[15:01]  * slangasek waves
[15:01] <robru> o/
[15:01]  * stgraber waves
[15:01]  * cyphermox waves
[15:01] <caribou> o/
[15:02] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[15:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 19 15:02:08 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:02] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:02] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
[15:02] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
[15:02] <slangasek> bdmurray cyphermox doko sil2100 jodh mvo stgraber barry slangasek infinity caribou robru
[15:02] <slangasek> bdmurray: tag
[15:02] <bdmurray> investigation into daisy bug LP: #1431796 (only one thread in ThreadStacktace)
[15:02] <bdmurray> fixed errors bug LP: #1431796 (not displaying threadstacktrace)
[15:02] <bdmurray> resolved issues with whoopsie-preferences upstream branch (out of date and changes not uploaded to vivid)
[15:02] <bdmurray> tested gunicorn change of worker_class from gevent to sync to resolve too many interim responses issue
[15:03] <bdmurray> updated daisy-charm with worker_class change for gunicorn
[15:03] <bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy charm updated so we can test worker_class change in staging
[15:03] <bdmurray> tested / worked with webops regarding gunicorn worker_class changes (seems good)
[15:03] <bdmurray> fixed an issue with the way daisy returned EoL error message and worker_class = sync
[15:03] <bdmurray> searched for strange stacktrace endings
[15:03] <bdmurray> tested DayBucketProposedCounts for recording crashes from -proposed users
[15:03] <bdmurray> updated oops-repository package in daisy-pluckers PPA (DayBucketsProposedCount)
[15:03] <bdmurray> submitted RT regarding updating oops-repository and daisy on staging
[15:03] <bdmurray> submitted merge proposal regarding component-mismatches svg (show team name)
[15:03] <bdmurray> worked on component-mismatch improvements (showing uploader)
[15:03] <bdmurray> uploaded apport SRU to enable automatic crash reporting from Trusty (LP: #1431058)
[15:03] <bdmurray> investigation into apport bug LP: #1300235 (chromium-browser crashes reported about init)
[15:03] <bdmurray> submitted apport merge proposal fixing apport part of bug LP: #1300235
[15:03] <bdmurray> verified that bug LP: #1419061 is fixed
[15:03] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[15:03] <cyphermox>  * reviewing/testing installer multipath patches in bug 1430074
[15:03] <cyphermox>  * upload partman-base, partman-multipath, grub-installer with multipath fixes
[15:03] <cyphermox>  * testing and review for post-boot multipath delays and issues:
[15:03] <cyphermox>    - Multipath devices take long to initialize during initramfs (bug 1431650)
[15:03] <cyphermox>    - system drops to initramfs after install on multipath disk (bug 1429327)
[15:03] <cyphermox>    - Ship the default /etc/multipath.conf on multipath-tools-boot (bug 1432062)
[15:04] <cyphermox> ^ I got some good results last night with changes to the multipath-tools udev rules
[15:04] <cyphermox>  * reviewed urfkill pull request to fix new issues with flight mode and WWAN.
[15:04] <cyphermox>  * silo for urfkill
[15:04] <cyphermox>  * patch for NM connection selection bug, wrong context for IMSI (bug 1431471)
[15:04] <cyphermox> (done)
[15:04] <doko> meh, still difference in summer time ... (I'll go last, and will be forgotten ...)
[15:05] <slangasek> hmm :)
[15:05] <slangasek> sil2100 is off sick
[15:05] <slangasek> jodh:
[15:05] <jodh> * snappy
[15:05] <jodh>   - lp:~jamesodhunt/snappy/logger
[15:05] <jodh>     - Reworked after further review, including new tests.
[15:05] <jodh>     - Created packaging branch for the juju "loggo" golang logger,
[15:05] <jodh>       required for the snappy logger branch:
[15:05] <jodh>       https://github.com/jamesodhunt/loggo.git
[15:05] <jodh>   - Reworked lp:~jamesodhunt/snappy/privileged-operations (also with new tests).
[15:05] <jodh> * upstart
[15:05] <jodh>   - Bug 1429756
[15:05] <jodh>     - Collaborated with apw.
[15:05] <jodh>     - Lots of testing.
[15:05] <jodh>     - Wrote a C program + test script that surfaces the timing issue without
[15:05] <jodh>       upstart+libnih: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/1429756/comments/13
[15:06] <jodh>     - Tested on a 3.18, 3.19 and modified 3.19 kernels.
[15:06] <jodh> ວ໌
[15:06] <mvo> apt:
[15:06] <mvo> - Debug http errors on azure with smoser
[15:06] <mvo> - Look into size tracking bug (#777565)
[15:06] <mvo> - Merge debian/sid fixes for vivid and FFe (#1431877)
[15:06] <mvo> - New 1.0.9.7ubuntu1 uplaod (matches the debian 7 version)
[15:06] <mvo> - Trusty SRU for #1429041
[15:06] <mvo> software-center:
[15:06] <mvo> - debug/fix install issue with aftershot pro2 from the store
[15:06] <mvo> - identify a bunch of similra incorrect meta-data for apps in the
[15:06] <mvo>   store that prevents installing them and fix them
[15:06] <mvo> snappy:
[15:06] <mvo> - native build and unpack landed in snappy-go, major step in
[15:06] <mvo>   reducing the external dependencies
[15:06] <mvo> - lots of features, fixes, cleanup
[15:06] <mvo> - package/upload golang-ar
[15:06] <mvo> - discuss/implement new hashes support
[15:06] <mvo> - look into oem snap dtb handling
[15:06] <mvo> software-properties:
[15:06] <mvo>   Help Brian with software-properties-gtk questions
[15:06] <mvo> misc:
[15:06] <mvo> - trainguard duty
[15:06] <mvo> - performance review
[15:06] <mvo> (done)
[15:06] <stgraber>  - LXC/LXD
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Released LXC 1.1.1 on Monday
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Released LXD 0.4 on Tuesday
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Various bugfixes and feature work on LXC and LXD
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Code reviews, bug triaging, other admin paperwork
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Now working on 0.5, due Tuesday (bugfix release)
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Looked into a LXC security issue (related to Seccomp)
[15:06] <stgraber>    - Still waiting on LXD-related FFes (archive is currently on barely usable LXD 0.1)
[15:07] <stgraber>  - system-image
[15:07] <stgraber>    - code reviews (some more to do this week too)
[15:07] <stgraber>  - Other
[15:07] <stgraber>    - Booked travel to Austin sprint
[15:07] <stgraber> (done)
[15:07] <barry> qa sprint
[15:07] <barry> (done)
[15:09] <infinity> slangasek: ?
