/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/04/26/#ubuntustudio-devel.txt

OvenWerkszequence: starting with Xubuntu-core and then starting to add studio to it. jackd2 sure pulls a lot of other stuff in, but we would normally get it anyway.01:47
OvenWerksI added the audio and kernel then started looking at our themes and desktop. I installed -backdrops... and none of those are current :) But they do go well with the default xubuntu theme. So I thought maybe the backdrop is in -look...01:49
OvenWerks-look pulls in more stuff than we need if we are basing off xubuntu-core.01:55
OvenWerksWhat is ubuntustudio-sounds? Do we use this? elementary-icon-theme... we could just as easy put our icon theme on top of the -Xfce-darker theme xubuntu uses. gnome-icon-theme-full? xubuntu uses the gnome default. Murrine-themes... I think we have been using greybird for 4 years now, maybe not pull this stuff in.01:59
OvenWerkszequence: what I am saying is maybe we should base Studio more solidly on Xubuntu so that their testing covers almost everything besides our audio/video tweaks and metas.02:00
OvenWerksI don't have a problem with extra wallpapers, but aligning our themes with xubuntu just makes sense. We have had more than one bad iso just based on theme changes. Really, take xubuntu and put our backdrop in and it changes the whole look. They have a corrected default applications menu that works with the Studio menu stub with no editting. Both in the applications menu as well as wisker... wisker just needs three more clicks to get at a02:09
OvenWerkszequence: I think I will DL the full xubuntu and see if there is anything that needs to be taken out for our use. we may be better basing off of that.02:17
zequenceOvenWerks: We are supposed to make our stuff desktop agnostic, which goes against basing our stuff more closely on Xubuntu08:03
zequencePA will autload modules that are set to be autoloaded in PA settings08:04
zequenceubuntustudio-sounds is an old package from gnome2 days. It should be removed from the archive08:06
zequenceTheming should change at least each LTS. And we change at least the wallpaper. As for the DE theme, that will depend on the DE we are using. 08:07
zequenceMy though is we should try to use a dark variant for theming, as it is the standard for multimedia production - especially video and graphics08:08
zequenceBut, don't think there are good ones for all DEs.08:08
zequenceGnome has a dark variant for Adwaita, which is not bad actually.08:09
zequenceUnity is only half-dark. The panels, but not the content08:25
zequenceSame with a few other themes08:25
zequenceastraljava: If you want to get up to speed with how we do planning nowadays, check out this page in the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/CoreTeamDocumentation08:32
zequenceI'm making blueprints for the X release (16.04). That is the end goal. For 15.10, we'll include whatever is finished, except for theming which I think we should not change until 16.04 (only the backdrop - if someone makes one for us)08:44
zequenceOvenWerks: About jack_control, it makes more sense to study the dbus implementation that jackdbus uses. Been a while since I was working on it, but you can look at the jack_control script for some clues.10:33
zequenceAlso, you'll probably want to look up how dbus works.10:33
zequenceBasically, you can both control and get status changes from dbus, depending on what jackdbus is programmed to do10:34
zequenceOne can find out the interface for jackdbus by talking to dbus10:35
zequenceI'm calling out for contributors on G+, fb and twitter today12:30
zequenceAs well as the mail list12:30
elfyzequence: I'll be about for testcases if that helps12:38
zequenceelfy: Alright, thanks12:38
elfyif you intend to use them of course :)12:38
zequenceI'm still planning on writing some test cases. Would be more fun if someone was available to test them as well :)12:39
elfytell me about it ;)12:39
zequenceDalekSec: Anything special you would like to contribute with the coming one or two cycles?12:40
elfyzequence: all I would say more at this point is that the decision to use them and then the bulk of that testcase work to be done in the next cycle, by the time LTS starts you'll have fun trying to get things done in time to use them12:42
zequenceelfy: I'm hoping we can get as much done within this cycle, so we can just relax and focus on polishing for the LTS12:43
elfyhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TestingTeamPage/Testcases12:44
elfyis where we got to 12:44
zequenceelfy: Yep. Thanks.12:45
elfyI'll likely have more time during this coming cycle than the LTS one 12:45
elfyjust ping me - or send people my way if that helps12:45
zequenceelfy: Will do12:45
