[07:36] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:52] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: Indeed it is.
[07:52] <TwistedLucidity> And a good one too
[07:52] <TwistedLucidity> It's sunny, not a cloud in the sky and the last day of the grind for a while.
[07:52] <TwistedLucidity> Yay! \o/
[07:55] <MooDoo> bit cloudy here, but it's good although it was a bit cold this morning
[08:18] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: no idea what you mean
[08:25] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: why do you find our nicks confusing?
[08:26] <davmor2> Morning all
[08:36] <diplo> popey: You are very diplomatic I must say
[08:36] <popey> heh
[08:37] <diplo> Basically want to sell something but I can't be bothered to learn how to do it properly :/
[08:37] <popey> well, debian packaging isn't straightforward
[08:38] <diplo> Yeah but as you say, first hit when googling for it returns good results, he's just not trying
[08:38] <bashrc> debian package is not that hard, but has a lot of rules
[08:40] <ali1234> good results for how to make debian packages? no, they don't exist
[08:40] <diplo> :)
[08:42] <directhex> in the simplest case, debian packaging is really easy
[08:42] <directhex> but knowing how to handle anything beyond the simplest case is often learned knowledge, rather than googleable knowledge
[08:44] <diplo> yeah its what I mentioned in my emails, jot down what you do and learn by your mistakes until you find the correct way of doing things
[08:44] <ali1234> there is no way to even know if you are doing it correctly or not
[08:44] <directhex> that';s the problem
[08:44] <directhex> and causes people to propagate "the wrong way"
[08:44] <directhex> because the way they found works for them
[08:44] <ali1234> right, and there are a very large number of wrong ways to do it
[08:44] <directhex> i've been doing packaging since 2006, and am still making mistakes
[08:45] <ali1234> i still maintain that packaging is harder than writing the software in the first place
[08:45] <directhex> packaging apps is easy
[08:46] <directhex> 3 minute job
[08:46] <diplo> I packaged SQLite into an RPM a few months ago, that was an experience :) but a few clean vm's later and documents I got it to build and work
[08:46] <foobarry> packaging is easy on rhel distros
[08:46] <directhex> packaging libraries is much harder than apps
[08:46] <directhex> as you need to think much harder about how a library interacts with other packages
[08:47] <directhex> i also work full time on this stuff now, for both rpm and deb. i would say both have their highlights, but rpm is much more stupid on average
[08:47] <ali1234> packaging apps that are written in C/C++/something else native and have an autotools build script and don't have any dependencies that aren't already packaged - is just about as easy as it gets
[08:48] <ali1234> and it still isn't particularly easy
[08:48] <directhex> easy enough to fit the full instructions in a tweet
[08:52] <popey> https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218
[08:52] <popey> why was everyone up in arms about paid mods?
[08:52] <popey> is it because there's the danger it would be like IAP on mobile?
[08:53] <ali1234> no
[08:53] <ali1234> it's because the split was ridiculous
[08:53] <ali1234> they should have launched it with someone willing to take a smaller cut
[08:55] <popey> oh, the mod maker only gets 25%?
[08:55] <ali1234> right
[08:55] <popey> I can see why then.
[08:55] <popey> that's bonkers.
[08:55] <ali1234> i mean it depends entirely on the mod
[08:55] <ali1234> that's the problem
[08:56] <popey> sure
[08:57] <ali1234> i mean say someone makes a skin for a weapon model in skyrim
[08:59] <ali1234> that's worth maybe $1 tops to the end user
[08:59] <ali1234> maybe not even that
[08:59] <TwistedLucidity> Silly question, why does Bethesda get a cut of someone else's work? Don't they make money from selling the game and running the severs?
[09:00] <ali1234> the split doesn't seem to bad in that case
[09:00] <TwistedLucidity> I guess they could claim they provide a service to the modders as well and need paid for that.
[09:00] <ali1234> but say someone makes a total conversion
[09:01] <ali1234> then the split is going to really inflate the price to the point it will cost twice as much as the original game
[09:01] <ali1234> so if anything it will discourage large mods, and have everyone making the mod equivalent of shovelware instead
[09:08] <TwistedLucidity> Well, that's easy. The first $0.50 plus 25% (or other figure) goes to Bethesda; the rest to the modder. Not sure what cut Steam wants.
[09:09] <ali1234> 35%
[09:09] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Cubicle Day! :-D
[09:10] <MooDoo> morning JamesTait
[09:10] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: Steam wants 35%? For what, exactly?
[09:10] <TwistedLucidity> Even PayPal doesn't take that much!
[09:10] <ali1234> for running the store, handling payments, and downloads
[09:11] <foobarry> a la playstore/apple store
[09:11] <ali1234> the more important question is why does bethesda deserve 30%?
[09:11] <ali1234> sorry, 40%
[09:11] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: For licensing the valuable IP. Or something.
[09:12] <ali1234> moddrs aren't distributing any IP
[09:12] <directhex> valve take 30% on all store transactions, as the vendor
[09:12] <directhex> every game, every bit of dlc
[09:12] <directhex> it's their standard rate
[09:12] <TwistedLucidity> Not sure what work Bethesda has to do to support modders.
