[00:37] <Unit193> Gookies. :D
[00:37] <knome> ooh, he's back
[00:38] <Unit193> Yarp.
[00:39] <Unit193> I gotted a mention.
[00:39] <knome> no kidding there
[00:41] <Unit193> sidi: Congrats on the gtk+3.0 mention.
[00:46] <bluesabre> +1
[05:52] <Unit193> bluesabre: Can I update ppa:extras to very shortly point to xfdashy and xfce4-soundmenu bugzilla links?  We want people testing to report, and a reminder helps (but grows he description a bit. :/ )
[07:19] <Unit193> fb6fab41        02_add-light-locker-to-xflock4.patch
[07:19] <Unit193> fb6fab41        03_add-light-locker-to-xflock4.patch
[07:19] <Unit193> Nice.
[07:22] <Unit193> https://sources.debian.net/src/xfce4-session/4.12.1-1/debian/patches/ go home Debian, you're drunk.
[07:23] <elfy> let's hope it's not UTC there - 7am is too early for that behaviour 
[07:30] <Unit193> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-session/patch/?id=26f9ae8df629f02af0773df2ed82db6b85c5b556 I wanted that, Uploading xfce4-session_4.12.1-1ubuntu2~15.04.dsc: done.
[08:23] <sidi> Unit193, were you guys having problems with it?
[08:23] <Unit193> Don't think so.
[08:42] <ochosi> morning everyone
[08:45] <sidi> morning Simon
[08:45] <Unit193> Morning, Steve.
[08:45] <ochosi> morning, err, Unit?
[09:11] <sidi> :D
[11:38] <bluesabre> Unit193: yup, mentioned that earlier about the double patches, but we got that from debian :)
[11:39] <bluesabre> Unit193: I added you to -dev, so yeah, update the ppa info
[21:04] <knome> Unit193, sure, let's have the discussion here.
[21:05] <knome> re: discussion on whether the community voice is heard or not, and whether it can have any effect on what the team decides
[21:06] <knome> the sidetrack being if this channel is too "frightening" for people to talk in (because of logging or the more official status, whatever that might mean)
[21:06] <GridCube> i tried to make a rationale of why i would like to change gmb, i think ali is making it again, but there is no interest in hearing about it
[21:06] <knome> GridCube, and how do you come to that conclusion?
[21:07] <GridCube> because there was no other input than mine in my first try, and ali is doing all the work alone again
[21:08] <knome> so to be "interested in hearing", you think that several team members should "help" the person who wants change to do his comparison?
[21:08] <GridCube> again i understand the main counter argument, no one is willing to mantain the packages they don't care about, so who will?
[21:08] <knome> that's not even a counter argument what i'm asking about
[21:09] <GridCube> knome: yes, because they are taking the time to try and help the project be a little bit better, at least some input, some help, something that tells us that we are being listened
[21:10] <knome> GridCube, but don't you think the reason why team members aren't doing it in the first place is the lack of time?
[21:10] <knome> GridCube, it isn't like people were working on it, and when somebody outside the team started working on it, everybody washed their hands from it
[21:11] <Unit193> knome: Fine.  You act like you're saying "patches welcome", but everything else you say seems to be "Well formatted patches that conform to our standards and don't change anything else welcome"
[21:11] <GridCube> sure, absolutelly, and tahts why is correct that the people who thinks that things need to change are the ones who have to do the work, but at least we would like to know that we are going to be listened, that theres some interest from your side to hear about it
[21:12] <knome> Unit193, how do you come to that conclusion?
[21:12] <Unit193> It's an impression.
[21:12] <knome> GridCube, we're definitely interested.
[21:12] <GridCube> doesnt seems like it, sorry
[21:12] <Unit193> GridCube +1
[21:13] <GridCube> im not the first one, nor is ali1234, to point gmb is not a good media player, but theres absolutelly no interest on hearing about it
[21:13] <GridCube> and thats just an example
[21:13] <knome> what should the team do then to make it feel like we're listening, if we leave out "work with them" (since it's a question of lack of time to begin with)
[21:13] <GridCube> i dont know
[21:14] <knome> GridCube, the reason why i've told him that i am not interested in hearing why gmb is not a good media player is because i'd rather hear which application is a good media player
[21:14] <GridCube> that has been done, ali1234 has done it, i have done it
[21:15] <brainwash> 15.04 will be released very soon, so there is plenty of time to discuss if the audio player should be changed in 15.10 or later
[21:15] <brainwash> there is no hurry
[21:15] <knome> GridCube, i appreciated your effort, but maybe you dropped the ball a bit too early
[21:15] <GridCube> maybe
[21:15] <Unit193> Heck, use aqualung for all I care, as long as it isn't gmb.
