/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/04/09/#xubuntu-devel.txt

Unit193Gookies. :D00:37
knomeooh, he's back00:37
Unit193Yarp.00:38
Unit193I gotted a mention.00:39
knomeno kidding there00:39
Unit193sidi: Congrats on the gtk+3.0 mention.00:41
bluesabre+100:46
Unit193bluesabre: Can I update ppa:extras to very shortly point to xfdashy and xfce4-soundmenu bugzilla links?  We want people testing to report, and a reminder helps (but grows he description a bit. :/ )05:52
Unit193fb6fab41        02_add-light-locker-to-xflock4.patch07:19
Unit193fb6fab41        03_add-light-locker-to-xflock4.patch07:19
Unit193Nice.07:19
Unit193https://sources.debian.net/src/xfce4-session/4.12.1-1/debian/patches/ go home Debian, you're drunk.07:22
elfylet's hope it's not UTC there - 7am is too early for that behaviour 07:23
Unit193http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-session/patch/?id=26f9ae8df629f02af0773df2ed82db6b85c5b556 I wanted that, Uploading xfce4-session_4.12.1-1ubuntu2~15.04.dsc: done.07:30
sidiUnit193, were you guys having problems with it?08:23
Unit193Don't think so.08:23
ochosimorning everyone08:42
sidimorning Simon08:45
Unit193Morning, Steve.08:45
ochosimorning, err, Unit?08:45
sidi:D09:11
bluesabreUnit193: yup, mentioned that earlier about the double patches, but we got that from debian :)11:38
bluesabreUnit193: I added you to -dev, so yeah, update the ppa info11:39
knomeUnit193, sure, let's have the discussion here.21:04
knomere: discussion on whether the community voice is heard or not, and whether it can have any effect on what the team decides21:05
knomethe sidetrack being if this channel is too "frightening" for people to talk in (because of logging or the more official status, whatever that might mean)21:06
GridCubei tried to make a rationale of why i would like to change gmb, i think ali is making it again, but there is no interest in hearing about it21:06
knomeGridCube, and how do you come to that conclusion?21:06
GridCubebecause there was no other input than mine in my first try, and ali is doing all the work alone again21:07
knomeso to be "interested in hearing", you think that several team members should "help" the person who wants change to do his comparison?21:08
GridCubeagain i understand the main counter argument, no one is willing to mantain the packages they don't care about, so who will?21:08
knomethat's not even a counter argument what i'm asking about21:08
GridCubeknome: yes, because they are taking the time to try and help the project be a little bit better, at least some input, some help, something that tells us that we are being listened21:09
knomeGridCube, but don't you think the reason why team members aren't doing it in the first place is the lack of time?21:10
knomeGridCube, it isn't like people were working on it, and when somebody outside the team started working on it, everybody washed their hands from it21:10
Unit193knome: Fine.  You act like you're saying "patches welcome", but everything else you say seems to be "Well formatted patches that conform to our standards and don't change anything else welcome"21:11
GridCubesure, absolutelly, and tahts why is correct that the people who thinks that things need to change are the ones who have to do the work, but at least we would like to know that we are going to be listened, that theres some interest from your side to hear about it21:11
knomeUnit193, how do you come to that conclusion?21:12
Unit193It's an impression.21:12
knomeGridCube, we're definitely interested.21:12
GridCubedoesnt seems like it, sorry21:12
Unit193GridCube +121:12
GridCubeim not the first one, nor is ali1234, to point gmb is not a good media player, but theres absolutelly no interest on hearing about it21:13
GridCubeand thats just an example21:13
knomewhat should the team do then to make it feel like we're listening, if we leave out "work with them" (since it's a question of lack of time to begin with)21:13
GridCubei dont know21:13
knomeGridCube, the reason why i've told him that i am not interested in hearing why gmb is not a good media player is because i'd rather hear which application is a good media player21:14
GridCubethat has been done, ali1234 has done it, i have done it21:14
brainwash15.04 will be released very soon, so there is plenty of time to discuss if the audio player should be changed in 15.10 or later21:15
brainwashthere is no hurry21:15
