[01:47] <OvenWerks> zequence: starting with Xubuntu-core and then starting to add studio to it. jackd2 sure pulls a lot of other stuff in, but we would normally get it anyway.
[01:49] <OvenWerks> I added the audio and kernel then started looking at our themes and desktop. I installed -backdrops... and none of those are current :) But they do go well with the default xubuntu theme. So I thought maybe the backdrop is in -look...
[01:55] <OvenWerks> -look pulls in more stuff than we need if we are basing off xubuntu-core.
[01:59] <OvenWerks> What is ubuntustudio-sounds? Do we use this? elementary-icon-theme... we could just as easy put our icon theme on top of the -Xfce-darker theme xubuntu uses. gnome-icon-theme-full? xubuntu uses the gnome default. Murrine-themes... I think we have been using greybird for 4 years now, maybe not pull this stuff in.
[02:00] <OvenWerks> zequence: what I am saying is maybe we should base Studio more solidly on Xubuntu so that their testing covers almost everything besides our audio/video tweaks and metas.
[02:09] <OvenWerks> I don't have a problem with extra wallpapers, but aligning our themes with xubuntu just makes sense. We have had more than one bad iso just based on theme changes. Really, take xubuntu and put our backdrop in and it changes the whole look. They have a corrected default applications menu that works with the Studio menu stub with no editting. Both in the applications menu as well as wisker... wisker just needs three more clicks to get at a
[02:17] <OvenWerks> zequence: I think I will DL the full xubuntu and see if there is anything that needs to be taken out for our use. we may be better basing off of that.
[08:03] <zequence> OvenWerks: We are supposed to make our stuff desktop agnostic, which goes against basing our stuff more closely on Xubuntu
[08:04] <zequence> PA will autload modules that are set to be autoloaded in PA settings
[08:06] <zequence> ubuntustudio-sounds is an old package from gnome2 days. It should be removed from the archive
[08:07] <zequence> Theming should change at least each LTS. And we change at least the wallpaper. As for the DE theme, that will depend on the DE we are using. 
[08:08] <zequence> My though is we should try to use a dark variant for theming, as it is the standard for multimedia production - especially video and graphics
[08:08] <zequence> But, don't think there are good ones for all DEs.
[08:09] <zequence> Gnome has a dark variant for Adwaita, which is not bad actually.
[08:25] <zequence> Unity is only half-dark. The panels, but not the content
[08:25] <zequence> Same with a few other themes
[08:32] <zequence> astraljava: If you want to get up to speed with how we do planning nowadays, check out this page in the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/CoreTeamDocumentation
[08:44] <zequence> I'm making blueprints for the X release (16.04). That is the end goal. For 15.10, we'll include whatever is finished, except for theming which I think we should not change until 16.04 (only the backdrop - if someone makes one for us)
[10:33] <zequence> OvenWerks: About jack_control, it makes more sense to study the dbus implementation that jackdbus uses. Been a while since I was working on it, but you can look at the jack_control script for some clues.
[10:33] <zequence> Also, you'll probably want to look up how dbus works.
[10:34] <zequence> Basically, you can both control and get status changes from dbus, depending on what jackdbus is programmed to do
[10:35] <zequence> One can find out the interface for jackdbus by talking to dbus
[12:30] <zequence> I'm calling out for contributors on G+, fb and twitter today
[12:30] <zequence> As well as the mail list
[12:38] <elfy> zequence: I'll be about for testcases if that helps
[12:38] <zequence> elfy: Alright, thanks
[12:38] <elfy> if you intend to use them of course :)
[12:39] <zequence> I'm still planning on writing some test cases. Would be more fun if someone was available to test them as well :)
[12:39] <elfy> tell me about it ;)
[12:40] <zequence> DalekSec: Anything special you would like to contribute with the coming one or two cycles?
[12:42] <elfy> zequence: all I would say more at this point is that the decision to use them and then the bulk of that testcase work to be done in the next cycle, by the time LTS starts you'll have fun trying to get things done in time to use them
[12:43] <zequence> elfy: I'm hoping we can get as much done within this cycle, so we can just relax and focus on polishing for the LTS
[12:44] <elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TestingTeamPage/Testcases
[12:44] <elfy> is where we got to 
[12:45] <zequence> elfy: Yep. Thanks.
[12:45] <elfy> I'll likely have more time during this coming cycle than the LTS one 
[12:45] <elfy> just ping me - or send people my way if that helps
[12:45] <zequence> elfy: Will do
[12:59] <astraljava> zequence: Ok, will do. Thanks!
[14:09] <OvenWerks> zequence: I was also talking about DE themes. We ship the murrina themes which we don't even use
[14:12] <OvenWerks> I think there is only one icon in the icon theme too. so if we could add it on the fly having it depend on whatever the user is using... or make it's name unique enough to just add it to high color like we do with the rest.