[21:16] <Unit193> knome: You/ochosi decided with GridCube at the time that perhaps because of his strong dislike for gmb, his bias may cloud things.
[21:16] <knome> tbh, it became gmb-bashing
[21:17] <knome> which is unproductive because that doesn't address how we should fix the issue but what the issue is
[21:17] <GridCube> im not saying im not at fault here, i just felt un-apreciated, i felt that whatever i did was falling on deaf ears so it made no sense for me to try, same with gthumb, we got it in once we had to drop gimp for space reasons, it was good because its a good replacement, next cycles it was deleted because "does the same as gimp and ristretto"
[21:17] <GridCube> sure, whynot get rid of gimp and ristretto and leave gthumb then?
[21:18] <knome> GridCube, because nobody proposed that when the discussion was open, only once we had started voting on the options brought up.
[21:18] <GridCube> i did
[21:18] <knome> right, but i didn't see much support for that
[21:19] <Noskcaj> GridCube, I'd support it if someone writes a menubar patch for gthumb, until then, it's staying unmaintained in debian and unused by us
[21:19] <GridCube> Noskcaj: good point, thats why i keep saying that it makes no sense for me to propose anything because "who will maintain it"
[21:20] <knome> GridCube, but that's not something the team can affect, is it?
[21:20] <GridCube> i can't do it, i dont have the technicall abilities to do so
[21:20] <GridCube> exactly, and thats again why i dropped the case in the first place
[21:20] <Noskcaj> GridCube, Actually, there is now a debian maintainer. So all you need is to ask gnome devs enough times for a patch
[21:20] <knome> it's sad but true that the only way to know how many people actually NEED gimp (or anything else) installed in the default installation is to drop it and hear the feedback
[21:21] <Unit193> I'll admit that while I think gimp can be overkill, it's a nice one to have.
[21:21] <knome> that's one of the reasons we are doing this well before the LTS release so we have time to react to feedback
[21:21] <GridCube> we had already droped it
[21:21] <GridCube> nothing really bad happened at all
[21:21] <knome> GridCube, yep.
[21:22] <knome> GridCube, that's my position, it's probably going to be just fine
[21:22] <knome> even if people argue vocally about it
[21:22] <GridCube> agreed
[21:22] <knome> Unit193, i kind of think the same... then i realize i very rarely even open gimp
[21:22] <Unit193> True.
[21:22] <GridCube> (if we provide alternative to image edition)
[21:23] <knome> so i don't think it's a requirement even for me (if i composed my own default seed), and i happen to work with artwork
[21:23] <knome> GridCube, even without an alternative.
[21:23] <knome> GridCube, i'm not using anything that can be counted as an alternative regularly
[21:23] <Unit193> I tend to use it, when I could have used something like xnview in Windows. :P
[21:24] <knome> a small set of scripts or something would be fine for most
[21:24] <knome> rotate, resize
[21:24] <knome> things like that
[21:25] <GridCube> imagemagic has a sort of gui that does that, but its very ugly
[21:26] <knome> GridCube, i said that in the meeting already, but it could even be a set of thunar custom actions as far as i care
[21:26] <knome> (that did it via imagemagick's CLI commands)
[21:26] <GridCube> mmhm, that could be nice
[21:27] <knome> and light.
[21:28] <mrkramps> you could use extactimage instead which should be smaller than imagemagick
[21:28] <knome> well again, the technical implementation is a side-issue
[21:29] <knome> if somebody is interested enough, they'll work their way this way or the other
[21:29] <knome> and even imagemagick is smaller than gimp...
[21:40] <ochosi> time and time again, it's interesting how much the emotion the default app set conjures
[21:40] <ochosi> whoa, i need to redact that sentence, let me try again...
[21:40] <knome> lol
[21:41] <ochosi> time and time again, it's interesting to see how much emotion the default app set conjures
[21:42] <knome> right
[21:42] <knome> but it's also sad to see that it generates frustration, because "the team isn't listening"
[21:43] <ochosi> yeah, oh well. people complain about various things all the time
[21:43] <ochosi> i'm not happy about people being frustrated, then again i really feel that i try to listen
[21:43] <knome> sure, but i wonder if there is anything that the team could help to fight that frustration
[21:43] <knome> or even some team members.
[21:44] <ochosi> then again, i'm frustrated about people expecting *me* to do the things they're interested in or want changed
[21:44] <knome> i mean, even some team members being frustrated
[21:44] <knome> or things that simple aren't up high enough on the priority, so they are being postponed
[21:45] <ochosi> is this still (and foremostly) about gmusicbrowser?
