[02:05] <Bluefoxicy> lol
[02:06] <Bluefoxicy> I googled "Ubuntu 15.04 release date"
[02:06] <Bluefoxicy> What are the first words that appear on the page?
[02:06] <Bluefoxicy> "As the 23 April release date approaches, it's beginning to look as though Ubuntu 15.04 (Vivid Vervet) on the desktop will be a disappointing release. "
[02:08] <Bluefoxicy> "While the option to switch to Locally Integrated Menus (LIMs) was introduced in 14.04, this is now the default in Ubuntu 15.04, with the menus appearing in the top bar of every window."
[02:09] <Bluefoxicy> When Ubuntu switched to MacOS-style menus, I went babbling on about the number of clicks required to access a menu for a non-focus window, and about the spatial locality of the application workspace and how it differs from the spatial locality of the screen workspace
[02:09] <Bluefoxicy> The next time someone tries to switch to MacOS-style menus, I'll just say "Ubuntu"
[02:11] <agronholm> I found the LIMs a much better solution than the stupid global manu bar
[02:11] <agronholm> *menu
[02:11] <Bluefoxicy> agronholm:  I argued with people and gave technical explanations on why the global menu bar is not good UI design, at all.
[02:12] <Bluefoxicy> Occasionally, this misguided belief that users are spatially aware of their desktop and NOT of the application window surfaces
[02:12] <Bluefoxicy> So people were arguing that the application window can move around the screen, and so the user will get confused and have to go hunting for the window to find the menu, instead of reaching for the top of the screen--the top of the screen is always in the same place
[02:13] <Bluefoxicy> The problem with this is people aren't spatially aware of the screen
[02:13] <Bluefoxicy> their minds context to the application they want; they locate it; and then they interact with it spatially.
[02:13] <agronholm> confused? err, that's how all GUIs work except for Mac OS
[02:13] <Bluefoxicy> It's like a coffee mug
[02:13] <Bluefoxicy> you know where the handle is on the coffee mug.
[02:13] <agronholm> yeh
[02:13] <Bluefoxicy> If you put the coffee mug elsewhere on your desk, you locate the mug, and grab the handle.
[02:14] <Bluefoxicy> if the handle was in a fixed location on your desk, you'd have to locate the mug, then identify its spatial relationship with your desk, then use that to derive the location of the handle
[02:14] <Bluefoxicy> or... locate the handle separately
[02:14] <Bluefoxicy> Anyway
[02:14] <Bluefoxicy> I've learned recently that it's pointless to argue with people
[02:14] <Bluefoxicy> They never listen.
[02:14] <Bluefoxicy> I should have handled that some other way, because facts and figures don't fucking work.
[02:15] <Bluefoxicy> But they figured it out on their own.
[02:15] <agronholm> and canonical likes to do things their way
[02:16] <agronholm> fsck the users
[02:16] <agronholm> see mir for reference
[02:16] <Bluefoxicy> oh my god
[02:16] <Bluefoxicy> ZDNet's writers are such shit
[02:17] <Bluefoxicy> agronholm: they're trying to make an Ubuntu phone (android, ios, winphone, yeah....) and their own desktop.
[02:17] <Bluefoxicy> I'm still using Gnome 3 because it's a huge step above Gnome 2
[02:18] <Bluefoxicy> People hate Gnome 3 because they want to hunt through menus, and Gnome 3's menu hunting feature is ... shit.
[02:18] <agronholm> I expect the same amount of success as Nokia saw with their Lumia phones
[02:18] <Bluefoxicy> But people also hate on Unity for the same reason
[02:18] <Bluefoxicy> while Canonical crams Unity down your throat lol...
[02:19] <agronholm> at least there are alternative editions
[02:19] <Bluefoxicy> yeah.  Like I said, I use Gnome 3
[02:19] <Bluefoxicy> gnome-ubuntu or whatevr
[02:19] <Bluefoxicy> it's just... last I used unity, it handled the desktops by showing you 4 and only 4 virtual desktops, with the applications piled onto each.
[02:20] <Bluefoxicy> Gnome shows you a zoomed-out view of all applications on exactly one desktop, which you switch through, create more of, or drag applications between.
