[01:36] <robert_ancell> Does anyone know why ubuntu-desktop recommends ttf-indic-fonts-core? It's not in the seed and reverse-depends doesn't seem to show any other package that might have pulled it in.
[02:10] <qengho> robert_ancell: hrm, does your reverse-depends search see Recommends, or only Depends?
[02:32] <robert_ancell> qengho, reverse-depends does show recommends
[02:33] <robert_ancell> I've never normally had trouble finding a reverse dependency but this one has me scratching my head
[02:33] <robert_ancell> brb
[05:46] <pitti> larsu: you can still run it, it creates backup files
[05:46] <pitti> larsu: testing it would be nice, as that's the script I'm going to put into the package
[05:52] <pitti> Good morning
[06:20] <larsu> pitti: good morning! I'll test it in a bit
[06:20]  * larsu needs tea first
[06:43] <didrocks> good morning
[06:43] <larsu> bonjour didrocks
[06:44] <didrocks> hey larsu, how is it going?
[06:45] <larsu> didrocks: good good, thanks! You?
[06:45] <didrocks> larsu: I'm great thanks! Another sunny day it seems :)
[06:46] <larsu> yep, here as well :)
[06:56] <larsu> pitti: script works as advertised for me. Thanks for looking into this!
[06:56]  * larsu will probably leave swap off for now. 8G ought to be enough memory for everyone...
[07:14] <pitti> larsu: cheers
[07:15] <pitti> bonjour didrocks
[07:15] <pitti> larsu: indeed, I stopped using swap long ago; it's such a thing of the past...
[07:16] <darkxst> hey pitti. larsu didrocks
[07:16] <larsu> hey darkxst
[07:17] <didrocks> evening darkxst
[07:17] <pitti> hey darkxst
[07:18] <darkxst> so the day after switching to systemd, I finally found the GNOME side of the silly upstart bug that has been plaguing us for the last year bug 1385572
[07:28] <darkxst> atleast our trusty users should be happy for a fix ;)
[08:19] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[08:50] <pitti> bonjour seb128
[08:50] <seb128> pitti, salut, comment ça va aujourd'hui ?
[08:51] <pitti> seb128: très bien, merci ! beaucoup de travailler avec systemd :)
[08:51] <seb128> pitti, félicitations pour le changement :-)
[08:53] <pitti> heh, merci !
[09:07] <Laney> hello!
[09:08] <Laney> forgot that my vps was going to be rebooted last night
[09:09] <larsu> morning Laney!
[09:09] <seb128> hey Laney
[09:10] <seb128> how are you?
[09:12] <Laney> hey seb128 et larsu
[09:12] <Laney> doing good, blue skies, tea, no scrollback!
[09:13] <Laney> how are you?
[09:13] <larsu> no scrollback!
[09:13] <larsu> I'm fine as well. sun, blue sky, tea
[09:14] <larsu> (alas, scrollback)
[09:15] <seb128> Laney, good a well, thanks!
[09:15] <seb128> though grey sky here
[09:15] <seb128> but coffee and no scrollback!
[09:15] <pitti> hey Laney, good sunny morning!
[09:15] <darkxst> hey laney, seb128 can you look at bug 1385572
[09:16] <darkxst> seems the extensions issue may just be the tip of the iceberg, and infinite mainloops and what not are also occuring
[09:18] <darkxst> its a mix of upstream, ubuntu and upstart bugs, but that patch should fix all
[09:24] <darkxst> (it obviously doesn't fix the upstart bug, but does fix the side-effects of it)
[09:26] <Laney> darkxst: do you know why we do this fail whale killing thing?
[09:26] <Laney> you're saying this codepath is somehow being hit in a normal shutdown?
[09:27] <darkxst> Laney, because ubuntu doesnt like the UI
[09:27] <darkxst> but yes under upstart, things get pull down in the wrong order
[09:27] <darkxst> so the fail whale fires, but then gnome-session keeps on running
[09:28] <darkxst> in that case there is no X, and gnome-session starts try to respawn apps, causing further fail wails
[09:28] <Laney> man
[09:28] <Laney> good job we killed it
[09:28] <Laney> that would look bad!
[09:30] <darkxst> but that is the tip, gnome-session normally fires the fail whale dialog and then enters a mainloop waiting for that to kill it
[09:30] <darkxst> so in those cases with ubuntu patch gnome-session will never die
[09:32] <darkxst> then the upstream bits are covered by http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=745944 and https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=745707
[09:38] <seb128> those bluetooth issues are annoying
[09:45] <darkxst> seb128, which bluetooth issues? bluez 5?
[09:46] <seb128> darkxst, no, my car failing to connect to my phone half the time for some reason
[09:46] <seb128> while the devices are paired and marked as trusted
[09:48] <darkxst> seb128, its a little hard to install Ubuntu on my iphone ;)
[09:48] <seb128> hehe
[09:48] <seb128> well I guess issue would be the same trying to pair your laptop
[09:49] <darkxst> seb128, never had an issue pairing iphone with laptop
[09:50] <darkxst> and I use that all the time
[09:51] <darkxst> it may be your stereo has a flakey bluetooth implementation
[09:52] <seb128> could be
[09:53]  * mpt wonders why Firefox thinks Thunderbird is the appropriate app to open .deb files
[09:53] <jpds> Where did Will go.
[09:55] <larsu> mpt: it's bound to file-roller by default. Alas, firefox doesn't use the xdg stuff but has its own list in preferences/applications
[09:56] <seb128> jpds, the one managing this team? in a train to London
[09:56] <larsu> mpt: actually, it's correctly bound to software center for me (fresh install)
[09:56] <seb128> larsu, in the desktop or in firefox?
[09:56] <larsu> seb128: both
[09:57] <jpds> seb128: We have 3G in this country.
[09:57] <seb128> firefox is weird, like it thinks gview should be the default text viewer
[09:57] <mpt> larsu, that list says “Debian package” is set to “Always ask”. Downloading a .deb always does ask, but opening it from the Downloads popup launches Thunderbird
[09:57] <seb128> jpds, it might be too flacky for IRC? he sent me an email from the train, so he has some datas
[09:57]  * larsu tries
[09:58] <larsu> mpt: not for me. Maybe you accidentally bound it to thunderbird in your profile, or have an old profile that had an error?
[09:58] <larsu> mpt: what happens when you open it in nautilus?
[09:59] <mpt> Nautilus opens it in USC by default
[09:59] <larsu> does the same happen in a fresh ff profile?
[09:59] <mpt> The dropdown menu in Firefox’s Preferences suggests “Use Ubuntu Software Center (default)”
[10:00] <mpt> (as an alternative to the current “Always ask”)
[10:00] <mpt> But the download dialog suggests, as an alternative to saving the file, “( ) Open with [ Thunderbird Mail (default) :^]”
[10:02] <larsu> lol
[10:02] <larsu> does nautilus suggest the same in “Open With…”?
[10:02]  * larsu makes his quotes nice when talking to mpt
[10:03] <mpt> No, Nautilus suggests only Archive Manager as an alternative
[10:03] <larsu> I wonder where firefox got that from then...
[10:03] <mpt> Searching Firefox’s about:config for “thunderbird” returns no results
[10:04] <larsu> about:config doesn't contain the mime type bindings
[10:04] <mpt> Probably the same place that it got the idea that it should hint text differently from the rest of the OS
[10:04] <larsu> ya... firefox is not a good citizen
[10:17] <Laney> anyone know about linux capabilities?
[10:18] <Laney> seem to be able to open a file by relative but not absolute path when dropping caps
[10:22] <Laney> ah there's an EACCES along the way
[10:47] <willcooke> o/
[10:51] <didrocks> hey willcooke
[10:52] <larsu> hi willcooke! How's it going?
[10:55] <willcooke> it's good :)
[10:55] <willcooke> Got some meetings in London today
[10:55] <willcooke> The sun is shining
[10:55] <willcooke> Video out on the n4 is fixed
[10:55] <willcooke> it's all good
[10:56] <seb128> hey willcooke
[10:56] <didrocks> sun, London?
[10:56] <willcooke> for reals
[10:56] <willcooke> :)
[10:56] <didrocks> seb128: he's at the beach! :)
[10:56] <seb128> didrocks, looks like ;-)
[10:56] <willcooke> :D
[10:56] <didrocks> that was the detail which betrayed you!