[21:45] <knome> i believe that it is
[21:45] <knome> and that's also a sad part
[21:45] <knome> because the default media player choice/change shouldn't be about gmb, it should be about the other players..
[21:47] <ochosi> so what's the status on the comparison that ali started?
[21:47] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/W/DefaultMediaPlayer
[21:47] <Unit193> Considering it's not just me (as a team member) annoyed?  Yeah.
[21:48] <knome> Unit193, i didn't get that
[21:49] <mrkramps> eh, audacious can do "jump to song"
[21:49] <ochosi> yeah, i dont think the table is completely correct. also, that's only a starting point
[21:50] <knome> mmazing, to be fair, gmb can do several of the tasks mentioned in the table that it's marked as "can't do"
[21:50] <knome> mrkramps, ^
[21:50] <ochosi> Unit193: so what about dropping gmusicbrowser without replacement?
[21:50] <knome> i guess the outcome depends on the subjectively relative findability of those features
[21:50] <mmazing> i was gonna say haha, geez, i just join and people are already angry with me
[21:51] <Unit193> Just, hidden, in the closet behind the old table.
[21:51] <knome> mmazing, not angry at all, just commenting. and sorry for the accidental highlight
[21:51] <Unit193> ochosi: At this point, that'd be great.  Parole has a basic media library no?
[21:51] <mmazing> knome: i know :) just kidding around
[21:51] <Unit193> ochosi: But, I'm fine with recommending gmb, or something.
[21:51] <ochosi> Unit193: nope, no library. but playback and playlists/streams etc
[21:52] <knome> ochosi, Unit193: some people argue that there is no way we couldn't do without a "real" media player
[21:52] <knome> err, "could do"...
[21:52] <ochosi> they might say the same thing about office suits
[21:52] <knome> yes.
[21:52] <elfy> oh my 
[21:52] <ochosi> and given that we don't have the final result of the vote, it could happen
[21:52] <knome> elfy, welcome...
[21:52] <ochosi> i mean seriously you guys, how bad can it be?
[21:52] <Unit193> Hah. :D
[21:52] <Unit193> !info webservice-office-zoho
[21:52] <knome> ochosi, i'm fine with dropping gmb too with no replacement.
[21:53] <knome> as i've said before, it seems like the only "not wrong" option
[21:53] <Unit193> But, we're not trying to create xubuntu-core with xubuntu-desktop, fwiw.
[21:53] <ochosi> blog XY will go "they destroyed xubuntu!!!" or "they mistreat their users" (mistakingly thinking that we're service providers to customers), but that'll be about it
[21:53] <knome> Unit193, no, there is still FF/TB at least...
[21:53] <ochosi> Unit193: yeah, i agree
[21:54] <ochosi> haha, the XUL crap. how i wouldn't mind to get rid of those two ;)
[21:54] <mmazing> what is gmb again? not having luck on google :\
[21:54] <ochosi> mmazing: shorthand for gmusicbrowser
[21:54] <knome> ochosi, and replaced with what? the big brother goo-gel stuff?
[21:54] <ochosi> knome: midori?
[21:55] <knome> midori's web browsing abilities are relatively bad.
[21:55] <Unit193> xombrero is even better.
[21:55] <knome> granted, i haven't followed its development very closely lately, but it's not really what people excpect from a browser
[21:55] <brainwash> replace it with firefox-gtk3 in the future
[21:56] <GridCube> vivaldi 
[21:56] <GridCube> i mean we trowing names around
[21:56] <ochosi> yeah, let's not go into this further. my point is: i *am* open to changing our default app set and i've repeatedly said i don't mind replacing or dropping gmusicbrowser, so i'd really love it if we could take a step back and take a breath
[21:56] <mmazing> i, for one, don't like seeing stuff like rhythmbox/etc installed by default (and gmb isn't installed on my version of xubuntu 14.04, anyway), it seems like the sort of thing that people will decide which one they like and install it on their own
[21:57] <ochosi> mmazing: they do that with pretty much everything anyway
[21:57] <Unit193> brainwash: Had problems building. :D
[21:57] <mmazing> ochosi: agreed
[21:57] <Unit193> knome: And, version in Debian is so very old.
[21:57] <brainwash> Unit193: it will work at some point
[21:57] <Unit193> ochosi: Well yes and no.  If you want barebones, install that.
[21:58] <ochosi> mmazing: which is why i said that these discussions usually get blown out of proportion and overly emotional (for my taste)
[21:58] <knome> Unit193, at least we can affect that though..
