[04:42] <diddledan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjeX5drV9ms
[04:55] <daftykins> http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2015/04/07/may-cover-revealed-deus-ex-mankind-divided-568435.aspx
[04:55] <daftykins> a new Deus Ex!
[04:58] <daftykins> Renegades 0o doesn't look quite... legit
[06:12] <directhex> well that's unexpected. https://instagram.com/p/1L95FDv9Ks/
[06:31] <knightwise> morning peeps
[06:32] <daftykins> g'morn
[06:40] <knightwise> hey daftykins how are ya today
[06:47] <daftykins> mmm none too shabby ta, just watching the cat getting into all kinds of morning mischief... which makes her name Mischief very apt :D
[06:47] <daftykins> and yourself? what fun has today in store?
[06:51] <knightwise> Working from home today. So i'm gonna take some time off to go to the store and pick up and SD for my RaspberryPi2
[06:51] <daftykins> ^_^
[06:51] <knightwise> and then do my quarterly taxes
[06:52] <daftykins> ooh i keep forgetting about doing my tax return
[06:53]  * knightwise has his own company so ...
[06:53] <knightwise> we need to do this every quarter
[06:53] <daftykins> :(
[06:53] <knightwise> paperwork is done so we just need to send it to our accountant
[06:55] <knightwise> hmmm.. copying over some old data from a desktop for a friend
[06:56] <knightwise> I forgot how much hideous noise this things make
[06:56] <daftykins> mechanical disks? :)
[06:57] <knightwise> yep , and fans , and beige boxes
[06:57] <knightwise> #horrible
[06:57] <knightwise> and .. WINDOWS
[06:57] <daftykins> works for me (:
[06:59] <knightwise> I know , for me too but .. I had to reinstall windows for him
[06:59] <knightwise> I HATE doing that kind of support, especially on those desktop clunkers
[06:59] <daftykins> as in it was just a bit of an antique? :D
[06:59] <daftykins> 'cause desktops are ace
[07:00] <knightwise> its indeed an atique
[07:00] <knightwise> core 2 duo
[07:00] <daftykins> oof
[07:01] <daftykins> a friend wants me to help christen a new family desktop today i believe
[07:01] <daftykins> involving carting some data over onto it off the old
[07:01] <daftykins> i sense the new thing will be Windows 8 :(
[07:02] <knightwise> hmm.. hate that
[07:02]  * knightwise has no local data on ANY of his systems
[07:02] <knightwise> its all on the nas or in the cloud
[07:04] <daftykins> there was a time when i took my file server down for maintenance, PSU gave up the ghost - i was without access to all my content for days :D
[07:05] <knightwise> ouch
[07:05] <knightwise> A lot of the data of the company is stored offsite (cloud or has a remote copy)
[07:05] <knightwise> Same goes for our pics and our music collection
[07:06] <daftykins> hmm that reminds me i ought to leave a spare drive at my parents with my music on so there's at least that off-site
[07:06] <knightwise> pretty important
[07:07] <knightwise> i've been going through my old backup cd's this week and pulling off any data I still needed to save them from diskrot
[07:07] <daftykins> i put one co's docs into their google drive account once, as they already had google apps... but interestingly it killed windows search within that path
[07:08] <knightwise>  yep , i think onedrive IS searchable
[07:09] <daftykins> hrmm not seen that working in person, i've linked some videos my xbox has created off it once or twice, though
[07:09] <daftykins> someone i know with an iMac and a Windows laptop needs docs synced between both, i was thinking of just giving dropbox a bash
[07:10] <daftykins> owncloud could've been fun, but with a dynamic home IP i think that'd be messy
[07:10] <knightwise> Then why not go for bittorrent sync ?
[07:10] <daftykins> i don't entirely trust the privacy on that one
[07:11] <daftykins> haven't seen v2 though
[07:11] <knightwise> I use it for the remote backups.
[07:21] <diplo> daftykins: Syncthing!
[07:21] <diplo> :)
[07:21] <daftykins> o0
[07:59] <diddledan> mornin
[07:59] <daftykins> hello sir
[08:06] <daftykins> diddledan: new Deus Ex!
[08:06] <daftykins> \o/
[08:29] <davmor2> Morning all
[08:32] <daftykins> heya
[08:33] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:36] <daftykins> hey brobostigon
[08:37] <brobostigon> hey daftykins
[09:03] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Draw a Picture of a Bird Day! :-D
[09:03] <zmoylan-pi> tragic story behind that one
[09:04] <daftykins> not big-bird?