[09:12] <TwistedLucidity> If any....
[09:12] <ali1234> directhex: except for mods, they wanted 35%, for no explainable reason
[09:12] <ali1234> unless i have been misinformed
[09:13] <TwistedLucidity> But they'll take whatever the market will stand, if the market will stand a 40% cut....then that's what Bethesda gets. Seems the market couldn't stand that.
[09:13] <directhex> ali1234: valve took 30%, beth took 45%
[09:13] <ali1234> okay
[09:13] <TwistedLucidity> And corrected.
[09:13] <directhex> as per http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
[09:14] <ali1234> in any case, i don't think people had anything against steam charging in the same ballpark that they always do, which is the same as every digital distributor anyway
[09:15] <ali1234> it was always ethesda's cut that people were unhappy with
[09:15] <TwistedLucidity> OK, so Bethesda created some kind of toolkit. How much that cost, how often it gets used....I dunno. 40% seems rather high, especially as the mod gets bigger and bigger.
[09:16] <TwistedLucidity> Flat fee + smaller cut would seem to make more sense. Or maybe the cut scales down as the cost of the mod scales up?
[09:16] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls
[09:16] <TwistedLucidity> The only one paying extra for large mods would appear to be Steam in terms of storage, transfer etc etc.
[09:18] <directhex> TwistedLucidity: the concern is that beth get paid to make a broken game
[09:19] <directhex> TwistedLucidity: e.g. "skyui" is considered essential by many skyrim players - it makes the inventory system mouse-friendly rather than just using the same inventory as the consoles (which is chunky, for TV viewing). skyUI went paid-only
[09:19] <directhex> so why should bethesda get paid 45% of the money people paid for skyui to fix bethesda's bad UI?
[09:21] <TwistedLucidity> directhex: I dunno, which was kinda my point. They should get a cut for making the modder-tooling (whatever that may be) but is 40% the right amount in all cases?
[09:21] <TwistedLucidity> Either way, if the market (i.e. the modders) will accept Bethesda taking a 40% cut, then a 40% cut Bethesda will take.
[09:22] <ali1234> but they won't, and they should have known that
[09:22] <ali1234> should have launched with a developer/publisher willing to take a 5% or less cut
[09:22] <ali1234> probably an indie
[09:26] <awilkins> 40% does seem like rent seeking
[09:27] <awilkins> I mean, they made those tools principally for authoring their own game content, so it's paid for. People who bought Skyrim already licensed all the IP in it. Modders are only adding to that, why should Bethesda take any cut at all?
[09:28] <awilkins> If they beavered away and made the mod for their own amusement, they'd pay Bethesda dick squat nothing
[09:28] <awilkins> But because they distribute it for cash, Bethesda should get a cut of the money from people who's money they already have?
[09:29] <awilkins> Pardon for slightly channel-inappropriate language
[09:29] <awilkins> Thought I was in the other channel I discuss gaming in.
[09:34] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: Do modders pay Betheda for the Skyrim tool-kit?
[09:36] <foobarry> people get so worked up about games
[09:36] <awilkins> TwistedLucidity, No, it's a free download if you already have the game... so I guess they paid for it in their game license.
[09:36] <awilkins> I would have strong suspicions that it's Bethesda's internal toolkit for making Skyrim content anyway
[09:36] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: Ah, gotcha. In that case I'd still expect to pay Bethesda a bit (for bug fixes etc etc) just not 40%.....
[09:37] <awilkins> Ok, they probably added things like Steam Workshop integration
[09:37] <awilkins> But the mod community is a large part of why Skyrim still sells
[09:38] <awilkins> The value they get from people making mods worth selling is that people will still want to buy Skyrim
[09:39] <TwistedLucidity> I see no issue with the software OEM taking a cut for writing the software (it's simpy a different payment model) but 40% does seem to be overvaluing the software, especially as it doesn't scale with the effort the software's user puts in.
[09:40] <TwistedLucidity> Same goes for Valve. 30% seems awfully high, but maybe they don't have the economies of scale yet (or maybe they do have genuinely high costs)
[09:41] <awilkins> Naah, I think Valve are printing money
[09:41] <awilkins> Have you seen the Valve employee manual?
[09:41] <TwistedLucidity> Well, clearly the market is accepting the rates they set.
[09:41] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: Not working for Valve; no.
[09:41] <awilkins> Oh, it's been put up on the web
[09:42] <awilkins> By Valve! https://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf
[09:42] <awilkins> The section that came to mind is "How to enjoy the corporate vacation." They charter a jet, and take everyone off on holiday.
[09:43]  * TwistedLucidity wishes he was good enough to work for Valve
[09:44] <awilkins> It sounds freaking awesome
[09:44] <awilkins> You decide what you work on.
[09:44] <awilkins> You decide how you work on it.
[09:44] <awilkins> You decide who you work with.