[21:58] <mmazing> ochosi: also agreed :)
[21:59] <Unit193> ochosi: Right, but is the default is hardly usable but yet you still can't get rid of it? :P
[21:59] <ochosi> Unit193: again with the flaming?
[21:59] <Unit193> ochosi: Just trying to say, there's another side of it.
[22:00] <knome> yes, i would so much rather here what is *so much better* with the new app somebody is proposing than what is wrong with the current one
[22:00] <ochosi> s/here/hear/
[22:00] <GridCube> thats the other thing, the culture of "its just an apt-get away", i agree to that, but i think we need to teach people to use apt-get/usc, we should have a simple "welcome to xubuntu" thing that has a few pages teaching people how to get any software they want
[22:01] <Unit193> knome: Sure, but the one I have installed isn't an option as it isn't in the repos. :P
[22:01] <ochosi> then package it
[22:01] <elfy> not sayiing anything
[22:01] <ochosi> do something about it, other than whining
[22:02] <elfy> so 
[22:02] <Unit193> ochosi: Already did.  You think I installed into /usr/local/? :D
[22:03] <ochosi> hehe, well who knows :)
[22:03] <knome> ochosi, thank you mr. grammar police
[22:03] <ochosi> knome: yw
[22:03] <Unit193> So, therefor I did do something about it.
[22:03] <ochosi> Unit193: well package it for others then
[22:03] <ochosi> if you think it's a viable candidate
[22:03] <knome> GridCube, we are welcoming contributions for documentation too
[22:03] <mrkramps> or at least tell us which one it is -.-
[22:04] <Unit193> ochosi: I did, it's in their daily ppa.  I don't think it's fit for Ubuntu repos because of bundled libs, and another xul.
[22:04] <ochosi> Unit193: and really, please stop this "gmb is not usable" nonsense. i'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with you here...
[22:04] <ochosi> oh no, not another xul
[22:04] <knome> ochosi, in your opinion
[22:04] <Unit193> ochosi: Ah, well that's what I've read from others.  I"ve not used it long enough to find out if it's "utterly unusable" as they say.
[22:05] <knome> ochosi, got to make that disclaimer so people won't think it's an official statement for the project.
[22:05] <Unit193> Eh, "not another xul" is somewhat valid.
[22:05]  * Unit193 sighs.
[22:05] <knome> Unit193, so you are passing on flaming comments from others without checking if they are at least somewhat true? nice :)
[22:06] <Unit193> knome: It's called paraphrasing...
[22:06] <knome> Unit193, or FUD.
[22:06] <Unit193> Perhaps, yes.  Either way.  Quotes likely would have helped you.
[22:07] <knome> but ultimately, i don't see how mocking GMB actually gets anything done.
[22:07] <elfy> might be useful if people wandered off and did something else here
[22:08] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, good idea :)
[22:08] <knome> or maybe the strategy is to mock it until the XPL bursts into tears, cracks, and promises to install every media player
[22:08]  * ochosi wanders off to do something else
[22:09] <knome> and it might be useful to actually finish off the discussions, instead of stopping them when everybody has a bad taste in their mouth and thus making all of the future discussions about the same topic reprises of the previous one
[22:10] <elfy> it's not a discussion, it's a bunch of bad mouthing at each other
[22:12] <knome> maybe it should be ended before it turns into that
[22:13] <elfy> I'm not going to get involved in media player discussions, my point was made a long time ago and hasn't changed, so you all carry on 
[22:14] <Unit193> Nooope, as I've said, I'm done too now.
[22:16] <GridCube> knome: im not talking about documentation though, im talking about something more visible, for example a simple slideshow html5 file linked from the desktop that says "welcome to xubuntu"  and has like 10 pages just telling you how to get to documetation, how to install programs in a visual and simple way, some alternatives to
[22:16] <GridCube> media/ofimatic/webbrowsing/ims/graphics, and thats it, with links to install frm usc or not i dont know, i think that would take most of this "what default application" discussions out of order
[22:16] <knome> Unit193, i'm sorry if i offended by anything; that's obviously not the goal. furthermore, as i see it, there are many things we agree about even within this discussion, and i'm sorry for not always being able to see, or express that clearly enogh
[22:17] <knome> GridCube, that's part of the documentation
[22:17] <GridCube> ok
[22:17] <knome> GridCube, http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/managing-applications.html#ubuntu-software-center
[22:18] <knome> GridCube, i understand that's not exactly what you are describing, but is there something else than screenshots that could be improved there?