[14:13] <OvenWerks> zequence: what I am saying is that there seems to be a lot fo stuff we are shipping that we don't need to.
[14:13] <OvenWerks> if we were to ship a DE theme, we have to make sure ti works with all the DEs.
[14:14] <OvenWerks> This means it should work just as well with kde and unity.
[14:15] <OvenWerks> If we can make our ISO easy, then we have more energy left for doing a DE agostic setup. 
[14:17] <OvenWerks> zequence: Speaking of DE agnostic, I don't suppose it is possible (or makes sense) to use the ISO as a package repo for adding workflow packages to other DEs?
[14:32] <zequence> OvenWerks: If we ever go back to having our own theme, then yes, it will need to support all DEs. 
[14:32] <zequence> OvenWerks: I haven't paid much attention to the theming details as I'm not the one who has been involved in implementing them
[14:33] <zequence> I have no idea about the last one.
[14:33] <zequence> Problem with the last one is still RT privilege.
[14:33] <zequence> (all though we could arrange that with a script in our audio-core meta
[14:36] <OvenWerks> zequence: RT may be needed for video as well... though possibly only for those who use both video and audio anyway (which should probably be all of them)
[14:41] <OvenWerks> zequence: is the Liquorix Kernel in debian http://liquorix.net/ any better than our lowlatency? Should we be trying to use something like it? Can we use it as is from the debian repo?
[14:42] <OvenWerks> Actually it says it is compatible with ubuntu
[14:45] <OvenWerks> Video meta should at least contain the availablility to put cpu in performance. Some users of laptops may want to preserve their battery at slower speed for some things, but I have talked with some people who say that performance mode makes a large difference in render speed.
[14:46] <OvenWerks> Graphics may find the same.
[14:55] <OvenWerks> zequence: under core-topic-x we need -installer. I don't know if it would be part of the DE-agnostic BP or in core itself. I can see it being used two ways 1) add more sw to our install 2) add Studio to another preinstalled DE.
[14:55] <cub> zequence, I hoping to be around a lot more now for the next cycles. Should try to catch up and install 15.04. Hmm and Debian Jessie perhaps...
[14:57] <zequence> OvenWerks: If you mean ubuntustudio-installer, that's under applications
[14:57] <OvenWerks> zequence: it would be really nice to bring the GUI for ubiquity to the desktop.
[14:57] <OvenWerks> ok, that is fine
[14:57] <OvenWerks> -installer that we have is not very nice
[14:58] <OvenWerks> (it also chokes on Jackd2 install right now)
[15:00] <OvenWerks> The new installer has never been uploaded, but a) I don't know if it fixes this, b) the ubiquity code is much nicer so I don't want to spend time on it.
[15:01] <OvenWerks> Ah, Applications makes sense now.
[15:04] <OvenWerks> zequence: we will use the same bluprints for w as well as x?
[15:09] <zequence> OvenWerks: Same blueprints, yes. We just do the same thing twice, until we have got all of our stuff in.
[15:25] <OvenWerks> zequence: makes sense. It would be nice to have the main work done for w and refine for x. But more realisticly, anything we get done in w will be great. Movement at all will be great. (V has been very slow)
[15:37] <OvenWerks> zequence: looking at -icon-theme there is literally only one icon in there that needs to be (or should be). That is distributor-logo.png (in a number of sizes). The rest can be a part of -menu where the rest are.
[15:40] <OvenWerks> changing the index.theme to point at a DE specific theme would make this package work with any DE. I am not sure if this means we need to make 5 themes or if we can make just one theme based on the installed DE at install time.
[15:43] <OvenWerks> In the same package we could have ubuntustudio-xfce, ubuntustudio-kde, etc. using the smae icons (symlink) with just a different index.theme that Inherits a reasonable DE specific icon theme.
[15:46] <OvenWerks> Or, if there will be a default-settings package per DE, this could be dropped in there... I don't know what makes sense.
[15:49] <zequence> We shoud use one theme for all, if possible
[15:50] <zequence> The symlinks sounds good
[15:52] <holstein> i was thinking, it may be ideal to clarify contributions.. and maybe the team roles
[15:53] <holstein> if we can just pull in most or all of the desktop,etc, from xubuntu, which, would be a nice way to do it, since they are already doing that work, and doing it well.. 
[15:53] <holstein> we could let folks know that contributing upstream to xubuntu would help US, and exactly how.. and not be duplicating efforts, hopefully
[15:54] <holstein> and also, clarify what it is that this team is responsible for
[15:58] <OvenWerks> holstein: I am actively working on bassing an ISO from xubuntu-core.
