[01:14] <diddledan> what's the command to monitor network connections?
[01:15] <daftykins> for what kinda thing?
[01:15] <daftykins> like netstat?
[01:30] <diddledan> to monitor the conections as they come and go
[01:31] <daftykins> hrmm i must not know
[02:14] <intrbiz> diplo: iftop ?
[02:18] <jussi> good morning all
[02:20] <nigelb> morning jussi
[02:20] <jussi> how are you nigelb?
[02:21] <nigelb> jussi: still waking up :)
[02:21] <nigelb> but yay wednesday.
[02:44] <mapps> raining here
[02:44] <mapps> booo
[02:46] <mapps> what a depressing burger i had
[02:46] <mapps> wish there was more choice for food late at night
[03:05] <jussi> mapps: its called a kitchen.... :P
[03:06] <mapps> yea
[03:06] <mapps> but then washing up
[03:06] <mapps> ugh
[03:06] <mapps> and i cant cook well..i make fairly basic stuff
[03:06] <mapps> reminds me i should go out for a roast dinner sometime
[03:06] <mapps> #havent had one for years
[06:24] <diddledan> yawning
[06:25]  * zmoylan-pi is scratching
[07:53] <elfy> morning
[08:10] <knightwise> morning peeps
[08:51] <knightwise> hey everyone
[08:54] <knightwise> taking elementary linux (the new beta) out for a spin
[08:54] <knightwise> doenst look that bad at first sight
[09:16] <davmor2> Morning all
[09:17] <foobarry> knightwise: i use it every day all day
[09:17] <knightwise> hey davmor2
[09:17] <knightwise> foobarry: its pretty good , i put the 12.04 based version on my wifes iMac
[09:17] <knightwise> she loved it
[09:17] <foobarry> nice and fast, good workflow with synapse installed
[09:17] <knightwise> didn"t notice it wasnt osx
[09:18] <foobarry> do osx still do that nasty global menu thing
[09:18] <knightwise> yep ,
[09:18] <foobarry> its an abomination
[09:18] <knightwise> OSX is starting to become more frustrating to work with as a power user
[09:19] <knightwise> although I must say , the more I become an expert in the cross platform computing thing the less I notice what OS i'm actually one.
[09:19] <knightwise> on.
[09:19] <foobarry> unless its unity
[09:19] <foobarry> then you definitely notice
[09:19] <knightwise> Currently running Freya as a VM on top of OSX in fullscreen mode, SSH'd into my Pi for irssi and using Google inbox for mail and chay
[09:19] <directhex> i can't use osx as a "power user"
[09:19] <knightwise> to my the actual OS is becoming more and more trivial
[09:19] <directhex> we hatses it
[09:20] <bashrc_> I didn't think OSX was designed for power users, but then I've never used it myself
[09:20]  * zmoylan-pi installs os/2 on knightwise's system just to see the expression on their face... :-)
[09:20] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: if it has SSH and a browser i'm set
[09:21] <knightwise> bashrc_: when I do videoproductions and stuff I rely heavily on OSX, there is no way to do stuff like that in Linux or windows
[09:21] <knightwise> but for all the rest ?
[09:22] <knightwise> OS irrelevant
[09:22] <knightwise> I guess I like to go with what is light and looks pretty
[09:22] <knightwise> hence elementary, Ubuntu Mate and Chromixium as my current VM's of choice
[09:22]  * zmoylan-pi installs win vista on knightwise's system...
[09:23] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: I don't mind windows at all , I just wish they had a decent terminal client
[09:23] <knightwise> Vista is slow .. not my preferred choice , but 10 is pretty nice !
[09:25] <directhex> i prefer windows to osx
[09:25] <foobarry> i prefer not having to choose :D
[09:25]  * zmoylan-pi hands out pitchforks and torches to mob... one each please
[09:26] <directhex> my work laptop is a macbook. boots ubuntu primarily
[09:26] <knightwise> I love apple hardware (and the fact you can sell it second hand for a good price)
[09:27] <zmoylan-pi> their laptops do last an average students time at college...
[09:27] <knightwise> directhex: I have the 15 inch macbook pro. Damn good machine. Expensive but it is the main investment for my company so ...
[09:27] <zmoylan-pi> i'm not sure if it's better build or treated better by student as it's a prestige item thing though...
[09:28] <directhex> 13" - i don't need to carry a surfboard around with me
[09:28] <zmoylan-pi> you use public transport directhex?
[09:28] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10676264/ this is a dead disk isn't it?
[09:29] <knightwise> directhex: i also wanted to go with the 13 inch , but the 15 inch has a quad-core I7 , so I need that for final cut pro
[09:29] <directhex> zmoylan-pi: when i travel internationally
[09:29] <directhex> model name	: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4558U CPU @ 2.80GHz
[09:29] <directhex> popey: try swapping the sata cable first, but it might be
[09:29] <knightwise> directhex: thats a dual core I7
[09:30] <directhex> oh, true
[09:30] <directhex> hyparthreads!
[09:30] <knightwise> if you do final cut pro edits .. DA PowAh is Required
[09:31] <knightwise> http://www.phc.nl/kennis/phc-tv/ (2 productions I did for a client) ..
[09:31] <knightwise> its in dutch so you won't understand shit
[09:31] <popey> usb cable...
[09:31] <popey> its a sata enclosure
[09:31] <popey> tried two enclosures
[09:32] <directhex> popey: well, it might be the usb-sata chip in the enclosure, not the disk itself
[09:32] <directhex> oh
[09:32] <directhex> bumpoo
[09:32] <popey> yeah
[09:45] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:45] <zmoylan-pi> morning mammals
[09:47] <knightwise> brobostigon: there IS intelligent life on this planet after all
[09:47]  * zmoylan-pi hums the galaxy song in retort to that
[09:48] <brobostigon> knightwise: oh yes, :)
[09:50] <knightwise> i had my doubts there for a moment .. with zmoylan-pi trying to install Vista on my computer and all
[09:51] <zmoylan-pi> well someone has to be punished so that we'll remember how bad it is :-)
[09:51] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: i agree
[09:51] <knightwise> but i'm not going to be a marter :p
[09:51] <foobarry> martyr?
