[13:52] <phillip> hi pascalc !
[13:52] <pascalc> hi phillip :)
[13:53] <pascalc> did you see the message I put yesterday in the channel?
[13:53] <phillip> pascalc: yes I'm may be able to help you
[13:53] <pascalc> \o/ :)
[13:53] <pascalc> thanks a lot, very appreciated
[13:54] <pascalc> let me see if one of our main German localizers is online, this way I can invite him in this channel and we can talk together
[13:56] <phillip> pascalc: so currently everything is done? https://localize.mozilla.org/de/
[13:56] <pascalc> on this part yes, but Coce our main web l10n person is almost alone on all projects, he is struggling
[13:57] <pascalc> and with mozilla growing (firefox OS, new services and products, more activity this year on Firefox desktop...) the German team is just too small to do everything now
[13:58] <pascalc> and here he is :)
[13:58] <phillip> pascalc: yeah, thats not only the problem in your team :)
[13:58] <Coce> Hi
[13:58] <phillip> hi
[13:58] <pascalc> I know (ubuntu user myself, I am French and we collaborate often with the French Ubuntu loco team :) )
[14:00] <Coce> phillip: Hi, I understand that you might want to help us on the Mozilla translation stuff? :-)
[14:00] <phillip> yeah
[14:02] <Coce> Are you interested more in translating products (Firefox, Firefox Mobile, Firefox OS Thunderbird, …) or the websites?
[14:02] <Coce> We need help with both ;-)
[14:03] <phillip> well I would be open for both
[14:05] <Coce> Ok, I’ll just talk a bit about translating the websites, it’s the only part I can talk about
[14:06] <pascalc> it's a good start (especially since we have Firefox 37 coming and there is a couple of pages needed for this release ;) )
[14:08] <Coce> Websites include a lot of things ;-) such as the add-ons page <https://addons.mozilla.org/de/firefox/>, the support page <https://support.mozilla.org/de/> (articles are handled seperately) and various other pages such as <https://www.mozilla.org/firefox/>
[14:09] <phillip> okey you use https://localize.mozilla.org/ for this?
[14:09] <Coce> This <https://l10n.mozilla-community.org/~flod/webstatus/?locale=de> is something of a summary of all the pages we care for
[14:10] <Coce> Yes, partly. We use localize.mozilla.org for everything that is listed there, other pages (basically everything else on mozilla.org not included there) is done on a one file per page basis
[14:10] <Coce> Example: This file: <http://viewvc.svn.mozilla.org/vc/projects/mozilla.com/trunk/locales/de/firefox/dnt.lang?revision=137798&view=markup> becomes this page <https://www-dev.allizom.org/de/firefox/dnt/>
[14:11] <Coce> And this <http://l10n.mozilla-community.org/~pascalc/langchecker/?locale=de> is the tracking tool for what is missing. We left some tasks in hoping that people might join in ;-)
[14:12] <Coce> And <http://l10n.mozilla-community.org/webdashboard/?locale=de> is the overview over everything, combining both single files and localize.mozilla.org
[14:13] <Coce> So what’s happening is we keep an eye on these pages and/or on the SVN directories and when new strings show up, we try to get it done as soon as possible
[14:13] <phillip> uhh okey
[14:13] <phillip> so much links
[14:13] <pascalc> information overflow :)
[14:13] <Coce> Sorry
[14:14] <pascalc> Mozilla is a big project, I think it's better to focus on one piece of the l10n landscape at a time :)
[14:14] <Coce> There probably would be even more if I could talk about products, too ;-)
[14:15] <phillip> hehe
[14:15] <pascalc> if you need any explanation, don't hesitate to ask me, been in the project for 14 years, lots of stories I can share :)
[14:15] <Coce> A smaller example for a current task would be <https://svn.mozilla.org/projects/l10n-misc/trunk/snippets/de/apr2015.lang>, which is short strings that show on the Firefox start page (about:home), if you are a Firefox user
[14:17] <Coce> It’s also so much at once because we are fairly unorganised when it comes to finding new translators. We’ve never done it before and there is no actual process for that
[14:17] <phillip> okey so let me first read your guidelines :)
[14:18] <phillip> And for ubuntu we do everything via launchpad so much easier
[14:19] <Coce> I think that’s what I meant when I said „no actual process“. ;-) There are no guidelines in the sense of „that’s how we do it“. It’s more like „we’ve been doing it like that for a while and it seems to be working“
[14:19] <pascalc> I can give you contexts/explanations on why we don't do it in a single place :)
[14:19] <Coce> Launchpad is also bug tracking, isn’t it?