[09:44] <awilkins> Valve is kind of a snapshot into what work would be like with a Universal Basic Income
[09:45] <directhex> but
[09:45] <directhex> valve are not afraid to fire you if your performance figures don't look good
[09:46] <directhex> and they are happy if their recruitment process rejects 99% of people who would be perfect for the company, to avoid risking hiring someone who interviews well but isn't very good in real life
[09:46] <awilkins> "What if I screw up?
[09:46] <awilkins> Nobody has ever been fired at Valve for making a mistake.
[09:46] <awilkins> It wouldn’t make sense for us to operate that way. Providing
[09:46] <awilkins> the freedom to fail is an important trait of the company"
[09:47] <awilkins> But yes, they are happy to let people go if they are not good enough
[09:47] <awilkins> Again, in a world with Universal Basic Income, I like to think that i) That would be the norm and ii) no big deal
[09:48] <TwistedLucidity> I wish to restate my previous statement
[09:49]  * TwistedLucidity wishes he was self-motivated enough to work for Valve
[09:49] <popey> i thought the woman (Anita?) who worked on controllers left under a cloud?
[09:50] <czajkowski> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32481382 confusion ahead if you are hiring a car this summer
[09:51] <TwistedLucidity> czajkowski: Yeah, good old gubbermint. "What's the worst possible way we could do this?"
[09:52] <awilkins> czajkowski, I'm happy that they don't want paper counterparts any more
[09:52] <awilkins> czajkowski, I can never find the damn thing
[09:53]  * awilkins would be entirely happy if it were all just apps on a smartcard
[09:53] <popey> I have never taken my paper counterpart
[09:53] <foobarry> mine is in a safe place
[09:53] <foobarry> which i have forgotten about
[09:53] <awilkins> Mine is somewhere in my house
[09:53] <czajkowski> I dont have one but thought it might be useful to share on here
[09:53] <czajkowski> :)
[09:53] <foobarry> somewhere with the photo albums of photos i took as a ten yr old
[09:53] <foobarry> can't find them anywhere
[09:54] <awilkins> The DVLA is one of the government IT success stories
[09:54] <TwistedLucidity> How odd....the DVLA can't seem to find my dirving license....
[09:54] <awilkins> You can get your car tax paid for online in less than 5 minutes. It's all integrated.
[09:54] <zmoylan-pi> did you change your middle name to drop table; TwistedLucidity? :-)
[09:58] <zmoylan-pi> though i do like that real names cause problems... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4456438/how-do-i-correctly-pass-the-string-null-an-employees-proper-surname-to-a-so
[09:58] <TwistedLucidity> AH, working now
[09:58] <popey> I'm going on holiday later in the year with the inlaws, both of them have thrown that bbc link at me
[09:59] <TwistedLucidity> Wonder how it works when I borrow my dad's car in the EU.
[09:59] <popey> who also both previously told me never to throw away the paper counterpart
[09:59] <popey> (I have hired way more cars than both of them put together, and have never used the paper counterpart)
[09:59] <popey> "Oh, ok mum!"
[10:00] <TwistedLucidity> And I most certainly will not be destorying the couterpart. I keep all documentation like that, I even have my original pass certificates
[10:01] <TwistedLucidity> I do not want to have to re-sit the test because the DVLA mess up (there was a spate about 5 years ago of them losing categories off peoples licenses).
[10:15] <directhex> argh
[10:16] <directhex> bloody rpm
[10:18] <Laney> ruddy rpm
[10:18] <Laney> cute rpm
[10:18] <Laney> ickle wickle rpm
[10:18]  * Laney fluffles rpm
[10:20] <nigelb> Is that like code word for strangulate?
[10:23] <MooDoo> RPM?  Really Pants Management?
[10:24] <jpds> deltarpm++
[10:26] <foobarry> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-32495447
[11:03] <Myrtti_> I value Guardian app telling me of breaking news, sometimes I just wish I had the same cultural background or atleast knowledge than Britons of my age
[11:04] <Myrtti_> "Keith Harris has died. ... who's Keith Harris? Oh. Ok then."
[11:04] <zmoylan-pi> finland had moomins, uk had orville...
[11:05] <Myrtti> sure, apart from the fact that Moomins are more famous than Keith Harris... (because Japan)
[11:06] <foobarry> finaland had moomins, we had the flumps
[11:06] <Myrtti> the whats?
[11:07] <Myrtti> mmkay
[11:07] <foobarry> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDXMUR7eY_8
[11:07] <bashrc> Keith harris I think was big in the late 1970s/early 1980s. Even as a kid I found his performances kind of nauseating
[11:08] <zmoylan-pi> it didn't have the same depth and social commentary as rod and emu :-D
[11:09] <bashrc> true
[11:09] <davmor2> foobarry: not true we had the moomins too
[11:10] <bashrc> I vaguely remember that the emu stuff was rather anarchic
[11:10] <penguin42> yeh, I don't think Orvill attacked as many people
[11:10] <bashrc> yes
[11:10] <davmor2> bashrc: Keith harris was 80's and 90's and not does panto seasons
[11:45] <foobarry> JamesTait: happy ed balls day!
[11:47] <JamesTait> Oo-er missus!
[11:53] <popey> Ed Balls
[11:54] <brobostigon> anyone happen to have a jolla going spare i can borrow, by chance?