[15:09] <barry> slangasek: back to you
[15:09] <slangasek> was still reading scrollback ;)
[15:09] <barry> and mine was so short! :)
[15:10] <slangasek>  * snappy: working on the developer story, how to cross-build a snap
[15:10] <slangasek>  * review season continues, look for 1:1 invites coming soon
[15:10] <slangasek>  * spent a bit of time on proposed-migration stalls, fixing maas (bug #1433697) to unblock syslinux and removing some never-gonna-build packages that are broken in Debian unstable
[15:10] <slangasek>  * worked with robru on debugging uci-engine bootstrap issues
[15:10] <slangasek>  * sprint planning: we have a date and a location
[15:10] <slangasek>  * discussions with IBM about multipath-related bugs for 15.04
[15:10] <slangasek> (done)
[15:10] <infinity> * Lots more glibc mangling, should be uploading today
[15:10] <infinity> * Wrangle some transitions out of proposed
[15:10] <infinity> * Work with didrocks (after a conversation with xnox) on restructuring the upstart package split
[15:10] <infinity> * General AA and SRU things
[15:10] <infinity> * Argue with Canonical VPN configs
[15:10] <infinity> * Discussions with Colin/William about bugcontrol versus series nomination
[15:10] <infinity> * Work on planning the vivid release sprint
[15:10] <infinity> (done)
[15:11] <caribou> Bugfix :
[15:11] <caribou>  - Investigating rsyslog memory leak on Trusty : running stress tests
[15:11] <caribou>    * Noticed small leak (~27Mb) on trusty (got help from infinity)
[15:11] <caribou>    * Running stress tests to reproduce (need to open bug for this one)
[15:11] <caribou>  - Instance left in dying state : setting Havana test environment
[15:11] <caribou> Continued work on backport of runlevel S kdump fix over trusty for testing
[15:11] <xnox> infinity: note that smoser opened critical - that ADT testing fails as it tries to boot things with upstart, whilst systemd-sysv is installed and that fails.
[15:11] <caribou> Preparation for CTS sprint
[15:11] <caribou> sosreport juju plugin enhancement
[15:11] <caribou> Need to book travel before CTS sprint
[15:11] <xnox> infinity: marked as duplicate of the master bug.
[15:11] <caribou> (done)
[15:11] <robru> * CI Train
[15:11] <robru>   - Implemented 'dirty silo' notification -- when one silo is published/merged, other silos containing conflicting packages are marked dirty so that people know not to QA them until they've been rebuilt
[15:11] <robru>   - Rewrote migration job from scratch with 100% test coverage, bringing the overall total test coverage up from 85% to 90%
[15:11] <robru>   - various tweaks and improvements in error reporting, logging, pylint cleanups
[15:11] <robru>   - significantly improved the clarity of the error message for the case when you try to publish a silo that contains a package that hasn't been built yet.
[15:11] <robru>   - cleaned up the code that generates package diffs (code used to call debdiff 3 different times 3 different ways, now it just calls it once and processes the output 3 different ways as necessary)
[15:11] <robru> * lp:cupstream2distro-config
[15:11] <robru>   - dropped some transitional flags that haven't been used in nearly a year, shrinking the size of the entire project by 1/6th
[15:11] <robru> * CI Engine
[15:11] <robru>   - continuing to bumble through deployment issues, not much luck.
[15:11] <robru> (done)
[15:12] <infinity> xnox: You have bug numbers?  I was basing this work on our conversation, not on actual reported bugs.
[15:12] <xnox> infinity: yes, we have bugs =) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/1422681
[15:12] <infinity> xnox: Ta.
[15:13] <xnox> infinity: note that bug report has irc log pastes in it ;-)
[15:13] <infinity> xnox: Even better.
[15:13] <xnox> infinity: well, paraphrased.
[15:13] <xnox> smoser: links to _actual_ logs in the duplicate bug.
[15:13] <slangasek> robru: dirty silo notifications> great!  btw, I guess there's still nothing that prevents two conflicting silos being submitted to QA in parallel, even though only one of these will be published?
[15:13] <slangasek> robru: which flags were transitional?
[15:13] <slangasek> caribou: your turn
[15:14] <caribou> slangasek: done already
[15:14] <doko> before somebody forgets me ...
[15:14] <doko> - finally updated openjdk-8
[15:14] <doko> - look at firefox ftbfs on arm64, reduce test case, file issue
[15:14] <doko> - look at linux ftbfs on ppc64el, gcc dropping -m32 (but why do we need 32bit support)
[15:14] <doko> - test ceph bugfix on armhf
[15:14] <doko> - fix auto pkg test for kde packages
[15:14] <doko> - migrations, vivid ftbfs fixes, ...
[15:14] <doko> - more GCC 5 work
[15:14] <slangasek> caribou: oh yes, failing to read my list (or scrollback) sorry
[15:14] <robru> slangasek: indeed, nothing is in place to stop two built silos from going to QA in parallel; QA will have to just know not to QA the same package in two different silos. but once one gets published the other is immediately marked dirty
[15:15] <caribou> slangasek: np
[15:15] <robru> slangasek: and the transitional flags were 'daily_release: False' and 'use_stack_ppa: False', ancient stuff from way way back when ci train was first brought online.
[15:15] <slangasek> robru: interesting, thanks
[15:16] <robru> slangasek: note that lp:cupstream2distro-config is different (and currently unrelated to) lp:cupstream2distro
[15:16] <slangasek> oh, ok
[15:17] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:17] <slangasek> anything else?
