=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== doko_ is now known as doko
* slangasek waves15:01
* stgraber waves15:01
* cyphermox waves15:01
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Mar 19 15:02:08 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.15:02
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick15:02
slangasek[TOPIC] Lightning round15:02
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
slangasek$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)15:02
slangasekbdmurray cyphermox doko sil2100 jodh mvo stgraber barry slangasek infinity caribou robru15:02
slangasekbdmurray: tag15:02
bdmurrayinvestigation into daisy bug LP: #1431796 (only one thread in ThreadStacktace)15:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1431796 in Errors "Only one thread shown in Thread Stacktrace" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143179615:02
bdmurrayfixed errors bug LP: #1431796 (not displaying threadstacktrace)15:02
bdmurrayresolved issues with whoopsie-preferences upstream branch (out of date and changes not uploaded to vivid)15:02
bdmurraytested gunicorn change of worker_class from gevent to sync to resolve too many interim responses issue15:02
bdmurrayupdated daisy-charm with worker_class change for gunicorn15:03
bdmurraysubmitted RT to have daisy charm updated so we can test worker_class change in staging15:03
bdmurraytested / worked with webops regarding gunicorn worker_class changes (seems good)15:03
bdmurrayfixed an issue with the way daisy returned EoL error message and worker_class = sync15:03
bdmurraysearched for strange stacktrace endings15:03
bdmurraytested DayBucketProposedCounts for recording crashes from -proposed users15:03
bdmurrayupdated oops-repository package in daisy-pluckers PPA (DayBucketsProposedCount)15:03
bdmurraysubmitted RT regarding updating oops-repository and daisy on staging15:03
bdmurraysubmitted merge proposal regarding component-mismatches svg (show team name)15:03
bdmurrayworked on component-mismatch improvements (showing uploader)15:03
bdmurrayuploaded apport SRU to enable automatic crash reporting from Trusty (LP: #1431058)15:03
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1431058 in apport (Ubuntu Trusty) "Stable Release Update to provide possiblity of automatically reporting crashes" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143105815:03
bdmurrayinvestigation into apport bug LP: #1300235 (chromium-browser crashes reported about init)15:03
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1300235 in chromium-browser (Ubuntu) "init (chromium-browser) crashed with SIGSEGV" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/130023515:03
bdmurraysubmitted apport merge proposal fixing apport part of bug LP: #130023515:03
bdmurrayverified that bug LP: #1419061 is fixed15:03
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1419061 in ubuntukylin-default-settings (Ubuntu) "On Ubuntu Kylin detect all packages as not genuine" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/141906115:03
bdmurray✔ done15:03
cyphermox * reviewing/testing installer multipath patches in bug 143007415:03
cyphermox * upload partman-base, partman-multipath, grub-installer with multipath fixes15:03
cyphermox * testing and review for post-boot multipath delays and issues:15:03
ubottubug 1430074 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "fix handling of multipathed disks" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143007415:03
cyphermox   - Multipath devices take long to initialize during initramfs (bug 1431650)15:03
cyphermox   - system drops to initramfs after install on multipath disk (bug 1429327)15:03
cyphermox   - Ship the default /etc/multipath.conf on multipath-tools-boot (bug 1432062)15:03
ubottubug 1431650 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "Multipath devices take long to initialize during initramfs" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143165015:03
ubottubug 1429327 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: system drops to initramfs after install on multipath disk" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/142932715:03
ubottubug 1432062 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "Ship the default /etc/multipath.conf on multipath-tools-boot (for user_friendly_names)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143206215:03
cyphermox^ I got some good results last night with changes to the multipath-tools udev rules15:04
cyphermox * reviewed urfkill pull request to fix new issues with flight mode and WWAN.15:04
cyphermox * silo for urfkill15:04
cyphermox * patch for NM connection selection bug, wrong context for IMSI (bug 1431471)15:04
ubottubug 1431471 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "NetworkManager uses ofono GPRS contexts for wrong SIM" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143147115:04
dokomeh, still difference in summer time ... (I'll go last, and will be forgotten ...)15:04
slangasekhmm :)15:05
slangaseksil2100 is off sick15:05
jodh* snappy15:05
jodh  - lp:~jamesodhunt/snappy/logger15:05
jodh    - Reworked after further review, including new tests.15:05
jodh    - Created packaging branch for the juju "loggo" golang logger,15:05
jodh      required for the snappy logger branch:15:05
jodh      https://github.com/jamesodhunt/loggo.git15:05
jodh  - Reworked lp:~jamesodhunt/snappy/privileged-operations (also with new tests).15:05
jodh* upstart15:05
jodh  - Bug 142975615:05
ubottubug 1429756 in linux (Ubuntu Vivid) "FTBFS: upstart test_job_process fails in majority of cases / Kernel returning unexpected EIO at end of file" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/142975615:05
jodh    - Collaborated with apw.15:05
