[00:00] right, same way I can't tell the difference between ť and 'ch' [00:00] I keep getting told "not 'ch', 'ch'!" [00:00] :D [00:02] and then they have whole chunks of grammar that we don't. like the difference between (it is a) good day and (have a) good night is a different spelling of 'good' [00:03] apparently 'good night' is accusative? [00:04] shauno: I think there are also things we have that they don't; the way that we change the tense when we talk about something someone else said for example [00:04] honestly don't know about that one [00:04] I know they have 8 different word endings, I haven't figured out what they're all for :) [00:05] ugh that sounds horrid [00:05] shauno: Neither did I until I heard them explaining it [00:06] shauno: For example, if you said "I'm going to eat a pie" then I might say to daftykins, "shauno said he was going to eat a pie"; I've put the 'was' as a past tense [00:07] that's right about where I start to lose my mind .. I think they'd put 'said' and 'eat' in a different tense, instead of am/was [00:08] so the concept exists but it doesn't translate well. that's how a lot of things come out sounding like a bad holywood russian [00:08] shauno: Yes, the russians tend don't tend to say 'the' in a lot of places [00:08] ...tend not to say.... [00:11] oh here we are. 4 gender-cases, 3 nominative(number) cases, gentive, dative, accusative, locative and instrumental [00:12] shaundo didst spake that he may a pie devour [00:12] :D [00:12] -d [00:13] oh man, don't get me started on how many mutations they have of names. I'm not sure there's even rules there [00:14] so yeah. I'm at menus and streetsigns :) [00:14] and even menus get weird. I've given up trying to keep track of all the mutations of 'potato' and just assume anything containing 'zem' involves potatoes. [00:16] * penguin42 did a bit of this for German trying to translate things I'm allergic to - they have so many ways of saying nut (and mutter is not that type of nut) [00:17] although oddly, I seem to have committed 'cabbage' and 'ladybird' to memory. I'm sure that'll come in useful some day [00:18] so even when I do pick up the odd word, I seem to place the emphasis on 'odd' [00:24] but I still can't use them in sentences. I can't say "two butterflies" because I don't know what gender butterflies are [00:29] google translate seems to struggle with this too. posteľ and posteľova both translate to 'bed'. so I'm not sure which one I'm going to, but goodnight [00:31] :D [00:31] nn sir === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [06:57] morning [07:11] morning [07:12] friday [07:22] good morning comrades... ready to fight the capitalist oppressors? [07:23] nope - only one of those I'll see today will be a dentist - not fighting them when I'm lying down with my gob open and they've got pointy things [07:30] would you prefer the dentist with the blunt instruments? :-) [07:31] sharp and pointy is fine - I'll just not be fighting them :D [07:45] hey everyone [07:54] howdy knightwise [07:55] elfy: what do we want? "effuffllffuuh". when do we want it? "owww!" [07:55] ha ha === feisar is now known as Guest72152 [08:05] now spit! [08:09] There :) just upgraded from my p1 to my p2 :) [08:15] Morning all [08:18] happy May day [08:18] morning [08:19] rpi2? [08:20] yep :)- [08:20] I expect it's a lot faster [08:20] I run my calibre ebook server on it too :) its a LOT more responsive now [08:20] happy I did the move [08:21] what's the stability like? Do you ever need to reboot it? [08:21] just did an apt-get upgrade , and copied over the Sdcard of my p1 to my pi2 and boom [08:24] now all I need to do is build a remote backup solution using bittorrent sync [08:27] or rsync [08:30] Good morning all; happy Friday, and happy Batman Day! :-D [08:32] batman was a capitalist... this is internaltional workers day \o/ [08:32] morning all [08:34] morning [08:35] lo [08:35] 0/ [08:36] JamesTait: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/bb/5b/81bb5bbc94a8aacae12292664bd85c47.jpg I return you to my bat appreciation day image [08:37] zmoylan-pi: technically it is victory in europe day and the only ones not celebrating it are the victors, go figure :D [08:38] isn't that next week? [08:39] \o/ \o/ \o/ friday [08:39] yay we are all winners popey long weekend too [08:40] ya! [08:40] * popey is in that london today [08:40] shauno: you are right it's the 8th oh and we still don't get it off, like the rest of Europe [08:41] davmor2, we have a book here (somewhere, in a pile, in a box, in the boys' room) called Batty Cat. It didn't look anything like that. [08:41] popey: oh go give joc a slap [08:42] popey: I am off to the caravan at Lunchtime \o/ [08:43] yeah, was talking to a friend on the continent .. pretty jealous they get the 1st and the 8th off. Ithink france has 4 public holidays in may? [08:43] shauno: indeed [08:44] ireland been a staunch catholic country doesn't like socialist holidays so we don't have the 1st off. but we do get first monday off instead. they tried getting rid of thatt but people just took the day off instead causing chaos. so it came back [08:48] I'm not sure I'm a fan of this whole thing of moving all the holidays onto mondays - as much as I'd like to see mondays banned [08:49] a couple of years back, xmas & boxing day fell on sat/sunday. I worked both days - someone else worked mon/tues 27/28 and got the holiday pay for it instead [08:52] decimal time and dates... bonus points it'll get rid of the american mm-dd-yy [08:52] * zmoylan-pi rabble rouses [08:55] YYYY-MM-DD 4tw [08:56] I had to deal with systems that stopped working if the server locale was set to "USA" (ie, the default) [08:56] just saw miliband tripping off the stage LOL [08:56] Because the code did a load of parsing 6-figure dates assuming they were British format [08:57] The MS Script host does it too [08:57] * awilkins wonders if it's still a bug [08:57] VBSCript : [08:58] I do like the iso one. especially for logs, since date-order and alphabetical-order are the same thing, everything seems to just work [08:58] CDate("12/01/1990") comes out "1st december 1990" regardless of locale [08:58] CDate("13/01/1990") comes out 13th January [08:59] Writing ASP Classic pages in VBScript and having to contend with that is SUPER FUN [09:00] If you must store dates as text, always, always, ISO format [09:01] morning boys and girls. [09:02] Tesla Powerwall : 7kWh battery for the home [09:02] Wonder if it would be an economic prospect just with Economy 7 here in the UK [09:02] Apparently $3,000 to fitters [09:05] UK typical daily consumption is 9kWh [09:06] Anyone know what the economy 7 rates are vs standard rates? [09:07] awilkins: http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/economy-7/ [09:07] Yeah, been there [09:07] CAn't find like, numbers [09:07] That site just makes you walk through their price comparator and gives you aggregate yearly savings [09:08] Ok, one from Feb last year [09:08] http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2548171/What-Economy-7-does-work.html [09:09] So, night rate is 6-7p cheaper than day rate [09:09] Let's say 6 [09:11] If you're able to shift 70% of your energy consumption to using the battery, then you can save £138 a year if you have average usage of 3300 units [09:11] So : at £2,000 wholesale a bit of a pricey prospect. [09:12] but if you're in an area with intermittent power like a remote rural place where you might expect to have 2-3 days without power a year... [09:13] Yeah, they do a 10kWh one as well [09:13] If you're in that remote location you probably want to supplement with renewable generation, maybe a windmill and some solar [09:14] The marketing is that you can get off grid because you can store your excess [09:14] Not sure how that works with having a Tesla in your drive as well [09:15] Since that will eat charge like mad [09:15] awilkins, zmoylan-pi: water wheel is more reliable [09:16] Definitely, but locations where you have enough drop are fairly scarce [09:18] my inlaws have a watermill , my dad in law is a retired professor who knows a lot about electronincs, [09:18] making power with a water wheel is not that simple [09:24] only because water power has fallen out of favour as till recently did wind power. we're more interested in large scale power production instead of small decentralised localised power production [09:24] Are we talking a mid level between millstones, and dams with turbines? [09:25] Because turbines beat waterwheels for efficiency [09:26] turbines beat everything for efficiency [09:27] this isn't about efficency, this is about decentralised, small scale power production. [09:28] and more and more people are interested in living off the grid [09:28] Sorry, was misplacing the "we" - you meant "we as a civilization" rather than "we as a group of people interested in waterwheels" [09:28] ooops, sorry, there are a lot of we's :-) [09:29] some want huge single centralised, some want smaller scale scattered, some