[09:04] <daftykins> nooooooooo!
[09:04] <JamesTait> It'll be all the more tragic if I decide to participate.
[09:04] <daftykins> hahaha
[09:04] <daftykins> same here
[09:06] <JamesTait> msm__, are you responsible for this one? A cunning ploy to try to get me to showcase my "talent"? ;)
[09:06] <msm__> JamesTait: Ha ha. DO you know, I've never drawn a bird!
[09:06] <msm__> although there is always a first time :)
[09:07] <msm__> There is a rather cute (and picture worthy) robin in my gardne
[09:07] <zmoylan-pi> not even the wonky m in the skies of pics as a kid?
[09:07] <msm__> zmoylan-pi: oh yes, there were those
[09:07] <zmoylan-pi> so you have technically drawn a bird then :-)
[09:07] <JamesTait> zmoylan-pi, I even managed to make those not look like birds. ;)
[09:08] <msm__> JamesTait: Now I'm going to have to draw a bird!
[09:08] <JamesTait> msm__, glad to be of inspiration. :-P
[09:08] <msm__> Oh yes :P
[09:09]  * JamesTait looks around, realises his camera is nowhere to be seen.
[09:09] <msm__> JamesTait: Bad planning!
[09:09] <msm__> :)
[09:10] <JamesTait> I have images to transfer from the SD card, so I can't argue with that!
[09:11] <JamesTait> ~v~ <-- bird
[09:11] <zmoylan-pi> m <-bird
[09:42] <zmoylan-pi> . <--bird that is very very far away :-)
[09:54] <TwistedLucidity> (")>
[09:54] <popey>  ^
[09:54] <zmoylan-pi> steam wafting over a cup of coffee... good idea :-)
[09:56] <zmoylan-pi> kettle approaching boiling, choccie biccies located...
[09:56] <popey> Elevensies!
[09:57] <zmoylan-pi> exactamundo!
[09:57] <popey> i just had a toasted bagel and coffee
[09:57] <popey> and a smoothie
[09:57] <knightwise> popey: sound yum !
[09:58] <Myrtti> I'm trying out some coffee I got from TK Maxx
[09:58] <Myrtti> not too bad
[09:58] <popey> I think my taste buds are shot. I can't tell the difference between one coffee and another.
[09:58] <popey> or indeed instant
[09:58] <Myrtti> I can't stand the Finnish drip machine stuff anymore
[10:01] <TwistedLucidity> popey: Bagel. I have bagels. I also have an empty tum-tum. I wonder what the solution could possibly be.....?
[10:01] <popey> need butter
[10:01] <zmoylan-pi> think of the money you save drinking instant instead of silly expensive coffee
[10:01] <diplo> Stop talking about food please!!!! I'm so hungry and no food here!
[10:01] <popey> hah
[10:01]  * zmoylan-pi has cheese trianges for bagels later
[10:01] <popey> Last night I had a bagel for tea, toasted, buttered, added cheese then microwaved for 20 seconds to melt it
[10:02] <popey> was yum
[10:02] <popey> and nuclear hot
[10:02] <TwistedLucidity> zmoylan-pi: Instant is "emergency coffee"
[10:03] <Azelphur> popey: been trying out Ubuntu touch on my tablet recently, not much of a fan right now though, it's weird how they haven't brought over some easy to port stuff that'd make the platform so much better (eg VLC)
[10:03] <zmoylan-pi> this is emergency coffee as no bugger will touch it till the dogs milk runs out... :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Coffee
[10:05] <popey> "easy to port"
[10:05] <popey> feel free to do that
[10:06] <popey> what tablet out of interest?
[10:06] <Azelphur> Nexus 7
[10:06] <popey> k
[10:07] <Azelphur> popey: I would assume it supports mir already, if not you could just use xmir, I bet it has a touch/tablet theme too
[10:07] <popey> ahhh assumption
[10:07] <popey> no, it doesn't support mir
[10:07] <Azelphur> then xmir would work fine anyway :P
[10:07] <popey> and xmir isn't on the phone yet, but is under development
[10:07] <popey> not finished yet
[10:07] <Azelphur> ah
[10:08] <Azelphur> that's one of the main things I was interested in having, xmir
[10:08] <Azelphur> that'll be a killer feature when it lands imo
[10:11] <TwistedLucidity> Oh, and congrats to Team Ubuntu for no longer being treated like a leper on the Dell site. Listed as an OS option and everything!