[22:18] <knome> GridCube, the whole chapter really (http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/managing-applications.html)
[22:18] <knome> GridCube, and of course, trying to make the documentation more visible...
[22:20] <elfy> GridCube: one of the *buntu derivatives do something similar I think, 
[22:20] <elfy> or could be something else entirely, while since I've seen it, but shows when you boot first time
[22:20] <knome> one of the actionable items would be to add a shortcut to the documentation on the desktop
[22:20] <elfy> with a 'Don't show this again' checkbox
[22:21] <knome> elfy, why so shady about the derivative :P
[22:21] <elfy> because I'm really not sure which it was 
[22:21] <knome> good rationale.
[22:21] <elfy> if I thought it was Mint I'd have said so :)
[22:21] <GridCube> knome: my opinion is, thats just a wall of text that 94.325% of the people will not bother to read. Im talking about something shiny, simple and squared, something a newbie can just waste 40 seconds on see all and learn the basics
[22:22] <GridCube> and then they can delete the file from their desktop
[22:22] <elfy> I assume you are meaning something *like* the install slideshow, that plays on first boot? 
[22:23] <knome> GridCube, please, don't understand this as a snarky comment as it really isn't; it's the most serious tone i have: do you think that the whole documentation is more or less not useful, since it doesn't have a very simple approach to the topics?
[22:23] <GridCube> elfy: yes
[22:23] <knome> the other actionable item could be to add a slide about USC (back) to the installer slideshow then
[22:24] <GridCube> knome: no, i just understand how documentaion usually works in any project around the whole planet, not here, our documentation is excellent, users dont like to read them
[22:24] <elfy> knome: I think that GridCube is talking about more detail than the slideshow itself gives
[22:25] <knome> elfy, maybe, but he also wanted a shiny thing that's very short and easily accessible, which i think is equal to the slideshow
[22:25] <GridCube> im just talking about a guide that welcomes new users and gives fancy and graphical indications of how to do basics
[22:25] <knome> GridCube, so do i interpret you right that you'd want to see more screenshots on the documentation?
[22:25] <elfy> ^^
[22:26] <knome> GridCube, or is it something else than that
[22:26] <GridCube> knome: no, documentaion is documentation
[22:26] <GridCube> its not the same
[22:26] <knome> ok...
[22:26] <knome> so in addition to the documentation that goes through the basic stuff, we should have some other documentation that goes through basic stuff?
[22:26] <knome> i'm confused...
[22:26] <elfy> no
[22:26] <elfy> not docs
[22:27] <elfy> *like* slideshow sort of thing
[22:27] <GridCube> you can point to documentation from the slideshow
[22:27] <mrkramps> pictures/animation to explain the first steps right after first boot of installed system
[22:27] <elfy> but more about how to use USC
[22:27] <mrkramps> something like "take the tour"
[22:27] <knome> elfy, (still no snarky sound, still serious) but isn't it basically documentation if we tell the people the same things we tell them on the documentation?
[22:27] <knome> GridCube, we do
[22:27] <GridCube> "read more about media players here" [link to docs]
[22:27] <elfy> mrkramps: that's my understanding
[22:27] <knome> what would the tour consist of?
[22:28] <knome> could it be another chapter in the documentation that was more "graphical"/had more screenshots?
[22:28] <elfy> knome: yes ofc - but different people access information in different ways, I'm happy to read a 600 page book on ecology 
[22:28] <knome> i'm failing to see why another piece of technical platform is needed here...
[22:28] <elfy> would hate to read a 600 page book on gmb ;)
[22:28] <knome> we can turn the documentation into marvelous things
[22:28] <mrkramps> knome, absolutely nobody who really should is reading a manual
[22:29] <knome> mrkramps, but that's hardly our fault... :)
[22:29] <elfy> knome: it's not so much technical - but a halfway, enough to get you going platform
[22:29] <elfy> GridCube: ^^ is that what you mean? 
[22:29] <GridCube> yes
[22:29] <knome> i wasn't talking about the content though
[22:29] <elfy> I understand where you are then :)
[22:29] <knome> i was talking about the platform where it is build on
[22:29] <knome> i understand what GridCube is saying too
[22:30] <knome> but i don't understand why it couldn't be either 1) on the slideshow 2) on the documentation
[22:30] <elfy> then the platform is slideshowy 
[22:30] <knome> -y?
[22:30] <GridCube> i understand knome point, we could have just one slideshow for each chapter of the documentation, that links to the full text
[22:30] <elfy> and then it's too long
[22:30] <knome> GridCube, i would guess that nobody would follow the slideshow if it was like that though
[22:31] <knome> GridCube, i wouldn't..
