk displays those deprecations warnings13:43
seb128which is the topic13:43
dobeyseb128: hey, would you care to sponsor a new intltool upload for me? https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/vivid/intltool/release-0-51-0/+merge/25223513:43
seb128dobey, can do, is that including features? (we are in feature freeze)13:43
seb128desrt, well, we should maybe display warnings only if some env is set and teach devs to set debug mode13:44
dobeyseb128: i suppose technically "support for qt designer ui files" is a feature.13:44
desrti have a better idea13:44
seb128dobey, yeah, can you ask for a ffe?13:44
desrtseb128: see #gnome-hackers13:44
desrtlet's solve this once and for all13:45
seb128desrt, that solution stops working with app isolation, clicks/etc13:45
desrtthat's for us to fix with additional tweaks13:46
dobeyseb128: i sub'd ubuntu-release to https://bugs.launchpad.net/intltool/+bug/95334213:49
ubot5Ubuntu bug 953342 in intltool (Ubuntu) "Add support for Qt Designer UI files" [Medium,Triaged]13:49
seb128dobey, thanks13:49
seb128dobey, I've added ffe to the title and changed the ubuntu part to "New" which I think is needed for them to see it properly classified as "needs to be reviewed"13:50
dobeyok thanks13:51
Sweet5harkseb128: any idea why 4.2.8/trusty is still struck in unapproved in the queue?15:02
seb128Sweet5hark, no, ask the sru team? I guess just lack of reviewers for SRUs15:03
seb128Sweet5hark, also things have been frozen for the .215:03
Sweet5harkseb128: k. any specific victim I should poke about that? or just generic team on launchpad?15:04
Sweet5harkseb128: ah yeah.15:04
dobeySweet5hark: ubuntu-sru is the lp team15:04
=== jorge is now known as jcastro
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|afk
seb128oh, it's meeting o'clock15:30
seb128attente_, desrt, dgadomski, didrocks, Laney, larsu, qengho, Sweet5hark1, tkamppeter, hey15:30
Sweet5harkheya15:30
Sweet5harkfrist post!15:31
seb128is everyone sleeping? ;-)15:32
attente_hi15:32
* larsu wakes up15:32
didrockshey :p15:32
seb128ok, let's get started15:33
seb128#startmeeting15:33
meetingologyMeeting started Tue Mar 10 15:33:42 2015 UTC.  The chair is seb128. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.15:33
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick15:33
seb128#topic attente_15:33
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: attente_
seb128attente_, hey15:33
attente_not much, started trying to get ibus working under mir, but having way less luck than with fcitx15:34
seb128what are the issues?15:34
seb128it might be worth waiting for multiple surface support to land15:34
seb128in case that's part of what blocks it?15:34
attente_i don't think that's the blocker for this15:34
attente_because the proving server still allows multiple surfaces to appear, even though only one can get the focus15:34
seb128k15:35
attente_but ibus-daemon crashes as soon as i switch into the mir proving server15:35
seb128urg15:35
seb128do you know if it works under wayland/what is GNOME doig there?15:36
attente_no idea15:36
attente_going to keep looking at it this week while waiting for the fcitx reviews15:37
seb128k15:37
seb128might be a good idea to start to check there15:37
attente_sure, thanks for the hint seb128 :)15:38
seb128I'm sure unsure what our plans are for input methods under unity8 and if it's worth spending much efforts on that yet15:38
seb128but thanks for looking at it/investigating ;-)15:38
seb128thanks attente_15:38
seb128oh, btw I just saw yesterday that your fcitx ffe got acked by Laney15:38
seb128I'm trying to put a landing for that today15:38
attente_cool15:38
seb128ok, let's move on to the next one15:39
seb128#topic desrt15:39
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: desrt
seb128desrt, hey15:39
desrthi!15:39
desrtas planned, i spent a lot of time rewriting the file monitor branch, finding bugs, fixing them, etc.  it's working now.  i just pushed that, am i am looking for reviewers :)15:39
desrtthat's all, really15:40
* Laney pokes seb128 15:41
seb128thanks desrt15:41
seb128(& Laney)15:42
didrocksLaney: worked! :)15:42
Laney\o/15:42
seb128#topic dgadomski15:42
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: dgadomski
dgadomskihey15:42
seb128dgadomski, hey15:42
dgadomskiI'm afraid nothing from me this week15:42
dgadomskithanks15:42
seb128ok, no worry15:42
seb128thanks dgadomski15:42
seb128(still need to try to comment on your email on the desktop list to see if I can help getting the discussion going)15:43
seb128#topic didrocks15:43
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: didrocks
seb128didrocks, hey15:43
didrockshey!15:43
didrockssystemd:15:43
didrocks* debugged and discussed issue on bug #1392637. It turned out to clash with a way deeper issue in systemd around tmpfs being randomly triggered via disabled tmp.mount. We have an idea in debian on how to workaround it and bringed that up to the upstream ML. Unfortunately, seems there is no upstream interest in that issue.15:43
ubot5bug 1392637 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Cannot boot with newly installed systemd if /tmp/ is filled with files" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139263715:43
didrocks* proposed a fix for bug #1411140 in a generic manner due to overlayfs particularities. Waiting for upstream review.15:43
ubot5bug 1411140 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-machine-id-commit.service fails on live system" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/141114015:43