want distributed. never going to make everyone happy [09:30] centralize and you build in weakness [09:31] centralised gives you economy of scale. not to be sneezed at [09:32] The problem comes when the robustness of your centralised system is eroded for the sake of profit [09:33] then it becomes a how much input the state has to ensure standards/fair play [09:36] it seems to me that a lot of bad things in life can be traced back to too much centralization [09:36] knightwise: I've seen a mill in the uk that is self sufficient based on it's water wheel [09:36] whether it be web servers or windmills [09:37] yet when you compare how different the mobile phone systems are in europe versus usa when central government enforced rules versus capitalism... [09:38] think of the gigantic server farms. In any future war where do you think those will be on the target priority list? [09:38] awilkins: i have an electric car. ish. what was the question? [09:38] they make take our freedoms, but they'll never get our pi's!! :-) [09:38] pretty low because disrupting the enemy's ability to look at cat photos will only give them more time to build weapons [09:40] directhex, We were talking about the new Tesla home battery and speculating if Economy 7 makes it an economic prospect [09:41] Upshot : average home will save £138 per annum by shifting 70% of their electric usage to the battery and charging it overnight [09:41] so filling it up at 6p a unit, and using it during the day when you'd be billed 11p a unit? [09:41] Cost of battery being £2,000 wholesale, this seems like poor value [09:41] Difference is 6p [09:42] most home greenery is a long-term investment. solar panel installation doesn't break even for more than a decade either [09:42] am i saving money when i spend 200 on getting a car charger installed, 150 on a cable, etc? [09:42] Solar panels don't wear out as much as a Li-ion battery though [09:42] If you have the car you're probably saving money [09:42] Because a car's energy use is so much greater than a house's [09:43] mmm, the charge cycle is pretty predictable though on the home battery [09:43] But that's a different question [09:43] directhex, I suppose you can decrease the charge wearing a lot on a home battery [09:43] especially w/ trickle charging [09:43] did i see someone say it was 10kw? [09:43] er, 10kWh [09:43] There's a 7kWh model and a 10kWh [09:44] £138 figure is for the 7kWh model [09:44] Average leccy usage of 9kWh/day [09:44] Hence 70% on battery [09:44] well, i wonder if they've done something similar to the volt [09:45] If you moved a power hungry thing like laundry to the night as well you could probably get that %age up to 100 [09:45] volt battery is 16kWh, but software limited to 10kWh for load balancing [09:50] ruben [09:51] lol [09:52] ED BALLS [09:52] can you run your house off your car battery? [09:53] my brother lives in rural location that usually loses power 2-3 times a year. he runs a fair few devices off the batteries in his van using inverters [09:53] i mean if you have an electric car [09:54] "easily" [09:54] i think the new prius have an option for that [09:55] http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Man-Uses-a-Toyota-Prius-to-Power-his-House-During-Weeklong-Blackout.html [09:55] that sounds like something involving caravans is just waiting to go wrong [09:56] ali1234: yes, in Japan (for £4000 in 2012) http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/nissan/nissan-leaf-can-power-your-home maybe more widespread and probably cheaper now [10:15] awilkins: i thought there was no such thing as economy 7 anymore [10:15] * popey catches up [10:16] economy 8? [10:17] econ7 is often more ££ [10:18] if a car had a fuel cell then maybe it could power a home [10:18] if you could afford a car with a fuel cell you could afford a backup generator/solar/wind installation [10:19] I can't justify anything more than an £8k econobox for a car [10:20] TBH I'm of the opinion that unless your business involves hauling objects or people, anything more is just posturing [10:20] I suppose if you drove a LOT, comfort is a factor [10:20] There are some encouraging trends. Electricity requirements for consumer electronics (laptops, phones, tablets, TVs) are getting smaller and also things like solar are getting cheaper [10:20] or size of family [10:21] zmoylan-pi, My parents, and my family, both functioned with a normal sized saloon [10:21] * zmoylan-pi waits for the day i can run my solar powered tv inside powered by the light of the solar powered tv... :-) [10:21] There are already cameras that are powered by the light they are taking the photo of... [10:22] that's slightly different though - they're not creating the same light, so it's not a closed system [10:22] wifey wants me to get rid of my car and get something else. [10:22] I rather like my old nail [10:22] my parents had 5 kids. the 7 of us in fiat 850 travelling length of ireland on driving holiday in the 70s is still something we all remember... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_850 [10:23] hehe [10:23] has she already mandated what something else is? or could you stimmy the convo with some well-placed motorocycle brochures ;) [10:23] nice [10:23] motorcyles are veoted [10:23] was a condition of marriage [10:23] (ish) [10:23] anyone have problems openening up java files from 15.04 just by double clicking on them? [10:23] hah, I had the same veto popey :) [10:23] No mobikes allowed, mum won't let me [10:24] No need to worry anymore :) [10:24] Granddad had a nasty mobike accident early on in life [10:24] Had the scars and pins in his leg to prove it [10:24] MooDoo: works here [10:24] Probably saved him from being drafted (along with being a good engineer and needed to work on planes and torpedoes and stuff) [10:25] popey: do you have a "open with link to java" when right clicking on a java file?" in my case minecraft.java ? [10:25] minecraft.java [10:25] ? [10:25] surely minecraft.jar? [10:25] minecraft.jar ? [10:25] sorry .jar [10:25] i do [10:25] (we had 5 kids too, but a volvo 240 instead of a sewing machine. luckily, being the tallest, I was never subjected to the barfbench in the boot) [10:25] i right click,. open with -> open with openjdk [10:25] wierd, ok thanks [10:26] wifey doesn't want to dictate which car we have next, just that mine is a bit of a nail, and needs replacing [10:26] but it's the car the kids grew up with so they know it well :) [10:26] been on holidays in it and stuff [10:29] yaknow how quantum theory dictates small things and relativity dictates big things? I'm pretty sure the number of children you can fit in a volvo 240 estate is the physics no-mands-land between the two [10:29] * popey hugs volvos [10:31] popey: I can recommend the Skoda Superb lovely and basically a passat :) [10:31] popey: big boot and loads of space inside too :) [10:32] a fiat bambino, for family togetherness... :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_500 [10:32] "Volvo" [10:33] volvo means rolling wheel or something doesn't it? [10:33] ah "i roll" [10:35] Volvo - the motto of the Autobots [10:36] Shame none of them turn into Volvos [10:37] They should have an Autobot accountant / Health and Safety exec who turns into a Volvo [10:37] none of the autobots want to be called boxy [10:37] "Hey, I'm Boxy, but I'm good!" [10:38] it's an older meme... but it checks out... [10:41] so much to chose from... :-) http://thechive.com/2015/05/01/some-people-dont-just-want-their-cars-to-get-them-from-a-to-b-40-photos/ [10:42] Reason: Not allowed to browse Lingerie/Bikini category [10:42] o_O [10:43] you trying to get me in trouble? [10:43] only cars and the... remains of cars on that page. [10:44] right, to the post office to pay bills... [10:44] ::insert spinning euro symbol:: [10:53] so i bought a fitness band [10:53] turns out its useless if i can't sign in to teh app [10:54] haven't been able to sign in yet ..2nd day trying [10:54] I was thinking of crocheting or knitting a cozy for our smart scale [10:54] the top is made of glass and we seem to accidentally kick the scale so it bumps against the radiator pipes or wash basin pedestal [10:55] my mrs is now selling her hand spun merino and alpaca is the local craft shop :D [10:55] nice [10:55] hm. [10:55] that's a good point. [10:55] I have some selfspun ramie leftover from the UV hat that would be excellent for the cozy [10:55] foobarry: fitbit and jawbone both have linux software === Guest72152 is now known as feisar [10:56] (third-party) [10:56] eaten too much cake this morning [10:56] not sure lunch is ready for me yet [10:59] ali1234: cheers, i just found a reddit sub that showed me some 3rd party apps for my miband [11:00] i call it ed === AlanBell_ is now known as AlanBell [11:12] in forum "you need to reply to post to get download link for app" . so 2592 pages of posts, no idea if any contain useful info. worst idea ever === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away [11:18] has