knomeGridCube, i appreciated your effort, but maybe you dropped the ball a bit too early21:15
GridCubemaybe21:15
Unit193Heck, use aqualung for all I care, as long as it isn't gmb.21:15
Unit193knome: You/ochosi decided with GridCube at the time that perhaps because of his strong dislike for gmb, his bias may cloud things.21:16
knometbh, it became gmb-bashing21:16
knomewhich is unproductive because that doesn't address how we should fix the issue but what the issue is21:17
GridCubeim not saying im not at fault here, i just felt un-apreciated, i felt that whatever i did was falling on deaf ears so it made no sense for me to try, same with gthumb, we got it in once we had to drop gimp for space reasons, it was good because its a good replacement, next cycles it was deleted because "does the same as gimp and ristretto"21:17
GridCubesure, whynot get rid of gimp and ristretto and leave gthumb then?21:17
knomeGridCube, because nobody proposed that when the discussion was open, only once we had started voting on the options brought up.21:18
GridCubei did21:18
knomeright, but i didn't see much support for that21:18
NoskcajGridCube, I'd support it if someone writes a menubar patch for gthumb, until then, it's staying unmaintained in debian and unused by us21:19
GridCubeNoskcaj: good point, thats why i keep saying that it makes no sense for me to propose anything because "who will maintain it"21:19
knomeGridCube, but that's not something the team can affect, is it?21:20
GridCubei can't do it, i dont have the technicall abilities to do so21:20
GridCubeexactly, and thats again why i dropped the case in the first place21:20
NoskcajGridCube, Actually, there is now a debian maintainer. So all you need is to ask gnome devs enough times for a patch21:20
knomeit's sad but true that the only way to know how many people actually NEED gimp (or anything else) installed in the default installation is to drop it and hear the feedback21:20
Unit193I'll admit that while I think gimp can be overkill, it's a nice one to have.21:21
knomethat's one of the reasons we are doing this well before the LTS release so we have time to react to feedback21:21
GridCubewe had already droped it21:21
GridCubenothing really bad happened at all21:21
knomeGridCube, yep.21:21
knomeGridCube, that's my position, it's probably going to be just fine21:22
knomeeven if people argue vocally about it21:22
GridCubeagreed21:22
knomeUnit193, i kind of think the same... then i realize i very rarely even open gimp21:22
Unit193True.21:22
GridCube(if we provide alternative to image edition)21:22
knomeso i don't think it's a requirement even for me (if i composed my own default seed), and i happen to work with artwork21:23
knomeGridCube, even without an alternative.21:23
knomeGridCube, i'm not using anything that can be counted as an alternative regularly21:23
Unit193I tend to use it, when I could have used something like xnview in Windows. :P21:23
knomea small set of scripts or something would be fine for most21:24
knomerotate, resize21:24
knomethings like that21:24
GridCubeimagemagic has a sort of gui that does that, but its very ugly21:25
knomeGridCube, i said that in the meeting already, but it could even be a set of thunar custom actions as far as i care21:26
knome(that did it via imagemagick's CLI commands)21:26
GridCubemmhm, that could be nice21:26
knomeand light.21:27
mrkrampsyou could use extactimage instead which should be smaller than imagemagick21:28
knomewell again, the technical implementation is a side-issue21:28
knomeif somebody is interested enough, they'll work their way this way or the other21:29
knomeand even imagemagick is smaller than gimp...21:29
ochositime and time again, it's interesting how much the emotion the default app set conjures21:40
ochosiwhoa, i need to redact that sentence, let me try again...21:40
knomelol21:40
ochositime and time again, it's interesting to see how much emotion the default app set conjures21:41
knomeright21:42
knomebut it's also sad to see that it generates frustration, because "the team isn't listening"21:42
ochosiyeah, oh well. people complain about various things all the time21:43
ochosii'm not happy about people being frustrated, then again i really feel that i try to listen21:43
knomesure, but i wonder if there is anything that the team could help to fight that frustration21:43
knomeor even some team members.21:43