[10:13] <knightwise> Still jonesing for the new xps13
[10:14] <Azelphur> popey: that said I haven't looked super deeply into Ubuntu touch, are there any cool features I'm missing? :)
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> It looks like a semi-decent machine. Not sure why only 8GB for RAM for a "developer" edition. But that's small beans really.
[10:14] <Azelphur> I'm dual booting my nexus 7 so I can happily swap between Android and Ubuntu touch, I just haven't found anything I'd actually use touch for yet lol
[10:15] <knightwise> I ordered the ubuntu phone , expect it to arrive anytime soon now.
[10:16] <knightwise> so if i'm correct dell now has complete driver support for the xps13
[10:16] <Azelphur> knightwise: cool, feel free to field the above question too, I'm just looking for cool things to do with it / cool apps :)
[10:18] <knightwise> Azelphur: i'll do a review for the knightwise.com and carry it around for a couple of weeks
[10:18] <Azelphur> nice
[11:10] <davmor2> incoming for JamesTait
[11:10] <davmor2>            _ _.-''''''--._
[11:10] <davmor2>          .` `.  ...------.\
[11:10] <davmor2>         / |O :-`   _,.,---'
[11:10] <davmor2>        '  \   ;--''
[11:10] <davmor2>        | _.' (
[11:10] <davmor2>        ,' _,' `-.
[11:10] <davmor2>        : /       '.
[11:10] <davmor2>        \ \         '
[11:10] <davmor2>         `.|         `.
[11:10] <davmor2>           `-._        \
[11:10] <davmor2>               '.  ,-.  \
[11:10] <davmor2>   .__          _`.\..`\ \
[11:10] <davmor2>   ,  ''- . _,-'.,-'  ``: \
[11:10] <davmor2>   '-...._ (( (('-.._    \ \
[11:10] <davmor2>          `--..      `'-. \ \
[11:10] <davmor2>               `..     '   \ \
[11:10] <davmor2>                  `\ \fsr   `"
[11:10] <davmor2>                    \/
[11:10] <davmor2> I cheated and brorrowed someone elses :)
[11:11] <JamesTait> davmor2, toucan play at that game!
[11:11] <davmor2> bad dum tish
[11:11]  * popey tuts
[11:13] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[11:13] <davmor2> popey, JamesTait: http://www.chris.com/ascii/index.php?art=animals/birds%20%28land%29 there are some really nice one here :)
[11:13] <bigcalm> Apr  8 12:12:11 INS01AMR01 postfix/smtp[24458]: connect to smtp.mailgun.org[50.56.21.178]:587: Connection timed out
[11:14] <bigcalm> What might cause connections to an SMTP server to timeout?
[11:14] <knightwise> google forgot to renew the cert
[11:14] <knightwise> if you are using gmail that is
[11:15] <awilkins> As someone said, they probably forget their Google Calendar reminder :-)
[11:15] <knightwise> great quote ! :
[11:15] <JamesTait> davmor2, smaller ones as well. ;)
[11:16] <davmor2> JamesTait: yeah but I wanted to spam you with something you would cherish for the day :P
[11:17] <JamesTait> You're all heart, davmor2. ;)
[11:17]  * bashrc_ thought google had fixed that
[11:18] <bigcalm> davmor2: that list is missing the BBC Micro logo
[11:20] <JamesTait> bigcalm, is it trying to talk SSL on the STARTTLS port, perhaps? I've seen that either drop the connection immediately or time out.
[11:20] <davmor2> bigcalm: possibly trademarked all of them are assigned sigs so I suppose they can't list trademarked stuff without permission maybe ?  just a guess though
[11:21] <bigcalm> JamesTait: oh, how might I check?
[11:21] <bigcalm> JamesTait: I'm doing this via postfix config
[11:22] <bigcalm> Taken from https://rtcamp.com/tutorials/linux/ubuntu-postfix-gmail-smtp/
[11:22] <davmor2> bigcalm: telnet the port
[11:22] <JamesTait> I usually use tcpdump for stuff like that.