didrocks* added a fix for bug #1429171 (basically checking for plymouth pid file to lower the warning level if plymouth isn't started)15:43
ubot5bug 1429171 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-fsckd[232]: Couldn't connect to plymouth: Connection refused" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/142917115:43
didrocks* enhanced vm and vm iso scripts based on Martin's work to be able to spawn easily qemu's instance with network access and ssh forwarding (persistent and non persistent)15:43
didrocks* did some NFS tests with various configurations in vms to test Martin's NFS work15:43
didrocksMisc:15:43
didrocks* patch piloting15:43
didrocks* reviewed media-hub and telepathy-qt5 MIRs, some pending questions…15:43
didrocks.15:43
seb128didrocks, congrats on getting systemd switched to default15:44
seb128(& to pitti as well)15:44
larsuindeed!15:44
didrockswell, pitti was the man :)15:44
seb128you did your share15:44
didrocksI just helped a little bit15:44
Sweet5harkindeed, that was awesome work it seems!15:45
seb128:-)15:45
didrocksthanks nevertheless :)15:45
pittidon't believe didrocks, he helped a lot!15:45
* pitti hugs you all15:45
* didrocks hugs back15:45
seb128pitti, yeah, don't worry, we are not going to let him not get his share of credits ;-)15:45
* seb128 hugs back15:45
Sweet5harkgrouphug!15:45
seb128hehe15:45
seb128ok, Laney was late but let's see if he has an update ready at least :p15:45
seb128#topic Laney15:46
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: Laney
seb128Laney, hey ;-)15:46
Laneyjust you wait15:46
Laneyyou're in for a treat15:46
Laney• Cherrz-pick gtk2 patches to fix crash in spotifz & other stuff (related to the other cherrz-pick), then upload 2.24.27 which contains these fixes anzwaz.15:46
Laney• glib 2.43.91, glib-networking 2.43.91, glib 2.42.2 (utopic), glib-networking 2.42.2 (utopic), libsoup2.4 2.49.91, gtksourceview3 3.14.3, gnome-kezring 3.15.90, evince 3.14.215:46
Laney• Trz to fix gnome-kezring's testsuite which is currentlz allowed to fail, give up (for now) after the nth fix revealed more problems15:46
Laney• Some gtk3 fixes: let CSD buttons be stzled (add a class), don't show a bogus image-missing icon in OTHER GtkMessageDialogs15:46
Laney• Some chats about a platform-api/indicator-location bug which was making it crash on startup everz time for unitz7 users15:46
Laney• Trz to get desktop image builds working, blocking on a MIR for a UITK upload which caused a component mismatch :(15:46
Laney∘ One of the requirements is to get the testsuite working, so poke at that15:46
Laney• FFe reviews etc15:46
Laney15:46
larsuthat's funnz15:46
seb128lol15:46
desrti think he's meant to say "zou're in for a treat"15:47
Laneyi made myself laugh at least15:47
Laneyand that's what really matters15:47
didrockszeah! ;)15:47
larsuLanez: zou made me laugh as well15:47
seb128made me laugh as well :-)15:47
larsumight be faster if people who didn't laugh speak up now15:48
Sweet5harkare you making fun of ze germans and their pronounciation?!?15:48
seb128thanks Laney15:48
desrtSweet5hark: making fun of laru's new keyboard15:48
larsuSweet5hark: making fun of me :/15:48
pittiLaney: did you break your keyboard layout again‽15:48
* larsu is on en_US15:48
desrtSweet5hark: he finally made the jump to US layout and he's been mixing y/z all day15:48
Sweet5harklarsu: alright then ;)15:48
seb128Sweet5hark, 'ow would you dare? no 'ate 'ere!15:48
Laneynext step dvorak15:48
larsuhaha15:48
Sweet5harklol15:48
seb128:-)15:48
Sweet5harklarsu: good choice though15:49
desrtat least dvorak doesn't lead you into a false sense of familiarity15:49
larsuSweet5hark: ya, much better for programming15:49
seb128ok, next is larsu, let's see if he manages to pull an update out despite the new keyboard15:49
seb128#topic larsu15:49
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: larsu
seb128larsu, hey :-)15:49
desrtSweet5hark: we just have to convince didrocks next :)15:49
larsuhey!15:49
larsusome bluez5 related stuff, then we decided to postpone - I guess?15:49
larsuthen finally got into theming again \o/15:50
seb128we decided to get it ready in a ppa15:50
seb128because if we decide to postpone it's not going to happen again15:50
didrocksright15:50
seb128and we want to be ready for next cycle start15:50
larsuwell, it's there to be uploaded if someone wants to15:50
didrocksbetter to be ready in day 0 when next release open15:50
seb128great15:50
seb128let's do that after the meeting15:50
didrocksyeah, I can give a hand if needed as well15:50
larsutheming: headerbars look very unity now, save for some spacing issues that are hard to resolve: http://i.imgur.com/QxMeEmn.png15:51
seb128\o/15:51
larsualso some smaller issues, like white radio marks in menus under Radiance15:51
desrtlarsu: that looks pretty nice15:51
larsufixed prelighting the volume slider in ido15:51
seb128we should do a theme landing once you are happy with your changes15:51
larsuseb128: I won't be until the spacing is right15:51
desrtlarsu: except for the obvious unbalance... but what can you do?15:51
larsudesrt: this is all css btw (except for the foreground icony part)15:52
larsuwhich I drew (copied) myself!15:52
seb128larsu, it's still better than what we currently have, so if spacing is hard maybe let's land that and iterate later?15:52
larsuseb128: ya. requires gtk patches15:52
larsunon-trivial ones if we want to do it right15:52
larsualso, Adwaita patches..15:52
larsuand every other theme15:52
larsu(if we want to do it right(15:52
larsubah. ))15:53