ochosithen again, i'm frustrated about people expecting *me* to do the things they're interested in or want changed21:44
knomei mean, even some team members being frustrated21:44
knomeor things that simple aren't up high enough on the priority, so they are being postponed21:44
ochosiis this still (and foremostly) about gmusicbrowser?21:45
knomei believe that it is21:45
knomeand that's also a sad part21:45
knomebecause the default media player choice/change shouldn't be about gmb, it should be about the other players..21:45
ochosiso what's the status on the comparison that ali started?21:47
knomehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/W/DefaultMediaPlayer21:47
Unit193Considering it's not just me (as a team member) annoyed?  Yeah.21:47
knomeUnit193, i didn't get that21:48
mrkrampseh, audacious can do "jump to song"21:49
ochosiyeah, i dont think the table is completely correct. also, that's only a starting point21:49
knomemmazing, to be fair, gmb can do several of the tasks mentioned in the table that it's marked as "can't do"21:50
knomemrkramps, ^21:50
ochosiUnit193: so what about dropping gmusicbrowser without replacement?21:50
knomei guess the outcome depends on the subjectively relative findability of those features21:50
mmazingi was gonna say haha, geez, i just join and people are already angry with me21:50
Unit193Just, hidden, in the closet behind the old table.21:51
knomemmazing, not angry at all, just commenting. and sorry for the accidental highlight21:51
Unit193ochosi: At this point, that'd be great.  Parole has a basic media library no?21:51
mmazingknome: i know :) just kidding around21:51
Unit193ochosi: But, I'm fine with recommending gmb, or something.21:51
ochosiUnit193: nope, no library. but playback and playlists/streams etc21:51
knomeochosi, Unit193: some people argue that there is no way we couldn't do without a "real" media player21:52
knomeerr, "could do"...21:52
ochosithey might say the same thing about office suits21:52
knomeyes.21:52
elfyoh my 21:52
ochosiand given that we don't have the final result of the vote, it could happen21:52
knomeelfy, welcome...21:52
ochosii mean seriously you guys, how bad can it be?21:52
Unit193Hah. :D21:52
Unit193!info webservice-office-zoho21:52
ubottuwebservice-office-zoho (source: webservice-office-zoho): Ubuntu Webservice Office (Zoho). In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4.3-0ubuntu1 (utopic), package size 21 kB, installed size 164 kB21:52
knomeochosi, i'm fine with dropping gmb too with no replacement.21:52
knomeas i've said before, it seems like the only "not wrong" option21:53
Unit193But, we're not trying to create xubuntu-core with xubuntu-desktop, fwiw.21:53
ochosiblog XY will go "they destroyed xubuntu!!!" or "they mistreat their users" (mistakingly thinking that we're service providers to customers), but that'll be about it21:53
knomeUnit193, no, there is still FF/TB at least...21:53
ochosiUnit193: yeah, i agree21:53
ochosihaha, the XUL crap. how i wouldn't mind to get rid of those two ;)21:54
mmazingwhat is gmb again? not having luck on google :\21:54
ochosimmazing: shorthand for gmusicbrowser21:54
knomeochosi, and replaced with what? the big brother goo-gel stuff?21:54
ochosiknome: midori?21:54
knomemidori's web browsing abilities are relatively bad.21:55
Unit193xombrero is even better.21:55
knomegranted, i haven't followed its development very closely lately, but it's not really what people excpect from a browser21:55
brainwashreplace it with firefox-gtk3 in the future21:55
GridCubevivaldi 21:56
GridCubei mean we trowing names around21:56
ochosiyeah, let's not go into this further. my point is: i *am* open to changing our default app set and i've repeatedly said i don't mind replacing or dropping gmusicbrowser, so i'd really love it if we could take a step back and take a breath21:56
mmazingi, for one, don't like seeing stuff like rhythmbox/etc installed by default (and gmb isn't installed on my version of xubuntu 14.04, anyway), it seems like the sort of thing that people will decide which one they like and install it on their own21:56
ochosimmazing: they do that with pretty much everything anyway21:57
Unit193brainwash: Had problems building. :D21:57
mmazingochosi: agreed21:57
Unit193knome: And, version in Debian is so very old.21:57
brainwashUnit193: it will work at some point21:57
Unit193ochosi: Well yes and no.  If you want barebones, install that.21:57