[14:20] <phillip> right and code hosting
[14:20] <Coce> Ah, I look at it once in a while when I face problems with Ubuntu ;-)
[14:21] <Coce> For some projects, Bugzilla is in use to coordinate translations and reviews, but mostly for longer projects. The products l10n part is usually on Bugzilla
[14:21] <phillip> Coce: do you have something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGermanTranslators/Standard%C3%BCbersetzungen ?
[14:23] <Coce> Hold on, let me check. I think there are some guidelines for translating in general, but there is no dictionary-style overview
[14:23] <pascalc> I don't speak German, but I think this page is a guidelines documentation and a glossary right?
[14:23] <phillip> yeah
[14:23] <pascalc> for consistency of translations, we have a tool that extracts all translations for products and mozilla.org every 6 hours and that you can query like a search engine
[14:24] <pascalc> example: http://transvision.mozfr.org/?recherche=bookmark&repo=aurora&sourcelocale=en-US&locale=fr&search_type=strings
[14:24] <pascalc> better in German :) http://transvision.mozfr.org/?recherche=bookmark&repo=aurora&sourcelocale=en-US&locale=de&search_type=strings
[14:25] <phillip> okey
[14:25] <pascalc> AFAIK, the initial styleguide used by the German product l10n team was the OpenOffice guidelines that Sun provided us
[14:26] <Coce> Ok, <https://support.mozilla.org/de/kb/how-translate-sumo-kb-articles-german> is SUMO-specific in some parts, but also contains information on general writing style
[14:26] <phillip> So if I want to translated https://l10n.mozilla-community.org/~pascalc/langchecker/?locale=de#firefox/whatsnew-fx37.lang now I must download the file translated it and then upload it back to bugzilla where someone reviews it?
 was created a „long“ ago for translating extensions and also contains some information about how to write
[14:27] <Coce> Hi Archaeopteryx. (He is the product localizer)
[14:28] <pascalc> phillip, that would be a possible process for new localizers, for people that stay, we give them accounts and they can send the file directly on the server for the website
[14:28] <Archaeopteryx> hi
[14:29] <Coce> As we are only two people right now, often we just send the file to each other on IRC, but for more people Bugzilla would probably work nicely for reviewing
[14:30] <Coce> There is a Bugzilla component specifically for German translations, which we use
[14:30] <pascalc> The French team is bigger and we tend to use an etherpad, translate together into it and use the chat to discuss the translations, we rarely use bugzilla itself for review but I think it is because culturally we like to chat live ;)
[14:32] <phillip> oO I thought our translations process is not so structured :)
[14:33] <Coce> I think when compared to us everything is structured ;-)
[14:34] <Archaeopteryx> we are structured: requires svn access -> you; requires hg access -> I
[14:34] <pascalc> note though that we do ship mozilla.org on 80 locales + multiple products and other websites while ubuntu.com is still English only ;)
[14:35] <phillip> yeah right
[14:37] <phillip> now #demeeting is the right irc channel?
[14:37] <Coce> #demeeting is usually used for the now bi-weekly meeting on Thursday evenings (not tomorrow but the weak after)
[14:38] <Coce> I’m usually in #firefox.de, #thunderbird.de and #mozilla.de
[14:38] <Coce> But I can go to #demeeting as well
[14:41] <Coce> I hope I could give at least an idea of what we are doing and how we are doing it. The main part of the work is done by only one person for products and websites each, which is why any help is welcome ;-)
[14:41] <phillip> Coce: okey, so will try to help you if I have time :)
[14:41] <Coce> Sounds great, thanks. :-)
[14:42] <Coce> Would you like to take on any of the files listed above?