seb128good luck with that15:53
larsualso had a short week and a new computer (thanks again pitti for looking into my swap issue)15:53
Laneyright is mighty!15:53
larsuah one more thing: lots of discussion about notifications again15:54
larsudon't know if you saw that android-to-gnome-desktop bridge thing that pbor and nacho wrote15:54
larsu(was on planet gnome(15:54
larsu))15:54
larsunot sure if this is something we'd want as well, but they asked us about unity support15:55
seb128yeah, discussed it with didrocks the other day15:55
larsualso, message dialogs as fallbacks for notify-osd break rishi's gnome-terminal command-finished notification awesomeness15:55
seb128do you know why they made an android app rather than using the bluetooth standard thing?15:55
larsuwhich is why I didn't push further on that15:55
=== alan_g|afk is now known as alan_g
desrtlarsu: i read on the bug that they're pinging bash for upstream changes... how is that process going?15:56
larsuseb128: something about the bt notfication profile not supporting anything really15:56
desrtlarsu: i have some bash upstream changes in mind myself, wrt. focus-stealing-prevention... might be nice to keep the channel open there15:56
larsudesrt: in process iirc15:56
seb128larsu, but yeah, having that working on Unity would be nice15:56
larsuI15:56
larsuI'm not talking to them, g-t maintainers are15:56
desrthaving bash know that pressing <enter> in VTE requires a special negotiation would be pretty cool15:57
larsuanyhow - I was thinking about removing the dialog fallback in notify-osd, but mpt doesn't like that15:57
larsu... and he has arguments15:57
desrtcan we just convert the actions into snap decision actions?15:57
larsuwe don't have those on the desktop15:58
desrtah15:58
desrtthat's a good reason :)15:58
larsualso, we do application activation differently15:58
larsuwell, I don't know how we do it15:58
larsuor will do it, rather15:58
desrtonce we're on systemd, i can only assume that it will be the same again...15:58
larsusigh15:58
desrtold story, that.15:58
* larsu reminds himself to think result-oriented and is happy again15:59
larsuanyway, all from me. thanks.15:59
seb128thanks larsu15:59
seb128#topic qengho15:59
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: qengho
seb128qengho, hey15:59
qenghoHey hey!16:00
qengho- Released Cr 41. Fixes some pixel-density problems, though causes much smaller problems. Apport & autopkgtest better. Simplified build.16:00
qengho- todo: Must figure out X resource DPI (ugh Gtk2) and dconf scale-factor precedence, OR some sweet spot.16:00
qengho- todo: Reconsider compiling in Neon for ARM and test for capability at runtime.16:00
qenghoEOF16:00
seb128qengho, thanks16:00
seb128any news from the bugs you are trying to get info for?16:01
qenghoseb128: Not yet. With this version, I can add bugpatterns and start to organize reports.16:01
seb128k16:01
seb128thanks qengho16:02
seb128#topic Sweet5hark16:02
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: Sweet5hark
seb128Sweet5hark, hey16:02
Sweet5hark- 4.4.1 in vivid now -- autopackage tests looking all good too: thanks seb128 for sponsoring16:02
Sweet5hark- finished a ppc64el build of LibreOffice \o/ (not ready for vivid/main though yet)16:02
Sweet5hark- bugzilla grinding through 4.4 regressions -- looks ok in general from 10000 fet16:02
Sweet5hark- GSOC, leadership, Hackfest orga and other stuff upstream16:02
Sweet5hark- Writer core refactoring (pitti failed to break stuff with the systemd migration, here is my attempt)16:02
Sweet5hark- next week: continue refactoring, likely some more GSOC, maybe look into LibreOffice on snappy (or rather: see what we are still missing there to make it happen)16:02
Sweet5harkEOF16:02
Sweet5harks/fet/feet/ that is16:02
seb128Sweet5hark, thanks16:02
seb128is 4.4.1 the version we plan to ship with vivid?16:03
Sweet5harkseb128: well, 4.4.2 is rather late and this version looks okish already. so unless there are any emergencies ...16:03
seb128k, good16:04
seb128thanks Sweet5hark16:04
seb128#topic tkamppeter16:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: tkamppeter
seb128tkamppeter, hey16:04
ricotzSweet5hark, hey, long lasting regressions are a real problem imho :\16:04
seb128tkamppeter, not there?16:05
seb128ok, let's move on and come back to tkamppeter later if he shows up16:05
seb128#topic seb12816:06
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: seb128
seb128ok, my turn16:06
seb128• spent some time working on u-s-d not scaling correctly the wallpaper on hidpi, wrote a smaller testcase using gnome-desktop, got a working change but unsure if that's the correct way to fix it yet16:06
seb128• filed some more bugs about the experience with the uitk&click store after getting a click published (including ssh to the device not working when gnome-keyring is used, still need to debug that)16:06
seb128• looked at why the ubuntu phones are listed as type Computer over bluetooth, the class is defined in the configuration which comes from the package, unsure how to change it by device, filed a bug with some details16:06
seb128• sponsoring (libreoffice)16:06
seb128• ubuntus-system-setting16:06
seb128∘ looked at the "no update available" label not being correctly centered in the page16:06
seb128∘ worked on several more bluetooth issues on the phone, since I start understanding that code trying to help getting it working better16:06
seb128∘ backported a translation fix16:06
seb128</week>16:06
seb128ok, next16:07
seb128#topic happyaron16:07
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: happyaron