[11:23] <davmor2> bigcalm: https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/postfix.html testing it is listed lower down
[11:23] <JamesTait> If there's nothing obvious in the logs - I can't remember if Postfix logs anything sensible when it happens.
[11:24] <bigcalm> Looks like telnetting to 587 is going to timeout
[11:25] <bigcalm> I fear I will have to get in touch with the hosting company
[11:25] <JamesTait> bigcalm, you could try changing the port on the relayhost to 25
[11:25] <davmor2> bigcalm: check if there was an update that change the config on you
[11:26] <JamesTait> And I assume also in the sasl password config.
[11:26] <bigcalm> Postfix couldn't connect to mail servers on port 25 (timeout) so I thought I'd try an authenticated SMTP server. But that's timing out as well
[11:27] <davmor2> bigcalm: just thinking out loud on that one, ie if you are pointing at the port you expect to work and it is pointing at another, also check you ssl/starttls certs are valid
[11:27] <bigcalm> Annoying when a hosting company restricts outgoing traffic from a server
[11:28] <JamesTait> bigcalm, yeah, smtp.mailgun.org responds on both ports 25 and 587 from here.
[11:29] <bigcalm> JamesTait: and from my own machine but not the server
[11:29] <bigcalm> davmor2: just updated ca-certificates but it didn't change the outcome
[11:29]  * bigcalm goes to find lunch
[11:29] <bigcalm> Thanks for the debug tips guys
[11:29] <JamesTait> No worries. :)
[11:48] <TwistedLucidity> A little flock for you all: 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦 🐦
[11:48] <davmor2> bigcalm: that will 10,000 credits please
[11:49] <TwistedLucidity> (Unicode 1F426)
[12:07] <popey> bah!
[12:07] <popey> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_four
[12:07] <popey> that's using flash isn't it?
[12:09] <intrbiz> popey: yes it's flash
[12:11] <popey> :(
[12:11] <intrbiz> popey: why?
[12:11] <popey> flash sucks :)
[12:13] <Azelphur> I actually "made the jump" and uninstalled flash last week
[12:13] <zmoylan-pi> don't worry some bank or government department will put up a page that requires it :-)
[12:14] <Azelphur> I have chrome for that, but I use Firefox (without flash) as my daily driver
[12:15] <moreati> looks like VLC can use these URLs for streaming BBC radio http://www.suppertime.co.uk/blogmywiki/2015/04/updated-list-of-bbc-network-radio-urls/
[12:15] <popey> need to update my radio tray urls
[12:16] <popey> thanks moreati
[12:19] <popey> \o/ works a treat
[12:22] <popey> http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/08/ship-this-bed-tv-ad-asa-bedworld is fun
[12:27] <awilkins> If they're smart they're buying shipthebed.com right now
[12:28] <awilkins> And it's slightly ruder compatriot
[12:44] <zmoylan-pi> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11520819/Google-looking-at-buying-Twitter.html
[12:46] <TwistedLucidity> popey: Why am I reminded of the warnings before Billy Connolly stand-up shows, and people would *STILL* write in to complain?
[12:46] <zmoylan-pi> people like to complain
[12:47] <popey> people are idiots
[12:47] <popey> hmm, that radio 4 link doesn't work on firefox OS
[12:47] <popey> i feel less annoyed now
[12:47] <TwistedLucidity> Everyone except me!
[12:48] <zmoylan-pi> simple people of the land, you know, morons :-)
[12:48] <popey> wish it used html audio rather than relying on flash and some android app :(
[12:48] <TwistedLucidity> popey: R4 links works perfectly.
[12:49] <TwistedLucidity> But I do have the "HAL" stuff installed that Flash needs and is no longer provided.
[12:49] <TwistedLucidity> Oh, Firefox **OS**. What was that about me not being an idiot?
[12:49] <TwistedLucidity> Heh
[12:50] <popey> i didnt say the links didnt work
[12:50] <popey> but yeah, on ffos
[12:50] <popey> (I don't have hal btw)
[12:51] <TwistedLucidity> Now that DRM has been baked into HTML, can't see it being too long before the drop Flash.
[12:51] <TwistedLucidity> But the BBC have been a bit less co-operative of late with non-standard platforms
[12:51] <diddledan> thething with drm being baked into html is it still requires a plugin
[12:52] <zmoylan-pi> there will be sites that require flash in years to come. just because
[12:52] <TwistedLucidity> diddledan: Aye, but the API is there.