[11:56] <zmoylan-pi> can i borrow a cup of nexus... :-)
[11:56] <popey> they're quite expensive for a loaner.
[11:56]  * brobostigon has two nexii
[11:57] <brobostigon> that they are, it seems like an interesting concept, would be nice if they were cheaper.
[11:58] <popey> there is a discount code floating around that you could use
[11:58] <popey> I had a play with one for the first time last week.
[11:58] <popey> the UI is somewhat quirky
[11:58]  * brobostigon goes on a search for the discount code.
[11:58]  * popey asks friend who has one
[12:09] <brobostigon> oe on ebay for £122, not bad, next one up, £174.
[12:19]  * brobostigon installs multirom on his nexus4, and finds a nexus 4 image by jolla to try out.
[12:52] <TwistedLucidity> brobostigon: Sailfish does look interesting, I just wonder how stable the Android emulation is
[12:53] <zmoylan-pi> worse than android running the app? :-)
[12:53] <brobostigon> android emu, ie alien dalvik is only licensed to work on the sailfish os version for the jolla phone.
[13:09] <popey> I win at lunch.
[13:10] <popey> left over roast chicken + curry paste + mayo + bagel = winning bagel
[13:10] <ne2k> nice
[13:12] <awilkins> Nom
[13:13]  * awilkins drank pinkish beige sludge
[13:13] <zmoylan-pi> waffles, beans and sausages...
[13:21] <awilkins> I like those tins of beans + sausages cold
[13:21] <awilkins> Remove lid, apply spoon.
[13:22] <penguin42> yeuch
[13:22] <zmoylan-pi> it was on one of those tins... they're nice
[13:23] <zmoylan-pi> but zapped in microwave on waffles
[13:38]  * brobostigon rages at fb killing off jabber/xmpp, :(
[13:47] <zmoylan-pi> are you paying fb for their service?
[14:01] <shauno> hm.  well pants.  that's the one bit of fb I actually use
[14:17] <brobostigon> zmoylan-pi: not a chance.
[14:18] <brobostigon> use their official app on IOS or android, otherwise your screwed.
[14:18] <zmoylan-pi> it's got to the point that i will use a service but i have no loyalty whatsoever anymore to them.  i'll recommend if they're good and drop them like a shot when they aren't
[14:18] <foobarry> like amazon
[14:18] <foobarry> who are losing me rapidly
[14:18] <zmoylan-pi> i have never used facebook, amazon
[14:18] <foobarry> after their "exlusive to prime members" scam
[14:20]  * penguin42 uses amazon when it's cheapest
[14:23] <diddledan> shauno: facebook cancelled something?
[14:26] <brobostigon> diddledan: yes, on the 30th fb will kill off jabber/xmpp for fb messenger
[14:26] <diddledan> aah yes
[14:26] <diddledan> grrr
[14:26] <diddledan> it's been written on the wall for a while but. sucky in the most.
[14:26] <bashrc> showing their commitment to open standards, no doubt
[14:27]  * brobostigon agrees.
[14:27] <zmoylan-pi> it's like they want people to stop using them
[14:27]  * brobostigon has found a potential bitlbee plugin which may work after shutdown.
[14:29] <bashrc> if they had xmpp they could maybe have people on facebook chatting with people on google, and then where would it end?
[14:29] <bashrc> obviously all communications should take place within the facebook fortress, overseen by a central committee
[14:30] <diddledan> bashrc: except google are also being very open-standards and suggesting they're gonna close their xmpp too
[14:30] <bashrc> yes
[14:30] <bashrc> google are doing the same
[14:31] <penguin42> have either of them got an alternate published protocol for accessing it?
[14:31] <penguin42> I've got some sympathy if they decide that xmpp is broken for one reason or another as long as they have something else
[14:43] <zmoylan-pi> they think they have a monopoly
[14:44] <zmoylan-pi> and a lot of people will sign up and use their new service
[15:01] <foobarry> i need some LED g9 bulbs
[15:02] <foobarry> some people say they strobe a bit though
[15:02] <foobarry> any suggestions?
[15:03] <foobarry> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-66-SMD-Energy-Saving-85v~265v/dp/B00HJ0B012
[15:03] <foobarry> 8p each?
[15:28] <intrbiz> auto pricing alogorithm issues?
[15:31] <popey> what do g9 fit in?
[15:32] <davmor2> popey:  look like my halogen spot or it's bigger brother at least
[15:39] <bashrc> are the BQ ubuntuphones still on sale?
[15:40] <davmor2> bashrc: http://www.bq.com/gb/ubuntu.html I'm going to say yes
[15:40] <bashrc> cool
[15:40] <bashrc> I thought there was a flash sale which ran out
[15:41] <davmor2> bashrc: no flash sales finished
[15:41] <bashrc> ah
[15:42] <davmor2> bashrc: they were only on while they judged popularity and awaited the first batch arriving from the factory :)
[15:43] <bashrc> I see
[15:45] <ne2k> I have a GT-I9100 running Android 5.1. is it going to be worth trying Ubuntu phone on it, or is the experience just going to be so rubbish that there is no point?