[15:17] <robru> slangasek: they were related pre-train but they've diverged since the train went online.
[15:18] <slangasek> anyone with spare cycles could put them to use on helping to get the archive in shape for 15.04: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20150202-vivid.html http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
[15:18] <slangasek> a lot of packages stuck in -proposed right now
[15:19] <infinity> Looking forward to the relaxation of build failure hunting once I'm done with other tasks.
[15:20] <slangasek> :)
[15:20] <barry> indeed :)
[15:22] <slangasek> ok, sounds like that's it then
[15:22] <slangasek> get your travel requests in for the sprint! :)
[15:22] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[15:22] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 19 15:22:17 2015 UTC.
[15:22] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-19-15.02.moin.txt
[15:22] <slangasek> thanks all
[15:22] <jodh> thanks!
[15:22] <caribou> thanks slangasek
[15:22] <mvo> thanks
[15:22] <barry> thanks!
[15:22] <doko> slangasek, everytime I ask for help with MIR's and bugs, I get the answer that nobody has time. it's a bit frustrating
[15:22] <bdmurray> oh, I was too slow
[15:23] <bdmurray> mvo: any ideas about bug 1432172?
[15:24] <slangasek> bdmurray: fwiw there was discussion about dpkg's new behavior wrt triggers on the Debian side, I believe for jessie the dpkg behavior has been rolled back
[15:24] <slangasek> you should be able to find references to this on debian-devel
[15:25] <bdmurray> slangasek: ah, okay
[15:27] <mvo> bdmurray: let me check
[15:27] <mvo> bdmurray: and yes, what slangasek said, it sounds a lot like the trigger change
[17:00] <Riddell> CC meeting?
[17:00] <Riddell> elfy et al?
[17:01] <dholbach> hiya
[17:01] <pleia2> o/
[17:01] <pleia2> just gathering other members
[17:01] <dholbach> mhall119, elfy, cprofitt, czajkowski: around?
[17:01] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[17:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 19 17:01:46 2015 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:01] <czajkowski> aloha
[17:01] <cprofitt> hello all
[17:02] <dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Kubuntu Council
[17:02] <dholbach> #chair pleia2 czajkowski cprofitt
[17:02] <meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach pleia2
[17:02] <dholbach> hey Riddell - how are you doing? did you bring anyone else from the Kubuntu Council? :)
[17:02] <Riddell> Mamarok is here from kubuntu council and ahoneybun a useful kubuntu person is here
[17:02] <dholbach> brilliant
[17:03] <Riddell> and here's sgclark another useful kubuntu person
[17:03] <dholbach> how are thing going? how are the preparations for 15.04 going?
[17:03] <Riddell> 15.04 is going to rock
[17:03] <sgclark> hi all
[17:03] <Riddell> it's out 10th anniversary and the headlines are going wild
[17:03] <pleia2> glad to hear it :)
[17:03] <pleia2> welcome sgclark
[17:03] <Riddell> I think we may crash twitter when we launch
[17:03] <dholbach> :-))
[17:03] <pleia2> Riddell: hehe
[17:03] <Riddell> first distro with Plasma 5, it's going to be the year of the linux desktop at last
[17:04] <dholbach> is the kubuntu testing squad happy with the the new release too? :)
[17:05] <Riddell> they seem to be, some issues with systemd but surisingly few given the change
[17:05] <dholbach> yeah... I was quite surprised too how smooth the transition went
[17:06] <dholbach> somebody mentioned daily image builds being broken for a day or something
[17:06] <Riddell> they're broken on virtualbox
[17:06] <Riddell> which is an issue in X that I see in ubuntu unity too
[17:06]  * mhall119 is here now
[17:06] <dholbach> #chair mhall119
[17:06] <meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia2
[17:07] <dholbach> Riddell, do you know if a bug is open for it?
[17:07] <mhall119> Riddell: congrats on 10 years of Kubuntu, btw, that's an amazing milesgtone
[17:07] <Riddell> we have bug 1432343, was going to ask pitti if there was another one
[17:08] <dholbach> Riddell, you could try to ping LocutusOfBorg1 about it - he's maintaining virtualbox in debian and ubuntu (if anything needs to be done there)...
[17:08] <dholbach> ah ok
[17:08] <dholbach> looks like you're well covered there :)
[17:09] <mhall119> Riddell: how have things gone coordinating Qt releases in 15.04 between KDE's and Unity's needs?
[17:10] <Riddell> mhall119: that seems to have gone well, Mirv and mitya57 are on #k-d and we chat about updates, they're pleasingly responsive
[17:10] <mhall119> great
[17:11] <mhall119> how about Wayland integration, is Plasma 5 going to use it?
[17:11] <Riddell> it will but probably not for the next LTS
[17:12] <dholbach> do you have a special build for it or something like that for testers or curious folks?
[17:12] <Riddell> no it's still in development upstream, nothing very usable yet
[17:12] <Riddell> but we do have kci
[17:12] <Riddell> kubuntu continuous integration
[17:12] <Riddell> that builds packages every day
[17:12] <Riddell> and weekly ISOs from it
[17:12] <dholbach> oh nice... what happens in kci?
[17:12] <Riddell> so Plasma and other KDE developers can always test the latest and greatest
[17:12] <dholbach> what do you build and/or test there?
[17:13] <shadeslayer> dholbach: more or less all of Plasma/ KF5 and some apps
[17:13] <shadeslayer> dholbach: all of these projects are built http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-kde/ci-tooling.git/tree/data/projects.json
[17:13] <shadeslayer> ( except the custom_ci bits )
[17:13] <Riddell> we are also sharing out packaging repositories with Debian now
[17:13] <dholbach> does any gatekeeping happening there as well?
[17:13] <Riddell> so much less duplicate work all around
[17:14] <dholbach> like "build it, run tests, if they fail, your change won't get in"?
[17:14] <Riddell> gatekeeping?