jodh    - Lots of testing.15:05
jodh    - Wrote a C program + test script that surfaces the timing issue without15:05
jodh      upstart+libnih: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/1429756/comments/1315:05
jodh    - Tested on a 3.18, 3.19 and modified 3.19 kernels.15:06
mvo- Debug http errors on azure with smoser15:06
mvo- Look into size tracking bug (#777565)15:06
mvo- Merge debian/sid fixes for vivid and FFe (#1431877)15:06
mvo- New uplaod (matches the debian 7 version)15:06
mvo- Trusty SRU for #142904115:06
mvo- debug/fix install issue with aftershot pro2 from the store15:06
mvo- identify a bunch of similra incorrect meta-data for apps in the15:06
mvo  store that prevents installing them and fix them15:06
mvo- native build and unpack landed in snappy-go, major step in15:06
mvo  reducing the external dependencies15:06
mvo- lots of features, fixes, cleanup15:06
mvo- package/upload golang-ar15:06
mvo- discuss/implement new hashes support15:06
mvo- look into oem snap dtb handling15:06
mvo  Help Brian with software-properties-gtk questions15:06
mvo- trainguard duty15:06
mvo- performance review15:06
stgraber - LXC/LXD15:06
stgraber   - Released LXC 1.1.1 on Monday15:06
stgraber   - Released LXD 0.4 on Tuesday15:06
stgraber   - Various bugfixes and feature work on LXC and LXD15:06
stgraber   - Code reviews, bug triaging, other admin paperwork15:06
stgraber   - Now working on 0.5, due Tuesday (bugfix release)15:06
stgraber   - Looked into a LXC security issue (related to Seccomp)15:06
stgraber   - Still waiting on LXD-related FFes (archive is currently on barely usable LXD 0.1)15:06
stgraber - system-image15:07
stgraber   - code reviews (some more to do this week too)15:07
stgraber - Other15:07
stgraber   - Booked travel to Austin sprint15:07
barryqa sprint15:07
infinityslangasek: ?15:09
barryslangasek: back to you15:09
slangasekwas still reading scrollback ;)15:09
barryand mine was so short! :)15:09
slangasek * snappy: working on the developer story, how to cross-build a snap15:10
slangasek * review season continues, look for 1:1 invites coming soon15:10
slangasek * spent a bit of time on proposed-migration stalls, fixing maas (bug #1433697) to unblock syslinux and removing some never-gonna-build packages that are broken in Debian unstable15:10
ubottubug 1433697 in MAAS "maas depends on syslinux-dev, removed upstream" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143369715:10
slangasek * worked with robru on debugging uci-engine bootstrap issues15:10
slangasek * sprint planning: we have a date and a location15:10
slangasek * discussions with IBM about multipath-related bugs for 15.0415:10
infinity* Lots more glibc mangling, should be uploading today15:10
infinity* Wrangle some transitions out of proposed15:10
infinity* Work with didrocks (after a conversation with xnox) on restructuring the upstart package split15:10
infinity* General AA and SRU things15:10
infinity* Argue with Canonical VPN configs15:10
infinity* Discussions with Colin/William about bugcontrol versus series nomination15:10
infinity* Work on planning the vivid release sprint15:10
caribouBugfix :15:11
caribou - Investigating rsyslog memory leak on Trusty : running stress tests15:11
caribou   * Noticed small leak (~27Mb) on trusty (got help from infinity)15:11
caribou   * Running stress tests to reproduce (need to open bug for this one)15:11
caribou - Instance left in dying state : setting Havana test environment15:11
caribouContinued work on backport of runlevel S kdump fix over trusty for testing15:11
xnoxinfinity: note that smoser opened critical - that ADT testing fails as it tries to boot things with upstart, whilst systemd-sysv is installed and that fails.15:11
caribouPreparation for CTS sprint15:11
caribousosreport juju plugin enhancement15:11
caribouNeed to book travel before CTS sprint15:11
xnoxinfinity: marked as duplicate of the master bug.15:11
robru* CI Train15:11
robru  - Implemented 'dirty silo' notification -- when one silo is published/merged, other silos containing conflicting packages are marked dirty so that people know not to QA them until they've been rebuilt15:11
robru  - Rewrote migration job from scratch with 100% test coverage, bringing the overall total test coverage up from 85% to 90%15:11
robru  - various tweaks and improvements in error reporting, logging, pylint cleanups15:11
robru  - significantly improved the clarity of the error message for the case when you try to publish a silo that contains a package that hasn't been built yet.15:11
robru  - cleaned up the code that generates package diffs (code used to call debdiff 3 different times 3 different ways, now it just calls it once and processes the output 3 different ways as necessary)15:11
robru* lp:cupstream2distro-config15:11
robru  - dropped some transitional flags that haven't been used in nearly a year, shrinking the size of the entire project by 1/6th15:11
robru* CI Engine15:11
robru  - continuing to bumble through deployment issues, not much luck.15:11
infinityxnox: You have bug numbers?  I was basing this work on our conversation, not on actual reported bugs.15:12
xnoxinfinity: yes, we have bugs =) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/142268115:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1422681 in upstart (Ubuntu) "split out upstart-sysv" [Undecided,Triaged]15:12
infinityxnox: Ta.15:12
xnoxinfinity: note that bug report has irc log pastes in it ;-)15:13
infinityxnox: Even better.15:13
xnoxinfinity: well, paraphrased.15:13
xnoxsmoser: links to _actual_ logs in the duplicate bug.15:13
slangasekrobru: dirty silo notifications> great!  btw, I guess there's still nothing that prevents two conflicting silos being submitted to QA in parallel, even though only one of these will be published?15:13