[02:20] <Bluefoxicy> Plus I like how in Gnome you can tap the Winkey or the Activities button and start typing, and then just hit arrows or hit enter and open the application you want.
[02:21] <Bluefoxicy> There's not a lot to say about the desktop; it's just out of my way.
[02:21] <Bluefoxicy> Microsoft and Canonical are doing this thing where they want to bring the desktop environment more into the user's face to show off how it's so bling
[02:22] <Bluefoxicy> and I just want it to hand me what I want IMMEDIATELY and then go away
[03:45] <xinobrax> Bluefoxicy: some here...Unity still sucks....and usually I replace Nautilus with Nemo....Nautilus became really horrible...
[03:45] <xinobrax> *same
[08:34] <lordievader> Good morning.
[09:48] <solsTiCe> hi. Whu does not ubuntu able todetect that the RTC clock is in UTC during install ? it leads to some afterwards. IT is just a matter of comparing RTC clock and some value from a ntp server (if there is internet obviously)
[09:50] <lordievader> solsTiCe: That is because other OS'es can expect the clock to be in a different format.
[11:05] <solsTiCe> lordievader: "format" ? it can only be UTC or localtime. yes windows set it to lcoaltime unless you tinker the register. I din't say ubuntu should change RTC clock. I said ubuntu should detect the value of RTC clokc and UTC value in /etc/default/rcS
[11:06] <lordievader> If you run ntpd it will correct the clock automatically.
[11:17] <MoonUnit`> looks like ntpdate is installed, seems to be a dependancy with ubuntu-minimal
[11:17] <MoonUnit`> journalctl |grep ntpdate shows it's being used, must be a systemd thing
[11:18] <lordievader> MoonUnit`: ntpdate existed way before systemd ;)
[11:18] <MoonUnit`> no i mean having it installed
[11:19] <lordievader> Thought it was ~allways included.
[11:20] <lordievader> Anyhow ntpd != ntpdate.
[11:21] <MoonUnit`> don't they both update in the system clock via ntp servers?
[11:22] <lordievader> Yes, but one is a daemon, the other isn't.
[11:25] <MoonUnit`> ntpdate seems to be called a lot, too much imo 11:10:47 11:19:24 11:28:2 11:36:42 11:44:53
[11:26] <MoonUnit`> 10 times in the last hour
[11:29] <lordievader> Ntps is also a lot nicer in correcting time difference.
[11:30] <MoonUnit`> wonder why they chose ntpdate over ntpd
[11:30] <lordievader> In most cases ntpd isn't necesarry.
[12:00] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[12:16]  * Bluefoxicy puts MoonUnit` in a kangaroo pouch for no apparent reason
[12:17] <Bluefoxicy> ntpdate will set your clock if it's off by more than a few seconds; ntpd won't.
[12:17] <Bluefoxicy> You need your clock topped up properly if you use kerberos tokens
[12:18] <Bluefoxicy> Sometimes, these systems drift more than 1 minute per hour
[12:18] <Bluefoxicy> Ubuntu 13.10 drifted more than 1 minute per hour for me.  I don't know why. 12.10 didn't, neither did 14.04
[12:18] <lordievader> Bluefoxicy: ntpd will slowly get your clock back in sync, it avoids huge jumps.
[12:18] <Bluefoxicy> no idea if 15.04 is going to be broken or if it'll have a working clock
[12:19] <lordievader> Heh
[12:19] <Bluefoxicy> lordievader:  maybe that's why it never did anything for me when my clock was running wildly out of sync
[12:19] <lordievader> Hmm, it should get it in sync. That is, after all, it's job.
[12:20] <Bluefoxicy> I was drifting by more than an hour per week o.o
[12:20] <BluesKaj> the clock works just fine on 15.04 here
[12:21] <Bluefoxicy> I wonder what causes some versions of Ubuntu to have clock drift
[12:25] <BluesKaj> internal clock drifts when the pc is shut down  perhaps?
[12:26] <lordievader> It shouldn't, that is what the RTC and bios battery are for.