[10:02] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Tolkien Reading Day! :-D
[10:03] <zmoylan-pi> shouldn't it be tolkein reading week as all books are huge?
[10:03] <foobarry> "All 650 MPs will be given an iPad Air 2 and a laptop in the wake of the general election in May."
[10:03] <foobarry> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/11493656/All-650-MPs-to-receive-iPad-Air-2-and-laptop-post-election.html
[10:04] <knightwise> talk about self-service
[10:04] <zmoylan-pi> since they always make deals with ms shouldn't they be punished with windows 8 laptops and winphone tablets? :-)
[10:11] <zmoylan-pi> windows rt tablets would be ideal for them...
[10:12] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: that is just pure evil
[10:12] <zmoylan-pi> well they are government...
[10:12] <knightwise> who was using elementary again on a daily basis ?
[10:12] <knightwise> do you notice Chrome likes to freeze up ?
[10:13] <foobarry> hello
[10:13] <TwistedLucidity> knightwise: it was foobary
[10:13]  * foobarry waves
[10:13]  * zmoylan-pi surfs
[10:13] <foobarry> i have no issues
[10:13] <foobarry> check adblock is updated
[10:13] <foobarry> and dns is ok
[10:13] <foobarry> and RAM is free
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> Doens't adblock increase the load?
[10:14] <foobarry> no,
[10:14] <foobarry> try visiting the independent web page without adblock and we'll talk
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> Seem to recall reports that it increased RAM/CPU usage
[10:14] <knightwise> ok might be addblock
[10:17] <davmor2> JamesTait: /me plays the hobbit and LOTR cds to celebrate
[10:18] <foobarry> hmm this seems bad timing lidl
[10:18] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: This is what I was thinking of
[10:18] <TwistedLucidity> https://blog.mozilla.org/nnethercote/2014/05/14/adblock-pluss-effect-on-firefoxs-memory-usage/
[10:18] <foobarry> http://www.lidl.co.uk/en/our-offers-2491.htm?action=showDetail&id=21886
[10:18] <foobarry> TwistedLucidity: yes some affect, but ads on a lot of sites murder your browser
[10:18] <TwistedLucidity> They murder my eyes, never mind the browser!
[10:18] <knightwise> nope its not addblock
[10:19] <foobarry> TwistedLucidity: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/a-45minute-power-nap-can-boost-your-memory-fivefold-study-finds-10128456.html
[10:19] <TwistedLucidity> When sites have muted/non-flashing adverts that are based solely on the site/page content (i.e. no privacy invasion)...then they'll be let through
[10:20] <foobarry> smooth scrolling be gone!
[10:20] <davmor2> foobarry, popey: So if your hudl2 start losing time press vol up + vol down + power till it shuts of and then power it back on, apparently there is a bug where it loses 17minutes an hour but only on certain models, the volume thing just resets the android cache so it fetched the right time again :)
[10:20] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: And yet USAians will wake up in the middle of the night to answer emails from their mobile so they can be seen as hardworking.
[10:21] <foobarry> my comment was more about the ads...
[10:21] <foobarry> small strip of text
[10:21] <foobarry> and wall of animated ads
[10:21] <TwistedLucidity> I see no adverts
[10:21] <TwistedLucidity> Network blocks FTW!
[10:21] <foobarry> i have a post lunch nap at weekends
[10:21] <foobarry> its glorious
[10:24] <TwistedLucidity> OK, I now see *one* dating advert and some ijobs thing. Also spotted a few other ad-related URLs coming down.
[10:24]  * TwistedLucidity makes note to update blocks
[10:25] <foobarry> knightwise: also ensure that chrome has exited
[10:25] <knightwise> checking. might be that too
[10:25] <foobarry> i change the setting that aloows it to run in background
[10:25] <foobarry> i hate that they do that
[10:26] <knightwise> been playing with the new google inbox
[10:26] <knightwise> must say : I don't dislike it at all
[10:26] <popey> huh, interesting davmor2, I've not seen that here. Maybe when I dropped mine, I fixed it :)
[10:26] <TwistedLucidity> "*amazon-adsystem.com" should kill most of them
[10:26] <TwistedLucidity> popey: What kind of battery life do you get on it?
[10:27] <popey> dunno, mostly plugged in on my desk
[10:27] <popey> longest I had was transatlantic flight
[10:27] <popey> maybe 9 hours
[10:27] <popey> playing video constantly
[10:27] <TwistedLucidity> That's not too shabby. Is it hackable?
[10:28] <foobarry> its not even openable without a razor
[10:28] <TwistedLucidity> Ah...so installing a different OS is going to be...fraught
[10:28] <davmor2> popey: it is only on certain models so you might of got a batch before it happened
[10:29] <TwistedLucidity> Whatever happened to colour e-ink I wonder?
[10:29] <popey> sadly x86 based tablets are not very hackable
[10:29] <knightwise> I played with that phone that has an epaper display on the back and a regular screen on the front
[10:29] <popey> ironically the Microsoft Surface is more hackable than Android tablets / phones
[10:29] <knightwise> the Yotaphone
[10:30] <knightwise> The surface is a dream if you run ubuntu on it
[10:30] <zmoylan-pi> a knightmare if you don't :-)
[10:30] <foobarry> weird and unpredictable? thats what my dreams are like
[10:31] <knightwise> its my favorite knightmare ?
[10:31] <knightwise> knight-mare :p
[10:31] <knightwise> foobarry: you dream of thong-sporting furries
[10:32] <foobarry> last night i dreamt i was on a night out in islington and bumped into my mate who had brought a whole delicatessen counter with him, featuring various cuts of meat
[10:33]  * zmoylan-pi sticks fingers in ears and starts chanting la-la-la-la
[10:33] <popey> i had a dream last night where I was busting for the toilet
[10:34] <popey> I woke up
[10:34] <popey> and I was busting for the toilet
[10:34] <popey> That is about the extent of my dreams.