[12:52] <diddledan> we're removing the proprietary flash plugin and replacing it with the proprietary widevine plugin
[12:52] <apt-get-moo> isn't this just the flash story all over again?
[12:52] <TwistedLucidity> And as it's just there to "OK" the content coming through, does it take anything to do with displaying the content?
[12:53] <diddledan> it has to decrypt it
[12:53] <diddledan> and drnm usually requires end-to-end encryption on the display chain using dvi or hdmi or displayport with hdcp
[12:53] <TwistedLucidity> But it's just a stream, no? It doesn't care about filesystem access, user actions etc etc.
[12:54] <diddledan> mozilla are planning on sandboxing the poo out of it, but it can still probably wiggle free
[12:57] <bashrc_> frying pan meets fire
[12:58] <bashrc_> flash is definitely on the way out
[12:58] <diddledan> and we all have to thank steve bobs for that
[12:59] <zmoylan-pi> we should get him a nobel peace prize or something...
[12:59] <diddledan> too late, he died
[12:59] <popey> tempting http://www.memorybits.co.uk/shop/microsd/sandisk-64gb-ultra-microsdxc-plus-sd-adapter-sdsdquan064gg4a/28252
[12:59] <zmoylan-pi> oh, you have to be alive for a nobel...
[12:59] <bashrc_> stevie started the trend, but really flash was hated long before that
[13:00] <diddledan> popey: that's cheap
[13:00] <popey> ya
[13:00] <diddledan> get two at twice the price
[13:00] <diddledan> that's the first rule of government spending iirc?
[13:01] <bashrc_> would go well with something like a Rpi2 or cubieboard4
[13:03]  * popey purchases
[13:03]  * popey will be putting it in his ubuntu phone
[13:04] <popey> and yay, just got a 10% off promo code, which is handy because I wanted a second card :)
[13:04] <diddledan> lol
[13:04] <diddledan> that's sneaky
[13:05] <zmoylan-pi> they're reeling popey in... :-)
[13:05] <popey> they always do that
[13:05] <popey> I have bought from them many times
[13:05] <popey> code is valid for 3 months too.
[13:06] <popey> also http://www.memorybits.co.uk/shop/search/sandisk-ultra-128gb-microsdxc-uhsi-memory-card-with-sd-adapter/27444
[13:06] <popey> :)
[13:06] <popey> imagine one of those in a converged phone...
[13:07] <zmoylan-pi> my first pc had 20mb drive...
[13:07] <ali1234> yes, imagine the huge storage capacity of an ssd from 3 years ago, combined with the transfer speed of a hdd from 10 years ago
[13:07] <diddledan> 360KB floppies FTW
[13:07] <zmoylan-pi> then when i added a 32mb cf card to my psion i felt invincible!! :-)
[13:14] <popey> anyone got any idea why this might happen? http://paste.ubuntu.com/10759863/ bug 1441053
[13:14] <lubotu3`> bug 1441053 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Two network adapters on same LAN causes 30s drop-outs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1441053
[13:15] <ali1234> google dns has been acting up recently
[13:15] <ali1234> by recently i mean the past 24 hours
[13:15] <popey> i could use any other IP and the same happens
[13:16] <ali1234> sure, just saying
[13:16] <popey> but yeah, i saw that too
[13:16] <ali1234> you have both adapters connected to the same network?
[13:17] <popey> yes
[13:17] <ali1234> why would that even work?
[13:18] <diddledan> popey: what about pinging other devices on your lan?
[13:18] <popey> its always worked
[13:18] <popey> I've had this laptop 3 years and for most of those 3 years it's been sat both wired and wifi at the same time, no issue
[13:19] <davmor2> popey: you on vivid?
[13:19] <popey> i am now, yes
[13:19] <ali1234> i'm going to blame systemd
[13:19] <popey> heh
[13:19] <popey> i could boot an old iso pre-systemd and test it I guess
[13:19] <popey> if I could find one...
[13:19] <diplo> I have the same, both enabled, never any issues. Sorry couldn't help more :)
[13:19] <diplo> Anyone here use Ansible at all ?
[13:20] <bigcalm> o/
[13:20] <zmoylan-pi> the ftl communicator in sci fi...? :-)
[13:20] <popey> morning bigcalm
[13:20] <diplo> Do you use it for ssh keys at all bigcalm ?