[10:56] <didrocks> :)
[10:56] <willcooke> haha
[10:57] <willcooke> Meting with JohnLea_ in a few mins, so I will see where we are with the compressed wallpaper and upload them today hopefully
[10:59] <didrocks> nice
[11:40] <larsu> ochosi: just updated my ido mr if you want to take another look: https://code.launchpad.net/~larsu/ido/prelight-and-focus-scale/+merge/252293
[11:40] <larsu> there's still some weird cases - like pushing down the slider and moving away from the menu item will leave it in pressed state
[11:41] <larsu> that's a lot harder to fix though (and should be fairly uncommon)
[11:50] <davmor2> willcooke: stop saying it is sunny in London it breaks the weather app that defaults to rain for London ;)
[11:51] <willcooke> :D
[12:43] <desrt> saluton, karaj samideanoj
[12:44] <larsu> morning desrt!
[12:44] <larsu> how's life?
[12:45] <desrt> seems pretty good :)
[12:45] <desrt> how's death?
[12:45] <larsu> dunno
[12:46] <desrt> well, how's life, then? :)
[12:46] <larsu> very good :)
[12:47]  * desrt upgrades to 'very good' as well, on account of the full french press sitting in front of him, waiting to be plunged
[12:47] <larsu> enjoy!
[12:48] <desrt> made good progress on the mekaro plans last night at the meeting
[12:48] <larsu> cool. when is it?
[12:49] <desrt> but i'm starting to get to that "i'm never organising a conference again" feeling, again
[12:49] <desrt> may24
[12:49] <seb128> hey desrt
[12:49] <desrt> seb128: hi seb :D
[12:49] <larsu> desrt: what about NUR?
[12:49] <larsu> :P
[12:49] <desrt> larsu: ...and toronto summit :p
[12:49] <larsu> that's a thing now?
[12:49]  * larsu needs to get on the list
[12:50] <desrt> i dunno if it's a thing or not, but it's been suggested by a few people that it ought to be a thing
[12:50] <larsu> a few people, eh?
[12:51] <larsu> are "a few" equal to one and is his name desrt?
[12:51] <desrt> no
[12:51] <desrt> i also count my split personalities ;)
[12:51] <seb128> Laney, larsu, opinion on bug #1430307?
[12:52] <larsu> seb128: yes, I agree that we should turn it off for the release
[12:52] <larsu> desrt might think otherwise
[12:52] <desrt> i already agreed to that logic
[12:53] <desrt> although i agreed to it "only for one cycle", and here we are, 6 months later ...
[12:53] <larsu> ya
[12:53] <seb128> larsu, thanks
[12:53] <desrt> but ya...
[12:53] <seb128> were those the same warnings?
[12:53] <larsu> and there's a point to be made for developers that want to see deprecation warnings for their apps on a stable ubuntu
[12:53] <desrt> they're the same type of warnings
[12:53] <seb128> or do we clean out the set from the previous cycle and repeat the logic on new ones?
[12:53] <desrt> but different specific instances of them
[12:54] <desrt> so yes -- things improved from last cycle
[12:54] <desrt> but then gtk moved the bar again :)
[12:54] <larsu> I guess more things got deprecated?
[12:54] <seb128> right
[12:54] <seb128> my point is that if those are new things it's fair to delay from one cycle
[12:54] <Laney> good old only one cycle
[12:54] <seb128> if that's the same set and we didn't act on it, that's a different topic
[12:54] <desrt> heh
[12:54] <desrt> we could have PARAM_DEPRECATED and PARAM_SERIOUSLY_DEPRECATED
[12:54] <seb128> lol
[12:54] <desrt> to tell the difference :)
[12:55] <larsu> some of those are definitely the same
[12:55] <larsu> gsettings::schema has been deprecated for a while now
[12:55] <larsu> as has GtkAlignment::*
[12:55] <desrt> ah... ya..
[12:55] <larsu> GtkSettings::gtk-menu-images
[12:55] <desrt> my eye caught the ones that happened to be newer
[12:55] <desrt> but you're right -- most of these are old
[12:55] <larsu> I think we ought to use this list as a TODO for beginning of next cycle
[12:56] <larsu> desrt: there
[12:56] <larsu> 's newer ones as wel
[12:56] <larsu> l
[12:56] <larsu> bah, enter key is weirdly formed
[12:56] <desrt> welcome to US :)
[12:56] <seb128> then we need to wonder if cleaning deprecations in e.g old gedit is a good use of our resources
[12:56] <larsu> seb128: update it!
[12:56] <desrt> are we shipping latest gedit?
[12:56] <larsu> with a headerbar
[12:56] <seb128> larsu, weren't you working on that update? what happened? ;-)
[12:56] <larsu> I love that all conversations in this channel lead to the headerbar topic
[12:57] <larsu> should be a rule
[12:57] <desrt> if this is old gedit then i imagine the solution is to update it....
[12:57] <seb128> lol
[12:57] <seb128> there we go
[12:57] <desrt> seb128: most of my 'imagined solutions' involve the word 'update' :)
[12:57] <larsu> seb128: I was and it's pretty much done, but we couldn't decide on what to do with the toolbar
[12:57] <seb128> I'm so glad to be out of that business
[12:57] <larsu> speaking of which, I have no clue where my patches for that are…
[12:57] <desrt> seb128: we miss you :p
[12:57] <seb128> haha
[12:58] <desrt> need someone to have real passionate arguments with :)
[12:58]  * larsu misses seb128 as well
[12:58]  * seb128 hugs desrt & larsu
[12:58] <larsu> Laney. Do your part and hate headerbars. NOW
[12:58] <Laney> also this bug violate's larsu's rule about "should"
[12:58] <larsu> Laney: mpt's rule.
[12:58] <Laney> heard it from you most recently :)
[12:58] <desrt> "Deprecation warnings are unsightly"
[12:58] <Laney> own it sister
[12:58]  * larsu owns it
[12:59] <larsu> I 'ope mpt doesn't mind
[12:59] <desrt> mdeslaur: we're talking about you :p
[12:59] <mdeslaur> desrt: I know, I'm watching with some popcorn :)
[13:00] <desrt> mdeslaur: by mpt rules, the correct title for this bug is "Deprecation warnings are unsightly and useless" :)
[13:00] <Laney> The only thing I have to add over last cycle is that now I feel a bit duped by the arguments given then
[13:00] <desrt> mdeslaur: as a lowly reporter, who are you to assume what is the correct solution to that problem?
[13:00] <mdeslaur> desrt: lol :)
[13:00] <larsu> he's not joking…
[13:00] <mdeslaur> desrt: simple. I care about our users. :)
[13:01] <Laney> those damn gtk developers and their hate for users
[13:01] <larsu> mdeslaur: we're not disputing that. The right solution might be different from what the title suggests, though
[13:01] <mdeslaur> the right solution is to fix all the gtk apps
[13:01] <desrt> mdeslaur: mpt has a rule that you should strictly stick to specifying a summary of the problem -- never suggest a solution
[13:02] <desrt> and he uses "should" as the best indicator that you're violating the rule
[13:02] <larsu> mdeslaur: not at this stage in the cycle
[13:02] <larsu> desrt: of course one can suggest solutions
[13:02] <mdeslaur> larsu: exactly :) or in any cycle for that matter, as the bar keeps getting pushed back.
[13:02] <desrt> just not in the summary
[13:02] <seb128> the issue is that fixing deprecation warnings is a low priority item, since those are mostly non user impacting issues
[13:03] <seb128> such they tend to not go high enough in our todolist to ever be acted on
[13:03] <mdeslaur> desrt: ok, I'll change the summary to "gtk sucks."
[13:03] <desrt> mdeslaur: much better :D
[13:03] <mdeslaur> desrt: and you can figure out what the best solution to that is :)
[13:03] <larsu> closed as "opinion" :P
[13:04] <mdeslaur> lol
[13:04] <desrt> mdeslaur: anyway... just explaining what we were talking about with the 'mpt rule'.  clearly following it is optional :p
[13:04] <Laney> how can I get std{out,err} from a GTestDBus launched dbus daemon?
[13:04] <larsu> not
[13:04]  * Laney doesn't understand why this thing isn't being activated
[13:04] <larsu> alas
[13:04] <mdeslaur> desrt: I see :)
[13:04]  * Laney changes the subject :-)
[13:05] <desrt> Laney: missing service file?
[13:05] <Laney> it's there
[13:05] <Laney> and launching it outside of the test works
[13:05] <Laney> s/launching/activating/
[13:05] <larsu> yet another reason not to use gtestbus‽
[13:05] <mdeslaur> if we're not going to ship a new gedit, I can certainly fix the deprecation warnings in the old version
[13:06]  * desrt makes a point of not understanding gtestbus
[13:06] <mdeslaur> I just don't want to do that if the new version gets uploaded in a week
[13:06] <desrt> mdeslaur: probably there are upstream patches you could cherry-pick to do exactly that
[13:06] <Laney> it's quite convenient
[13:06] <Laney> dunno...