[12:26] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: How much does it drift?
[12:29] <penguin42> oh you said
[12:29] <penguin42> hmm, an hour a week is a lot
[12:29] <penguin42> that's > 0.5%
[12:36] <GeoMint> hello
[12:37] <lordievader> o/
[12:37] <GeoMint> for some reason my laptop does not show any tty from tty1 to tty6
[12:37] <GeoMint> i have xubuntu 15.04
[12:37] <GeoMint> its just shows a black screen
[12:38] <Bluefoxicy> penguin42: yeah.  Current version doesn't do it.  It's done it on and off for years.  I had it happen to me sometimes when I ran Gentoo, too, always for stretches of months at least; it's never been a one-off thing where it misbehaved for a week or something.
[12:39] <BluesKaj> when did this happen GeoMint ?
[12:39] <GeoMint> i think some days now it has it
[12:39] <Bluefoxicy> lordievader:  I thought Linux calculated time internally, using real-time CPU statistics (clock ticks)
[12:39] <Bluefoxicy> could be a CPU driver issue from time to time, but I have no idea.
[12:40] <BluesKaj> GeoMint, after an upgrade , dist-upgrade or an new install?
[12:40] <lordievader> Bluefoxicy: Clould be, but I think that would result in a very unstable clock.
[12:40] <penguin42> BluesKaj: Do you ever suspend?
[12:41] <BluesKaj> yes penguin42, I do on my laptop
[12:41] <GeoMint> i dont know. i am not sure. i think it did some dist upgrades. I didn't open tty's in my laptop in the last month so i can not be sure to answer you.
[12:43] <GeoMint> i am upgrading with the new updates now via apt-get
[12:45] <penguin42> BluesKaj: Sorry, that was actually a question for Bluefoxicy
[12:46] <BluesKaj> penguin42, that's fine
[12:46] <GeoMint> any ideas BluesKaj
[12:48] <BluesKaj> GeoMint, gpu driver wasn't updated maybe?
[12:49] <GeoMint> idk, my tty7 (Xorg) works great
[12:50] <BluesKaj> oh ok , you're the 2nd user who's encountered that problem in the last 2 days
[12:51] <GeoMint> hmmm thanks for letting me know that BluesKaj
[12:51] <BluesKaj> the VT isn't enabled somehow
[12:51] <GeoMint> the VT? what is this?
[12:53] <GeoMint> ohh you mean the ttys
[12:53] <GeoMint> ok
[12:54] <BluesKaj> penguin42, you mentioned there was a method to switch the VT off, wonder if the same method can  be used to turn the VTs on
[12:54] <GeoMint> i upgraded with the lastest update. so i will restart my computer after that
[12:54] <GeoMint> i am talking you from this computer so i will logout and come back again
[12:54] <penguin42> BluesKaj: I remember it being an X config thing, and I think there was also an option under input settings somewhere - all about whether ctrl-alt-fn was allowed
[12:56] <BluesKaj> penguin42, ok , some users don't even have an Xconfig file
[12:56] <penguin42> BluesKaj: On kubuntu under settings, input/keyboard, advanced
[12:56] <BluesKaj> most actually
[12:56] <penguin42> BluesKaj: Possibly then the Miscellaneous compat options, special keys handled in a server?
[12:56] <penguin42> BluesKaj: Still seems to be enabled here - but hang on, are these affected users running Mir perhaps/
[12:57] <BluesKaj> penguin42, yeah , good point
[12:57] <BluesKaj> GeoMint, unity desktop ?
[12:58] <GeoMint> Xubuntu
[12:58] <GeoMint> i can upload my /etc/init/tty1.conf if you want
[12:58] <BluesKaj> oh yeah , forgot
[12:59] <GeoMint> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10749771/ this is my conf
[12:59] <penguin42> GeoMint: If you have a working shell on your machine or ssh you can try manaually switching with the command chvt 2    (for example) - and then can switch back with chvt 7  (probabyl!)