[10:34] <knightwise> popey: its called lucid dreaming to the extreme
[10:34] <popey> They don't need much in the way of interpretation.
[10:35] <knightwise> dump /dev/null
[10:35] <foobarry> lol
[10:35] <davmor2> I never remember my dreams
[10:35] <popey> every so often I am reminded of http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/10/ubuntu-installer-for-nexus-7-tablet-made-available-for-devs#comment-693710478 which always makes me smile
[10:36] <davmor2> I probably dream of ways of breaking JamesTait 's spirit or ubuntu or something :D
[10:36] <popey> wait, he has spirit!?
[10:36] <popey> mug him!
[10:36] <zmoylan-pi> today is NOT JamesTait's day! \o/ :-P
[10:36] <davmor2> popey: he did have I broke it in my dreams
[10:37] <davmor2> popey: also it was spirit not spirits, no point mugging him till he has at least one bottle of Whiskey
[10:37] <JamesTait> popey, it's the only thing that gets me through the day. ;)
[10:41] <davmor2> JamesTait: is beuno aware of your drinking issue?
[10:42] <JamesTait> davmor2, I don't have an issue with drinking. I can drink perfectly well!
[10:42] <zmoylan-pi> after that it's all a blur...
[10:43] <davmor2> JamesTait: Hic
[10:44]  * davmor2 can picture JamesTait getting away with HHHonest hoccifer I only had one drinnk
[10:45] <zmoylan-pi> have you seen my keg?
[11:40] <foobarry> how does one change the passphrase for whole encrypted disk?
[11:40] <foobarry> so much misinfo on various wikis and stacks
[11:44] <popey> didnt know you could do that without a re-install
[11:44] <foobarry> oh :-|
[11:46] <awilkins> Naah, sure you can
[11:46] <awilkins> * dpending on disk encryption
[11:47] <zmoylan-pi> just make sure you have a few good backups before testing... :-)
[11:47] <foobarry> full disk enc
[11:47] <awilkins> Doesn't it have like 15 slots for keys so changing the passphrase just copies the key to another slot encrypted with that phrase?
[11:47] <awilkins> Changing the KEY, that's another matter
[11:48] <directhex> yeah, that's itr
[11:48] <directhex> you can change the password. let me find the syntax
[11:49] <popey> nice
[11:49] <popey> worth knowing.
[11:49] <directhex> oh, apparently it's in the GUI on 14.04+
[11:49] <directhex> run Disks, click cog -> change passphrase
[11:49] <popey> so it is!
[11:49] <popey> guess you need a live cd/usb to do that
[11:50] <directhex> not IME
[11:50] <directhex> iirc
[11:50] <popey> hmm, it's greyed out here
[11:50] <popey> i thought because it's mounted
[11:50] <directhex> huh, maybe it is then
[11:50] <directhex> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[11:51] <popey> IKR
[11:51] <foobarry> lolz
[11:52] <foobarry> thanks, that gives me something to work on
[11:53] <directhex> it's cryptsetup LuksChangeKey under the hood
[11:54] <directhex> change key in one slot, delete key in old slot
[11:54] <directhex> probably works
[11:54] <zmoylan-pi> ...probably...
[12:40] <ujjain> is ocado cheap because its online-onlhy?
[12:44] <davmor2> ujjain: NO ocado is just Waitrose delivery aiui so it won't be cheap
[13:37] <DJones> If anybody is looking at getting an ubuntu phone https://twitter.com/ubuntu/status/580718582662823936/photo/1 Another flash sale tomorrow
[13:43] <ujjain>  davmor2, ah, that explains, seemed expensive
[13:44] <popey> ocado > *
[13:49] <foobarry> i recall a story where a well educated nigerian guy moves to UK, and asks a friend what a good newspaper to read is
[13:49] <foobarry> friend says "the sun". so this gentleman reads the semi literate boob filled rag so considerable time thinking this is quality english newspaper
[13:50] <foobarry> didn't really check for himself
[13:50] <zmoylan-pi> i thought builders read it as it had 1) sports results 2) cheap 3) very absorbent in portaloos
[13:50] <foobarry> 4) boobs
[13:51] <foobarry> bbc news app fulfils 1,2
[13:51] <zmoylan-pi> i don't think that was considered a factor, mind i think they got rid of page 3 in ireland a fair few years back
[13:51] <foobarry> i've heard many people quote point 4) as their primary reason
[13:51] <foobarry> didn't they ditch it here too recently, or were they trolling?
[13:52] <zmoylan-pi> i've heard 1,2 + 3 as primary reasons from builders
[13:52] <zmoylan-pi> they trolled the uk by not having it for a few days
[13:54] <foobarry> must have been those days the builders never turned up at my house
[14:09] <Myrtti> so that's the tale of Jeremy Clarkson then.
[14:13] <zmoylan-pi> some other station will snap him up
[14:13] <zmoylan-pi> 1 million people signed a petition to take him back _after_ he assaulted the producer.
[14:14] <ali1234> thus proving why democracy doesn't work
[14:14] <zmoylan-pi> demoracy is the worst of all systems, till you look at all the other systems...
[14:16] <foobarry> what heppened? cameron announcned clarkson to succeed him as PM?
[14:16] <ali1234> no, the system where we pretend to have democracy but actually both choices are the same is far better
[14:16] <foobarry> clarkson should get into politics
[14:17] <Myrtti> why? tories have plenty of politicians that think exactly like Clarkson already
[14:17] <foobarry> if chris evans gets to be presenter i'm ripping up my printed email of my tv licence
[14:18] <Myrtti> we got a UKIP candidates letter in our mailbox the other day. I was surprised when the hubby went directly to the garden to burn it.