[13:20] <bigcalm> Ello popey
[13:20] <intrbiz> diplo: to deploy ssh keys?
[13:20] <bigcalm> diplo: um, I already have the ssh keys in place
[13:21] <diplo> I've seen the authorized_keys module, but what I'm thinking of doing is having one authorized keys file that I add remove from and push it as a file rather than use a specific module
[13:21] <diplo> Yeah so do I currently, wanting to automate removing / adding to lots of sites when someone leaves
[13:21]  * bigcalm passes over to intrbiz
[13:21] <popey> hmm, wonder if I can even uninstall systemd
[13:22] <diplo> But our users come from windows machines/linux servers etc so authorized_keys module won't work totally as wanted
[13:22] <ali1234> well you should be able to, i mean the first thing that happens when anyone mentions problems with systemd is someone comes along and shouts about how easy it is to uninstall it
[13:22] <intrbiz> diplo: I use the following: http://pastebin.com/wPCLd1JB
[13:23]  * bashrc_ likes systemd
[13:23] <intrbiz> diplo: if you just push one file, you need to make sure permissions are correct, and you won't play nice with other things or people
[13:23] <ali1234> i'm still using trusty
[13:23] <intrbiz> diplo: why won't authorized_keys module work?
[13:24] <diplo> Well if I do it like you've done, I'm guessing the public_keys is a directory with peoples pub keys ?
[13:24] <intrbiz> diplo: yup
[13:24] <diplo> Because some keys will come from puttygen etc, the way I was reading that module was that it looked at peoples home dirs etc
[13:25] <diplo> Yeah that may work instead
[13:25] <intrbiz> diplo: when someone leaves you simply move the pubkey to revoked dir
[13:25] <diplo> I like that idea!
[13:25] <diplo> I'm very very new to ansible, just like the simplicity!
[13:25] <intrbiz> diplo: putty just has a different format, it's easy enough to reformat to the openssh format
[13:25] <diplo> ssh keys is always an issue, don't ask what the staff at my place are like ( they still use telnet!!!!!! )
[13:25] <bashrc_> never used ansible. What's it for?
[13:26] <shauno> communication at greater-than-light-speed
[13:26] <diplo> Think puppet/chef but without having to run client side agents bashrc_
[13:26] <intrbiz> bashrc_: config management / deployment, it's like puppet, but less overhead
[13:26] <diplo> All over ssh
[13:26] <bashrc_> oh ok
[13:31] <diplo> Spin up a VM to test now
[13:32] <diplo> bah, tidied the machine up to reinstall and removed them all! :/
[13:33] <awilkins> Does the "Let's Encrypt" CA actually get shipped into Firefox / Chrome etc?
[13:33] <awilkins> Ah, they're not up and running yet
[13:33] <diplo> I've been waiting on them too
[13:33] <intrbiz> awilkins: IIRC their root was or is going to be cross signed
[13:34] <awilkins> intrbiz, Guess I'll get one from StartSSL
[13:34] <diplo> Q: How will your root be trusted? A: Initially, with IdenTrust cross-sig. Will apply to root programs ASAP.
[13:37] <intrbiz> awilkins: yeh, if it is non-commerical
[13:38] <diplo> intrbiz: Do you use ansible in a big way ?
[13:40] <intrbiz> diplo: I use it to deploy stuff as much as I can, not got any large scale stuff.  Used to manage around 100 machines with Puppet before
[13:41] <diplo> I'm having a truly hard time convincing my boss this is the way forward ( Automation not specifically ansible ) they still build everything manually
[13:41] <diplo> So spending a bit of time with out them knowing setting up one of our sites locally, and when he visits in the next few weeks I want to show how quickly I can deploy an exact setup ( takes them hours atm )
[13:42] <diplo> Did I mention they still use telnet!
[13:42] <intrbiz> diplo: ah, argue that automated deployments leads to more standardisation, higher quality deployments, less errors and after initial period, quicker
[13:42] <diplo> Done that, like pounding head against a brick wall, actions speak more here
[13:43] <diplo> I've written more documentation in the last few years than the rest of the 17 staff have in the last 15!