seb128happyaron, hey, there?16:07
seb128or not...16:07
seb128#topic FJKong16:07
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: FJKong
FJKonghey16:07
seb128FJKong, what about you? ;-)16:07
FJKongI am here16:07
FJKong* https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-settings/+bug/141386516:07
FJKongfixed, testing patch, now waiting for review16:07
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1413865 in Ubuntu Kylin "No default setting for "When power is critically low" in Power settings" [Medium,Confirmed]16:07
FJKong* got feedback form some sogou Input method: fcitx randomly 100%, spend some time debuging this problem and give him some advice16:08
FJKong* developing Dash pinyin research16:08
FJKong  ** convert from Chinese to pinyin [done]16:08
FJKong  ** index Directory and save result [done]16:08
FJKong* have a discuss wih attente_ about Mir and fcitx16:08
FJKongEOF16:08
seb128FJKong, thanks16:08
FJKong:)16:08
seb128oh, forgot mlankhorst?16:08
seb128#topic mlankhorst16:08
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: mlankhorst
seb128mlankhorst, hey16:08
seb128no mlankhorst?16:09
seb128#topic robert_ancell16:09
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: robert_ancell
seb128Worked on:16:10
seb128- TPM work16:10
seb128- lightdm 1.13.2, 1.12.3, 1.10.5 releases16:10
seb128- Test kernel fixes for Toshiba keys16:10
seb128- Fix FTBFS d-feet16:10
seb128Currently working on:16:10
seb128- TPM debconf/ubiquity support16:10
seb128- XMir handover16:10
seb128#topic TheMuso16:10
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: TheMuso
seb128* Examined software center related accessibility support after bug being filed, and software center appears accessible with Orca and keyboard navigation.16:10
seb128* More unity accessibility work, the scope and filter options need to be made accessible as well.16:10
seb128* Worked on fixing a brown paper bag bug WRT pulseaudio and flat volumes not being disabled.16:10
seb128#topic other topics?16:10
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: other topics?
seb128that should be it for the updates (or did I forgot anyone?)16:10
seb128do we have any other topic this week?16:10
tkamppeterhi16:11
seb128#topic tkamppeter16:11
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: tkamppeter
seb128tkamppeter, hey Till, you can post your update :-)16:11
tkamppeter- Booked flights and hotel for the OpenPrinting Summit at Apple in California (I finally got my visa!!)16:12
tkamppeter- Organizational stuff for the OpenPrinting Summit16:12
seb128oh, congrats on the visa!16:12
tkamppeter- Bugs.16:12
tkamppeterThanks16:12
seb128thanks tkamppeter16:13
seb128ok, on that good note I think it's a wrap for this week16:13
seb128thanks everyone16:13
seb128#endmeeting16:13
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: Welcome to the Desktop Team | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam | For support please join #ubuntu | Issues with GTK 3.14? Check here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/gtk-update-v
meetingologyMeeting ended Tue Mar 10 16:13:30 2015 UTC.16:13
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2015/ubuntu-desktop.2015-03-10-15.33.moin.txt16:13
Laneythanks!16:14
attente_thanks16:14
* Laney is here for the meeting16:14
seb128Laney, :-)16:14
didrocksthanks ;)16:15
seb128sorry about trolling you for not saying hi when we started ;-)16:15
seb128for*16:15
Laneyhaha16:16
Laneyno probs16:16
seb128didrocks, pitti, sil2100, do you know if there is a bug about our sdk env creation failing on trying to call initctl which is not found (likely a fallout of the systemd transition)16:44
seb128mvo, ^16:46
didrocksseb128: no opened bug against systemd as I see it16:46
seb128didrocks, it's not likely systemd's fault, not sure what though ... click?16:46
didrocksseb128: yeah, I would have expected to see a bug link to it16:47
didrocksbut should be click16:47
seb128popey, that was mentioned this morning on #ubuntu-app-devel do you know if anyone opened a bug?16:49
popeyseb128: I do not.16:49
seb128popey, thanks anyway16:50
seb128didrocks, pitti, is there a tag for systemd-init-as-default issues?16:50
popeyhappy to file one16:50
seb128popey, somebody else was mentioning it, please one of you file one ;-)16:50
popeykk16:51
didrocksseb128: systemd-boot16:52
seb128didrocks, thanks16:52
* seb128 tags bug #143010916:52
ubot5bug 1430109 in open-vm-tools (Ubuntu) "vmtoolsd does not start automatically after reboot with systemd" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143010916:52
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD
mvo_seb128: thanks for the branch, I check it out tomorrow morning18:06
seb128mvo_, thanks18:07
seb128mvo_, it should be trivial18:07
seb128mvo_, do you usually use silos? I can already put it in one if that's the case18:07
mvo_seb128: yeah, I use silos, so go for it18:12
seb128mvo_, thanks18:12
mvo_seb128: but yeah, I think its not the end of the world if its broken until tomorrow18:12
mvo_:)18:12
seb128mvo_, indeed not, I can let it for you to handle tomorrow if you want18:12
seb128in fact I might have to do that, launchpad code seems to not respond atm18:12
jcastroanyone getting high CPU usage with compiz on intel/vivid?18:29
desrtSweet5hark: so libreoffice has this really annoying feature where if, for some reason, it can't find a dictionary, it just tells me that the entire document contains no spelling mistakes18:30
larsudesrt: perfect!18:31