[22:31] <elfy> when people were installing from cd to hdd 
[22:31] <knome> (i'll happily read a manual though)
[22:31] <GridCube> not many people would
[22:31] <elfy> now I'm lucky to see the slideshow for 5 minutes 
[22:31] <GridCube> and im talking as a librarian
[22:32] <knome> GridCube, sure, i just wanted to point that out to say that even if i think (well-written) manuals are okay, i wouldn't enjoy a slideshow with an introduction of all the manual chapters
[22:32] <knome> i'd just rather want to dig deep in the manual right away
[22:32] <knome> brb
[22:32] <GridCube> yeah well was just a random though
[22:34] <GridCube> i think that 10 pages slideshow is enough, like "welcome|handling files|internet|messaging|music/video|offimatic|games|advanced stuff|read more in docs"
[22:34] <knome> GridCube, we have a lot more slides to cover in the slideshow too
[22:34] <mrkramps> GridCube, you forgot "installing software"
[22:34] <knome> GridCube, we've come to the conclusion that 7-8 is the right amount
[22:34] <elfy> knome: I really think the install slideshow is the wrong place
[22:34] <elfy> for what GridCube is talking about
[22:35] <knome> elfy, you are likely right, but then, we already do have a link to the documentation from the slideshow
[22:35] <knome> which is why i asked my original question:
[22:35] <elfy> yes 
[22:35] <GridCube> mrkramps: no, in each of those you say "if you want more options to ... you can get them in the usc"
[22:35] <knome> how can we improve the docs so that it's more accessible for a new user
[22:35] <knome> or what kind of tour could the documentation have
[22:35] <elfy> that just goes back to the some like docs, some don't :D
[22:36] <elfy> ha ha 
[22:36] <knome> elfy, but if you don't like docs, and don't read them, you also can't whine that we didn't tell you how to install your $favorite_music_player
[22:36] <knome> :)
[22:36] <elfy> right, so docs tour - great, expand in the slide about the thing your linking to in a bit more detail
[22:36] <GridCube> knome: the slideshow just happens on installing
[22:36] <GridCube> the current one
[22:37] <elfy> it doesn't have to be Xpx by Xpx
[22:37] <GridCube> and only if you reach the installing point
[22:37] <mrkramps> maybe just upload a tour at YT?
[22:37] <GridCube> you cant just launch the slideshow to see it 
[22:37] <elfy> make it larger, expand the detail - link to docs
[22:37] <knome> elfy, sounds like a good idea to me
[22:38] <GridCube> again i think somthing like an html5 page, not even a proper program
[22:38] <elfy> half way house between the basics and the docs
[22:38] <knome> elfy, and the tour in the docs is always accessible after installation too (GridCube ^)
[22:38] <knome> GridCube, like our docs :)
[22:38] <GridCube> should do it, and most anyone could maintain it
[22:38] <GridCube> knome: is it?
[22:38] <knome> GridCube, well it's written in docbook, but it's shipped as html
[22:39] <knome> but we're maintaining that already, so adding more to it isn't a problem
[22:39] <elfy> GridCube: and do you have the knowledge to do some of this? 
[22:39] <knome> setting up another platform, for one, would mean more maintaining burden
[22:39] <knome> which is why i'm against that
[22:39] <elfy> because if so I could try and help too 
[22:40] <GridCube> im am not a webdeveloper but i checked online and theres plenty of opensource slideshows available on github and what not that could be used
[22:40] <elfy> knome: but once set up? a change in UCS in docs - how to make sure change to *new thing* happens
[22:40] <GridCube> i dont think it would be so hard to start from there and create our own
[22:40] <knome> elfy, the same as everything in the docs - we make sure it's up-to-date
[22:40] <GridCube> i could try it
[22:40] <elfy> GridCube: neither am I - but trying has to be worth it - and I could try with you 
[22:41] <knome> GridCube, the question is not only to set up the "slideshow", it's about setting the packaging and a lot more to be installed with xubuntu
[22:41] <GridCube> yes
[22:41] <elfy> knome: ack, so just about management
[22:41] <GridCube> i understand
[22:42] <knome> elfy, yes, contrary to another platform, which would also need a setup (and duplicated the package/upload -like management)
[22:42] <elfy> right
[22:43] <GridCube> so it makes no sense to try to do something because we wont have any help to get it done, got it
[22:43] <knome> GridCube, you're understanding it wrong, really.