slangasekrobru: which flags were transitional?15:13
slangasekcaribou: your turn15:13
caribouslangasek: done already15:14
dokobefore somebody forgets me ...15:14
doko- finally updated openjdk-815:14
doko- look at firefox ftbfs on arm64, reduce test case, file issue15:14
doko- look at linux ftbfs on ppc64el, gcc dropping -m32 (but why do we need 32bit support)15:14
doko- test ceph bugfix on armhf15:14
doko- fix auto pkg test for kde packages15:14
doko- migrations, vivid ftbfs fixes, ...15:14
doko- more GCC 5 work15:14
slangasekcaribou: oh yes, failing to read my list (or scrollback) sorry15:14
robruslangasek: indeed, nothing is in place to stop two built silos from going to QA in parallel; QA will have to just know not to QA the same package in two different silos. but once one gets published the other is immediately marked dirty15:14
caribouslangasek: np15:15
robruslangasek: and the transitional flags were 'daily_release: False' and 'use_stack_ppa: False', ancient stuff from way way back when ci train was first brought online.15:15
slangasekrobru: interesting, thanks15:15
robruslangasek: note that lp:cupstream2distro-config is different (and currently unrelated to) lp:cupstream2distro15:16
slangasekoh, ok15:16
slangasek[TOPIC] AOB15:17
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
slangasekanything else?15:17
robruslangasek: they were related pre-train but they've diverged since the train went online.15:17
slangasekanyone with spare cycles could put them to use on helping to get the archive in shape for 15.04: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20150202-vivid.html http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html15:18
slangaseka lot of packages stuck in -proposed right now15:18
infinityLooking forward to the relaxation of build failure hunting once I'm done with other tasks.15:19
barryindeed :)15:20
slangasekok, sounds like that's it then15:22
slangasekget your travel requests in for the sprint! :)15:22
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Mar 19 15:22:17 2015 UTC.15:22
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-19-15.02.moin.txt15:22
slangasekthanks all15:22
caribouthanks slangasek15:22
dokoslangasek, everytime I ask for help with MIR's and bugs, I get the answer that nobody has time. it's a bit frustrating15:22
bdmurrayoh, I was too slow15:22
bdmurraymvo: any ideas about bug 1432172?15:23
ubottubug 1432172 in glibc (Ubuntu) "package libc-bin 2.19-15ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: triggers looping, abandoned" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143217215:23
slangasekbdmurray: fwiw there was discussion about dpkg's new behavior wrt triggers on the Debian side, I believe for jessie the dpkg behavior has been rolled back15:24
slangasekyou should be able to find references to this on debian-devel15:24
bdmurrayslangasek: ah, okay15:25
mvobdmurray: let me check15:27
mvobdmurray: and yes, what slangasek said, it sounds a lot like the trigger change15:27
RiddellCC meeting?17:00
Riddellelfy et al?17:00
pleia2just gathering other members17:01
dholbachmhall119, elfy, cprofitt, czajkowski: around?17:01
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Mar 19 17:01:46 2015 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.17:01
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick17:01
cprofitthello all17:01
dholbach#topic Catching up with the Kubuntu Council17:02
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Kubuntu Council
dholbach#chair pleia2 czajkowski cprofitt17:02
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach pleia217:02
dholbachhey Riddell - how are you doing? did you bring anyone else from the Kubuntu Council? :)17:02
RiddellMamarok is here from kubuntu council and ahoneybun a useful kubuntu person is here17:02
Riddelland here's sgclark another useful kubuntu person17:03
dholbachhow are thing going? how are the preparations for 15.04 going?17:03
Riddell15.04 is going to rock17:03
sgclarkhi all17:03
Riddellit's out 10th anniversary and the headlines are going wild17:03
pleia2glad to hear it :)17:03
pleia2welcome sgclark17:03
RiddellI think we may crash twitter when we launch17:03
pleia2Riddell: hehe17:03
Riddellfirst distro with Plasma 5, it's going to be the year of the linux desktop at last17:03
dholbachis the kubuntu testing squad happy with the the new release too? :)17:04
Riddellthey seem to be, some issues with systemd but surisingly few given the change17:05
dholbachyeah... I was quite surprised too how smooth the transition went17:05
dholbachsomebody mentioned daily image builds being broken for a day or something17:06
Riddellthey're broken on virtualbox17:06
Riddellwhich is an issue in X that I see in ubuntu unity too17:06
* mhall119 is here now17:06
dholbach#chair mhall11917:06
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia217:06
dholbachRiddell, do you know if a bug is open for it?17:07
mhall119Riddell: congrats on 10 years of Kubuntu, btw, that's an amazing milesgtone17:07
Riddellwe have bug 1432343, was going to ask pitti if there was another one17:07
ubottubug 1432343 in syslinux (Ubuntu) "Vivid Daily 20150315: Live cd does not boot in VirtualBox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143234317:07
dholbachRiddell, you could try to ping LocutusOfBorg1 about it - he's maintaining virtualbox in debian and ubuntu (if anything needs to be done there)...17:08
dholbachah ok17:08
dholbachlooks like you're well covered there :)17:08
mhall119Riddell: how have things gone coordinating Qt releases in 15.04 between KDE's and Unity's needs?17:09
Riddellmhall119: that seems to have gone well, Mirv and mitya57 are on #k-d and we chat about updates, they're pleasingly responsive17:10