[14:18] <zmoylan-pi> you should switch to proportional representation, then you'll know what chaos is in a democracy :-)
[14:28] <awilkins> First Past The Post is not democratic enough
[14:28] <zmoylan-pi> 2 men enter, 1 man leave would make great reality tv... :-P
[14:28] <foobarry> is tina turner still going?
[14:29] <awilkins> Saw a TED talk which proposed the notion of a political party who actually had in it's manifesto that it would only do stuff that had a democratic mandate
[14:29] <foobarry> November 26, 1939 (age 75)
[14:29] <Myrtti> move all the elections using the same model as the MEP elections
[14:29] <awilkins> Measured by online polling of policies...
[14:30] <awilkins> Electronic voting is something I oppose, but I also acknowledge that something like it would be the only practical way of having proper democracy
[14:30] <zmoylan-pi> punch card voting forms would do the trick for quicker voting.  we can have working punch cards unlike florida
[14:30] <awilkins> I oppose electronic voting because it's a system that's way too open to abuse but closed to inspection - only a small fraction of 1% of the population could actually audit a computerised election
[14:31] <directhex> i approve of electronic voting, and disagree with computerized or online voting
[14:31] <directhex> india's machines work great
[14:31] <Myrtti> I have absolute no faith electronic voting what so ever.
[14:31] <awilkins> Naah, pencil/paper
[14:31] <Myrtti> all the implementations I've seen have been major clusterfailures
[14:31] <awilkins> i) Someone of average intelligence understands it well enough to spot fraud
[14:32] <awilkins> ii) Counting paper votes scales well - just add more people.
[14:32] <directhex> india's implementation has a great security record compared to the US's
[14:32] <foobarry> the problem with party politics is evidenced in this chan
[14:32] <foobarry> 1 person = 1 different opinion
[14:32] <awilkins> iii) As a bonus, adding more people makes it more fraud-resistant
[14:32] <foobarry> awilkins: see bethnal green for large scale voting fraud
[14:32] <zmoylan-pi> ireland spent about €50m on electronic voting before it was abandoned.
[14:35] <foobarry> surely its the way of things eventually?
[14:35] <awilkins> foobarry, Yeah - they detected it though, didn't they
[14:36] <zmoylan-pi> nope. the process has to be visible to many and be seen to be tamper resistant.  current methods work ok-ish. electronic versions do not
[14:36] <foobarry> awilkins: not really
[14:37] <foobarry> there were more votes cast than residents
[14:37] <awilkins> foobarry, the fact that you're telling me about the fraud, means it was detected...
[14:37] <foobarry> this is related but a different story
[14:37] <foobarry> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11382160/Judge-to-see-forensics-that-point-to-Tower-Hamlets-vote-fraud.html
[14:38] <foobarry> "Yesterday the Mail visited one four-bedroom flat in the area where 18 men are apparently claiming a vote, all of whom registered within the past month.
[14:38] <foobarry> The students living there were baffled by many of the names said to be residing with them. Another resident was surprised to learn that eight complete strangers were also registered as living in the small flat she shares with her partne"
[14:39] <awilkins> The more complex you make an electronic voting system, the fewer people can successfully audit it
[14:39] <foobarry> they don't have man power or desire to check
[14:39] <awilkins> Yes, that's electoral roll fraud though
[14:40] <awilkins> It is a) already managed electronically b) easy to check
[14:40] <awilkins> Electronic management of electoral rolls, yes
[14:40] <awilkins> Electronic vote counting, no
[14:40] <Myrtti> so many issues that would possibly be solved to have an automatic electronic electoral roll.
[14:41] <Myrtti> well, national registry in general
[14:41] <awilkins> The fact that they are not checking it properly is just incompetence, especially since an electronic electoral roll is cheaper to check than a paper on
[14:41] <awilkins> Checking an electronic vote tabulation system OTOH is harder than keeping a distributed set of mark I eyeballs on a paper one
[14:42] <awilkins> Yes, because it's central and electronic, it ought to be cheaper
[14:42] <awilkins> But that also is a weakness, because it makes it cheaper to nobble your auditors
[14:43] <awilkins> When only a small priesthood of technocrats can audit your system, it's much cheaper to buy them off/spoof them/deliberately find incompetent ones
[14:43] <awilkins> You can have all the effects of widespread voting fraud with much less cost and effort
[14:50] <ali1234> the problem is that very few people will actually audit anything regardless of how easy it is
[15:04] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[15:04] <intrbiz> bigcalm: morning
[15:04] <dutchie> lo bigcalm
[15:04] <bigcalm> From bq: "We are writing to inform you that you have received or are about to receive your order via the UPS courrier service." Trust it to be delivered when nobody is at home. I hope my neighbours are in a good mood today
[15:07] <zmoylan-pi> some form of pit under the welcome mat to slow them down...
[15:07] <directhex> hm
[15:08] <directhex> if you were going to go to a website which told you about different steamos community projects and forks, without any valve trademarks in the url, what would you say was a good choice of url?
[15:08] <bigcalm> No
[15:10] <foobarry> directhex: what are the trademarks? valve, steam , steamos, and all their games?
[15:10] <Myrtti> communityfog
[15:10] <directhex> foobarry: yes
[15:10] <Myrtti> although fog can be corrupted into nasties
[15:10] <bigcalm> 134 packages can be updated.
[15:10] <bigcalm> 88 updates are security updates.
[15:10] <foobarry> h2osmium
[15:10] <bigcalm> I forgot about my parent's server :(
[15:11] <foobarry> bit contrived :P
[15:13] <foobarry> directhex: maybe find a type of valve that functions as a fork/splitter
[15:14] <popey> bigcalm: sounds like you need landscape :)
[15:14] <directhex> hm. fumecupboard.org is free.