nayone watched "going clear"? [11:36] foobarry: bad forum rules: "don't make a new thread, post on the thread for " [11:36] no, this is why forum software has categories === alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch === alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g [13:08] :) [13:41] morning [13:51] * penguin42 yawns [14:14] bugger, forgot to pay for parking [14:15] * popey pays now and hopes he doesn't get a ticket [14:18] :-( [14:20] sounds like an opportunity, parkup.io - Automatic PAYG parking [14:22] (I may have been binge watching Silicon Valley) [14:25] you would need accurate and trusted position stuff for that [14:26] nah [14:26] car parks aren't that close to eachother generally [14:26] i'm thinking smartphone + iBeacon(s) [14:26] well, i say that and there are two at Farnborough station I think [14:27] yeah https://www.myringgo.com/parkinglocator/2002 and https://www.myringgo.com/parkinglocator/2013 [14:31] closest I've found so far is www.dashpark.com [14:31] It does require GPS to be on though; sometimes my google position on my phone is a few miles out [14:34] popey: I'm at the Caravan in the sunshine sipping coffee and testing phones does it get better than this [14:34] \o/ [14:35] Sunny in (that) London too [14:35] gotta love when it's sunny in "that london" [14:45] London SA? [14:45] London oklahoma? [14:46] BlueFin in Southwark Street [14:50] hmm just had a nice plug and play experience with a logitech C525 webcam on a 12.04 machine up at a clients [14:50] just had to drag the microphone sensitivity up in sound settings and it's perfect in skype :O [14:52] most webcams just work (there's a USB camera protocol standard) [14:52] yeah UVC [14:53] i did check all that before buying naturally, it's just we had some entitled asshat in #ubuntu last night who was getting all "I'M TAKING IT BACK RIGHT NOW!" claiming it wasn't working [14:54] working on Linux didn't even really matter, it just saves me a reinstall :> [14:54] though that box could probably do with running 14.04 by now [14:55] daftykins: the same asshat that you installed it for>? [14:56] no [14:56] aah [14:56] no doubt a 'murican [14:56] just coinkydink? [14:56] indeed! [14:56] i found it quite funny someone had the same model [14:56] especially moaning the day before you're due to install one [15:01] absolutely [15:02] they then went back to the drawing board with cheese and somehow remedied it without telling us how [15:03] grr [15:03] I hate when people just say "oh I fixed it, bye" [15:03] mmhmm [15:03] even the word 'fix' gets thrown around a bit :> [15:04] yeah sometimes people use "fix" to mean "gave up and did something else" [15:04] obligatory https://xkcd.com/979/ and https://xkcd.com/763/ [15:05] :S [15:06] yay, my odroid C1 arrived :D [15:11] intrbiz: Didn't you order that months ago, or was that someone else ? [15:11] what's the diff between that and the pi2? [15:11] I remember talking to someone about running Kodi(XBMC) on it [15:12] or should we call it 2pi-r? [15:12] or pi-d? [15:12] ;) [15:12] I'm not 100% sure, I was checking it out before the pi2 came out, but overall it had more ram/better cpu etc [15:12] they're missing out on mathematically funny in-jokes [15:13] 6.28318... [15:14] the main difference I See is giganet instead of fastnet [15:14] http://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=9152 [15:14] perhaps that NIC isn't foolishly attached via USB too :D [15:14] Lots of info there [15:16] * penguin42 wonders when odroid are going to get around to doing 64bit stuff [15:28] popey: 1st world problems, I've had to mostly close the blind so I could still see the screen E:TOOMUCHSUN :D [15:28] davmor2: :-o [15:29] davmor2: this is why I prefer nighttime! :-p [15:29] plus the sun does nasty things to my complexion [15:29] I don't actually prefer nighttime. it just seems to be the natural result of "too lazy to get up" vs "too lazy to go to bed" [15:30] I believe the kids these days call it a "sun tan" [15:30] do you take any vitamin supplements to counteract the lack of exposure? [15:30] nah, there's no fun in that [15:31] ;] [15:31] if that ginger beard isn't just a figment of my imagination, I fear he's actually designed for the lack of exposure [15:32] so, even if you hate microsoft, look-out for talks involving one "Scott Hanselman" - he's fun [15:32] shauno: That's just an extremely late chronotype [15:32] shauno: lolo [15:32] shauno: at least my hair isn't ginger, only my beard [15:33] although