[17:14] <shadeslayer> dholbach: some what, sitter is working on keeping a eye and fixes things as they break
[17:14] <dholbach> ok, so Sitter is the gatekeeper, I see :)
[17:14] <shadeslayer> I still need to write some code to run autotests separately ( only in build tests are run at the moment )
[17:15] <shadeslayer> more or less :P
[17:15] <dholbach> how do you feel Kubuntu is doing community wise? did you approve some new members recently?
[17:15] <shadeslayer> we are in #kubuntu-ci if you want to look at colored jenkins output :P
[17:16] <dholbach> shadeslayer, I'm usually happy enough if I *don't* get mail or any notification of jenkins :-P
[17:16] <shadeslayer> ;)
[17:17] <Riddell> the community is doing ok, we had 1 new member this year and plenty of people hang around.  it's not as active as it used to be and is probably overly dependent on me
[17:17] <dholbach> but yeah, I think it's absolutely fantastic that you're doing a lot in the CI world - it pays off so quickly
[17:17] <shadeslayer> I don't think not having new people is a bad sign per se, I've had people IM me and send me messages on Forums saying that they love Kubuntu
[17:18] <dholbach> Riddell, do you feel there are a lot of things which only you can do in the project?
[17:18] <shadeslayer> so, the developer community is most certainly becoming a bit stale :(
[17:19] <Riddell> oh sure the user community are lovely and not a day goes by when I don't get people excited about 15.04
[17:19] <dholbach> shadeslayer, sure... the people who actually decide to get involved, read the docs and take the plunge are very much the tip of the iceberg of all *ubuntu lovers
[17:19] <shadeslayer> *nod*
[17:19] <Riddell> I don't think there's anything only I can do, it's just a question of hours
[17:19] <mhall119> where do you think we can reach new potential Kubuntu developers? From the rest of the Ubuntu community, or from upstream KDE community?
[17:20] <Riddell> kubuntu users probably
[17:20] <shadeslayer> I agree
[17:21] <mhall119> are there any initiatives to convert users into developers/contributors?
[17:21] <Riddell> only that I grab people whenever they show interest and offer them tutorial and handholding
[17:22] <mhall119> So the Ubuntu Online Summit is coming up soon, I know Kubuntu hasn't used it much for planning, but it might be a good time and place to host instructional sessions for this purpose
[17:22] <mhall119> kind of a "How to become a Kubuntu Developer"
[17:23] <Riddell> possibly, I always find UOS hard to motivate myself by, we have real life meetings which work an aweful lot better
[17:23]  * mhall119 is going to be looking for some Kubuntu members to be track leads again too
[17:23] <sgclark> heh
[17:23] <sgclark> I failed miserably at that
[17:23] <mhall119> Riddell: understood, the Kubuntu sessions in the last two UOSes seemed very popular though
[17:24] <mhall119> sgclark: I'm going to try and recruit you again, so I wouldn't say that :)
[17:24] <dholbach> since it's after the release, you could probably do a feedback or Q&A round
[17:24] <sgclark> lol
[17:24] <Riddell> ah here's ovidiu-florin, he's working on a nice new website for us
[17:24] <pleia2> cool
[17:24] <ovidiu-florin> hello
[17:25] <mhall119> hey ovidiu-florin
[17:25]  * ovidiu-florin was hoping to stay unnoticed
[17:25] <dholbach> that's brilliant - it's really nice to get to know the entire team :-))
[17:26] <dholbach> mhall119, maybe we could invite the Kubuntu team to one of the next Community Q&A sessions?
[17:26] <ovidiu-florin> what are we talking about?
[17:26] <mhall119> +1
[17:26] <dholbach> cool :)
[17:26] <pleia2> ovidiu-florin: user community participation in kubuntu, among other things :)
[17:26] <dholbach> ovidiu-florin, regarding the Q&A session or in general?
[17:27] <shadeslayer> dholbach: that would be cool indeed
[17:27]  * mhall119 just heard shadeslayer volunteer
[17:27] <dholbach> I'd love to see a demo of what's new in kubuntu land
[17:27] <shadeslayer> mhall119: I'm volunteering me and Riddell xD
[17:27] <Mamarok> sorry, I had to finish some urgent work, but am reading now
[17:27]  * mhall119 just heard Riddell voluntold
[17:27] <dholbach> that might also be a good opportunity to recruit new kubuntu folks :)
[17:27] <ovidiu-florin> dholbach: in general
[17:28] <ovidiu-florin> dholbach: both actually
[17:28] <dholbach> ovidiu-florin, this meeting is an opportunity for the Kubuntu Council and Community Council to catch up
[17:28] <dholbach> ovidiu-florin, we do this once a cycle to see how things are going
[17:28] <dholbach> the Q&A session mhall119 and I mentioned happens once a week on http://ubuntuonair.com/
[17:28] <dholbach> usually we have lots of people from ubuntu social media channels who ask all kinds of questions
[17:29] <dholbach> and it's nice to have guests there who can show off something
[17:29] <dholbach> or answer questions in their area of expertise
[17:29] <shadeslayer> I have to go for spanish class, hasta luego :)
[17:29] <dholbach> shadeslayer, enjoy! :)
[17:30] <Mamarok> :)
[17:30]  * Mamarok wonders why he doesn't learn Catalan instead...
[17:30] <dholbach> I'll drop Riddell and shadeslayer a mail about the Q&A and we can have a look at the calendar together
[17:30] <dholbach> does anyone have any more questions?
[17:31]  * Riddell does
[17:31] <dholbach> shoot
[17:31] <ovidiu-florin> with a 9 mm
[17:31] <Riddell> http://www.ubuntu.com/legal/terms-and-policies/intellectual-property-policy still says "Otherwise you... will need to recompile the source code to create your own binaries." this is untrue and disrespectful to the copyright owners, who are Ubuntu's upstream communities
[17:31] <Riddell> I have been hilighting this for over a year and the community council has done nothing about it. It is hurting Kubuntu development. The communitiy council needs to make a firm statement that this is untrue and that in the spirit of free software they welcome derivatives.