ochosimmazing: which is why i said that these discussions usually get blown out of proportion and overly emotional (for my taste)21:58
knomeUnit193, at least we can affect that though..21:58
mmazingochosi: also agreed :)21:58
Unit193ochosi: Right, but is the default is hardly usable but yet you still can't get rid of it? :P21:59
ochosiUnit193: again with the flaming?21:59
Unit193ochosi: Just trying to say, there's another side of it.21:59
knomeyes, i would so much rather here what is *so much better* with the new app somebody is proposing than what is wrong with the current one22:00
ochosis/here/hear/22:00
GridCubethats the other thing, the culture of "its just an apt-get away", i agree to that, but i think we need to teach people to use apt-get/usc, we should have a simple "welcome to xubuntu" thing that has a few pages teaching people how to get any software they want22:00
Unit193knome: Sure, but the one I have installed isn't an option as it isn't in the repos. :P22:01
ochosithen package it22:01
elfynot sayiing anything22:01
ochosido something about it, other than whining22:01
elfyso 22:02
Unit193ochosi: Already did.  You think I installed into /usr/local/? :D22:02
ochosihehe, well who knows :)22:03
knomeochosi, thank you mr. grammar police22:03
ochosiknome: yw22:03
Unit193So, therefor I did do something about it.22:03
ochosiUnit193: well package it for others then22:03
ochosiif you think it's a viable candidate22:03
knomeGridCube, we are welcoming contributions for documentation too22:03
mrkrampsor at least tell us which one it is -.-22:03
Unit193ochosi: I did, it's in their daily ppa.  I don't think it's fit for Ubuntu repos because of bundled libs, and another xul.22:04
ochosiUnit193: and really, please stop this "gmb is not usable" nonsense. i'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with you here...22:04
ochosioh no, not another xul22:04
knomeochosi, in your opinion22:04
Unit193ochosi: Ah, well that's what I've read from others.  I"ve not used it long enough to find out if it's "utterly unusable" as they say.22:04
knomeochosi, got to make that disclaimer so people won't think it's an official statement for the project.22:05
Unit193Eh, "not another xul" is somewhat valid.22:05
* Unit193 sighs.22:05
knomeUnit193, so you are passing on flaming comments from others without checking if they are at least somewhat true? nice :)22:05
Unit193knome: It's called paraphrasing...22:06
knomeUnit193, or FUD.22:06
Unit193Perhaps, yes.  Either way.  Quotes likely would have helped you.22:06
knomebut ultimately, i don't see how mocking GMB actually gets anything done.22:07
elfymight be useful if people wandered off and did something else here22:07
ochosielfy: yeah, good idea :)22:08
knomeor maybe the strategy is to mock it until the XPL bursts into tears, cracks, and promises to install every media player22:08
* ochosi wanders off to do something else22:08
knomeand it might be useful to actually finish off the discussions, instead of stopping them when everybody has a bad taste in their mouth and thus making all of the future discussions about the same topic reprises of the previous one22:09
elfyit's not a discussion, it's a bunch of bad mouthing at each other22:10
knomemaybe it should be ended before it turns into that22:12
elfyI'm not going to get involved in media player discussions, my point was made a long time ago and hasn't changed, so you all carry on 22:13
Unit193Nooope, as I've said, I'm done too now.22:14
GridCubeknome: im not talking about documentation though, im talking about something more visible, for example a simple slideshow html5 file linked from the desktop that says "welcome to xubuntu"  and has like 10 pages just telling you how to get to documetation, how to install programs in a visual and simple way, some alternatives to22:16
GridCubemedia/ofimatic/webbrowsing/ims/graphics, and thats it, with links to install frm usc or not i dont know, i think that would take most of this "what default application" discussions out of order22:16
knomeUnit193, i'm sorry if i offended by anything; that's obviously not the goal. furthermore, as i see it, there are many things we agree about even within this discussion, and i'm sorry for not always being able to see, or express that clearly enogh22:16
knomeGridCube, that's part of the documentation22:17
GridCubeok22:17
knomeGridCube, http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/managing-applications.html#ubuntu-software-center22:17