[13:06] <larsu> Laney: unless you want to get its stdout.
[13:06] <Laney> they removed the toolbar...
[13:06]  * larsu pats Laney on the back
[13:07] <larsu> I think we should go toolbarless tbh
[13:07] <Laney> larsu: correct, you've got me there
[13:08] <willcooke> sigh
[13:08] <willcooke> stupid wifi
[13:09] <seb128> hey willcooke
[13:12]  * Laney ragequits this project
[13:13] <larsu> Laney: do you have a glib checkout somewhere? surely patching it to pipe gtestbus' output somewhere should be fairly easy
[13:16] <Laney> I ran it with a normal bus and there's some other failure lature on
[13:17] <Laney> it's just chewing my time now
[13:17] <larsu> what is the project?
[13:17] <Laney> fix gnome-keyring testsuite
[13:21] <larsu> desrt: [makes more sense here]
[13:21] <desrt> ya.  now that we're back on this topic
[13:22] <larsu> desrt: if we update the ui because of deprecation warnings this will be the biggest yak shave ever
[13:22] <desrt> larsu: that's not what's happening here
[13:22] <larsu> with ramifications in the theme, gtk itself (getting window control spacing right), compiz, unity
[13:22] <larsu> breaking LIM
[13:23] <desrt> we're deciding what to do about the deprecation warnings based on the question of if we want to update the UI or not
[13:23] <desrt> it only prioritises the asking of the question -- does not suggest an outcome
[13:23] <ochosi> larsu: thanks, that looks very promising! i have a busy day today, but i'll test and get back to you tomorrow if that's ok
[13:23] <larsu> we can't update because design doesn't care about the desktop right now and Trevinho doesn't care about csd
[13:23] <larsu> now might be the worst of all times to switch to headerbar uis
[13:23] <Trevinho> larsu: I *do* care...
[13:23] <Trevinho> larsu: it's just that it's a mess on compiz
[13:24] <Trevinho> larsu: I've been spending days on that
[13:24] <larsu> Trevinho: ya, I know. I worded that a bit strong
[13:24] <larsu> (sorry(
[13:24] <larsu> ()
[13:24] <larsu> ))
[13:24] <Trevinho> larsu: np
[13:25] <larsu> Trevinho: I'm just making a case that we can't update to header bars now just to get rid of some deprecation warnings
[13:25] <Laney> who suggested that?
[13:25]  * Laney biab, summoned to lunch
[13:25] <Trevinho> larsu: I'm trying to get stuff working, but it's not easy as every single compiz plugin uses geometries in a way that we can't just remove the HB size from that...
[13:26] <larsu> Laney: desrt
[13:26] <larsu> Laney: bon apetit!
[13:26] <larsu> Trevinho: maybe it's not worth it, then?
[13:27] <Trevinho> larsu: I'm trying to to find a way to avoid it, ub there are tons of corner cases
[13:37] <seb128> desrt, larsu, the issue there (or part of it) is also that we throw those warnings to users and it benefits little to do that, they should display on dev mode/for the people who work on the code and care
[13:38] <desrt> seb128: chatting about this in general in #gnome-hackers now - brasero maintainer is there to
[13:38] <desrt> +o
[13:38] <desrt> the argument is that 'normal users' aren't starting apps from the terminal
[13:38] <seb128> define what a normal user is
[13:38] <seb128> it's not because you are a programmer and use gedit that you care about debugging gedit/fixing it's deprecations
[13:38] <seb128> its
[13:40] <desrt> gedit is definitely a special case -- people run that shit from the terminal all the time
[13:40] <desrt> brasero and gnote -- i can't imagine why
[13:40] <seb128> right
[13:40] <seb128> but usually the issue get raised by gedit users
[13:40] <desrt> some people use gedit as EDITOR for git commits....
[13:41] <seb128> correct ;-)
[13:41] <larsu> desrt: people often get asked to start from a terminal to debug a problem though
[13:41] <desrt> and fittingly, the issue is already fixed in gedit
[13:42] <seb128> replace gedit by $editor
[13:42] <seb128> sublime if you want
[13:42] <larsu> hm? what does that help?
[13:42] <seb128> very few third party app writers do follow unstable gtk and focus on cleaning on dev warnings
[13:42] <larsu> oh indeed
[13:42] <desrt> seb128: well, that's sort of my argument
[13:42] <seb128> larsu, it's just that those warnings are going to show for users of "normal apps"
[13:42] <larsu> ya
[13:42] <desrt> lots of 3rd party devs are probably using ubuntu to develop
[13:42] <desrt> and not following git
[13:43] <desrt> so if we disable the warnings for everything, in ubuntu, then nothing will ever get fixed
[13:43] <seb128> well, our gtk displays those deprecations warnings
[13:43] <seb128> which is the topic
[13:43] <dobey> seb128: hey, would you care to sponsor a new intltool upload for me? https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/vivid/intltool/release-0-51-0/+merge/252235
[13:43] <seb128> dobey, can do, is that including features? (we are in feature freeze)
[13:44] <seb128> desrt, well, we should maybe display warnings only if some env is set and teach devs to set debug mode
[13:44] <dobey> seb128: i suppose technically "support for qt designer ui files" is a feature.
[13:44] <desrt> i have a better idea
[13:44] <seb128> dobey, yeah, can you ask for a ffe?
[13:44] <desrt> seb128: see #gnome-hackers
[13:45] <desrt> let's solve this once and for all
[13:45] <seb128> desrt, that solution stops working with app isolation, clicks/etc
[13:46] <desrt> that's for us to fix with additional tweaks
[13:49] <dobey> seb128: i sub'd ubuntu-release to https://bugs.launchpad.net/intltool/+bug/953342
[13:49] <seb128> dobey, thanks
[13:50] <seb128> dobey, I've added ffe to the title and changed the ubuntu part to "New" which I think is needed for them to see it properly classified as "needs to be reviewed"
[13:51] <dobey> ok thanks
[15:02] <Sweet5hark> seb128: any idea why 4.2.8/trusty is still struck in unapproved in the queue?
[15:03] <seb128> Sweet5hark, no, ask the sru team? I guess just lack of reviewers for SRUs
[15:03] <seb128> Sweet5hark, also things have been frozen for the .2
[15:04] <Sweet5hark> seb128: k. any specific victim I should poke about that? or just generic team on launchpad?
[15:04] <Sweet5hark> seb128: ah yeah.
[15:04] <dobey> Sweet5hark: ubuntu-sru is the lp team
[15:30] <seb128> oh, it's meeting o'clock
[15:30] <seb128> attente_, desrt, dgadomski, didrocks, Laney, larsu, qengho, Sweet5hark1, tkamppeter, hey
[15:30] <Sweet5hark> heya
[15:31] <Sweet5hark> frist post!
[15:32] <seb128> is everyone sleeping? ;-)
[15:32] <attente_> hi
[15:32]  * larsu wakes up
[15:32] <didrocks> hey :p
[15:33] <seb128> ok, let's get started
[15:33] <seb128> #startmeeting
[15:33] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 10 15:33:42 2015 UTC.  The chair is seb128. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:33] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:33] <seb128> #topic attente_
[15:33] <seb128> attente_, hey
[15:34] <attente_> not much, started trying to get ibus working under mir, but having way less luck than with fcitx
[15:34] <seb128> what are the issues?
[15:34] <seb128> it might be worth waiting for multiple surface support to land
[15:34] <seb128> in case that's part of what blocks it?
[15:34] <attente_> i don't think that's the blocker for this
[15:34] <attente_> because the proving server still allows multiple surfaces to appear, even though only one can get the focus
[15:35] <seb128> k
[15:35] <attente_> but ibus-daemon crashes as soon as i switch into the mir proving server
[15:35] <seb128> urg
[15:36] <seb128> do you know if it works under wayland/what is GNOME doig there?
[15:36] <attente_> no idea
[15:37] <attente_> going to keep looking at it this week while waiting for the fcitx reviews
[15:37] <seb128> k
[15:37] <seb128> might be a good idea to start to check there
[15:38] <attente_> sure, thanks for the hint seb128 :)
[15:38] <seb128> I'm sure unsure what our plans are for input methods under unity8 and if it's worth spending much efforts on that yet
[15:38] <seb128> but thanks for looking at it/investigating ;-)
[15:38] <seb128> thanks attente_
[15:38] <seb128> oh, btw I just saw yesterday that your fcitx ffe got acked by Laney
[15:38] <seb128> I'm trying to put a landing for that today
[15:38] <attente_> cool
[15:39] <seb128> ok, let's move on to the next one
[15:39] <seb128> #topic desrt
[15:39] <seb128> desrt, hey
[15:39] <desrt> hi!