astraljavazequence: Ok, will do. Thanks!12:59
OvenWerkszequence: I was also talking about DE themes. We ship the murrina themes which we don't even use14:09
OvenWerksI think there is only one icon in the icon theme too. so if we could add it on the fly having it depend on whatever the user is using... or make it's name unique enough to just add it to high color like we do with the rest.14:12
OvenWerkszequence: what I am saying is that there seems to be a lot fo stuff we are shipping that we don't need to.14:13
OvenWerksif we were to ship a DE theme, we have to make sure ti works with all the DEs.14:13
OvenWerksThis means it should work just as well with kde and unity.14:14
OvenWerksIf we can make our ISO easy, then we have more energy left for doing a DE agostic setup. 14:15
OvenWerkszequence: Speaking of DE agnostic, I don't suppose it is possible (or makes sense) to use the ISO as a package repo for adding workflow packages to other DEs?14:17
zequenceOvenWerks: If we ever go back to having our own theme, then yes, it will need to support all DEs. 14:32
zequenceOvenWerks: I haven't paid much attention to the theming details as I'm not the one who has been involved in implementing them14:32
zequenceI have no idea about the last one.14:33
zequenceProblem with the last one is still RT privilege.14:33
zequence(all though we could arrange that with a script in our audio-core meta14:33
OvenWerkszequence: RT may be needed for video as well... though possibly only for those who use both video and audio anyway (which should probably be all of them)14:36
OvenWerkszequence: is the Liquorix Kernel in debian http://liquorix.net/ any better than our lowlatency? Should we be trying to use something like it? Can we use it as is from the debian repo?14:41
OvenWerksActually it says it is compatible with ubuntu14:42
OvenWerksVideo meta should at least contain the availablility to put cpu in performance. Some users of laptops may want to preserve their battery at slower speed for some things, but I have talked with some people who say that performance mode makes a large difference in render speed.14:45
OvenWerksGraphics may find the same.14:46
OvenWerkszequence: under core-topic-x we need -installer. I don't know if it would be part of the DE-agnostic BP or in core itself. I can see it being used two ways 1) add more sw to our install 2) add Studio to another preinstalled DE.14:55
cubzequence, I hoping to be around a lot more now for the next cycles. Should try to catch up and install 15.04. Hmm and Debian Jessie perhaps...14:55
zequenceOvenWerks: If you mean ubuntustudio-installer, that's under applications14:57
OvenWerkszequence: it would be really nice to bring the GUI for ubiquity to the desktop.14:57
OvenWerksok, that is fine14:57
OvenWerks-installer that we have is not very nice14:57
OvenWerks(it also chokes on Jackd2 install right now)14:58
OvenWerksThe new installer has never been uploaded, but a) I don't know if it fixes this, b) the ubiquity code is much nicer so I don't want to spend time on it.15:00
OvenWerksAh, Applications makes sense now.15:01
OvenWerkszequence: we will use the same bluprints for w as well as x?15:04
zequenceOvenWerks: Same blueprints, yes. We just do the same thing twice, until we have got all of our stuff in.15:09
OvenWerkszequence: makes sense. It would be nice to have the main work done for w and refine for x. But more realisticly, anything we get done in w will be great. Movement at all will be great. (V has been very slow)15:25
OvenWerkszequence: looking at -icon-theme there is literally only one icon in there that needs to be (or should be). That is distributor-logo.png (in a number of sizes). The rest can be a part of -menu where the rest are.15:37
OvenWerkschanging the index.theme to point at a DE specific theme would make this package work with any DE. I am not sure if this means we need to make 5 themes or if we can make just one theme based on the installed DE at install time.15:40
OvenWerksIn the same package we could have ubuntustudio-xfce, ubuntustudio-kde, etc. using the smae icons (symlink) with just a different index.theme that Inherits a reasonable DE specific icon theme.15:43
OvenWerksOr, if there will be a default-settings package per DE, this could be dropped in there... I don't know what makes sense.15:46
zequenceWe shoud use one theme for all, if possible15:49
zequenceThe symlinks sounds good15:50
holsteini was thinking, it may be ideal to clarify contributions.. and maybe the team roles15:52
holsteinif we can just pull in most or all of the desktop,etc, from xubuntu, which, would be a nice way to do it, since they are already doing that work, and doing it well.. 15:53
holsteinwe could let folks know that contributing upstream to xubuntu would help US, and exactly how.. and not be duplicating efforts, hopefully15:53