ali1234surely it's either that or telling you every single word is wrong?18:33
desrti'd prefer maybe "you don't have dictionaries installed so i can't do spellcheck"18:34
desrti'm not talking about the red underline thing.  i'm talking about when you actually pick "check spelling" from the menu18:35
desrtall it says is "spell check is complete"18:35
seb128jcastro, I think Macslow or someone discussed that with Trevinho the other day18:38
jcastrooh ok, sounds like the right people know then18:38
jcastroit's virtually impossible to do a search for high cpu and compiz and get any meaningful report18:38
Trevinhojcastro, seb128: it was mostly related to qmlscene, not really a full slodown18:39
Trevinhomh18:39
seb128jcastro, are you sure you are not on software rendering?18:39
jcastrohow can I confirm?18:39
Trevinhojcastro:  /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test -p18:40
jcastrooh wow, I am on software rendering, no idea how that happened18:40
Trevinhoplus, no blurred dash...18:40
Trevinhowow...18:41
jcastroshould I force XNA on in a xorg.conf?18:43
jcastroor sna? whichever the hotness is?18:43
Trevinhojcastro: these should be for sw rendering I think...18:43
Trevinhojcastro: it's mostly something more related to xorg not loading proper libraries...18:44
Trevinhojcastro: have a look to Xorg.0.log18:44
willcookepmcgowan pinged about this bug today:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/compiz/+bug/129338418:46
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1293384 in compiz (Ubuntu) "Compiz CPU usage dramatically increased in Ubuntu 14.04" [Medium,Triaged]18:46
willcookesounds like lots of people have hit something related18:47
jcastroyeah except I figured, oh well might as well go to vivid instead, heh18:47
jcastrobummer, was hoping forcing SNA to on would help18:54
jcastroTrevinho, ok I at least know what the problem is, I'll continue to investigate, thanks18:54
seb128jcastro, what distro serie do you use?18:57
seb128brb18:58
mdeslaurtedg: I can haz review? https://code.launchpad.net/~mdeslaur/indicator-power/indicator-power/+merge/25250019:48
tedgmdeslaur, Makes sense, but I'm going to punt to charles as he wrote that code to be sure.19:52
tedgLong bug discussion there.19:52
mdeslaurtedg: cool, thanks19:52
mdeslaurtedg: yeah, everyone has an opinion on the matter...I stuck to mpt's order, which makes sense to me (ie: I want to know when my battery is fully charged more than my mouse which lasts months...)19:53
mdeslauronce my battery is charged, I don't care anymore, so it switches over to the mouse19:53
tedgmdeslaur, I love the guy talking to mpt about how he can't figure out user's needs :-)19:54
mdeslaurtedg: yes :)19:55
=== greyback__ is now known as greyback
charlesmdeslaur, woo, thanks for the MP :-)20:35
desrtmdeslaur, mpt: i don't like the lack of attention paid here to flaky/wrong devices/drivers20:37
desrtit seems that there are some amount of people in this bug who are impacted by false reports from their wireless mouse and they'd rather just ignore the issue and get on with their lives rather than explore the root cause of the problem20:37
larsudesrt: I have the feeling the real issue here is that people expect that icon to always be about their laptop battery20:39
mdeslaurdesrt: I'm not sure what you mean20:40
desrtmdeslaur: it seems that some people have mice that report that they are perpetually on the verge of death20:40
desrtcausing them to be shown higher in the menu than the laptop battery, always20:40
mdeslaurdesrt: I have one of those mice, hence I opened the bug20:40
desrtdoes yours have a time estimation?20:40
mdeslaurdesrt: no20:41
desrtothers may20:41
mdeslaurdesrt: yes, my patch handles that gracefully20:41
desrtso if my mouse is always reporting that it has 1 minute of life left and my laptop has 5 hours, which is shown in the panel?20:41
mdeslaurif your battery is 100%, your mouse. If your battery is charging or discharging, your battery20:42
mdeslaurdesrt: oh wait, a mouse that says 1 minute left?20:42
desrtthat is not apparent from the comment at the top of the file20:42
desrtyes20:42
mdeslaurdesrt: is that an actual device?20:42
desrtmdeslaur: i think a lot of the people in this bug are specifically complaining that they own such faulty devices20:43
desrtwhich is why they're upset with the direction being taken20:43
desrteither that or they're just clueless and don't understand what you're talking about20:43
jcastrologitech unifying kb/mouse combos20:43
desrtbut nobody really asked for clarification20:43
jcastromy mouse always shows the battery as dying20:43
desrtjcastro: does it give an estimated time of death?20:44
mdeslaurjcastro: with a time estimation left?20:44
mdeslaurmy logitech says 55% with no time estimation20:44
jcastroit's like 1 minute or 1%, I'll take note next time20:44
mdeslaurjcastro: what do you mean next time, just click on it20:44
jcastrobecause not only is the pulldown widget always there ... you get notify-osd spam also20:44
jcastromdeslaur, I upgraded to vivid today and it's not there anymore20:44
mdeslaurwell, that's a different issue20:44
jcastroactually, I didn't notice that was fixed until just now20:45
desrtright... so another flaky driver that got fixed, probably :)20:45
jcastromdeslaur, mentioning osd was just a way to encourage you to also fix that too for a holistic experience20:45
mdeslaurjcastro: one step at a time :)20:45
desrtanyway... if this is a case of "your mouse will die in 10 minutes" vs. "your battery is discharging with 5 hours left" then i agree that it might make sense to show the mouse20:46