[17:32] <mhall119> we certainly haven't done nothing
[17:32] <mhall119> in fact, it's consumed quite a bit of our time and efforts over the same year
[17:32] <czajkowski> Riddell: to be clear we've raised it to canonical legal
[17:32]  * ovidiu-florin has a question as well
[17:32] <Riddell> czajkowski: that doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, time to just take a stand
[17:32] <dholbach> Where do you see Kubuntu development hurt?
[17:32] <mhall119> Riddell: can you go into detail about how it is hurting Kubuntu development?
[17:33] <czajkowski> and from there it;s kinda hit a wall  we are talking to rickspencer in the coming weeks and will ask for it to be pushed again
[17:33] <Riddell> dholbach: shadeslayer used to be working full time on Kubuntu, now he's not
[17:33] <Riddell> czajkowski: best stop giving in to their stalling and just make a statement
[17:33] <czajkowski> Riddell: it's not about taking a stand , it's about getting it corrected/ cleared up for all parties.
[17:33] <dholbach> Riddell, I'm not sure I understand
[17:33] <czajkowski> Riddell: that's not how the CC operates.
[17:33] <dholbach> Riddell, is this an immediate effect of Ubuntu trademarks?
[17:33] <Riddell> dholbach: is what?
[17:34] <mhall119> shadeslayer: has the trademark/ip question caused you problems with your employment?
[17:34] <czajkowski> Riddell: can you give us an example where this has stopped someone from contributing to Kubuntu.
[17:34] <dholbach> Riddell, shadeslayer working fulltime on Kubuntu
[17:34] <Riddell> shadeslayer has gone
[17:34] <dholbach> I'm not quite sure I follow
[17:34] <Mamarok> he just left for his Spanish lesson
[17:34] <Riddell> czajkowski: I refer the honourable lady to the answer I gave some moments ago
[17:34] <Riddell> dholbach: what don't you follow?
[17:34] <mhall119> ok, we can follow up with him via email
[17:34] <Riddell> why not just deal with the problem rather than the symptoms?
[17:35] <Mamarok> why taking this to mail, can't this be cleared here? Riddell can exmplain
[17:35] <mhall119> Riddell: the CC has limited ability to "just deal with the problem"
[17:35]  * ogra_ always thought this stanza only refers to out of archive builds ... which kubuntu definitely doesnt fall under
[17:35] <dholbach> Riddell, you said the policy hurts kubuntu development, then you mention Rohan not working on Kubuntu fulltime any more - I was just wondering if the two were connected
[17:35] <Riddell> mhall119: make a public statement saying it is untrue and irrelevent
[17:35] <mhall119> Mamarok: Riddell: is shadeslayer okay with you going into detail about his employment situation?
[17:35] <Riddell> dholbach: yes they are
[17:36] <dholbach> ok, I'm afraid I don't understand
[17:36] <mhall119> Riddell: the CC is not qualified to make legal statements like that, and even if we were they would have no legal authority as we do not own the IP in question
[17:36] <Riddell> mhall119: that's irrelevent.  canonical doesn't own the copyrights either. that's the whole point.
[17:36] <Riddell> dholbach: what don't you understand?
[17:36] <dholbach> the connections
[17:36] <dholbach> the connection
[17:37] <mhall119> Riddell: they are the ones making the claim, so again the CC doesn't have any standing to make claims one way or the other
[17:37] <Riddell> dholbach: blue systems is worried that canonical will want to restrict derivates and so shadeslayer got moved to other tasks
[17:37] <mhall119> Riddell: has Blue Systems contacted Canonical about this?
[17:37] <Riddell> mhall119: yes it does, it is the ubuntu council, it can make a claim on ubuntu's behalf
[17:37] <dholbach> where are derivatives restricted?
[17:37] <elfy> sorry - was late getting away - hi Kubuntu people
[17:37] <dholbach> we all live in the same archive
[17:37] <dholbach> #chair elfy
[17:37] <meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach elfy mhall119 pleia2
[17:37] <mhall119> IIRC, Mint was given a very favorable agreement to clear this up
[17:37] <czajkowski> Riddell: the CC can't control what tasks shadeslayer is moved onto.
[17:38] <Riddell> dholbach: 17:31 < Riddell> http://www.ubuntu.com/legal/terms-and-policies/intellectual-property-policy still says "Otherwise you... will need to recompile the source code to create your own binaries." this is untrue and  disrespectful to the copyright owners, who are Ubuntu's upstream communities
[17:38] <Riddell> czajkowski: no but it can address the symptoms
[17:38] <Riddell> mhall119: mint did not have to make an agreement at all
[17:38] <dholbach> right, I read that the first time - I might need more detail to understand the connection between all of this
[17:38] <czajkowski> Riddell: nobody outside of their own employment can deal with that tbh let alone the CC
[17:39] <Riddell> dholbach: if canonical claims the packages in the archive are not infact free software and are restricted in use then people will not want to work with them
[17:39] <Riddell> czajkowski: you could deal with the reasons for it
[17:40] <Riddell> I'm astonished that the CC doesn't understand the basics of free software or how it can be harmed by claims that our software is not Free
[17:40] <dholbach> they are free software, no doubt about that - IANAL, but all Canonical asks for is a conversation, if you intend to use the Ubuntu trademark commercially and ship Ubuntu in a modified sense
[17:40] <pleia2> Riddell: you're being really unfair to us (and I think you know that)
[17:40] <mhall119> Riddell: the CC has been dealing with is, and are continuing to do so. If you are okay with us doing what we feel is best for Ubuntu we will keep doing that. But it means you'll have to accept what we end us doing.
[17:40] <dholbach> but as Kubuntu is a derivative and lives in the same archive.......... where's the problem?
[17:41] <pleia2> we've worked for over a year on this, more than any other topic, but our influence over Canonical is limited
[17:41] <czajkowski> Riddell: we have spent a lot of time on this and spent time raising this to the legal dept in canonical
[17:41] <dholbach> Ubuntu is free software
[17:41] <Laney> what if Blue Systems wants to ship a modified version of Kubuntu?
[17:41] <Riddell> dholbach: kubuntu is not a derivative.  we do care about our derivatives and this harms them.
