[11:58] <zequence> Time to delete my Precise testing machines
[15:05] <zequence> Debian uses a CD size i386/amd64 hybrid as their installer
[15:06] <zequence> Would be easier for some people to have that
[15:12] <holstein> i like those
[15:12] <holstein> our iso is already so large, it likely doenst matter.. but folks complain about the disk size
[15:12] <holstein> there are folks in bandwidth restricted scenarios..
[15:16] <zequence> I started work on CD size. It wouldn't ship any of the workflows, but those would be available to install over the internet
[15:16] <zequence> cjwatson was helping me, but didn't want to bother him too much as he was having some trouble
[15:17] <zequence> I'm aiming at having that ready for the next LTS
[15:18] <zequence> This weekend I'm taking some time to set up some servers at my home for stuff like owncloud
[15:18] <zequence> Hoping to sync my Ubuntu phone with that. Still watiting for the phone though
[15:18] <zequence> No idea what happened to it, and BQ has only created a ticket so far
[15:19] <zequence> Well, I'll be syncing all my devices with it
[15:20] <zequence> Don't know how reliable spanish mail is. I know Italian mail is not to be trusted
[15:24] <holstein> i suppose, where you are not interested in discussing removing things, im not really keen on adding things
[15:25] <holstein> i would say, if a user were here, and actively asking for that, and willing to "go to the mat" for it, and be the major contributor to it, sure.. but otherwise, i dont know that we need another iso
[15:34] <zequence> holstein: As you yourself said, folks complain about bandwidth
[15:34] <zequence> The CD size has a clear purpose
[15:34] <zequence> Even for people who have good bandwidth, but do not want to install the whole thing
[15:35] <zequence> We need to redo the plugin for meta selection though.
[15:37] <holstein> sure.. so who is saying they will take care of it?
[15:37] <holstein> you?
[15:37] <holstein> i dont think its constructive to add another iso to our setup that the xubuntu team has to test
[15:37] <zequence> holstein: If you take a look at the sources, you will find that I already am
[15:38] <zequence> I'm the only one testing ISOs in this team currently, and if someone on the Xubuntu team chooses to help, that is up to them
[15:38] <zequence> holstein: Really? You who do absolutely nothing are telling me what I should do or not do
[15:38] <zequence> It's not up to you
[15:39] <zequence> I don't mind you having opinions. And I will always answer them
[15:40] <holstein> i didt say it is, or should be up to me
[15:40] <zequence> For the past two years I've been updating linux-lowlatency every three weeks, sometimes for three different releases
[15:40] <holstein> if you want to take it on, take it on, and you dont need my permission
[15:40] <zequence> I've also tested every single ISO
[15:40] <holstein> if you want to shape a team, you can ask the team
[15:41] <holstein> and im answering, thinking about resources.. and thats all
[15:41] <zequence> Who else knows better of the resources than me?
[15:41] <holstein> if you want to test another iso, thats great.. and i appreciate your work, as do lothers
[15:41] <holstein> if you want this to be all your show, thats fine.. but, it will likely lead to burn out
[15:42] <holstein> and, im still not at the point in my life where i can constructively do more than i do, which is really only support
[15:42] <zequence> And that's perfectly fine
[15:42] <holstein> so, im not offering to take on any responsiblity or work.. im only discussing the use of resources
[15:43] <zequence> And it's also fine to come and go, as many will do.
[15:43] <holstein> which, as far as specific code contribution, is just you and len
[15:44] <zequence> A new ISO is not that big of a deal to maintain. It's just one more file, and a couple more lines in the seeds
[15:44] <zequence> ..as long as the packages in the seeds are ok
[15:44] <holstein> sure.. enjoy!
[15:44] <holstein> but, its not a team decision, if, you just say "well, here a new thing that we have, that im going to maintain"..