mhall119how about Wayland integration, is Plasma 5 going to use it?17:11
Riddellit will but probably not for the next LTS17:11
dholbachdo you have a special build for it or something like that for testers or curious folks?17:12
Riddellno it's still in development upstream, nothing very usable yet17:12
Riddellbut we do have kci17:12
Riddellkubuntu continuous integration17:12
Riddellthat builds packages every day17:12
Riddelland weekly ISOs from it17:12
dholbachoh nice... what happens in kci?17:12
Riddellso Plasma and other KDE developers can always test the latest and greatest17:12
dholbachwhat do you build and/or test there?17:12
shadeslayerdholbach: more or less all of Plasma/ KF5 and some apps17:13
shadeslayerdholbach: all of these projects are built http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-kde/ci-tooling.git/tree/data/projects.json17:13
shadeslayer( except the custom_ci bits )17:13
Riddellwe are also sharing out packaging repositories with Debian now17:13
dholbachdoes any gatekeeping happening there as well?17:13
Riddellso much less duplicate work all around17:13
dholbachlike "build it, run tests, if they fail, your change won't get in"?17:14
shadeslayerdholbach: some what, sitter is working on keeping a eye and fixes things as they break17:14
dholbachok, so Sitter is the gatekeeper, I see :)17:14
shadeslayerI still need to write some code to run autotests separately ( only in build tests are run at the moment )17:14
shadeslayermore or less :P17:15
dholbachhow do you feel Kubuntu is doing community wise? did you approve some new members recently?17:15
shadeslayerwe are in #kubuntu-ci if you want to look at colored jenkins output :P17:15
dholbachshadeslayer, I'm usually happy enough if I *don't* get mail or any notification of jenkins :-P17:16
Riddellthe community is doing ok, we had 1 new member this year and plenty of people hang around.  it's not as active as it used to be and is probably overly dependent on me17:17
dholbachbut yeah, I think it's absolutely fantastic that you're doing a lot in the CI world - it pays off so quickly17:17
shadeslayerI don't think not having new people is a bad sign per se, I've had people IM me and send me messages on Forums saying that they love Kubuntu17:17
dholbachRiddell, do you feel there are a lot of things which only you can do in the project?17:18
shadeslayerso, the developer community is most certainly becoming a bit stale :(17:18
Riddelloh sure the user community are lovely and not a day goes by when I don't get people excited about 15.0417:19
dholbachshadeslayer, sure... the people who actually decide to get involved, read the docs and take the plunge are very much the tip of the iceberg of all *ubuntu lovers17:19
RiddellI don't think there's anything only I can do, it's just a question of hours17:19
mhall119where do you think we can reach new potential Kubuntu developers? From the rest of the Ubuntu community, or from upstream KDE community?17:19
Riddellkubuntu users probably17:20
shadeslayerI agree17:20
mhall119are there any initiatives to convert users into developers/contributors?17:21
Riddellonly that I grab people whenever they show interest and offer them tutorial and handholding17:21
mhall119So the Ubuntu Online Summit is coming up soon, I know Kubuntu hasn't used it much for planning, but it might be a good time and place to host instructional sessions for this purpose17:22
mhall119kind of a "How to become a Kubuntu Developer"17:22
Riddellpossibly, I always find UOS hard to motivate myself by, we have real life meetings which work an aweful lot better17:23
* mhall119 is going to be looking for some Kubuntu members to be track leads again too17:23
sgclarkI failed miserably at that17:23
mhall119Riddell: understood, the Kubuntu sessions in the last two UOSes seemed very popular though17:23
mhall119sgclark: I'm going to try and recruit you again, so I wouldn't say that :)17:24
dholbachsince it's after the release, you could probably do a feedback or Q&A round17:24
Riddellah here's ovidiu-florin, he's working on a nice new website for us17:24
mhall119hey ovidiu-florin17:25
* ovidiu-florin was hoping to stay unnoticed17:25
dholbachthat's brilliant - it's really nice to get to know the entire team :-))17:25
dholbachmhall119, maybe we could invite the Kubuntu team to one of the next Community Q&A sessions?17:26
ovidiu-florinwhat are we talking about?17:26
dholbachcool :)17:26
pleia2ovidiu-florin: user community participation in kubuntu, among other things :)17:26
dholbachovidiu-florin, regarding the Q&A session or in general?17:26
shadeslayerdholbach: that would be cool indeed17:27
* mhall119 just heard shadeslayer volunteer17:27
dholbachI'd love to see a demo of what's new in kubuntu land17:27
shadeslayermhall119: I'm volunteering me and Riddell xD17:27
Mamaroksorry, I had to finish some urgent work, but am reading now17:27
* mhall119 just heard Riddell voluntold17:27
dholbachthat might also be a good opportunity to recruit new kubuntu folks :)17:27
ovidiu-florindholbach: in general17:27
ovidiu-florindholbach: both actually17:28
dholbachovidiu-florin, this meeting is an opportunity for the Kubuntu Council and Community Council to catch up17:28
dholbachovidiu-florin, we do this once a cycle to see how things are going17:28
dholbachthe Q&A session mhall119 and I mentioned happens once a week on http://ubuntuonair.com/17:28
dholbachusually we have lots of people from ubuntu social media channels who ask all kinds of questions17:28
dholbachand it's nice to have guests there who can show off something17:29
dholbachor answer questions in their area of expertise17:29
shadeslayerI have to go for spanish class, hasta luego :)17:29