knomeGridCube, i understand that's not exactly what you are describing, but is there something else than screenshots that could be improved there?22:18
knomeGridCube, the whole chapter really (http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/managing-applications.html)22:18
knomeGridCube, and of course, trying to make the documentation more visible...22:18
elfyGridCube: one of the *buntu derivatives do something similar I think, 22:20
elfyor could be something else entirely, while since I've seen it, but shows when you boot first time22:20
knomeone of the actionable items would be to add a shortcut to the documentation on the desktop22:20
elfywith a 'Don't show this again' checkbox22:20
knomeelfy, why so shady about the derivative :P22:21
elfybecause I'm really not sure which it was 22:21
knomegood rationale.22:21
elfyif I thought it was Mint I'd have said so :)22:21
GridCubeknome: my opinion is, thats just a wall of text that 94.325% of the people will not bother to read. Im talking about something shiny, simple and squared, something a newbie can just waste 40 seconds on see all and learn the basics22:21
GridCubeand then they can delete the file from their desktop22:22
elfyI assume you are meaning something *like* the install slideshow, that plays on first boot? 22:22
knomeGridCube, please, don't understand this as a snarky comment as it really isn't; it's the most serious tone i have: do you think that the whole documentation is more or less not useful, since it doesn't have a very simple approach to the topics?22:23
GridCubeelfy: yes22:23
knomethe other actionable item could be to add a slide about USC (back) to the installer slideshow then22:23
GridCubeknome: no, i just understand how documentaion usually works in any project around the whole planet, not here, our documentation is excellent, users dont like to read them22:24
elfyknome: I think that GridCube is talking about more detail than the slideshow itself gives22:24
knomeelfy, maybe, but he also wanted a shiny thing that's very short and easily accessible, which i think is equal to the slideshow22:25
GridCubeim just talking about a guide that welcomes new users and gives fancy and graphical indications of how to do basics22:25
knomeGridCube, so do i interpret you right that you'd want to see more screenshots on the documentation?22:25
elfy^^22:25
knomeGridCube, or is it something else than that22:26
GridCubeknome: no, documentaion is documentation22:26
GridCubeits not the same22:26
knomeok...22:26
knomeso in addition to the documentation that goes through the basic stuff, we should have some other documentation that goes through basic stuff?22:26
knomei'm confused...22:26
elfyno22:26
elfynot docs22:26
elfy*like* slideshow sort of thing22:27
GridCubeyou can point to documentation from the slideshow22:27
mrkrampspictures/animation to explain the first steps right after first boot of installed system22:27
elfybut more about how to use USC22:27
mrkrampssomething like "take the tour"22:27
knomeelfy, (still no snarky sound, still serious) but isn't it basically documentation if we tell the people the same things we tell them on the documentation?22:27
knomeGridCube, we do22:27
GridCube"read more about media players here" [link to docs]22:27
elfymrkramps: that's my understanding22:27
knomewhat would the tour consist of?22:27
knomecould it be another chapter in the documentation that was more "graphical"/had more screenshots?22:28
elfyknome: yes ofc - but different people access information in different ways, I'm happy to read a 600 page book on ecology 22:28
knomei'm failing to see why another piece of technical platform is needed here...22:28
elfywould hate to read a 600 page book on gmb ;)22:28
knomewe can turn the documentation into marvelous things22:28
mrkrampsknome, absolutely nobody who really should is reading a manual22:28
knomemrkramps, but that's hardly our fault... :)22:29
elfyknome: it's not so much technical - but a halfway, enough to get you going platform22:29
elfyGridCube: ^^ is that what you mean? 22:29
GridCubeyes22:29
knomei wasn't talking about the content though22:29
elfyI understand where you are then :)22:29
knomei was talking about the platform where it is build on22:29
knomei understand what GridCube is saying too22:29
knomebut i don't understand why it couldn't be either 1) on the slideshow 2) on the documentation22:30