[16:01] <elfy> OvenWerks: could be :D 
[16:02] <OvenWerks> However, I am hoping that the work I do there will help with other DEs as well.
[16:02] <holstein> it could be attractive on many levels.. support, etc
[16:02] <OvenWerks> elfy: :)
[16:02] <holstein> i like the idea of making sure things "just work" on other DE's.. as well
[16:04] <OvenWerks> holstein: the little bit I have done with xubuntu-core just works.. the only thing being setting up RT permissions has to be done manually still. but ubuntustudio-controls will fix that.
[16:05] <OvenWerks> kubuntu in the past has been the same.
[16:07] <OvenWerks> lubuntu also has a broken menu file problem... bugged with fix attached but considered a non-problem "won't fix"
[16:07] <OvenWerks> gnome3 has the same menu file bug and unity doesn't have a menu anyway really.
[16:08] <OvenWerks> gnome doesn't reall have a menu unless one takes extra steps to add one as well.
[16:09] <OvenWerks> Effectively, all tyhe DEs except maybe Lubuntu, are moving away from menus anyway.
[16:13] <OvenWerks> KDE maintains the classic menu as well as a whisker-like menu, but also has a more unity/gnome/android like mode. This is fine for most computer uses, but Studio ships so many apps that we need to have some way of organizing the apps so the user a) knows what they have available b) knows what apps are apropriate for what tasks (audacity should not be used for tracking) c) doesn't have to scroll down forever looking for zita-at1.
[16:22]  * OvenWerks wonders how hard writing an xfce panel aplet that host either whisker or the appmenu would be. This would allow switching between the two without removing one and installing the other.
[16:38] <elfy> it really is only a small point I make here 
[16:42] <elfy> and it acan wait 
[16:43] <OvenWerks> elfy: :)
[16:43]  * OvenWerks is off to play some music
[16:46] <holstein> personally, i think we should also have a talk about the suggestion of *not* having a distro
[16:47] <holstein> having more just the packages that you add to whatever distro you are using
[16:47] <holstein> at the beginning of one of the cycles would be the best time to discuss this..
[16:47] <holstein> i thought it was a great idea when someone proposed it, but, it was like 3 weeks before the release of one of the distros ;)
[16:58] <zequence> As long as there's interest in maintaining an ISO, I think it will endure
[16:58] <zequence> It's up to those who do the work
[16:58] <zequence> Doesn't mean we should make Ubuntu Studio work easily on any flavor, which is exactly what we're planning to do now
[16:59] <zequence> One doesn't replace the other. They can co-exist
[17:00] <zequence> Sorry, I miswrote. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make Ubuntu Studio easily work on any flavor...
[17:00] <zequence> holstein: Frankly, I'd like to see more ideas on what to do, rather on what not to do :)
[17:08] <holstein> zequence: its not like that
[17:08] <holstein> i seriously think its a constructive idea to consider
[17:09] <holstein> covering adaptation into any DE, for example
[17:09] <holstein> im not saying they cant coexsist, and as you are making perfectly clear, its your boat.. steer it as you please
[17:21] <zequence> Didn't realize mythbuntu is only doing LTS releases
[17:21] <holstein> i didnt realize it was an official flavor
[17:22] <holstein> yeah.. "community supported add on"..
[17:22] <zequence> It's an official flavor
[17:23] <zequence> http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/flavours
[17:23] <zequence> Ubuntu Mate is missing from that list. They just started out
[17:24] <holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFlavors is where i read "community supported addon"
[17:26] <holstein> its all "community supported".. so, whatever
[17:26] <holstein> i havent looked at it in ages to know if they included something outside the repos..
[17:27] <holstein> looks like they have a google sites page..
[17:27] <holstein> i dont know anyone from that project AFAIK..
[17:27] <zequence> Think they are pretty quiet on IRC
[17:31] <zequence> 12k likes on our facebook page. That's probably about 10k in the past two years or so, since we became more active with it
[17:31] <zequence> On Twitter, we have 254 followers. Twitter, I don't get
[17:32] <zequence> Less than 2k have us in their circles in G+
[17:33] <zequence> Xubuntu has 12k likes on their fb page, as comparison. So, we're not doing too bad
[17:39] <holstein> assuming thats a correlation, sure
[17:43] <zequence> On G+ Xubuntu has almost 7k followers.
[17:50] <DalekSec> Liquorix does work in Ubuntu, not sure how well with LTS releases though (as you could guess, I may know a couple things about it. :P )  I'm not sure how it ranks in lowlat, as I don't use it for that.  As far as anything special for US?  No idea, zequence, my media needs aren't high.
[18:00] <holstein> OvenWerks: so, were you around when someone suggested *not* having a release?
