OvenWerkszequence: Installed xubuntu-core for a look see. Just installing our Audio meta and menu stub.07:53
OvenWerksIt looks like it could be a good starting place, but we may want to add a "utilities" meta for tools we keep that are not part of any of the work flows. parted, gedit, taskmanager, synaptic, whatever.07:56
zequenceI'm thinking either that, or lubuntu-core could be a nice foundation for a formal Ubuntu Studio DE setup14:18
OvenWerkszequence: lubuntu-core would be harder to work with. In my tests of dropping our metas on top of different DEs lxde was more work to get working.14:47
OvenWerksxfce also has a more "modern" look and feel.14:48
OvenWerkszequence: lxde will be getting changed to qt libs (in progress) so the time to use that would be after all that work is done.14:50
OvenWerkszequence: Also, I think xfce is still the closest thing to gnome 2.15:00
OvenWerkslxde feels to me like half way between fvwm and gnome2.15:04
zequencegnome2 for me is not relevant. Just that it works. What is hard to get working? The menu?15:08
OvenWerksThe menu is not really any harder to make work.15:09
OvenWerksA new app takes longer to show up on the menu at all because the menu is(or was) updated by a separate app that dooes nt run all the time15:10
OvenWerksThere is a smothness to xfce that is not there in lxde.15:11
OvenWerksgnome2 like is not an issue no, it is the smoothness of use I was talking about.15:11
OvenWerkslxde has a focus on being small, and for that something(s) have to be given up.15:12
OvenWerkslxde shines in less than 1Gram systems, but in our case our apps generally demand more than that anyway.15:13
OvenWerksThe de in our case is not a big part of what is in memory or on disk.15:14
OvenWerkszequence: so unless a new DE is easier to work with for the user, I would not go that way.15:16
zequenceOvenWerks: If we offer all the other DEs, much of your arguments are already covered15:26
zequenceAnd could be there is no need for a default DE at all15:26
astraljavazequence: What's the general consensus about how we would be "offering" the DEs? Are we talking about the -desktop packages?15:39
OvenWerksastraljava: in most cases a desktop package is not needed/wanted15:41
OvenWerksTake the case where the user already has their desktop the way they want it, we don't want to/ mess with it15:42
OvenWerksOnce the user has logged in once after install and then adds Studio to the mix... their desktop is already set and any default changes we would make would have no effect anyway.15:43
astraljavaOvenWerks: Oh ok, so we're talking about a reverse process here. Thanks, got it. :)15:44
OvenWerkszequence: yes, Te user can choose which they like. For our main ISO (if we had one) it needs to be polished/up to date looking, but at the same time not get in the users way.15:46
OvenWerksThat is function well on systems a little older (3 to 5 years not worrying about 10 years)15:47
OvenWerksastraljava: There are two scenerios, 1) Studio is part of the DEs install and 2) instaling Studio after wards.15:48
OvenWerksastraljava: Installing Studio afterwards is likely to be done first because it is a lot less work. (mostly there now)15:49
OvenWerksIn general, DEs are changing away from being menu based, or at least what menu is left is less capable.15:51
zequenceOvenWerks: What do you mean by 1)? Which DE?15:53
OvenWerksxfce and KDE still have a good "classic" menu available if the user wants it, but Unity and gnome session (or is it screen) tht is not the case.15:53
OvenWerkszequence: I mean making the DE a choice at install time15:53
zequenceYou can add a classic meny to Gnome pretty easily, if you want it though15:53
OvenWerksYes but the classic menu on gnome does not handle multilevel menus like ours15:54
OvenWerks(last I looked)15:54
zequenceI'm thinking we ship one DE on our ISO, but adjust our installer so that the user can choose to install other DEs over the internet, replacing our default choice15:54
OvenWerksYes, that was what I thought when I described 1 above15:55
OvenWerksIn that we are on the same/ page :)15:56
OvenWerksBut having a classic menu option is not really the issue, the main thing is that people are moving away from the menu thing and I think Studio needs to rethink how we present our big chunk of applications in a menuless world.15:58
OvenWerksIt seems having a freedesktop menu splice does not reall work well in the DE world. The xdg standarrds are not well supported/broken/not going to be fixed.16:00