[15:39] <desrt> as planned, i spent a lot of time rewriting the file monitor branch, finding bugs, fixing them, etc.  it's working now.  i just pushed that, am i am looking for reviewers :)
[15:40] <desrt> that's all, really
[15:41]  * Laney pokes seb128 
[15:41] <seb128> thanks desrt
[15:42] <seb128> (& Laney)
[15:42] <didrocks> Laney: worked! :)
[15:42] <Laney> \o/
[15:42] <seb128> #topic dgadomski
[15:42] <dgadomski> hey
[15:42] <seb128> dgadomski, hey
[15:42] <dgadomski> I'm afraid nothing from me this week
[15:42] <dgadomski> thanks
[15:42] <seb128> ok, no worry
[15:42] <seb128> thanks dgadomski
[15:43] <seb128> (still need to try to comment on your email on the desktop list to see if I can help getting the discussion going)
[15:43] <seb128> #topic didrocks
[15:43] <seb128> didrocks, hey
[15:43] <didrocks> hey!
[15:43] <didrocks> systemd:
[15:43] <didrocks> * debugged and discussed issue on bug #1392637. It turned out to clash with a way deeper issue in systemd around tmpfs being randomly triggered via disabled tmp.mount. We have an idea in debian on how to workaround it and bringed that up to the upstream ML. Unfortunately, seems there is no upstream interest in that issue.
[15:43] <didrocks> * proposed a fix for bug #1411140 in a generic manner due to overlayfs particularities. Waiting for upstream review.
[15:43] <didrocks> * added a fix for bug #1429171 (basically checking for plymouth pid file to lower the warning level if plymouth isn't started)
[15:43] <didrocks> * enhanced vm and vm iso scripts based on Martin's work to be able to spawn easily qemu's instance with network access and ssh forwarding (persistent and non persistent)
[15:43] <didrocks> * did some NFS tests with various configurations in vms to test Martin's NFS work
[15:43] <didrocks> Misc:
[15:43] <didrocks> * patch piloting
[15:43] <didrocks> * reviewed media-hub and telepathy-qt5 MIRs, some pending questions…
[15:43] <didrocks> .
[15:44] <seb128> didrocks, congrats on getting systemd switched to default
[15:44] <seb128> (& to pitti as well)
[15:44] <larsu> indeed!
[15:44] <didrocks> well, pitti was the man :)
[15:44] <seb128> you did your share
[15:44] <didrocks> I just helped a little bit
[15:45] <Sweet5hark> indeed, that was awesome work it seems!
[15:45] <seb128> :-)
[15:45] <didrocks> thanks nevertheless :)
[15:45] <pitti> don't believe didrocks, he helped a lot!
[15:45]  * pitti hugs you all
[15:45]  * didrocks hugs back
[15:45] <seb128> pitti, yeah, don't worry, we are not going to let him not get his share of credits ;-)
[15:45]  * seb128 hugs back
[15:45] <Sweet5hark> grouphug!
[15:45] <seb128> hehe
[15:45] <seb128> ok, Laney was late but let's see if he has an update ready at least :p
[15:46] <seb128> #topic Laney
[15:46] <seb128> Laney, hey ;-)
[15:46] <Laney> just you wait
[15:46] <Laney> you're in for a treat
[15:46] <Laney> • Cherrz-pick gtk2 patches to fix crash in spotifz & other stuff (related to the other cherrz-pick), then upload 2.24.27 which contains these fixes anzwaz.
[15:46] <Laney> • glib 2.43.91, glib-networking 2.43.91, glib 2.42.2 (utopic), glib-networking 2.42.2 (utopic), libsoup2.4 2.49.91, gtksourceview3 3.14.3, gnome-kezring 3.15.90, evince 3.14.2
[15:46] <Laney> • Trz to fix gnome-kezring's testsuite which is currentlz allowed to fail, give up (for now) after the nth fix revealed more problems
[15:46] <Laney> • Some gtk3 fixes: let CSD buttons be stzled (add a class), don't show a bogus image-missing icon in OTHER GtkMessageDialogs
[15:46] <Laney> • Some chats about a platform-api/indicator-location bug which was making it crash on startup everz time for unitz7 users
[15:46] <Laney> • Trz to get desktop image builds working, blocking on a MIR for a UITK upload which caused a component mismatch :(
[15:46] <Laney> ∘ One of the requirements is to get the testsuite working, so poke at that
[15:46] <Laney> • FFe reviews etc
[15:46] <Laney> ⚔
[15:46] <larsu> that's funnz
[15:46] <seb128> lol
[15:47] <desrt> i think he's meant to say "zou're in for a treat"
[15:47] <Laney> i made myself laugh at least
[15:47] <Laney> and that's what really matters
[15:47] <didrocks> zeah! ;)
[15:47] <larsu> Lanez: zou made me laugh as well
[15:47] <seb128> made me laugh as well :-)
[15:48] <larsu> might be faster if people who didn't laugh speak up now
[15:48] <Sweet5hark> are you making fun of ze germans and their pronounciation?!?
[15:48] <seb128> thanks Laney
[15:48] <desrt> Sweet5hark: making fun of laru's new keyboard
[15:48] <larsu> Sweet5hark: making fun of me :/
[15:48] <pitti> Laney: did you break your keyboard layout again‽
[15:48]  * larsu is on en_US
[15:48] <desrt> Sweet5hark: he finally made the jump to US layout and he's been mixing y/z all day
[15:48] <Sweet5hark> larsu: alright then ;)
[15:48] <seb128> Sweet5hark, 'ow would you dare? no 'ate 'ere!
[15:48] <Laney> next step dvorak
[15:48] <larsu> haha
[15:48] <Sweet5hark> lol
[15:48] <seb128> :-)
[15:49] <Sweet5hark> larsu: good choice though
[15:49] <desrt> at least dvorak doesn't lead you into a false sense of familiarity
[15:49] <larsu> Sweet5hark: ya, much better for programming
[15:49] <seb128> ok, next is larsu, let's see if he manages to pull an update out despite the new keyboard
[15:49] <seb128> #topic larsu
[15:49] <seb128> larsu, hey :-)
[15:49] <desrt> Sweet5hark: we just have to convince didrocks next :)
[15:49] <larsu> hey!
[15:49] <larsu> some bluez5 related stuff, then we decided to postpone - I guess?
[15:50] <larsu> then finally got into theming again \o/
[15:50] <seb128> we decided to get it ready in a ppa
[15:50] <seb128> because if we decide to postpone it's not going to happen again
[15:50] <didrocks> right
[15:50] <seb128> and we want to be ready for next cycle start
[15:50] <larsu> well, it's there to be uploaded if someone wants to
[15:50] <didrocks> better to be ready in day 0 when next release open
[15:50] <seb128> great
[15:50] <seb128> let's do that after the meeting
[15:50] <didrocks> yeah, I can give a hand if needed as well
[15:51] <larsu> theming: headerbars look very unity now, save for some spacing issues that are hard to resolve: http://i.imgur.com/QxMeEmn.png
[15:51] <seb128> \o/
[15:51] <larsu> also some smaller issues, like white radio marks in menus under Radiance
[15:51] <desrt> larsu: that looks pretty nice
[15:51] <larsu> fixed prelighting the volume slider in ido
[15:51] <seb128> we should do a theme landing once you are happy with your changes
[15:51] <larsu> seb128: I won't be until the spacing is right
[15:51] <desrt> larsu: except for the obvious unbalance... but what can you do?
[15:52] <larsu> desrt: this is all css btw (except for the foreground icony part)
[15:52] <larsu> which I drew (copied) myself!
[15:52] <seb128> larsu, it's still better than what we currently have, so if spacing is hard maybe let's land that and iterate later?
[15:52] <larsu> seb128: ya. requires gtk patches
[15:52] <larsu> non-trivial ones if we want to do it right
[15:52] <larsu> also, Adwaita patches..
[15:52] <larsu> and every other theme
[15:52] <larsu> (if we want to do it right(
[15:53] <larsu> bah. ))
[15:53] <seb128> good luck with that
[15:53] <larsu> also had a short week and a new computer (thanks again pitti for looking into my swap issue)
[15:53] <Laney> right is mighty!