desrtbut i question how reliable such reports from the mouse can possibly be20:46
desrtwhich might make the entire feature useless20:46
desrtwhich means that the only case you engage that feature will be incorrectly20:47
desrt(ie: on people with driver/hardware bugs)20:47
mdeslaurwell, my mouse works20:47
mdeslaurdesrt: fix your driver :)20:47
larsuI'm pretty sure switching the meaning of that battery is always a bad idea...20:47
desrtmdeslaur: only because it doesn't report the time :)20:47
mdeslaurright :)20:47
* larsu wonders why we put that much work into it20:47
mdeslaurbut I do enjoy knowing when I need to change the battery in it20:47
mdeslaurmy mouse isn't a driver issue, it's a hardware issue20:48
desrtwell, i expect that to be the case20:48
desrtwhen something has a battery that lasts for as much as a year, i don't expect minute-accurate time estimation on the capacity20:48
mdeslaurwhen mine goes from 55% to 5% or something, that means I have a day left20:49
mdeslaurdesrt: so what are you proposing? never to show the mouse?20:49
desrti'm not sure what i'm proposing.  just pointing out a potential problem with the logic so far.20:50
desrti leave the proposing to mpt :)20:50
mdeslaurright, so you'd rather leave it broken than make an incremental improvement :P20:50
sarnoldone indicator per battery and no multiplexing? :)20:50
larsumdeslaur: what's wrong with always showing the main battery of the laptop?20:51
larsuit's much simpler and gets rid of all those problems20:51
mdeslaurlarsu: what about my UPS battery?20:51
mdeslaurlarsu: and my bluetooth headset batter?20:51
larsumdeslaur: show it in the menu and display a notification when it's low20:51
larsuswitchting devices is just confusing20:52
larsu*switching, even20:52
mdeslauryou want a notification that goes away to say your mouse battery is low?20:52
larsumdeslaur: needs to be a permanent notification20:52
larsuobviously...20:53
mdeslaurso you'd do all that just because some drivers are broken?20:53
desrtmdeslaur:  i just wrote a summary of my argument in the bug20:53
desrtmdeslaur: larsu's argument is different than mine20:54
larsumdeslaur: no, I'd do that because having an icon in the panel mean different things depending on the battery state of devices I currently have plugged in is confusing20:54
larsupeople seem to expect that to be the laptop's battery20:54
desrtand in this case i expect 'some drivers' is probably 'pretty much all hardware'20:54
larsudesrt's argument doesn't even matter that much to me - I'd dislike our approach even if we had perfect drivers20:55
desrtno way a mouse is going to reliably report (to the hour, much less the minute) time remaining on a pair of double-As inside of it20:55
larsudesrt: ya. And nobody cares about that at all20:55
larsumuch less so much that you'd want it permanently in your panel20:55
desrtand i don't expect ones with built-in rechargable batteries to be _too_ much better20:56
mdeslaursorry, but when my mouse displays a battery warning, I need to change the battery within a day20:59
mdeslaurI think it has value20:59
larsumdeslaur: nobody argued that we should not show a warning at all21:00
mdeslaurin any case, I don't think redesigning the power indicator in that bug is appropriate21:00
larsuthat's not a redesign, just changing one bullet point on wiki.ubuntu.com/Power21:01
mdeslaurlarsu: right, so the laptop battery should have precedence21:01
desrtmdeslaur: thing is, with your patch, you're probably never going to see it unless you happen to have your laptop plugged in and not charging, right?21:01
larsumdeslaur: not only precedence, it should _always_ be shown21:01
desrtlarsu: as a separate indicator?21:02
larsudesrt: which one?21:02
larsuhere's my design:21:02
desrtoh.  nvm.21:02
larsu1. always show the laptop's battery state in the same place in the ui21:02
desrti'd put the laptop battery where it is, and leave it alone... then i'd add some visual hint separate from that for the mouse being near-dead21:02
larsu2. show battery state of aux devices in the dropdown menu21:02
mdeslaurdesrt: yes, you're right21:03
larsu3. if anything is in critical state, show a warning (notification + launcher icon in unity)21:03
desrtmdeslaur: so you're sort of getting further away from what you want anyway, then21:03
mdeslaurlarsu: why would I want an icon for a fully charged batter?21:03
sarnoldto confirm it is fully charged21:03
mdeslaurdesrt: not really...I want to see my laptop battery charging21:03
desrtlarsu: all batteries at 100% and not charging/discharging is a fairly good reason for showing nothing at all21:03
mdeslaursarnold: that's when the laptop battery icon goes away21:04
desrtmdeslaur: right.  true.21:04
larsumdeslaur: reassurance, mostly. We also show a wifi icon when it has very good signal strength21:04
desrtbut i mean it's taking you further away from your earlier statement "sorry, but when my mouse displays a battery warning, I need to change the battery within a day"21:04
sarnoldmdeslaur: whivch makes me wonder why the indicator died or did they move it in this release or..21:04
desrtsince you'll only manage to see that if you're using your laptop at home a lot21:04
mdeslaurdesrt: yes, but my laptop battery will last less than that21:04
larsudesrt: there's an option to hide the indicator when fully charged and plugged in21:04
desrtlarsu: right.  i think that's fair.21:04
sarnoldmdeslaur: also9, so you hav3e something to click on to see how much time is left21:04
desrtalso consistent with a desktop....21:05