* OvenWerks has filed bug reports for all the broken ones and seen them all shoved aside.16:01
zequenceThat is why I was working on the categories thing about a year ago16:02
OvenWerkszequence: my latest thought is back to the workflow applet16:03
OvenWerkszequence: I agree.16:03
zequenceOne should be able to easily find applications by using simple search terms16:04
OvenWerksa workflow applet that sits in systray would work the same in all DEs16:04
OvenWerksFinding an app is one thing, knowing what you have is another16:05
zequenceIT's not hard to do that either on any DE16:05
zequenceOn Unity it is quite simple to filter all of your applications by using categories16:05
OvenWerksAlmost all DEs now have an app search yes.16:06
zequenceGnome has simplified by just showing all applications16:06
OvenWerksSounds adroidish16:06
zequenceIn this respect Gnome is harder16:06
zequenceI'm thinking it is better to show what tools to use for which use by documentation and videos, rather then using DE tools16:07
zequenceAll though, I'm quite fond of the idea of a workflow app too16:08
zequenceI'm actually working on -controls right now16:09
zequenceSeems I always do when sitting in a train16:09
OvenWerksA workflow app is something for the new user mostly... though I would tend to use it as a menu if the DE didn't have one ;)16:09
zequenceI could imagine using a workflow application myself, if it was smart enough16:10
OvenWerkswould you see that as part of a controls app or separate.16:10
zequenceSeparate. Controls is just for the core functions16:11
OvenWerksI personally would see it as two systray apps16:11
OvenWerksBut then I would see controls as two parts: operational and setup16:11
zequenceIf it's just for replacing a menu, then it's in my view a menu, be it in the systray or elsewhere16:11
OvenWerksMaking it smarter than just a menu would be nice, but I can't think how right now.16:12
zequence-controls has a menu for controlling jack and pulse, plus shortcuts for opening other things, like mixers and also "settings"16:12
zequenceThe settings application will have a separate starter, but you'll be able to open it from the controls systray menu16:13
zequenceMy first version will just be a simple settings application. No systray menu16:13
OvenWerksOk that sounds good.16:13
zequenceRight now I've been trying to figure out a good way for analyzing PAM settings16:14
zequenceThe idea is the settings application will be able to remove duplicate bad settings from any relevant file16:15
OvenWerkssettings has to be there for adding Studio metas to already installed DEs16:15
zequenceI'm thinking we could add a shortcut for the meta installer in the menu16:18
zequenceI'm going to be using a new group for rt settings. audio is not to be used in the future, so I'll use something like jackuser instead16:18
OvenWerkszequence: I would like to see jackd run from login as default sound device. have pulse feed jack by default. I have been doing this on bth my Studio machine and my wifes desktop for over a year now16:19
zequenceWe could add that to the audio-core meta16:19
OvenWerksIt works well16:19
OvenWerksPulse can be turned "off" by unloading the pa-jack bridge. latency can be changed on the fly so at login latency can be long and shortened for lowatency work. I set things up so that pa turns off below certain latencies.16:22
OvenWerksWith using the bridge removal technique, pa switches to dummy sink and all of the desktop apps can still work without hanging, but no sounds of course :)16:23
holsteini have a general question about that.. what about a user with a USB audio device?16:23
holsteinwould it address the labeling? etc? would it "just work" for them?16:24
OvenWerksMy wife uses a USB device, no problem16:24
holsteini think removing jack from the equation is a good move16:24
OvenWerksThe only place it may be a problem is plugging and unplugging16:24
holsteinhaving it already running is a nice way to do that.. if it makes it easier..16:24
holsteinOvenWerks: oh.. that makes sense..16:25
OvenWerksIn my opinion a USB audio iF should be plugged in from before boot.16:25
zequenceTo get plug and play, someone will need to create a server for restarting jack16:25
OvenWerksjack does not need to be restarted16:26
zequenceTo change IF16:26