I do love redheaded girls - they purdy [15:33] there's something about the freckles [15:35] so random topic change - what do folk think about private addresses in public dns? [15:35] silly but harmless, unless you're paranoid about revealing internal topologies [15:35] e.g. we've got a zone in company dns for our vpn hosts with 10.0/24 addresses [15:36] that's my thinking, it doesn't really matter IMO [15:36] diddledan: It does let people know a bit too much about your internal network [15:36] you could go google split horizon if you want to make it tidy :) [15:36] I've just heard folk moan about such things in the past [15:37] diddledan: I think it's more normal to have an internal. subdomain that doesn't resolve externally [15:37] we've got vpn.example.com which is public [15:37] we do it for a lot of things where we have a 10.address internally and a dmz address externally, for the same hostname [15:37] huzzah remembered how to change grub default menu choice [15:38] daftykins: grub2? [15:38] diddledan: Yeh I mean it wont break; but I don't think I'd have it public [15:38] I have no idea about 2 [15:38] split horizon isn't as difficult as it sounds. you just define two acls, and then attach a different zonefile to each [15:38] diddledan: ja [15:39] the trouble tends to be remembering to update them both ;) [15:41] heh [15:42] luckily our vpn internal addresses rarely change, but we have many hosts so remembering them all by number is a pain to say the least [15:43] you're not meant to remember them. make them predictable, make them documented, and point names at them :) [15:43] I might investigate hiding the vpn from public dns because obscurity means security [15:43] see also: how the zark am I meant to remember these ipv6 addresses [15:44] be careful trying to hide the vpn. remember that clients connecting to it kinda need a public address :) [15:45] I wonder how many ip6 names are gonna end up with things like BABE or CAFE or the like in them [15:45] or B00B :-p [15:45] people have done that for years :-) [15:45] or face:b00c lol [15:45] penguin42: I mean the actual ip6 number, not the address [15:45] dns address** [15:46] oh they've been doing it with ipv6 addresses for about as long as they've been able [15:46] diplo: ordered it yesterday, their is a UK distributor now [15:47] there** [15:47] diddledan: Yeh I know :-) [15:47] its a quad core A5 @ 1.7GHz, 1Gb RAM, about 30% faster than rPi2 and has reall gigabit nic [15:47] *GB [15:48] even, yeh [15:48] Oh I've not come across anything with an A5 before [15:48] the gig nic is RGMII, no USB, so can actually shift 1Gb/s [15:48] I have some ram chips that actually are 1Mb, not MB [15:48] people like 'quad core' so you get the chips with the lowest spec cores but 4 of them [15:49] hehe [15:50] at almost double clock speed of the rPi2, even with the A5 rather than the A7 cores, the Odroid C1 get about 30% over rPi2 on benchmarks [15:50] shauno: that notation annoys me :> why not just call it 128KB D: [15:50] it also supports UHS for the SD card, so you can get faster IO for the SD Card [15:50] daftykins: because KB = Kelvin Byte [15:51] wat [15:51] daftykins: no idea. especially since it is actually addressed in words, so there isn't 1M addresses [15:51] daftykins: Capital K is Kelvin [15:51] so kilo is a lower case [15:51] mb confuses me - millibits? [15:51] pff [15:51] millibars of pressure D: [15:52] kilo is the only multiplier in SI which is not capital [15:52] and then I think you get the geneticists using b for base pairs [15:52] plus, we should actually say: GiB not GB as it's base2 [15:52] intrbiz: only multiplier > 1 that is lowercase [15:52] intrbiz: you mean the only non-fractional multiplyer [15:52] i'm in a really amusing situation, an old spare machine here has fried motherboard USB, so i can't hit BIOS POST screen key combos to install another OS [15:52] multiplier [15:52] multiipler rather than divisor [15:52] diddledan: Fractional multiplier ?! [15:52] oh [15:53] penguin42: e.g. 10^-3 [15:53] yes [15:53] m = 10^-3, u = 10^-6 [15:53] i.e. multiply by 10^-3 [15:53] k = 10^3, M = 10^6 [15:54] intrbiz: they're all multipliers [15:54] intrbiz: you don't divide by 10^-3 [15:54] 1 * 10^-3 = 1 / 10^3 [15:54] I did see the zeptolitre used for the 1st time a few days ago - that's a scary small number [15:54] penguin42: err... [15:55] fwiw, deca and hecto are lower-case positive too [15:55] diddledan: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn303767b [15:56]