[17:41] <Riddell> pleia2: so make a public statement that it is untrue
[17:41] <Laney> or if $random_person does for that matter
[17:41] <dholbach> Riddell, sorry, a flavour then
[17:41] <Laney> this clause says that they have to recompile it all
[17:42] <Riddell> czajkowski: so time to give up on the canonical legal dept, they have been stalling for a year, enough already
[17:42] <Riddell> Laney: yes.  that is not true and it is dangerous.
[17:42] <mhall119> Laney: or work within the archives as Kubuntudoes
[17:42] <czajkowski> Riddell: you keep asking us to make a statement and we've already said we wont do that not until we hear from Canonical leagal on the matter
[17:42] <Riddell> czajkowski: ok, see you in another year then.
[17:42] <Riddell> mhall119: or not.  it's their choice.  that's free software.
[17:43] <czajkowski> Riddell: you're really making this harder than needs be, you'd swear the CC sit around doing nothing
[17:43] <czajkowski> we've put a lot of effort into this
[17:43] <czajkowski> and yes it hasn't been easy
[17:43] <Riddell> czajkowski: what has changed in the last year?
[17:43] <czajkowski> nor have we gotten to the bottom of it yet
[17:43] <czajkowski> but we are at least trying
[17:43] <mhall119> Riddell: do you want the CC do handle this, or do you want the CC to just come to a specific conclusion that you've already come to?
[17:44] <Mamarok> mayber it's the fact that we got no feedback on it so far, and the legal departement obviously doesn't want to do anything about it
[17:44] <Riddell> mhall119: I want the CC to give up on canonical legal who are clearly not interested in fixing it and make a statement that it is untrue.
[17:44]  * ovidiu-florin has a question as well, please don't forget
[17:44] <mhall119> Riddell: and if the CC doesn't agree with that statement?
[17:44] <cprofitt> Riddell: In order to make a public statement on a legal matter the CC would have to have a legal expert familiar with international law and the laws of several countries. I do not feel qualified to make any such public statement. I also would like to say that public thrashing about on the topic does not help the situation either.
[17:44] <Riddell> cprofitt: that's just making excuses
[17:45] <Mamarok> cprofitt: doesn't affect international law, it affects the Free Software licenses IMHO, but IANAL
[17:45] <Riddell> mhall119: than make one you do agree on, but don't let someone claim Ubuntu is not Free software
[17:45] <Riddell> anyway this is going nowhere again, let's move on
[17:45] <mhall119> Mamarok: how that license is applied depends to a large extent on the law in the place it is tried
[17:46] <cprofitt> Riddell: I do not see it as an excuse Riddell, but I would like to ask you to be more respectful of the people trying to sort through the issue.
[17:46] <dholbach> This is a trademarks/IP issue and you know that Canonical has to be protective of the trademarks - that the success of Ubuntu and Canonical are connected. Kubuntu has lots of freedoms, like everyone else who works in the archive. When modified versions of *Ubuntu are still called *Ubuntu, that can be a problem. It'll be hard to get a "carte blanche" in this area.
[17:46] <dholbach> Or are we talking about a different issue?
[17:47] <Riddell> dholbach: it's a copyright issue
[17:47] <cprofitt> We are trying to do what is right through the channels we have. Just because I have not gotten a timely response I will not make statements I can not make in good faith.
[17:47] <Riddell> cprofitt: ok, see you next year.
[17:47] <mhall119> Riddell: if Blue Systems or shadeslayer have been specifically impacted by this issue, I would encourage them to talk directly to the CC also so that we can have that additional information to take to Canonical legal
[17:47] <elfy> I think that we should move on and see what ovidiu-florin has - we've also got the Membership Board
[17:47] <dholbach> right
[17:47] <cprofitt> elfy: I agree
[17:48]  * ovidiu-florin is affraid to ask
[17:48] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: don't be :)
[17:48] <ovidiu-florin> can I ask here/now about the Ubuntu community fund?
[17:48] <cprofitt> Riddell: Thanks for your understanding and patience.
[17:48] <dholbach> ovidiu-florin, what's your question?
[17:48] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: you can, but we are scheduling a meeting to get more information from Canonical about it, so we may not be able to answer everything today
[17:49] <elfy> ovidiu-florin: we're actually looking into that currently - we have a meeting later
[17:49] <ovidiu-florin> I'm not asking about aproval for my request
[17:49] <ovidiu-florin> I want to ask abouot an issue that I understand from Riddell that there's a topic somewhere about this
[17:49] <dholbach> can you be more specific?
[17:50]  * ovidiu-florin is typing
[17:50] <ovidiu-florin> Why can't we apply for funds for expences that we already had? For the many cases when we can't forsee what expenses we will have?
[17:50] <cprofitt> ovidiu-florin: there is a topic that Riddell has raised. I am not sure we can call it an issue yet, but there may be one. We are researching that and discussing with the Canonical Community team.
[17:51] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: so that's more of a question for the Community Team, but I can answer it
[17:51] <ovidiu-florin> You can't always predict the costs for a trip, or an event
[17:51] <elfy> ovidiu-florin: that is the issue that we're currently sorting out - we'll not be able to do anything now
[17:51] <dholbach> Just estimate.
[17:51] <elfy> and Riddell knows that we're looking into it
[17:51] <dholbach> we don't want people to be in a position where they just assume "oh, this'll be paid for"
[17:52] <dholbach> and then end up having to pay because of misunderstandings or other issues
[17:52] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: the primary reason is because we don't want people to be out of money if we don't approve. If somebody spends money, then asks tobe paid back, but the use wasn't a valid use, we'll have to tell them know and now they are personally hurt (financially) by it
[17:52] <dholbach> it'll also help planning and budgeting
[17:52] <ovidiu-florin> For example, I can make a request for the travel expenses, but bu the time they get acecpted, The price of the plane ticket may have doubled.
[17:52] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: most of the time an estimate on your trip's cost is all we need
[17:52] <dholbach> we've gotten much much better at responding quickly
[17:52] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: and we can (and do) adjust what is paid when things like ticket prices change
[17:53] <dholbach> ok... shall we move on and have a chat with the Membership Board?