[15:49] <davmor2> ne2k: no ubuntu doesn't yet support android 5.1 it would need to be on 4.X for ubuntu support
[15:49] <ne2k> davmor2, I thought it replaced android?
[15:49] <ne2k> isn't it meant to be a native linux OS, rather than android/java/bytecode/dalvik/slow/cack?
[15:49] <davmor2> ne2k: it depends on the drivers.
[15:49] <popey> we use certain kernel modules for access to devices ne2k
[15:50] <popey> like gps / radio / sensors
[15:50] <ne2k> davmor2, popey, so it uses the kernel from android, but nothing else?
[15:51] <popey> basically, yes.
[15:51] <popey> we don't have the "cack" as you call it :)
[15:55]  * brobostigon has ubuntu touch installed on his nexus4 with multirom, dualboot, :)
[15:56] <intrbiz> popey: how much of Ubuntu touch is QML ?
[15:56] <brobostigon> loads of sw missing though, like pushover/pushbullet, IM client, etc.
[15:56] <popey> many of the core apps, much of the shell
[15:56] <popey> never needed an IM client on a phone, or indeed pushbullet
[15:57] <popey> everyone has different use cases
[15:57] <brobostigon> exactly. yes.
[15:57] <intrbiz> so it trades java/dalvik for Javascript/v8
[15:58] <popey> you dont _have_ to use qml :)
[15:58] <intrbiz> sure
[15:58] <popey> some of our stuff is written in C++
[15:58] <brobostigon> btw, there is a pushbullet client on ubuntu touch, however i filed a bug that its broken, so i am not considering it to be functional.
[15:58] <popey> camera and galery for example.
[16:01] <awilkins> I rather liked the unified IM client on the N900
[16:01] <awilkins> They managed to include Skype and all sorts as well as SMS
[16:02] <awilkins> I like that Hangouts tries the same thing but it needs to be more inclusive (or they need to re-enable XMPP federation)
[16:02] <awilkins> I use bitlbee on my desktop because I do like unifying my chats in one window
[16:02] <intrbiz> Palm Pre had the best messaging I've come across
[16:02] <awilkins> And the IRC support in Empathy is *terrible*
[16:03]  * bashrc uses irssi
[16:03] <popey> "people" don't use IM anymore. they have silos.
[16:04] <popey> WhatsApp, Telegram, Viber etc.
[16:04] <popey> (I mean, generic IM apps)
[16:04] <diddledan> it's a worrying trend
[16:04] <davmor2> popey: you forgot the book of face
[16:05] <popey> "etc" covers that
[16:05] <diddledan> the openness of the internet is being subverted to be siloed
[16:05] <intrbiz> its been a growing trend of the last 5 - 10 years, internet is dominated by a few silos where people communicate
[16:05] <awilkins> Yeah
[16:05] <popey> I think the long term plan is for the Ubuntu messaging app (SMS) to also have IM features
[16:05] <davmor2> diddledan: is that not what unix is based on?  Do 1 thing do it well, now everyone else is doing it you are complaining ;)
[16:05] <popey> so there's one app for "everything"
[16:05] <awilkins> You have Twitter people, Facebook people
[16:05] <popey> Also, RIP Keith Harris
[16:05] <awilkins> Although Facebook supports XMPP
[16:05] <popey> not for long
[16:05] <awilkins> Oh
[16:06] <awilkins> How aggravating
[16:06] <brobostigon> 30th is Dday
[16:06] <popey> 2 days in fact
[16:06] <diddledan> davmor2: no not at all - do one thing and do it well so that others can utilise it
[16:07] <diddledan> davmor2: unix supplies interoperability out of the box - the communications siloes aren't doing that
[16:07] <awilkins> Probably the reason Google was so keen on Wave
[16:07] <awilkins> And continue to push Inbox
[16:07] <shauno> hopefully we'll just end up with something that uses fb's native api in libpurple
[16:08] <brobostigon> the sailfish os messaging client does it well, combines sms/fb-messenger etc all in the same app.
[16:08] <awilkins> Yeah, sailfish is done by the chaps who did Maemo - same philosophy as that N900 IM client
[16:08] <popey> but it's evil proprietary software!
[16:08] <popey> etc
[16:09]  * brobostigon has looked at ffos aswell, OSS, :). however lacks again so many areas, and where it does have the apps, they are badly broken and non-functional.
[16:11] <popey> didn't find them that broken
[16:11] <popey> FFOS seemed okay to me, on the Flame.
[16:11] <shauno> hah
[16:12] <brobostigon> ffos itself fine, the basic apps, email contacts etc, however some of the other apps on it, again pushbullet/pushover, IM etc.
[16:12] <shauno> I'm looking forward to ubuntu getting some actual apps, rather than just web wrappers
[16:13] <brobostigon> same issue with ffos.
[16:14] <popey> some people have created wishlists of apps people want to see
[16:15] <brobostigon> the whole discussion is mute anyway, because as of the 30th, to use FB messenger, i will have to use android.