[15:54] <larsu> ah one more thing: lots of discussion about notifications again
[15:54] <larsu> don't know if you saw that android-to-gnome-desktop bridge thing that pbor and nacho wrote
[15:54] <larsu> (was on planet gnome(
[15:54] <larsu> ))
[15:55] <larsu> not sure if this is something we'd want as well, but they asked us about unity support
[15:55] <seb128> yeah, discussed it with didrocks the other day
[15:55] <larsu> also, message dialogs as fallbacks for notify-osd break rishi's gnome-terminal command-finished notification awesomeness
[15:55] <seb128> do you know why they made an android app rather than using the bluetooth standard thing?
[15:55] <larsu> which is why I didn't push further on that
[15:56] <desrt> larsu: i read on the bug that they're pinging bash for upstream changes... how is that process going?
[15:56] <larsu> seb128: something about the bt notfication profile not supporting anything really
[15:56] <desrt> larsu: i have some bash upstream changes in mind myself, wrt. focus-stealing-prevention... might be nice to keep the channel open there
[15:56] <larsu> desrt: in process iirc
[15:56] <seb128> larsu, but yeah, having that working on Unity would be nice
[15:56] <larsu> I
[15:56] <larsu> I'm not talking to them, g-t maintainers are
[15:57] <desrt> having bash know that pressing <enter> in VTE requires a special negotiation would be pretty cool
[15:57] <larsu> anyhow - I was thinking about removing the dialog fallback in notify-osd, but mpt doesn't like that
[15:57] <larsu> ... and he has arguments
[15:57] <desrt> can we just convert the actions into snap decision actions?
[15:58] <larsu> we don't have those on the desktop
[15:58] <desrt> ah
[15:58] <desrt> that's a good reason :)
[15:58] <larsu> also, we do application activation differently
[15:58] <larsu> well, I don't know how we do it
[15:58] <larsu> or will do it, rather
[15:58] <desrt> once we're on systemd, i can only assume that it will be the same again...
[15:58] <larsu> sigh
[15:58] <desrt> old story, that.
[15:59]  * larsu reminds himself to think result-oriented and is happy again
[15:59] <larsu> anyway, all from me. thanks.
[15:59] <seb128> thanks larsu
[15:59] <seb128> #topic qengho
[15:59] <seb128> qengho, hey
[16:00] <qengho> Hey hey!
[16:00] <qengho> - Released Cr 41. Fixes some pixel-density problems, though causes much smaller problems. Apport & autopkgtest better. Simplified build.
[16:00] <qengho> - todo: Must figure out X resource DPI (ugh Gtk2) and dconf scale-factor precedence, OR some sweet spot.
[16:00] <qengho> - todo: Reconsider compiling in Neon for ARM and test for capability at runtime.
[16:00] <qengho> EOF
[16:00] <seb128> qengho, thanks
[16:01] <seb128> any news from the bugs you are trying to get info for?
[16:01] <qengho> seb128: Not yet. With this version, I can add bugpatterns and start to organize reports.
[16:01] <seb128> k
[16:02] <seb128> thanks qengho
[16:02] <seb128> #topic Sweet5hark
[16:02] <seb128> Sweet5hark, hey
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> - 4.4.1 in vivid now -- autopackage tests looking all good too: thanks seb128 for sponsoring
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> - finished a ppc64el build of LibreOffice \o/ (not ready for vivid/main though yet)
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> - bugzilla grinding through 4.4 regressions -- looks ok in general from 10000 fet
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> - GSOC, leadership, Hackfest orga and other stuff upstream
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> - Writer core refactoring (pitti failed to break stuff with the systemd migration, here is my attempt)
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> - next week: continue refactoring, likely some more GSOC, maybe look into LibreOffice on snappy (or rather: see what we are still missing there to make it happen)
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> EOF
[16:02] <Sweet5hark> s/fet/feet/ that is
[16:02] <seb128> Sweet5hark, thanks
[16:03] <seb128> is 4.4.1 the version we plan to ship with vivid?
[16:03] <Sweet5hark> seb128: well, 4.4.2 is rather late and this version looks okish already. so unless there are any emergencies ...
[16:04] <seb128> k, good
[16:04] <seb128> thanks Sweet5hark
[16:04] <seb128> #topic tkamppeter
[16:04] <seb128> tkamppeter, hey
[16:04] <ricotz> Sweet5hark, hey, long lasting regressions are a real problem imho :\
[16:05] <seb128> tkamppeter, not there?
[16:05] <seb128> ok, let's move on and come back to tkamppeter later if he shows up
[16:06] <seb128> #topic seb128
[16:06] <seb128> ok, my turn
[16:06] <seb128> • spent some time working on u-s-d not scaling correctly the wallpaper on hidpi, wrote a smaller testcase using gnome-desktop, got a working change but unsure if that's the correct way to fix it yet
[16:06] <seb128> • filed some more bugs about the experience with the uitk&click store after getting a click published (including ssh to the device not working when gnome-keyring is used, still need to debug that)
[16:06] <seb128> • looked at why the ubuntu phones are listed as type Computer over bluetooth, the class is defined in the configuration which comes from the package, unsure how to change it by device, filed a bug with some details
[16:06] <seb128> • sponsoring (libreoffice)
[16:06] <seb128> • ubuntus-system-setting
[16:06] <seb128> ∘ looked at the "no update available" label not being correctly centered in the page
[16:06] <seb128> ∘ worked on several more bluetooth issues on the phone, since I start understanding that code trying to help getting it working better
[16:06] <seb128> ∘ backported a translation fix

[16:07] <seb128> ok, next
[16:07] <seb128> #topic happyaron
[16:07] <seb128> happyaron, hey, there?
[16:07] <seb128> or not...
[16:07] <seb128> #topic FJKong
[16:07] <FJKong> hey
[16:07] <seb128> FJKong, what about you? ;-)
[16:07] <FJKong> I am here
[16:07] <FJKong> * https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-settings/+bug/1413865
[16:07] <FJKong> fixed, testing patch, now waiting for review
[16:08] <FJKong> * got feedback form some sogou Input method: fcitx randomly 100%, spend some time debuging this problem and give him some advice
[16:08] <FJKong> * developing Dash pinyin research
[16:08] <FJKong>   ** convert from Chinese to pinyin [done]
[16:08] <FJKong>   ** index Directory and save result [done]
[16:08] <FJKong> * have a discuss wih attente_ about Mir and fcitx
[16:08] <FJKong> EOF
[16:08] <seb128> FJKong, thanks
[16:08] <FJKong> :)
[16:08] <seb128> oh, forgot mlankhorst?
[16:08] <seb128> #topic mlankhorst
[16:08] <seb128> mlankhorst, hey
[16:09] <seb128> no mlankhorst?
[16:09] <seb128> #topic robert_ancell
[16:10] <seb128> Worked on:
[16:10] <seb128> - TPM work
[16:10] <seb128> - lightdm 1.13.2, 1.12.3, 1.10.5 releases
[16:10] <seb128> - Test kernel fixes for Toshiba keys
[16:10] <seb128> - Fix FTBFS d-feet
[16:10] <seb128> Currently working on:
[16:10] <seb128> - TPM debconf/ubiquity support
[16:10] <seb128> - XMir handover
[16:10] <seb128> #topic TheMuso
[16:10] <seb128> * Examined software center related accessibility support after bug being filed, and software center appears accessible with Orca and keyboard navigation.
[16:10] <seb128> * More unity accessibility work, the scope and filter options need to be made accessible as well.
[16:10] <seb128> * Worked on fixing a brown paper bag bug WRT pulseaudio and flat volumes not being disabled.
[16:10] <seb128> #topic other topics?
[16:10] <seb128> that should be it for the updates (or did I forgot anyone?)
[16:10] <seb128> do we have any other topic this week?
[16:11] <tkamppeter> hi
[16:11] <seb128> #topic tkamppeter
[16:11] <seb128> tkamppeter, hey Till, you can post your update :-)
[16:12] <tkamppeter> - Booked flights and hotel for the OpenPrinting Summit at Apple in California (I finally got my visa!!)
[16:12] <tkamppeter> - Organizational stuff for the OpenPrinting Summit
[16:12] <seb128> oh, congrats on the visa!
[16:12] <tkamppeter> - Bugs.
[16:12] <tkamppeter> Thanks
[16:13] <seb128> thanks tkamppeter
[16:13] <seb128> ok, on that good note I think it's a wrap for this week
[16:13] <seb128> thanks everyone
[16:13] <seb128> #endmeeting
[16:13] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 10 16:13:30 2015 UTC.
[16:13] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2015/ubuntu-desktop.2015-03-10-15.33.moin.txt
[16:14] <Laney> thanks!