[15:14]  * popey logs into landscape now and then and presses the "update them all" button
[15:14] <bigcalm> popey: haven't considered it to be worth the expense
[15:14] <popey> its free
[15:14] <popey> for up to 10 machines
[15:15] <popey> plus 10 vms
[15:15] <popey> iirc
[15:15] <bigcalm> Oh
[15:15] <bigcalm> I thought it cost
[15:15] <popey> it does
[15:15] <foobarry> directhex: pressurecooker
[15:15] <directhex> foobarry: taken :(
[15:15] <popey> pssrckr
[15:15] <awilkins> Landscape is free for 10 hard machines + 10 VMs?
[15:16] <awilkins> Or is that just "10 machines, whether they're virtual or not" ?
[15:16] <popey> http://askubuntu.com/questions/549809/how-do-i-install-landscape-for-personal-use
[15:16] <popey> " It is free for up to 10 physical machines and 10 more virtual machines for a total of 20:"
[15:18] <awilkins> Groovy
[15:18] <diplo> Might have to have a play with that myself, got a few VM's with it :)
[15:18]  * bigcalm emails himself for later tinkering
[15:18] <bigcalm> popey: thanks
[15:18] <awilkins> Do you have to have a dedicated server?
[15:18] <awilkins> Can it be a VM running on one of the machines it's managing :-) ?
[15:19] <foobarry> 100degreeswater
[15:19] <foobarry> .com
[15:20] <popey> these days I'd be inclined to use a random sequence of letters which is pronouncable
[15:20] <foobarry> didn't twitter used to be called twitr
[15:21] <diddledan> fltr
[15:21] <foobarry> those names will date badly
[15:21] <Myrtti> foggr
[15:21] <popey> agrajag.com :)
[15:21] <foobarry> lol is that availabl.e?
[15:22] <zmoylan-pi> programmers who watched too much jeopardy
[15:22] <popey> no :(
[15:22] <popey> someone in High Wycombe
[15:22] <popey>    Expiration Date: 07-dec-2022
[15:22] <popey> jeez
[15:22] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: what demographic is most wellknown for inventing random questions?
[15:23] <popey> or use some old norse god or something like icculus did
[15:23] <zmoylan-pi> oooooh i know this.... which group always ask, but does it run linux?
[15:24] <foobarry> fjords.org.uk
[15:24] <diddledan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeLZCy-_m3s
[15:25] <intrbiz> fluttr - social gambling ?
[15:29] <foobarry> muttr dog walking and chatting network
[15:29] <foobarry> mattr - social chemistry.
[15:32] <directhex> ok. trying to avoid valve's trademarks is tough
[15:33] <diddledan> hattr - a mad person
[15:33] <directhex> but here's my current idea: ductworks. it sorta evokes the idea of a factory, sorta about moving hot air from A to B so not entirely divorced from "steam"
[15:33] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00KAKUN3E fire TV stick is £19 for prime members
[15:33] <directhex> thoughts?
[15:34] <TwistedLucidity> "Suggested by Amazon from your recent TV viewing...."
[15:34] <daftykins> hmm, XFS gets 30MB/sec and EXT4 gets 45MB/sec with a test rsync
[15:34] <diddledan> daftykins: boiler
[15:34] <diddledan> erm
[15:34] <diddledan> directhex: ^^
[15:34] <directhex> diddledan: there aren't many "boiler" domains that aren't taken
[15:34] <diddledan> ergh
[15:34] <directhex> i want a .org for this, really
[15:34] <intrbiz> daftykins: read or write?
[15:35] <diddledan> boilerpipe
[15:35] <intrbiz> daftykins: what kernel?
[15:35] <directhex> e.g. boilerroom and boilerhouse were both taken
[15:35] <daftykins> intrbiz: write, with write-cache disabled
[15:35] <diddledan> pipedream
[15:35] <daftykins> intrbiz: 3.13.0-46
[15:35] <diddledan> :-p
[15:35] <Myrtti> sauna
[15:35] <popey> diddledan: how about Stavromula.com then you can brand it "Stavromula Beta"
[15:35] <intrbiz> daftykins: barriers turned on on ext4?
[15:35] <daftykins> intrbiz: whatever defaults are *shrug*
[15:35] <popey> s/ diddledan / directhex
[15:35] <TwistedLucidity> Steam OS...no valve trade marks...hmmm
[15:36] <diddledan> pipedream's prolly so old it's 1) abandonware, and 2) unknown to many
[15:36] <intrbiz> daftykins: what disk array?
[15:36] <daftykins> intrbiz: all i did for the EXT4 test was "sudo mkfs.ext4 /dev/sdc1" :>
[15:36] <daftykins> intrbiz: 8 x 4TB WD Red in RAID6 with 64KB stripe on a 3ware board
[15:36] <intrbiz> daftykins: barriers are a mount time option, I forget if EXT4 is on or off
[15:36] <intrbiz> daftykins: have you run bonnie++ ?
[15:36] <daftykins> i am unfamiliar with bonnie 0o
[15:37] <intrbiz> daftykins: excellent tool for testing disk perf
[15:37] <intrbiz> daftykins: how much RAM ?
[15:37] <daftykins> 2GB
[15:37] <directhex> daftykins: are you working on large or small files?
[15:37] <daftykins> dedi file server
[15:37] <daftykins> directhex: large predominantly, media storage for this chap
[15:38] <intrbiz> daftykins: bonnie++ -f -r 2048
[15:38] <daftykins> XFS seems a little bit quirky to understand but i eventually settled on "sudo mkfs.xfs -d su=64k,sw=6 -f /dev/sdc" for making up the XFS volume :>
[15:38] <daftykins> that's 6 data disks and 64KB stripe
[15:38] <intrbiz> yeh
[15:38] <diddledan> we've just had an interesting discussion over how we're looking to find a young-looking 9yearold
[15:39] <TwistedLucidity> directhex: Considered non-English words? I bought a real-word domain last year in German. Very handy.
[15:39] <diddledan> because you can do more with a 9yo than you can a 6yo
[15:39] <intrbiz> I use XFS on all my systems
[15:39] <daftykins> diddledan: err...