[22:43] <knome> i'm strong +1 for adding new content and making it look different
[22:44] <knome> but i'm strong -1 for adding complexity via additional platforms
[22:44] <elfy> GridCube: I'm sure that we'd get help when we've got a working model, why not work on that first 
[22:44] <GridCube> well i dont understand your plataform so i cant help
[22:44] <GridCube> elfy: sure
[22:44] <knome> GridCube, we can help you convert your content into docbook
[22:45] <elfy> knome: is docbook how slideshow is written?
[22:45] <knome> elfy, no, the slideshow again is pure html
[22:45] <GridCube> i dont understand then
[22:45] <knome> GridCube, what don't you understand?
[22:46] <GridCube> how do you get a slideshow if thats not how you do an slideshow
[22:46] <elfy> knome: GridCube is envisaging a slideshow for this stuff - eg html
[22:46] <elfy> I think 
[22:46] <knome> i don't understand why it needs to be a slideshow
[22:46] <GridCube> im not talking about adding screenshots to documentation
[22:47] <knome> but fair enough, let's discuss that direction
[22:47] <GridCube> because its visual, its fast and its simple
[22:47] <elfy> GridCube: neither am I at this point
[22:47] <knome> if it can't be inside the documentation, then you'll need another package
[22:47] <GridCube> yes, thats the point
[22:47] <elfy> so we'll need another package 
[22:47] <knome> and somebody to set that up
[22:48] <mrkramps> and i have to purge it
[22:48] <GridCube> and no one will
[22:48] <elfy> or help others learn how to 
[22:48] <knome> as well as all the things related to that (which i don't understand)
[22:48] <GridCube> ?
[22:48] <elfy> GridCube: how about we focus on what we CAN do now, and worry about tomorrow then
[22:48] <elfy> I couldn't wire a jumbo jet up till I learnt how
[22:49] <elfy> my plan is to make Unit193 go grey before me :p
[22:49] <GridCube> its just really tiring elfy 
[22:49] <knome> another thing that somewhat worries me is that you want another way to tell people how to install packages while the documentation already does that
[22:50] <GridCube> and?
[22:50] <Unit193> elfy: Already had some random whites.
[22:50] <GridCube> redundancy is good in this case
[22:50] <elfy> GridCube: yea I know what you mean, but if people like you and I don't do the things that we think others might like, who else will 
[22:51] <knome> GridCube, redundancy means more things to maintain, eg. more time to be used to maintain the stuff, not create new
[22:51] <elfy> unless it's adding something 
[22:51] <GridCube> yes
[22:52] <knome> sure.
[22:52] <elfy> that is for people who don't want to read loads of things if the basics are graspable with a shove in the right direction
[22:52] <GridCube> i have to repeat then: so it makes no sense to try to do something because we wont have any help to get it done, got it
[22:52] <elfy> at that point it IS worth it 
[22:52] <knome> elfy, which is why i'm asking - could a more graphical chapter in the documentation do the same thing?
[22:52] <GridCube> no
[22:52] <GridCube> because people dont go to docuemtation in the first place
[22:52] <elfy> I don't think it's even close knome 
[22:53] <elfy> GridCube: and that's not why I think that 
[22:53] <knome> GridCube, then let me ask my second question again... how do we make people go to the documentation?
[22:53] <elfy> they are 2 different ways of promulgating the information imo
[22:54] <GridCube> knome: we change the reality of the world,or we add a slideshow that points people to it
[22:55] <GridCube> the information we would want in the slideshow is already on the documentation, we would just make it visible and spark the suer interest on it, so they can go and keep reading if they feel the need
[22:56] <elfy> GridCube: that ^^
[22:57] <elfy> perhaps the way to approach this is for GridCube and me to go and make a working *slideshow* then go from there
[22:57] <elfy> we have 2 cycles
[22:59] <knome> what's the plan B if it's not possible to include it in the next LTS because of some limitation, be it lack of time or technical problems?
[23:00] <GridCube> if its an html slideshow it could go on the website and have a link from whiskers to it?
[23:00] <knome> and before you go too deep in anything, have a quick chat with slickymaster and the technical people on the channel to discuss what they think of this, how they would like it to be executed, and if it's technically doable within some timeframe
[23:00] <elfy> Plan B would be to make sure that -team thinks it is a good long term thing for Xubuntu to have and it comes when it comes
[23:01] <knome> then let's make sure that is involved with plan A....
[23:01] <knome> but i was talking about a technical plan B :)
[23:02] <knome> GridCube, potentially, though it would likely need some changes on the website code
[23:02] <elfy> knome: who knows, at the moment it's an idea, a useful one imo and I'm happy to put time to it 
[23:03] <knome> as i said, you should talk with david
[23:03] <elfy> yep 
[23:03] <elfy> I can 
[23:04] <knome> another thing to consider is how it would overlap with the slideshow, and the tour on the website
[23:04] <knome> (which is currently another kind of tour....)