[15:45] <zequence> First you need a team
[15:45] <zequence> One that actually knows what is going on
[15:45] <zequence> But, perhaps we will have that now again
[15:46] <zequence> And, I'm much better equipped to do my part as well, so I'm actually looking forward to the next year
[15:48] <zequence> Us being less active the past cycle was only a good thing I think
[15:48] <zequence> We should have more fresh energy for the next two cycles, and for the next LTS
[15:50] <zequence> The next version of Debian (9) should see a change in how realtime admnistration is handled
[15:50] <zequence> I will make sure that it will be really simple to have any Ubuntu flavor get a good working system for audio production, one way or the other
[15:51] <zequence> And, Ubuntu Studio will be a bonus
[15:51] <zequence> It is a good distro to have. It has everything in place already. And, that is something you can't get easily on other distros
[15:51] <zequence> But, the main goal is to make things work on anything Debian based (preferably) - at least that is my goal
[15:52] <zequence> The work I do for Ubuntu Studio is for making new users have as easy a time getting to know Linux + Multimedia production as possible
[15:52] <zequence> That in my view is the job that Ubuntu Studio should be doing
[15:53] <holstein> agreed
[15:53] <holstein> and, we have quite a negative image
[15:54] <zequence> Well, people choose to do what they do. Some people could actually help us, and Debian as a whole, if they wanted to. Instead they maintain PPAs
[15:54] <zequence> Or, their own custom Debian based distros
[15:55] <holstein> well, i think the question is, can they?
[15:55] <zequence> Sure
[15:55] <holstein> and if not, why? and if they just think not, why not?
[15:55] <zequence> But they don't want to
[15:55] <holstein> i know, falk cant upload what he does either place, AFAIK
[15:55] <holstein> i think upstream to debian would be ideal..
[15:55] <zequence> falktx could easily start maintaining Debian sources
[15:56] <holstein> i think its harder to do so, than just maintain ones own sources
[15:56] <zequence> You know how easy it was for me to become Debian Multimedia members?
[15:56] <holstein> and why? and where can  we step in and address that? 
[15:56] <zequence> I've talked to falktx about it. But, he's not interested
[15:56] <holstein> is it financial? the connonical funds are never going to make it to us, and thats fine.. but what about debian?
[15:57] <holstein> things that go upstream would trickle in.. if debian "just worked" out of the box, the way we needed, then, it would just work here
[15:57] <zequence> Yep
[15:57] <zequence> That's what I'm working on
[15:57] <holstein> but, then, you get to why we have a negative image in ardour
[15:57] <zequence> Though, it's not easy as far as realtime adminstration goes
[15:57] <holstein> we cant address that, unless we address rolling it, like firefox
[15:57] <holstein> but, then, what would get rolled, and why? and what would that break.. etc
[15:57] <zequence> Ardour people are talking about stuff that happened a millenia ago
[15:58] <zequence> IMO las and many others have no clue of why they are against buntu
[15:58] <holstein> well, if i dl fully supported ubuntu studio 14.04, the ardour version is not supported anywhere
[15:58] <zequence> They don't have any first hand experience themselves
[15:58] <holstein> we cant, and dont have the man power to support that older version without the help of las, and they dont support the older versions
[15:58] <zequence> For some reason they like Debian better, but all our packages are from Debian
[15:58] <holstein> so, is it constructive to *not* included it?
[15:58] <holstein> to link to where to buy the binary? i think thats  extreme
[15:59] <zequence> Could be for Ardour the best choice will be something like snappy
[15:59] <holstein> but, i would like to openly and constructively talk about these options, and realistic outcomes of such decisions..
[16:00] <holstein> unless, they, (ardour) dont use snappy, and something happens that gets blamed on that version
[16:00] <holstein> then, it would be the "snappy is crappy" story.. and its another -
[16:00] <holstein> but, i think that would constructively address keeping the versioning up to date
[16:01] <zequence> If you ask me, most of that is just a lod BS
[16:01] <holstein> not that i personally actually want/need a newer version, but, i think folks are used to that.. "you need the latest version for support".. thats pretty common
[16:01] <holstein> zequence: oh, i agree. but, i get it
[16:01] <holstein> "its not the current veresion".. its easier than supporting the issue
[16:01] <zequence> snappy would enable ardour to release the latest version
[16:02] <zequence> Trouble is, las prefers fedora, or something like that
[16:02] <holstein> which leads me to the larger issue of support in general
[16:03] <holstein> if a new ubuntustudio user running ardour has an issue, and goes to #ubuntustudio , which irc is already a niche, and the channel is dead/slow, then they go to #ardour, where, there decision to run ubuntustudio is immediately questions..