elfythen the platform is slideshowy 22:30
knome-y?22:30
GridCubei understand knome point, we could have just one slideshow for each chapter of the documentation, that links to the full text22:30
elfyand then it's too long22:30
knomeGridCube, i would guess that nobody would follow the slideshow if it was like that though22:30
knomeGridCube, i wouldn't..22:31
elfywhen people were installing from cd to hdd 22:31
knome(i'll happily read a manual though)22:31
GridCubenot many people would22:31
elfynow I'm lucky to see the slideshow for 5 minutes 22:31
GridCubeand im talking as a librarian22:31
knomeGridCube, sure, i just wanted to point that out to say that even if i think (well-written) manuals are okay, i wouldn't enjoy a slideshow with an introduction of all the manual chapters22:32
knomei'd just rather want to dig deep in the manual right away22:32
knomebrb22:32
GridCubeyeah well was just a random though22:32
GridCubei think that 10 pages slideshow is enough, like "welcome|handling files|internet|messaging|music/video|offimatic|games|advanced stuff|read more in docs"22:34
knomeGridCube, we have a lot more slides to cover in the slideshow too22:34
mrkrampsGridCube, you forgot "installing software"22:34
knomeGridCube, we've come to the conclusion that 7-8 is the right amount22:34
elfyknome: I really think the install slideshow is the wrong place22:34
elfyfor what GridCube is talking about22:34
knomeelfy, you are likely right, but then, we already do have a link to the documentation from the slideshow22:35
knomewhich is why i asked my original question:22:35
=== brainwash_ is now known as brainwash
elfyyes 22:35
GridCubemrkramps: no, in each of those you say "if you want more options to ... you can get them in the usc"22:35
knomehow can we improve the docs so that it's more accessible for a new user22:35
knomeor what kind of tour could the documentation have22:35
elfythat just goes back to the some like docs, some don't :D22:35
elfyha ha 22:36
knomeelfy, but if you don't like docs, and don't read them, you also can't whine that we didn't tell you how to install your $favorite_music_player22:36
knome:)22:36
elfyright, so docs tour - great, expand in the slide about the thing your linking to in a bit more detail22:36
GridCubeknome: the slideshow just happens on installing22:36
GridCubethe current one22:36
elfyit doesn't have to be Xpx by Xpx22:37
GridCubeand only if you reach the installing point22:37
mrkrampsmaybe just upload a tour at YT?22:37
GridCubeyou cant just launch the slideshow to see it 22:37
elfymake it larger, expand the detail - link to docs22:37
knomeelfy, sounds like a good idea to me22:37
GridCubeagain i think somthing like an html5 page, not even a proper program22:38
elfyhalf way house between the basics and the docs22:38
knomeelfy, and the tour in the docs is always accessible after installation too (GridCube ^)22:38
knomeGridCube, like our docs :)22:38
GridCubeshould do it, and most anyone could maintain it22:38
GridCubeknome: is it?22:38
knomeGridCube, well it's written in docbook, but it's shipped as html22:38
knomebut we're maintaining that already, so adding more to it isn't a problem22:39
elfyGridCube: and do you have the knowledge to do some of this? 22:39
knomesetting up another platform, for one, would mean more maintaining burden22:39
knomewhich is why i'm against that22:39
elfybecause if so I could try and help too 22:39
GridCubeim am not a webdeveloper but i checked online and theres plenty of opensource slideshows available on github and what not that could be used22:40
elfyknome: but once set up? a change in UCS in docs - how to make sure change to *new thing* happens22:40
GridCubei dont think it would be so hard to start from there and create our own22:40
knomeelfy, the same as everything in the docs - we make sure it's up-to-date22:40
GridCubei could try it22:40
elfyGridCube: neither am I - but trying has to be worth it - and I could try with you 22:40
knomeGridCube, the question is not only to set up the "slideshow", it's about setting the packaging and a lot more to be installed with xubuntu22:41
GridCubeyes22:41
elfyknome: ack, so just about management22:41
GridCubei understand22:41
knomeelfy, yes, contrary to another platform, which would also need a setup (and duplicated the package/upload -like management)22:42
elfyright22:42
GridCubeso it makes no sense to try to do something because we wont have any help to get it done, got it22:43