holsteinand also, clarify what it is that this team is responsible for15:54
OvenWerksholstein: I am actively working on bassing an ISO from xubuntu-core.15:58
elfyOvenWerks: could be :D 16:01
OvenWerksHowever, I am hoping that the work I do there will help with other DEs as well.16:02
holsteinit could be attractive on many levels.. support, etc16:02
OvenWerkselfy: :)16:02
holsteini like the idea of making sure things "just work" on other DE's.. as well16:02
OvenWerksholstein: the little bit I have done with xubuntu-core just works.. the only thing being setting up RT permissions has to be done manually still. but ubuntustudio-controls will fix that.16:04
OvenWerkskubuntu in the past has been the same.16:05
OvenWerkslubuntu also has a broken menu file problem... bugged with fix attached but considered a non-problem "won't fix"16:07
OvenWerksgnome3 has the same menu file bug and unity doesn't have a menu anyway really.16:07
OvenWerksgnome doesn't reall have a menu unless one takes extra steps to add one as well.16:08
OvenWerksEffectively, all tyhe DEs except maybe Lubuntu, are moving away from menus anyway.16:09
OvenWerksKDE maintains the classic menu as well as a whisker-like menu, but also has a more unity/gnome/android like mode. This is fine for most computer uses, but Studio ships so many apps that we need to have some way of organizing the apps so the user a) knows what they have available b) knows what apps are apropriate for what tasks (audacity should not be used for tracking) c) doesn't have to scroll down forever looking for zita-at1.16:13
* OvenWerks wonders how hard writing an xfce panel aplet that host either whisker or the appmenu would be. This would allow switching between the two without removing one and installing the other.16:22
elfyit really is only a small point I make here 16:38
elfyand it acan wait 16:42
OvenWerkselfy: :)16:43
* OvenWerks is off to play some music16:43
holsteinpersonally, i think we should also have a talk about the suggestion of *not* having a distro16:46
holsteinhaving more just the packages that you add to whatever distro you are using16:47
holsteinat the beginning of one of the cycles would be the best time to discuss this..16:47
holsteini thought it was a great idea when someone proposed it, but, it was like 3 weeks before the release of one of the distros ;)16:47
zequenceAs long as there's interest in maintaining an ISO, I think it will endure16:58
zequenceIt's up to those who do the work16:58
zequenceDoesn't mean we should make Ubuntu Studio work easily on any flavor, which is exactly what we're planning to do now16:58
zequenceOne doesn't replace the other. They can co-exist16:59
zequenceSorry, I miswrote. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make Ubuntu Studio easily work on any flavor...17:00
zequenceholstein: Frankly, I'd like to see more ideas on what to do, rather on what not to do :)17:00
holsteinzequence: its not like that17:08
holsteini seriously think its a constructive idea to consider17:08
holsteincovering adaptation into any DE, for example17:09
holsteinim not saying they cant coexsist, and as you are making perfectly clear, its your boat.. steer it as you please17:09
zequenceDidn't realize mythbuntu is only doing LTS releases17:21
holsteini didnt realize it was an official flavor17:21
holsteinyeah.. "community supported add on"..17:22
zequenceIt's an official flavor17:22
zequencehttp://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/flavours17:23
zequenceUbuntu Mate is missing from that list. They just started out17:23
holsteinhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFlavors is where i read "community supported addon"17:24
holsteinits all "community supported".. so, whatever17:26
holsteini havent looked at it in ages to know if they included something outside the repos..17:26
holsteinlooks like they have a google sites page..17:27
holsteini dont know anyone from that project AFAIK..17:27
zequenceThink they are pretty quiet on IRC17:27
zequence12k likes on our facebook page. That's probably about 10k in the past two years or so, since we became more active with it17:31
zequenceOn Twitter, we have 254 followers. Twitter, I don't get17:31
zequenceLess than 2k have us in their circles in G+17:32
zequenceXubuntu has 12k likes on their fb page, as comparison. So, we're not doing too bad17:33
holsteinassuming thats a correlation, sure17:39
zequenceOn G+ Xubuntu has almost 7k followers.17:43
DalekSecLiquorix does work in Ubuntu, not sure how well with LTS releases though (as you could guess, I may know a couple things about it. :P )  I'm not sure how it ranks in lowlat, as I don't use it for that.  As far as anything special for US?  No idea, zequence, my media needs aren't high.17:50