[16:15] <popey> http://sturmflut.github.io/ubuntu/touch/2015/04/24/ubuntu-touch-app-wishlist-april-2015/
[16:15] <popey> s/mute/moot/
[16:15] <popey> no you won't. you can use messenger in the webapp
[16:15] <brobostigon> moot, yes.
[16:15] <popey> you dont have to have the fb app installed, or the messenger app
[16:16] <brobostigon> it however wont notify me, when i get new messages from people.
[16:16] <shauno> all that, and they haven't thought of stuff like .. an email client?
[16:16] <popey> there is one already
[16:16] <popey> dekko
[16:16] <popey> https://uappexplorer.com/app/dekko.dekkoproject
[16:16] <shauno> yeah, I have it installed.  it's .. well I can't think of a nice way to put it
[16:16]  * popey waves to DanChapman 
[16:17] <popey> patches welcome
[16:17] <davmor2> \o/ Dekko
[16:20]  * DanChapman waves back
[16:20] <popey> shauno: got any specific useful feedback?
[16:21] <shauno> well, one's OS-wide, in that leaving the message view seems to hinge around the smallest target on the screen - for the single most likely action
[16:21] <shauno> then hiding prev/next behind a submenu compounds to too
[16:22] <shauno> starring things and deleting things is all very accessible.  actually reading one mail to the next is a chore.  which is what I tend to do with my email
[16:23] <popey> DanChapman: did we ever talk about left/right swipe to/from next mail?
[16:23] <DanChapman> shauno: i agree with you on that one. I've brought prev/next up with one of the design guys before, but was suggested to stick it in that drawer where it is now.
[16:24] <DanChapman> popey: there was talks of it being vertical, so a slightly resisitive pull at the end of a message would bring up the next but oxide hasn't got an api yet for that kind of thing
[16:25]  * DanChapman would like swipe left/right though. 
[16:26] <popey> yeah
[16:26] <diddledan> I think the design guy might be considering aesthetics over usability
[16:27] <awilkins> Hmm, compose on my keyboard is not as documented
[16:27] <shauno> I think moving it to the drawer just leaves the same problem in a different place?  swipe would be nice though (or scrolling off the bottom)
[16:27] <DanChapman> there's a bug for it if you want to add anything to it.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/dekko/+bug/1378282 would help give some weight to the change
[16:27] <diddledan> swipe left n right doens't impact aesthetics and it provides a simple usability
+'+e is not e acute but e circumflex  ê
[16:27] <popey> we use swipe left/right for prev/next track in music
[16:27] <popey> so it has use elsewhere.
+;+e is a acute é
[16:27] <popey> ê
[16:28] <awilkins> See
[16:28] <popey> that was alt-gr + ' + e
[16:28] <popey> é that was with ;
[16:28] <awilkins> Yeah, docs all say that should be é not ê
[16:28] <ahayzen> popey, we should really animate that swipe as its not very discoverable :)
[16:28] <popey> +10000
[16:28] <shauno> one I did notice is that you can swipe the topbar in scopes, but nothing else.  is it a different widget, or just not being used?
[16:28] <popey> Make it so, number one!
[16:29] <ahayzen> :)
[16:29] <ahayzen> should be easier when the new media-hub lands
[16:29] <popey> haha
[16:29] <popey> you always say that! :D
[16:29] <popey> i like that sturmflt wants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorillas_%28video_game%29 ported :)
[16:29] <popey> internet two-player would be fun
[16:29]  * brobostigon points out also, sailfishos is the forrunner, as it has support for his pebble.
[16:30] <diddledan> omg I remember that game!
[16:30] <diddledan> written in BASIC
[16:30] <popey> yeah, qbasic
[16:30] <diddledan> to play it I loaded the .bas in qbasic and used the "run" feature
[16:30] <popey> well done ㋛
[16:30] <popey> we don't have snake on ubuntu touch
[16:30] <popey> this is a terrible omission
[16:31] <diddledan> :-o
[16:31] <awilkins> Results of compose sequences differ from docs at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GtkComposeTable
[16:31] <popey> oh, there is one https://uappexplorer.com/app/com.wellsb.snake-port
[16:31] <diddledan> looks a bit ugly to nme
[16:32] <awilkins> Although my settings say "compose key : disabled"
[16:32] <awilkins> So why it's composing at all is a mystery!
[16:33] <popey> yeah, I want one that looks like a nokia phone version
[16:33]  * penguin42 burps a mug cake
[16:33] <popey> \o/
[16:33] <popey> I made one of those last week
[16:34]  * penguin42 was out of orange marmalade though
[16:36] <shauno> the other one I'm still trying to figure out, is why some apps obey the setting to vibrate on tap, and others don't.  I haven't found any rhyme or reason yet
[16:58] <popey> shauno: be good to list the broken ones. happy to file the bugs for you
[17:00] <shauno> that's what I've been trying to figure out .. I'm not sure if it's the apps themselves.  eg, I have an app that was meant to read hackernews.  in that, I get the buzz in the titlebar but not in the webview
[17:03] <popey> feel the need for http://www.ebuyer.com/583689-binatone-the-brick-mobile-phone-1000249
[17:04] <popey> month of standby :)
[17:04] <penguin42> haha
[17:05] <popey> 128x160 display.. _with_ snake!