[18:01] <holstein> how do you feel about that? or the LTS only?
[18:01] <holstein> DalekSec: are there any "gotchas" as far as hardware support?
[18:08] <DalekSec> holstein: dkms worked fine for nvidia and vboxhost modules at least, all other hardware tends to work fine.  Weirdly, plymouth's bootsplash only works for Liquorix, not the stock kernels on one computer.
[18:09] <holstein> DalekSec: interesting. you think thats GPU related?
[18:09] <holstein> i have nvidia, and it used to act quite odd with rt kernels with the boot splash.. under 10.04, and also 12.04
[18:10] <DalekSec> I couldn't say what it is, both right now are the same upstream version.
[18:10] <holstein> sometimes, its challenging to isolate, and know
[18:10] <DalekSec> Also, Liquorix isn't rt, just preempt.
[18:10] <holstein> yup
[18:12] <DalekSec> Uses bfq as well.
[18:12] <holstein> mhm.. i have installed it in the past
[18:12] <holstein> and i had used a distro that shipped it.. i cant remember what one that was.. years ago..
[18:12] <DalekSec> IMO, it's the best out of repo kernel there is, and a good option.  I suppose you could mention it.
[18:12] <DalekSec> holstein: Sidux?
[18:13] <holstein> DalekSec: likely sidux.. i do remember looking specifically as sidux
[18:13] <holstein> at*
[18:16] <DalekSec> (Great option, as someone that doesn't need a lowlat or rt kernel, that is.)
[18:16] <holstein> what do you use it for?
[18:17] <holstein> you use it for getting lower latency? correct?
[18:17] <holstein> i always saw it as something with the side effect of being similar to RT
[18:17] <holstein> similar effects
[18:20] <DalekSec> I use it as an alternative kernel, but have zero need for low latency.
[18:37] <DalekSec> holstein: Only thing to be aware of, repos also contains: sopcast-player sp-auth vmtouch wine1.7 xen-linux-system-3.19-4.dmz.1-liquorix exfalso quodlibet wine
[22:36] <OvenWerks> holstein: I have been quiietly and not so quietly trying our metas, kernels amd menus with different DE ISOs.
[22:38] <OvenWerks> I think even if we do an ISO as Studio on top of xubuntu, it is worth having our own ISO.
[22:40] <OvenWerks> The big thing we need for being able to do "on top of" installs is an installer that can actually install jackd2 properly and a controls package that can deal with RT priv.
[22:41] <OvenWerks> holstein: as you may have read above, I am looking at making our icon package/theme work with all the DEs.
[22:44] <OvenWerks> holstein: as I have also mentioned, we provide a lot of packages and need to make as organized a presentation to users as possible. We came up with a menu stub that should work with any (XDG compliant) DE. (even FVWM has ways to fake this)
[22:45] <OvenWerks> holstein: however, the DE world seems to be in a rush towards the android style of things with just favourite apps available easily and search through the whole bunch for anything else using a search engine.
[22:48] <OvenWerks> It works really well for the average user who uses less than 10 applications in day to day computing or those who are keyboard search literate (I'm not). The world the win95 menu was built for is still there, but is a smaller percentage of the computing population.
[22:50] <OvenWerks> holstein: Studio needs to find a way to organize our apps so the user does not get lost in the large number of applications to do with media.
[22:51] <OvenWerks> *media creation
[22:55] <OvenWerks> The one common thing to all the DEs (for now) is that there is a systray (or it`s new counterpart). It is possible to put a workflow applet or menu in there for all DEs ... one package that should just work.
[22:55] <DalekSec> Well, unity only has indicators, no tray.
[22:56] <OvenWerks> indicators was the word I was looking for. I think there is a tool kit that will look for both and use indicators if it can
[22:58] <OvenWerks> Indicators are supposed to be more system integrated and more flexable.
[22:59] <OvenWerks> There are some panels that can not see indicators though, so looking also for system tray is a backup.
[23:00] <OvenWerks> DalekSec: indicators is technology we have to get used to if we are thinking cross DE.
[23:01]  * OvenWerks needs to install vanilla and see what works/not
[23:02] <DalekSec> Likely.  Some things don't support them, thus don't show up in Unity but work just about everywhere else. :P
[23:02] <DalekSec> Also, trayicons can well have more features still.
[23:03] <OvenWerks> What is the applet we use for audio? I thought that was an indicator.
[23:04] <OvenWerks> (it seems to be pretty featureful)
[23:04] <DalekSec> You use indicator-sound, that's slightly different.  There's indicators and application indicators.
[23:04]  * OvenWerks looks blank :)
[23:05] <OvenWerks> I guess I am asking if it works with unity.
[23:05] <OvenWerks> I expect qjackctl's tray icon ay not.