[16:14] <attente_> thanks
[16:14]  * Laney is here for the meeting
[16:14] <seb128> Laney, :-)
[16:15] <didrocks> thanks ;)
[16:15] <seb128> sorry about trolling you for not saying hi when we started ;-)
[16:15] <seb128> for*
[16:16] <Laney> haha
[16:16] <Laney> no probs
[16:44] <seb128> didrocks, pitti, sil2100, do you know if there is a bug about our sdk env creation failing on trying to call initctl which is not found (likely a fallout of the systemd transition)
[16:46] <seb128> mvo, ^
[16:46] <didrocks> seb128: no opened bug against systemd as I see it
[16:46] <seb128> didrocks, it's not likely systemd's fault, not sure what though ... click?
[16:47] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, I would have expected to see a bug link to it
[16:47] <didrocks> but should be click
[16:49] <seb128> popey, that was mentioned this morning on #ubuntu-app-devel do you know if anyone opened a bug?
[16:49] <popey> seb128: I do not.
[16:50] <seb128> popey, thanks anyway
[16:50] <seb128> didrocks, pitti, is there a tag for systemd-init-as-default issues?
[16:50] <popey> happy to file one
[16:50] <seb128> popey, somebody else was mentioning it, please one of you file one ;-)
[16:51] <popey> kk
[16:52] <didrocks> seb128: systemd-boot
[16:52] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[16:52]  * seb128 tags bug #1430109
[18:06] <mvo_> seb128: thanks for the branch, I check it out tomorrow morning
[18:07] <seb128> mvo_, thanks
[18:07] <seb128> mvo_, it should be trivial
[18:07] <seb128> mvo_, do you usually use silos? I can already put it in one if that's the case
[18:12] <mvo_> seb128: yeah, I use silos, so go for it
[18:12] <seb128> mvo_, thanks
[18:12] <mvo_> seb128: but yeah, I think its not the end of the world if its broken until tomorrow
[18:12] <mvo_> :)
[18:12] <seb128> mvo_, indeed not, I can let it for you to handle tomorrow if you want
[18:12] <seb128> in fact I might have to do that, launchpad code seems to not respond atm
[18:29] <jcastro> anyone getting high CPU usage with compiz on intel/vivid?
[18:30] <desrt> Sweet5hark: so libreoffice has this really annoying feature where if, for some reason, it can't find a dictionary, it just tells me that the entire document contains no spelling mistakes
[18:31] <larsu> desrt: perfect!
[18:33] <ali1234> surely it's either that or telling you every single word is wrong?
[18:34] <desrt> i'd prefer maybe "you don't have dictionaries installed so i can't do spellcheck"
[18:35] <desrt> i'm not talking about the red underline thing.  i'm talking about when you actually pick "check spelling" from the menu
[18:35] <desrt> all it says is "spell check is complete"
[18:38] <seb128> jcastro, I think Macslow or someone discussed that with Trevinho the other day
[18:38] <jcastro> oh ok, sounds like the right people know then
[18:38] <jcastro> it's virtually impossible to do a search for high cpu and compiz and get any meaningful report
[18:39] <Trevinho> jcastro, seb128: it was mostly related to qmlscene, not really a full slodown
[18:39] <Trevinho> mh
[18:39] <seb128> jcastro, are you sure you are not on software rendering?
[18:39] <jcastro> how can I confirm?
[18:40] <Trevinho> jcastro:  /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test -p
[18:40] <jcastro> oh wow, I am on software rendering, no idea how that happened
[18:40] <Trevinho> plus, no blurred dash...
[18:41] <Trevinho> wow...
[18:43] <jcastro> should I force XNA on in a xorg.conf?
[18:43] <jcastro> or sna? whichever the hotness is?
[18:43] <Trevinho> jcastro: these should be for sw rendering I think...
[18:44] <Trevinho> jcastro: it's mostly something more related to xorg not loading proper libraries...
[18:44] <Trevinho> jcastro: have a look to Xorg.0.log
[18:46] <willcooke> pmcgowan pinged about this bug today:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/compiz/+bug/1293384
[18:47] <willcooke> sounds like lots of people have hit something related
[18:47] <jcastro> yeah except I figured, oh well might as well go to vivid instead, heh
[18:54] <jcastro> bummer, was hoping forcing SNA to on would help
[18:54] <jcastro> Trevinho, ok I at least know what the problem is, I'll continue to investigate, thanks
[18:57] <seb128> jcastro, what distro serie do you use?
[18:58] <seb128> brb
[19:48] <mdeslaur> tedg: I can haz review? https://code.launchpad.net/~mdeslaur/indicator-power/indicator-power/+merge/252500
[19:52] <tedg> mdeslaur, Makes sense, but I'm going to punt to charles as he wrote that code to be sure.
[19:52] <tedg> Long bug discussion there.
[19:52] <mdeslaur> tedg: cool, thanks
[19:53] <mdeslaur> tedg: yeah, everyone has an opinion on the matter...I stuck to mpt's order, which makes sense to me (ie: I want to know when my battery is fully charged more than my mouse which lasts months...)
[19:53] <mdeslaur> once my battery is charged, I don't care anymore, so it switches over to the mouse
[19:54] <tedg> mdeslaur, I love the guy talking to mpt about how he can't figure out user's needs :-)
[19:55] <mdeslaur> tedg: yes :)
[20:35] <charles> mdeslaur, woo, thanks for the MP :-)
[20:37] <desrt> mdeslaur, mpt: i don't like the lack of attention paid here to flaky/wrong devices/drivers
[20:37] <desrt> it seems that there are some amount of people in this bug who are impacted by false reports from their wireless mouse and they'd rather just ignore the issue and get on with their lives rather than explore the root cause of the problem
[20:39] <larsu> desrt: I have the feeling the real issue here is that people expect that icon to always be about their laptop battery
[20:40] <mdeslaur> desrt: I'm not sure what you mean
[20:40] <desrt> mdeslaur: it seems that some people have mice that report that they are perpetually on the verge of death
[20:40] <desrt> causing them to be shown higher in the menu than the laptop battery, always
[20:40] <mdeslaur> desrt: I have one of those mice, hence I opened the bug
[20:40] <desrt> does yours have a time estimation?
[20:41] <mdeslaur> desrt: no
[20:41] <desrt> others may
[20:41] <mdeslaur> desrt: yes, my patch handles that gracefully
[20:41] <desrt> so if my mouse is always reporting that it has 1 minute of life left and my laptop has 5 hours, which is shown in the panel?
[20:42] <mdeslaur> if your battery is 100%, your mouse. If your battery is charging or discharging, your battery
[20:42] <mdeslaur> desrt: oh wait, a mouse that says 1 minute left?
[20:42] <desrt> that is not apparent from the comment at the top of the file
[20:42] <desrt> yes
[20:42] <mdeslaur> desrt: is that an actual device?
[20:43] <desrt> mdeslaur: i think a lot of the people in this bug are specifically complaining that they own such faulty devices
[20:43] <desrt> which is why they're upset with the direction being taken
[20:43] <desrt> either that or they're just clueless and don't understand what you're talking about
[20:43] <jcastro> logitech unifying kb/mouse combos
[20:43] <desrt> but nobody really asked for clarification
[20:43] <jcastro> my mouse always shows the battery as dying
[20:44] <desrt> jcastro: does it give an estimated time of death?
[20:44] <mdeslaur> jcastro: with a time estimation left?
[20:44] <mdeslaur> my logitech says 55% with no time estimation
[20:44] <jcastro> it's like 1 minute or 1%, I'll take note next time
[20:44] <mdeslaur> jcastro: what do you mean next time, just click on it
[20:44] <jcastro> because not only is the pulldown widget always there ... you get notify-osd spam also
[20:44] <jcastro> mdeslaur, I upgraded to vivid today and it's not there anymore
[20:44] <mdeslaur> well, that's a different issue
[20:45] <jcastro> actually, I didn't notice that was fixed until just now
[20:45] <desrt> right... so another flaky driver that got fixed, probably :)
[20:45] <jcastro> mdeslaur, mentioning osd was just a way to encourage you to also fix that too for a holistic experience
[20:45] <mdeslaur> jcastro: one step at a time :)
[20:46] <desrt> anyway... if this is a case of "your mouse will die in 10 minutes" vs. "your battery is discharging with 5 hours left" then i agree that it might make sense to show the mouse
[20:46] <desrt> but i question how reliable such reports from the mouse can possibly be
[20:46] <desrt> which might make the entire feature useless
[20:47] <desrt> which means that the only case you engage that feature will be incorrectly
[20:47] <desrt> (ie: on people with driver/hardware bugs)
[20:47] <mdeslaur> well, my mouse works
[20:47] <mdeslaur> desrt: fix your driver :)
[20:47] <larsu> I'm pretty sure switching the meaning of that battery is always a bad idea...