[14:42] <pascalc> How about assigning Firefox 37 whatsnew page to phillip? it will just be viewed by several million german speakers in 3 weeks from now, no pressure ;)
[14:42] <pascalc> it's an easy one though, and short
[14:42] <phillip> Coce: yeah will do both
[14:42] <Coce> :-)
[14:44] <Coce> If you’ve been doing Ubuntu translations, I don’t think there will be any problems for you. ;-)
[14:44] <Archaeopteryx> pascalc: two weeks https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar
[14:44] <pascalc> even more pressure ;)
[14:45] <phillip> Coce: yeah let's see
[14:46] <Coce> Did you use Bugzilla before?
[14:50]  * Coce meets to leave in about 5 minuts to catch the bus
[14:50] <phillip> nope, people always told me bugzilla is ugly and old and I should not use it :)
[14:51] <Coce> Ok, if you want to circumvent Bugzilla, we can try to find a way for that ;-)
[14:51] <phillip> Coce: so where should I contact you if I have a question or something?
[14:52] <phillip> Coce: no, I can try it
[14:53] <Coce> I hang around at #firefox.de, #thunderbird.de and #mozilla.de on irc.mozilla.org (usually in the evening). I’m also reachable by e-mail, the address is here <https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Teams:de> (second from above)
[14:54] <Coce> Makes me wonder why we didn’t combine real and nicknames on that page …
[14:55] <pascalc> phillip, if you want we can work together now on the whatsnew page and I explain you all the process while Coce is away, Coce can do the review of the translation later when he is online. Coce is it ok for you if I commit the draft of the translation on svn so as that phillip can see the whole process (provide a translation, put on the server, see the page localized on the demo site)
[14:55] <Coce> Sure
[14:56] <phillip> So I just started with https://l10n.mozilla-community.org/~pascalc/langchecker/?locale=de#snippets now :)
[14:56] <pascalc> cool, I tend to think that concrete steps are better to understand a process than a long explanation :)
[14:56] <Coce> Thanks for your help, gotta run ;-)
[14:56] <pascalc> ok :)
[14:57] <Coce> Bye
[14:57] <pascalc> I will be online unti 17:30, then I will also have to run and will connect later, like 21h
[14:57] <Coce> I can be back at around 20:00
[14:58] <pascalc> phillip, I propose that for snippets, we use the bugzilla process for review and for the mozilla.org page, we commit it directly on the svn server
[14:59] <pascalc> this way you will see how bugzilla works, how the web dashboard works and how the demo server picks your translation
[14:59] <phillip> ok
[14:59] <pascalc> which I think is already a lot of information for a start :)
[15:00] <pascalc> just ping me when you have a file ready
[15:21] <phillip> pascalc: what is the best way to check if I'm in the char limit?
[15:21] <phillip> check with wc?
[15:22] <pascalc> most text editors give you the number of characters in the status bar
[15:23] <pascalc> I think I had put an online length checker on one of my sites, let me check if it is still there
[15:24] <pascalc> yeah
[15:24] <pascalc> https://l10n.mozilla-community.org/~pascalc/ballot/
[15:24] <pascalc> it was for an old project for which we had to translate a tweet :)
[15:24] <phillip> ahh okey thanks
[15:25] <pascalc> otherwise in Gedit for example, it is indicated in the status bar on the right, the number of columns
[15:26] <phillip> ahh yes thanks
[15:30] <phillip> pascalc: is <a> counted? because the english string is 182 chars long and the limit is 180?
[15:30] <pascalc> no it is not counted
[15:30] <pascalc> AFAIK :)
[15:31] <phillip> arr
[15:40] <pascalc> jsut saw your bug, so far so good about the process :)
[15:40] <pascalc> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1144704
[15:41] <pascalc> what you need to do now is to ask Coce a review, for that you have to click on the "details" link that is next to the file attached
[15:41] <pascalc> it gets you to a page with your file and a 'review' flag at the bottom
[15:42] <pascalc> you need to put the review flag to the value: ?
[15:42] <pascalc> and put Coce's email in the field
[15:43] <pascalc> if you type coce, it will autocomplete (his name is Michael Köhler, should be firtst in the list)
[15:43] <pascalc> then you click "submit"
[15:45] <phillip> done?