dholbachshadeslayer, enjoy! :)17:29
* Mamarok wonders why he doesn't learn Catalan instead...17:30
dholbachI'll drop Riddell and shadeslayer a mail about the Q&A and we can have a look at the calendar together17:30
dholbachdoes anyone have any more questions?17:30
* Riddell does17:31
ovidiu-florinwith a 9 mm17:31
Riddellhttp://www.ubuntu.com/legal/terms-and-policies/intellectual-property-policy still says "Otherwise you... will need to recompile the source code to create your own binaries." this is untrue and disrespectful to the copyright owners, who are Ubuntu's upstream communities17:31
RiddellI have been hilighting this for over a year and the community council has done nothing about it. It is hurting Kubuntu development. The communitiy council needs to make a firm statement that this is untrue and that in the spirit of free software they welcome derivatives.17:31
mhall119we certainly haven't done nothing17:32
mhall119in fact, it's consumed quite a bit of our time and efforts over the same year17:32
czajkowskiRiddell: to be clear we've raised it to canonical legal17:32
* ovidiu-florin has a question as well17:32
Riddellczajkowski: that doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, time to just take a stand17:32
dholbachWhere do you see Kubuntu development hurt?17:32
mhall119Riddell: can you go into detail about how it is hurting Kubuntu development?17:32
czajkowskiand from there it;s kinda hit a wall  we are talking to rickspencer in the coming weeks and will ask for it to be pushed again17:33
Riddelldholbach: shadeslayer used to be working full time on Kubuntu, now he's not17:33
Riddellczajkowski: best stop giving in to their stalling and just make a statement17:33
czajkowskiRiddell: it's not about taking a stand , it's about getting it corrected/ cleared up for all parties.17:33
dholbachRiddell, I'm not sure I understand17:33
czajkowskiRiddell: that's not how the CC operates.17:33
dholbachRiddell, is this an immediate effect of Ubuntu trademarks?17:33
Riddelldholbach: is what?17:33
mhall119shadeslayer: has the trademark/ip question caused you problems with your employment?17:34
czajkowskiRiddell: can you give us an example where this has stopped someone from contributing to Kubuntu.17:34
dholbachRiddell, shadeslayer working fulltime on Kubuntu17:34
Riddellshadeslayer has gone17:34
dholbachI'm not quite sure I follow17:34
Mamarokhe just left for his Spanish lesson17:34
Riddellczajkowski: I refer the honourable lady to the answer I gave some moments ago17:34
Riddelldholbach: what don't you follow?17:34
mhall119ok, we can follow up with him via email17:34
Riddellwhy not just deal with the problem rather than the symptoms?17:34
Mamarokwhy taking this to mail, can't this be cleared here? Riddell can exmplain17:35
mhall119Riddell: the CC has limited ability to "just deal with the problem"17:35
* ogra_ always thought this stanza only refers to out of archive builds ... which kubuntu definitely doesnt fall under17:35
dholbachRiddell, you said the policy hurts kubuntu development, then you mention Rohan not working on Kubuntu fulltime any more - I was just wondering if the two were connected17:35
Riddellmhall119: make a public statement saying it is untrue and irrelevent17:35
mhall119Mamarok: Riddell: is shadeslayer okay with you going into detail about his employment situation?17:35
Riddelldholbach: yes they are17:35
dholbachok, I'm afraid I don't understand17:36
mhall119Riddell: the CC is not qualified to make legal statements like that, and even if we were they would have no legal authority as we do not own the IP in question17:36
Riddellmhall119: that's irrelevent.  canonical doesn't own the copyrights either. that's the whole point.17:36
Riddelldholbach: what don't you understand?17:36
dholbachthe connections17:36
dholbachthe connection17:36
mhall119Riddell: they are the ones making the claim, so again the CC doesn't have any standing to make claims one way or the other17:37
Riddelldholbach: blue systems is worried that canonical will want to restrict derivates and so shadeslayer got moved to other tasks17:37
mhall119Riddell: has Blue Systems contacted Canonical about this?17:37
Riddellmhall119: yes it does, it is the ubuntu council, it can make a claim on ubuntu's behalf17:37
dholbachwhere are derivatives restricted?17:37
elfysorry - was late getting away - hi Kubuntu people17:37
dholbachwe all live in the same archive17:37
dholbach#chair elfy17:37
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach elfy mhall119 pleia217:37
mhall119IIRC, Mint was given a very favorable agreement to clear this up17:37
czajkowskiRiddell: the CC can't control what tasks shadeslayer is moved onto.17:37
Riddelldholbach: 17:31 < Riddell> http://www.ubuntu.com/legal/terms-and-policies/intellectual-property-policy still says "Otherwise you... will need to recompile the source code to create your own binaries." this is untrue and  disrespectful to the copyright owners, who are Ubuntu's upstream communities17:38
Riddellczajkowski: no but it can address the symptoms17:38
Riddellmhall119: mint did not have to make an agreement at all17:38
dholbachright, I read that the first time - I might need more detail to understand the connection between all of this17:38
czajkowskiRiddell: nobody outside of their own employment can deal with that tbh let alone the CC17:38
Riddelldholbach: if canonical claims the packages in the archive are not infact free software and are restricted in use then people will not want to work with them17:39
Riddellczajkowski: you could deal with the reasons for it17:39
RiddellI'm astonished that the CC doesn't understand the basics of free software or how it can be harmed by claims that our software is not Free17:40