[13:43] <intrbiz> diplo: I like that with Ansible I can setup servers or work on servers which have been hand built, etc, running over SSH is a big win when you can't have an agent or master server
[13:43] <diplo> yeah defo, that's what I liked about it the first time I heard about it, watched a few youtube vids and was sold
[13:44] <intrbiz> diplo: hehe :) deployment scripts also end up being a form of documentation
[13:45] <intrbiz> diplo: nothing stop just you using ansible to deploy stuff, people are likely to follow when things work better for you
[13:45] <diplo> yeah, they don't write any comments in any of their code, so hopefully me writing this and documenting it and commenting it may start to sink in the usefulness of it
[13:45] <diplo> yeah, exactly what I'm thinking, deploy my local test vm's etc
[13:45] <intrbiz> diplo: what kind of stuff are you deploying?
[13:46] <diplo> We sell our own ERP software, text based with a browser based one in the works too, so it's setting up clients servers and making changes etc
[13:47] <diplo> We have about 80-100 customers, about 150 servers running CentOS 4 to 6
[13:47] <diplo> Web servers for the E-commerce part as well
[13:47] <diplo> Routers and mail servers for a lot of those customers too
[13:48] <diplo> We are the security nightmare!
[13:49] <intrbiz> diplo: note with centos 5 you need to install the python-json rpm
[13:50] <diplo> ah okay, noted thanks, only a few sites on 5, most are either 4 ( yes i know its EOL! ) and the rest on 6
[13:51] <diplo> We can't move to CentOS7 yet as the software wasn't written to support 64bit ( our own compiled software )
[13:52] <awilkins> Doesn't CentOS 7 have multiarch?
[13:54] <diplo> maybe, this software was written 15+years ago, fixes to make it work here and there
[13:54] <diplo> I think it specifically looks for x86 in uname, it's fixable to run, just going to take time
[14:00] <knightwise> ok , picking up a micro sd card later on for my raspberry pi
[14:01] <knightwise> I was thinking of hooking it up to a monitor and running mate on it but i don't realy see the point
[14:02] <zmoylan-pi> because you can... :-)
[14:02] <intrbiz> diplo: not based on Progress per chance?
[14:03] <awilkins> +
[14:03] <awilkins> Oops
[14:09] <diplo> Nope, Simple - simple by name and nature
[14:10] <diplo> It was another companies software, we bought them out about 10 years ago and now own the license, albeit we are pretty much the only ones who use it now
[14:10] <diplo> Another 5 years maybe and it'll be out of our hair :/
[14:10] <intrbiz> diplo: ah ok
[14:11] <diplo> Most of our staff are in their late 40's early 50's, been writing in it for 15-20 years
[14:12] <diplo> Started off in proper machinee code :)
[14:12] <intrbiz> sure
[14:12] <awilkins> Heh
[14:12] <diplo> GOTO 10 :P
[14:12] <zmoylan-pi> sounds like you'll be hiring them past retirement to keep it running
[14:12] <awilkins> I worked for a company that had to buy the Rich Text Format widget they were using because all their reporting depended on it and the company that sold it went to the wall
[14:13] <diplo> That's why me and my friend were employed, we worked for a company that used the ERP, but we were so big that we coded stuff ourselves for it, we had the source code
[14:13] <diplo> They basically can't employ anyone with our skills, I won't touch it though :)
[14:13] <diplo> Sounds like us awilkins
[14:14] <awilkins> We had escrow agreements with all our customers to be able to deliver the source if WE went bust
[14:14] <diplo> But it is so huge it's taken years to move stuff away from it, we're basically abstracting it now to our own software in c++ and eventually will be able to use any front end to interact
[14:15] <diplo> The company I used to work for had the same awilkins, we were too locked in with them to not be
[14:15] <awilkins> This was all VB3 of course :-)
[14:15] <diplo> :(
[14:16] <awilkins> It won't even run on 64-bit windows because it has no 64-32-16 bit thunking layer
[14:16] <diplo> Our web front end is currently php, but we've also written a c# client and android app
[14:16] <awilkins> TBH you learn a lot from using cheesy languages like VB3
[14:16] <awilkins> When you can write good code in VB, you've gained something in terms of discipline
[14:16] <zmoylan-pi> vb is not a bad language. it's tainted by basic and all the bad variants of those
[14:17] <zmoylan-pi> but the current versions are no longer basic
[14:17] <awilkins> Indeed
[14:17] <awilkins> I refuse to learn VB.NET on the grounds that it will erase my VB6 EEPROM
[14:17] <ali1234> come on... vb makes basic look like the best language ever
[14:17] <awilkins> And VB6 will be one of the COBOLs of the future
[14:17] <zmoylan-pi> and they let you paint yourself into a corner unlike languages of the time like pascal that made you do things the 'right way'
[14:17] <diplo> yeah I guess, same can be said for simple, we've written key generators and stuff like that in it now that was supposed to not be able to be done
[14:18] <bashrc_> on error continue all the things!