knomeGridCube, you're understanding it wrong, really.22:43
knomei'm strong +1 for adding new content and making it look different22:43
knomebut i'm strong -1 for adding complexity via additional platforms22:44
elfyGridCube: I'm sure that we'd get help when we've got a working model, why not work on that first 22:44
GridCubewell i dont understand your plataform so i cant help22:44
GridCubeelfy: sure22:44
knomeGridCube, we can help you convert your content into docbook22:44
elfyknome: is docbook how slideshow is written?22:45
knomeelfy, no, the slideshow again is pure html22:45
GridCubei dont understand then22:45
knomeGridCube, what don't you understand?22:45
GridCubehow do you get a slideshow if thats not how you do an slideshow22:46
elfyknome: GridCube is envisaging a slideshow for this stuff - eg html22:46
elfyI think 22:46
knomei don't understand why it needs to be a slideshow22:46
GridCubeim not talking about adding screenshots to documentation22:46
knomebut fair enough, let's discuss that direction22:47
GridCubebecause its visual, its fast and its simple22:47
elfyGridCube: neither am I at this point22:47
knomeif it can't be inside the documentation, then you'll need another package22:47
GridCubeyes, thats the point22:47
elfyso we'll need another package 22:47
knomeand somebody to set that up22:47
mrkrampsand i have to purge it22:48
GridCubeand no one will22:48
elfyor help others learn how to 22:48
knomeas well as all the things related to that (which i don't understand)22:48
GridCube?22:48
elfyGridCube: how about we focus on what we CAN do now, and worry about tomorrow then22:48
elfyI couldn't wire a jumbo jet up till I learnt how22:48
elfymy plan is to make Unit193 go grey before me :p22:49
GridCubeits just really tiring elfy 22:49
knomeanother thing that somewhat worries me is that you want another way to tell people how to install packages while the documentation already does that22:49
GridCubeand?22:50
Unit193elfy: Already had some random whites.22:50
GridCuberedundancy is good in this case22:50
elfyGridCube: yea I know what you mean, but if people like you and I don't do the things that we think others might like, who else will 22:50
knomeGridCube, redundancy means more things to maintain, eg. more time to be used to maintain the stuff, not create new22:51
elfyunless it's adding something 22:51
GridCubeyes22:51
knomesure.22:52
elfythat is for people who don't want to read loads of things if the basics are graspable with a shove in the right direction22:52
GridCubei have to repeat then: so it makes no sense to try to do something because we wont have any help to get it done, got it22:52
elfyat that point it IS worth it 22:52
knomeelfy, which is why i'm asking - could a more graphical chapter in the documentation do the same thing?22:52
GridCubeno22:52
GridCubebecause people dont go to docuemtation in the first place22:52
elfyI don't think it's even close knome 22:52
elfyGridCube: and that's not why I think that 22:53
knomeGridCube, then let me ask my second question again... how do we make people go to the documentation?22:53
elfythey are 2 different ways of promulgating the information imo22:53
GridCubeknome: we change the reality of the world,or we add a slideshow that points people to it22:54
GridCubethe information we would want in the slideshow is already on the documentation, we would just make it visible and spark the suer interest on it, so they can go and keep reading if they feel the need22:55
elfyGridCube: that ^^22:56
elfyperhaps the way to approach this is for GridCube and me to go and make a working *slideshow* then go from there22:57
elfywe have 2 cycles22:57
knomewhat's the plan B if it's not possible to include it in the next LTS because of some limitation, be it lack of time or technical problems?22:59
GridCubeif its an html slideshow it could go on the website and have a link from whiskers to it?23:00
knomeand before you go too deep in anything, have a quick chat with slickymaster and the technical people on the channel to discuss what they think of this, how they would like it to be executed, and if it's technically doable within some timeframe23:00
elfyPlan B would be to make sure that -team thinks it is a good long term thing for Xubuntu to have and it comes when it comes23:00
knomethen let's make sure that is involved with plan A....23:01