[15:39] <foobarry> xfs is horrid on disk full
[15:39] <diddledan> daftykins: indeed
[15:39] <intrbiz> daftykins: you can also increase the AG count if you've got a parrellel workload
[15:39] <directhex> XFS is red hat approved!
[15:39] <foobarry> kernel panic, xfs_repair involved , messy
[15:39] <foobarry> had that situation many times, and even last week on a file server
[15:40] <TwistedLucidity> Althoigh dampf.org probably isn't that great.....
[15:40] <intrbiz> foobarry: never had to XFS repair when I've filled the disk before
[15:40] <daftykins> intrbiz: do i need to sit in the path of that volume when running bonnie++ for it to use that?
[15:41] <daftykins> or is it going to do them all :D
[15:41] <foobarry> intrbiz: happpens frequently on various servers, also goes titty when a disk dies
[15:41] <intrbiz> daftykins: yes, it will create a temp file in working directory
[15:41] <foobarry> on the raid array
[15:41] <intrbiz> daftykins: watch iostat -mx 5 in another console too
[15:42] <daftykins> roger that, bonnie is running now, shall connect in again
[15:44] <daftykins> 100% util hah-har
[15:44] <intrbiz> daftykins: you can increase the -r param to write a bigger work load, it writes a file twice that size, IE, write twice the amount of RAM
[15:45] <intrbiz> daftykins: 100% util at what though put?
[15:45] <daftykins> can't say i'm too familiar with these units
[15:45] <intrbiz> daftykins: wMB/s column
[15:45] <daftykins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10678728/
[15:46] <daftykins> oh hello that value was up at 375MB/sec a moment ago
[15:46] <daftykins> ah no i was reading read
[15:46] <intrbiz> daftykins: 83% IOWait at 20MB/s rewrite is not a good sign
[15:47] <daftykins> i do have write cache disabled on the controller right now, as mentioned
[15:47] <daftykins> lets have another go
[15:47] <foobarry> iozone draws a pretty 3d graph for you
[15:48] <daftykins> 45-48MB/sec write now
[15:48] <daftykins> 84% IO wait
[15:49] <daftykins> i'm not sure whether i'd rather stay on EXT4 or go back to XFS
[15:50] <intrbiz> daftykins: has bonnie++ finished? can you paste the output
[15:50] <daftykins> yeah the first run had done
[15:51] <daftykins> horrible formatting :D http://paste.ubuntu.com/10678763/
[15:53] <intrbiz> daftykins: something fundametally wrong with that diska array, only hitting 46.183 MB/s
[15:53] <daftykins> let me run it again with write cache on
[15:54] <intrbiz> daftykins: does your controller have a battery backed cache?
[15:54] <daftykins> nope, that's why i've been messing around with write cache off
[15:54] <intrbiz> right
[15:54] <daftykins> writes is up to 145MB/sec with write cache on, iowait % down to 25
[15:55] <daftykins> the whole machine is UPS'd though so i'm not sure i should worry much
[15:55] <daftykins> wow that run completed so much quicker with write cache on :D
[15:55] <intrbiz> daftykins: have you tried presenting each disk as JBOD and using software RAID ?
[15:55] <daftykins> i don't want to
[15:55] <intrbiz> daftykins: I'd be very weary of using write cache without a BBU
[15:56] <intrbiz> daftykins: even for testing?
[15:56] <daftykins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10678810/
[15:56] <daftykins> well what would you be expecting to see different here?
[15:57] <daftykins> hmm i do also have the 3ware's whole 'security' vs. 'balance' vs. 'performance' profiles too
[15:57] <daftykins> right now it's on balance
[15:59] <intrbiz> never used 3ware controllers
[15:59] <daftykins> does the above paste show much of what you're expecting?
[15:59] <daftykins> performance mode ran even quicker now, naturally
[15:59] <intrbiz> daftykins: how big is the controller cache?
[15:59] <daftykins> 256MB on card i think
[16:00] <intrbiz> run bonnie with -r 4096 ?
[16:00] <daftykins> same comparison as my last paste or with this 'performance' mode on too?
[16:00] <intrbiz> sure
[16:01] <daftykins> it's more about capacity this storage though, so performance isn't really the matter
[16:02] <daftykins> i was more picking a file system still :D
[16:03] <daftykins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10678845/
[16:03] <daftykins> there we go
[16:03] <daftykins> oops i typed 2048 for the last one when i meant 4096
[16:04] <intrbiz> it says the file size in the output anyway
[16:04] <daftykins> *nod*
[16:04] <daftykins> so, still look iffy in someway?
[16:04] <intrbiz> performance is more expected with the cache on
[16:05] <intrbiz> with the cache off, it looks really bad, I suspect the parity computing is the bottle neck with the cache off
[16:05] <daftykins> mmm, even with it on you see the write rates dancing all around
[16:06] <intrbiz> at ~ 500MB/s you need to run a much larger / longer test to get reliable results
[16:06] <intrbiz> you'll often see the write rate drop when the controller flushes teh cache etc too
[16:06] <daftykins> seems weird to me i only see 85-90MB/sec rsyncing from another RAID6 on the same controller to that one?
[16:07] <intrbiz> rsyncing over network?
[16:07] <daftykins> local HBA
[16:07] <daftykins> 16 disks on the same controller
[16:07] <daftykins> 2 x 8 disk RAID6s
[16:08] <intrbiz> daftykins: with or without the writec cache?
[16:08] <daftykins> with
[16:09] <intrbiz> what do you see in iostat when you rsync?
[16:10] <daftykins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10678896/
[16:10] <daftykins> 21,038,380,819 100%   85.17MB/s    0:03:55 - test file
[16:11] <daftykins> maybe that's just the best you can get from a RAID6 writes even with 8 disks?