[17:05] <diddledan> popey: that's awesome!
[18:05] <Knightwise> intereting project tonight. programming dmx interfaces
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> Knightwise: let there be light!
[18:06] <zmoylan-pi> except for those irritating blue leds hopefully
[18:09] <Knightwise> its a christmass display
[18:09] <zmoylan-pi> so just a few lasers pointing away from the tree to discourage cats...
[18:10] <Knightwise> no , a pretty massive one :)
[18:11] <zmoylan-pi> bigger lasers only encourage larger cats...
[18:11] <Knightwise> outdoors, about 40000lights
[18:11] <davmor2> popey: oh man you just peeked my interest with the _with_ snake!  I mean wow
[18:15] <foobarry> piqued
[18:20] <davmor2> foobarry: that too
[18:22] <shauno> I was just looking at http://snayke.net .. shiny
[18:25] <zmoylan-pi> my brand new shiny nokia dumbphone does *NOT* have snake :-(
[18:26] <davmor2> zmoylan-pi: Man that is a dumb phone
[18:26] <davmor2> zmoylan-pi: is it big enough that it can prop open doors still though?
[18:26] <zmoylan-pi> it's like they wanted to show it's an ms nokia and not a real nokia...
[18:27] <shauno> does it have minesweeper?
[18:27] <diddledan> apparently solitaire is back in win10
[18:27] <zmoylan-pi> it's a dumb nokia.  i could club a terminator 800 robot sent back from the future to death with it :-)
[18:28] <zmoylan-pi> it shipped with a bunch of demo games which i deleted
[18:28] <diddledan> brb, rebooting my router
[18:28] <shauno> just slightly concerned that if it doesn't have snake *or* minesweeper, you might have accidentally bought a charger instead of a phone
[18:28] <zmoylan-pi> i'll have to find a few good ones to add.  i'd like rogue...
[18:29] <zmoylan-pi> and ms have killed the nokia store and opera's store now shows up for software instead.
[18:31] <shauno> doing dist-upgrade on my mailserver.  what could possibly go wrong :)
[18:32] <penguin42> shauno: It's normally a good idea to stop and disable the incoming mail server before doing that
[18:33] <shauno> yeah, I shut off postfix before the backup, so stuff wouldn't be moving beneath me
[18:34] <shauno> I can't really stop it coming, but I can hope to be back before the sending server quits trying
[18:35] <shauno> (except debian's mail-lists, which have some really grumpy bounce handling)
[18:38] <popey> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tiko3d/tiko-the-unibody-3d-printer
[18:38] <popey> that thing has gone a bit crazy
[18:38] <popey> 2.6M USD
[18:39] <popey> back it now, get it in a year :S
[18:42] <penguin42> yeh that's a bit nutty
[18:42] <zmoylan-pi> are they printing them off? :-)
[18:47] <foobarry> does all4 work on linux?
[18:50] <foobarry> doesnt on mine
[18:52] <ali1234> "In most 3D printers, the most expensive (by far) item is the frame." no it isn't, it's the servos and electronics
[18:52] <ali1234> the frame is just some threaded bar that you can buy for £2/m
[18:54]  * penguin42 thought enclosed 3d pritners got slapped with some patent fees from someone who'd managed to patent the idea of a box
[18:54] <zmoylan-pi> could they not just make it a parallelogram or trapezoid? :-P
[18:55] <popey> foobarry: works here
[18:55] <foobarry> oh
[18:55] <foobarry> chrome?
[18:57] <popey> yes
[18:57] <popey> well, i say that, one worked, one doesnt
[18:57] <popey> just spinning
[18:57] <popey> so no.
[19:00] <foobarry> yeah
[19:00] <foobarry> spinny
[19:00] <diddledan> you spin me round baby right round
[19:01] <penguin42> hmm
[19:03] <zmoylan-pi> start crushing their happiness young... https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/tumblr_nmirsgbnuh1qjnhqgo1_500.jpg?quality=94&strip=all
[19:03] <davmor2> baby like a record baby right round
[19:03] <foobarry> its the hal thing i thinkn
[19:08] <popey> foobarry: http://www.channel4.com/4viewers/faq/name/can-i-use-all-4-using-mac-and-linux/id/400287879
[19:08] <popey> :)
[19:09] <foobarry> heh lies!
[19:11] <foobarry> http://www.channel4.com/programmes/peep-show/on-demand/36687-004
[19:11] <foobarry> spinny spinny
[19:12] <ahayzen> foobarry, install HAL from ppa:mjblenner/ppa-hal for 4od to work
[19:12] <foobarry> is that proven to still work in the advent of all4?
[19:13] <ahayzen> oh
[19:13] <ahayzen> foobarry, i clicked on that peep show link and its playing the advert
[19:13] <ali1234> i can't even sign in
[19:14] <foobarry> indeed, ad is now playing
[19:14] <foobarry> will find out in few mins if prg works
[19:14] <foobarry> that was another chestnut
[19:15] <popey> i dont even get adverts
[19:15] <popey> never mind though, all4 sucks on all platforms
[19:15] <popey> not just linux!