[17:53] <ovidiu-florin> so far I've always payed for the plane ticket myself well in advance of the event, and apply for reinbursment the same day,
[17:54] <ovidiu-florin> this way avoiding to make big expences
[17:54] <ovidiu-florin> in the ~ 2 weeks it takes to get aproval the ticket may grow another 100€
[17:54] <ovidiu-florin> depends on the company and the destination
[17:54] <ovidiu-florin> and the timeframe
[17:55] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: if you apply first with a rough estimate, we can at least approve it and then either pay you before you purchase, or hold off on paying you until after, we just would like to be able to say "yes this is a valid use of this money" or "No, this isn't a valid use of this money" before people commit to it
[17:55] <ovidiu-florin> IMO there are many cases when we can show the Bill, and from previous fundings, to asume they are ok
[17:55] <dholbach> if we can't book flights for events well in advance, I think that's just what has to happen here :/
[17:55] <czajkowski> mhall119: you did say it's like a 10 day 2 week turn around or less rught ?
[17:55] <czajkowski> you meet every week and it's on the topic
[17:55] <mhall119> czajkowski: typically, but not always
[17:55] <cprofitt> I think we are a bit in the weeds on this particular issue. We are looking in to the specifics to make sure there is both more transparency and that it is easier for community members to make use of the funds. We have to ensure the program is also manageable from Canonical's side as well.
[17:56] <mhall119> ovidiu-florin: if you said "the ticket is going to be between 1000 and 1500 euro", we can work with that
[17:56] <cprofitt> It might be best to move on to the other scheduled topic though.
[17:56] <mhall119> right, ovidiu-florin you can join #ubuntu-community-team or email us directly if you want
[17:56] <Riddell> one more question: There seems to be no community mailing list for Ubuntu to discuss community issues.  Can we make one?
[17:56] <dholbach> https://lists.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-community-team
[17:57] <mhall119> ^^
[17:57] <Riddell> dholbach: is everyone welcome and encouraged to subscribe to that?
[17:57] <dholbach> ?
[17:57] <popey> announced on ubuntu-devel 6 months ago. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2014-September/001110.html
[17:57] <pleia2> of course
[17:57] <dholbach> of course
[17:57] <popey> -announce
[17:57] <Riddell> ah hah
[17:57] <Riddell> lovely
[17:58] <dholbach> when did Ubuntu ever have mailing lists that didn't invite people?
[17:58] <czajkowski> right moving on
[17:58] <dholbach> ....
[17:58] <czajkowski> as we're really out of time
[17:58] <czajkowski> membership board...
[17:58] <dholbach> yes, czajkowski: thanks
[17:58] <PabloRubianes> Im here
[17:58] <PabloRubianes> :)
[17:58] <czajkowski> #topic Membership board catch up
[17:58] <czajkowski> PabloRubianes: aloha :D
[17:58] <PabloRubianes> Hello CC
[17:58] <elfy> hi PabloRubianes
[17:58] <PabloRubianes> czajkowski: hello
[17:58] <dholbach> hey PabloRubianes
[17:58] <dholbach> how are things?
[17:59] <ahoneybun> hey PabloRubianes
[17:59] <PabloRubianes> I think that some are fine
[17:59] <PabloRubianes> we had no much of problems
[17:59] <PabloRubianes> but
[17:59] <dholbach> how is the Membership board? did we get a couple more nominations?
[17:59] <PabloRubianes> we are having some issues to get people to the nominations
[17:59] <dholbach> ok
[17:59] <PabloRubianes> pleia2: helped us with that
[17:59] <dholbach> can we all take an action to each think of somebody who could nominate themselves
[18:00] <dholbach> and then twist their arms to actually nominate themselves? :)
[18:00]  * mhall119 goes to poke jcastro about it again
[18:00] <czajkowski> mhall119: poke prod bribe you know the usual wiht jcastro :)
[18:01] <mhall119> I'll just promise him a charm for something
[18:01] <elfy> PabloRubianes: how many do you think are still needed? or perhaps how many do you have?
[18:01] <mhall119> 14:00 < jcastro> I will do that now
[18:01] <mhall119> \o/
[18:02] <PabloRubianes> elfy I have to check as I believe many of us (not me) are expiring
[18:02] <pleia2> I'd also like to encourage the whole CC to reach out to people they think are potential good candidates :)
[18:02] <elfy> PabloRubianes: 7 expire
[18:02] <pleia2> speaking from experience, it means a lot when a sitting board/council member asks someone if they'd be willing to participate in the board
[18:02] <PabloRubianes> we have 6 nominies
[18:02] <czajkowski> pleia2: sure
[18:02] <elfy> PabloRubianes: excluding jcastro ?
[18:03] <PabloRubianes> yeap
[18:03] <PabloRubianes> on the mailing list we have 6
[18:03] <elfy> ok
[18:04]  * mhall119 can confirm pleia2's statement, that's why I'm here :)
[18:05] <elfy> funnily enough ...
[18:05] <czajkowski> lol
[18:05] <czajkowski> PabloRubianes: is there anything else we can do to help ?