[16:03] <holstein> questioned
[16:03] <zequence> If you want to talk constructive, it would be more constructive for ardour people to stop trashing distros that they don't use, to stop using hearsay as a library of facts, and just focus on what they do well - namely coding ardour
[16:03] <holstein> i *did* get loud in #ardour, and i feel like the discussion is better.. way better
[16:03] <holstein> all it took was asking for facts, and stating that things had been addressed, and please stop the fud..
[16:03] <zequence> So much fud going on there
[16:04] <holstein> not a big deal.. but, it takes constant attention.. i feel someone would need to do the same in the forums etc where fud *is* still going on
[16:04] <holstein> and, there is still some fud in #ardour.. just not as bad..
[16:04] <zequence> I've been in there too sometimes, trying to steer things up, but it's tough
[16:04] <zequence> in #ardour that is
[16:04] <zequence> It was almost getting ridiculous at times
[16:05] <holstein> it takes a lot of time, for sure
[16:05] <holstein> its like baby sitting..
[16:05] <zequence> The best thing we can do is make sure our distro is the best there is. No one can say otherwise.
[16:05] <holstein> but, i would also like to look at the legitimate issues
[16:05] <zequence> For that to happen, we need to put some time into it. And he more who work, the better
[16:06] <holstein> why do folks like kxstudio or avlinux better? what are they able to do that we are not? what  would it take for falk to package for US, or debian?
[16:06] <zequence> again, falktx could easily package for Debian, but he doesn't
[16:06] <holstein> he was trying.. and it didnt pan out
[16:06] <zequence> Also, he could do SRUs for Ubuntu. He doesn't need to be a member of either UBuntu of Ubuntu Studio
[16:06] <zequence> But, he doesn't want to
[16:07] <zequence> I don't believe it
[16:07] <holstein> i dont know the details, but, i havent kept up, since i was discussing with him being a MOTU way back
[16:07] <holstein> i think its more work than he has time for, to actually do it properly
[16:07] <holstein> and thats understandable..
[16:07] <holstein> from both perspectives
[16:07] <zequence> If he wanted to customize Debian packages to some form that he himself personally liked best, then I'm sure there would be some problems
[16:07] <zequence> The work we do is not for ourselves, but for the community
[16:08] <holstein> but, if its a matter of getting 2 or 4 grand together to pay falk for a minute.. we could, as a community, have that discussion
[16:08] <zequence> falktx has had his anti-PA periods, for instance
[16:08] <holstein> well, many folks *still* have that
[16:08] <holstein> and i usually settle the argument by simply asking "when is the last time you used pulse?"
[16:09] <holstein> the user usually says "well, i dont.. its a pos".. and thats that.. they actually dont look at the options
[16:09] <zequence> If someone is not being very objective, their work might not be suitable for the larger masses
[16:09] <holstein> which is fine, but, that opinion can be disregared, at least, at that point.. since, the person has  not collected all the data
[16:09] <holstein> yup.. but, i think falk is *not* being objective.. but, that might be what the audio specific team would need
[16:10] <holstein> someone who is looking out for that work flow.. i dont know.. 
[16:10] <zequence> He has to compromize
[16:10] <holstein> sure.. but, now, he doenst
[16:10] <holstein> he can compromise the other way.. for the audio user
[16:10] <zequence> It's not his stule
[16:10] <zequence> style*
[16:10] <holstein> and thats handy.. but, i dont think its the only way
[16:11] <holstein> seems like there is something more down the middle.. or, with the tools that you are len discuss.. the settings that can tweak what is needed..
[16:11] <zequence> -controls can help
[16:11] <zequence> I've actually come a far way with it
[16:11] <zequence> It's too bad it's taking such a long time
[16:11] <holstein> seems like, it really could be a place where settings can address what is needed to fix things..