holsteinOvenWerks: so, were you around when someone suggested *not* having a release?18:00
holsteinhow do you feel about that? or the LTS only?18:01
holsteinDalekSec: are there any "gotchas" as far as hardware support?18:01
DalekSecholstein: dkms worked fine for nvidia and vboxhost modules at least, all other hardware tends to work fine.  Weirdly, plymouth's bootsplash only works for Liquorix, not the stock kernels on one computer.18:08
holsteinDalekSec: interesting. you think thats GPU related?18:09
holsteini have nvidia, and it used to act quite odd with rt kernels with the boot splash.. under 10.04, and also 12.0418:09
DalekSecI couldn't say what it is, both right now are the same upstream version.18:10
holsteinsometimes, its challenging to isolate, and know18:10
DalekSecAlso, Liquorix isn't rt, just preempt.18:10
holsteinyup18:10
DalekSecUses bfq as well.18:12
holsteinmhm.. i have installed it in the past18:12
holsteinand i had used a distro that shipped it.. i cant remember what one that was.. years ago..18:12
DalekSecIMO, it's the best out of repo kernel there is, and a good option.  I suppose you could mention it.18:12
DalekSecholstein: Sidux?18:12
holsteinDalekSec: likely sidux.. i do remember looking specifically as sidux18:13
holsteinat*18:13
DalekSec(Great option, as someone that doesn't need a lowlat or rt kernel, that is.)18:16
holsteinwhat do you use it for?18:16
holsteinyou use it for getting lower latency? correct?18:17
holsteini always saw it as something with the side effect of being similar to RT18:17
holsteinsimilar effects18:17
DalekSecI use it as an alternative kernel, but have zero need for low latency.18:20
DalekSecholstein: Only thing to be aware of, repos also contains: sopcast-player sp-auth vmtouch wine1.7 xen-linux-system-3.19-4.dmz.1-liquorix exfalso quodlibet wine18:37
OvenWerksholstein: I have been quiietly and not so quietly trying our metas, kernels amd menus with different DE ISOs.22:36
OvenWerksI think even if we do an ISO as Studio on top of xubuntu, it is worth having our own ISO.22:38
OvenWerksThe big thing we need for being able to do "on top of" installs is an installer that can actually install jackd2 properly and a controls package that can deal with RT priv.22:40
OvenWerksholstein: as you may have read above, I am looking at making our icon package/theme work with all the DEs.22:41
OvenWerksholstein: as I have also mentioned, we provide a lot of packages and need to make as organized a presentation to users as possible. We came up with a menu stub that should work with any (XDG compliant) DE. (even FVWM has ways to fake this)22:44
OvenWerksholstein: however, the DE world seems to be in a rush towards the android style of things with just favourite apps available easily and search through the whole bunch for anything else using a search engine.22:45
OvenWerksIt works really well for the average user who uses less than 10 applications in day to day computing or those who are keyboard search literate (I'm not). The world the win95 menu was built for is still there, but is a smaller percentage of the computing population.22:48
OvenWerksholstein: Studio needs to find a way to organize our apps so the user does not get lost in the large number of applications to do with media.22:50
OvenWerks*media creation22:51
OvenWerksThe one common thing to all the DEs (for now) is that there is a systray (or it`s new counterpart). It is possible to put a workflow applet or menu in there for all DEs ... one package that should just work.22:55
DalekSecWell, unity only has indicators, no tray.22:55
OvenWerksindicators was the word I was looking for. I think there is a tool kit that will look for both and use indicators if it can22:56
OvenWerksIndicators are supposed to be more system integrated and more flexable.22:58
OvenWerksThere are some panels that can not see indicators though, so looking also for system tray is a backup.22:59
OvenWerksDalekSec: indicators is technology we have to get used to if we are thinking cross DE.23:00
* OvenWerks needs to install vanilla and see what works/not23:01
DalekSecLikely.  Some things don't support them, thus don't show up in Unity but work just about everywhere else. :P23:02
DalekSecAlso, trayicons can well have more features still.23:02
OvenWerksWhat is the applet we use for audio? I thought that was an indicator.23:03
OvenWerks(it seems to be pretty featureful)23:04
DalekSecYou use indicator-sound, that's slightly different.  There's indicators and application indicators.23:04
* OvenWerks looks blank :)23:04
OvenWerksI guess I am asking if it works with unity.23:05
OvenWerksI expect qjackctl's tray icon ay not.23:05

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