[12:59] <BluesKaj> VT1 wasn't workinghere for a while, but the rest did
[13:00] <GeoMint> i said that my tty1,2,3,4,5,6 are a black screen
[13:00] <GeoMint> so i am not sure if that works
[13:00] <GeoMint> no idea how to do what you told me
[13:00] <penguin42> ah, so oyu can switch but they're black - hmm
[13:00] <GeoMint> yes
[13:01] <penguin42> GeoMint: If you do  systemctl | grep tty   do you see 'getty@tty2.service'
[13:02] <GeoMint> yes
[13:02] <penguin42> and does it shows it as loaded/active/running ?
[13:02] <GeoMint> all 1-6 running
[13:02] <penguin42> oh, if that's running then hmm
[13:02]  * penguin42 blinks - why does my machine have /dev/ttyS0..31
[13:02] <penguin42> it doesn't have any serial ports
[13:03] <GeoMint> wait a minute to restart my computer with the last updates and i come back
[13:06] <GeoMint> i am back BluesKaj
[13:06] <GeoMint> not any change from updates
[13:08] <GeoMint> penguin42
[13:12] <GeoMint> anyway. thanks for the informations BluesKaj penguin42 :) have a nice day
[13:22]  * BluesKaj wonders what's missing that leaves the VTs disabled
[13:26] <penguin42> yeh it's odd, if systemd thinks it's running a getty
[13:33] <BluesKaj> I haven't checked ...wonder if it's disabled here too
[13:34] <penguin42> no, he said he saw it in the list
[13:34] <BluesKaj> works here, just tried VT1
[13:35] <penguin42> yeh, works here
[13:35] <BluesKaj> but another Kubuntu 15.04 user had the VT problem yesterday
[13:36] <penguin42> I'm an upgrade here rather than clean install
[13:37] <BluesKaj> this is a daily from 2 days ago
[13:38] <penguin42> go back a step, why are they switching vt - is it only after something has already failed?
[15:12] <mrpizzaface> Hello im running ubuntu 15.04 BETA2 and i was wondering how do i remove a setting on a harddrive that i have that wont let me write to it even though i have used Gparted to formatt the drive to EXT4
[15:38] <BluesKaj> mrpizzaface, are you trying to install from live-media/usb/cd ?  if so you may need to unmount it
[18:57] <mrpizzaface> Hello im running ubuntu 15.04 BETA2 and i was wondering how do i remove a setting on a harddrive that i have that wont let me write to it even though i have used Gparted to formatt the drive to EXT4
[18:57] <mrpizzaface> (also i might have been here before but for some reason my laptop died)
[19:32] <agronholm> mrpizzaface: setting on a hard drive?
[19:32] <agronholm> and you have the file system mounted read-write?
[19:34] <mrpizzaface> agronholm, sorry didnt get my pings but nope i fixed it told google to go *** its self up a river and used bing
[19:39] <mokush> anybody else having problems with booting up vivid with the 3.19.0-12 kernel? I'm using kubuntu, and get stuck either at a blank screen, either at the blank screen with the 219 systemd version. can't switch to a different tty or anything. If I boot with 3.19.0-11 everything works ok.
[19:40] <agronholm> I have 3.19.0-12
[19:40] <agronholm> no problems whatsoever
[20:16] <lordievader> mokush: As a matter of fact, I did. Didn't look into what it acually was. Booted the previous kernel and no problems.
[20:17] <lordievader> Hmm, same version indeed.
[20:31] <mokush> lordievader: do you have an intel gpu?
[20:32] <lordievader> I do.
[20:32] <mokush> lordievader: if I enter recovery mode, then resume normal boot from there, I can boot the new kernel. but the resolution is all messed-up, so I guess it doesn't have the right video drivers?
[20:33] <lordievader> Recoverymode messes up drivers to ensure a proper boot. I.e. it uses the most basic of basic.
[20:44] <mokush> lordievader: so it must be something with 3.19.0-12 and intel drivers
[20:44] <lordievader> Looks like it.
[21:36] <furkan> anybody here using the radeonsi open source driver on vivid?
[21:37] <furkan> i'm just wondering if anybody else can reproduce these bugs:
[21:37] <furkan> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/1440602
[21:37] <furkan> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/1440606