[16:12] <zequence> falktx would be better at coding it, but I think we are better at figuring out the layout
[16:12] <holstein> sure.. i want him putting code in as far upstream as possible, personally
[16:12] <zequence> Not one of his packages are in Debian yet
[16:12] <zequence> I mean, applications
[16:13] <zequence> There is one attempt at packaging his suite, but don't know how far that has come
[16:13] <zequence> He won't do it himself anyway
[16:13] <holstein> well, i think it may be constructive to try and have that talk.. and see what that takes
[16:13] <zequence> Sure
[16:14] <holstein> there is an ubuntu debian liason..
[16:14] <holstein> i forget who that is.. but, its an ubuntu team member i just heard in an interview
[16:14] <zequence> universe is mostly Debian. It's what we stand on
[16:14] <holstein> and, i cant imagine that changing, correct? what do you think
[16:14] <holstein> i dont think snappy will change that..
[16:14] <holstein> *if* snappy even comes to the desktop space where we are..
[16:15] <zequence> Snappy is just another tool. As long as Ubuntu remains open, what was will still be
[16:15] <zequence> But, if Ubuntu does start to change, it will be very easy to jump ships for all the flavors
[16:15] <zequence> Debian is another world as far as the community goes though
[16:16] <zequence> I feel the Ubuntu community is in many ways a lot more constructive
[16:16] <zequence> I'm sure it depends largely on who you are and what you do
[16:16] <holstein> well, debian would still be there, but, the ubuntustuduio flavor, if main ubuntu would move away, would be quite changed
[16:16] <zequence> We could do the same thing, but in Debian
[16:16] <zequence> Though, it wouldn't be the same of course
[16:17] <holstein> but, i really dont think thats in the pipeline
[16:17] <holstein> well, it would be *much* different, though
[16:17] <holstein> not having a scheduled release to push
[16:17] <zequence> We are still we. If we continue to work on the same project, much will remain the same
[16:17] <holstein> not having iso hosting.. etc
[16:17] <zequence> Debian does 2 years LTS releases. They are calling them LTS now
[16:18] <holstein> i mean, sure. we are still us, but, with a lot of bandwidth and a brand name..
[16:18] <zequence> every 2 years
[16:18] <zequence> Then there's the rolling release
[16:18] <zequence> Not much of a difference
[16:18] <zequence> The infrastucture would need to be set up
[16:18] <zequence> That's a bit of work
[16:18] <zequence> But, it's far from doable
[16:21] <zequence> Debian Multimedia is a much different beast from how we do things
[16:21] <zequence> They do mostly packagin. Not so much work on the big picture, so to speak
[16:22] <zequence> I think that's a result of decentralization. Has it's + and -
[16:26] <holstein> im just saying, it would change things.. since, we would have to self host iso's, etc..
[16:27] <zequence> Either that, or we find a way to be an official Debian variant
[16:32] <zequence> ..though it's good to think about options, that's of course not something we need to worry about for the next year or so
[16:33] <holstein> maybe not at all
[19:24] <cub> just read through the irc log, so Ardour people don't like Ubunbu Studio? How come? Why would they care since you can run Ardour in any linux distro?
[19:25] <holstein> cub: factually, its hard for them to support
[19:25] <holstein> they dont support the version, other than the one they support.. so, if the typical user has an issue with ardour, they are running the repo version, which is repackaged ,and out of date
[19:25] <cub> aha ok
[19:26] <cub> But wouldn't that be the same for every distro which is not rolling release?
[19:26] <cub> you still have the option to install the latest version yourself
[19:27] <cub> And that would kind of be Ubuntu's fault, not US per se
[19:27] <cub> since we only include what's in the repos
[19:28] <holstein> cub: yup.. it is the same
[19:28] <holstein> but, i think ubuntustuduio is just the more popular one that folks go to #ardour about
[19:30] <cub> sure, since if you want to do audio it's one of the easy choices
[19:32] <cub> which version did make it into US 15.04?
[19:33] <holstein> !info ardour
[19:33] <holstein> looks relatively new..
[19:33] <holstein> but, its not the one they support
[19:34] <cub> !info kdenlive
[19:37] <cub> it would be nice to do some work with the community, but not sure how much time I will have available.
[19:45] <DalekSec> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-multimedia-maintainers/2015-April/043650.html bit of a thread on it.