larsuindeed21:05
desrti often use my laptop as if it were a desktop for an entire week21:05
desrtwired networking, plugged in to AC...21:05
larsufull volume?21:05
larsuoh, wait :P21:05
desrtyou're either making reference to the fact that the correct way to control volume is via your external amplifier or i don't understand you :p21:06
* larsu was joking21:06
mdeslaurdesrt: ok, since my mouse has no time remaining estimate, it's simply not possible to display any sort of warning for it21:09
desrtmdeslaur: unless you go along with what larsu and i just independently invented :p21:09
desrtie: some other separate indicator21:10
desrt'indicator' in the generic sense21:10
mdeslaurdesrt: at what point do you display that? 30%? 5%? 1%?21:10
desrtnot in the sense of a separate program or whatever... but just some other visual cue21:10
mdeslaurthere is no time remaining estimate, so you can't trigger a notification on it21:10
desrtmdeslaur: "when appropriate".  i have no idea :)21:10
mdeslaurdesrt: right, that's the problem21:11
desrti'm just pretty sure that comparing mouse batteries to laptop batteries will only bring pain21:11
desrtso someone needs to design something better21:11
mdeslaurright, which is why I'm not doing it anymore21:11
larsudesrt: it already does (see that bug) and has before...21:11
mdeslaurmy patch prefers laptop battery with known time remaining to a mouse with no time estimate21:11
larsumdeslaur: clearly that's a step in the right direction21:12
larsuand better than what we have now21:12
desrtmdeslaur: which for mice with no time estimate will mean that they are never shown (bad, according to your one wish) and for mice with broken estimations, means that they may be shown too often (bad, according to everyone)21:12
mdeslaurright, unless someone shows me a mouse that has a time remaining estimate that is wrong, it's a step in the right direction21:12
desrtthis is not a regression on the second point, though21:12
desrtjust not big enough of a 'fix', imho21:12
mdeslaurdesrt: they are shown if the laptop battery is fully charged21:12
desrtmdeslaur: ah.  right.21:13
desrtwhich is fine for a certain class of users21:13
desrtbut not so good for the 'charge at night' crowd21:13
mdeslaurwell, right now, I never see my laptop battery charge, so that's a pain point21:13
desrt(which is a substantial set of people if lenovo is to be believed)21:14
mdeslaurdesrt: I agree, but without a time estimation, there isn't a better solution21:14
desrtmdeslaur: well, there is, but it's not easy21:14
desrtyou know that for your particular model of mouse, a drop from 50 to 5% means "replace now, k thx"21:14
mdeslaurwell, you _could_ build a list of hardware and their dead battery notification level21:14
mdeslaurdesrt: right21:15
desrtya... that's sort of what i'm getting at21:15
desrtthis sort of information should probably be in some driver layer or something21:15
desrtthere is really only one useful thing to know here: "you need to replace the battery soon"21:15
larsuprobably not worth the effort - a mouse battery being dead isn't the worst of things and is easily noticable21:16
mdeslauryeah21:16
larsujust let it die, people notice their cursors don't move anymore and plug it in21:16
larsuuse the trackpad for a while21:16
desrtlarsu: meh... if being told to replace my battery today can save me from having to use a trackpad for all of tomorrow, it might be nice to know that21:16
mdeslaurof course, if you have a well-behaved mouse that has an accurate time remaining, then you're all se21:16
mdeslaurset21:16
larsudesrt: indeed. I'm just saying that building a db of hardware might not be worth the effort21:17
desrt...or remind me to run out to the store while it's still open before my mouse connected to my home computer (no trackpad) dies21:17
larsumdeslaur: do these exist?21:17
desrtlarsu: ya.  maybe not.21:17
seb128_could be useful in some cases21:17
mdeslaurprobably not21:17
larsuso ....21:17
seb128_like if my pad is about to run flat while playing a game I like to know it21:17
mdeslaurperhaps some rechargeable presentation thingies21:17
larsuseb128_: ya, we're not disputing tat21:18
=== seb128_ is now known as seb128
larsu*that21:18
larsuthis is about people being confused when the panel icon means something else all of a sudden21:18
seb128just counter arguing you "let it run flat and use the pad"21:18
desrti bet some sort of "your mouse charge level was previously above 10% but now it just went below.  click here to clear this status icon/whatever" type of indication would cover 90% of cases while being easy to get rid of (or ignore) for flaky hardware21:18
seb128your*21:18
larsuseb128: this is for mice...21:18
seb128how is pad different?21:18
larsuseb128: with faulty hardware that doesn't report battery state correctly21:19
mdeslaurso this issue is only for mice, and only if they don't have an estimated time remaining21:19
mdeslaurif they do have a time remaining, it's all good21:19
seb128why only those?21:20
desrtand maybe show the exact percent/time-guess in the dropdown menu if the user opens it21:20
seb128how are they different from e.g a keyboard21:20
seb128or a pad?21:20
mdeslaurseb128: ah, right21:20
mdeslaurso all devices that don't have an estimated time remaining21:20
desrti think by "mice" he meant "things that are not the laptop battery" :)21:20
seb128right21:20
seb128but larsu just said that my pad example is not in the same category21:20