dholbachthey are free software, no doubt about that - IANAL, but all Canonical asks for is a conversation, if you intend to use the Ubuntu trademark commercially and ship Ubuntu in a modified sense17:40
pleia2Riddell: you're being really unfair to us (and I think you know that)17:40
mhall119Riddell: the CC has been dealing with is, and are continuing to do so. If you are okay with us doing what we feel is best for Ubuntu we will keep doing that. But it means you'll have to accept what we end us doing.17:40
dholbachbut as Kubuntu is a derivative and lives in the same archive.......... where's the problem?17:40
pleia2we've worked for over a year on this, more than any other topic, but our influence over Canonical is limited17:41
czajkowskiRiddell: we have spent a lot of time on this and spent time raising this to the legal dept in canonical17:41
dholbachUbuntu is free software17:41
Laneywhat if Blue Systems wants to ship a modified version of Kubuntu?17:41
Riddelldholbach: kubuntu is not a derivative.  we do care about our derivatives and this harms them.17:41
Riddellpleia2: so make a public statement that it is untrue17:41
Laneyor if $random_person does for that matter17:41
dholbachRiddell, sorry, a flavour then17:41
Laneythis clause says that they have to recompile it all17:41
Riddellczajkowski: so time to give up on the canonical legal dept, they have been stalling for a year, enough already17:42
RiddellLaney: yes.  that is not true and it is dangerous.17:42
mhall119Laney: or work within the archives as Kubuntudoes17:42
czajkowskiRiddell: you keep asking us to make a statement and we've already said we wont do that not until we hear from Canonical leagal on the matter17:42
Riddellczajkowski: ok, see you in another year then.17:42
Riddellmhall119: or not.  it's their choice.  that's free software.17:42
czajkowskiRiddell: you're really making this harder than needs be, you'd swear the CC sit around doing nothing17:43
czajkowskiwe've put a lot of effort into this17:43
czajkowskiand yes it hasn't been easy17:43
Riddellczajkowski: what has changed in the last year?17:43
czajkowskinor have we gotten to the bottom of it yet17:43
czajkowskibut we are at least trying17:43
mhall119Riddell: do you want the CC do handle this, or do you want the CC to just come to a specific conclusion that you've already come to?17:43
Mamarokmayber it's the fact that we got no feedback on it so far, and the legal departement obviously doesn't want to do anything about it17:44
Riddellmhall119: I want the CC to give up on canonical legal who are clearly not interested in fixing it and make a statement that it is untrue.17:44
* ovidiu-florin has a question as well, please don't forget17:44
mhall119Riddell: and if the CC doesn't agree with that statement?17:44
cprofittRiddell: In order to make a public statement on a legal matter the CC would have to have a legal expert familiar with international law and the laws of several countries. I do not feel qualified to make any such public statement. I also would like to say that public thrashing about on the topic does not help the situation either.17:44
Riddellcprofitt: that's just making excuses17:44
Mamarokcprofitt: doesn't affect international law, it affects the Free Software licenses IMHO, but IANAL17:45
Riddellmhall119: than make one you do agree on, but don't let someone claim Ubuntu is not Free software17:45
Riddellanyway this is going nowhere again, let's move on17:45
mhall119Mamarok: how that license is applied depends to a large extent on the law in the place it is tried17:45
cprofittRiddell: I do not see it as an excuse Riddell, but I would like to ask you to be more respectful of the people trying to sort through the issue.17:46
dholbachThis is a trademarks/IP issue and you know that Canonical has to be protective of the trademarks - that the success of Ubuntu and Canonical are connected. Kubuntu has lots of freedoms, like everyone else who works in the archive. When modified versions of *Ubuntu are still called *Ubuntu, that can be a problem. It'll be hard to get a "carte blanche" in this area.17:46
dholbachOr are we talking about a different issue?17:46
Riddelldholbach: it's a copyright issue17:47
cprofittWe are trying to do what is right through the channels we have. Just because I have not gotten a timely response I will not make statements I can not make in good faith.17:47
Riddellcprofitt: ok, see you next year.17:47
mhall119Riddell: if Blue Systems or shadeslayer have been specifically impacted by this issue, I would encourage them to talk directly to the CC also so that we can have that additional information to take to Canonical legal17:47
elfyI think that we should move on and see what ovidiu-florin has - we've also got the Membership Board17:47
cprofittelfy: I agree17:47
* ovidiu-florin is affraid to ask17:48
mhall119ovidiu-florin: don't be :)17:48
ovidiu-florincan I ask here/now about the Ubuntu community fund?17:48
cprofittRiddell: Thanks for your understanding and patience.17:48
dholbachovidiu-florin, what's your question?17:48
mhall119ovidiu-florin: you can, but we are scheduling a meeting to get more information from Canonical about it, so we may not be able to answer everything today17:48
elfyovidiu-florin: we're actually looking into that currently - we have a meeting later17:49
ovidiu-florinI'm not asking about aproval for my request17:49
ovidiu-florinI want to ask abouot an issue that I understand from Riddell that there's a topic somewhere about this17:49
dholbachcan you be more specific?17:49
* ovidiu-florin is typing17:50
ovidiu-florinWhy can't we apply for funds for expences that we already had? For the many cases when we can't forsee what expenses we will have?17:50