knomebut i was talking about a technical plan B :)23:01
knomeGridCube, potentially, though it would likely need some changes on the website code23:02
elfyknome: who knows, at the moment it's an idea, a useful one imo and I'm happy to put time to it 23:02
knomeas i said, you should talk with david23:03
elfyyep 23:03
elfyI can 23:03
knomeanother thing to consider is how it would overlap with the slideshow, and the tour on the website23:04
knome(which is currently another kind of tour....)23:04
GridCubei think it being hosted on the website should be a secondary option, i would like for people to have it witouth internet access23:05
GridCubelike docs23:05
elfythen it has to be on the install23:08
elfyGridCube: I really think that the best way forward is for us to get a working idea together23:08
elfythen we can put it to -team as a proposal23:08
elfythen we find what needs to be done and dealt with23:09
elfyotherwise we get into a protracted session of working out when and where we do things, without actually doing anything23:09
elfyuntil other people have something in front of them it is just words and ideas :)23:10
GridCuberight23:10
GridCubeagreed23:10
elfyGridCube: ok - cool23:11
elfyplease remember though that release is in 2 weeks or so, and I'm going to be all :( for a bit23:12
knomeelfy, just ":(" ?23:12
elfywas being positive :)23:12
knome:)23:12
elfyGridCube: how about you think about the order of what we look at, and how we can communicate together on it - maybe trello or ... 23:13
knomeelfy, a leading question!! :P23:13
elfyheh 23:14
GridCubei never understood how trello works23:14
GridCubebut im willing to try it again23:14
elfyit's just a whiteboard you can scribble on, move things about 23:14
elfyit's as complicated as you make it 23:15
elfyGridCube: we can do the communicating anyway you want, makes no difference to me23:15
elfyjust not IRC - timezones ... 23:15
GridCubemails sound razonable to me23:16
elfyGridCube: it's YOUR project, I'm just giving you my time and thoughts ;)23:16
elfyok - wfm23:16
GridCube:)23:16
elfyone thing though23:17
GridCubeperfect23:17
GridCubesay23:17
elfycan we work out first how many *pages* give them names23:17
elfythen only talk about *foo* on the foo mail - I thread them here 23:17
GridCubemmhm, or maybe one of those ubuntu pads we can edit each other so if someone else wants to join or see they have it available23:18
elfypossible23:19
GridCubei can create one of those right now23:19
elfybut again we need to have pad per *page*23:19
GridCubemaybe a main one and then them separated23:19
knomeor one pad with separators23:20
elfythere can be a general one to index others and to get the general direction sorted23:20
knome(just an idea, it would be much more accessible, considering the pages are short)23:20
GridCubemmhm i like knome's idea23:20
knomealso easier to follow the big picture23:20
GridCubewe start with one and see if we need more as time comes23:21
elfyok - well never done that nor set it up 23:21
GridCubehttp://pad.ubuntu.com/1Ki6doF41F23:27
knomebtw, for the future,23:28
knomeyou can have a named pad23:28
knomejust go to http://pad.ubuntu.com/any-name and it'll ask to create any-name for you23:28
GridCubeah23:28
GridCubewelp, too late now23:28
knomewell you can just create a new one23:29
knomeand dismiss that :P23:29
knomeif you want, that is23:29
elfyGridCube: copy paste for the win :)23:29
elfyknome: what do you mean by pad seperators? 23:30
elfyGridCube: slow down a moment23:31
knomeelfy, add a few blank lines, then drop a line of --------------------------'s23:31
knomeelfy, you can even make that bold and uncolor it so it pops out more23:31
knomeor make them –––––'s and bold23:32
knomeso they'll look like a unified line..23:32
elfyGridCube: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-install-slides23:32
elfyknome: oh right23:32
elfyI thought there was a way to have multiple pads linked ... 23:32
knomeoh, nope23:32
knomeat least not how we're doing it23:33
knomebut that's another topic...23:33
elfy:)23:33
elfyGridCube: I would make that page a general discussion, you can go to http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-install-slides_123:34
elfyand make that just discussion on slide 1 23:35
elfyit will get very confusing otherwise23:35
GridCubesure i just wanted to have an overview in the first place23:35
elfyyep23:36

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