[14:18] <diplo> ooh vm is nearly done!
[14:18] <awilkins> Ugh
[14:18] <awilkins> I know of at least one "professional" coder who puts "On Error Resume Next" at the top of everything
[14:18] <bashrc_> yes I think that was it
[14:18] <awilkins> It's actually possible to do proper structured error handling in VB, I have some nice libs for it
[14:18] <davmor2> awilkins: you really need to stop doing that
[14:18] <awilkins> I have a VB6 dev kit on a VM in my archives
[14:18] <bashrc_> back in the day people would routinely use that, and it resulted in debugging nightmares
[14:20] <diplo> You never want to look at our code :D
[14:20] <diplo> it is a nightmare! No comments, some of the programs are 5-6k lines long
[14:21] <zmoylan-pi> never look at someone elses code :-)
[14:21]  * awilkins has Java programs where some of the *classes* are 5-6klines long
[14:22] <diplo> hah
[14:22] <zmoylan-pi> i remember 'fixing' some ancient code where it was 10k lines in one text file, no functions or procedures. just gosub and goto...
[14:22] <bashrc_> I think that's known as a hairball
[14:23] <zmoylan-pi> and line numbers were in an interesting nonsequential order...
[14:23] <intrbiz> I decompiled a Java app we brought in in a previous job, to debug some lockups
[14:23] <zmoylan-pi> i saw it as more kerplunk :-)
[14:23] <intrbiz> their util class was 26,000 lines long
[14:23]  * awilkins finds the Java class with 6.125 klines of copde
[14:23] <awilkins> Well, that's a nasty smell right there "Util class"
[14:23] <intrbiz> hehe
[14:24] <intrbiz> I have on in my code, it is mostly used for: static isEmpty(String s)
[14:24] <intrbiz> this product was pretty special
[14:24] <intrbiz> web forms software
[14:25] <intrbiz> riddled with bugs
[14:25] <awilkins> isEmpty(String s) because s may be null?
[14:25] <awilkins> or "empty" includes whitespace?
[14:25] <intrbiz> awilkins: s == null || s.length == 0
[14:27] <awilkins> Would probably prefer to just use Preconditions.assertNotNull(s) on the first line
[14:27] <awilkins> If null has a special meaning, deal with it explicitly, otherwise, treat it as an error
[14:27] <intrbiz> not always an option when dealing with user input
[19:31] <diddledan> thankyou LinuxFormat: they pointed me to https://code.launchpad.net/~kirkland/hollywood/trunk
[21:10] <xboxOne> Uhh
[21:10] <xboxOne> What is the difference between Ubuntu and Ubuntu-uk?
[21:13] <daftykins> that one is primarily support
[21:13] <daftykins> this one is regional and strays a little more off topic and chatty
[21:14] <xboxOne> Ah
[21:14] <daftykins> if you have a question, you can ask in both - but might get more responses over there
[21:14] <xboxOne> But you also provide support, right?
[21:14] <xboxOne> Is true people saying Ubuntu is dying?
[21:15] <daftykins> that doesn't sound like a support question to me
[21:15] <xboxOne> LOL!
[21:15] <xboxOne> You said this place is chatty
[21:15] <xboxOne> so I am chatting
[21:16] <daftykins> good for you :)
[21:16] <xboxOne> Hey guess which IRC client I am using? :)
[21:16] <daftykins> i don't know how anyone gauges any given distros lifespan
[21:16] <daftykins> er i'm not especially fussed
[21:16] <xboxOne> Well, people say because it uses unity
[21:16] <xboxOne> it sucks now
[21:16] <xboxOne> and therefore off the wagon
[21:17] <daftykins> plenty of other desktop spins to use, xubuntu, lubuntu, kubuntu, ubuntu gnome, ubuntu MATE
[21:17] <xboxOne> Man, there is just lots of flavors for Ubuntu
[21:38] <daftykins> yip
[22:45] <m0nkey_> Heh, not forgetting the rest of the other window manager, awesome, ratpoison, gnustep, e17...