cprofittovidiu-florin: there is a topic that Riddell has raised. I am not sure we can call it an issue yet, but there may be one. We are researching that and discussing with the Canonical Community team.17:50
mhall119ovidiu-florin: so that's more of a question for the Community Team, but I can answer it17:51
ovidiu-florinYou can't always predict the costs for a trip, or an event17:51
elfyovidiu-florin: that is the issue that we're currently sorting out - we'll not be able to do anything now17:51
dholbachJust estimate.17:51
elfyand Riddell knows that we're looking into it17:51
dholbachwe don't want people to be in a position where they just assume "oh, this'll be paid for"17:51
dholbachand then end up having to pay because of misunderstandings or other issues17:52
mhall119ovidiu-florin: the primary reason is because we don't want people to be out of money if we don't approve. If somebody spends money, then asks tobe paid back, but the use wasn't a valid use, we'll have to tell them know and now they are personally hurt (financially) by it17:52
dholbachit'll also help planning and budgeting17:52
ovidiu-florinFor example, I can make a request for the travel expenses, but bu the time they get acecpted, The price of the plane ticket may have doubled.17:52
mhall119ovidiu-florin: most of the time an estimate on your trip's cost is all we need17:52
dholbachwe've gotten much much better at responding quickly17:52
mhall119ovidiu-florin: and we can (and do) adjust what is paid when things like ticket prices change17:52
dholbachok... shall we move on and have a chat with the Membership Board?17:53
ovidiu-florinso far I've always payed for the plane ticket myself well in advance of the event, and apply for reinbursment the same day,17:53
ovidiu-florinthis way avoiding to make big expences17:54
ovidiu-florinin the ~ 2 weeks it takes to get aproval the ticket may grow another 100€17:54
ovidiu-florindepends on the company and the destination17:54
ovidiu-florinand the timeframe17:54
mhall119ovidiu-florin: if you apply first with a rough estimate, we can at least approve it and then either pay you before you purchase, or hold off on paying you until after, we just would like to be able to say "yes this is a valid use of this money" or "No, this isn't a valid use of this money" before people commit to it17:55
ovidiu-florinIMO there are many cases when we can show the Bill, and from previous fundings, to asume they are ok17:55
dholbachif we can't book flights for events well in advance, I think that's just what has to happen here :/17:55
czajkowskimhall119: you did say it's like a 10 day 2 week turn around or less rught ?17:55
czajkowskiyou meet every week and it's on the topic17:55
mhall119czajkowski: typically, but not always17:55
cprofittI think we are a bit in the weeds on this particular issue. We are looking in to the specifics to make sure there is both more transparency and that it is easier for community members to make use of the funds. We have to ensure the program is also manageable from Canonical's side as well.17:55
mhall119ovidiu-florin: if you said "the ticket is going to be between 1000 and 1500 euro", we can work with that17:56
cprofittIt might be best to move on to the other scheduled topic though.17:56
mhall119right, ovidiu-florin you can join #ubuntu-community-team or email us directly if you want17:56
Riddellone more question: There seems to be no community mailing list for Ubuntu to discuss community issues.  Can we make one?17:56
Riddelldholbach: is everyone welcome and encouraged to subscribe to that?17:57
popeyannounced on ubuntu-devel 6 months ago. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2014-September/001110.html17:57
pleia2of course17:57
dholbachof course17:57
Riddellah hah17:57
dholbachwhen did Ubuntu ever have mailing lists that didn't invite people?17:58
czajkowskiright moving on17:58
czajkowskias we're really out of time17:58
czajkowskimembership board...17:58
dholbachyes, czajkowski: thanks17:58
PabloRubianesIm here17:58
czajkowski#topic Membership board catch up17:58
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Membership board catch up
czajkowskiPabloRubianes: aloha :D17:58
PabloRubianesHello CC17:58
elfyhi PabloRubianes17:58
PabloRubianesczajkowski: hello17:58
dholbachhey PabloRubianes17:58
dholbachhow are things?17:58
ahoneybunhey PabloRubianes17:59
PabloRubianesI think that some are fine17:59
PabloRubianeswe had no much of problems17:59
dholbachhow is the Membership board? did we get a couple more nominations?17:59
PabloRubianeswe are having some issues to get people to the nominations17:59
PabloRubianespleia2: helped us with that17:59
dholbachcan we all take an action to each think of somebody who could nominate themselves17:59
dholbachand then twist their arms to actually nominate themselves? :)18:00
* mhall119 goes to poke jcastro about it again18:00
czajkowskimhall119: poke prod bribe you know the usual wiht jcastro :)18:00
mhall119I'll just promise him a charm for something18:01
elfyPabloRubianes: how many do you think are still needed? or perhaps how many do you have?18:01
mhall11914:00 < jcastro> I will do that now18:01
PabloRubianeselfy I have to check as I believe many of us (not me) are expiring18:02
pleia2I'd also like to encourage the whole CC to reach out to people they think are potential good candidates :)18:02
elfyPabloRubianes: 7 expire18:02
pleia2speaking from experience, it means a lot when a sitting board/council member asks someone if they'd be willing to participate in the board18:02
PabloRubianeswe have 6 nominies18:02
czajkowskipleia2: sure18:02
elfyPabloRubianes: excluding jcastro ?18:02
PabloRubianeson the mailing list we have 618:03
* mhall119 can confirm pleia2's statement, that's why I'm here :)18:04