[16:12] <intrbiz> daftykins: RAID 5/6 are slower for writes than RAID 10 would be, it's a trade off of speed vs space
[16:12] <daftykins> yip
[16:13] <intrbiz> but I would have expected to see 160MB/s - 320MB/s for the number of spindles you have
[16:13] <intrbiz> is plain old cp any quicker than rsync ?
[16:13] <daftykins> is there a way to wrap it up for stats?
[16:14] <daftykins> time cp file dest, i suppose
[16:15] <intrbiz> just use iostat to watch the IO throughput
[16:15] <daftykins> wow yeah it's destroying rsync
[16:15] <daftykins> 170MB/sec
[16:16] <daftykins> it seems to be limited by the read rate from the other RAID
[16:16] <intrbiz> daftykins: any reason for the two arrays rather than one big array?
[16:16] <daftykins> real    1m55.593s - so practically half the time of the other, so yeah 170MB/sec
[16:17] <daftykins> intrbiz: yep, migrating the old to this new one at the moment as the olds disks are out of warranty now
[16:17] <daftykins> been spinning for 5+ years solid
[16:17] <intrbiz> ah ok
[16:17] <daftykins> all this fiddling is me getting comfy before committing :)
[16:19] <daftykins> intrbiz: do you have a preferred file system for these setups?
[16:21] <TwistedLucidity> Mystery solved. ufw is block KDE Connect....curses!
[16:21] <intrbiz> daftykins: I prefer XFS, especially for high performance work loads like databses
[16:21] <daftykins> ah right
[16:21] <daftykins> i definitely had no issues with it last time
[16:22] <intrbiz> daftykins: XFS also has quicker log recovery, less need for fsck
[16:22] <daftykins> maybe i'll go back to it then :)
[16:22] <intrbiz> daftykins: more parellel with via multiple allocation groups, better FSTrim handling
[16:22] <daftykins> "sudo mkfs.xfs -d su=64k,sw=6 -f /dev/sdc1" definitely sounded good? it's funny how obscure some XFS docs are
[16:22] <intrbiz> daftykins: and since 3.2 has better perf / IOPs profile at high thoughput
[16:23] <daftykins> initially i thought sw=8 for 8 disks, but then learnt it wants you to factor in data only disks
[16:23] <daftykins> kernel 3.2 onwards?
[16:23] <intrbiz> yes
[16:23] <daftykins> ah-har
[16:23] <daftykins> yeah this was just recently reinstalled from 10.04.4 server, so finally up to date
[16:24] <daftykins> had to move to a 64-bit host OS to handle mounting 24TB as well :D
[16:24] <intrbiz> daftykins: you could try without specifying strip width, it should get auto-detected if the block layer passes up
[16:24] <daftykins> yeah not sure if the 3ware presents the info, the xfs_info command just showed blank values
[16:24] <intrbiz> daftykins: also, I'd increase the ag count
[16:24] <daftykins> i'll have to look into how to do that then
[16:26] <intrbiz> daftykins: mkfs.xfs -d agcount=32
[16:27] <daftykins> seems 22 was default
[16:28] <intrbiz> daftykins: max size for an AG is 1TB
[16:28] <daftykins> XFS is hitting 200MB/sec write now
[16:29] <daftykins> with a standard cp, write cache on
[16:29] <intrbiz> daftykins: cool
[16:29] <intrbiz> daftykins: is that faster than EXT4 ?
[16:29] <daftykins> definitely
[16:29] <daftykins> i think being able to factor in the real physical attributes with XFS gives it an advantage
[16:30] <daftykins> intrbiz: thanks very much for your input :)
[16:30] <intrbiz> daftykins: your su and sw settings look right, but I've always found it can be worth benchmarking with and without (assuming you have the time and interest)
[16:30] <daftykins> yep i did both and had no difference with rsync at least, but now we know that was a bottleneck of some kind
[16:31] <intrbiz> daftykins: no worries, to much time spent debugging disk arrays in the past
[16:31] <daftykins> :D
[16:31] <daftykins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10679070/
[16:31] <daftykins> that's what i did earlier this afternoon
[16:32] <intrbiz> daftykins: I'd look at getting a BBU, the money vs the risk etc (even with a UPS)
[16:32] <daftykins> yeah, i'll price it up - might be hard to get hold of now
[16:32] <daftykins> ah no £8.60 on ebay :D
[16:33] <intrbiz> daftykins: is it an older controller?
[16:33] <daftykins> yeah, 3ware 9650SE 16 port
[16:33] <daftykins> proper legacy status now, both with LSI and whoever bought LSI now
[16:34] <intrbiz> I've used the Areca controllers in the past, very nice cards
[16:35] <intrbiz> LSI MegaRAID are usually pretty good
[16:35] <daftykins> i very nearly tried one back in Uni time, but decided to stick with what i knew
[16:35] <daftykins> in fact glancing at ebay i'm shocked how cheap they can be found
[16:36] <intrbiz> I pciked up some Dells controllers for around £30 the othter year
[16:36] <intrbiz> flashed with the LSI firmware they are good for the price
[16:36] <daftykins> :O
[16:36] <intrbiz> interestingly for RAID 10 the LSI firmware was about 4 times faster than the Dell firmware
[16:37] <daftykins> haha, that's a neat discovery
[16:37] <daftykins> i'm amazed it even goes on!
[16:37] <intrbiz> I think you just ignore the warming and it works *most* of the time
[16:39] <intrbiz> the best I saw, was one customer's (very expensive) SAN was only hit 15MB/s under bonnie++
[16:39] <daftykins> ooh-err
[16:39] <daftykins> what had they done wrong?
[16:42] <intrbiz> I think after alot of internal politics, their ops guys confessed to putting it on a low perf / oversubscribed LUN
[16:43] <daftykins> erk :S
[16:44] <daftykins> oh wow i'm fiddling around and just caught a sector repair on the old array
[16:45] <daftykins> wow it's one of the good disks 0o
[16:53] <daftykins> ok now one of the new disks reads 'device error' :) seems like it's going to be one of those days
[16:56] <intrbiz> via smart? or via the array block device?