[23:05] <GridCube> i think it being hosted on the website should be a secondary option, i would like for people to have it witouth internet access
[23:05] <GridCube> like docs
[23:08] <elfy> then it has to be on the install
[23:08] <elfy> GridCube: I really think that the best way forward is for us to get a working idea together
[23:08] <elfy> then we can put it to -team as a proposal
[23:09] <elfy> then we find what needs to be done and dealt with
[23:09] <elfy> otherwise we get into a protracted session of working out when and where we do things, without actually doing anything
[23:10] <elfy> until other people have something in front of them it is just words and ideas :)
[23:10] <GridCube> right
[23:10] <GridCube> agreed
[23:11] <elfy> GridCube: ok - cool
[23:12] <elfy> please remember though that release is in 2 weeks or so, and I'm going to be all :( for a bit
[23:12] <knome> elfy, just ":(" ?
[23:12] <elfy> was being positive :)
[23:12] <knome> :)
[23:13] <elfy> GridCube: how about you think about the order of what we look at, and how we can communicate together on it - maybe trello or ... 
[23:13] <knome> elfy, a leading question!! :P
[23:14] <elfy> heh 
[23:14] <GridCube> i never understood how trello works
[23:14] <GridCube> but im willing to try it again
[23:14] <elfy> it's just a whiteboard you can scribble on, move things about 
[23:15] <elfy> it's as complicated as you make it 
[23:15] <elfy> GridCube: we can do the communicating anyway you want, makes no difference to me
[23:15] <elfy> just not IRC - timezones ... 
[23:16] <GridCube> mails sound razonable to me
[23:16] <elfy> GridCube: it's YOUR project, I'm just giving you my time and thoughts ;)
[23:16] <elfy> ok - wfm
[23:16] <GridCube> :)
[23:17] <elfy> one thing though
[23:17] <GridCube> perfect
[23:17] <GridCube> say
[23:17] <elfy> can we work out first how many *pages* give them names
[23:17] <elfy> then only talk about *foo* on the foo mail - I thread them here 
[23:18] <GridCube> mmhm, or maybe one of those ubuntu pads we can edit each other so if someone else wants to join or see they have it available
[23:19] <elfy> possible
[23:19] <GridCube> i can create one of those right now
[23:19] <elfy> but again we need to have pad per *page*
[23:19] <GridCube> maybe a main one and then them separated
[23:20] <knome> or one pad with separators
[23:20] <elfy> there can be a general one to index others and to get the general direction sorted
[23:20] <knome> (just an idea, it would be much more accessible, considering the pages are short)
[23:20] <GridCube> mmhm i like knome's idea
[23:20] <knome> also easier to follow the big picture
[23:21] <GridCube> we start with one and see if we need more as time comes
[23:21] <elfy> ok - well never done that nor set it up 
[23:27] <GridCube> http://pad.ubuntu.com/1Ki6doF41F
[23:28] <knome> btw, for the future,
[23:28] <knome> you can have a named pad
[23:28] <knome> just go to http://pad.ubuntu.com/any-name and it'll ask to create any-name for you
[23:28] <GridCube> ah
[23:28] <GridCube> welp, too late now
[23:29] <knome> well you can just create a new one
[23:29] <knome> and dismiss that :P
[23:29] <knome> if you want, that is
[23:29] <elfy> GridCube: copy paste for the win :)
[23:30] <elfy> knome: what do you mean by pad seperators? 
[23:31] <elfy> GridCube: slow down a moment
[23:31] <knome> elfy, add a few blank lines, then drop a line of --------------------------'s
[23:31] <knome> elfy, you can even make that bold and uncolor it so it pops out more
[23:32] <knome> or make them –––––'s and bold
[23:32] <knome> so they'll look like a unified line..
[23:32] <elfy> GridCube: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-install-slides
[23:32] <elfy> knome: oh right
[23:32] <elfy> I thought there was a way to have multiple pads linked ... 
[23:32] <knome> oh, nope
[23:33] <knome> at least not how we're doing it
[23:33] <knome> but that's another topic...
[23:33] <elfy> :)
[23:34] <elfy> GridCube: I would make that page a general discussion, you can go to http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-install-slides_1
[23:35] <elfy> and make that just discussion on slide 1 
[23:35] <elfy> it will get very confusing otherwise
[23:35] <GridCube> sure i just wanted to have an overview in the first place
[23:36] <elfy> yep