elfyfunnily enough ...18:05
czajkowskiPabloRubianes: is there anything else we can do to help ?18:05
PabloRubianesczajkowski: I think we are OK, maybe less people came to get the membership18:06
elfyyea - someone mentioned that to me18:06
PabloRubianescomparing to a few years ago18:06
pleia2yeah, that's been a trend we've been noticing for a couple years18:06
czajkowskiPabloRubianes: I think people don't think they can go for it18:06
elfynot sure what can be done about it18:06
PabloRubianesI think community as a whole is way less activ18:06
dholbachin the last time we pinged a couple of folks who applied for community funds18:06
czajkowskiI've chatted to a few folks who are very helpful on irc on ubuntu-uk none thought they could ge tit18:06
czajkowskiyet spend their day on irc helping people18:07
dholbachbecause we felt "they've been around for ages, they should apply" :)18:07
pleia2based on announcements from meetings, it doesn't seem to be getting considerably worse (based on 2 years ago, definitely worse than 5 years ago)18:07
czajkowskipeople need to be encouraged18:07
czajkowskiI'd ask eveyrone to talk to people in their community, irc, forums and talk to them about memberhsip18:07
czajkowskiwhat it entails18:07
czajkowskioffer to help with the wiki18:07
czajkowskileave a testimonial etc18:07
czajkowskiso they know they can do it if encouraged18:07
sgclarkwe have been pushing for memberships in our Loco18:08
PabloRubianesczajkowski: I think that before that we need to get new people to the community18:08
dholbachsgclark, nice one18:08
dholbachlocos are usually good for that, because you can remind folks everytime you meet up :)18:08
* mhall119 has been pleased to see many of our new app developer community seeking and gaining membership18:08
PabloRubianesi think that is the issue here, not much new people18:08
* czajkowski pokes popey go poke the ubuntu-uk team :)18:09
PabloRubianesmhall119: I recall some of them18:09
dholbachwe're chatting in #ubuntu-locoteams about it too now18:09
dholbachok... so we should probably chat tomorrow or some other time again and figure out together who else should be nominated :)18:11
ahoneybundholbach: nominated?18:11
* mhall119 proposes a small Perl script that randomly selects Ubuntu members and places them on boards without their consent18:12
czajkowskiright ok anything else from membership board?18:12
dholbachahoneybun, should nominate themselves :)18:12
ahoneybundholbach: for what?18:12
sgclarklol mhall11918:12
* ahoneybun was scared to asked18:12
dholbachahoneybun, I was looking for a word like "voluntold" :)18:12
dholbachahoneybun, oh sorry... we're talking about the Ubuntu Membership Board18:12
ahoneybunoh ok cool18:12
mhall119ahoneybun: you should apply for the Membership board18:12
dholbachahoneybun, some members are having their end of term quite soon18:12
dholbachso we're looking for nominations18:12
* genii gets a random email notifying him he's now on an Ubuntu board18:12
* genii glares at mhall11918:13
PabloRubianesahoneybun: we are nice people, join us :P18:13
ahoneybunmhall119: not sure if I'm up to par18:13
* mhall119 pretty sure you are18:13
* dholbach too :)18:13
* mhall119 is reminded to leave a testimonial for ahayzen's membership application18:13
ahoneybunwow I got 3 votes already lol18:14
dholbachmhall119, ah yes, have the link again?18:14
sgclarkgo ahoneybun!18:14
mhall119dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ahayzen18:14
dholbachthanks mhall11918:14
mhall119It's been open in a tab for days now, a silent shameful reminder that I haven't done it yet18:14
* ahoneybun will leave a tesimonial as well18:14
dholbachso... if you're interested, here's http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2015/03/15/ubuntu-membership-board-call-for-nominations-extended/18:14
dholbachdo we have anything else we need to talk about?18:14
* mhall119 has nothing18:14
PabloRubianesThanks for your time18:15
dholbachPabloRubianes, anything else from the Membership boards?18:15
dholbachPabloRubianes, anything we should look into?18:15
PabloRubianesand help looking of people to join!18:15
dholbachmhall119, we should talk about the membership board in the next Q&A18:15
PabloRubianesdholbach: no, is ok!18:15
* dholbach hugs PabloRubianes18:15
* ahoneybun trys to apply for membershit18:15
pleia2thanks PabloRubianes18:15
czajkowskiwhat a typo :)18:16
mhall119lol, well now you've lost it18:16
elfyok - so if there's nothing else from Membership Board?18:16
czajkowski#topic AOB18:16
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
czajkowskianything else folks18:16
Laneydid you get my email about voting rules?18:16
elfyLaney: yes we did18:16
czajkowskiLaney: we did  Scott did reply18:16
czajkowskihe is the man of the voting18:17
dholbachyes, but I didn't get around to replying yet18:17
Laneynot to me18:17
ahoneybunI did it again when typing the email lol18:17
czajkowskilemmie go and poke him18:17
pleia2czajkowski: discussion has just be in the CC so far18:17
Laneyit's not a secret18:17
* mhall119 replied18:17
Laneywould appreciate devel-permissions being kept in the thread18:17
pleia2Laney: indeed, I didn't realize we hadn't kept you in the loop, sorry18:17
Laneysomeone should go bounce the emails18:17
* pleia2 just noticed now18:17
dholbachall right... I've got to run now18:17
dholbachhave a great rest of your day - thanks everyone!18:18
mhall119bye dholbach18:18
ahoneybun22:00 is...18:18
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Mar 19 18:18:41 2015 UTC.18:18
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-19-17.01.moin.txt18:18
=== davidcalle_ is now known as davidcalle

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