[20:47] <desrt> mdeslaur: only because it doesn't report the time :)
[20:47] <mdeslaur> right :)
[20:47]  * larsu wonders why we put that much work into it
[20:47] <mdeslaur> but I do enjoy knowing when I need to change the battery in it
[20:48] <mdeslaur> my mouse isn't a driver issue, it's a hardware issue
[20:48] <desrt> well, i expect that to be the case
[20:48] <desrt> when something has a battery that lasts for as much as a year, i don't expect minute-accurate time estimation on the capacity
[20:49] <mdeslaur> when mine goes from 55% to 5% or something, that means I have a day left
[20:49] <mdeslaur> desrt: so what are you proposing? never to show the mouse?
[20:50] <desrt> i'm not sure what i'm proposing.  just pointing out a potential problem with the logic so far.
[20:50] <desrt> i leave the proposing to mpt :)
[20:50] <mdeslaur> right, so you'd rather leave it broken than make an incremental improvement :P
[20:50] <sarnold> one indicator per battery and no multiplexing? :)
[20:51] <larsu> mdeslaur: what's wrong with always showing the main battery of the laptop?
[20:51] <larsu> it's much simpler and gets rid of all those problems
[20:51] <mdeslaur> larsu: what about my UPS battery?
[20:51] <mdeslaur> larsu: and my bluetooth headset batter?
[20:51] <larsu> mdeslaur: show it in the menu and display a notification when it's low
[20:52] <larsu> switchting devices is just confusing
[20:52] <larsu> *switching, even
[20:52] <mdeslaur> you want a notification that goes away to say your mouse battery is low?
[20:52] <larsu> mdeslaur: needs to be a permanent notification
[20:53] <larsu> obviously...
[20:53] <mdeslaur> so you'd do all that just because some drivers are broken?
[20:53] <desrt> mdeslaur:  i just wrote a summary of my argument in the bug
[20:54] <desrt> mdeslaur: larsu's argument is different than mine
[20:54] <larsu> mdeslaur: no, I'd do that because having an icon in the panel mean different things depending on the battery state of devices I currently have plugged in is confusing
[20:54] <larsu> people seem to expect that to be the laptop's battery
[20:54] <desrt> and in this case i expect 'some drivers' is probably 'pretty much all hardware'
[20:55] <larsu> desrt's argument doesn't even matter that much to me - I'd dislike our approach even if we had perfect drivers
[20:55] <desrt> no way a mouse is going to reliably report (to the hour, much less the minute) time remaining on a pair of double-As inside of it
[20:55] <larsu> desrt: ya. And nobody cares about that at all
[20:55] <larsu> much less so much that you'd want it permanently in your panel
[20:56] <desrt> and i don't expect ones with built-in rechargable batteries to be _too_ much better
[20:59] <mdeslaur> sorry, but when my mouse displays a battery warning, I need to change the battery within a day
[20:59] <mdeslaur> I think it has value
[21:00] <larsu> mdeslaur: nobody argued that we should not show a warning at all
[21:00] <mdeslaur> in any case, I don't think redesigning the power indicator in that bug is appropriate
[21:01] <larsu> that's not a redesign, just changing one bullet point on wiki.ubuntu.com/Power
[21:01] <mdeslaur> larsu: right, so the laptop battery should have precedence
[21:01] <desrt> mdeslaur: thing is, with your patch, you're probably never going to see it unless you happen to have your laptop plugged in and not charging, right?
[21:01] <larsu> mdeslaur: not only precedence, it should _always_ be shown
[21:02] <desrt> larsu: as a separate indicator?
[21:02] <larsu> desrt: which one?
[21:02] <larsu> here's my design:
[21:02] <desrt> oh.  nvm.
[21:02] <larsu> 1. always show the laptop's battery state in the same place in the ui
[21:02] <desrt> i'd put the laptop battery where it is, and leave it alone... then i'd add some visual hint separate from that for the mouse being near-dead
[21:02] <larsu> 2. show battery state of aux devices in the dropdown menu
[21:03] <mdeslaur> desrt: yes, you're right
[21:03] <larsu> 3. if anything is in critical state, show a warning (notification + launcher icon in unity)
[21:03] <desrt> mdeslaur: so you're sort of getting further away from what you want anyway, then
[21:03] <mdeslaur> larsu: why would I want an icon for a fully charged batter?
[21:03] <sarnold> to confirm it is fully charged
[21:03] <mdeslaur> desrt: not really...I want to see my laptop battery charging
[21:03] <desrt> larsu: all batteries at 100% and not charging/discharging is a fairly good reason for showing nothing at all
[21:04] <mdeslaur> sarnold: that's when the laptop battery icon goes away
[21:04] <desrt> mdeslaur: right.  true.
[21:04] <larsu> mdeslaur: reassurance, mostly. We also show a wifi icon when it has very good signal strength
[21:04] <desrt> but i mean it's taking you further away from your earlier statement "sorry, but when my mouse displays a battery warning, I need to change the battery within a day"
[21:04] <sarnold> mdeslaur: whivch makes me wonder why the indicator died or did they move it in this release or..
[21:04] <desrt> since you'll only manage to see that if you're using your laptop at home a lot
[21:04] <mdeslaur> desrt: yes, but my laptop battery will last less than that
[21:04] <larsu> desrt: there's an option to hide the indicator when fully charged and plugged in
[21:04] <desrt> larsu: right.  i think that's fair.
[21:04] <sarnold> mdeslaur: also9, so you hav3e something to click on to see how much time is left
[21:05] <desrt> also consistent with a desktop....
[21:05] <larsu> indeed
[21:05] <desrt> i often use my laptop as if it were a desktop for an entire week
[21:05] <desrt> wired networking, plugged in to AC...
[21:05] <larsu> full volume?
[21:05] <larsu> oh, wait :P
[21:06] <desrt> you're either making reference to the fact that the correct way to control volume is via your external amplifier or i don't understand you :p
[21:06]  * larsu was joking
[21:09] <mdeslaur> desrt: ok, since my mouse has no time remaining estimate, it's simply not possible to display any sort of warning for it
[21:09] <desrt> mdeslaur: unless you go along with what larsu and i just independently invented :p
[21:10] <desrt> ie: some other separate indicator
[21:10] <desrt> 'indicator' in the generic sense
[21:10] <mdeslaur> desrt: at what point do you display that? 30%? 5%? 1%?
[21:10] <desrt> not in the sense of a separate program or whatever... but just some other visual cue
[21:10] <mdeslaur> there is no time remaining estimate, so you can't trigger a notification on it
[21:10] <desrt> mdeslaur: "when appropriate".  i have no idea :)
[21:11] <mdeslaur> desrt: right, that's the problem
[21:11] <desrt> i'm just pretty sure that comparing mouse batteries to laptop batteries will only bring pain
[21:11] <desrt> so someone needs to design something better
[21:11] <mdeslaur> right, which is why I'm not doing it anymore
[21:11] <larsu> desrt: it already does (see that bug) and has before...
[21:11] <mdeslaur> my patch prefers laptop battery with known time remaining to a mouse with no time estimate
[21:12] <larsu> mdeslaur: clearly that's a step in the right direction
[21:12] <larsu> and better than what we have now
[21:12] <desrt> mdeslaur: which for mice with no time estimate will mean that they are never shown (bad, according to your one wish) and for mice with broken estimations, means that they may be shown too often (bad, according to everyone)
[21:12] <mdeslaur> right, unless someone shows me a mouse that has a time remaining estimate that is wrong, it's a step in the right direction
[21:12] <desrt> this is not a regression on the second point, though
[21:12] <desrt> just not big enough of a 'fix', imho
[21:12] <mdeslaur> desrt: they are shown if the laptop battery is fully charged
[21:13] <desrt> mdeslaur: ah.  right.