holsteinOvenWerks: i like that as well, its just that, its not the "norm" for users coming from other platforms.. not that that need to be a consideration.. its just largely why folks dont adopt16:26
OvenWerksThat can be done with jack_control16:26
holsteinthey have something that worked a certain way, and they want the *exact* same work flow, for no $$.. there may be little to do to address that, anyway16:27
OvenWerksjack_control can change IF without stopping16:27
holsteinjack running from boot is personally something im not interested in, but, if i were just coming to the platform, i would appreciate it, and i think its a great idea16:27
zequencejackdbus does not stop, but it won't change IF automatically16:28
OvenWerksholstein: not from boot, from login16:28
zequenceAlso, will it crash?16:28
holsteinwell, boot, login.. you know what i mean16:28
holsteinfor an ubuntustudio user, they likely dont boot without logging in..16:28
OvenWerksI have changed lots of things with out first stopping jackdbus.16:28
zequenceUSB devices are meant to be plug and play, so you can't really blame someone for using them as such16:29
holsteinyeah.. its implied about USB hardware that you can remove them16:29
OvenWerksYes, that is true. USB will get plugged in and out.16:29
OvenWerkssame with FW16:29
holsteinbut, even if we put that in some documentation, it wouldnt necessarily be noticed, or understood..16:29
OvenWerksI have switched from alsa to net with no problem though16:30
holsteincould be a detraction.. "dont plug and play your plug and play device".. could be seen as a shortcoming16:30
OvenWerksinternally, I think jackdbus does do a restart.16:30
OvenWerksPNP can still be done so long as the control app will scan for new devices. We should see how pa does that16:32
OvenWerksholstein: I agree PnP still has to work, I just haven't taken the time/effort to make it so in my case.16:37
holsteineh.. i dont know that its something that needs to be considered specifically16:37
holsteini dont think it should hold up your work, for sure16:37
OvenWerksjack_control is not well documented, there is no man page and jack_control --help/-h do not work16:38
zequencewould be nice if jack behaved like PA16:38
zequenceBut, there is a slight problem with connections16:38
zequenceGoing from 8ch to 2ch16:38
OvenWerksAs I said, I think when changing back end, jack is restarted internally and so all connections are reset.16:39
OvenWerksI think also we need to have some sort of kill for it in case it hangs.16:41
OvenWerksdetecting a running jackd and being able to kill that also makes sense. (in my case I have chmod -x jackd)16:42
OvenWerksI have had to actually kill jackdbus only a few times in the year and a half I have used things this way.16:46
* OvenWerks thinks all of them have been with the USB device16:47
OvenWerkszequence: holstein I would like to disable the pulse alsa module so that pulse just acts as a desktop front end for jack.16:54
holsteinOvenWerks: sounds like a plan..16:55
zequenceOvenWerks: Doing that permanently would be bad, I think17:48
zequenceWe need a dbus server of our own, or something else, that can disable/enable start/kill/stop stuff in the way you would want to17:49
zequenceMight actually be best to add all of that into a PA module17:49
zequencePerhaps the one that already exists. Adding config options for it17:49
OvenWerkszequence: Sounds like a plan. I hadn't thought of that, but KDE does that already so it is possible and yes the better way to go.18:05
OvenWerksBTW I posted a quick overview of jack_control in the mail list.18:05
OvenWerkszequence: for that matter we could incorperate the internals of jack_control into our own app as well. jack_control is a script I think anyway.18:07
zequenceIt's a python script for controlling jack through dbus18:08
zequenceI've been using it as an example for a few things18:08
OvenWerkszequence: I had forgotten there is a pactl (I think... something close) that does for PA what jack_control does for jackdbus. I do not know if it is a script as well or not. But it does seem to control just about everything as well.19:10
zequenceNot a script, and doesn't use dbus. But is similar, I suppose21:23
OvenWerkszequence: pactl is the one I use to un/load module-jackdbus-detect. Almost everything PA does is as part of a module, so removing a module stops that functionality as well. The problem is there is by default an autoloader, so removing a module may see it just reload.21:55

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