mdeslaurwe have two choices: 1- display them when the power indicator would have disappeared anyway, which is what my change does ,or 2- don't display them in the power indicator, but have some sort of other notification21:21
desrti think larsu has been arguing for 221:21
seb128what about laptops with 2 batteries?21:21
seb128do you merge them in 1?21:21
mdeslaurseb128: the time remaining should work ok with laptop batteries, and the 2 battery scenario is already covered in the current indicator21:22
* desrt almost makes a comment about "what is this? 1995?" before realising that it's 2015 and lenovo just released one of those again :)21:22
mdeslaurdesrt: so do you move _all_ devices that possibly don't have a time remaining to notification #2?21:22
larsuseb128: show two indicators (I'm not joking)21:23
desrti don't know :)21:23
larsuseb128: because often one of them is removable - so having charge state for both is useful information21:23
* desrt has no constructive criticism -- only stop energy21:23
seb128larsu, I don't know how that work, but if you use one until flat and then the next one that doesn't seem smart to do21:23
seb128you always have 100% or a 0%21:24
mdeslaurdesrt: hehe :)21:24
larsuseb128: hardware usually doesn't let you do that21:24
larsunot sure though21:24
larsuman, I feel we have this discussion once per year or so21:24
mdeslaurseb128: laptops with two batteries usually use them alternatively21:25
mdeslaurlarsu: well, there's never an ideal solution to this issue :P21:25
larsumdeslaur: as in, 10% here, 10% there?21:25
desrtmdeslaur: not in my experience21:25
desrtone always runs down before the other21:25
desrtusually the 'more replacable' one21:25
mdeslaurlarsu: as in 100% one, and then switches to the other21:25
larsuoh, okay21:25
larsumakes sense, as often one of them is a bulky extension21:26
mdeslauryes, sorry, I meant one after the other21:26
desrtright21:26
larsuprobably it draws power from there first21:26
desrtthat's what happened when i had the slice battery on my t42021:26
larsuand charges the internal/small one first21:26
desrtit would always discharge the slice first21:26
larsumakes total sense21:26
desrtand it would always _charge_ the internal first21:26
larsu:)21:26
desrtalso makes sense from the standpoint of putting more cycles on the battery that's easier to user-replace21:27
larsuya21:27
mdeslaurdesrt: yeah, that's what I remember from the thinkpad I used to have that had two21:27
desrtanyway... it's clearly useful to know the status of the two batteries separately, but i'm not sure this is something that i'd want to know all the time21:28
desrtie: i'd prefer to save some space in the panel and combine them, i think21:28
larsuas in, (b1 + b2) / 221:28
larsu?21:28
desrtwell, weighted by relative capacity21:29
larsuya, bn is in %, sorry21:29
desrtno...21:29
desrtlike (watthours1 + watthours2) / (total watthours at full)21:29
desrtie: if the external battery is twice as big as the internal one, and the external one is dead, i'd expect to see 33%, not 50%21:30
mdeslaurthe indicator already combines multiple laptop batteries, but displays them separately in the menu21:31
desrtya.  that sounds right already.21:31
larsudesrt: ah you're right, sorry21:31
larsulate here21:31
larsudesrt: alas, mpt wants my formula21:32
larsuhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Power#Handling_multiple_batteries21:32
desrtlarsu: i think you're reading his use of the word "averaged" too literally21:33
desrtthe only sane thing to do in this case is "weighted average", so i assume that's what he means21:33
larsuhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average21:33
larsu"In colloquial language, an average is the sum of a list of numbers divided by the number of numbers in the list."21:34
desrti accuse you of being too literal and you reply by quoting wikipedia...21:34
larsudesrt: you accuse me of being to literal while reading one of mpt's specs? Clearly you don't know the man ;)21:35
mdeslaurdesrt: the current formula in the indicator isn't weighted21:35
desrtthat seems like some sort of terrible oversight21:35
larsueveryone reading that sentence reads it as arithmetic mean21:35
larsuthat's the first thoght that came to my mind as well21:36
larsudesrt: open a bug about it and assign matthew, please :)21:36
* desrt puts "should" in the summary for a good time21:36
mdeslaurhehe21:36
larsudare you!21:37
desrtare you both sure about this?21:39
* desrt is in the middle of reporting a bug that has doesn't have the means to reproduce21:39
desrt(also: i didn't read the code)21:39
mdeslaurdesrt: one sec, I'll pull up the link21:39
larsuI didn't check21:39
larsudesrt: but the spec is clearly ambiguous21:39
mdeslaurdesrt: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~indicator-applet-developers/indicator-power/trunk.15.04/view/head:/src/service.c#L131621:40
desrtawesome.21:40
desrtmdeslaur: thanks.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-power/+bug/143054221:41
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1430542 in indicator-power (Ubuntu) "Indicator doesn't use weighted average with different-sized batteries" [Undecided,New]21:41
desrtlarsu: and uh.... thanks for being pedantic.  seems you were not the only one :)21:42
mdeslaurhehe21:42
larsu:)21:42
larsulol, last comment on that battery bug21:58
mdeslaurlarsu: yeah :)21:59
larsu"your indicator doesn't behave in the way that  want. So I switched to bsd, because systemd is taking over the world!"22:00
desrt...it's not friday22:01
* desrt raises an eyebrow22:01

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