[21:13] <desrt> which is fine for a certain class of users
[21:13] <desrt> but not so good for the 'charge at night' crowd
[21:13] <mdeslaur> well, right now, I never see my laptop battery charge, so that's a pain point
[21:14] <desrt> (which is a substantial set of people if lenovo is to be believed)
[21:14] <mdeslaur> desrt: I agree, but without a time estimation, there isn't a better solution
[21:14] <desrt> mdeslaur: well, there is, but it's not easy
[21:14] <desrt> you know that for your particular model of mouse, a drop from 50 to 5% means "replace now, k thx"
[21:14] <mdeslaur> well, you _could_ build a list of hardware and their dead battery notification level
[21:15] <mdeslaur> desrt: right
[21:15] <desrt> ya... that's sort of what i'm getting at
[21:15] <desrt> this sort of information should probably be in some driver layer or something
[21:15] <desrt> there is really only one useful thing to know here: "you need to replace the battery soon"
[21:16] <larsu> probably not worth the effort - a mouse battery being dead isn't the worst of things and is easily noticable
[21:16] <mdeslaur> yeah
[21:16] <larsu> just let it die, people notice their cursors don't move anymore and plug it in
[21:16] <larsu> use the trackpad for a while
[21:16] <desrt> larsu: meh... if being told to replace my battery today can save me from having to use a trackpad for all of tomorrow, it might be nice to know that
[21:16] <mdeslaur> of course, if you have a well-behaved mouse that has an accurate time remaining, then you're all se
[21:16] <mdeslaur> set
[21:17] <larsu> desrt: indeed. I'm just saying that building a db of hardware might not be worth the effort
[21:17] <desrt> ...or remind me to run out to the store while it's still open before my mouse connected to my home computer (no trackpad) dies
[21:17] <larsu> mdeslaur: do these exist?
[21:17] <desrt> larsu: ya.  maybe not.
[21:17] <seb128_> could be useful in some cases
[21:17] <mdeslaur> probably not
[21:17] <larsu> so ....
[21:17] <seb128_> like if my pad is about to run flat while playing a game I like to know it
[21:17] <mdeslaur> perhaps some rechargeable presentation thingies
[21:18] <larsu> seb128_: ya, we're not disputing tat
[21:18] <larsu> *that
[21:18] <larsu> this is about people being confused when the panel icon means something else all of a sudden
[21:18] <seb128> just counter arguing you "let it run flat and use the pad"
[21:18] <desrt> i bet some sort of "your mouse charge level was previously above 10% but now it just went below.  click here to clear this status icon/whatever" type of indication would cover 90% of cases while being easy to get rid of (or ignore) for flaky hardware
[21:18] <seb128> your*
[21:18] <larsu> seb128: this is for mice...
[21:18] <seb128> how is pad different?
[21:19] <larsu> seb128: with faulty hardware that doesn't report battery state correctly
[21:19] <mdeslaur> so this issue is only for mice, and only if they don't have an estimated time remaining
[21:19] <mdeslaur> if they do have a time remaining, it's all good
[21:20] <seb128> why only those?
[21:20] <desrt> and maybe show the exact percent/time-guess in the dropdown menu if the user opens it
[21:20] <seb128> how are they different from e.g a keyboard
[21:20] <seb128> or a pad?
[21:20] <mdeslaur> seb128: ah, right
[21:20] <mdeslaur> so all devices that don't have an estimated time remaining
[21:20] <desrt> i think by "mice" he meant "things that are not the laptop battery" :)
[21:20] <seb128> right
[21:20] <seb128> but larsu just said that my pad example is not in the same category
[21:21] <mdeslaur> we have two choices: 1- display them when the power indicator would have disappeared anyway, which is what my change does ,or 2- don't display them in the power indicator, but have some sort of other notification
[21:21] <desrt> i think larsu has been arguing for 2
[21:21] <seb128> what about laptops with 2 batteries?
[21:21] <seb128> do you merge them in 1?
[21:22] <mdeslaur> seb128: the time remaining should work ok with laptop batteries, and the 2 battery scenario is already covered in the current indicator
[21:22]  * desrt almost makes a comment about "what is this?  1995?" before realising that it's 2015 and lenovo just released one of those again :)
[21:22] <mdeslaur> desrt: so do you move _all_ devices that possibly don't have a time remaining to notification #2?
[21:23] <larsu> seb128: show two indicators (I'm not joking)
[21:23] <desrt> i don't know :)
[21:23] <larsu> seb128: because often one of them is removable - so having charge state for both is useful information
[21:23]  * desrt has no constructive criticism -- only stop energy
[21:23] <seb128> larsu, I don't know how that work, but if you use one until flat and then the next one that doesn't seem smart to do
[21:24] <seb128> you always have 100% or a 0%
[21:24] <mdeslaur> desrt: hehe :)
[21:24] <larsu> seb128: hardware usually doesn't let you do that
[21:24] <larsu> not sure though
[21:24] <larsu> man, I feel we have this discussion once per year or so
[21:25] <mdeslaur> seb128: laptops with two batteries usually use them alternatively
[21:25] <mdeslaur> larsu: well, there's never an ideal solution to this issue :P
[21:25] <larsu> mdeslaur: as in, 10% here, 10% there?
[21:25] <desrt> mdeslaur: not in my experience
[21:25] <desrt> one always runs down before the other
[21:25] <desrt> usually the 'more replacable' one
[21:25] <mdeslaur> larsu: as in 100% one, and then switches to the other
[21:25] <larsu> oh, okay
[21:26] <larsu> makes sense, as often one of them is a bulky extension
[21:26] <mdeslaur> yes, sorry, I meant one after the other
[21:26] <desrt> right
[21:26] <larsu> probably it draws power from there first
[21:26] <desrt> that's what happened when i had the slice battery on my t420
[21:26] <larsu> and charges the internal/small one first
[21:26] <desrt> it would always discharge the slice first
[21:26] <larsu> makes total sense
[21:26] <desrt> and it would always _charge_ the internal first
[21:26] <larsu> :)
[21:27] <desrt> also makes sense from the standpoint of putting more cycles on the battery that's easier to user-replace
[21:27] <larsu> ya
[21:27] <mdeslaur> desrt: yeah, that's what I remember from the thinkpad I used to have that had two
[21:28] <desrt> anyway... it's clearly useful to know the status of the two batteries separately, but i'm not sure this is something that i'd want to know all the time
[21:28] <desrt> ie: i'd prefer to save some space in the panel and combine them, i think
[21:28] <larsu> as in, (b1 + b2) / 2
[21:28] <larsu> ?
[21:29] <desrt> well, weighted by relative capacity
[21:29] <larsu> ya, bn is in %, sorry
[21:29] <desrt> no...
[21:29] <desrt> like (watthours1 + watthours2) / (total watthours at full)
[21:30] <desrt> ie: if the external battery is twice as big as the internal one, and the external one is dead, i'd expect to see 33%, not 50%
[21:31] <mdeslaur> the indicator already combines multiple laptop batteries, but displays them separately in the menu
[21:31] <desrt> ya.  that sounds right already.
[21:31] <larsu> desrt: ah you're right, sorry
[21:31] <larsu> late here
[21:32] <larsu> desrt: alas, mpt wants my formula
[21:32] <larsu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Power#Handling_multiple_batteries
[21:33] <desrt> larsu: i think you're reading his use of the word "averaged" too literally
[21:33] <desrt> the only sane thing to do in this case is "weighted average", so i assume that's what he means
[21:33] <larsu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
[21:34] <larsu> "In colloquial language, an average is the sum of a list of numbers divided by the number of numbers in the list."
[21:34] <desrt> i accuse you of being too literal and you reply by quoting wikipedia...
[21:35] <larsu> desrt: you accuse me of being to literal while reading one of mpt's specs? Clearly you don't know the man ;)
[21:35] <mdeslaur> desrt: the current formula in the indicator isn't weighted
[21:35] <desrt> that seems like some sort of terrible oversight
[21:35] <larsu> everyone reading that sentence reads it as arithmetic mean
[21:36] <larsu> that's the first thoght that came to my mind as well
[21:36] <larsu> desrt: open a bug about it and assign matthew, please :)
[21:36]  * desrt puts "should" in the summary for a good time
[21:36] <mdeslaur> hehe
[21:37] <larsu> dare you!
[21:39] <desrt> are you both sure about this?
[21:39]  * desrt is in the middle of reporting a bug that has doesn't have the means to reproduce
[21:39] <desrt> (also: i didn't read the code)
[21:39] <mdeslaur> desrt: one sec, I'll pull up the link
[21:39] <larsu> I didn't check
[21:39] <larsu> desrt: but the spec is clearly ambiguous
[21:40] <mdeslaur> desrt: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~indicator-applet-developers/indicator-power/trunk.15.04/view/head:/src/service.c#L1316
[21:40] <desrt> awesome.
[21:41] <desrt> mdeslaur: thanks.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-power/+bug/1430542
[21:42] <desrt> larsu: and uh.... thanks for being pedantic.  seems you were not the only one :)
[21:42] <mdeslaur> hehe
[21:42] <larsu> :)
[21:58] <larsu> lol, last comment on that battery bug
[21:59] <mdeslaur> larsu: yeah :)
[22:00] <larsu> "your indicator doesn't behave in the way that  want. So I switched to bsd, because systemd is taking over the world!"
[22:01] <desrt> ...it's not friday
[22:01]  * desrt raises an eyebrow