[16:58] <daftykins> i saw a delay from just an "ls" on the old, so i did "dmesg | tail" and saw sector repairs
[16:58] <daftykins> then the notification emails flooded in... i've got 58 emails :D
[16:59] <daftykins> not quite sure why one of the new ones has gone 'device error' though
[17:22] <daftykins> how jammy, that one older disk is in warranty ^_^
[17:41] <intrbiz> :)
[17:41] <daftykins> hopefully the new one is just down to a wonky connection
[17:42] <daftykins> anywho on with the 9TB rsync
[17:50] <daftykins> in the ongoing game of people signing my email address up to their stuff, apparently i am Dawn - who is a new subscriber to Sky TV
[17:51] <bashrc_> email is such a secure protocol
[17:51] <daftykins> sure is
[17:57] <daftykins> lol through to sky support
 i'm not Dawn!
[18:02] <daftykins> hahaha
[18:02] <daftykins> "due to data protection we cannot do anything"
[18:03] <daftykins> so i told him i'd enjoy continuing to watch what Dawn watches on TV
[18:09] <intrbiz> hmmm, ok, Eclipse really does not want to let me edit a switch statement :(
[18:36] <davmor2> daftykins: you need a nick change to dawnykins obviously ;)
[18:38] <daftykins> seems so!
[18:39] <MooDoo> bloomin virgin router
[18:41] <daftykins> MooDoo: hmm? flaking out?
[18:45] <MooDoo> daftykins: yeah virgin was down for a bit, then the router reset it self, then wouldn't let me connect, so I've just turned it into modem only and attached a dd-wrt router I have and am using that instead
[18:45] <daftykins> \o/
[19:24] <davmor2> MooDoo: about time too, you'll have a much nicer time with it honest :D
[19:38] <davmor2> bigcalm: your spy camera arrived then
[20:35] <ali1234> what's the deal with /var/log/mysql.log?
[20:35] <ali1234> it's just completely empty...
[20:35] <shauno> worst standup routine ever.
[20:36] <ali1234> mysql isn't logging anything at all
[20:36] <ali1234> which is annoying becuase it is playing up
[20:38] <shauno> hm, neither's mine (deb wheezy)
[21:00] <awilkins_> Default mysql config is probably "don't log things"
[21:01] <awilkins_> I imagine that it can fill a disk quite fast if it actually logs everything
[21:03] <ali1234> yeah but when the server just stops responding to any requests for 15 minutes i'd like a log of that somewhere, besides all the 500 errors from apache
[22:09] <popey> shauno: that made me chuckle, thank you
[22:33] <diddledan> I wonder how many messages the combined ubuntu channels have amassed over their lifetime
[22:33] <diddledan> I'm guessing it's greater than 56million
[22:34]  * diddledan hides his calculator
[22:34] <shauno> see, that's dangerous.  because now you pretty much have to wander off the to log server and find out
[22:35] <diddledan> maybe
[22:35] <shauno> and this is why I've repeatedly tried to ban you from wondering
[22:35] <diddledan> or maybe I just use screengrab: https://mrkr.io/kqeAmCDLBf
[22:38] <shauno> ali1234, how familiar are you with a1200 accelerators?  most I find (non-ppc) have a gap waiting for an fpu.  wondering if you just drop that in there and what you actually gain
[22:38] <ali1234> yeah you just plug it in
[22:38] <ali1234> maybe change a jumper
[22:38] <ali1234> and you gain not very much unless you run software compiled for FPU
[22:39] <shauno> hm, that's what I feared
[22:39] <diddledan> a1200?
[22:39] <shauno> I guess it's more for the nuts that stick debian/netbsd on there?
[22:40] <ali1234> no, for those you need an MMU
[22:40] <shauno> I thought that just came from using a non-LC proc?
[22:40] <ali1234> it does
[22:41] <ali1234> but no A1200 shipped with an MMU
[22:41] <ali1234> hardly any A4000 shipped with one either
[22:42] <shauno> hm, I think I'll hold off on that then, save me 50 quid and taking a soldering iron to my accellerator
[22:43] <ali1234> the chips are usually socketed
[22:44] <ali1234> diddledan: amiga
[22:44] <diddledan> aah, thanks
[22:44] <shauno> mine just has a field of solderpads with 68882 written in the middle
[22:44] <ali1234> ah, not worth it then
[22:45] <shauno> as does the new one I was looking at :(
[22:45] <ali1234> "new"
[22:45] <shauno> well, recent.  it's some crazy german guy who still makes them
[22:46] <shauno> http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/aca1233   2014  lol
[22:47] <shauno> I'll be ordering a new scandoubler from him, so have been pondering if it's worth picking up while I'm there
[22:47] <ali1234> well that looks like it has an MMU at least
[22:48] <shauno> he made my current one, but the new revision has dvi-i, and will work to vga or hdmi
[22:48] <shauno> which is exactly the kind of crazy I think deserves support
[22:51] <shauno> (plus, I do believe my old CRT is old enough to leave home)
[23:05] <daftykins> diddledan: i wonder how many are me discovering dead disks...
[23:05] <daftykins> ;)
[23:05] <diddledan> lol
[23:06] <daftykins> diddledan: did you see i managed to kill a disk in each array on the system i'm testing atm?
[23:06] <daftykins> one has bad sectors and the other has just gone AWOL
[23:06] <diddledan> ouch
[23:06] <daftykins> :D
[23:06] <daftykins> will have to check that out tomorrow
[23:08] <diddledan> daftykins: in #ubuntu searching for "daftykins dead" I get 60584 results
[23:08] <daftykins> they wish
[23:10] <diddledan> and for "daftykins disk" I get 161957 results
[23:13] <daftykins> daftykins smartctl ?
[23:13] <daftykins> i swear i need to discover how to alias some of that stuff
[23:13] <diddledan> that's 47497 results
[23:14] <daftykins> aww