[18:06] <PabloRubianes> czajkowski: I think we are OK, maybe less people came to get the membership
[18:06] <elfy> yea - someone mentioned that to me
[18:06] <PabloRubianes> comparing to a few years ago
[18:06] <pleia2> yeah, that's been a trend we've been noticing for a couple years
[18:06] <czajkowski> PabloRubianes: I think people don't think they can go for it
[18:06] <elfy> not sure what can be done about it
[18:06] <PabloRubianes> I think community as a whole is way less activ
[18:06] <dholbach> in the last time we pinged a couple of folks who applied for community funds
[18:06] <czajkowski> I've chatted to a few folks who are very helpful on irc on ubuntu-uk none thought they could ge tit
[18:06] <PabloRubianes> active*
[18:07] <czajkowski> yet spend their day on irc helping people
[18:07] <dholbach> because we felt "they've been around for ages, they should apply" :)
[18:07] <pleia2> based on announcements from meetings, it doesn't seem to be getting considerably worse (based on 2 years ago, definitely worse than 5 years ago)
[18:07] <czajkowski> people need to be encouraged
[18:07] <czajkowski> I'd ask eveyrone to talk to people in their community, irc, forums and talk to them about memberhsip
[18:07] <czajkowski> what it entails
[18:07] <czajkowski> offer to help with the wiki
[18:07] <czajkowski> leave a testimonial etc
[18:07] <czajkowski> so they know they can do it if encouraged
[18:08] <sgclark> we have been pushing for memberships in our Loco
[18:08] <PabloRubianes> czajkowski: I think that before that we need to get new people to the community
[18:08] <dholbach> sgclark, nice one
[18:08] <dholbach> locos are usually good for that, because you can remind folks everytime you meet up :)
[18:08]  * mhall119 has been pleased to see many of our new app developer community seeking and gaining membership
[18:08] <PabloRubianes> i think that is the issue here, not much new people
[18:08] <sgclark> yep
[18:09]  * czajkowski pokes popey go poke the ubuntu-uk team :)
[18:09] <PabloRubianes> mhall119: I recall some of them
[18:09] <popey> wat?
[18:09] <dholbach> we're chatting in #ubuntu-locoteams about it too now
[18:11] <dholbach> ok... so we should probably chat tomorrow or some other time again and figure out together who else should be nominated :)
[18:11] <czajkowski> ok
[18:11] <ahoneybun> dholbach: nominated?
[18:12]  * mhall119 proposes a small Perl script that randomly selects Ubuntu members and places them on boards without their consent
[18:12] <czajkowski> right ok anything else from membership board?
[18:12] <dholbach> ahoneybun, should nominate themselves :)
[18:12] <ahoneybun> dholbach: for what?
[18:12] <sgclark> lol mhall119
[18:12]  * ahoneybun was scared to asked
[18:12] <dholbach> ahoneybun, I was looking for a word like "voluntold" :)
[18:12] <ahoneybun> XD
[18:12] <dholbach> ahoneybun, oh sorry... we're talking about the Ubuntu Membership Board
[18:12] <ahoneybun> oh ok cool
[18:12] <mhall119> ahoneybun: you should apply for the Membership board
[18:12] <dholbach> ahoneybun, some members are having their end of term quite soon
[18:12] <dholbach> so we're looking for nominations
[18:12]  * genii gets a random email notifying him he's now on an Ubuntu board
[18:13]  * genii glares at mhall119
[18:13] <PabloRubianes> ahoneybun: we are nice people, join us :P
[18:13] <PabloRubianes> hehehe
[18:13] <ahoneybun> mhall119: not sure if I'm up to par
[18:13]  * mhall119 pretty sure you are
[18:13]  * dholbach too :)
[18:13] <ahoneybun> :)
[18:13] <pleia2> ++
[18:13]  * mhall119 is reminded to leave a testimonial for ahayzen's membership application
[18:14] <ahoneybun> wow I got 3 votes already lol
[18:14] <mhall119> lol
[18:14] <dholbach> mhall119, ah yes, have the link again?
[18:14] <sgclark> go ahoneybun!
[18:14] <ahoneybun> 4
[18:14] <mhall119> dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ahayzen
[18:14] <dholbach> thanks mhall119
[18:14] <mhall119> It's been open in a tab for days now, a silent shameful reminder that I haven't done it yet
[18:14]  * ahoneybun will leave a tesimonial as well
[18:14] <dholbach> so... if you're interested, here's http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2015/03/15/ubuntu-membership-board-call-for-nominations-extended/
[18:14] <dholbach> do we have anything else we need to talk about?
[18:14]  * mhall119 has nothing
[18:15] <PabloRubianes> Thanks for your time
[18:15] <dholbach> PabloRubianes, anything else from the Membership boards?
[18:15] <dholbach> PabloRubianes, anything we should look into?
[18:15] <PabloRubianes> and help looking of people to join!
[18:15] <dholbach> mhall119, we should talk about the membership board in the next Q&A
[18:15] <dholbach> :)
[18:15] <PabloRubianes> dholbach: no, is ok!
[18:15] <popey> +1
[18:15]  * dholbach hugs PabloRubianes
[18:15]  * ahoneybun trys to apply for membershit
[18:15] <ahoneybun> *ship
[18:15] <ahoneybun> darn
[18:15] <elfy> lol
[18:15] <pleia2> thanks PabloRubianes
[18:16] <PabloRubianes> HAHAH
[18:16] <czajkowski> what a typo :)
[18:16] <mhall119> lol, well now you've lost it
[18:16] <elfy> ok - so if there's nothing else from Membership Board?
[18:16] <czajkowski> #topic AOB
[18:16] <czajkowski> anything else folks
[18:16] <Laney> did you get my email about voting rules?
[18:16] <dholbach> haha
[18:16] <elfy> Laney: yes we did
[18:16] <czajkowski> Laney: we did  Scott did reply
[18:17] <czajkowski> he is the man of the voting
[18:17] <dholbach> yes, but I didn't get around to replying yet
[18:17] <Laney> not to me
[18:17] <ahoneybun> I did it again when typing the email lol
[18:17] <czajkowski> lemmie go and poke him
[18:17] <pleia2> czajkowski: discussion has just be in the CC so far
[18:17] <Laney> it's not a secret
[18:17]  * mhall119 replied
[18:17] <Laney> would appreciate devel-permissions being kept in the thread
[18:17] <pleia2> Laney: indeed, I didn't realize we hadn't kept you in the loop, sorry
[18:17] <Laney> someone should go bounce the emails
[18:17]  * pleia2 just noticed now
[18:17] <dholbach> all right... I've got to run now
[18:18] <dholbach> have a great rest of your day - thanks everyone!
[18:18] <mhall119> bye dholbach
[18:18] <ahoneybun> 22:00 is...
[18:18] <czajkowski> #endmeeting
[18:18] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 19 18:18:41 2015 UTC.
[18:18] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-03-19-17.01.moin.txt