[15:45] <pascalc> yep :)
[15:45] <pascalc> when Coce does the review, you will get an email with his feedback
[15:45] <pascalc> congrats on your first bug filed on the Mozilla project btw :)
[15:48] <pascalc> you can see on this other bug what review comments looks like, this one was filed by a new French contributor this week https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1144278
[15:49] <pascalc> (lots of comments from 2 reviewers because actually the translation was not so good ;)
[15:52] <phillip> :)
[15:58] <phillip> pascalc: must go now, thanks a lot for the help!
[15:58] <pascalc> you're welcome, thanks to you for helping!
[15:59] <pascalc> I will be connected this evening if you want to talk :)
[16:02] <phillip> okey bye
[16:02] <pascalc> bye
[18:39] <Coce> phillip: Danke für’s Übersetzen, ich muss mich grade noch um eine andere Übersetzung kümmern, dann schaue ich mir die Datei an ;-)
[19:52] <phillip> Coce: kein Problem beim letzten musste ich auf Grund des Limites sehr kürzen, vielleicht findest du da eine bessere Überstzung
[19:53] <phillip> mache morgen die andere die da noch Fehlte :)
[19:54] <Coce> Passt, keine Hektik ;-)
[19:54] <phillip> Coce: wie habt ihr uns hier eigentlich gefunden?
[19:55] <Coce> Das war die Idee von Pascal. Der ist einer der Leiter für Übersetzung bei Mozilla und hat uns angeboten, mehr Übersetzer zu finden. Einer seiner Ansatzpunkte war, im Open-Source-Bereich rumzufragen, ob dort jemand Interesse hat
[19:56] <Coce> Ich hoffe, wir werben dich nicht ab ;-)
[19:56] <phillip> nö nö, rath hat ja auch schon das gleiche getan :)
[19:58] <Coce> Bei euch ist Personalknappheit kein Thema?
[19:59] <phillip> doch klar, es ist immer ein kommen und gehen
[20:00] <Coce> Bei uns ist es bei den Übersetzern, zumindest bei den Webseiten, nichts davon. Das geht schon eine Weile in dem Zustand
[20:00] <phillip> aber bei ubuntu ist die Entwicklung gerade konzentriert auch ubuntu-touch und da helfen auch ein paar Leute vom Canonical
[20:01] <phillip> also wir haben immer mal wieder Leute die Helfen wollen, viele Bleiben nicht so lange
[20:02] <Coce> Ich habe die Webseiten vor ca. 5 Jahren übernommen, bis auf einen Wechsel gab es da kaum Veränderung
[20:02] <phillip> uhh
[20:04] <phillip> ich denke das liegt aber auch daran das der einstieg da nicht so leicht ist wenn man nicht mit den Leuten redet, im launchpad tauchen manchmal Vorschläge auf von Leute die ich vorher noch nicht kannte
[20:06] <phillip> bei den Anwendungen ist das aber nicht so ganz so oder?
[20:06] <Coce> Was meinst du?
[20:06] <phillip> naja Firefox hat doch sicher mehr Übersetzer oder
[20:07] <phillip> die zu mindestens mal was betragen?
[20:07] <Coce> Firefox hat momentan meines Wissens einen Übersetzer und einen, der grade neu eingestiegen ist. Ein paar andere helfen beim Korrekturlesen
[20:07] <phillip> jor gut
[20:08] <Coce> Soviel ich weiß ist besagter Übersetzer auch zuständig für Firefox Mobile, Firefox OS und Thunderbird (hier mindestens Korrekturen) und bei den Webseiten hilft er mir auch noch ;-)
[20:08] <phillip> :)
[20:11] <Coce> Deswegen sage ich, bei uns herrscht Personalmangel. Das Problem ist nicht einfach nur die viele Arbeit (irgendwie kriegen wir es hin), sondern dass wir sozusagen die single points of failure sind.
[20:11] <phillip> jor klar
[20:12]  * phillip muss jetzt noch lernen, mache das patch update morgen :)
[20:12] <Coce> Hachja, Lernen. Ich warte momentan auf das Feedback zur Hausarbeit. ;-)
[20:12] <Coce> Kein Stress und danke nochmal für’s Helfen
[20:13] <phillip> Danke fürs Review!
[20:14] <Coce> Kein Thema
[20:16] <Coce> Ich verzieh’ mich dann hier, danke nochmal und gute Nacht. Man liest sich.