[19:15] <ali1234> no channel 4 i am not giving you my name address and phone number just to watch shows
[19:16] <ali1234> do they have a smart TV API that i can abuse to watch without signup?
[19:16] <ali1234> i bet they do
[19:16] <penguin42> the registration for the extended guarantee on my kettle (free extra eyar) wanted dob and marital status, two phone numbers etc
[19:17] <foobarry> just wiat till u watch a programme
[19:17] <foobarry> so many ads
[19:18] <foobarry> also no chromecast support
[19:18] <ahayzen> oo it says "Welcome, Andrew" before the program lol
[19:18] <ali1234> that's creepy
[19:19] <popey> stop watching...
[19:19] <foobarry> popey: after installing the hal from that ppa i get it
[19:19] <popey> you'll get an email later "Hey Andrew, if you want to carry on watching..."
[19:19] <popey> ok
[19:19] <ali1234> FFFFFF.....
[19:19] <ahayzen> lol popey but peep show <3
[19:19] <diddledan> that wasn't 4 who said that - it was gchq letting you know they're watching
[19:19] <popey> true enough
[19:20] <ali1234> i get those emails from ebay and amazon "hey you forgot to buy this thing you looked at" - no i didn't, go away
[19:21] <shauno> that's not always bad though.  I went to buy some speakers from a store in limerick, but during the checkout it said they'd be delivered the next day.
[19:21] <foobarry> nathan barley is tisted but compelling
[19:21] <shauno> so I held off until I had a day free
[19:21] <shauno> they phoned me up and offered me a decent discount :)
[19:21] <popey> it's well weapon.
[19:22] <shauno> it would have been annoying, except I was going to finish the purchase in a few days anyway.  so they knocked almost 100e off the price for no need
[19:28] <foobarry> strange, this notion of customer service
[19:29] <foobarry> i had stone slabs delivered in pieces and the company refused to replace them
[19:29] <foobarry> they were good only for rubble
[19:31] <ali1234> did anyone see that news story yesterday? apparently there is a shortage of bricks
[19:32] <zmoylan-pi> the riots for that will be strangely peaceful? :-P
[19:33] <zmoylan-pi> or will the invites go out byob...
[19:46] <shauno> is anyone else besides zmoylan-pi in ireland?  trying to figure out who does a good rate on payg data
[19:47] <zmoylan-pi> only tesco mobile do payg in ireland now.  all the rest are rolling contracts where the credit you buy is used up with in 2 weeks
[19:48] <zmoylan-pi> as someone who can make €5 of credit last 2-3 months this would put my mobile bill by at least 400% :-)
[19:49] <foobarry> hey giffgaff just upped the data onthe £7.50pm to 500MB !!!yay
[19:49] <foobarry> i was onthe verge of switching provider
[19:50] <zmoylan-pi> i use opera mini as browser and can last all day browsing the web, rss, twitter, email <50mb daily allowance
[20:04] <foobarry> boingboing.net/2015/04/28/bedtime-stories-sound-way-more.html
[20:04] <foobarry> weird
[20:06] <shauno> hm.  vodafone don't let you pick what size sim you need.  that seems a bit .. out of the loop
[20:08] <zmoylan-pi> isn't there a guillotine that cuts large sims to size?
[20:11] <shauno> I guess I'll have to wander into town and get them to chop it?  I just ordered off their website
[20:11] <daftykins> shauno: unless you're handy with a knife yourself :>
[20:12] <shauno> still seems a bit backwards.  I guess they've been out of the business for the last 5 years or something
[20:14] <daftykins> most ones i get these days are multi size and you just pop 'em out?
[20:14] <daftykins> biab
[20:17] <zmoylan-pi> tis ireland, we use flint sims :-)
[20:26] <ball> I've been to Ireland!
[20:26] <shauno> heh, I honestly don't know.  o2/3 make you choose, and I don't really go through them that often
[20:29] <zmoylan-pi> well good news o2 and 3 are now one and the same.  should we call them o5?
[20:30] <shauno> they don't seem to care what I call them  lol
[20:36] <diddledan> surely o6, no?
[20:36] <diddledan> or o23
[20:36] <diddledan> and means multiply
[20:36] <diddledan> or means add
[20:40] <zmoylan-pi> or o2/3 which would be read as o two thirds... which does sound like what we'll end up with :-P
[20:40] <zmoylan-pi> the network has been down a few times since the takeover
[20:42] <diddledan> my honeypot found a new spamm0r: http://www.projecthoneypot.org/ip_185.81.158.66
[21:18] <intrbiz> has ofcom approved it yet?
[21:20] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[21:20] <shauno> it's already happened here
[21:20] <bigcalm> Finally sorted out the networking at home. My irssi proxy is back at last
[21:25] <Myrtti> I just hope O2 and Three joining up means that the reception gets better, not worse from what it is now
[21:26] <shauno> all I've noticed so far, is that my monthly call begging me to get a new contract, comes from a new number now - so I accidentally answered it
[21:28] <daftykins> :D